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The whole truth



Posts: 1554
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: May 23 2013,07:03   

I'm curious about something. Articles at the two links below say that the Norway Spruce has "the largest genome to have ever been mapped. The genome is complex and seven times larger than that of humans."

Is the seven times larger Norway Spruce genome larger than the fifty times larger genome of Paris japonica?

http://www.alphagalileo.org/ViewIte....Code=en

http://www.sciencedaily.com/release....039.htm

--------------
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
Cubist



Posts: 558
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 23 2013,15:31   

Quote (The whole truth @ May 23 2013,07:03)
I'm curious about something. Articles at the two links below say that the Norway Spruce has "the largest genome to have ever been mapped. The genome is complex and seven times larger than that of humans."

Is the seven times larger Norway Spruce genome larger than the fifty times larger genome of Paris japonica?

http://www.alphagalileo.org/ViewIte....Code=en

http://www.sciencedaily.com/release....039.htm

The phrase "to have ever been mapped" may explain the seeming discrepancy. No idea if P. japonica's genome has been mapped yet…

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 23 2013,22:56   

Where's a cartographer when you need one...

  
Quack



Posts: 1961
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 24 2013,09:51   

As far as I can tell, the genome has been described as 7 times larger that the human genome. (Science Daily, Swedish Radio).

--------------
Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: May 24 2013,12:19   

http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content....3.short

Embryonic cannibalism in sharks.

Multiple males may fertilize a single female sand tiger shark. The embryos compete in her two wombs by eating each other.

One article I've read suggests this is sexual selection of the males, continuing after fertilization. I don't agree, since the genes are only half his.

--------------
I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 24 2013,14:06   

Quote (dvunkannon @ May 24 2013,11:19)
Multiple males may fertilize a single female sand tiger shark. The embryos compete in her two wombs by eating each other.

Talk about your dysfunctional families!

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 27 2013,09:50   

Some time back, one of our resident antievolutionists pointed out a paper on evolvability. The research involved using evolutionary computation to assess how evolvability might change under genetic drift alone. It's a pretty nifty paper.

It also inspired me to replicate and extend the first genetic drift model they used. All the Lehman and Stanley models are done on a 2D grid. I made my program generic for dimension and I'm currently running for dimensions 2 through 5. I did this in Python, and Python 2.7.3 on my 2007-era workstation takes about an hour to do one run with the same parameters as in Lehman and Stanley. I just separated out my code to get a pure-Python GA and a separate program with analysis that uses NumPy, Pandas, and matplotlib. So I can apply PyPy to the GA part. That gets me to 19 minutes per run on the workstation.

From the first ten runs, 2D through 5D:



Just last week, Diane and I bought our first new desktop computer since 2007. I got a bundle from Newegg that gives us a 4.0 GHz eight-core AMD processor and 8 GB of RAM. The bundle included a 500GB hard drive. I added three 3TB drives to that. The 0.5TB drive I'm using for system stuff. I'm running Ubuntu 12.04 desktop on it. I added VirtualBox and set up a Windows XP VM with 512MB of memory and set aside 80GB for it. Our current file server is about out of space; it has 4TB in it. So I'm hopeful the 9TB will give us room to grow for a while. I'm planning to get the files reorganized on the new server, then use the old disks for backup. The first rsync job is underway; copying 2TB across the network looks like it will take two days.

Getting back to the evolutionary computation, I just launched five processes on the new box to handle runs of the genetic drift model. The first indication of time per run shows about 13.4 minutes. If my CPU doesn't melt, I should have the whole set of 50 runs per dimension done by tomorrow morning. I have a post up here.

I'm also looking for my stash of piezo disks so I can fabricate a couple of hydrophones. I finally figured out getting real-time clock for the Raspberry Pis and the firmware has improved to the point where I can reboot with a USB sound device plugged in, so I have the basis for a deployable audio monitoring system. There's a monitoring station I can add a device to situated on a dock in Sarasota Bay, where there's 12V DC, 120V AC, and full Ethernet access. I should be able to set up periodic recording and data upload for that station with no great difficulty. I do still need to nail down the acoustic hardware, which I intend to use a homebuilt hydrophone and amplifier kit for. What I am looking for is sufficient quality to extract numbers of snapping shrimp clicks; that should be a pretty easy target. The station samples its instruments every quarter hour, so I'm looking to do the same so I can provide results in sync with other instruments. I figure one minute of sound per quarter hour should be a reasonable first try. Once I have some results, I can see whether it is feasible to do any of the acoustic processing on board the Raspberry Pi, or whether I should handle that back home.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2013,06:35   

removed for wrongness!

Edited by Richardthughes on May 28 2013,06:36

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Arctodus23



Posts: 322
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2013,21:57   

Bonobo Chimp, emotion

--------------
"At our church’s funerals, we sing gospel songs (out loud) to God." -- FL

"So the center of the earth being hotter than the surface is a "gross
violation of the second law of thermodynamics??" -- Ted Holden

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 06 2013,08:41   

This thread is for actual science news.


Religious Vomit by Lou FCD, on Flickr

If you really must post religious nonsense, please do it on The Bathroom Wall, which is where the preceding conversation currently resides.

Thanks.

Edited by Lou FCD on June 06 2013,09:41

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: June 06 2013,08:59   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ May 27 2013,09:50)
Some time back, one of our resident antievolutionists pointed out a paper on evolvability. The research involved using evolutionary computation to assess how evolvability might change under genetic drift alone. It's a pretty nifty paper.

It also inspired me to replicate and extend the first genetic drift model they used. All the Lehman and Stanley models are done on a 2D grid. I made my program generic for dimension and I'm currently running for dimensions 2 through 5. I did this in Python, and Python 2.7.3 on my 2007-era workstation takes about an hour to do one run with the same parameters as in Lehman and Stanley. I just separated out my code to get a pure-Python GA and a separate program with analysis that uses NumPy, Pandas, and matplotlib. So I can apply PyPy to the GA part. That gets me to 19 minutes per run on the workstation.

From the first ten runs, 2D through 5D:



Just last week, Diane and I bought our first new desktop computer since 2007. I got a bundle from Newegg that gives us a 4.0 GHz eight-core AMD processor and 8 GB of RAM. The bundle included a 500GB hard drive. I added three 3TB drives to that. The 0.5TB drive I'm using for system stuff. I'm running Ubuntu 12.04 desktop on it. I added VirtualBox and set up a Windows XP VM with 512MB of memory and set aside 80GB for it. Our current file server is about out of space; it has 4TB in it. So I'm hopeful the 9TB will give us room to grow for a while. I'm planning to get the files reorganized on the new server, then use the old disks for backup. The first rsync job is underway; copying 2TB across the network looks like it will take two days.

Getting back to the evolutionary computation, I just launched five processes on the new box to handle runs of the genetic drift model. The first indication of time per run shows about 13.4 minutes. If my CPU doesn't melt, I should have the whole set of 50 runs per dimension done by tomorrow morning. I have a post up here.

I'm also looking for my stash of piezo disks so I can fabricate a couple of hydrophones. I finally figured out getting real-time clock for the Raspberry Pis and the firmware has improved to the point where I can reboot with a USB sound device plugged in, so I have the basis for a deployable audio monitoring system. There's a monitoring station I can add a device to situated on a dock in Sarasota Bay, where there's 12V DC, 120V AC, and full Ethernet access. I should be able to set up periodic recording and data upload for that station with no great difficulty. I do still need to nail down the acoustic hardware, which I intend to use a homebuilt hydrophone and amplifier kit for. What I am looking for is sufficient quality to extract numbers of snapping shrimp clicks; that should be a pretty easy target. The station samples its instruments every quarter hour, so I'm looking to do the same so I can provide results in sync with other instruments. I figure one minute of sound per quarter hour should be a reasonable first try. Once I have some results, I can see whether it is feasible to do any of the acoustic processing on board the Raspberry Pi, or whether I should handle that back home.

How much processing power do you need and is it distributable?

I read about a grad student who built his own Beowulf cluster from Raspberry Pi boards.  http://coen.boisestate.edu/ece/files/2013/05/Creating.a.Raspberry.Pi-Based.Beowulf.Cluster_v2.pdf

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: June 06 2013,12:22   

Not biology, but this is interesting (and really cool)

http://scitechdaily.com/researc....objects

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Freddie



Posts: 371
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: June 06 2013,15:42   

Quote (OgreMkV @ June 06 2013,12:22)
Not biology, but this is interesting (and really cool)

http://scitechdaily.com/researc....objects

Well - now we all know what batshit77 is going to be throwing at us for the next 12 months.

--------------
Joe: Most criticisims of ID stem from ignorance and jealousy.
Joe: As for the authors of the books in the Bible, well the OT was authored by Moses and the NT was authored by various people.
Byers: The eskimo would not need hairy hair growth as hair, I say, is for keeping people dry. Not warm.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2013,16:27   

OOL:

https://www.llnl.gov/news....02.html

ID spin - Panspermia?

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2013,16:40   

Quote (Richardthughes @ June 10 2013,14:27)
OOL:

https://www.llnl.gov/news.......02.html

ID spin - Panspermia?

ID spin: Scientists still don't know for sure.  Therefore Jesus.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2013,12:27   

Was that saying that comets brought energy and molecules, but that life formed from that after its arrival, rather than that life arrived from the comets?

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2013,13:16   

Quote (OgreMkV @ June 06 2013,08:59)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ May 27 2013,09:50)
Some time back, one of our resident antievolutionists pointed out a paper on evolvability. The research involved using evolutionary computation to assess how evolvability might change under genetic drift alone. It's a pretty nifty paper.

It also inspired me to replicate and extend the first genetic drift model they used. All the Lehman and Stanley models are done on a 2D grid. I made my program generic for dimension and I'm currently running for dimensions 2 through 5. I did this in Python, and Python 2.7.3 on my 2007-era workstation takes about an hour to do one run with the same parameters as in Lehman and Stanley. I just separated out my code to get a pure-Python GA and a separate program with analysis that uses NumPy, Pandas, and matplotlib. So I can apply PyPy to the GA part. That gets me to 19 minutes per run on the workstation.

From the first ten runs, 2D through 5D:



Just last week, Diane and I bought our first new desktop computer since 2007. I got a bundle from Newegg that gives us a 4.0 GHz eight-core AMD processor and 8 GB of RAM. The bundle included a 500GB hard drive. I added three 3TB drives to that. The 0.5TB drive I'm using for system stuff. I'm running Ubuntu 12.04 desktop on it. I added VirtualBox and set up a Windows XP VM with 512MB of memory and set aside 80GB for it. Our current file server is about out of space; it has 4TB in it. So I'm hopeful the 9TB will give us room to grow for a while. I'm planning to get the files reorganized on the new server, then use the old disks for backup. The first rsync job is underway; copying 2TB across the network looks like it will take two days.

Getting back to the evolutionary computation, I just launched five processes on the new box to handle runs of the genetic drift model. The first indication of time per run shows about 13.4 minutes. If my CPU doesn't melt, I should have the whole set of 50 runs per dimension done by tomorrow morning. I have a post up here.

I'm also looking for my stash of piezo disks so I can fabricate a couple of hydrophones. I finally figured out getting real-time clock for the Raspberry Pis and the firmware has improved to the point where I can reboot with a USB sound device plugged in, so I have the basis for a deployable audio monitoring system. There's a monitoring station I can add a device to situated on a dock in Sarasota Bay, where there's 12V DC, 120V AC, and full Ethernet access. I should be able to set up periodic recording and data upload for that station with no great difficulty. I do still need to nail down the acoustic hardware, which I intend to use a homebuilt hydrophone and amplifier kit for. What I am looking for is sufficient quality to extract numbers of snapping shrimp clicks; that should be a pretty easy target. The station samples its instruments every quarter hour, so I'm looking to do the same so I can provide results in sync with other instruments. I figure one minute of sound per quarter hour should be a reasonable first try. Once I have some results, I can see whether it is feasible to do any of the acoustic processing on board the Raspberry Pi, or whether I should handle that back home.

How much processing power do you need and is it distributable?

I read about a grad student who built his own Beowulf cluster from Raspberry Pi boards.  http://coen.boisestate.edu/ece/files/2013/05/Creating.a.Raspberry.Pi-Based.Beowulf.Cluster_v2.pdf

I've gotten my runs done. I need to find some time to work up the results.

It wouldn't take a lot more to make the runs something that could be distributed, though. Maybe make a process that runs a web service that clients can request job parameters from and report status back to.

I tried runs on my Raspberry Pis, and they were only about 1/20th the speed of even my older workstation. The Beowulf cluster of RasPis is a cool thing, though it isn't going to really going to deliver compute power of the sort that would make PC makers nervous.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2013,15:56   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ May 27 2013,10:50)
Some time back, one of our resident antievolutionists pointed out a paper on evolvability. The research involved using evolutionary computation to assess how evolvability might change under genetic drift alone. It's a pretty nifty paper.

It also inspired me to replicate and extend the first genetic drift model they used. All the Lehman and Stanley models are done on a 2D grid. I made my program generic for dimension and I'm currently running for dimensions 2 through 5. I did this in Python, and Python 2.7.3 on my 2007-era workstation takes about an hour to do one run with the same parameters as in Lehman and Stanley. I just separated out my code to get a pure-Python GA and a separate program with analysis that uses NumPy, Pandas, and matplotlib. So I can apply PyPy to the GA part. That gets me to 19 minutes per run on the workstation.

From the first ten runs, 2D through 5D:



Just last week, Diane and I bought our first new desktop computer since 2007. I got a bundle from Newegg that gives us a 4.0 GHz eight-core AMD processor and 8 GB of RAM. The bundle included a 500GB hard drive. I added three 3TB drives to that. The 0.5TB drive I'm using for system stuff. I'm running Ubuntu 12.04 desktop on it. I added VirtualBox and set up a Windows XP VM with 512MB of memory and set aside 80GB for it. Our current file server is about out of space; it has 4TB in it. So I'm hopeful the 9TB will give us room to grow for a while. I'm planning to get the files reorganized on the new server, then use the old disks for backup. The first rsync job is underway; copying 2TB across the network looks like it will take two days.

Getting back to the evolutionary computation, I just launched five processes on the new box to handle runs of the genetic drift model. The first indication of time per run shows about 13.4 minutes. If my CPU doesn't melt, I should have the whole set of 50 runs per dimension done by tomorrow morning. I have a post up here.

I'm also looking for my stash of piezo disks so I can fabricate a couple of hydrophones. I finally figured out getting real-time clock for the Raspberry Pis and the firmware has improved to the point where I can reboot with a USB sound device plugged in, so I have the basis for a deployable audio monitoring system. There's a monitoring station I can add a device to situated on a dock in Sarasota Bay, where there's 12V DC, 120V AC, and full Ethernet access. I should be able to set up periodic recording and data upload for that station with no great difficulty. I do still need to nail down the acoustic hardware, which I intend to use a homebuilt hydrophone and amplifier kit for. What I am looking for is sufficient quality to extract numbers of snapping shrimp clicks; that should be a pretty easy target. The station samples its instruments every quarter hour, so I'm looking to do the same so I can provide results in sync with other instruments. I figure one minute of sound per quarter hour should be a reasonable first try. Once I have some results, I can see whether it is feasible to do any of the acoustic processing on board the Raspberry Pi, or whether I should handle that back home.

You are spending Way too much time on science, and slacking on Project Delta 37, in which you were clearly ordered to destroy Gary Gaulin's life, health, and credit rating.

Get back to work mister->otherwise his groundbreaking, clear, and ultrarevolutionary theory might succeed in K-12 education and rewrite all the textbooks :angry:

PS this reprimand will be placed in your Permanent File and you will have to answer for it in your next Science Stopping and Religious Agenda Promoting Performance Review.

   
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2013,01:19   

Quote (stevestory @ June 12 2013,13:56)
You are spending Way too much time on science, and slacking on Project Delta 37, in which you were clearly ordered to destroy Gary Gaulin's life, health, and credit rating.

Get back to work mister->otherwise his groundbreaking, clear, and ultrarevolutionary theory might succeed in K-12 education and rewrite all the textbooks :angry:

PS this reprimand will be placed in your Permanent File and you will have to answer for it in your next Science Stopping and Religious Agenda Promoting Performance Review.

Way to go, agent Steve. You didn't anonymize your post. Now we have to move the super-secret bunker. Again. It's getting hard to find mountains to drill into that NORAD and ALCAN haven't already called dibs on.

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2013,10:03   

http://www.sciencedaily.com/release....858.htm

Memory-Boosting Chemical Identified in Mice: Cell Biologists Find Molecule Targets a Key Biological Pathway

Sadly, this is a typically bad piece of science communication via press release. Evolution comes up, not handled very well.

With the help of a newly discovered small drug molecule, mice can remember better, apparently at the cost of opening themselves to increased cellular stress. Hmmm, I wonder why better memory didn't evolve that way?

--------------
I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2013,12:54   

Quote
Hmmm, I wonder why better memory didn't evolve that way?

I forget. :p

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 15 2013,20:58   

Quote (fnxtr @ June 13 2013,02:19)
Way to go, agent Steve. You didn't anonymize your post. Now we have to move the super-secret bunker. Again. It's getting hard to find mountains to drill into that NORAD and ALCAN haven't already called dibs on.

See if those 6 Banker Cabal Jews will let us use their moonbase.

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 17 2013,14:52   


Religious Vomit by Lou FCD, on Flickr


Again, Thrinaxodon, this thread is for real science news. Your pseudoscientific religious ravings can go to your own thread or The Bathroom Wall.

Edited by Lou FCD on June 17 2013,15:53

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 17 2013,14:54   

Quote (dvunkannon @ June 15 2013,10:03)
http://www.sciencedaily.com/release....858.htm

Memory-Boosting Chemical Identified in Mice: Cell Biologists Find Molecule Targets a Key Biological Pathway

Sadly, this is a typically bad piece of science communication via press release. Evolution comes up, not handled very well.

With the help of a newly discovered small drug molecule, mice can remember better, apparently at the cost of opening themselves to increased cellular stress. Hmmm, I wonder why better memory didn't evolve that way?

Something about the candle that burns at both ends.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Quack



Posts: 1961
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 18 2013,04:37   

New Subduction Zone Found. (Science Daily.)

What about the mid-Atlantic ridge, I thought the Atlantic would continue widening?

--------------
Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
k.e..



Posts: 5432
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 18 2013,08:37   

Quote (Quack @ June 18 2013,12:37)
New Subduction Zone Found. (Science Daily.)

What about the mid-Atlantic ridge, I thought the Atlantic would continue widening?

Que the subduction dniers...

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: June 18 2013,09:36   

Quote (Quack @ June 18 2013,04:37)
New Subduction Zone Found. (Science Daily.)

What about the mid-Atlantic ridge, I thought the Atlantic would continue widening?

Talk about timely.  I just started reviewing some work about subducting plates this morning. I'm glad I took this little break.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Quack



Posts: 1961
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 20 2013,12:50   

More of the same

--------------
Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 23 2013,15:11   

Looks like the oceanic plate ridge is still spreading but instead of carrying continental plates apart, said oceanic plate is starting to subduct at its margins.

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 24 2013,15:17   


Religious Vomit by Lou FCD, on Flickr


Thrinaxodon, this thread is for real science news. Your pseudoscientific religious ravings can go to your own thread or The Bathroom Wall. If you can't do that for yourself, I'll have it done for you.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
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