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Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2008,17:52   

Quote (George @ July 14 2008,20:13)
Quote (Louis @ July 14 2008,13:26)
Well as an atheist, chemical scientist there isn't really much of your $0.02 that I would disagree with.

At least not too strongly, and even then I reckon it would be an "ironing out of details" rather than a disagreement. ;-)

Although the tendancy to claim that you have been personally insulted by someone not cherishing the ideas and things you do in the manner you do is, to be blunt, a very destructive error however heartfelt. An error we ALL are liable to commit (myself included) but nonetheless, to some extent, an error.

Like I said above, the thing that interested me was/is the hyperbole, poor argumentation and strawmen being chucked about. Whosoever is chucking it about. Ascribing positions to people that they simply do not hold, and dogmatically insisting on adhering to that misattribution is the hallmark of intellectual dishonesty.

Do I sympathise with PZ's comments? Perhaps in some instances. Would I do the same thing the same way? Perhaps in some instances. It rather depends on whether or not it needs to be done. Does this mean I agree with every word and nuance. NO! And I suppose that is the crux of it all.

One of the things that PZ has 100% correct though is that there is a carapace of protection surrounding religious ideas and claims. The cry of "offense" is terribly easy to make and so often made that any power it has is lost on those of us who have sussed the trick. Is such protection needed? Will revealing the Emperor's nudity cause cataclysmic social decoherence? I'm not sure. But what I AM sure of is that that protection, and those ideas, demand challenge like any other idea. They need to evolve. No pun intended.

Louis

To clarify, it's not the "not cherishing" that's insulting, it's the action or the words coupled with intent.  And really, if someone's intent is to insult, then in one sense, the "incorrect" one, it's definitely not an error to feel insulted.  But in the "mistake" sense, I would agree that it's best not to take things personally.  I've thick enough skin in that way.

I'd agree with your and PZ's view of the privileged position of religion wrt the defense of "offense".  I'd widen it to say that those claiming moral offense without explicitly bringing religion into it are similarly privileged.  Why is it that the most prudish and squeamish members of society get to make the rules on things like "foul" language and "indecent" dress?  Goes without saying here at least that any religious based empirical claims should be examined just as rigourously as secular ones.

LOL I was being mildly delicate with the "not cherishing"!

;-)

The argumentum ad hominem fallacy confuses the person with the validity of their argument. I reckon the reverse is also a fallacy if you see what I mean. I.e. that criticism of the idea/argument =/= criticism of the person. I am perfectly content to respect my religious friends, I am not however perfectly content to respect their religions. Mind you I'm also perfectly happy for them not to respect any of my daft ideas! Not that religious ideas are necessarily daft....oh for fuck's sake you know what I mean dammit!

Although your point about intent (especially when it's obviously offensive) is well taken.

Your mention of "honey", "vinegar" and NOMA in a following post rang bells. ;-) I think very few of the "committed atheists" you mention forget the difference between honey and vinegar. But there areseholes in every group. I don't even think "commited atheists" exist, it's pretty hard to be commited to a lack of belief in something. Intolerant atheists on the other hand, abound! I'm probably one of them!

As for NOMA and religious claims (not just empirical ones)....well I think we know what I think about that!

Oh well!

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Amadan



Posts: 1334
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2008,18:04   

Can science be overturned? Interesting Q.

As I understand it, the first thing a scientist has to do before brushing his/her teeth in the morning is to say "I might be wrong".

I am a lawyer qualified to practise in three jurisdictions. As an exercise for the reader, I leave it to you to estimate the arrogance-withdrawal that would provoke in me.

Empirical observation is something we all do reflexively and throughout our lives. But then if you subject the inferences you draw from it to the withering criticism of others who seek the same advantages that you do, even while you are constrained by the need to limit your deductions to those supportable by earlier data and by legitimate mathematics, you come as close as I care to define to "actuality".

"Disproving" science is not a matter of preference, in the sense of asking "Who do you want to tell you what it's all about". It's a question of epistemology: Do you think this statement is objectively verifiable?

If you want to "disprove" science, you also want to shut your eyes and hope the clerk gives you the right change, design your own wing for the plane using Impressionist paintings as your guide, and take up that intriguing offer from Emperor Bokassa's nephew with the locked bank account.

--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2008,07:28   

Melanie Kroll, from whose 1800flowers Email account came the posted death threat to PZ, has been fired:

 
Quote
On Monday, Kroll send Myers a confusing e-mail, explaining that while the threat was sent from her computer, but that she didn't write it. "It seems an e-mail went out from my work account," she wrote in an e-mail message obtained by IDG News. "I apologize and will look into the issue."

She said that her work e-mail was set as the default address on her computer and that is why the it appeared to come from her, adding that the threat was "empty" because "the people who could have used my PC are harmless."

After an internal investigation, the Internet retailer decided to terminate Kroll's position, according to Steven Jarmon, the company's vice president of brand communications. "All 1-800-Flowers.com associates are instructed that any misuse of company systems or equipment for personal purposes is potential grounds for dismissal," he wrote in an e-mail.


ETA: ckroll purports to be the perp

Edited by Lou FCD on July 16 2008,08:37

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

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Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2008,09:39   

Quote (Amadan @ July 15 2008,00:04)
Can science be overturned? Interesting Q.

As I understand it, the first thing a scientist has to do before brushing his/her teeth in the morning is to say "I might be wrong".

I am a lawyer qualified to practise in three jurisdictions. As an exercise for the reader, I leave it to you to estimate the arrogance-withdrawal that would provoke in me.

Empirical observation is something we all do reflexively and throughout our lives. But then if you subject the inferences you draw from it to the withering criticism of others who seek the same advantages that you do, even while you are constrained by the need to limit your deductions to those supportable by earlier data and by legitimate mathematics, you come as close as I care to define to "actuality".

"Disproving" science is not a matter of preference, in the sense of asking "Who do you want to tell you what it's all about". It's a question of epistemology: Do you think this statement is objectively verifiable?

If you want to "disprove" science, you also want to shut your eyes and hope the clerk gives you the right change, design your own wing for the plane using Impressionist paintings as your guide, and take up that intriguing offer from Emperor Bokassa's nephew with the locked bank account.

Amadan,

This is a good point well made, and it cannot be made enough IMO.

The nasty part of me occasionally dreams of a world in which those people who make a nuisance of themselves by denying reality are forced to live with the consequences in all sorts of comedy ways. Also the abject hypocrisy of the faux relativist/anti-science/anti-reason position is not lost on anyone I hope.

Then the sensible part of me remembers that I am an egalitarian, liberal minded sort of chap and that the nasty part of me better just shut up and deal with it!

Science: It works, bitches!

There is one tiny thing I wish to take issue with: This "before brushing your teeth" stuff. Any chance you could mention this action to some of my more personal hygeine challenged colleagues? Some of them are very eminent scientists, and also quite frequently wrong and humble about it, but one does wonder if smelling like a dead badger is part of the package. I ask myself: will I win the Nobel prize if I stop washing? I then ask myself: if so, will anyone turn up if I do?

Louis

P.S. Lou. This person lost their job? I can't say I'm happy, I'm never happy when someone loses their job even if it is by their own amazing stupidity, but if people are going to use work email to send death threats, I think job loss is a pretty good start!

ETA: Modify the above P.S. I should have read further. It seem this lady's husband (or some male with the same surname and access to her PC) accidentally wrote the mail using her work account. Whoa. Now that IS not only dumb but downright BAD. Thus, IMO, sacking her is a bit harsh, a (metaphorical!) rap on the knuckles is probably sufficient. This chap on the other hand is so hypocritically unrepentant (and has a bad case of Fatwah Envy one notes) I hope this lady in his life gives him a large barrel of grief!

FETA: Well, I didn't send an email calling for Kroll's head (like many others, I think the very idea of doing so ridiculous no matter WHO does it), but I WILL be sending an email asking 1-800-Flowers to reinstate her.

Not because I disagree with PZ (I don't). Not because I think death threats via email are acceptable (I don't). And not because I think that she isn't at least partly responsible for all the good reasons people mention on the Pharyngula thread (I do think she is partly responsible).

The reason I'll send the email is because I hope she gets her job back, times are hard and she shouldn't lose her job over what is essentially a relatively minor error of PC security. Simple human compassion (and like Greg Laden, a general dislike of the "rules" being applied so apparently thoughtlessly. People fuck up: deal with it because sure as hell you fuck up too).

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Bye.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2008,11:00   

Quote (Louis @ July 16 2008,09:39)
The reason I'll send the email is because I hope she gets her job back, times are hard and she shouldn't lose her job over what is essentially a relatively minor error of PC security. Simple human compassion (and like Greg Laden, a general dislike of the "rules" being applied so apparently thoughtlessly. People fuck up: deal with it because sure as hell you fuck up too).

Louis:

Outstanding sentiment, well said.

However, you have, in one single post destroyed your hard-won image as a kick-ass Evolution-Loving Christian Hating Darwinist.

How will ftk be hating on you now?  You should have thought about the fallout before you posted.  Forcing ftk to change her world-view and possibly forcing her to re-think things may bring about the end-times, or at least a shift in the tard-force of the universe.

Way to go.  I applaud you!

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2008,11:15   

Quote (J-Dog @ July 16 2008,17:00)
Quote (Louis @ July 16 2008,09:39)
The reason I'll send the email is because I hope she gets her job back, times are hard and she shouldn't lose her job over what is essentially a relatively minor error of PC security. Simple human compassion (and like Greg Laden, a general dislike of the "rules" being applied so apparently thoughtlessly. People fuck up: deal with it because sure as hell you fuck up too).

Louis:

Outstanding sentiment, well said.

However, you have, in one single post destroyed your hard-won image as a kick-ass Evolution-Loving Christian Hating Darwinist.

How will ftk be hating on you now?  You should have thought about the fallout before you posted.  Forcing ftk to change her world-view and possibly forcing her to re-think things may bring about the end-times, or at least a shift in the tard-force of the universe.

Way to go.  I applaud you!

Oh I'm still a total bastard, have no fear....well, actually, have lots of fear....but I digress.

Anyway, she won't read it, and if she does, she won't notice it or believe it. Projection of her own inadequacies is one of FTK's most endearing traits.

And, it would appear, Chuck Kroll's too, as evidenced by his staggeringly unpleasant Notpology.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2008,11:55   

Apparently, Melanie herself has shown up at Greg Laden's Blog.

ETA her comment, in its entirety:

Quote
First off, it is amazing at all the speculation out there. Number one, i will not be leaving my husband due to this mistake. Number two he is not a crazy lunatic, but a very passionate man when it comes to his party and his religion. He's a great person, great father and yes feels absolutely horrible about what has happened to me. As his wife, am i worried about any threats.. no i am not as i know it was just a rage via email. Did he directly threaten anyones life, no he did not. In any case, the tone and text of the email was not appropriate and he did send an email apology to PZ. For the record and i do not owe anyone anything.. i was on vacation until 7/14, i was called on friday evening and informed that some work was due and the deadline was monday morning. I was also apologized to for being asked to work during my vacation of which i take far and few between. I came in during my vacation as a courtesy to my flowers team. I use my own personal pc for work and yes I do work from home as a sales and service manager. I am extremely careful with my applications and have been a valued ( thought i was) employee for 7 years. Once i completed what i needed to do, i logged off ALL applications. My email is password protected, my RSA log in is password protected as well as my VPN and NO ONE has my complex passwords. My husband went on to the drudge report site that he reads and clicked on a link and came across that man pz's notice and responded as he always does when he is upset. Was his text extreme yes it was, would he follow through, never. I want to clear the air and tried to with my company. I was not logged into work when this happened and somehow when i logged off my exchange server email i use i set it as my default (must have clicked on yes as it does ask upon sigh in). So when my husband click on the email address to respond to the newsletter it was coming from flowers email. I am not sure how as i was not connected to VPN but that is neither here nor there and something i will take up with them. My personal email(optonline) has always been my default. No excuses here folks, this is what went down. I have nothing to hide and no reason or desire to note these blogs. If i hadn't been the dedicated employee i was i would have said "heck no, im not working on my vacation" but i am not the type and felt it my duty to make sure my annual reviews were in time for my team members to receive their annual raises. As for 1-800-Flowers, they are a wonderful company and have always been good to me and my family. They do offer a great service and i sure hope you utilitze them or continue to do so if you are a current customer. On that note, you have no way of knowing if this is me or not, but i can assure you it is. Everyone has their opinions but the things that have been posted about my company and myself are herrendous and quite frankly is making me physically ill. Please enough with the harsh comments about me, my husband and my former employer.


Edited by Lou FCD on July 16 2008,12:58

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

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Lou FCD



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2008,13:17   

It would appear that this is not Mr. Kroll's first go 'round with online death threats.

 
Quote
A few posters have found previous examples of Chuck Kroll threatening people online, and posted links from the Pharyngula blog. Not the first time Mr. Kroll has threatened to kill someone online, assuming that it's the same one.

 
Quote
"I'm coming after you. And I'm putting it in writing, I don't care. God help your fagot communist ass if something happens to even one of those brave kids. I know where you work, it can't be that hard to find someone as ugly as you...You had better pray (opps sorry bad word for you darwinist's)that nothing happens to even one of those kids on our ships or I will take you out myself, and stand over your body to the police arrive. No jury in this nation would convict me I'm sure. You Bastard.

Yours,

Chuck kroll
huntington bay ny"


ETA:  Original comment, made in 2006

Edited by Lou FCD on July 16 2008,14:25

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
Texas Teach



Posts: 1502
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2008,13:49   

It sounds like we need to sign Chuck up for the Internet Tough Guy Olympics.  Imagine getting him to compete against DaveTard (and his dogs).

--------------
"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
dnmlthr



Posts: 565
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2008,13:57   

Quote (Texas Teach @ July 16 2008,19:49)
It sounds like we need to sign Chuck up for the Internet Tough Guy Olympics.  Imagine getting him to compete against DaveTard (and his dogs).



It would be... wonderful!

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Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2008,14:24   

Quote (Texas Teach @ July 16 2008,13:49)
It sounds like we need to sign Chuck up for the Internet Tough Guy Olympics.  Imagine getting him to compete against DaveTard (and his dogs).

I'd say that Our Davie is more intelligent and better educated by a couple degrees of magnitude than Chuckie, but hey, I'd pay good money or crackers, for a view of the cage match.  

It's a win -win.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2008,14:31   

Quote (dnmlthr @ July 16 2008,13:57)
Quote (Texas Teach @ July 16 2008,19:49)
It sounds like we need to sign Chuck up for the Internet Tough Guy Olympics.  Imagine getting him to compete against DaveTard (and his dogs).



It would be... wonderful!

Hey, watch what pictures you post!  We don't want the Ghost of Paley to reappear.  :p

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
dnmlthr



Posts: 565
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2008,17:37   

Another suspected Krolling posted over at pharyngula.

 
Quote

   this woman who is the principle of this middle school should be fired on the spot, ther is no need to make a determination to who is responsible. When the person in charge of the school is responsible.

   You see womwn can not have it both way, demand equality and respect, then ask for understanding because " I was flustered by a reporters phone call". If she get's flustered by a phone call, then imagine how she would handle a terror situation, or an emergency.

   perhaps this will make some people in this state wake up, and see that these people we have abdicated our parental duties to, could care less about these children.

   As long as they can get their six to seven months a year off, teach our kids that America sucks and it's ok to have two mommies public education is fine, but if you want good old fashion morals reading, writting and math skills. well that's another thing.

   What's next field trips to whore houses.

   Let's wake up New Hampshire, and let's do what we shoud have done a long time ago, run all these scum bag socialists from our state back to mass where they belong
   - chuck kroll, manchester


Emphasis mine. If it's the same guy it seems to me that he would benefit from taking a walk between writing and pressing submit.

As for Melanie Kroll getting her job back, yeah why not cut her some slack but at the same time I don't find it too plausible.
Whatever negligence displayed on her part has set off a chain reaction that has resulted in alot of negative attention ending up in the lap of her employers. At the very least they've ended up being the butt of alot of bad jokes.

Having been on the clean-up side, albeit on the technical side, after clear breaches of policy, it's just plain bad all around.

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Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
khan



Posts: 1528
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2008,19:06   

Quote (Lou FCD @ July 16 2008,12:55)
Apparently, Melanie herself has shown up at Greg Laden's Blog.

ETA her comment, in its entirety:

 
Quote
First off, it is amazing at all the speculation out there. Number one, i will not be leaving my husband due to this mistake. Number two he is not a crazy lunatic, but a very passionate man when it comes to his party and his religion. He's a great person, great father and yes feels absolutely horrible about what has happened to me. As his wife, am i worried about any threats.. no i am not as i know it was just a rage via email. Did he directly threaten anyones life, no he did not. In any case, the tone and text of the email was not appropriate and he did send an email apology to PZ. For the record and i do not owe anyone anything.. i was on vacation until 7/14, i was called on friday evening and informed that some work was due and the deadline was monday morning. I was also apologized to for being asked to work during my vacation of which i take far and few between. I came in during my vacation as a courtesy to my flowers team. I use my own personal pc for work and yes I do work from home as a sales and service manager. I am extremely careful with my applications and have been a valued ( thought i was) employee for 7 years. Once i completed what i needed to do, i logged off ALL applications. My email is password protected, my RSA log in is password protected as well as my VPN and NO ONE has my complex passwords. My husband went on to the drudge report site that he reads and clicked on a link and came across that man pz's notice and responded as he always does when he is upset. Was his text extreme yes it was, would he follow through, never. I want to clear the air and tried to with my company. I was not logged into work when this happened and somehow when i logged off my exchange server email i use i set it as my default (must have clicked on yes as it does ask upon sigh in). So when my husband click on the email address to respond to the newsletter it was coming from flowers email. I am not sure how as i was not connected to VPN but that is neither here nor there and something i will take up with them. My personal email(optonline) has always been my default. No excuses here folks, this is what went down. I have nothing to hide and no reason or desire to note these blogs. If i hadn't been the dedicated employee i was i would have said "heck no, im not working on my vacation" but i am not the type and felt it my duty to make sure my annual reviews were in time for my team members to receive their annual raises. As for 1-800-Flowers, they are a wonderful company and have always been good to me and my family. They do offer a great service and i sure hope you utilitze them or continue to do so if you are a current customer. On that note, you have no way of knowing if this is me or not, but i can assure you it is. Everyone has their opinions but the things that have been posted about my company and myself are herrendous and quite frankly is making me physically ill. Please enough with the harsh comments about me, my husband and my former employer.

If true, that is one messed up dude.

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
SoonerintheBluegrass



Posts: 39
Joined: May 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2008,19:16   

Longtime lurker, first time caller.  I humbly submit . . .  Can we change this thread name to "Crackers Don't Matter"?

(I love that episode, and it's so apropos)

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"And heaven will smell like the airport
But I may not get there to prove it
So let's not waste our time thinking how that ain't fair."

Neko Case

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2008,20:01   

Quote (SoonerintheBluegrass @ July 16 2008,20:16)
Longtime lurker, first time caller.  I humbly submit . . .  Can we change this thread name to "Crackers Don't Matter"?

(I love that episode, and it's so apropos)

Hi SoonerintheBluegrass.  Glad you've started posting.

We'll wait and see what Dr. GH says.  It's his thread, and I don't wanna step on his toes.  I like him a lot, and I don't want him mad at me.

I hear he eats people on his shit list.  He even has blog named "Stones and Bones".  (It should be in your feed reader if it's not already.)  If that don't put the fear of the FSM in you, I don't know what will.

But if he's all good with it, then I'm all good with it.

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

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qetzal



Posts: 311
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2008,20:20   

Quote (Louis @ July 16 2008,09:39)
There is one tiny thing I wish to take issue with: This "before brushing your teeth" stuff. Any chance you could mention this action to some of my more personal hygeine challenged colleagues? Some of them are very eminent scientists, and also quite frequently wrong and humble about it, but one does wonder if smelling like a dead badger is part of the package.

Louis

Maybe it's akin to evolutionary traits like the peacock's tail. Along the lines of, "I'm such a badass scientist that I can be successful even while smelling like a dead badger. Better not challenge me at the next departmental meeting!"

:p

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2008,04:08   

Quote (qetzal @ July 17 2008,02:20)
Quote (Louis @ July 16 2008,09:39)
There is one tiny thing I wish to take issue with: This "before brushing your teeth" stuff. Any chance you could mention this action to some of my more personal hygeine challenged colleagues? Some of them are very eminent scientists, and also quite frequently wrong and humble about it, but one does wonder if smelling like a dead badger is part of the package.

Louis

Maybe it's akin to evolutionary traits like the peacock's tail. Along the lines of, "I'm such a badass scientist that I can be successful even while smelling like a dead badger. Better not challenge me at the next departmental meeting!"

:p

A very good point. There is no way this can be due to sexual selection like the peacock's tail, perhaps you've discovered a new mode of selection: Revulsion Deselection?

There's probably a better name out there, but the coffee has yet to kick in, I'll be imaginative later.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Quidam



Posts: 229
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2008,11:38   

Back to topic.  

Melanie Kroll was not responsible for writing the death threat and she was not fired for that. She was responsible for breaking  1800Flowers policy and for that she lost her job.  

Everyone seems to be assuming that Melanie, being a woman and all, is a nice person and innocent victim of a violent and abusive husband.  This may be the case but it's speculation.  It's just as likely that she fully agrees with her husband's sentiments and has been bothering other employees and customer.  That is also speculation

Quite why people think they should advise 1800flowers on a personnel matter is beyond me.  We know very little about Melanie Kroll and 1800flowers and this is (should be) a private matter.  

I have unfortunately had to fire people for repeated infractions of IT security policy, fortunately none resulted in the publicity that Melanie's negligence had for 1800flowers.  I know that I would not take kindly to strangers, who know little of the circumstances and history, giving me unsolicited advice.

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The organized fossils ... and their localities also, may be understood by all, even the most illiterate. William Smith, Strata. 1816

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2008,12:41   

Quote (Quidam @ July 17 2008,17:38)
Back to topic.  

Melanie Kroll was not responsible for writing the death threat and she was not fired for that. She was responsible for breaking  1800Flowers policy and for that she lost her job.  

Everyone seems to be assuming that Melanie, being a woman and all, is a nice person and innocent victim of a violent and abusive husband.  This may be the case but it's speculation.  It's just as likely that she fully agrees with her husband's sentiments and has been bothering other employees and customer.  That is also speculation

Quite why people think they should advise 1800flowers on a personnel matter is beyond me.  We know very little about Melanie Kroll and 1800flowers and this is (should be) a private matter.  

I have unfortunately had to fire people for repeated infractions of IT security policy, fortunately none resulted in the publicity that Melanie's negligence had for 1800flowers.  I know that I would not take kindly to strangers, who know little of the circumstances and history, giving me unsolicited advice.

Hi Quidam,

I think "advise"/"advice", at least in my case, is possibly too strong a term. "Delicate request to go perhaps easier(circumstances and history permitting) on her". Yes it IS presumptuous and yes it IS probably more than a bit cheeky, but if some people are willing to send emails calling for her head (not that I did) I think it's only fair that some people are willing to send emails calling for leniency over what is ultimately a total storm in a teacup. The whole shebang has been sublimely ridiculous IMO. PZ's comments were pretty innocuous, and the "he was trying to get people to steal hosts and persecute catholics the bigot" brigade are just off the planet.

Anyway, she is quite possibly an innocent victim of her husband's vicious stupidity and what at best could be only a mild lapse on her part. Of course it could be any number of permutations more damning than that, but I'm a firm supporter of innocent until proven guilty. She might share her husbands odious bigotry but then she might not, I simply don't know and thus grant her the benefit of the doubt. I've never denied that my assumption of her innocence is anything but the purest speculation, and I never would! I hope I'm not proven wrong but I rather suspect probably will be!

BTW I agree with all the other points you make, I just think summary dismissal (though I fully understand the justification in this case) is pretty harsh. I think that there are alternatives to be used before sacking someone. (BTW I am responsible for hiring and firing in my current position, and I've done both. I prefer not to fire unless I really have to. Like creationists, potential firees get three strikes!) I especially agree that a lot what people (myself included) have written about M Kroll (good, bad or indifferent) has been pure speculation, hence my plea for clemency: in the absence of any evidence of anything unpleasant I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt.

Coming from such a dedicated and unrepentant bastard as myself this may seem mildly incongruous, perhaps even self-contradictory, but I assure you it isn't. The ridiculousness of this situation made me curious, which is pretty much the only reason I commented on it. The baying hoardes of PZ haters and the more ridiculous Pharyngulites crying for the blood of the sender of an disgustingly nasty (felonious) email by emailing their boss disgusted me in nearly equal measure. The hypocrisy the baying catholic hoardes amazed me and the lack of anything approach a liberal will in my peers annoyed me.

Rome is the mob. Rather depressingly so.

Louis

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Bye.

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2137
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2008,12:54   

Quote (Lou FCD @ July 16 2008,18:01)
Quote (SoonerintheBluegrass @ July 16 2008,20:16)
Longtime lurker, first time caller.  I humbly submit . . .  Can we change this thread name to "Crackers Don't Matter"?

(I love that episode, and it's so apropos)

Hi SoonerintheBluegrass.  Glad you've started posting.

We'll wait and see what Dr. GH says.  It's his thread, and I don't wanna step on his toes.  I like him a lot, and I don't want him mad at me.

I hear he eats people on his shit list.  He even has blog named "Stones and Bones".  (It should be in your feed reader if it's not already.)  If that don't put the fear of the FSM in you, I don't know what will.

But if he's all good with it, then I'm all good with it.

Fine with me. I am going on the ocean tonight into the weekend to kill things. Grrrr

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
ReligionProf



Posts: 33
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2008,13:08   

I finally got around to posting a Biblical studies perspective on the P.Z.Myers vs. the cracker issue:

http://exploringourmatrix.blogspot.com/2008....rs.html

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http://www.patheos.com/communi....rmatrix

   
Quidam



Posts: 229
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2008,15:16   

Quote (Louis @ July 17 2008,11:41)
if some people are willing to send emails calling for her head (not that I did)
Neither did I.

Quote (Louis @ July 17 2008,11:41)

Anyway, she is quite possibly an innocent victim of her husband's vicious stupidity and what at best could be only a mild lapse on her part. Of course it could be any number of permutations more damning than that, but I'm a firm supporter of innocent until proven guilty. She might share her husbands odious bigotry but then she might not, I simply don't know and thus grant her the benefit of the doubt. I've never denied that my assumption of her innocence is anything but the purest speculation, and I never would! I hope I'm not proven wrong but I rather suspect probably will be!

Then your appeal for clemency is based on no information and is meaningless.  You may presume innocence, but you have no responsibility or jurisdiction in the matter.  The people who do, have investigated and made a decision, based on information we are not privy to.

1800Flowers deals with online customers and stores credit card information, addresses and personal information from customers.  Their credibility has taken an enormous hit when nutjobs can apparently access their servers at will.  From Melanie's post she has to connect via a VPN to send or receive email, either she failed to disconnect when done or her computer is set to autoconnect.  That is a significant breach of security with potentially serious consequences.   I'm glad I'm not a customer of theirs with my credit card information accessible to the likes of Chuck.

So I'm going to let them make their own informed decision on this internal personnel matter and not presume to advise them.

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The organized fossils ... and their localities also, may be understood by all, even the most illiterate. William Smith, Strata. 1816

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2008,18:13   

My two cents, but I'm always right;  by definition!

Many corporations over the years have implemented strict email policies.  In a corporation I know, the nicest, sweetest, most inoffensive, all-round wonderful administrative assistant was given a week WITHOUT PAY for sending a family-oriented, G-rated cartoon from her work account that was picked up in a random search by a email sniffer bot.  The rules allowed for reasonable personal email like soccer schedules or notes to the family about shopping, but sending out cartoons, jokes, chain letters, etc were considered over the line.

Sending out a threat, even if one could weasel-word it with a nixplanatory filter to be a not-threat, would be grounds for immediate termination.

Furthermore, he said, one is responsible for one's email account. No excuses.

Once a company is made aware of a breach of policy, they must act or the policy serves no purpose.

So, whether it was fair of not for M Kroll to get canned is immaterial.  She violated her company's email policy and suffered the consequences.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4902
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2008,18:39   

It looks like one of the Krolls is stating that Melanie well knew the sort of things that Chuck would post. "Get your own computer and email account" should have been something Melanie worked out long, long ago.

Now would be a good time to do at least that, if not getting a restraining order or similar distancing method.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
rhmc



Posts: 340
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2008,18:43   

Quote (Dr.GH @ July 17 2008,13:54)
Fine with me. I am going on the ocean tonight into the weekend to kill things. Grrrr

kill something tasty for me.

  
rhmc



Posts: 340
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2008,18:56   

Quote (ReligionProf @ July 17 2008,14:08)
I finally got around to posting a Biblical studies perspective on the P.Z.Myers vs. the cracker issue:

http://exploringourmatrix.blogspot.com/2008....rs.html

good view on the situation.  thanks.

  
dhogaza



Posts: 525
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 18 2008,03:50   

Quote
Fine with me. I am going on the ocean tonight into the weekend to kill things. Grrrr


May the Host be with you, cracker ...

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 18 2008,04:02   

Quote (Quidam @ July 17 2008,21:16)
Quote (Louis @ July 17 2008,11:41)
if some people are willing to send emails calling for her head (not that I did)
Neither did I.

 
Quote (Louis @ July 17 2008,11:41)

Anyway, she is quite possibly an innocent victim of her husband's vicious stupidity and what at best could be only a mild lapse on her part. Of course it could be any number of permutations more damning than that, but I'm a firm supporter of innocent until proven guilty. She might share her husbands odious bigotry but then she might not, I simply don't know and thus grant her the benefit of the doubt. I've never denied that my assumption of her innocence is anything but the purest speculation, and I never would! I hope I'm not proven wrong but I rather suspect probably will be!

Then your appeal for clemency is based on no information and is meaningless.  You may presume innocence, but you have no responsibility or jurisdiction in the matter.  The people who do, have investigated and made a decision, based on information we are not privy to.

1800Flowers deals with online customers and stores credit card information, addresses and personal information from customers.  Their credibility has taken an enormous hit when nutjobs can apparently access their servers at will.  From Melanie's post she has to connect via a VPN to send or receive email, either she failed to disconnect when done or her computer is set to autoconnect.  That is a significant breach of security with potentially serious consequences.   I'm glad I'm not a customer of theirs with my credit card information accessible to the likes of Chuck.

So I'm going to let them make their own informed decision on this internal personnel matter and not presume to advise them.

Hi Quidam,

I think you've missed my point.

I'm not presuming to *advise* 1-800-Flowers, nor would I. Not only that I agree with basically eveything you've said about internal procedures/culpability/potential security risk etc. Our disagreement isn't about the facts of the case that we know, but about the things we don;t know and actions based upon them. Please don't insist on your interpretation of my words (and using a word I have expressedly not used, nor anything close to its meaning) when I've made what I mean abundantly clear.

I *know* that I know very few (if any) of the details which is precisely why I appealed for clemency, if I had all the details then any appeal for clemency would be meaningless, quite the reverse of what you think in fact, because I could follow the justification for it rather than imagining what it might be. Advise is vastly too strong a term, to the point of meaning something else entirely. You seem also to be assuming that I think 1-800-Flowers will give a shit about my email (or anyone else's for that matter), I don't. I'm also in no position to "let" them make a decision or not, I have no illusions about my ability to influence their decision.

My question is, and remains so if it wasn't clear from the implication in previous posts, where was your outrage when people were emailing 1-800-Flowers calling for M Kroll's head? Pretty much every (perfectly correct) justification for not emailing them you make applies equally to that. Do the people who sent her employer an email calling for her firing deserve some kind of free pass because they were dealing with a potential felony? If that's the case I'd like to report that not only have I speeded when driving, I've parked illegally, loitered with intent, taken a wide array of illegal chemicals, made explosives, caused detenations and a whole slew of other crimes that come under headings as diverse as misdemeanour and terrorism. That's not even counting activist and protesting work I've done! Please insist that Wesley release my email address (which contains my easily searchable surname) and contact my local constabulary. I support you fully in your desire to have me convicted of crimes I will happily admit to.

My point is that if it is presumptuous for ME to contact 1-800-Flowers pleading for clemency (and I agree that it is) it was at least as presumptuous for hoardes of Pharyngulites to contact them calling for blood. The thin veneer of "legal justification" doesn't wash, and IMO is a cover for the worst kind of hypocrisy. If we are willing to get energised to tear something down I think we need also to be willing to get energised to build something up. It's the mob mentality I dislike, the baying hoardes of any stripe. It is, to me, the worst kind of human irrationality. In group/Out group identification, cooperative "violence" etc, these are deep seated reactions to certain situations that we, as humans, possess, and I am a firm advocate of combatting them wherever possible. It seems that many people's compassion extended to someone they agree with (PZ. How horrible and illegal it was to receive death threats) but not to someone they don't agree with (M Kroll. How justified and wonderful she lost her job). Don't you find the very thin justifications to attack someone we disagree with ever so slightly transparent?

Two final things.

1) I am in no way saying that M Kroll's job loss is professionally unjustified. It most likely is. 1-800-Flowers are probably perfectly adhering to their internal policies, I have little doubt that they have come to a decision that is perfectly clear by those policies. The point is slightly more obtuse than that! Nor am I equating M Kroll's an PZ's positions. They aren't equal.

2) On the computing facts of the case: I don't think I have (or would) dispute the POTENTIAL seriousness of such a security break down. Do you have any concrete evidence of the negative consequences you mention? Do you have any evidence of the "enormous hit" 1-800-Flowers' credibility has taken? Or is your support for both just anecdotal? Bear in mind that when I say this I am AGREEING with both of these things. I see precisely how credibility could be hit by this, and it most likely has been, and I am well aware of the potential crimes based on poor IT security (having been a victim of ID fraud a few years ago). My point here is that we're ALL speculating about the potential costs and facts of this stupid incident, and some are as quick to damn as they can be, so I reckon it behooves some to be equally as quick to plea for leniency. Both cases lack a large amount of data to support them, both cases rely on a great deal of emotional appeal and anecdote. Both are bad cases. One perhaps slightly worse than the other, no false equivalence is needed, but neither good.

BTW:

Quote
Then your appeal for clemency is based on no information and is meaningless.  You may presume innocence, but you have no responsibility or jurisdiction in the matter.  The people who do, have investigated and made a decision, based on information we are not privy to.


This is wonderful. Almost these exact words have been used to justify non-intervention in tyranny and torture the world over. I'm not accusing you of anything, but these are telling phrases. Apply those words to an atheist or muslim apostate being imprisoned (shortly to be executed) in Iran for example. My appeal for clemency, whilst gleefully acknowledged as being without much of a factual basis (precisely BECAUSE of that in fact) is based on an acknowledged presumption of innocence and a great dislike of rules being applied in a very "literalist" fashion. I disagree that summary dismissal is the best punishment, based on the little I know, and I am saying so. All the while acknowledging that I have a) little knowledge of the minutiae and b) no power at all. Neither of which invalidates the point about presumption of innocence or my disagreement with the mentality of "persecution" and the "tyranny of the mob". (Both terms are used advisedly and as placeholders for much longer arguments!).

Cheers

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 18 2008,04:07   

Quote (Dr.GH @ July 17 2008,18:54)
Quote (Lou FCD @ July 16 2008,18:01)
Quote (SoonerintheBluegrass @ July 16 2008,20:16)
Longtime lurker, first time caller.  I humbly submit . . .  Can we change this thread name to "Crackers Don't Matter"?

(I love that episode, and it's so apropos)

Hi SoonerintheBluegrass.  Glad you've started posting.

We'll wait and see what Dr. GH says.  It's his thread, and I don't wanna step on his toes.  I like him a lot, and I don't want him mad at me.

I hear he eats people on his shit list.  He even has blog named "Stones and Bones".  (It should be in your feed reader if it's not already.)  If that don't put the fear of the FSM in you, I don't know what will.

But if he's all good with it, then I'm all good with it.

Fine with me. I am going on the ocean tonight into the weekend to kill things. Grrrr

Which means I'm going to have to wait longer for my richly deserved apology I suppose.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
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