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Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,13:36   

Quote (ERV @ April 07 2008,19:23)
Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,13:15)
As I've said elsewhere, Expelled didn't invent these arguments. So if you want to quibble over them, I direct you to the people who make them in our film.

You dont know who made your animation, you dont make any arguments about Darwin-->Hitler, you were just a writer, you didnt have anything to do with promoting the film, etc etc etc...

LOL! PARA-DIG-UM FAIL!

Not that I would ever suggest a Nazi connection but I do wonder if Kevin was just following orders? ;-)

I wonder if Kevin knows how much Hitler was influenced by christianity, and just how irrelevant to the factual accuracy of either evolutionary biology or christianity such "arguments" are. I wonder a lot of things like this.

Louis

P.S. You think in LOLSpeak? I'd love to claim that's a bad thing but I had a dream in LOLSpeak the other night where I was discussing something with the guy I did my PhD with, so I'm going to go all out and claim this makes you a genius. Also "I has (a) you" has become something of a deliberately nauseating catchphrase at work. This one, at least, is not my fault. The endless repetions of  "where are caek DAMMIT" might be though. I'm working out how to fit it into my annual review. I foresee: EPIC FAIL! lol

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Bye.

  
kevinmillerxi



Posts: 92
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,13:38   

Carlsonjok: I'm not trying to duck a bullet here; you are. I believe Weikart's arguments linking Darwinian science to Hitler's ethics are credible. Rather than stand and mock, study them for yourself and then offer a reasoned response.

  
Shirley Knott



Posts: 148
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,13:41   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,13:28)
JohnW said, "If you're claiming that Darwinian science and philosophy was the primary, or even a major, influence on his ideas, I'd like to see some evidence."

I'd highly recommend you read Richard Weikart's book, "From Darwin to Hitler." In it, Weikart presents loads of evidence that Darwinian science had a significant influence on Hitler.

"And on a related note, what are the "logical ethical conclusions" of Darwinian science?"

Essentially, that humans are not qualitatively different from any other animal, that ethics and morals only exist in the human mind, that they are merely evolutionary adaptations as opposed to universal truths, etc. Weikart goes into full detail on this in his book as well.

What about the pernicious effect of Lutheranism on Hitler?
Considerably stronger than Darwinism, and much much easier to document.

As to your ridiculous point about the "ethical implications" of Darwinism being that "ethics and morality are all in the mind", I, for one, would love to see a logical argument that starts from Darwin's work and finds any way at all to bring ethics into mind.
And then explain why this is true, in your world, for ethics, but not for the absolute truth of, oh, say, 2+2=4, or pi aproximates 3.14159.
Do please try, it is your argument, pitiful tho it may be, and it should be elaborated on and defended, or dropped as the poxy whore-son babble that it truly is.

no hugs for thugs,
Shirley Knott
any one of whose professors would have eviscerated her for such an absurd claim as KW's

  
kevinmillerxi



Posts: 92
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,13:43   

Louis said, "I wonder if Kevin knows how much Hitler was influenced by christianity, and just how irrelevant to the factual accuracy of either evolutionary biology or christianity such "arguments" are."

I'm fully aware of how Hitler was influenced by christianity, enough to know that he fully rejected Christian ethics as weak and unnatural. His overriding ethic was that only the strongest should be allowed to survive. That was the rule of nature, so we should do everything possible to help evolution along. How does this bear on the factual accuracy of evolutionary biology? Not at all. But evolutionary biology has never been just about the science. Why else would there be such a heated debate over it? All scientific theories and philosophies have consequences, intended or otherwise. So you can't just pretend like the connection doesn't exist. Hitler isn't the only one to pick up on the ethical implications of Darwinism. They were evident to Darwin himself and everyone else who initially heard his theory.

  
JohnW



Posts: 2834
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,13:43   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,11:28)
JohnW said, "If you're claiming that Darwinian science and philosophy was the primary, or even a major, influence on his ideas, I'd like to see some evidence."

I'd highly recommend you read Richard Weikart's book, "From Darwin to Hitler." In it, Weikart presents loads of evidence that Darwinian science had a significant influence on Hitler.

"And on a related note, what are the "logical ethical conclusions" of Darwinian science?"

Essentially, that humans are not qualitatively different from any other animal, that ethics and morals only exist in the human mind, that they are merely evolutionary adaptations as opposed to universal truths, etc. Weikart goes into full detail on this in his book as well.

Explain why it would be worth my while, Kevin. †Tell me about the loads of evidence. †Given that Weikard is a DI fellow, and the Discovery Institute's record of integrity and accuracy is something less than stellar, I'm not going to devote time and/or money to this without a good reason to do so.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4902
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,13:46   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,13:38)
Carlsonjok: I'm not trying to duck a bullet here; you are. I believe Weikart's arguments linking Darwinian science to Hitler's ethics are credible. Rather than stand and mock, study them for yourself and then offer a reasoned response.

I thought I just got through offering Kevin an opportunity to do exactly that with respect to a claim he made concerning the fossil record. I seem to recall being thoroughly snubbed on that.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,13:46   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,13:38)
Carlsonjok: I'm not trying to duck a bullet here; you are. I believe Weikart's arguments linking Darwinian science to Hitler's ethics are credible. Rather than stand and mock, study them for yourself and then offer a reasoned response.

Actually, you pretty much ducked right into the punch. I was alluding to the influence of Christian thought on Hitler, but you apparently are a bit slow to catch on.  Never let it be said I am not a generous sort, so allow me to state that "Gott Mit Uns" is, as you might expect, German for "God is with us" and was found on SS belt buckles.  

So, your mission, if you choose to accept it (and I am willing to bet you won't) is to explain why the integration of overtly Christian language into Hitler's speeches and writings should be held to a different standard to the far more scattered and oblique references to evolution.  For bonus points, explain away the influence of the virulently anti-semitic Martin Luther.

For more info, see here

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it. †We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
kevinmillerxi



Posts: 92
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,13:48   

JohnW: I understand your skepticism re: Weikart. I was skeptical when I picked up the book as well. And Weikart, himself, was skeptical when he started down the road to researching the topic. And in no way does he draw a direct line from Darwin to Hitler or say that Darwinian science was the defining influence on Hitler's ethics. Hitler's influences are complicated and difficult to trace, but there's no doubt that Darwinian science was a significant factor. Just where or how he imbibed these ideas is still not quite clear. The book is well researched and well substantiated by quotes from original sources as well as other scholarly works on the topic. This is not a shrill tome that's bent on proving Wiekart's thesis no matter what. I do believe it is a fair and balanced treatment of the evidence.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,13:50   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,13:43)
Louis said, "I wonder if Kevin knows how much Hitler was influenced by christianity, and just how irrelevant to the factual accuracy of either evolutionary biology or christianity such "arguments" are."

I'm fully aware of how Hitler was influenced by christianity, enough to know that he fully rejected Christian ethics as weak and unnatural. His overriding ethic was that only the strongest should be allowed to survive. That was the rule of nature, so we should do everything possible to help evolution along. How does this bear on the factual accuracy of evolutionary biology? Not at all. But evolutionary biology has never been just about the science. Why else would there be such a heated debate over it? All scientific theories and philosophies have consequences, intended or otherwise. So you can't just pretend like the connection doesn't exist. Hitler isn't the only one to pick up on the ethical implications of Darwinism. They were evident to Darwin himself and everyone else who initially heard his theory.

Quotes from Adolf Hitler Expressing Belief & Faith in God


Adolf Hitler had Faith in God that His Agenda was Divinely Ordained If Adolf Hitler was an atheist, why did he keep saying that he believed in God, had faith in God, and was convinced that he was doing God's work? Adolf Hitler was not just certain that his attacks on Jews were divinely mandated, but also his efforts to clamp down on society by restoring traditional morality. Christian apologists only seem to claim that Hitler was an atheist because they cannot handle the idea that a Christian theist would cause so much evil in the name of their God.


1. Adolf Hitler: Acting According to God's Will


I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.


- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2


2. Adolf Hitler: Thanking God


Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time.


- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 5


3. Adolf Hitler: Deutschland ‹ber Alles


I had so often sung 'Deutschland Łber Alles' and shouted 'Heil' at the top of my lungs, that it seemed to me almost a belated act of grace to be allowed to stand as a witness in the divine court of the eternal judge and proclaim the sincerity of this conviction.


- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 5


4. Adolf Hitler: God's Grace Smiles


Once again the songs of the fatherland roared to the heavens along the endless marching columns, and for the last time the Lord's grace smiled on His ungrateful children.


- Adolf Hitler reflecting on World War I, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 7


5. Adolf Hitler: Fulfilling God's Mission


What we have to fight for is the necessary security for the existence and increase of our race and people, the subsistence of its children and the maintenance of our racial stock unmixed, the freedom and independence of the Fatherland; so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator.


- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 8


6. Adolf Hitler: Fate of God


But if out of smugness, or even cowardice, this battle is not fought to its end, then take a look at the peoples five hundred years from now. I think you will find but few images of God, unless you want to profane the Almighty.


- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 10


7. Adolf Hitler: Sin Against the Will of God


In short, the results of miscegenation are always the following: (a) The level of the superior race becomes lowered; (b) physical and mental degeneration sets in, thus leading slowly but steadily towards a progressive drying up of the vital sap. The act which brings about such a development is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator. And as a sin this act will be avenged.


- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 11


8. Adolf Hitler: Sacrilege Against God


Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise.


- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 1


9. Adolf Hitler: Confidence in God


Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the fight for the 'remaking' of the Reich as they call it.


- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 1


10. Adolf Hitler: Gold has Replaced God


It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god.


- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 2


11. Adolf Hitler: Sin Against the Will of God


It doesn't dawn on this depraved bourgeois world that this is positively a sin against all reason; that it is criminal lunacy to keep on drilling a born half-ape until people think they have made a lawyer out of him, while millions of members of the highest culture-race must remain in entirely unworthy positions; that it is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator if His most gifted beings by the hundreds and hundreds of thousands are allowed to degenerate in the present proletarian morass, while Hottentots and Zulu Kaffirs are trained for intellectual professions.


- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 2


12. Adolf Hitler: Creation of God


That this is possible may not be denied in a world where hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people voluntarily submit to celibacy, obligated and bound by nothing except the injunction of the Church. Should the same renunciation not be possible if this injunction is replaced by the admonition finally to put an end to the constant and continuous original sin of racial poisoning, and to give the Almighty Creator beings such as He Himself created?


- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 2


13. Adolf Hitler: Don't Just Talk About Fulfilling God's Will


The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will.


- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 10


14. Adolf Hitler: Doing Justice to God


To do justice to God and our own conscience, we have turned once more to the German Volk.


- Adolf Hitler in speech about the need for a moral regeneration of German, February 10, 1933


15. Adolf Hitler: Going Where God Wills


I go the way that Providence dictates with the assurance of a sleepwalker.


- Adolf Hitler, Speech, March 15, 1936, Munich, Germany


16. Adolf Hitler: May God Bless Us


May divine providence bless us with enough courage and enough determination to perceive within ourselves this holy German space.


- Adolf Hitler, Speech, March 24, 1933


17. Adolf Hitler: When We Appear Before God...


We don't ask the Almighty, 'Lord, make us free!" We want to be active, to work, to work together, so that when the hour comes that we appear before the Lord we can say to him: 'Lord, you see that we have changed.' The German people is no longer a people of dishonor and shame, of self-destructiveness and cowardice. No, Lord, the German people is once more strong in spirit, strong in determination, strong in the willingness to bear every sacrifice. Lord, now bless our battle and our freedom, and therefore our German people and fatherland.


- Adolf Hitler, Prayer, May 1, 1933


18. Adolf Hitler: Fighting for the Lord's Work


I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work.


- Adolf Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936


19. Adolf Hitler in Conversation with Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber


The Catholic Church should not deceive herself: if National Socialism does not succeed in defeating Bolshevism, then Church and Christianity in Europe too are finished. Bolshevism is the mortal enemy of the Church as much as of Fascism. ...Man cannot exist without belief in God. The soldier who for three and four days lies under intense bombardment needs a religious prop.


- Adolf Hitler in conversation with Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber of Bavaria, November 4, 1936




from http://atheism.about.com/od.....01.htm

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,13:52   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,13:10)
Here's my response, Arden: I was involved in writing the film, not marketing it. The decisions about who does and who doesn't get to see a pre-screening of the film are entirely in the hands of our producers and our marketing team. If you sincerely want an answer to your question, I suggest you contact Motive Marketing or Premise Media.

How do you feel about their lying to viewers, and do you consider it to be consistent with Christian belief?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
ERV



Posts: 329
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,13:53   

Quote (Louis @ April 07 2008,13:36)
Not that I would ever suggest a Nazi connection but I do wonder if Kevin was just following orders? ;-)

How did you know what I was thinking??  I think youre right about the genius thing.  What is your IQ score, calibrated by your SAT scores at the age of 23?  I find that scale to be the most useful.

Anyway Kevin, as much as Im enjoying your tap-dance routine here, just gotta put this out there since you apparently *dont know* some things about your own movie: If you dont know who the fall guy is, its you.

btw-- FAIL, loser.

  
Venus Mousetrap



Posts: 201
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,13:54   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,12:49)
Hey Wes: For the record, I'm not ticked off with you. If you'll notice, I also put myself (and all other Kevin Millers on imdb) into the mofo category. It's a tongue in cheek thing. I may not agree with a lot of what people like Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins or PZ Myers have to say, but I still admire their chutzpah, and Iíd gladly have a beer with them (and you) any time. So wear it as a badge of honor. I'm just trying to have a little fun here.

As for your responses to my statements, despite appearances to the contrary, I'm not coming into this discussion with the assumption, "Everything Wes Elsberry says is wrong." I am listening, and pondering. And I am open to revising my views in light of new and better information. So you'll have to excuse me if I don't dive into a line-by-line response to your posts right away. Itís not an admission of defeat. I just need time to process the various arguments. (Plus, it's been a busy weekend, we have a new baby in the house, and I'm just plain tired.) But even if it turns out that everything youíve said is right and everything Iíve said is wrong, Iím okay with that, because for me, this has never been about winning or losing. It's about learning. The only thing that really matters to me is getting at the truth, because the truth benefits everyone no matter what side of the debate theyíre on. Contrary to how some critics have depicted the film, Expelled is not about promoting a singular point of view, namely, Intelligent Design. Itís about ensuring that all points of view receive a fair and adequate hearing. We made this film because we had good reason to believe that this was not the case with ID, and I stand by that assertion. In addition, my hope is that the film will prompt people on all sides of the issue to engage with one another. Because what I've observed over the past two years is complete polarization. The various camps sit in their respective corners cackling about how stupid the other guys are, but they rarely talk to each otheróexcept to hurl insults. Very few people engaged in this debate seem open to an honest pursuit of the truth. Most are more interested in scoring debating points, looking clever, and promoting their own agenda.

So what Iím trying to do both here and on my blog is engage. In the process, I may say some things that come off as stupid, ignorant or inflammatory. I may hurl a few insults from time to time, and I may needle a few people who need to be needled. After all, Iím only human. But the learning process is often messy and confused. So youíll have to excuse me if I cack up the joint from time to time.

In light of the above, I do want to ask Wes (and anyone else who cares to respond) a couple of questions:

1) How does science distinguish between a paradigm problem and a research problem? In other words, when a researcher encounters an anomaly, how does he/she determine whether the anomaly is a result of a problem with the data rather than a problem with the theory under which the data is being examined?

2) I understand that you're a Christian, Wes. And yet I get the sense that you believe divine influence is not something that should be factored into your study of the natural world. Fair enough. So my question is, if God doesn't influence the world through natural processes, such as evolution, how does he engage with nature? For example, I assume that you pray. How does God answer your prayers? Does he do so in any scientifically detectable way? Or do you take the Ken Miller approach and say he influences things on the quantum level in a way that we are unable to observe?

I'll have a go, Kevin.

1) All those statistical methods and repetitions that scientists perform are their way of checking the data. On the other hand, paradigm problems occur when the current theory is meeting events that it can't explain.

Relativity, for example, came about when Newtonian gravity just wasn't working at the scale of planets. Einstein showed that his way was much better, and everyone saw that it was true. No all-interpretations-are-equal there: relativity explained what they saw, and Newton didn't.

Or take quantum theory. Classical physics wasn't working - scientists were getting silly results like infinite energies being radiated in the ultraviolet frequency, and they couldn't explain why electrons were able to orbit nuclei without losing energy and spiralling in. It took a scientist to take the utterly stupid step of fudging the math to pretend that all the electrons were stuck in energy levels, and everyone laughed at him (I think it was Bohr) - until they found that it predicted what they were seeing perfectly.

Note the common theme in those two. They made predictions which they then showed to be true. If you can do that, you don't NEED this debate.

The theory of evolution HAS done this part already. It predicts the pattern of life on Earth to astonishing accuracy.

ID, on the other hand... it's hard even to tell exactly what they're trying to do. Can you name even one prediction of ID? I can't. About the most you can get out of them is 'junk DNA has function' (an old creationist claim, of course, but what do you expect), and if you ask them how that prediction follows from their theory then you'll hear a lot of running away before you realise that there is no theory from which to make predictions. Seriously. There is no logical link between the various scraps that IDers throw about. It's pretty pathetic.

I'm not making any of that up. Check for yourself. See if you can do it. And see if you can get them to tell you how to do it, which is even harder.

2) There isn't anything to stop God throwing lightning bolts or inseminating women. Science doesn't rule that out - it just says we can't study it, because we can't repeat observations. You have mixed up 'science cannot describe this' with 'this does not happen'. No one says science explains everything. It doesn't.

If we regularly saw God chuck lightning bolts out of the sky, we could take measurements of the kind of electricity he uses. How much more powerful is divine lightning? What's the spectrum of that? How does he target people without it being attracted by other bodies? We can experiment and theorise.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,13:54   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,13:15)
JohnW: Like it or not, Hitler was influenced by Darwinian science and philosophy. So it's not about scoring points, looking clever or promoting an agenda. It's about setting the record straight. Whether Hitler hijacked Darwinian science for his own purposes or merely followed it to its logical ethical conclusions is a matter of debate. As I've said elsewhere, Expelled didn't invent these arguments. So if you want to quibble over them, I direct you to the people who make them in our film.

Martin Luther was a vastly bigger influence on Hitler. (Hitler never once mentions Darwin, though he mentioned Jesus and God plenty of times.) So can I rely on you to make your next film denouncing Martin Luther, and, by extension, Protestantism?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
kevinmillerxi



Posts: 92
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,13:54   

Carlsonjok said, "Your mission, if you choose to accept it, is to explain why the integration of overtly Christian language into Hitler's speeches and writings should be held to a different standard to the far more scattered and oblique references to evolution.  For bonus points, explain away the influence of the virulently anti-semitic Martin Luther."

I'm not saying they should be held to a different standard. I'm saying exactly the opposite. Just as Christians can't gloss over the fact that Hitler used elements of Christianity to justify his actions, neither can proponents of Darwinian evolution gloss over the fact that Hitler did the same with this theory. As for Luther's influence on Hitler's anti-semitism, there's no need to explain it away. It's patently clear. No one is saying Darwinian science inspired Hitler's anti-semitism, he just used it to provide a scientific justification for what he believed.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,13:57   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,13:54)
As for Luther's influence on Hitler's anti-semitism, there's no need to explain it away. It's patently clear. No one is saying Darwinian science inspired Hitler's anti-semitism,

Last I checked, that's exactly what Ben Stein says. He seems to think antisemitism never existed in Europe until 1933, or perhaps 1859 at the earliest.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,13:57   

Quote (carlsonjok @ April 07 2008,13:31)
Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,13:15)
As I've said elsewhere, Expelled didn't invent these arguments. So if you want to quibble over them, I direct you to the people who make them in our film.

You know as a writer working on a film called "Crossroads", that explores the intersection between science and religion, I would have thought that you might feel some responsibility to ensure that such bold statements were supported by the facts. Of course, you are just the writer. We probably can't hold you responsible, since it is the producer who is, ultimately, in charge. You were probably just following orders.

But, fear not, friend. When you and the Expelled team start feeling beseiged by all those nasty evolutionists, just get together and remind each other that "Gott Mit Uns."

For Kevin:

I think that in the German, this is "befel est befel".

It means "I was only following orders". You heard a lot of Germans uttering these words.  In Nuremburg, in 1945 and 1946.  We hung a lot of the knuckleheads that tried to use this defense.  

Would you like to try again?

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,13:57   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,19:43)
[SNIP]

But evolutionary biology has never been just about the science. Why else would there be such a heated debate over it?

[SNIP]

O RLY?

Evidence please, what else is evolutionary biology about if it isn't science? Can I have a shadowy conspiracy theory please. Don't disappoint.

I'd also love to see your rationalisation for Hitler abandoning christian ethics, given the very well documented links and Lutheran precedents he had for certain ideas. No doubt you'll equivocate on "christian". I think I'll leave it to the massing hoardes to point out just how wrong you are about this. And even then, it's still a total irrelevance.

The "debate" exists because the doctrines of a limited number of predominantly christian (although by no means exclusively so) religious sects are believed by their adherents to be in conflict with certain aspects of modern science. These sects have been lobbying for decades, particularly and most obivously in the USA, for their dislike of these certain aspects of modern science to be legislated for. Period. Your delusions to the contrary are not evidence. Your ignorance is not evidence. Your obvious bias and prejudice is not evidence.

Louis

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Bye.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:00   

But Hitler never mentions Darwin. Are we playing 6 degrees of Adolf Hitler? Kevin Bacon should have told him that the rich history of Biblical genocide predates Darwin, artificial selection (which we've know about since the year dot - pets, crops, etc) is not natural selection and arguing to [perceived] consequences is idiocy - reality is not contingent on our approval.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
kevinmillerxi



Posts: 92
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:01   

Venus: Thanks for taking my questions seriously. I have a question about your second response:

You said, "There isn't anything to stop God throwing lightning bolts or inseminating women. Science doesn't rule that out - it just says we can't study it, because we can't repeat observations. You have mixed up 'science cannot describe this' with 'this does not happen'. No one says science explains everything. It doesn't."

Actually, lots of people say science explains everything. That's why we have no need for God. But that's beside the point. If God does influence this world, is this influence measureable in any scientific way? If not, how can it be detected? I'm really interested to hear from anyone who approaches this from a theistic position.

  
kevinmillerxi



Posts: 92
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:03   

Rich: Whether or not Hitler ever mentioned Darwin is completely beside the point. His writings and speeches are rife with Darwinian language and ideas.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:04   

Quote (ERV @ April 07 2008,19:53)
Quote (Louis @ April 07 2008,13:36)
Not that I would ever suggest a Nazi connection but I do wonder if Kevin was just following orders? ;-)

How did you know what I was thinking?? †I think youre right about the genius thing. †What is your IQ score, calibrated by your SAT scores at the age of 23? †I find that scale to be the most useful.

{deeeeeep breath}

MY IQ IS 15000 CALCULATED BY TAKING THE RATIO OF MY NUMBER OF BRAIN CELLS TO MY WAIST SIZE. I AM A CHEEZY POOF LOVING AUTODEFIBRILATOR WHO WOULD ONLY DO IT WITH AN ESKIMO WOMAN IF SHE BEGGED ME AT LEAST TWICE AS HARD AS A NORMAL WOMAN. WOMEN ALL BEG TO HAVE MY CHILDRENS. I AM EXCEEDINGLY WELL ARMED AND HAVE BRED A DOG DAVETARD HYBRID PACK TO GUARD MY PROPERTY PORTFOLIO WHICH IS WORTH $180000000000 AND WAS GIVEN TO ME BY MICHAEL DELL AFTER I PERFORMED AN INTIMATE PERSONAL SERVICE ON HIM A COUPLE OF TIMES. JUST CALL ME DYSON.

I DON'T LIKE CLOWNS. FEAR TEH CLOWNS. HOMOS


{breathes out cleansing breath}

Louis

P.S. I can't take Kevin seriously. The concern trolling, it's just too much. She canna take any more Captain. If we get one more millikobold of concern trolling she'll blow. {mutters something about trilithium, after all Star Trek (of which I am not a fan) had more science in it than IDC. And THAT is saying something}

--------------
Bye.

  
Glen Davidson



Posts: 1045
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:06   

I'm not one who would claim that evolutionary ideas could not have played a role in Nazism. †But of course it would be one thing to note how eugenics (which certainly preceded Darwin--and Mendel) might have used "Darwinism" as a vehicle and influenced the Nazis, and quite another to suppose that "Darwinism" caused Nazism.

Hitler was badly abused as a boy, and much of his psyche was predictable (and predicted, even) according to the abused child syndrome. †What one has to do after noting that, is to look at the cultural influences surrounding him (after all, the Nazi party cannot really be thought of as separate from him--prior to him it was a different party), eugenicists, Luther, European anti-Semitism (which, contrary to what many think, was not particularly strong in Germany in the 19th century), World War I and Versailles, and the occult.

In fact, it is believed that the occult probably had a major influence upon Hitler and the other Nazis, for Jews were portrayed in the occult as unclean devilish characters. †Luther and the eugenicists in fact are probably lesser influences, even if useful in Nazi propaganda, because Hitler probably wasn't really a Christian, and killing gypsies and Jews wasn't eugenics (how stupid are the IDiots? †They keep trying to pretend that massacring the Jews was eugenics, when it wasn't that at all?).

European anti-Semitism played a major role, of course (coupled with Christian conceptions of blood guilt upon the Jews), and the idea that international Jewish conspiracies were behind the Versailles treaty was common among the Nazis.

Any honest (leaves Kevin out--I don't care how ignorant he is, he has an obligation to learn about issues before he writes a movie script about those issues) historical evaluation of Nazis and their atrocities will include these matters (including why eugenics and Luther were useful to propagandize the public) and many others as well. †Simplistic garbage is what we get from Kevin and his cohorts, by contrast, and we're supposed to read the prejudiced account of Weikert.

Forget it Kevin. †I've studied reasonably well for a layperson into this, and while I don't deny that there could be a "Darwinist" component to the growth of the Nazis, no one has the evidence to suggest that "Darwinism" was necessary to the triumph of the Nazi party in Germany. †There are much larger causal factors (while "Darwinism," as I pointed out, isn't even certain as a causal factor, even if it is likely a vehicle for causes behind the Nazis) that cannot be dismissed at all, from Hitler's boyhood abuse, to the aftermath of World War I and occult depictions of Jews. †Any "Darwinistic" component pales by comparison, and the theory of evolution cannot even be shown to be a causal factor, let alone an important vehicle for other causes driving Nazism.

The truth is that Kevin relies on junk history as much as he does junk science to write his dishonest movie. †This indicates that, far from being a threat to evolution alone, ID threatens all of scholarship if it manages to hijack the government for its sectarian goals. †The fact that the movie is so inept and unconvincing to anyone with a decent education is our main hope that the movie will not whip up the kind of mob mentality that fascists have always relied upon.

Glen D

--------------
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:07   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,14:03)
Rich: Whether or not Hitler ever mentioned Darwin is completely beside the point. His writings and speeches are rife with Darwinian language and ideas.

Darwinian language and ideas! Really. Natural selection, not artificial selection, which predates Darwin by millenia?

Link me up, Kevin!! I'll have a look!

Strange how he does all that without saying "Darwin". Still arguing to phantom consequences? Even if your Hitler-Darwin link was true, would that make NDE any less real?

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:07   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,14:03)
Rich: Whether or not Hitler ever mentioned Darwin is completely beside the point.

Beside the point? Well, if you want to lie about AH's motives, I can see that being 'beside the point'.

Quote
His writings and speeches are rife with Darwinian language and ideas.


Given the far vaster influence that Jesus and Luther had on AH, I fail to see why don't blame them for Hitler. (And of course, write movies condemning Luther and Christianity.)

Again, do you think that it is consistent with Christianity for your promoters to deliberately lie about your movie to potential viewers?

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:07   

Somebody remind me.  What do Nazis have to do with "Expelled?"

Kevin?  Kevin?  Anybody?

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:08   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,14:01)
Actually, lots of people say science explains everything. That's why we have no need for God.

But none of them are scientists; most of them are religionists like yourself, with a minimal yet twisted concept of what science is all about.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
† † † † † † † † † † † † - Pattiann Rogers

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:09   

Quote (Richardthughes @ April 07 2008,14:07)
Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,14:03)
Rich: Whether or not Hitler ever mentioned Darwin is completely beside the point. His writings and speeches are rife with Darwinian language and ideas.

Darwinian language and ideas! Really. Natural selection, not artificial selection, which predates Darwin by millenia?

Link me up, Kevin!! I'll have a look!

Strange how he does all that without saying "Darwin". Still arguing to phantom consequences? Even if your Hitler-Darwin link was true, would that make NDE any less real?

Ooh, I found the quote Kevin's talking about, on page 926 of Mein Kampf:

"Since I am an atheist, when I come into power in Germany in 11 years, I will kill all the Jews. In this I am merely following the orders of that English guy who wrote that Origin of Species book. Unfortunately I can't remember his name right now, but you know who I mean."

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4902
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:14   

Kevin may be interested in some video of a debate I had with William Dembski.

Haverford conference video, 2001/06/17:

William Dembski's presentation

My presentation

Dembski and Elsberry panel

Dembski and Elsberry audience Q&A

My PowerPoint file for presentation

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:14   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ April 07 2008,14:09)
Quote (Richardthughes @ April 07 2008,14:07)
 
Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,14:03)
Rich: Whether or not Hitler ever mentioned Darwin is completely beside the point. His writings and speeches are rife with Darwinian language and ideas.

Darwinian language and ideas! Really. Natural selection, not artificial selection, which predates Darwin by millenia?

Link me up, Kevin!! I'll have a look!

Strange how he does all that without saying "Darwin". Still arguing to phantom consequences? Even if your Hitler-Darwin link was true, would that make NDE any less real?

Ooh, I found the quote Kevin's talking about, on page 926 of Mein Kampf:

"Since I am an atheist, when I come into power in Germany in 11 years, I will kill all the Jews. In this I am merely following the orders of that English guy who wrote that Origin of Species book. Unfortunately I can't remember his name right now, but you know who I mean."



--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,14:14   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,20:03)
Rich: Whether or not Hitler ever mentioned Darwin is completely beside the point. His writings and speeches are rife with Darwinian language and ideas.

Nature red in tooth and claw precedes Darwin, precedes modern evolutionary biology even.

You knew that, right?

Oh wait, this isn't about facts for you is it, it's about implications, or rather the implications YOU see as being present. Heard of the Is/Ought fallacy? Look it up.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
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