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Bob O'H



Posts: 2194
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:21   

Quote
But evolutionary biology has never been just about the science. Why else would there be such a heated debate over it?

It's not because evolutionary biology has never been just about the science, it's because creationism has never been just about the science.  You've managed to spot the wrong culprit in a short-list of two.

Quote
I'm not saying they should be held to a different standard. I'm saying exactly the opposite. Just as Christians can't gloss over the fact that Hitler used elements of Christianity to justify his actions, neither can proponents of Darwinian evolution gloss over the fact that Hitler did the same with this theory. As for Luther's influence on Hitler's anti-semitism, there's no need to explain it away. It's patently clear. No one is saying Darwinian science inspired Hitler's anti-semitism, he just used it to provide a scientific justification for what he believed.

So how did Crossroads, a film about the relationship between science and religion, only discuss the effects of science on Hitler, and not religion?  Or was that part expunged after the script was written?

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It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:21   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,13:54)
I'm not saying they should be held to a different standard. I'm saying exactly the opposite. Just as Christians can't gloss over the fact that Hitler used elements of Christianity to justify his actions, neither can proponents of Darwinian evolution gloss over the fact that Hitler did the same with this theory. As for Luther's influence on Hitler's anti-semitism, there's no need to explain it away. It's patently clear. No one is saying Darwinian science inspired Hitler's anti-semitism, he just used it to provide a scientific justification for what he believed.

But, you are holding them to a different standard.  You are using Hitler's supposed misuse of science as a cudgel against scientists and scientific concepts you don't like, while handwaving away the influence of religion.  If you were to hold science to the same standard as religion vis-a-vis Nazism, you wouldn't have a movie.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:24   

Quote (carlsonjok @ April 07 2008,14:21)
Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,13:54)
I'm not saying they should be held to a different standard. I'm saying exactly the opposite. Just as Christians can't gloss over the fact that Hitler used elements of Christianity to justify his actions, neither can proponents of Darwinian evolution gloss over the fact that Hitler did the same with this theory. As for Luther's influence on Hitler's anti-semitism, there's no need to explain it away. It's patently clear. No one is saying Darwinian science inspired Hitler's anti-semitism, he just used it to provide a scientific justification for what he believed.

But, you are holding them to a different standard.  You are using Hitler's supposed misuse of science as a cudgel against scientists and scientific concepts you don't like, while handwaving away the influence of religion.  If you were to hold science to the same standard as religion vis-a-vis Nazism, you wouldn't have a movie.

You wouldn't have a [Fundy] audience, is closer to the truth, I suspect...

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
stevestory



Posts: 10392
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:26   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,13:49)
Because what I've observed over the past two years is complete polarization. The various camps sit in their respective corners cackling about how stupid the other guys are, but they rarely talk to each other—except to hurl insults. Very few people engaged in this debate seem open to an honest pursuit of the truth. Most are more interested in scoring debating points, looking clever, and promoting their own agenda.

He says this, then goes to his typewriter and types "Darwin makes Nazis eat your babies!!!!1111"

What a piece of work.

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:27   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ April 07 2008,14:09)
Quote (Richardthughes @ April 07 2008,14:07)
 
Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,14:03)
Rich: Whether or not Hitler ever mentioned Darwin is completely beside the point. His writings and speeches are rife with Darwinian language and ideas.

Darwinian language and ideas! Really. Natural selection, not artificial selection, which predates Darwin by millenia?

Link me up, Kevin!! I'll have a look!

Strange how he does all that without saying "Darwin". Still arguing to phantom consequences? Even if your Hitler-Darwin link was true, would that make NDE any less real?

Ooh, I found the quote Kevin's talking about, on page 926 of Mein Kampf:

"Since I am an atheist, when I come into power in Germany in 11 years, I will kill all the Jews. In this I am merely following the orders of that English guy who wrote that Origin of Species book. Unfortunately I can't remember his name right now, but you know who I mean."

Arden - Good, solid research work.

And in MY copy of Mein Kampf, presented to me with my Anthropology Degree, by The Darwinista Cabal, on Page 927, Hitler writes about a eugenic experiment he would have his Darwinian followers perform, involving a goat, a couple of gerbils and a Certain "Mrs XXXX Miller."

In one of the few humorous moments in the book, Hitler really opens up and shows his lighter side when "poking it to the chimp-boy Kevin" that would be the result of his influence by his favorite English author D___.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
JohnW



Posts: 2834
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:29   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,11:54)
Carlsonjok said, "Your mission, if you choose to accept it, is to explain why the integration of overtly Christian language into Hitler's speeches and writings should be held to a different standard to the far more scattered and oblique references to evolution.  For bonus points, explain away the influence of the virulently anti-semitic Martin Luther."

I'm not saying they should be held to a different standard. I'm saying exactly the opposite. Just as Christians can't gloss over the fact that Hitler used elements of Christianity to justify his actions, neither can proponents of Darwinian evolution gloss over the fact that Hitler did the same with this theory. As for Luther's influence on Hitler's anti-semitism, there's no need to explain it away. It's patently clear. No one is saying Darwinian science inspired Hitler's anti-semitism, he just used it to provide a scientific justification for what he believed.

But you are holding them to a different standard.

You are saying (as, I gather, is Weikard) that Hitler mentions evolution, therefore evolution is an indispensible part of Hitler's worldview, and therefore the Holocaust is Darwin's fault.  Hitler's much more extensive use of Christian language and ideas, however, is not held to the same standard - it does not mean that it's also Jesus' fault*.


* In case it's not clear, I don't think it's Jesus' fault either.  Christianity, like the theory of evolution, has been cited as justification for everything from fascism to laissez-faire capitalism to communism to anarchism.  What that says to me is that both Christianity and evolution say nothing at all about politics.  People take out of them exactly what they brought in.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:30   

Quote (Richardthughes @ April 07 2008,14:14)
 
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ April 07 2008,14:09)
   
Quote (Richardthughes @ April 07 2008,14:07)
   
Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,14:03)
Rich: Whether or not Hitler ever mentioned Darwin is completely beside the point. His writings and speeches are rife with Darwinian language and ideas.

Darwinian language and ideas! Really. Natural selection, not artificial selection, which predates Darwin by millenia?

Link me up, Kevin!! I'll have a look!

Strange how he does all that without saying "Darwin". Still arguing to phantom consequences? Even if your Hitler-Darwin link was true, would that make NDE any less real?

Ooh, I found the quote Kevin's talking about, on page 926 of Mein Kampf:

"Since I am an atheist, when I come into power in Germany in 11 years, I will kill all the Jews. In this I am merely following the orders of that English guy who wrote that Origin of Species book. Unfortunately I can't remember his name right now, but you know who I mean."




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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
kevinmillerxi



Posts: 92
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:33   

Albatrossity said, "But none of them are scientists; most of them are religionists like yourself, with a minimal yet twisted concept of what science is all about."

Is this how you would describe PZ Myers, Richard Dawkins, Will Provine and Eugenie Scott?

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:35   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,14:33)
Albatrossity said, "But none of them are scientists; most of them are religionists like yourself, with a minimal yet twisted concept of what science is all about."

Is this how you would describe PZ Myers, Richard Dawkins, Will Provine and Eugenie Scott?

You're dodging an awful lot of questions, Kevin.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
kevinmillerxi



Posts: 92
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:36   

Thank you for the links, Wes. I will definitely have a look.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:36   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ April 07 2008,14:35)
Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,14:33)
Albatrossity said, "But none of them are scientists; most of them are religionists like yourself, with a minimal yet twisted concept of what science is all about."

Is this how you would describe PZ Myers, Richard Dawkins, Will Provine and Eugenie Scott?

You're dodging an awful lot of questions, Kevin.

Darwin ----> "Darwinist Language" ---> Hitler?

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
kevinmillerxi



Posts: 92
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:37   

Rich: Always with the question-dodging.

  
stevestory



Posts: 10392
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:38   

Quote (Louis @ April 07 2008,15:14)
Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,20:03)
Rich: Whether or not Hitler ever mentioned Darwin is completely beside the point. His writings and speeches are rife with Darwinian language and ideas.

Nature red in tooth and claw precedes Darwin, precedes modern evolutionary biology even.

You knew that, right?

Oh wait, this isn't about facts for you is it, it's about implications, or rather the implications YOU see as being present. Heard of the Is/Ought fallacy? Look it up.

Louis

Any decent Philosophy of Science class would do Kevin a world of good and prevent him from making embarrassing mistakes.

   
Thought Provoker



Posts: 530
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:39   

Hi Kevin,

Something I would like to emphasize for you to address.

Do you understand Glen's point that eugenics clearly preceded Darwin?

The Spartans threw deformed babies off a cliff for the purpose of improving the quality of their soldiers.

Is this the kind of implied "Darwinism" you are painting the Nazi's with?

How are you so certain Nazism was influenced by more than simple the eugenics practiced by Spartans and dog groomers for centuries when Hitler made no reference to Darwin or his research?

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:40   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,14:37)
Rich: Always with the question-dodging.

Do you have an answer for me as to how you rationalize your promoters lying to 'undesirables' to keep them away from your movie, and how this squares with Christianity?

Do you have an answer for why you blame Darwinism for the Holocaust, but not Luther or Christianity?

Didn't think so.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:40   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,14:37)
Rich: Always with the question-dodging.

You've never answered any question in a comprehensive way, Kevin.

"See the film!"
"Some other church-Tard told me! Take it up with him"
"We have the same epistemological issues!"
"Yes, I knew about that already, it just didn't make the final cut!"


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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:42   

Quote (stevestory @ April 07 2008,14:38)
Any decent Philosophy of Science class would do Kevin a world of good and prevent him from making embarrassing mistakes.

Embarrassing at 1000 theatres near you!

Like all of ID, its about moving product to Fundies, not searching for anything of meaning.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2137
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:42   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,11:38)
Carlsonjok: I'm not trying to duck a bullet here; you are. I believe Weikart's arguments linking Darwinian science to Hitler's ethics are credible. Rather than stand and mock, study them for yourself and then offer a reasoned response.

You have very arrogantly assumed we have not read Weikart’s trash book.  I have it on my lap at the moment I write this.  It is so full of crap I could fertilize a cornfield with it.  But in order to know this you would actually need to read the original authors Weikart misrepresented, Darwin not the least, but dozens of others.  Even recent historians such as Robert Proctor are misrepresented by Weikart.

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:44   

I think Kevin is going to re-play the famous gambit of The Sgt Schultz Defense:  I Know Nothing!  Ask The Producers!



edited

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:44   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ April 07 2008,14:40)
Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,14:37)
Rich: Always with the question-dodging.

Do you have an answer for me as to how you rationalize your promoters lying to 'undesirables' to keep them away from your movie, and how this squares with Christianity?

Do you have an answer for why you blame Darwinism for the Holocaust, but not Luther or Christianity?

Didn't think so.

Let me help, Arden.



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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Quidam



Posts: 229
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:46   

Quote (JohnW @ April 07 2008,13:29)
You are saying (as, I gather, is Weikard) that Hitler mentions evolution, therefore evolution is an indispensible part of Hitler's worldview, and therefore the Holocaust is Darwin's fault.  

I don't think Hitler ever mentioned Evolution or Darwin  in any writings or speeches. Please prove me wrong.

Whatever 'Darwinian language' there may be it has to be imagined into his works. Simple assertions that talk of racial purity and weakening bllodlines is not 'Darwinian language',  it is Biblical language:
Quote
Ezra
9:1 Now when these things were done, the princes came to me, saying, The people of Israel, and the priests, and the Levites, have not separated themselves from the people of the lands, doing according to their abominations, even of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites.  
9:2 For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the holy seed have mingled themselves with the people of those lands: yea, the hand of the princes and rulers hath been chief in this trespass
...
9:11 Which thou hast commanded by thy servants the prophets, saying, The land, unto which ye go to possess it, is an unclean land with the filthiness of the people of the lands, with their abominations, which have filled it from one end to another with their uncleanness.  
9:12 Now therefore give not your daughters unto their sons, neither take their daughters unto your sons, nor seek their peace or their wealth for ever: that ye may be strong, and eat the good of the land, and leave it for an inheritance to your children for ever.


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The organized fossils ... and their localities also, may be understood by all, even the most illiterate. William Smith, Strata. 1816

  
Occam's Aftershave



Posts: 1788
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:54   

Quote
I'm not saying they should be held to a different standard. I'm saying exactly the opposite. Just as Christians can't gloss over the fact that Hitler used elements of Christianity to justify his actions, neither can proponents of Darwinian evolution gloss over the fact that Hitler did the same with this theory.

Hitler used high explosives and poison gas too.  Why isn't Expelled going after those nasty chemists and their atomic theory of chemistry?

 
Quote
As for Luther's influence on Hitler's anti-semitism, there's no need to explain it away. It's patently clear. No one is saying Darwinian science inspired Hitler's anti-semitism, he just used it to provide a scientific justification for what he believed.

The Unabomber used the industrial revolution as a scientific justification for his murders.  Does that mean the industrial revolution is evil and wrong, and that we should go back to the 1700's?

Why do you think the misapplication of a scientific theory for nefarious purposes somehow invalidates the theory itself?

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"Science is what got us to the humble place we’re at, and what hard-won progress we might realize comes from science, with ID completely flaccid, religious apologetics bitching from the sidelines." - Eigenstate at UD

  
stevestory



Posts: 10392
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:55   

Quote (Richardthughes @ April 07 2008,15:42)
Quote (stevestory @ April 07 2008,14:38)
Any decent Philosophy of Science class would do Kevin a world of good and prevent him from making embarrassing mistakes.

Embarrassing at 1000 theatres near you!

Like all of ID, its about moving product to Fundies, not searching for anything of meaning.

Yeah, you're probably right, I was just trying to give Kevin the benefit of the doubt and assume he has no understanding of science, philosophy, or 1,000 years of Europeans murdering Jews, not that he did and is just lying.

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:57   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,14:33)
Albatrossity said, "But none of them are scientists; most of them are religionists like yourself, with a minimal yet twisted concept of what science is all about."

Is this how you would describe PZ Myers, Richard Dawkins, Will Provine and Eugenie Scott?

Sorry kevintyleven, you'll need to bring those goalposts back over here.

Show me where one of those says, as you claimed in this comment, that "science explains everything".

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Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:57   

Quote (carlsonjok @ April 07 2008,14:44)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ April 07 2008,14:40)
 
Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,14:37)
Rich: Always with the question-dodging.

Do you have an answer for me as to how you rationalize your promoters lying to 'undesirables' to keep them away from your movie, and how this squares with Christianity?

Do you have an answer for why you blame Darwinism for the Holocaust, but not Luther or Christianity?

Didn't think so.

Let me help, Arden.


This whole debate is much clearer with three lolcats.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
BopDiddy



Posts: 71
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,15:02   

Ok, here's me trying to piece this all together in my mind.

(My bolding)

       
Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,13:54)
As for Luther's influence on Hitler's anti-semitism, there's no need to explain it away. It's patently clear. No one is saying Darwinian science inspired Hitler's anti-semitism,


         
Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,13:43)
But evolutionary biology has never been just about the science. Why else would there be such a heated debate over it? All scientific theories and philosophies have consequences, intended or otherwise. So you can't just pretend like the connection doesn't exist. Hitler isn't the only one to pick up on the ethical implications of Darwinism. They were evident to Darwin himself and everyone else who initially heard his theory.


Assuming an honest and objective genesis to these statements, I can only conclude that they're saying "Hitler used Darwin's theories as an excuse and justification for his actions" and clearly not (given the top quote) "Hitler was inspired by Darwin's theories to attempt genocide."  If my conclusion is wrong, then I ask Kevin how I should reconcile his comments.

If my conclusion is right, and Hitler used whatever conceptual tools available to justify his actions, it directly follows (with ample evidence, as well as the remainder of the top quote) that Martin Luther was just as "responsible" for Hitler's actions as Darwin was.

I must have misinterpreted Kevin, though, otherwise there's simply no reason for all the Nazi stuff to be in the movie.  What point is being made with the Nazi clips, then? Please unconfuse me.

  
Thought Provoker



Posts: 530
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,15:10   

For what it is worth, I apologize for not giving more credit to others for the...

Eugenics DOES-NOT-EQUAL Darwinism

...point.  While I'm partial to my Spartans throwing babies off cliffs example, I can see that many people have pointed this out to Kevin which he has ignored.

I suggest Louis may have the best approach, recognize a troll as a troll.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,15:11   

This one must have been Darwin's fault, it was in England and everything:

Quote
Massacres at London and York (1189–1190)
Richard I had taken the cross before his coronation (September 3, 1189). A number of the principal Jews of England presented themselves to do homage at Westminster; but there appears to have been a superstition against Jews being admitted to such a holy ceremony, and they were repulsed during the banquet which followed the coronation. The rumour spread from Westminster to the City of London that the king had ordered a massacre of the Jews; and a mob in Old Jewry, after vainly attacking throughout the day the strong stone houses of the Jews, set them on fire at night, killing those within who attempted to escape. The king was enraged at this insult to his royal dignity, but took no steps to punish the offenders, owing to their large numbers. After his departure on the crusade, riots with loss of life occurred at Lynn, where the Jews attempted to attack a baptised coreligionist who had taken refuge in a church. The seafaring population rose against them, fired their houses, and put them to the sword. So, too, at Stamford fair, on March 7, 1190, many were slain, and on March 18 fifty-seven were slaughtered at Bury St. Edmunds. The Jews of Lincoln saved themselves only by taking refuge in a castle.

Isolated attacks on Jews occurred also at Colchester, Thetford, and Ospringe, but the most striking incident occurred at York on the night of March 16 (the day of the Jewish feast of Shabbat ha-Gadol, the shabbat before Passover) and March 17, 1190. The Jews of York were alarmed by the preceding massacres and by the setting on fire of several of their houses by the anti-Jewish rioting in the wake of religious fervor during crusaders' preparations for the Third Crusade against the Saracens, led by Richard.
Their leader Josce asked the warden of York Castle to receive them with their wives and children, and they were accepted into Clifford's Tower. However, the tower was besieged by the mob of crusaders, demanding that the Jews convert to Christianity and be baptized. Trapped in the castle, the Jews were advised by their religious leader, Rabbi Yomtov of Joigney, to kill themselves rather than convert; Josce began the self-immolation by slaying his wife Anna and his two children, and then was killed by Yomtov. The father of each family killed his wife and children, and then Yomtob stabbed the men before killing himself. The handful of Jews who did not kill themselves surrendered to the crusaders at daybreak on March 17, leaving the castle on a promise that they would not be harmed; they were also killed. In the aftermath the wooden tower was burnt down.


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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Venus Mousetrap



Posts: 201
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,15:11   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,14:01)
Venus: Thanks for taking my questions seriously. I have a question about your second response:

You said, "There isn't anything to stop God throwing lightning bolts or inseminating women. Science doesn't rule that out - it just says we can't study it, because we can't repeat observations. You have mixed up 'science cannot describe this' with 'this does not happen'. No one says science explains everything. It doesn't."

Actually, lots of people say science explains everything. That's why we have no need for God. But that's beside the point. If God does influence this world, is this influence measureable in any scientific way? If not, how can it be detected? I'm really interested to hear from anyone who approaches this from a theistic position.

Who is saying science explains everything? Not scientists, that's for sure, and they would know. I know Ben Stein is saying that evolutionary science should explain everything up to and including the origin of the universe, so perhaps you should stop listening to him.

There isn't any reason why we couldn't see the effects of God's action on the natural world, but God is not a scientific phenomenon and we can't describe him that way, any more than we can model the likelihood of students coming into fields with planks and making crop circles. The question doesn't make sense really.

  
Cheezits



Posts: 6
Joined: April 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,15:44   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,14:43)
Louis said, "I wonder if Kevin knows how much Hitler was influenced by christianity, and just how irrelevant to the factual accuracy of either evolutionary biology or christianity such "arguments" are."

I'm fully aware of how Hitler was influenced by christianity, enough to know that he fully rejected Christian ethics as weak and unnatural. His overriding ethic was that only the strongest should be allowed to survive. That was the rule of nature, so we should do everything possible to help evolution along. How does this bear on the factual accuracy of evolutionary biology? Not at all. But evolutionary biology has never been just about the science. Why else would there be such a heated debate over it? All scientific theories and philosophies have consequences, intended or otherwise. So you can't just pretend like the connection doesn't exist. Hitler isn't the only one to pick up on the ethical implications of Darwinism. They were evident to Darwin himself and everyone else who initially heard his theory.

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,14:43)
But evolutionary biology has never been just about the science. Why else would there be such a heated debate over it?


Because scientifically illiterate fundies can't understand it and can't cope with the truth.  They've had it drummed into them by their pastors that if evolution is true then God can't exist and their lives have no meaning.  Don't blame biologists for making fundies believe they can't live without their fairy tale version of God!

  
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