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Dr.GH



Posts: 2137
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2008,21:54   

Quote (steve_h @ July 12 2008,19:47)
People in receipt of burning crosses, often ended up dead at the hands of the KKK.

People who found their walls daubed with Nazi symbols, often turned up dead at the hand of the Nazis.

People who found their crackers disrepected, often ended up being killed by killing, or threatening to kill their oppressors people whose "religion" is that crackers are just crackers.

The similarities are just frightening.

You know of many recent examples?

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 2137
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2008,21:59   

Quote (dnmlthr @ July 12 2008,19:03)
If you still don't see the difference between burning a cross and walking away with a wafer there's really nothing I can say. What is the implied threat of the wafer scenario?

As for intent, one of the two is intended to terrorize, the other to be an asshole and possibly make some kind of point.

And what's up with the "I have seen things on the streets" shit? No amount of street cred can save a tortured analogy.

The Catholics seem to feel they are being terrorized. †You either think they have no real emotional response, or that because you have a superior grasp of reality their emotional response is unjustified.

Or maybe they have no right to have an emotional response just because ___?

Edited by Dr.GH on July 12 2008,20:00

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
steve_h



Posts: 535
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2008,22:21   

Quote (Dr.GH @ July 13 2008,03:54)
† † † † †
Quote (steve_h @ July 12 2008,19:47)
People in receipt of burning crosses, often ended up dead at the hands of the KKK.

People who found their walls daubed with Nazi symbols, often turned up dead at the hand of the Nazis.

People who found their crackers disrepected, often ended up being killed by killing, or threatening to kill their oppressors people whose "religion" is that crackers are just crackers.

The similarities are just frightening.

You know of many recent examples?

No I don't, unless you count the recent death threats against PZ, but I'm sure that such incidents live on in the thoughts of previous victims and the people that know them. †The symbols would be just as shocking today.†I am neither a Jew nor an African-American. If such symbols have been relegated to the trashcan of history as you seem to imply, I would be delighted to hear about it. I haven't heard of any specific incidents recently but I think it would be unwise to assume that racial extremist are no longer a concern.

For the sake of argument, I will take you at your word. Cracker abuse is the last taboo. Nazis are gone, Racists are gone, but how do we handle the PZ-cracker situation? How do we, or should †we, respect the rights of people who think crackers are just crackers? I say we agree to disagree with kill them express our regret that people with similar outlooks to ours might do something we don't exactly sanction but do sort of understand.

Edited by Steve_h on 2008-07-13 †

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2137
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2008,22:30   

Quote (steve_h @ July 12 2008,20:21)
Quote (Dr.GH @ July 13 2008,03:54)
† † † † †
Quote (steve_h @ July 12 2008,19:47)
People in receipt of burning crosses, often ended up dead at the hands of the KKK.

People who found their walls daubed with Nazi symbols, often turned up dead at the hand of the Nazis.

People who found their crackers disrepected, often ended up being killed by killing, or threatening to kill their oppressors people whose "religion" is that crackers are just crackers.

The similarities are just frightening.

You know of many recent examples?

No I don't, unless you count the recent death threats against PZ, but I'm sure that such incidents live on in the thoughts of previous victims and the people that know them. †The symbols would be just as shocking today.†I am neither a Jew nor an African-American. If such symbols have been relegated to the trashcan of history as you seem to imply, I would be delighted to hear about it. I haven't heard of any specific incidents recently but I think it would be unwise to assume that racial extremist are no longer a concern.

For the sake of argument, I will take you at your word. Cracker abuse is the last taboo. Nazis are gone, Racists are gone, but how do we handle the PZ-cracker situation? How do we, or should †we, respect the rights of people who think crackers are just crackers? I say we agree to disagree with kill them express our regret that people with similar outlooks to ours might do something we don't exactly sanction but do sort of understand.

Edited 2008-07-13

I sort of imagine something with Ritz and grape juice- but the rest of the details are murky.

Cheesewiz, there has got to be cheeswiz and big pointy hats.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Badger3k



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Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2008,22:47   

Quote (Dr.GH @ July 12 2008,21:59)
Quote (dnmlthr @ July 12 2008,19:03)
If you still don't see the difference between burning a cross and walking away with a wafer there's really nothing I can say. What is the implied threat of the wafer scenario?

As for intent, one of the two is intended to terrorize, the other to be an asshole and possibly make some kind of point.

And what's up with the "I have seen things on the streets" shit? No amount of street cred can save a tortured analogy.

The Catholics seem to feel they are being terrorized. †You either think they have no real emotional response, or that because you have a superior grasp of reality their emotional response is unjustified.

Or maybe they have no right to have an emotional response just because ___?

I think you have it.

The catholics think that they are being terrorized.

Fear.  They are fearful that their beliefs will be exposed for the ridiculous garbage they are.

Really, I hope that none of them feel like they are being terrorized.  Because if they are, they need to really get their heads out of their posteriors and join the real world.  People around the world are actually being terrorized, threatened, and assaulted, and those people have legitimate issues.  These nutcases don't.  I grew up in the Roman Catholic tradition, and I never really could buy that type of fear and, to use their own words, idolatry, that is reflected by these people's actions.

Do they really think that their god is small enough to be held hostage in a piece of mass-produced wafer, like some of the emailers to PZ have said?

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"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
dvunkannon



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Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2008,23:00   

With respect to Dr. GH's interest in a test case, I think that Mr. Woods' actions are already that case. He's admitted that he went to Mass, took the wafer after it was consecrated, and left with it. If the Catholic diocese wanted to engage in legal action, that was the opportunity. No need to wait for PZ's squidy ninjas to drop from the rafters.

In asking to "score" a wafer, all PZ was asking for was that someone repeat Mr Woods' actions.

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Iím referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
Iím not an evolutionist, Iím a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
dnmlthr



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Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2008,02:44   

Quote (Dr.GH @ July 13 2008,03:59)
Quote (dnmlthr @ July 12 2008,19:03)
If you still don't see the difference between burning a cross and walking away with a wafer there's really nothing I can say. What is the implied threat of the wafer scenario?

As for intent, one of the two is intended to terrorize, the other to be an asshole and possibly make some kind of point.

And what's up with the "I have seen things on the streets" shit? No amount of street cred can save a tortured analogy.

The Catholics seem to feel they are being terrorized.


What reason do catholics have to fear for their lives because of the wafer incident? Name a precedent.

Quote

You either think they have no real emotional response, or that because you have a superior grasp of reality their emotional response is unjustified.

Or maybe they have no right to have an emotional response just because ___?


The "you think you're an Łbermensch" strawman is  getting really old and crusty by now, it's time you make up a new one.

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Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
Amadan



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Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2008,07:39   

I recall a church painting in somewhere in Portugal that depicted a miracle said to have taken place in the 17th or 18th century.

A woman was somehow obliged to a (quelle surprise!) (or should that be que surpresa?) Jew. To discharge this obligation, she had to bring him a consecrated host. Having received it, she surreptitiously put it in her handkerchief. But as she was leaving the church, blood was seen to be issuing from the handkerchief and the sacrilege was disclosed. History does not relate the consequences, but regular readers will surely be able to fill them in fairly accurately.

All this tells us much more about Portuguese Catholicism than about the truth or otherwise of the reported events.

Having grown up an Irish Catholic in reasonably liberal family, I can understand the outrage devout Catholics feel at what is being portrayed, rightly or wrongly, as an incitement to sacrilege motivated by an atheist's derision. I imagine that all religions venerate their martyrs and make a point of recalling real persecution when it did happen to them, and the Catholic Church has an entire bureaucracy dedicated to it. The two buttons labelled Persecution and Sacrilege are big, RED and very easily pushed. But I thought PZ's comments were pretty infantile. It's not as if someone was trying to make Communion compulsory for biology professors.

That said, portraying this as persecution is going miles over the top. It's also more than slightly ironic hearing the chorus of tut-tutting on UD given that at least half of the goons there would consider Catholics about as Christian as Maoist Scientologists.

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"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Louis



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(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2008,07:48   

Gary, I am very curious to know why you are chucking such a huge quantity of straw around on this issue.

Not only are the views you seem keen to attatch to others demonstrably and manifestly not the ones they are espressing, but the anecdotes, analogies and crimes you are associating with the actual events and arguments are so wide of the mark as to be almost deliberately so.

Louis

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Bye.

  
Quidam



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Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2008,10:24   

I'm amazed at how puny and ineffective Chistians believe their God to be. †If you truly believe that the cracker is God, then it should be perfectly capable of looking after itself and would need no help from mere mortals.

Pity the infidel who ate a genuine Jesus-inhabited cracker


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The organized fossils ... and their localities also, may be understood by all, even the most illiterate. William Smith, Strata. 1816

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2137
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2008,14:09   

Quote (Quidam @ July 13 2008,08:24)
I'm amazed at how puny and ineffective Chistians believe their God to be. †If you truly believe that the cracker is God, then it should be perfectly capable of looking after itself and would need no help from mere mortals.

Pity the infidel who ate a genuine Jesus-inhabited cracker

Heheh

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Dr.GH



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Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2008,14:15   

Quote (Dr.GH @ July 12 2008,20:30)
I sort of imagine something with Ritz and grape juice- but the rest of the details are murky.

Cheesewiz, there has got to be cheeswiz and big pointy hats.

I got it. Wearing big pointy hats, pass out crackers with cheesewiz and grapejuice while chanting "Don't be a cannibal."

No threats, an artistic expression (depending on the big pointy hats) that clearly derides the ritual of communion.

Be my guest.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Dr.GH



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Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2008,14:33   

Quote (Louis @ July 13 2008,05:48)
Gary, I am very curious to know why you are chucking such a huge quantity of straw around on this issue.

Not only are the views you seem keen to attatch to others demonstrably and manifestly not the ones they are espressing, but the anecdotes, analogies and crimes you are associating with the actual events and arguments are so wide of the mark as to be almost deliberately so.

Louis

Well, there were several things about this that make me angry. First, I have a politically liberal respect for the rights of others to partisipte unmolested in the religion of their choice. Second, I have a professional respect for the rights of others to partisipte unmolested in the religion of their choice. Third, it is cowardly to ask other people to do your dirty work for you. Fourth, PZ was dismissive about the attack against Mirecki.

Finally, I presented a number of scenarios that you would agree are "bad things." †The Catholics view desecration of their ritual objects as a bad thing, on a par with the things I have mentioned. You (and the rest) deny they have valid emotions which is dehumanizing. You deny that they have a right to their practice unmolested and that it is fine to threaten them with the disruption of their religious practice. †That makes you a bigot.

Edited by Dr.GH on July 13 2008,12:35

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Louis



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2008,14:43   

Quote (Dr.GH @ July 13 2008,20:33)
Quote (Louis @ July 13 2008,05:48)
Gary, I am very curious to know why you are chucking such a huge quantity of straw around on this issue.

Not only are the views you seem keen to attatch to others demonstrably and manifestly not the ones they are espressing, but the anecdotes, analogies and crimes you are associating with the actual events and arguments are so wide of the mark as to be almost deliberately so.

Louis

Well, there were several things about this that make me angry. First, I have a politically liberal respect for the rights of others to partisipte unmolested in the religion of their choice. Second, I have a professional respect for the rights of others to partisipte unmolested in the religion of their choice. Third, it is cowardly to ask other people to do your dirty work for you. Fourth, PZ was dismissive about the attack against Mirecki.

Finally, I presented a number of scenarios that you would agree are "bad things." †The Catholics view desecration of their ritual objects as a bad thing, on a par with the things I have mentioned. You (and the rest) deny they have valid emotions which is dehumanizing. You deny that they have a right to their practice unmolested and that it is fine to threaten them with the disruption of their religious practice. †That makes you a bigot.

I don't think I agree with any of those things you claim I do.

That makes you mistaken. Try reading what someone actually writes as opposed to what you think they write.

Louis

ETA: Oh and Gary, before you accuse people of bigotry, especially bigotry they demonstrably do not advocate (for example I challenge you to provide one example where I do not support and advocate the free exercise of religion), I'd check your facts. I'll await your apology.

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Bye.

  
rhmc



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Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2008,16:15   

i fail to see how making fun of catholics and their closely held beliefs is any worse (or any better) than making fun of IDiots and their closely held beliefs.

perhaps the joke was taken a bit further than necessary but quite honestly, a lot of religious beliefs are held up to ridicule on many threads in this forum.

  
Dr.GH



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Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2008,16:22   

Quote (rhmc @ July 13 2008,14:15)
i fail to see how making fun of catholics and their closely held beliefs is any worse (or any better) than making fun of IDiots and their closely held beliefs.

perhaps the joke was taken a bit further than necessary but quite honestly, a lot of religious beliefs are held up to ridicule on many threads in this forum.

I think it is fine and dandy to ridicule people for believing absurd things. It is rude, and generally unnecessary, but it is certainly First Amendment protected speech.

In the case of ID and creationism in general, they are trying to inflict their beliefs on the public, and use legal tricks to do it. That is a violation of the Constitution.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
rhmc



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(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2008,16:42   

i'll just go eat a peach.  :)

  
dnmlthr



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(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2008,16:56   

Since you refuse to actually read what's written in the thread I see no reason to continue this conversation. Have fun in the hay.

Edit: this/the

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Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
khan



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Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2008,17:47   

Quote (Dr.GH @ July 13 2008,17:22)
Quote (rhmc @ July 13 2008,14:15)
i fail to see how making fun of catholics and their closely held beliefs is any worse (or any better) than making fun of IDiots and their closely held beliefs.

perhaps the joke was taken a bit further than necessary but quite honestly, a lot of religious beliefs are held up to ridicule on many threads in this forum.

I think it is fine and dandy to ridicule people for believing absurd things. It is rude, and generally unnecessary, but it is certainly First Amendment protected speech.

In the case of ID and creationism in general, they are trying to inflict their beliefs on the public, and use legal tricks to do it. That is a violation of the Constitution.

If you diss the biscuit
The jebus will hits ya

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Chayanov



Posts: 289
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2008,19:11   

Quote (Dr.GH @ July 13 2008,16:22)
Quote (rhmc @ July 13 2008,14:15)
i fail to see how making fun of catholics and their closely held beliefs is any worse (or any better) than making fun of IDiots and their closely held beliefs.

perhaps the joke was taken a bit further than necessary but quite honestly, a lot of religious beliefs are held up to ridicule on many threads in this forum.

I think it is fine and dandy to ridicule people for believing absurd things. It is rude, and generally unnecessary, but it is certainly First Amendment protected speech.

In the case of ID and creationism in general, they are trying to inflict their beliefs on the public, and use legal tricks to do it. That is a violation of the Constitution.

In other words, it's bigotry when you don't agree with it. When you do, it's perfectly reasonable free speech. Gotcha. I'm done here, too. There are enough irrational, unreasonable people out there as it is.

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Help! Marxist literary critics are following me!

  
Erasmus, FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2008,19:56   

Was it illegal?

The answer seems clear, No.

If it is not illegal then the rest of the objections to this activity are irrelevant, although they may be interesting and even hilarious, to the discussion.

the claim that a communion wafer actually transforms into the body of christ is an empirical claim.  Of course, there is no empirical evidence for this claim, and it is unclear to me what sort of evidence could possibly even entail demonstrating the claim.  

So in that respect, this claim is as ridiculous as the claim that 'information increases are impossible by RM+NS', because in this case 'transforms' and 'body of christ' are as ill-defined and arbitrary (as clauses in the claim) as 'information'.  

I am just catching up here after having been away from the circus for a few days.  looking forward to seeing the fallout on pharyngula.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell.†Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
QED



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(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2008,21:08   

The fallout at present is PZ's posting of two of the more †serious threats against him via emails, complete with headers. One of the respondents was foolish enough to post from his/her workplace. Although it looks to me like someone left their computer account open before leaving for vacation and was set up, that someone is in for one nasty Monday morning when they return.

  
Lou FCD



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2008,23:07   

Quote (QED @ July 13 2008,22:08)
The fallout at present is PZ's posting of two of the more †serious threats against him via emails, complete with headers. One of the respondents was foolish enough to post from his/her workplace. Although it looks to me like someone left their computer account open before leaving for vacation and was set up, that someone is in for one nasty Monday morning when they return.

I love that it came from 1800flowers.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

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Texas Teach



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(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2008,23:15   

Quote (Lou FCD @ July 13 2008,23:07)
Quote (QED @ July 13 2008,22:08)
The fallout at present is PZ's posting of two of the more †serious threats against him via emails, complete with headers. One of the respondents was foolish enough to post from his/her workplace. Although it looks to me like someone left their computer account open before leaving for vacation and was set up, that someone is in for one nasty Monday morning when they return.

I love that it came from 1800flowers.

Makes you wonder what the "Burn in Hell, Atheist Scum" Bouquet runs for. †(And whether next day shipping is extra.)

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"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
QED



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(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2008,00:16   

Quote (Texas Teach @ July 13 2008,23:15)
 
Quote (Lou FCD @ July 13 2008,23:07)
† †  
Quote (QED @ July 13 2008,22:08)
The fallout at present is PZ's posting of two of the more †serious threats against him via emails, complete with headers. One of the respondents was foolish enough to post from his/her workplace. Although it looks to me like someone left their computer account open before leaving for vacation and was set up, that someone is in for one nasty Monday morning when they return.

I love that it came from 1800flowers.

Makes you wonder what the "Burn in Hell, Atheist Scum" Bouquet runs for. †(And whether next day shipping is extra.)


"For more than 30 years, our passion has been to help you connect and express yourself to the important people in your life..."


There's a "PZ Special" this week for a dozen Rosa anthraxis.

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2008,07:20   

Heated discussion and vehement disagreement:  good.

Gratuitous insults and comparisons to Ftk: not so much.



Quote
Hillbilly Heaven, by Jan Tik


--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

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Louis



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(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2008,07:39   

Quote (Lou FCD @ July 14 2008,13:20)
Heated discussion and vehement disagreement: †good.

Gratuitous insults and comparisons to Ftk: not so much.



 
Quote
Hillbilly Heaven, by Jan Tik

Sorry Lou but that I disagree with. I disagree with your portage also.

Gary has done his damnedest to do EXACTLY what FTK (and her ilk) do:

a) He has chucked around strawmen
b) Falsely accused people of bias they demonstrably do not possess or exhibit.
c) Failed to deal with any argument actually made by anyone, and still adhered to his strawmen as if they were real.

Sorry but WHOEVER does that deserves calling on it. The comparisons made are to FTK's BEHAVIOUR and Gary's BEHAVIOUR not their character. Is it so hard to tell the difference?

Is it also hard to tell the difference between a gratuitous and unsupportable insult and a relatively mild expression of surprise that an otherwise sensible person has to resort to the tactics of the intellectually bereft?

Please restore those posts, they were on topic and not what you appear to think they were.

Louis

ETA: Issue resolved, post restored, inappropriate comment redacted. Guilty innocence or innocent guilt aside.

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Bye.

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2008,08:31   

Louis,

Check your PM box, and let me remind everyone:

Quote
Moderation messages not entered by the moderator are NOT appropriate on the board. Responses to moderation messages will be made via email, not on the board.


"Email" would extend to PMs, obviously.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
Louis



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(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2008,08:38   

1) PM Box checked.

2) Issue resolved.

3) I can has cockups on my part.

4) Ignore the man behind the curtain and the cock ups in front of it.

5) Editted repost permitted:

[Graffiti removed from Bathroom Wall. -Louis]

It's always nice to see that what could be a perfectly useful discussion about the one controversial topic surrounding this issue (i.e. tactics) is stymied by hurling around of unsupportable accusations and egregious strawmen.

I wonder what Gary thinks seperates his behaviour from that of, say, FTK.

Louis

ETA: I love how the majority of the "arguments" from the generally hysterical PZ decriers commonly fall into two broad categories: a) the moral equivalent of "Hey, she was wearing a short skirt, she was asking for it!" or b) "I'm offended, therefore I can do anything I like!".

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Bye.

  
lcd



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Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 14 2008,09:21   

While I do not agree with many of the Catholic beliefs, I would not desecrate their beliefs.

Catholics only real problem is they follow the papacy who unfortunately support evolution over the Bible.

So for those of you who have no religious beliefs, do you believe in something else?  What if those beliefs were desecrated?  What would you do?

  
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