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  Topic: Uncommonly Dense Thread 5, Return To Teh Dingbat Buffet< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 17 2017,18:14   

Quote (Acartia_Bogart @ Oct. 17 2017,15:46)
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 17 2017,17:35)
Quote
God is a necessary being,


thanks, but if the lecture on essential components and characteristics of space-time is coming from a person who would badly fail a physics 101 final exam, Ima skip it.

IS OUGHT gap. Plato’s cave. Holocaust 800 million plus and counting. Strawman soaked in oil of red herring and set ablaze.

Bydand!

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 2363
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 19 2017,10:21   

I think News is entering her dotage.  Can anybody even figure out what she's saying here?  It's about finding 43 million year soft tissue in a Bird fossil.    
Quote
If analyzable soft tissue keeps turning up, paleontology will become a feeder field for molecular biology, which means that it can no longer be the preserve of Darwin’s Fossils, propping up their belief systems, secure in the fact that very few other people had or could get much evidence for anything else.

As near as I can make out, it's something like "Darwin bad!  Fossils no good!"

  
k.e..



Posts: 5432
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 19 2017,10:35   

Quote (CeilingCat @ Oct. 19 2017,18:21)
I think News is entering her dotage.  Can anybody even figure out what she's saying here?  It's about finding 43 million year soft tissue in a Bird fossil.    
Quote
If analyzable soft tissue keeps turning up, paleontology will become a feeder field for molecular biology, which means that it can no longer be the preserve of Darwin’s Fossils, propping up their belief systems, secure in the fact that very few other people had or could get much evidence for anything else.

As near as I can make out, it's something like "Darwin bad!  Fossils no good!"

It's  the dead hand theory of ID a pair of twos and a pair of deadbeats. One is is the presidential mansion right now.

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 19 2017,11:32   

Re "Darwin’s Fossils" ???

Darwin's conclusions weren't based on fossils, IIRC. He was comparing current species from different places.

  
Acartia_Bogart



Posts: 2927
Joined: Sep. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 19 2017,14:03   

Quote (CeilingCat @ Oct. 19 2017,10:21)
I think News is entering her dotage.  Can anybody even figure out what she's saying here?  It's about finding 43 million year soft tissue in a Bird fossil.    
Quote
If analyzable soft tissue keeps turning up, paleontology will become a feeder field for molecular biology, which means that it can no longer be the preserve of Darwin’s Fossils, propping up their belief systems, secure in the fact that very few other people had or could get much evidence for anything else.

As near as I can make out, it's something like "Darwin bad!  Fossils no good!"

The argument they have used in the past was that if soft tissues were found, then we must be wrong about the fossilization process. If we are wrong about the fossilization process then we must be wrong about how we have interpreted the fossil record.

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 19 2017,16:57   

Sounds like they might have a bone to pick with paleontologists?

  
k.e..



Posts: 5432
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2017,01:10   

Quote (Henry J @ Oct. 20 2017,00:57)
Sounds like they might have a bone to pick with paleontologists?

Yes, and they sniffle at palynology.

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
Lethean



Posts: 292
Joined: Jan. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 20 2017,17:42   

Quote (k.e.. @ Oct. 20 2017,01:10)
Quote (Henry J @ Oct. 20 2017,00:57)
Sounds like they might have a bone to pick with paleontologists?

Yes, and they sniffle at palynology.


Which is odd given that Adam was allegedly created from dust and the "particles that are strewn" could be construed as humanity under that scenario.

--------------
"So I'm a pretty unusual guy and it's not stupidity that has gotten me where I am. It's brilliance."

"My brain is one of the very few independent thinking brains that you've ever met. And that's a thing of wonder to you and since you don't understand it you criticize it."


~Dave Hawkins~

  
Lethean



Posts: 292
Joined: Jan. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 21 2017,03:21   

Oh.  Bone.  Sniffle.

Right over my head.     :(

--------------
"So I'm a pretty unusual guy and it's not stupidity that has gotten me where I am. It's brilliance."

"My brain is one of the very few independent thinking brains that you've ever met. And that's a thing of wonder to you and since you don't understand it you criticize it."


~Dave Hawkins~

  
k.e..



Posts: 5432
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 21 2017,09:15   

Quote (Lethean @ Oct. 21 2017,11:21)
Oh.  Bone.  Sniffle.

Right over my head.     :(

what you need is a tropé.

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 2363
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 21 2017,17:54   

Quote (k.e.. @ Oct. 21 2017,09:15)
 
Quote (Lethean @ Oct. 21 2017,11:21)
Oh.  Bone.  Sniffle.

Right over my head.     :(

what you need is a tropé.

Only if he's bald.

  
sparc



Posts: 2088
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2017,01:36   

I thought all ID-creationism was just about science. So why does Denyse use the "Spread the love" line in every post?

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
sparc



Posts: 2088
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2017,01:40   

Quote (sparc @ Oct. 23 2017,01:36)
I thought all ID-creationism was just about science. So why does Denyse use the "Spread the love" line in every post?

At least KF uses the same line.

ETA: It is obviously not embarrassing for him to use the line above a post which is referring to Breitbart News

Edited by sparc on Oct. 23 2017,01:46

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
CeilingCat



Posts: 2363
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2017,11:37   

rvb8 starts a reply with this line: "News, let a little reality in please, this post is slightly less well researched than an AIG science piece."

KF replies with just about every trope and cliche in his inventory:      
Quote
RVB8, your habit of using invidious comparisons to Creationists not present to defend themselves is doubly offensive. First, the invidious comparisons, which send a not so subtle message of pushing ID into a boat in which even the same Creationists recognise it does not belong — yet another case of your speaking in insistent defiance of regard for truth you know or should know (and for correction). Second, it is an utter disgrace to do drive-by smears of those not present to defend themselves, regardless of how you may view them. I suggest that it is high time that you stop such behaviour, especially as it is part of the toxic trifecta of fallacies: red herrings led away to strawman caricatures soaked in ad hominems, to set them alight to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise the atmosphere for discussion. In the case of Wikipedia, it is a clear case of radical relativism at work on the domain of knowledge and reveals that the attitude might and manipulation make ‘truth,’ ‘right,’ ‘rights,’ ‘knowledge,’ etc is an open invitation to domineering, amoral, nihilist factions who then entrench themselves and ruthlessly oppress those they target; through agit prop tactics and the underlying cultural marxist agenda to wreck our civilisation. It is a capital public manifestation of the failure and bankruptcy of evolutionary materialistic scientism and its fellow travellers. KF

Did he miss anything?  I don't see "mafia ninja thugs attempting to pollute my bodily fluids" in there.  Anything else?

I have a theory, which is mine, that if KF ever succeeds in getting every one of his cliches into a single reply, ID will implode with a force that will suck all of Intelligent Design into a chaotic self-referential maelstrom of incredulity, indignation, poor reasoning and impotent self-righteousness that would actually be little different from it's condition today.  So let 'er blow, I guess.

Link

P.S. Of course, ba77 and News, in their 1997 paper on quantum yeast, also proved that in addition to a critical cliche mass, a reply must also be at least fifteen pages long in order to successfully implode.

  
steve_h



Posts: 544
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2017,13:05   

Quote (CeilingCat @ Oct. 25 2017,18:37)

KF replies with just about every trope and cliche in his inventory:            
Quote
RVB8, your habit of using invidious comparisons to Creationists not present to defend themselves is doubly offensive. First, the invidious comparisons, which send a not so subtle message of pushing ID into a boat in which even the same Creationists recognise it does not belong — yet another case of your speaking in insistent defiance of regard for truth you know or should know (and for correction). Second, it is an utter disgrace to do drive-by smears of those not present to defend themselves, regardless of how you may view them. I suggest that it is high time that you stop such behaviour, especially as it is part of the toxic trifecta of fallacies: red herrings led away to strawman caricatures soaked in ad hominems, to set them alight to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise the atmosphere for discussion. In the case of Wikipedia, it is a clear case of radical relativism at work on the domain of knowledge and reveals that the attitude might and manipulation make ‘truth,’ ‘right,’ ‘rights,’ ‘knowledge,’ etc is an open invitation to domineering, amoral, nihilist factions who then entrench themselves and ruthlessly oppress those they target; through agit prop tactics and the underlying cultural marxist agenda to wreck our civilisation. It is a capital public manifestation of the failure and bankruptcy of evolutionary materialistic scientism and its fellow travellers. KF

I see the good scientists at AIG have joined the galloping dead on KF's list of people you shouldn't criticise because they are not here to defend themselves.

Maybe that's why the obfuscated quote from L [[=> sounds a bit like where all the bad people go ] ... ew [[->An expression of disgust, for example ] .. ontin is conspicuously absent here.

  
sparc



Posts: 2088
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2017,13:44   

Quote (CeilingCat @ Oct. 25 2017,11:37)
rvb8 starts a reply with this line: "News, let a little reality in please, this post is slightly less well researched than an AIG science piece."

KF replies with just about every trope and cliche in his inventory:          
Quote
RVB8, your habit of using invidious comparisons to Creationists not present to defend themselves is doubly offensive. First, the invidious comparisons, which send a not so subtle message of pushing ID into a boat in which even the same Creationists recognise it does not belong — yet another case of your speaking in insistent defiance of regard for truth you know or should know (and for correction). Second, it is an utter disgrace to do drive-by smears of those not present to defend themselves, regardless of how you may view them. I suggest that it is high time that you stop such behaviour, especially as it is part of the toxic trifecta of fallacies: red herrings led away to strawman caricatures soaked in ad hominems, to set them alight to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise the atmosphere for discussion. In the case of Wikipedia, it is a clear case of radical relativism at work on the domain of knowledge and reveals that the attitude might and manipulation make ‘truth,’ ‘right,’ ‘rights,’ ‘knowledge,’ etc is an open invitation to domineering, amoral, nihilist factions who then entrench themselves and ruthlessly oppress those they target; through agit prop tactics and the underlying cultural marxist agenda to wreck our civilisation. It is a capital public manifestation of the failure and bankruptcy of evolutionary materialistic scientism and its fellow travellers. KF

Did he miss anything?  I don't see "mafia ninja thugs attempting to pollute my bodily fluids" in there.  Anything else?

I have a theory, which is mine, that if KF ever succeeds in getting every one of his cliches into a single reply, ID will implode with a force that will suck all of Intelligent Design into a chaotic self-referential maelstrom of incredulity, indignation, poor reasoning and impotent self-righteousness that would actually be little different from it's condition today.  So let 'er blow, I guess.

Link

P.S. Of course, ba77 and News, in their 1997 paper on quantum yeast, also proved that in addition to a critical cliche mass, a reply must also be at least fifteen pages long in order to successfully implode.

Montserrat is an island surrounded by water, big water, ocean water.

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2017,14:04   

Quote (steve_h @ Oct. 25 2017,11:05)
Quote (CeilingCat @ Oct. 25 2017,18:37)

KF replies with just about every trope and cliche in his inventory:              
Quote
RVB8, your habit of using invidious comparisons to Creationists not present to defend themselves is doubly offensive. First, the invidious comparisons, which send a not so subtle message of pushing ID into a boat in which even the same Creationists recognise it does not belong — yet another case of your speaking in insistent defiance of regard for truth you know or should know (and for correction). Second, it is an utter disgrace to do drive-by smears of those not present to defend themselves, regardless of how you may view them. I suggest that it is high time that you stop such behaviour, especially as it is part of the toxic trifecta of fallacies: red herrings led away to strawman caricatures soaked in ad hominems, to set them alight to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise the atmosphere for discussion. In the case of Wikipedia, it is a clear case of radical relativism at work on the domain of knowledge and reveals that the attitude might and manipulation make ‘truth,’ ‘right,’ ‘rights,’ ‘knowledge,’ etc is an open invitation to domineering, amoral, nihilist factions who then entrench themselves and ruthlessly oppress those they target; through agit prop tactics and the underlying cultural marxist agenda to wreck our civilisation. It is a capital public manifestation of the failure and bankruptcy of evolutionary materialistic scientism and its fellow travellers. KF

I see the good scientists at AIG have joined the galloping dead on KF's list of people you shouldn't criticise because they are not here to defend themselves.

Maybe that's why the obfuscated quote from L [[=> sounds a bit like where all the bad people go ] ... ew [[->An expression of disgust, for example ] .. ontin is conspicuously absent here.

I defy even the most skillful ID "scientist" to find any information in the above screed.

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 25 2017,16:01   

Fallacies come in trifectas (whatever those are).

Ad hominems are apparently liquid, if one can soak something in them.

  
Ptaylor



Posts: 1180
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 26 2017,03:19   

Quote (steve_h @ Oct. 26 2017,06:05)
...
Maybe that's why the obfuscated quote from L [[=> sounds a bit like where all the bad people go ] ... ew [[->An expression of disgust, for example ] .. ontin is conspicuously absent here.

You'll be pleased to know that KF has made up for his omission - he's followed up with a longer comment, too long to waste space pasting it all here, but ending with:
   
Quote
...        
Quote
for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door . . . [–> irreconcilable hostility to ethical theism, already caricatured as believing delusionally in imaginary demons]. [Lewontin, Billions and billions of Demons, NYRB Jan 1997,cf. here. And, if you imagine this is “quote-mined” I invite you to read the fuller annotated citation here.]


I am frankly a lot less than sure if we still have time to stop the lemming march, but silence in the face of ruinous folly is not good enough, regardless of the likelihood of actually turning back the march.

KF


Too funny.

--------------
We no longer say: “Another day; another bad day for Darwinism.” We now say: “Another day since the time Darwinism was disproved.”
-PaV, Uncommon Descent, 19 June 2016

  
Lethean



Posts: 292
Joined: Jan. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 26 2017,09:04   

If anyone reading this happens to be on the island of Montserrat could you swing by KF's and check the middle of his back for a pull string?

The ol' friendly pat on the back ruse should do the trick.

Maybe leave behind some sort of evo-mat agitprop device.



Thanks in advance.

--------------
"So I'm a pretty unusual guy and it's not stupidity that has gotten me where I am. It's brilliance."

"My brain is one of the very few independent thinking brains that you've ever met. And that's a thing of wonder to you and since you don't understand it you criticize it."


~Dave Hawkins~

  
Acartia_Bogart



Posts: 2927
Joined: Sep. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 26 2017,14:35   

Quote (Ptaylor @ Oct. 26 2017,03:19)
Quote (steve_h @ Oct. 26 2017,06:05)
...
Maybe that's why the obfuscated quote from L [[=> sounds a bit like where all the bad people go ] ... ew [[->An expression of disgust, for example ] .. ontin is conspicuously absent here.

You'll be pleased to know that KF has made up for his omission - he's followed up with a longer comment, too long to waste space pasting it all here, but ending with:
     
Quote
...          
Quote
for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door . . . [–> irreconcilable hostility to ethical theism, already caricatured as believing delusionally in imaginary demons]. [Lewontin, Billions and billions of Demons, NYRB Jan 1997,cf. here. And, if you imagine this is “quote-mined” I invite you to read the fuller annotated citation here.]


I am frankly a lot less than sure if we still have time to stop the lemming march, but silence in the face of ruinous folly is not good enough, regardless of the likelihood of actually turning back the march.

KF


Too funny.

Maybe someone should inform him that lemmings don’t actually jump over cliffs.

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 26 2017,15:17   

Quote (Acartia_Bogart @ Oct. 26 2017,12:35)
 
Quote (Ptaylor @ Oct. 26 2017,03:19)
 
Quote (steve_h @ Oct. 26 2017,06:05)
...
Maybe that's why the obfuscated quote from L [[=> sounds a bit like where all the bad people go ] ... ew [[->An expression of disgust, for example ] .. ontin is conspicuously absent here.

You'll be pleased to know that KF has made up for his omission - he's followed up with a longer comment, too long to waste space pasting it all here, but ending with:
       
Quote
...            
Quote
for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door . . . [–> irreconcilable hostility to ethical theism, already caricatured as believing delusionally in imaginary demons]. [Lewontin, Billions and billions of Demons, NYRB Jan 1997,cf. here. And, if you imagine this is “quote-mined” I invite you to read the fuller annotated citation here.]


I am frankly a lot less than sure if we still have time to stop the lemming march, but silence in the face of ruinous folly is not good enough, regardless of the likelihood of actually turning back the march.

KF


Too funny.

Maybe someone should inform him that lemmings don’t actually jump over cliffs.

They do if Gordon's talking to them.



Edited by stevestory on Oct. 29 2017,13:56

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
sparc



Posts: 2088
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2017,01:34   

Quote (JohnW @ Oct. 26 2017,15:17)
Quote (Acartia_Bogart @ Oct. 26 2017,12:35)
Quote (Ptaylor @ Oct. 26 2017,03:19)
 
Quote (steve_h @ Oct. 26 2017,06:05)
...
Maybe that's why the obfuscated quote from L [[=> sounds a bit like where all the bad people go ] ... ew [[->An expression of disgust, for example ] .. ontin is conspicuously absent here.

You'll be pleased to know that KF has made up for his omission - he's followed up with a longer comment, too long to waste space pasting it all here, but ending with:
       
Quote
...            
Quote
for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door . . . [–> irreconcilable hostility to ethical theism, already caricatured as believing delusionally in imaginary demons]. [Lewontin, Billions and billions of Demons, NYRB Jan 1997,cf. here. And, if you imagine this is “quote-mined” I invite you to read the fuller annotated citation here.]


I am frankly a lot less than sure if we still have time to stop the lemming march, but silence in the face of ruinous folly is not good enough, regardless of the likelihood of actually turning back the march.

KF


Too funny.

Maybe someone should inform him that lemmings don’t actually jump over cliffs.

They do if Gordon's talking to them.

Any cliffs on Motserrat?

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
Bob O'H



Posts: 2564
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2017,02:03   

In the middle of an informative post on the immune system, johnnyb comes out with this:
Quote
What I tell people is that I will be happy to agree with them that this process is 0.00007% random if they will agree with me that it is 99.99993% designed. That usually ends the conversation.


--------------
It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
k.e..



Posts: 5432
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2017,06:17   

Quote (Bob O'H @ Oct. 27 2017,10:03)
In the middle of an informative post on the immune system, johnnyb comes out with this:
     
Quote
What I tell people is that I will be happy to agree with them that this process is 0.00007% random if they will agree with me that it is 99.99993% designed. That usually ends the conversation.

giggle Is there a statistician in the house? Given a 99.99993 percent probability of no mutation in a population of bacteria offspring's  new generation, say every 30 minutes, how many minutes will it take to see a new mutation?

Better still over the age of life on earth, say 4 billion years give or take , how many unique offspring of that apocryphal cellular life could there be now?

**** For Gordo who graduated to totalizator repair man adjusting trifectas ..... how much wood could a wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck could chuck wood.


ETF: Groan .... grammar, math and readability

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 27 2017,23:30   

Well, if that probability is raised to a power around a million, then you get a probability somewhere around a half.

If that probability is per individual, well, bacteria have a lot of individuals. (i.e., we're outnumbered, out-massed, and outgunned by them. )

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 2363
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 28 2017,23:27   

Lewontin!

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 29 2017,13:26   

Quote
6
rvb8October 26, 2017 at 6:53 pm
I say we use the ID approach for all future scientific investigations.

Let’s call it the, “Don’t know, can’t know.”, approach.

This approach will identify all of the irreducibly complex systems in nature, and ignore them.

By this approach we will prove that the evolved curiosity of humanity should be reigned in by superstition, and faith.

I’m not sure if this will advance humanity’s understanding of the natural world, but it will certainly be inoffencive, to the credulous, at least.
linky

   
Acartia_Bogart



Posts: 2927
Joined: Sep. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 29 2017,15:32   

Quote (CeilingCat @ Oct. 28 2017,23:27)
Lewontin!

I’m holding out for Plato’s cave.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 29 2017,16:12   

shouldn't we make KF Bingo cards?

   
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