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+--Forum: After the Bar Closes...
+---Topic: Vox Day: Alpha Fail. started by Richardthughes


Posted by: Richardthughes on July 31 2008,17:11

I've been swinging by his den of bible thumping, science denying, racist, misogynistic tools - and it's great. I've not been so excited since I stumbled across uncommon descent. If they're not bashing evilution, they're banging on about the perils of naturalism, and how angels might be messing with stuff. All the time, Vox pomps and preens - very much like DaveTard. I shall be updating here from time to time, but if you're a Tardaholic like me, your boats come in..

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/ >


Ps - this is him:



Bonus: Funny thread @ Ed's.

< http://scienceblogs.com/dispatc....ntsArea >

Edited.
Posted by: EyeNoU on July 31 2008,17:38

Didn't Vox virtually guarantee us that Hilary would get Dem nomination? That one's not looking too good about now......
Posted by: Assassinator on July 31 2008,17:50

You're forgetting the halo and the wings on that photo Richard ;)
Anyway, good stuff, especially because it keeps amazing me how things like that can still thrive...
Posted by: deadman_932 on July 31 2008,18:16

"Vox" is Theodore Beale, a spoiled rich kid -- son of multi-millionaire Jesus Freak and Federal Inmate (tax evasion)  Robert Beale. He's also a wanna-be S-F writer and general idiot.

Lots of verbiage, damned little substance to his posts -- either on his blog or on Watta Nut Daily. I was amused, though, by < this "column" on PZ Myers > and "Crackergate" posted: July 14, 2008.

"Vox" gazes into his crystal balls and ventures that  

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
"what actually demonstrates the cowardly nature of this self-aggrandizing atheist [PZ Myers, natch] is the fact that there is no chance that he will follow through on his anti-cracker threats now that it is clear there may be material consequences, however minor, to his actions.

The saltines are safe, for just as there are no atheists in foxholes, there is no vow that the militant atheist will not violate if he perceives any risk to his material well-being.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Yeah, that worked out real well for you, "MENSA" boy.
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on July 31 2008,19:28

I've always been a fan of his 'psycho with a dead animal on his head' photo:



Brags about being in Mensa? Mohawk? Sci-fi fan? Thinks women* who get raped 'asked for it'? He must be a devil with the ladies.


(*who, by the way, shouldn't vote.)
Posted by: Moorit on July 31 2008,19:52

I went over there and let's just say it's going to take a gallon or two of bleach for my brain to ever be as it was pre-exposure.

I did like the description in the comments on "Dispatches...."

"Someone, maybe Orac, issued my favorite quote about Day/Beale: How can you take anything seriously written by a guy with a merkin on his head? (or words to that effect)"
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on July 31 2008,21:27

anyway Rich we're still waiting.  

and waiting.

gymnastics?  rofl
Posted by: Richardthughes on July 31 2008,22:01

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ July 31 2008,21:27)
anyway Rich we're still waiting.  

and waiting.

gymnastics?  rofl
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


EU = Nazi Germany, obviously.

< http://www.mg.co.za/article....ism-law >
Posted by: Advocatus Diaboli on Aug. 01 2008,04:21

I read his book, < The Irrational Atheist. > It wasn't as bad as some people were saying it was. But I do recommend that you skip the first chapter and focus on the stuff after it.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Aug. 01 2008,09:30




*excited!*
Posted by: blipey on Aug. 01 2008,10:27

Quote (Advocatus Diaboli @ Aug. 01 2008,04:21)
I read his book, < The Irrational Atheist. > It wasn't as bad as some people were saying it was. But I do recommend that you skip the first chapter and focus on the stuff after it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I believe Reciprocating Bill read it as well.  I can't remember what thread he put his review on--I think it was the Unreasonable Kansans thread, but it could have been the Ftk research thread.

IIRC, he seemed to think it missed the boat quite often: not actually making the case against each atheist's argument.  At least the bits he quoted seemed to have much better sentence structure and meaningful content than Denise O'Leary.  It's something, anyway.

You seem to have liked it somewhat better.  Perhaps I'll have  a go at it when I'm on the road this fall.
Posted by: Occam's Toothbrush on Aug. 01 2008,12:40

Vox Day = (Heddle x GoP) - Brain
Posted by: Badger3k on Aug. 02 2008,15:51

Quote (blipey @ Aug. 01 2008,10:27)
Quote (Advocatus Diaboli @ Aug. 01 2008,04:21)
I read his book, < The Irrational Atheist. > It wasn't as bad as some people were saying it was. But I do recommend that you skip the first chapter and focus on the stuff after it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I believe Reciprocating Bill read it as well.  I can't remember what thread he put his review on--I think it was the Unreasonable Kansans thread, but it could have been the Ftk research thread.

IIRC, he seemed to think it missed the boat quite often: not actually making the case against each atheist's argument.  At least the bits he quoted seemed to have much better sentence structure and meaningful content than Denise O'Leary.  It's something, anyway.

You seem to have liked it somewhat better.  Perhaps I'll have  a go at it when I'm on the road this fall.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You can get it for free from his site (there's a link somewhere) in pdf format.  I have it but have not read it.  

There was a blogger who took the time to read it and dissect it, and that may be in wherever the older post is, but Austin Cline has a lot of Vox, including a bit on his book (http://atheism.about.com/sitesearch.htm?terms=vox&SUName=atheism&TopNode=99).

I think it was Evangelical Realism (link to the old blog, but posts continue if I read correctly - < http://realevang.wordpress.com/) > - look for TIA tuesday.
Posted by: Steverino on Aug. 03 2008,08:41

Richardthughes:    

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
...but if you're a Tardaholic like me, your boats come in..
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



That's my favorite quote of the month!  Now, that's a keeper!!!

I disagree on one point, Vox while a complete tool-bag, is very intelligent.  He does, however, lack the ability to interpret information without his religious biased.

Facts make sense to him except when they are contrary to his religious, emotional beliefs.  Then they are just complete lies.

P.S.  I love this pic...What a pretentious douche bag.



I bet this pic is a huge hit with all his Dungeons and Dragons buddies
Posted by: Wolfhound on Aug. 03 2008,09:35

Quote (Steverino @ Aug. 03 2008,08:41)
P.S.  I love this pic...What a pretentious douche bag.



I bet this pic is a huge hit with all his Dungeons and Dragons buddies
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I think this is the photo that FtK takes into the bathroom with her.  Wink-wink.
Posted by: Badger3k on Aug. 03 2008,20:54

Quote (Steverino @ Aug. 03 2008,08:41)
I bet this pic is a huge hit with all his Dungeons and Dragons buddies
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Now, I would have thought Tunnels and Trolls myself :)
Posted by: Shirley Knott on Aug. 04 2008,09:12

Quote (Badger3k @ Aug. 03 2008,20:54)
Quote (Steverino @ Aug. 03 2008,08:41)
I bet this pic is a huge hit with all his Dungeons and Dragons buddies
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Now, I would have thought Tunnels and Trolls myself :)
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Oh, come on -- clearly he's a Bunnies and Burrows playa...

And only when he's at the absolute top of his game.

no hugs for thugs,
Shirley Knott
Posted by: Richardthughes on Aug. 04 2008,10:28

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2008/08/fight-club-anthology.html >


Fight club is gay club.


Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Aug. 04 2008,10:41



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
there is no adrenaline rush so great as the moment when two men put one another to the physical test.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



push back god damn you!!!

that is homo-eroticism at it's um gayest.

Vox Gay still like you Rich?  hard to imagine but I am unable to wade through some of that shit to find the pearls.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Aug. 04 2008,10:47

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Aug. 04 2008,10:41)


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
there is no adrenaline rush so great as the moment when two men put one another to the physical test.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



push back god damn you!!!

that is homo-eroticism at it's um gayest.

Vox Gay still like you Rich?  hard to imagine but I am unable to wade through some of that shit to find the pearls.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Does he like me? No.
Is he like me? No
Does he lick me? Let's hope I never find out.
Posted by: Mr_Christopher on Aug. 04 2008,11:04

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Aug. 04 2008,10:41)


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
there is no adrenaline rush so great as the moment when two naked and sweatymen put one another to the physical test.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



push back god damn you!!!

that is homo-eroticism at it's um gayest.

Vox Gay still like you Rich?  hard to imagine but I am unable to wade through some of that shit to find the pearls.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Fixed post.
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Aug. 04 2008,11:22

Quote (Richardthughes @ Aug. 04 2008,10:47)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Aug. 04 2008,10:41)


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
there is no adrenaline rush so great as the moment when two men put one another to the physical test.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



push back god damn you!!!

that is homo-eroticism at it's um gayest.

Vox Gay still like you Rich?  hard to imagine but I am unable to wade through some of that shit to find the pearls.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Does he like me? No.
Is he like me? No
Does he lick me? Let's hope I never find out.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


at least he would be licking you as hard as he could, to put both he and you to the ultimate physical test!!!

what an adrenaline rush!
Posted by: Richardthughes on Aug. 04 2008,11:32

HOMO ERECTUS.  :angry:
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Aug. 04 2008,12:19



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Of course, all this personal combat posturing is useless in a world where atheistic scientists (Dawkins assures us they are atheists) provide nuclear weapons to every warring gang with the means.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



roflmao
Posted by: Richardthughes on Aug. 04 2008,15:13

He's on the wireless now, bashing them thar athiest types..


< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2008/08/on-radio.html >

Edits - to sort of liveblog.

The fact that these books are doing so well just shows how badly them atheism is doing.
Atheism comes from the aftermath of 911... so it's about fear of islam.
He has no clue what 'agnostic' means.. but is waffling on anyway.
Host has just offered 'atheism is a religion'.
Vox sounds like he's 14 on the phone, BTW.
now and advert for "homeschool heartbeat"
He might be debating Hitchens soon - but Dawkins wont debate Vox, because he's scared obviously.
Again - Atheism is a reaction to Islam.
USA is too rich, therefore atheism.
what is wrong with atheism? It works under a delusion. it borrows its ethics and shit from religion... then some bizarre non sequitur to Stalin killing people.
the commentator tells us about caveman morality - the vox talks about the evolution of morals.
Commentator says "Vox = male man coulter". Vox says he's a 'cruelty artist'.
Vox does his philosophy like he plays his first person shooters, apparently.
Them atheists aren't free thinkers. There's lots of evidence for god, just not scientific evidence.
Geology, Evloution and Biology = crocks of shit.
Vox is part of a new Tard movement - against 'secular hedonism'..
Vox had to choose between Nihilism and Christianity, apparently.
Republicans are too leftist, also.
Posted by: slpage on Aug. 05 2008,07:34

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 31 2008,19:28)
I've always been a fan of his 'psycho with a dead animal on his head' photo:



Brags about being in Mensa? Mohawk? Sci-fi fan? Thinks women* who get raped 'asked for it'? He must be a devil with the ladies.


(*who, by the way, shouldn't vote.)
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


These uber-macho right-wing types usually seem ot have something to hide...  Like their wide-stance...
Posted by: Richardthughes on Aug. 06 2008,09:34

There will be some flailing around the scientific method..

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2008/08/hunt-for-higgs.html >

looking for Higgs Boson vs. looking for God.
Posted by: Reciprocating Bill on Aug. 06 2008,14:44

Quote (blipey @ Aug. 01 2008,11:27)
   
Quote (Advocatus Diaboli @ Aug. 01 2008,04:21)
I read his book, < The Irrational Atheist. > It wasn't as bad as some people were saying it was. But I do recommend that you skip the first chapter and focus on the stuff after it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I believe Reciprocating Bill read it as well.  I can't remember what thread he put his review on--I think it was the Unreasonable Kansans thread, but it could have been the Ftk research thread.

IIRC, he seemed to think it missed the boat quite often: not actually making the case against each atheist's argument.  At least the bits he quoted seemed to have much better sentence structure and meaningful content than Denise O'Leary.  It's something, anyway.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I offered my thoughts in three posts. If you read the discussion following the third, you'll see that Ftk brought my critique to VD's attention. VD briefly responded - without addressing any of the major points I raised. You'll also notice that Ftk never responded to any of the points I made, and the topic died. (Dog bites man.)

My comments are < here >, < here > and < here >
Posted by: Richardthughes on Aug. 07 2008,09:10

Wowsers! Today we have a post "The useless women"
and a poll to crash:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2008/08/presidential-vote.html >
Posted by: Lou FCD on Aug. 07 2008,11:53

Quote (Richardthughes @ Aug. 07 2008,10:10)
Wowsers! Today we have a post "The useless women"
and a poll to crash:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2008/08/presidential-vote.html >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Vox finds a woman thrown onto electric train tracks, burned and with a possible collar bone fracture, < "amusing" >

   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Third, given how I suspect the situation developed, it's a cogent illustration of the impotence of female reliance upon the law. I suspect we're going to be seeing more and more of this behavior as it becomes eminently clear to younger men that the law is becoming ever more hostile to their sex. One can just picture the woman imperiously making her righteous demand of the two young thugs in the full confidence that the law is not only on her side, but protecting her, then finding herself sailing through the air as her position and her misplaced confidence are met with a speedy and forceful rebuttal.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------





   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
< Oink! Oink! >, by Leo Reynolds
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Aug. 07 2008,12:52

Wow this tardaholic zero has the same issues which I was pointing out on the UD thread.  Wonder where the women are that agree with VD?

FtK you sure pick some doozies to hang out with.  You are at least as big a nothing as they are, and perhaps even more.
Posted by: deadman_932 on Aug. 07 2008,14:34

Just for shits 'n giggles and sheer perversity, I posted the VoxDay poll addy in the latest Pharyngula thread.

Fly, my pretties, fly!!!


^ Bush Monkey  :D
Posted by: American Saddlebred on Aug. 07 2008,14:43


Posted by: Richardthughes on Aug. 08 2008,08:57

Brace for "Obama is not an American" assclownery...

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2008....es.html >
Posted by: J-Dog on Aug. 08 2008,11:08

Quote (Richardthughes @ Aug. 08 2008,08:57)
Brace for "Obama is not an American" assclownery...

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2008....es.html >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Looking at the bright side, Tim LaHaye, another breed of  ass-hat says Obama can't be "The Anti-Christ" because he IS American, and his Bible Tells Him that the anti-christ is not American.   So,  you pays your money, you makes your choice

- Which Asshat do you believe today?

Damn it must be tough being a Believer!  Maybe every Bible should come with a "How To Juggle For Dummies" book, so they can handle all the contradictory ideas.
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Aug. 08 2008,17:58

This is some really repressed gay shit




---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Chuck's Chun Kuk Do was unbelievably strong, but his flexibility has waned with the years and so the lightning-fast sokuto intended for my solar plexus only grazed my left shin. Even so, the speed of it forced me to switch from an aggressive Tiger stance to a more defensive Nekko-achi, from which I snapped a front kick that would have crushed his jaw had he not slashed down with a patented Shigawire Mustache block that severed two of my toes. Screaming in pain and fury, I leaped backward while throwing a defensive maegeri that didn't make contact, but blinded him with a spray of blood. While Chuck rubbed at his face to clear his vision, I took advantage of his momentary blindness to attack again and broke several of his ribs with a skipping left sokuto that left a bloody footprint on his white gi.

Chuck doubled over and I stepped forward to throw a right-left combination to his head that would have finished him, but the movement turned out to be a ruse. Just as I threw the right hook, he caught my wrist, twisted his body and threw me over his shoulder, slamming me into the pavement in front of my garage. I was stunned, naturally, and my shoulder was dislocated, but I managed to roll away before he drove his heel down into my throat. Still, I was in a very precarious position and had all but given up hope of keeping the hawk on Monday's front page. Fortunately for me, the disturbance of the air caused by my violent passage through it had slightly ruffled Joseph Farah's exquisitely coiffed mane, so Mr. Farah immediately called time, declared the match a draw, and told us to sort it out amongst ourselves while he flipped open his solid gold satellite phone and arranged for an emergency styling right there in the driveway.


---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: Lou FCD on Aug. 08 2008,18:04

Quote (Richardthughes @ Aug. 08 2008,09:57)
Brace for "Obama is not an American" assclownery...

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2008....es.html >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------




---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I had no idea there was a Women's Equality Day,
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



shocked.  really, i am.
Posted by: American Saddlebred on Aug. 08 2008,18:06

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Aug. 08 2008,17:58)
This is some really repressed gay shit
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Does he masturbate to that?  Someone should ask him.
Posted by: dnmlthr on Aug. 09 2008,03:53

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Aug. 08 2008,23:58)
This is some really repressed gay shit




---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Chuck's Chun Kuk Do was unbelievably strong, but his flexibility has waned with the years and so the lightning-fast sokuto intended for my solar plexus only grazed my left shin. Even so, the speed of it forced me to switch from an aggressive Tiger stance to a more defensive Nekko-achi, from which I snapped a front kick that would have crushed his jaw had he not slashed down with a patented Shigawire Mustache block that severed two of my toes. Screaming in pain and fury, I leaped backward while throwing a defensive maegeri that didn't make contact, but blinded him with a spray of blood. While Chuck rubbed at his face to clear his vision, I took advantage of his momentary blindness to attack again and broke several of his ribs with a skipping left sokuto that left a bloody footprint on his white gi.

Chuck doubled over and I stepped forward to throw a right-left combination to his head that would have finished him, but the movement turned out to be a ruse. Just as I threw the right hook, he caught my wrist, twisted his body and threw me over his shoulder, slamming me into the pavement in front of my garage. I was stunned, naturally, and my shoulder was dislocated, but I managed to roll away before he drove his heel down into my throat. Still, I was in a very precarious position and had all but given up hope of keeping the hawk on Monday's front page. Fortunately for me, the disturbance of the air caused by my violent passage through it had slightly ruffled Joseph Farah's exquisitely coiffed mane, so Mr. Farah immediately called time, declared the match a draw, and told us to sort it out amongst ourselves while he flipped open his solid gold satellite phone and arranged for an emergency styling right there in the driveway.


---------------------QUOTE-------------------


---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Reads like slashfic. Makes sense, worldnutdaily is related to reality the same way fanfic is related to canon.
Posted by: Assassinator on Aug. 09 2008,05:08

Quote (J-Dog @ Aug. 08 2008,11:08)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Aug. 08 2008,08:57)
Brace for "Obama is not an American" assclownery...

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2008....es.html >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Looking at the bright side, Tim LaHaye, another breed of  ass-hat says Obama can't be "The Anti-Christ" because he IS American, and his Bible Tells Him that the anti-christ is not American.   So,  you pays your money, you makes your choice

- Which Asshat do you believe today?

Damn it must be tough being a Believer!  Maybe every Bible should come with a "How To Juggle For Dummies" book, so they can handle all the contradictory ideas.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


O dear

Doom is on it's way!!!
Posted by: Richardthughes on Aug. 13 2008,16:09

Vox is busy telling his sycophants Global warming is a lie based on some temperature readings from Midway Airport this year:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2008/08/that-elusive-global-warming.html >

He quickly deletes any posts that might highlight his assclownery..
Posted by: Richardthughes on Aug. 21 2008,23:00

Vox occasionally self proclaims himself an expert in AI.

Here's what players of his games think:

< http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/rebel-moon-rising/mobyrank >

and

< http://www.somethingawful.com/d/game-reviews/war-heaven.php >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
...They are equipped with deadly weapons (sticks) and advanced artificial intelligence so complex that they are capable of either walking towards you OR walking away. Sometimes the enemies choose to run in place or get stuck in doorways, but this is probably just part of God's master plan (I assume). Occasionally enemies will disappear too, which is definitely an added bonus that kept me "on my toes." The game designers also opted to throw in more "difficult" versions of the same enemy. The difference between a normal badguy and its more difficult brother is their skin hue, and the fact that it takes three minutes of holding down the "attack" key to kill the difficult guy, as opposed to the normal two. After playing this game for many hours, I have discovered the optimal attack plan, which you should follow when encountering any kind of enemy in this game:

1) Approach opponent by walking towards it in a straight line. They will do the same.
2) Hold down the "attack" key.*
3) Wait until enemy dies or game crashes.
4) Repeat instructions until everything on map is dead.

* Advanced tactic (for experienced players only): try moving to the right occasionally. It doesn't really help, but you end up a little bit to the right of where you originally were.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: J-Dog on Aug. 22 2008,08:05

Quote (Richardthughes @ Aug. 21 2008,23:00)
* Advanced tactic (for experienced players only): try moving to the right occasionally. It doesn't really help, but you end up a little bit to the right of where you originally were.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------

[/quote]
If he moves any further to the right, he's gonna wind up like this:


Posted by: Richardthughes on Aug. 22 2008,13:57

Sadly, on this thread:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2008/08/challenge.html >

Clay tells us he's about to lose his mother to sickness. If any of you wish to offer comforting words (please no snide) you can perhaps help someone when they really need support.

:(  :(  :(
Posted by: Richardthughes on Aug. 28 2008,15:34

Vox repeatedly refers to Obama as "the Magic Negro"..
Posted by: J-Dog on Aug. 28 2008,15:37

Quote (Richardthughes @ Aug. 28 2008,15:34)
Vox repeatedly refers to Obama as "the Magic Negro"..
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So, is he taking up a collection to move down south, or does he need some cash to finish up his time machine and move back to the 1950s?
Posted by: Richardthughes on Aug. 31 2008,21:37

We has a predictions!




---------------------QUOTE-------------------
They didn't see the Palin selection coming. I did. They think it's a joke and will turn out poorly for McCain. I think it's an excellent choice that will help him trounce Obama. We'll see who is correct....
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2008/08/journalists-are-idiots.html >

Vox is supporting a person he thinks shouldn't be allowed to vote...
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Sep. 01 2008,00:48

Alpha Gay re:  whatshernames purported creationist beliefs...



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
To claim that a man or a woman should be disqualified from political participation for failing to genuflect before the current state of science - an intrinsically moving target - is anti-democratic, fascistic, and historically ignorant. One can make a much better case for limiting government by sex, height, or even hair color, things that are far less subjective and less given to abuse by an authoritarian oligarchy. And given the fact that scientage is a dynamic entity, the abjuring of the admittedly bad science of yesterday is no guarantee that today's scientific consensus is not tomorrow's bad science.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



distilled hard tard.  i dare not link to that garbage.  i'd say, Go Look For It but it would be like looking for a dirty piss diaper in a pile of shitty ones.  rich you are a glutton for dumbfuckery.
Posted by: stevestory on Sep. 01 2008,02:40

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Aug. 08 2008,18:58)
This is some really repressed gay shit
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


We all fantasized about being Bruce Lee, and dispatching our enemies with our glorious fists of death, but sometime in your early 20's you're expected to grow out of it.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Sep. 01 2008,16:06

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Sep. 01 2008,00:48)
distilled hard tard.  i dare not link to that garbage.  i'd say, Go Look For It but it would be like looking for a dirty piss diaper in a pile of shitty ones.  rich you are a glutton for dumbfuckery.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


*sniffle* Oh it's all true! I are tardoholic!
Posted by: Louis on Sep. 01 2008,17:14

Quote (stevestory @ Sep. 01 2008,08:40)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Aug. 08 2008,18:58)
This is some really repressed gay shit
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


We all fantasized about being Bruce Lee, and dispatching our enemies with our glorious fists of death, but sometime in your early 20's preteen years, unless you are delusional quasi-fascist with a borderline personality disorder and a clearly tiny set of genitalia, you're expected to grow out of it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Fixed that for you. ;-)

Vox needs some serious professional help.

Louis
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on Sep. 01 2008,18:12

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 01 2008,15:14)
 
Quote (stevestory @ Sep. 01 2008,08:40)
 
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Aug. 08 2008,18:58)
This is some really repressed gay shit
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


We all fantasized about being Bruce Lee, and dispatching our enemies with our glorious fists of death, but sometime in your early 20's preteen years, unless you are delusional, misogynist quasi-fascist with a borderline personality disorder, and a clearly tiny set of genitalia, and a dead rat on your head, you're expected to grow out of it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Fixed that for you. ;-)
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Fixed it even more.
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Sep. 01 2008,18:15

Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 01 2008,16:06)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Sep. 01 2008,00:48)
distilled hard tard.  i dare not link to that garbage.  i'd say, Go Look For It but it would be like looking for a dirty piss diaper in a pile of shitty ones.  rich you are a glutton for dumbfuckery.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


*sniffle* Oh it's all true! I are tardoholic!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


and i love it so!
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on Sep. 01 2008,18:34

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Sep. 01 2008,16:15)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 01 2008,16:06)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Sep. 01 2008,00:48)
distilled hard tard.  i dare not link to that garbage.  i'd say, Go Look For It but it would be like looking for a dirty piss diaper in a pile of shitty ones.  rich you are a glutton for dumbfuckery.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


*sniffle* Oh it's all true! I are tardoholic!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


and i love it so!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So apparently, Ras, you are both GoP AND Javison. I'll bet you're really VMartin, as well.
:angry:
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Sep. 01 2008,19:12

oh frustrated darwinist materialist from ATBC cannot discuss at great work zoologist Heikertinger and believes in mystical selectionist for to explain why herpes sore is shaped like crab nebula.
Posted by: Henry J on Sep. 01 2008,19:29

the who whatting how with huh? :p
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on Sep. 01 2008,19:34

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Sep. 01 2008,17:12)
oh frustrated darwinist materialist from ATBC cannot discuss at great work zoologist Heikertinger and believes in mystical selectionist for to explain why herpes sore is shaped like crab nebula.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Uh oh.


That was, uh, a little too real.
Posted by: Albatrossity2 on Sep. 01 2008,19:49

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 01 2008,19:34)
 
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Sep. 01 2008,17:12)
oh frustrated darwinist materialist from ATBC cannot discuss at great work zoologist Heikertinger and believes in mystical selectionist for to explain why herpes sore is shaped like crab nebula.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------

Uh oh.

That was, uh, a little too real.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Damn, that was amazing. Are you sure you aren't Rich Little?

Congrats on your ability to channel banned Slovakian tards. With a skill like that, and a couple of bucks, you can get a cup of coffee these days...
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Sep. 01 2008,21:02

wonder if it could get me guest posting privileges over at UD?  on second thought I'd rather volunteer separating corn from the beans over at the baby poop factory.  

i never did figure out who vmartin really was.  i don't buy the czechowhateverthehellhesaid bit for a minute.  someone thought he might have been GoP.  Tarden has insinuated that I am GoP.  Javison may not remember who he is.  could this be a nexus point, a crossroads of possible paths in the universe?  can i become whoever i wish, with no regards to the material (mere material) bonds bounding what I have been told is my self?  possibly i may transcend the self-ness-ness and reform matter in ways never considered by first-order bayesian type thing UPBs?  why not?  a few trillion molecules of wine is no problem, how about I just manifest what I know the universe wants me to have?

I will re-form.  I have been front-loading all of my existence, which might just span eons (you can't tell anything about the nature of the designer just because of the design of my frontloader).  Ladies and gentlemen, you have just witnessed a macroevolutionary event:  tardery is now holometabolous.
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on Sep. 01 2008,22:18

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Sep. 01 2008,19:02)
i never did figure out who vmartin really was.  i don't buy the czechowhateverthehellhesaid bit for a minute.  someone thought he might have been GoP.  Tarden has insinuated that I am GoP.  Javison may not remember who he is.  could this be a nexus point, a crossroads of possible paths in the universe?  can i become whoever i wish, with no regards to the material (mere material) bonds bounding what I have been told is my self?  possibly i may transcend the self-ness-ness and reform matter in ways never considered by first-order bayesian type thing UPBs?  why not?  a few trillion molecules of wine is no problem, how about I just manifest what I know the universe wants me to have?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I think eventually it will be revealed that there's only ever been one person actually posting here at ATBC.

I predict it'll be Bornagain77.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Sep. 01 2008,22:20

un^likely.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Sep. 02 2008,09:34

Here's a comment snippet:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
happy working woman,
You protest too much. Home alone with the cats? And this isn't the same as an inner city female negro with child. The daughter is getting married(not too much of that with blacks) and won't be on welfare(too much of that with blacks). The daughter's child is much less likely to be a criminal or have an average IQ of 85. Fine by me...

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



from here:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2008/09/abstaining-from-logic.html >
Posted by: Richardthughes on Sep. 02 2008,10:28

One for the diary:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I'm confused. You said it's off topic, and deleted my posts concerning it. Do you want to talk about it, or do you just want to pontificate with no right-of-reply? Would this mixed message be 'social autism'?

Not your fault. I'm not the only one with delete powers here. Tell you what. Sometime soon, I'll do a post on social autism and we'll discuss it then since I'm truly not interested in an echo chamber. However, I'm also not interested in permitting the thread hijacking that was once common, so let's table it for now and concentrate on abstinence and so forth.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: JohnW on Sep. 02 2008,13:29

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Sep. 01 2008,19:02)
wonder if it could get me guest posting privileges over at UD?  on second thought I'd rather volunteer separating corn from the beans over at the baby poop factory.  

i never did figure out who vmartin really was.  i don't buy the czechowhateverthehellhesaid bit for a minute.  someone thought he might have been GoP.  Tarden has insinuated that I am GoP.  Javison may not remember who he is.  could this be a nexus point, a crossroads of possible paths in the universe?  can i become whoever i wish, with no regards to the material (mere material) bonds bounding what I have been told is my self?  possibly i may transcend the self-ness-ness and reform matter in ways never considered by first-order bayesian type thing UPBs?  why not?  a few trillion molecules of wine is no problem, how about I just manifest what I know the universe wants me to have?

I will re-form.  I have been front-loading all of my existence, which might just span eons (you can't tell anything about the nature of the designer just because of the design of my frontloader).  Ladies and gentlemen, you have just witnessed a macroevolutionary event:  tardery is now holometabolous.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I think you may have been a little too inspired by Steve's posts about mushrooms, Razzer.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Sep. 03 2008,10:21

Now we're bashing that evil technology thing, which isn't as good as religion, obviously. Stan points out most of the posters would be dead because life expectancy was low before if was helped along by medicine, sanitation, etc.

But that's a BIG LIE© Big Science.

It turns out life expectancy was low... because of slavery - source, Vox Day's terrible book.
Posted by: Badger3k on Sep. 04 2008,10:55

Quote (Lou FCD @ Aug. 07 2008,11:53)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Aug. 07 2008,10:10)
Wowsers! Today we have a post "The useless women"
and a poll to crash:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2008/08/presidential-vote.html >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Vox finds a woman thrown onto electric train tracks, burned and with a possible collar bone fracture, < "amusing" >

     

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Third, given how I suspect the situation developed, it's a cogent illustration of the impotence of female reliance upon the law. I suspect we're going to be seeing more and more of this behavior as it becomes eminently clear to younger men that the law is becoming ever more hostile to their sex. One can just picture the woman imperiously making her righteous demand of the two young thugs in the full confidence that the law is not only on her side, but protecting her, then finding herself sailing through the air as her position and her misplaced confidence are met with a speedy and forceful rebuttal.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------





   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
< Oink! Oink! >, by Leo Reynolds
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I have a confession to make.  I like...the John Norman "Gor" books.  I like them because of his hideous run-on style, some quirky humor, and the taken-from-history sci-fi/fantasy setting.  When he gets into psychology and male-female relationships, I admit my mind shuts down, my eyes glaze over, and I have to skip past.  Too many readings of "a man is a lion, a woman is a flower" and horribly funny stereotypes where women say they want to be men...but that's what Teddy thinks is true.

Sad, and scary.  Sociopaths usually are.
Posted by: Badger3k on Sep. 04 2008,10:58

Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 03 2008,10:21)
Now we're bashing that evil technology thing, which isn't as good as religion, obviously. Stan points out most of the posters would be dead because life expectancy was low before if was helped along by medicine, sanitation, etc.

But that's a BIG LIE© Big Science.

It turns out life expectancy was low... because of slavery - source, Vox Day's terrible book.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I guess that someone is pointing out that in ancient times, people lived 900 years - just look at Adam and Noah! ?

Maybe someone can point out that there is evidence that life span and health was greater in ancient times, well, greater until the advent of farming, when life expectancy and health dropped.  Then it kept on down until science came along and progress was made.  His whole Biblical view was right down there in the low-and-dirty lifespan.

Someone needs to get Teddy a working brain.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Sep. 04 2008,10:59

Badger3k - are you from B3ta?
Posted by: Well Endowed Stud Muffin on Sep. 04 2008,13:28

I have to admit - watching brilliant Vox Day figuratively punch atheists in the mouth and expose them for the hypocritical, uneducated f*cktards they truly are is guilty pleasure of mine.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Sep. 04 2008,13:31

Quote (Well Endowed Stud Muffin @ Sep. 04 2008,13:28)
I have to admit - watching brilliant Vox Day figuratively punch atheists in the mouth and expose them for the hypocritical, uneducated f*cktards they truly are is guilty pleasure of mine.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Welcome WESM!

I can see we're going to have a lot of fun - probably at your expense!  ;)
Posted by: Well Endowed Stud Muffin on Sep. 04 2008,13:39

Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 04 2008,13:31)
Quote (Well Endowed Stud Muffin @ Sep. 04 2008,13:28)
I have to admit - watching brilliant Vox Day figuratively punch atheists in the mouth and expose them for the hypocritical, uneducated f*cktards they truly are is guilty pleasure of mine.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Welcome WESM!

I can see we're going to have a lot of fun - probably at your expense!  ;)
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Thanks, buddy!

Is there a reason why I can't make posts in the "All About AntiEvolution" forums?
Posted by: Richardthughes on Sep. 04 2008,13:52

Honestly, I don't know. some may have a requirement to post I'm not aware of.

But why don't you put your stuff here to enlighten us?

We've got a few biologists / liberals / homos on staff ready to be amazed!
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on Sep. 04 2008,13:55

WESM, you can't make any threads here until you've been around a while, and then you have to ask one of the moderators for permission. Keeps Russian Viagra spammers out.

So I assume you now have the magical proof of God's existence that's eluded everyone else, right? Was it somewhere in the endnotes of Ted Beale's book?
Posted by: Well Endowed Stud Muffin on Sep. 04 2008,14:18

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 04 2008,13:55)
WESM, you can't make any threads here until you've been around a while, and then you have to ask one of the moderators for permission. Keeps Russian Viagra spammers out.

So I assume you now have the magical proof of God's existence that's eluded everyone else, right? Was it somewhere in the endnotes of Ted Beale's book?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


There's really no question that God does exist - modern science has erased all doubt. However I couldn't care less whether you believe or not. I'm just here to mock and ridicule you people for my own amusement, nothing more.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Sep. 04 2008,14:22

Doesn't god want you to spread the good news?

That + "modern science has erased all doubt" = home run!

share!
Posted by: Well Endowed Stud Muffin on Sep. 04 2008,14:28

Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 04 2008,14:22)
Doesn't god want you to spread the good news?

That + "modern science has erased all doubt" = home run!

share!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I'm sure you've already seen and heard the overwhelming evidence, so I wont bother. You're committed to atheism and no amount of evidence could ever change that. I respect your loyalty, even if you are the equivalent of a modern-day flat-Earther.
Posted by: Reciprocating Bill on Sep. 04 2008,14:28

Quote (Well Endowed Stud Muffin @ Sep. 04 2008,15:18)
There's really no question that God does exist - modern science has erased all doubt. However I couldn't care less whether you believe or not. I'm just here to mock and ridicule you people for my own amusement, nothing more.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Exhausted all variations on hand lotion and the circular motion?

You've come to the right place. Whip it out.

Girl you thought he was a man
But he was a muffin
He hung around 'till you found
That he didn't know nuthin'
Girl you thought he was a man
But he only was a-puffin'
No cries is heard in the night
As a result of him stuffin'


-fz
Posted by: Lou FCD on Sep. 04 2008,14:34

Quote (Well Endowed Stud Muffin @ Sep. 04 2008,15:28)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 04 2008,14:22)
Doesn't god want you to spread the good news?

That + "modern science has erased all doubt" = home run!

share!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I'm sure you've already seen and heard the overwhelming evidence, so I wont bother. You're committed to atheism and no amount of evidence could ever change that. I respect your loyalty, even if you are the equivalent of a modern-day flat-Earther.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Agumentum ad Pathetic Level of Detail?

Speaking of undying loyalty, that's a cute handle you got there, WES' Muffin.
Posted by: J-Dog on Sep. 04 2008,14:34

Quote (Well Endowed Stud Muffin @ Sep. 04 2008,14:18)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 04 2008,13:55)
WESM, you can't make any threads here until you've been around a while, and then you have to ask one of the moderators for permission. Keeps Russian Viagra spammers out.

So I assume you now have the magical proof of God's existence that's eluded everyone else, right? Was it somewhere in the endnotes of Ted Beale's book?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


There's really no question that God does exist - modern science has erased all doubt.*  However I couldn't care less whether you believe or not. I'm just here to mock and ridicule you people for my own amusement, nothing more.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


There's really no question that God does exist - modern science has erased all doubt.*

My friend, I don't think this means what you think it means...
Posted by: Well Endowed Stud Muffin on Sep. 04 2008,14:46

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 04 2008,14:34)
 
Quote (Well Endowed Stud Muffin @ Sep. 04 2008,15:28)
   
Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 04 2008,14:22)
Doesn't god want you to spread the good news?

That + "modern science has erased all doubt" = home run!

share!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I'm sure you've already seen and heard the overwhelming evidence, so I wont bother. You're committed to atheism and no amount of evidence could ever change that. I respect your loyalty, even if you are the equivalent of a modern-day flat-Earther.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Agumentum ad Pathetic Level of Detail?

Speaking of undying loyalty, that's a cute handle you got there, WES' Muffin.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Thanks, new friend!

By the way - is your mustache coffee stained? Or at least I hope coffee stained..... ???
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on Sep. 04 2008,15:19

Quote (Well Endowed Stud Muffin @ Sep. 04 2008,12:18)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 04 2008,13:55)
WESM, you can't make any threads here until you've been around a while, and then you have to ask one of the moderators for permission. Keeps Russian Viagra spammers out.

So I assume you now have the magical proof of God's existence that's eluded everyone else, right? Was it somewhere in the endnotes of Ted Beale's book?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


There's really no question that God does exist - modern science has erased all doubt. However I couldn't care less whether you believe or not. I'm just here to mock and ridicule you people for my own amusement, nothing more.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Is this really the best shtick you have?

Yeesh. Your god sure didn't make you real bright.
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on Sep. 04 2008,15:20

Quote (Well Endowed Stud Muffin @ Sep. 04 2008,12:28)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 04 2008,14:22)
Doesn't god want you to spread the good news?

That + "modern science has erased all doubt" = home run!

share!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I'm sure you've already seen and heard the overwhelming evidence, so I wont bother.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Imagine our surprise.
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on Sep. 04 2008,15:21

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 04 2008,12:34)
Quote (Well Endowed Stud Muffin @ Sep. 04 2008,15:28)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 04 2008,14:22)
Doesn't god want you to spread the good news?

That + "modern science has erased all doubt" = home run!

share!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I'm sure you've already seen and heard the overwhelming evidence, so I wont bother. You're committed to atheism and no amount of evidence could ever change that. I respect your loyalty, even if you are the equivalent of a modern-day flat-Earther.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Agumentum ad Pathetic Level of Detail?

Speaking of undying loyalty, that's a cute handle you got there, WES' Muffin.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I suspect his handle is far, far smaller than he claims.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Sep. 04 2008,19:43

Here's a comment:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Friday I saw her picture and thought, "Man, she's kind of cute." Then I read up about her. Now I hate female prezs on principle. But I'm voting Insane this ticket on the hope he croaks.

The Magic Negro must be crapping himself. I think he's cooked. I think Palin is about to take America by storm. I wonder if God hasn't answered many a prayer for a good prez. I just hope she really is what I've been reading about.

I listen to Savage a lot and I can't figure out why he hates her. Does anyone know why? I'm curious.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Progressive!
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Sep. 04 2008,21:52

ahh fresh tard. welcome.

so, muffy, whats a girl like you doing in a nice joint like this?
Posted by: Louis on Sep. 05 2008,05:28

Ahem.

Our new playmate's Delta Tau Chi name is Mud Stuffin.

Just FYI.

Louis
Posted by: Reciprocating Bill on Sep. 05 2008,06:34

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 05 2008,06:28)
Ahem.

Our new playmate's Delta Tau Chi name is Mud Stuffin.

Just FYI.

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


...No cries is heard in the night
As a result of him stuffin'

Posted by: Shirley Knott on Sep. 05 2008,07:44

My perpetual, and perpetually unanswered question [on the amusing assumption that mud stuffin hasn't already fled the building] is:
just what the heck is this 'god' thingie that you are so convinced science has provided incontrovertible proof of the existence thereof?
In my not inconsiderable experience, 'god' is at best a meta-syntactic placeholder, or an affirmation of group membership on the 'us' side of the 'us vs them' preconceptual mentation indulged in by the likes of vox dei and others of that ilk.
But I do eagerly await a definition, description, or at least operational instructions as to how I could tell that what I had discovered was a god rather than some other thingy.

no hugs for thugs,
Shirley Knott
Posted by: Louis on Sep. 05 2008,08:15

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Sep. 05 2008,12:34)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 05 2008,06:28)
Ahem.

Our new playmate's Delta Tau Chi name is Mud Stuffin.

Just FYI.

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


...No cries is heard in the night
As a result of him stuffin'

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Indeed!

Louis
Posted by: Advocatus Diaboli on Nov. 22 2008,16:45

Kid kills himself after reading God delusion. Vox Day laments:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Such a waste. It's tragic to think that after reaching the correct logical conclusion to Dawkinsian moral logic, the unfortunate young man didn't see fit to shoot the pretentious Archbishop of High Church Atheism first.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2008/11/ideas-have-consequences.html >
Posted by: Richardthughes on Mar. 17 2009,20:55

Science denial now with added Anti-vax

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/03/autism-and-vaccines.html >
Posted by: khan on Mar. 17 2009,21:46

crank convergence
Posted by: ERV on Mar. 18 2009,09:36

Isnt this the same person who got into a lot of hot water when he said all atheists are autistic?
Posted by: midwifetoad on Mar. 18 2009,09:51

Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 17 2009,20:55)
Science denial now with added Anti-vax

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/03/autism-and-vaccines.html >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------




---------------------QUOTE-------------------
It's a real pity that scientists can't be bothered to study the problem using the scientific method rather than using statistical measures that are bound to be flawed.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



These folks are just wasting their time?

< http://www.cdc.gov/mmWR/ >

My childhood coffee table mag.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Mar. 18 2009,09:56

Quote (ERV @ Mar. 18 2009,09:36)
Isnt this the same person who got into a lot of hot water when he said all atheists are autistic?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It's his own thing he made up called 'social autism'. He has a book called 'the irrational atheist' that you can download from his website where he talks about it, if you have some spare braincells you'll never get back.
Posted by: FrankH on Mar. 18 2009,10:03

Quote (Steverino @ Aug. 03 2008,08:41)
Richardthughes:    

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
...but if you're a Tardaholic like me, your boats come in..
---------------------QUOTE-------------------

That's my favorite quote of the month!  Now, that's a keeper!!!

I disagree on one point, Vox while a complete tool-bag, is very intelligent.  He does, however, lack the ability to interpret information without his religious biased.

Facts make sense to him except when they are contrary to his religious, emotional beliefs.  Then they are just complete lies.

P.S.  I love this pic...What a pretentious douche bag.



I bet this pic is a huge hit with all his Dungeons and Dragons buddies
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Hey, what's wrong with DnD?

Granted 4th Edition sucks but 3.5 is great(*)!

Still gaming, after 30 years.....

(*)  The best RPG is still C&S.....
Posted by: Richardthughes on Mar. 18 2009,10:05

C&S?


[guilty pleasure] I always liked Traveller. [/guilty pleasure]
Posted by: Badger3k on Mar. 18 2009,10:08

Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 18 2009,10:05)
C&S?


[guilty pleasure] I always liked Traveller. [/guilty pleasure]
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


C&S red book?

Traveller, The Fantasy Trip, Runequest (Chaosium), Empire of the Petal Throne, Rolemaster, Champions/Hero System, Boot Hill, Gamma World, Bushido, Aftermath...the list goes on and on.  

I am a geek.

But Vox Day is still a loser.
Posted by: FrankH on Mar. 18 2009,10:16

Quote (Badger3k @ Mar. 18 2009,10:08)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 18 2009,10:05)
C&S?


[guilty pleasure] I always liked Traveller. [/guilty pleasure]
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


C&S red book?

Traveller, The Fantasy Trip, Runequest (Chaosium), Empire of the Petal Throne, Rolemaster, Champions/Hero System, Boot Hill, Gamma World, Bushido, Aftermath...the list goes on and on.  

I am a geek.

But Vox Day is still a loser.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


"Chivalry & Sorcery" Red Book, 1st Edition and the three book boxed set 2nd Edition.  A great, but very difficult system.

DnD (original books), AD&D (1st), AD&D (2nd), DnD 3 & 3.5 - still gaming.

Traveller, "This is Free Trader Beowulf.  Under atteck, losing atmoshpere" love that game.  Mega-Traveller almost killed my enjoyment of gaming.

Gamma World, TFT (The Fantasy Trip), Empire of the Petal Throne, Arduin Grimoire and more.

Not to mention Ogre, GeV, Car Wars, Nuclear War, you name it.

Too many AH games.

Yes, I am a N.E.R.D. and proud of it.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Mar. 18 2009,10:19

I'm pretty sure the secret success of Ebay is me buying all the things I wanted as a kid but didn't have later in life...

;)

computer based RPG games seem to be getting there, but I don't subscribe to any as they'd take time I don't have.
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Mar. 18 2009,10:21


Posted by: Richardthughes on Mar. 18 2009,10:22

Ouch!  ???  :angry:
Posted by: FrankH on Mar. 18 2009,10:26

Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 18 2009,10:19)
I'm pretty sure the secret success of Ebay is me buying all the things I wanted as a kid but didn't have later in life...

;)

computer based RPG games seem to be getting there, but I don't subscribe to any as they'd take time I don't have.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Tell me about it.

I got a 1st Ed. AD&D book for my daughter's 18th birthday (she games with my group).  Fortunately it was only $10.

:)
Posted by: Advocatus Diaboli on Mar. 18 2009,10:39

Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 17 2009,20:55)
Science denial now with added Anti-vax

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/03/autism-and-vaccines.html >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Everytime I go to Voxday's blog I die a little inside.
Posted by: carlsonjok on Mar. 18 2009,18:15

Quote (FrankH @ Mar. 18 2009,10:03)
 Hey, what's wrong with DnD?

Granted 4th Edition sucks but 3.5 is great(*)!

Still gaming, after 30 years.....

(*)  The best RPG is still C&S.....
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


HA HA THIS IS YOU

Posted by: Reciprocating Bill on Mar. 18 2009,22:20

Anybody here ever play Diplomacy?

Now there is an intense game.
Posted by: Wesley R. Elsberry on Mar. 18 2009,23:31

My box of late-70s vintage AD&D books, Dragon magazines, modules, and so forth was a casualty of our latest move.

I hadn't noticed any career opportunities with options for retirement benefits for "dungeonmaster for hire"...
Posted by: Badger3k on Mar. 18 2009,23:40

Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 18 2009,10:19)
I'm pretty sure the secret success of Ebay is me buying all the things I wanted as a kid but didn't have later in life...

;)

computer based RPG games seem to be getting there, but I don't subscribe to any as they'd take time I don't have.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I've just got my PS3 turned on to continue Fallout 3.  That is uber-kewl, especially when I blow some super-mutant up and have his head splatter apart in slow motion.

Yeah, I'm sick.

(But, yeah, I spent quite a bit to buy the boxed Runequest and Troll Pack, just for the memories, but maybe I'll get a game up too.  I still have my first edition champions books, a lot of my old D&D, and many of the games I mentioned.)
Posted by: Richardthughes on Mar. 18 2009,23:52

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Mar. 18 2009,23:31)
My box of late-70s vintage AD&D books, Dragon magazines, modules, and so forth was a casualty of our latest move.

I hadn't noticed any career opportunities with options for retirement benefits for "dungeonmaster for hire"...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I hope you at least ebayed them, as they're probably woth a bob or two..
Posted by: Badger3k on Mar. 19 2009,00:20

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Mar. 18 2009,22:20)
Anybody here ever play Diplomacy?

Now there is an intense game.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I'd forgotten about that one.  Hadn't played that one in longer than all of my students have been alive (but not all added together, that is).

I grew up on Panzer Leader, Starship Troopers, that Minarian Legends game...got to look that up, if I could remember the name...

Never did play Cosmic Encounter, but I heard that could be a bit on the intense side.
Posted by: k.e.. on Mar. 19 2009,00:27

10-15 years ago I used to sell high performance networked PC's to a small groups of geophysicists in oil companies for <cough> *seismic interpretation software*. Each time we put in a new system out would come the latest Quake and we would have a BLAST FEST ...erm just to test the speed of the gear you understand.

My favorite board game is

Oxford:"The Great Oxford Game of the English Language"

It's *....erm really popular....*
Posted by: Louis on Mar. 19 2009,06:01

One word: Runescape.

It's so bad, it's good. As MMPORGs go it is the shizzle IMO. Sadly I have....

{Does rough calculations, factoring in imminent baby, redecorating "office" as "nursery", working hard to get big promotion to pay for imminent baby, trying to get back to match fitness (and removing fat bastard status accumulated by combinations of injury, years of debauchery and sloth) again by handing my life over to a gym, doing extra work writing a book when I can (chemistry, don't get excited, it should be ready about 20 years after I die), fucking about on Teh Intarwebs (naughty, one of the guilty pleasures still allowed to me...although perhaps not for long) and sleeping (which I won't be doing for long either apparently)}

....minus four days a week to play it. Can we campaign for the 11 day week, 5 at work, 2 for the weekend 4 for MMPORGs? Will it fly?

And as with all these things it can get a bit repetitive and dull just clicking away and unlike real gaming, it's hardly social in the same way.

However, and I will say this, possibly to the consternation/outrage of many, the one problem I found with RPGaming is, erm, other gamers. There are a majority of utterly sad bastards out there in my experience, and gaming with morons never appealed. The few times I've found fun gamers have been great however, although it's >16 years now since I've gamed. Maybe in the USA, where it's more popular I understand, it's a better environment, but nowadays I'd rather be outdoors in the few moments I get, walking, swimming, something, ANYTHING rather than being cooped up again.

Oops diversion!

Does anyone here play MMORPGs? I've heard interesting things about WoW, but never played a game. I did have an old version of just plain Warcraft for my old Mac about...umm....some years ago (10 I think) and it was fun ish.  

Louis
Posted by: Louis on Mar. 19 2009,06:08

Quote (Advocatus Diaboli @ Mar. 18 2009,16:39)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 17 2009,20:55)
Science denial now with added Anti-vax

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/03/autism-and-vaccines.html >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Everytime I go to Voxday's blog I die a little inside.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


My advice: Don't go.

I've been avoiding the Alpha Fail, like all TARD that hasn't been at least filtered through someone else's brain, for a while.

I did read his "book" however.

I woke up in hospital having had a massive brain fart (proper medical term that). Apparently blood was gushing from my nose as I read each page and I had to be kept alive by infusions of blood and minced copies of useful philosophy books.

There comes a point when the TARD is simply too powerful for one person to encompass and they collapse into a TARDhole. This is what has happened to Vox Doofus. Dangerous to get close to. I suggest a dose of rationality, go read the Wikipedia entry on The Enlightenment. It usually brightens my day.

Louis
Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on Mar. 19 2009,06:25



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Does anyone here play MMORPGs? I've heard interesting things about WoW, but never played a game. I did have an old version of just plain Warcraft for my old Mac about...umm....some years ago (10 I think) and it was fun ish.  
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



In the same register (although a bit under technicaly), but FREE, there is Rappelz.

I've played it for about 2 months last year, and it was aaaarrrggghh ("higlhy enjoyable", or "quick, more boiling oil", or "Your wife is a big hyppo").

I've had to put a stop to it for fear of my social life. But it's still really nice and entertaining, and one thing I liked with it is that there was a server with no PvP whatsoever, which greatly reduces one's need to buy a shotgun and get into IP-localisation lessons...
Posted by: k.e.. on Mar. 19 2009,08:21

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Mar. 19 2009,14:25)
   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Does anyone here play MMORPGs? I've heard interesting things about WoW, but never played a game. I did have an old version of just plain Warcraft for my old Mac about...umm....some years ago (10 I think) and it was fun ish.  
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



In the same register (although a bit under technicaly), but FREE, there is Rappelz.

I've played it for about 2 months last year, and it was aaaarrrggghh ("higlhy enjoyable", or "quick, more boiling oil", or "Your wife is a big hyppo").

I've had to put a stop to it for fear of my social life. But it's still really nice and entertaining, and one thing I liked with it is that there was a server with no PvP whatsoever, which greatly reduces one's need to buy a shotgun and get into IP-localisation lessons...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------




So a divorce is immenint?
Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on Mar. 19 2009,08:25

Quote (k.e.. @ Mar. 19 2009,15:21)
Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Mar. 19 2009,14:25)
   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Does anyone here play MMORPGs? I've heard interesting things about WoW, but never played a game. I did have an old version of just plain Warcraft for my old Mac about...umm....some years ago (10 I think) and it was fun ish.  
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



In the same register (although a bit under technicaly), but FREE, there is Rappelz.

I've played it for about 2 months last year, and it was aaaarrrggghh ("higlhy enjoyable", or "quick, more boiling oil", or "Your wife is a big hyppo").

I've had to put a stop to it for fear of my social life. But it's still really nice and entertaining, and one thing I liked with it is that there was a server with no PvP whatsoever, which greatly reduces one's need to buy a shotgun and get into IP-localisation lessons...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------




So a divorce is immenint?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


First, your pic doesn't show.

Second, I've heard somewhere that I need a wife in order to divorce. Should someone provide one to me, I'll make sure your prediction happens*.


*Really fast.

Edit: and now it does show. blast, I feel stoopid!
Posted by: Richardthughes on Mar. 19 2009,09:35

VD sticks it to science, and he can, because of his IQ.

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/03/if-you-hand-us-hammer.html >
Posted by: Badger3k on Mar. 19 2009,09:50

Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 19 2009,09:35)
VD sticks it to science, and he can, because of his IQ.

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/03/if-you-hand-us-hammer.html >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Ok, now I'm bleeding out my ears.  And not just from El Primo Tard, the prophet Teddy.  The commenters are similarly idiots.  Of course, we got the anti-vax, and the "why trust science when it changes all the time" - what else is there for morons to feed on.  

I forgot that, like a bunch of others, that Vox is supposed to be highly intelligent - didn't he claim Mensa membership?  If so, I'm not surprised - most of the people who go around claiming to be in Mensa are really disconnected from reality and really egotistical and arrogantly proclaim their own superiority.  Is this common, or is it the vocal minority that gets all the attention and most Mensa members are ok?
Posted by: FrankH on Mar. 19 2009,10:15

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Mar. 19 2009,08:25)
Edit: and now it does show. blast, I feel stoopid!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Welcome to my world!
Posted by: Louis on Mar. 19 2009,11:16

Quote (Badger3k @ Mar. 19 2009,15:50)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 19 2009,09:35)
VD sticks it to science, and he can, because of his IQ.

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/03/if-you-hand-us-hammer.html >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Ok, now I'm bleeding out my ears.  And not just from El Primo Tard, the prophet Teddy.  The commenters are similarly idiots.  Of course, we got the anti-vax, and the "why trust science when it changes all the time" - what else is there for morons to feed on.  

I forgot that, like a bunch of others, that Vox is supposed to be highly intelligent - didn't he claim Mensa membership?  If so, I'm not surprised - most of the people who go around claiming to be in Mensa are really disconnected from reality and really egotistical and arrogantly proclaim their own superiority.  Is this common, or is it the vocal minority that gets all the attention and most Mensa members are ok?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I joined Mensa at 16 years old and left at 16 and a bit years old. The "bit" was all it took me to figure out that I was paying a group of people to tell me how clever I was, and thus, they were more clever than me. In hindsight I shouldn't have been bloody stupid enough to join in the first place. I'll put it down to teenage insecurity and hormones.

I've taken various proper IQ tests since then and been happy with the results, but really it's just something to keep my hand in. Logic problems can be fun.....

....Oh fuck have I just confessed to logic problems being fun and liking an MMORPG? In one day! Pig's knackers!

I think I just outed myself as an uber geeky nerdlinger super spod. I swear blind this:



isn't me.

Promise. No really. Honest.

Louis

P.S. The few Mensa people I met were okay, but then I met about a dozen or so, nearly 20 years ago, so hardly anything to form a good judgement with.

P.P.S. I *am* better than everyone else, but not because I once joined Mensa. It's because my Mummy says so. Even better, Arden's Mummy says so too. And she should know.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Mar. 19 2009,11:19



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
And she should know.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



based on sample size or SAMPLE SIZE?
Posted by: Richardthughes on Mar. 19 2009,11:28

He's now deleting links to this study:

< http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/347/19/1477 >

which strongly suggest he's full of shit.
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Mar. 19 2009,11:38

yah Loose you are a pretty good queef.  but you could lose all that body hair brain power and still do your job.  which by the way, is going undone.  back into the cage!
Posted by: khan on Mar. 19 2009,11:41

I was a member of MENSA for a decade or so.  A good way of socializing when new to an area.  Most of the folks were OK. I stopped renewing membership as I wasn't going to any events.  Now and then the send me a letter asking me to renew.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Mar. 19 2009,13:31

He's just been done with the 'juxtaposed quote':



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Vax? Nay!    3/19/09 1:20 PM
"Can you show us a single individual with an IQ +1SD that does not understand the scientific method? "

Here


"No more BS "no statistical correlation has been found", no more "no peer reviewed study has proven", no more dancing and ducking and evading the obvious solution of actually putting the scientific method to work. Interpolation and extrapolation aren't sufficient. Statistical analysis isn't enough. Peer reviewed metastudies are of zero value. Pump 1,000 kids full of toxinsvaccines according to the complete schedule and leave a control group of 1,000 completely unvaccinated. Then report on how they're doing every six months. There's no excuse not to do it, it's eminently doable."

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Editz for spellink
Posted by: Richardthughes on Mar. 19 2009,13:47

And he's deleted it already.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Mar. 26 2009,13:55

He's got new hardware comming out:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/03/on-engineers.html >
Posted by: Richardthughes on April 09 2009,13:50

Reciprocating Bill's critique is being discussed towards the end:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/04/farrago-of-fandangos.html >
Posted by: Skullboy on April 28 2009,13:27

Vox Day, quoted without comment:

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------

Invisible Pink Unicorn: 4/28/09 10:26 AM:
Also, nice lumping together of Socrates, Russell, Dawkins, and Jesus-scorning, like they all go together, as if those four address the same intellectual problems.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You clearly failed to understand the point. Jesus Christ - or whoever wrote his dialogue, if you prefer - is clearly operating at a more formidable intellectual level than Socrates, Russell, or Dawkins. Those jokers couldn't even handle me, let alone Paul or Augustine.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



From < here >.
Posted by: Richardthughes on April 28 2009,14:33

from same:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Do you think economic actions are imaginary too? Because they're equally difficult to study using the scientific matter. It's a variant of the quantum problem.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Errrrrr.
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on April 28 2009,16:18

rich just lemme say I am glad that you are keeping this mine open.  in tough times the seams run thin at UD and TT, regulations and arbitrary mine owners keep the union guys out, 404 explosions pollute the air with the dust of oil soaked straw homos, but in those days Vox Day is like a breath of fresh tard.  i just wanted to thank you for that.  and ask you to find some more tard for me.
Posted by: Richardthughes on April 28 2009,16:26

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ April 28 2009,16:18)
rich just lemme say I am glad that you are keeping this mine open.  in tough times the seams run thin at UD and TT, regulations and arbitrary mine owners keep the union guys out, 404 explosions pollute the air with the dust of oil soaked straw homos, but in those days Vox Day is like a breath of fresh tard.  i just wanted to thank you for that.  and ask you to find some more tard for me.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The VD mine is a good one. As an attractor for unhinged science-denying right wingers, its a top top draw.

His evo posts are the best. He doesn't like that evolution one bit. Its rubbish at predicting teh future, so its not proper science. He wont actually say what his view on origins are,  presumably because teh return fire would be depleted uranium versus the peashooter he employs.

'Evolution is made up'. We dance the dance of the creationist canards, the Lucy twist, the Peppered Moth Jive. Then someone mentions ERVs, so his demented wife is put on high alert to delete any posts that mention these.
Posted by: Lou FCD on April 28 2009,18:39

I didn't really have any interest in Venereal Day. But then you mentioned the demented wife...


Posted by: Richardthughes on April 28 2009,18:48

Quote (Lou FCD @ April 28 2009,18:39)
I didn't really have any interest in Venereal Day. But then you mentioned the demented wife...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


"Spacebunny" - 100% humorless fundy tard.
Posted by: Skullboy on April 28 2009,23:23

That same thread keeps on giving.
VD:
 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Look at it this way. X=designer and Y=design. We know Y exists, so it is equal to at least 1. Dawkins states that X MUST be greater than Y. I contradict and state that X may or may not be greater than Y. We don't have a value for X, but we do know that if there is no designer, then X=0, obviously. However, we know that 0 is not greater than 1, therefore Dawkins has to be incorrect.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



< Never argue with a Sicilian when death is on the line! >
Posted by: Badger3k on April 28 2009,23:57

Quote (Skullboy @ April 28 2009,23:23)
That same thread keeps on giving.
VD:
   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Look at it this way. X=designer and Y=design. We know Y exists, so it is equal to at least 1. Dawkins states that X MUST be greater than Y. I contradict and state that X may or may not be greater than Y. We don't have a value for X, but we do know that if there is no designer, then X=0, obviously. However, we know that 0 is not greater than 1, therefore Dawkins has to be incorrect.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



< Never argue with a Sicilian when death is on the line! >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


WTF?  Start out with "We know that Y exists" - since when?  We have the appearance of design, but they still need to try to show that "Y = 1"

Not only that, but the writer has no clue as to what the argument is.  Completely clueless.  :O
Posted by: Henry J on April 29 2009,22:44

Should somebody mention that "design" and "designer" aren't numbers? And that they aren't even members of a well ordered series?

Henry
Posted by: Richardthughes on April 30 2009,00:27

Evo Incredulity:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/04/skeptics-justification.html >
Posted by: Richardthughes on May 30 2009,11:13

Grrr.. another sock silenced:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/05/frauds-of-science.html >
Posted by: Richardthughes on June 03 2009,08:56

Ted advocated voting BNP:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/06/ukip-in-uk.html >

this is them:

< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party >


I eagerly await his next post on "Roundink up ze Jewz"
Posted by: blipey on June 03 2009,09:35

Wow.  They seem like nice guys.  How again is Vox qualified to lecture the British electorate?
Posted by: Richardthughes on June 03 2009,09:36

Quote (blipey @ June 03 2009,09:35)
Wow.  They seem like nice guys.  How again is Vox qualified to lecture the British electorate?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


He's read the bible.
Posted by: Badger3k on June 03 2009,09:54

Quote (Richardthughes @ June 03 2009,09:36)
Quote (blipey @ June 03 2009,09:35)
Wow.  They seem like nice guys.  How again is Vox qualified to lecture the British electorate?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


He's read the bible.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


And he's in MENSA.  Can't forget that.  And he carries a sword in his picture - surely that means something in a somewhat monarchy.
Posted by: Richardthughes on June 28 2009,18:20

Moon Landing Denialism?

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009....es.html >
Posted by: 1of63 on June 28 2009,18:29

Quote (blipey @ June 03 2009,09:35)
Wow.  They seem like nice guys.  How again is Vox qualified to lecture the British electorate?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The standard British response to a lecture from Vox Day will be a gesture involving two fingers and a reference to the Biblical commandment to go forth and multiply.
Posted by: Badger3k on June 28 2009,19:58

Quote (Richardthughes @ June 28 2009,18:20)
Moon Landing Denialism?

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009....es.html >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Why am I not surprised?
Posted by: Texas Teach on June 28 2009,20:19

Quote (Richardthughes @ June 28 2009,18:20)
Moon Landing Denialism?

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009....es.html >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


But does he believe in ghosts?
Posted by: Richardthughes on July 14 2009,08:47

SCIENTISTS R TEH STOOPID.


< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/07/scientists-are-stupid.html >
Posted by: Richardthughes on July 14 2009,08:51

From the thread:

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Christianity: the belief that some cosmic Jewish zombie can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove some evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because some rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

Makes perfect sense.

Who will I believe? Jack Chick or science?

URL=http://www.chick.com/catalog/TractList.asp


---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: dogdidit on July 14 2009,09:44

Quote (1of63 @ June 28 2009,18:29)
Quote (blipey @ June 03 2009,09:35)
Wow.  They seem like nice guys.  How again is Vox qualified to lecture the British electorate?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The standard British response to a lecture from Vox Day will be a gesture involving two fingers and a reference to the Biblical commandment to go forth and multiply.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Re the British two-fingered salute: how is it dis-ambiguated from V for Victory?
Posted by: Gunthernacus on July 14 2009,10:07

Quote (dogdidit @ July 14 2009,10:44)
Quote (1of63 @ June 28 2009,18:29)
Quote (blipey @ June 03 2009,09:35)
Wow.  They seem like nice guys.  How again is Vox qualified to lecture the British electorate?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The standard British response to a lecture from Vox Day will be a gesture involving two fingers and a reference to the Biblical commandment to go forth and multiply.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Re the British two-fingered salute: how is it dis-ambiguated from V for Victory?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I think that the V for victory shows the palm of the hand, while the 2-fingered salute shows the back of the hand to the recipient (and a beckoning-type motion of the hand, too?).
Posted by: Richardthughes on July 14 2009,10:11

Correct. legend has it the  'swearing' V dates back to the battle of Agincourt:


< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_sign >
Posted by: Richardthughes on July 29 2009,21:38

A regular muses on evolutionary theory:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/07/mailvox-simulating-evolution.html >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Evolution... Supposedly has it's beginnings in a primordial soup. (sigh)

All this evolution stuff begs the questions:

1. Supposedly everything goes back to the big bang. Where did all this matter come from?
2. If the right chemicals were present in a primordial soup and then something happens, (i.e. lightning, an aliens cigarette butt (or whatever aliens smoke) being tossed into the pot, maybe a chemical battery was formed and discharged) the right chemicals form together to form DNA on the molecular level and poof! A single cell creature is formed.

What did this little single cell creature eat? Because in order to eat, something must die. Unless they are a plant. They make food from soil and the sun. Now if this little cell is of plant type, Then how come mammals, reptiles and fish are not somewhat like plants? And how come the single cell could survive to reproduce (asexually I assume) to make up the world we live in now? How come the first little guy didn't starve to death for lack of food?

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Bet you "scientists" never thought of that..
Posted by: Marion Delgado on July 29 2009,22:28

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzomg!

Pwned!


D00000med!


WE GIVE UP! SORRY, JESUS!

I'm no kin to the monkey, no no no
The monkey's no kin to me, yeah yeah yeah
I don't know much about his ancestors
But mine didn't swing from a tree

This monkey business has got to stop
Because it just isn't true
The teachers who believe evolution
Would be better off in a zoo!
Posted by: Richardthughes on Aug. 03 2009,02:47

Idiot Vox gets duped:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/08/good-news-they-found-hospital.html >
Posted by: Richardthughes on Aug. 25 2009,09:42

FAILSAUCE:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/08/mailvox-five-questions.html >

anyone who thinks VD is bright should behold the reasoning in this one..
Posted by: J-Dog on Aug. 25 2009,10:23

Quote (Richardthughes @ Aug. 25 2009,09:42)
FAILSAUCE:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/08/mailvox-five-questions.html >

anyone who thinks VD is bright should behold the reasoning in this one..
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Thanks for the link, but I could not force myself to finish reading the words he put down.  His wring makes Denyse look sane.  

ps:  I don't think VD is bright, I think VD is a dangerous disease that should be wiped out to make the world a better place to live.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Aug. 26 2009,20:20

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/08/there-is-no-marital-rape.html >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
First, there is no such thing as marital rape. Once consent is formally given in public ceremony, it cannot be revoked; the form in which marital consent is revoked is well-established. It is called divorce. ....
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Religious, 'women as property' idiocy. I almost feel sorry for his idiot wife (stupidest of a litter of 12).
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Aug. 26 2009,20:59

Quote (Richardthughes @ Aug. 26 2009,21:20)
< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/08/there-is-no-marital-rape.html >

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
First, there is no such thing as marital rape. Once consent is formally given in public ceremony, it cannot be revoked; the form in which marital consent is revoked is well-established. It is called divorce. ....
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Religious, 'women as property' idiocy. I almost feel sorry for his idiot wife (stupidest of a litter of 12).
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


thats the sort of tard on which we need to get gordon mullings tardificating

UD could stand a dope of that sort of stupid.  VD, well, rich, you know everyone expects that kinda shit there.  UD is good because while most of the tards probably agree they at least don't say it out loud.  let's make 'em
Posted by: Richardthughes on Sep. 06 2009,12:16

Teddy moans about Penn Jillette, so my sock socks it to him:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Peter File    9/6/09 11:04 AM
VD: 9/6/09 12:35 AM:
small fish doesn't even begin to describe his insignificance.


To be clear, Penn Jillette > you.


Quote
VD    9/6/09 11:25 AM
Peter File: 9/6/09 11:04 AM:
To be clear, Penn Jillette > you.
Yes, I'm sure intellectuals, think tanks, and politicians everywhere give a damn about an American comedian's opinion on... anything. Stephanie Meyer and Britney Spears are even more famous than Mr. Jillette and I don't worry much about what they think either.

Hey, but at least he managed to write a book about playing in traffic. With help.


Quote
Peter File    9/6/09 11:46 AM
VD: 9/6/09 11:25 AM:

Peter File: 9/6/09 11:04 AM:
To be clear, Penn Jillette > you.
Yes, I'm sure intellectuals, think tanks, and politicians everywhere give a damn about an American comedian's opinion on... anything. Stephanie Meyer and Britney Spears are even more famous than Mr. Jillette and I don't worry much about what they think either.

Hey, but at least he managed to write a book about playing in traffic. With help.


Are you in intellectual circles? I Handn't noticed.


Quote
Peter File    9/6/09 12:13 PM
VD: 9/6/09 11:25 AM:
Yes, I'm sure intellectuals, think tanks, and politicians everywhere give a damn about an American comedian's opinion on... anything.


Jillette is a Fellow at the libertarian think tank, the Cato Institute.

Bwahahahahahahahhahahahaha


Fact-checking. Something the reality based community does. Another reason Penn Jillette > you.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: Richardthughes on Sep. 18 2009,16:03

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/09/fearful-hypocrites.html >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Tomato, tomahto. PZ knows perfectly well I'd kick his ass on any subject, including his area of scientific expertise. I've got around +2SD IQ on him and I'm better educated. But he can keep running away and I'll keep laughing at him, that suits me just fine too. Dawkins is too dumb to pay attention to criticism, which is why his arguments, to the extent they even are arguments, never improve.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Thank you your gorgeous sexy fundy twat!
Posted by: Richardthughes on Sep. 21 2009,11:31

Worth saving:
(sorry about the format)

[quote class="userCommentQuote"]<b>Hylomorphic: 9/20/09 12:33 PM:</b> <br><blockquote class="userCommentQuote"><b>Jason1975: 9/20/09 3:20 AM:</b>
Actually Hylomorpic, you've just made Vox's point for him.

Gould made the same point, that if evolution was reversed and allowed to run again then the outcome would be different than what we have. However lack of repeatability equals lack of predictability equals lack of status as a scientific theory.

You last point fails on exactly that point. You can't claim that the evidence for evolution is empirical if evolution doesn't predict anything you can actually empirically test.</blockquote>

A common point of confusion among those whose understanding of the philosophy of science goes no further than the first chapter of their chemistry book is that science demands the prediction of outcomes of future experiments.

While it's certainly true that the easiest and most reliable method of acquiring scientific data is by planning and running repeatable experiments, this is often impractical or impossible. Particularly for fields like archaeology, geology, and paleontology, which primarily investigate past events. It is not essential that the event discovered and added to the data set be repeatable. It is only essential that the observation of the event itself be repeatable--other scientists can come look at those dinosaur fossils, for instance.

Astrophysics is another example of a science which cannot make repeatable experiments, though it frequently does deal with the future. It is simply not possible to experimentally repeat sending a particular comet around the sun. Which is why, when an interesting celestial event occurs which is rare enough that future observations will be difficult, multiple scientific organizations try to train their telescopes on it to mitigate observer bias.



<blockquote class="userCommentQuote"><b>VD: 9/20/09 6:47 AM:</b>
Agreed.  So what?  One can't reasonably claim the credibility of scientific rigor and then complain that doing the actual science is too hard.  The fact that you CAN'T do it is conclusive evidence that you AREN'T doing it.  Most evolutionary "science" is in fact the use of proxies for science.  Not unreasonable, but not science either.</blockquote>

I was trying to make the point that a method unreliable for the social sciences may be much more reliable for the hard sciences. What did you think I was trying to say?

<blockquote class="userCommentQuote"><b>VD: 9/20/09 6:47 AM:</b>
<blockquote class="userCommentQuote"><b>Hylomorphic: 9/19/09 1:03 PM:</b>
Second, biology makes little use of backtesting in the way you describe it. Evolutionary biology, as far as I'm aware, makes none to speak of. </blockquote>Real biology doesn't.  Evolution apologists certainly do.  That's what many the citations of the fossile record are based upon.  Or look at the way the discovery of the Tiktaalik fossil is portrayed.</blockquote>

You must have revised your definition of "backtesting," and you look rather like you've fallen into the same fundamental confusion as Jason. It is not backtesting merely because it deals with past events; it only becomes backtesting when a simulated model is run. That method is not (as far as I know) used by biologists.

In fact, it would be a sign of the strength of evolutionary theory if the sort of backtesting you describe could be done (though, as I said, I think that's a wildly optimistic hope). It would verify as never before its theoretical soundness.

As it happens, Tiktaalik was discovered through logical inference from known factors in the fish-to-reptile transition. For the transition to occur in the way believed, such and such a kind of creature would have to have existed at some point, and it probably would have had to live in such and such an area at such and such a time. A prediction having been made, the scientists went out into the field to make their observations. And in this case, the observation confirmed the hypothesis.

This is a textbook example of scientific discovery. Not "backtesting."<hr />[/quote]
Posted by: Henry J on Sep. 21 2009,22:37

Sounds like somebody is taking "prediction" to mean predicting every result in infinite detail. Science wouldn't work if infinite detail was necessary; the point is that some predictions can be made that can be tested.

Henry
Posted by: Richardthughes on Sep. 23 2009,14:12

Falsification: Something else Vox Day doesn't understand:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/09/mailvox-falsification.html >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
R wonders what would qualify:


I'd very much appreciate it if you would elaborate on what you would consider a falsification of Christianity.


There are numerous possibilities, including:

1) The discovery of Jesus Christ's body.
2) An intact Temple in Jerusalem.
3) The end of war or poverty.
4) The elimination of the Christian Church.
5) Immortality science.
6) A demonstrated ability to avoid Biblical sin.
7) The destruction of the Jewish people.

These are all material things, easily and objectively observable. It is incorrect to claim that religion is magically beyond scientific observation. God may be, but it's readily apparent that most religions, including Christianity, are not.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



2) is the only remotely useable one.
Posted by: Beelzebub667 on Sep. 25 2009,04:30

Someone already had the name Beelzebub so I had to take the next number.

The problem with Item 1 is that a lot of believers have already stated that if Simcha Jacobovici actually did discover the tomb of Jesus it still wouldn't convince them that the Resurrection is bunk.

To the larger question of whether Vox Day has the slightest clue what "falsifiable" means.  Of course not!  Vox Day never understands what he's talking about -- and never lets that stop him.  Falsifiable means you have to be able to conceive an experiment that would show something is false, not that there are fortuitous events that may or may not transpire showing something to be false if you're very lucky.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Sep. 25 2009,08:51

Quote (Beelzebub667 @ Sep. 25 2009,04:30)
Someone already had the name Beelzebub so I had to take the next number.

The problem with Item 1 is that a lot of believers have already stated that if Simcha Jacobovici actually did discover the tomb of Jesus it still wouldn't convince them that the Resurrection is bunk.

To the larger question of whether Vox Day has the slightest clue what "falsifiable" means.  Of course not!  Vox Day never understands what he's talking about -- and never lets that stop him.  Falsifiable means you have to be able to conceive an experiment that would show something is false, not that there are fortuitous events that may or may not transpire showing something to be false if you're very lucky.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Welcome Beelzebub!

Your posts used to shine a little ray of reality into Vox's cave and provide much needed critique. Of course that's incompatible with his ego. But I was (am) a big fan. I hope you find some of the other threads interesting - are you a logician?
Posted by: Richardthughes on Sep. 25 2009,09:11

quick to rally to any neocon cause, he's upset with global warming again:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/09/agw-biggest-science-fraud-yet.html >

Or maybe he doesn't want us delaying the rapture any longer?

edit to add this nugget from Vox:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Actually, the main reason I'm so strongly against the AGW/CC BS is that I'm from Minnesota. You know, an area that used to be COMPLETELY COVERED WITH ICE. During the years I lived there, I happened to notice that IT IS NO LONGER COMPLETELY COVERED WITH ICE. Ergo, the rational conclusion is that the planet has been warming considerably for quite some time without any help from Man.

Also, I fail to see any significant downside to the sudden and catastrophic inundation of the East and West Coasts portrayed in the more hysterical global warming scenarios.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Sep. 25 2009,09:39

Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 25 2009,10:11)
quick to rally to any neocon cause, he's upset with global warming again:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/09/agw-biggest-science-fraud-yet.html >

Or maybe he doesn't want us delaying the rapture any longer?

edit to add this nugget from Vox:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Actually, the main reason I'm so strongly against the AGW/CC BS is that I'm from Minnesota. You know, an area that used to be COMPLETELY COVERED WITH ICE. During the years I lived there, I happened to notice that IT IS NO LONGER COMPLETELY COVERED WITH ICE. Ergo, the rational conclusion is that the planet has been warming considerably for quite some time without any help from Man.

Also, I fail to see any significant downside to the sudden and catastrophic inundation of the East and West Coasts portrayed in the more hysterical global warming scenarios.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


---------------------QUOTE-------------------


themmar fancy east coast and west coast librulz!  

VD thinks he is a god damned Noah
Posted by: ppb on Sep. 25 2009,09:44

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Sep. 25 2009,10:39)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 25 2009,10:11)
quick to rally to any neocon cause, he's upset with global warming again:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/09/agw-biggest-science-fraud-yet.html >

Or maybe he doesn't want us delaying the rapture any longer?

edit to add this nugget from Vox:

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Actually, the main reason I'm so strongly against the AGW/CC BS is that I'm from Minnesota. You know, an area that used to be COMPLETELY COVERED WITH ICE. During the years I lived there, I happened to notice that IT IS NO LONGER COMPLETELY COVERED WITH ICE. Ergo, the rational conclusion is that the planet has been warming considerably for quite some time without any help from Man.

Also, I fail to see any significant downside to the sudden and catastrophic inundation of the East and West Coasts portrayed in the more hysterical global warming scenarios.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


---------------------QUOTE-------------------


themmar fancy east coast and west coast librulz!  

VD thinks he is a god damned Noah
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


He lives in that "Real" America that God and Sarah Palin love so much.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Sep. 25 2009,09:47

Quote (ppb @ Sep. 25 2009,09:44)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Sep. 25 2009,10:39)
 
Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 25 2009,10:11)
quick to rally to any neocon cause, he's upset with global warming again:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/09/agw-biggest-science-fraud-yet.html >

Or maybe he doesn't want us delaying the rapture any longer?

edit to add this nugget from Vox:

   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Actually, the main reason I'm so strongly against the AGW/CC BS is that I'm from Minnesota. You know, an area that used to be COMPLETELY COVERED WITH ICE. During the years I lived there, I happened to notice that IT IS NO LONGER COMPLETELY COVERED WITH ICE. Ergo, the rational conclusion is that the planet has been warming considerably for quite some time without any help from Man.

Also, I fail to see any significant downside to the sudden and catastrophic inundation of the East and West Coasts portrayed in the more hysterical global warming scenarios.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


---------------------QUOTE-------------------


themmar fancy east coast and west coast librulz!  

VD thinks he is a god damned Noah
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


He lives in that "Real" America that God and Sarah Palin love so much.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


He lives in Italy now. But tells America what's-what.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Sep. 25 2009,09:58



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
It's clear that "Hylomorph" is the previously banned commenter named Rich, for example.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Hylomorph is not me, but I'm liking his posts. Nice to think I've induced paranoia. Oh wait, he already had that in abundance.


TEH_LIBRRULS_R_COMMING_WITH_THEY'RE_FASHIZUM
Posted by: ppb on Sep. 25 2009,10:21

Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 25 2009,10:47)
He lives in Italy now. But tells America what's-what.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I stand corrected.

He lives in that "Real" Italy that God and Sarah Palin love so much.



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
But tells America what's-what.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Just like Sarah Palin!
Posted by: Richardthughes on Sep. 25 2009,15:45

Vox:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Do as you like. I make a habit of entertaining far more outlandish concepts on a regular basis. That's one reason why I have been able to nail price movements to a 99 percent precision 11 months in advance while all the experts were wildly off.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



O_o



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Wow. You must be a billionaire by now!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: Beelzebub667 on Sep. 26 2009,03:34

Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 25 2009,08:51)
Your posts used to shine a little ray of reality into Vox's cave and provide much needed critique. Of course that's incompatible with his ego. But I was (am) a big fan. I hope you find some of the other threads interesting - are you a logician?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Thanks.  No, not a logician, though I've done the obligatory reading of Godel, Escher, Back, and I try not to make the usual mistake of reading too much into the Godel proof -- which is becoming unfortunately fashionable.

VD has many problems beyond extreme ego inflation; many stem from his utter devotion to unexamined belief.
Posted by: Henry J on Sep. 26 2009,19:11



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
VD has many problems beyond extreme ego inflation;
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Like a bad choice of name, given alternate meaning of the initials?

Henry
Posted by: Beelzebub667 on Sep. 27 2009,03:29

Oops, I mean Bach.  I was tired, so, so tired.  I felt like showing up here saying "My name is Beelzebub...and I'm a tardaholic, Ahh--huh, huh, sniffle.  It's been 3 days since I last visited Vox Popoli."

Seriously though, I'm trying to cut back.  The lunatics are now running that asylum -- and you know what?  You aren't going to change them.  They're so far gone that they're never coming back.  But the reason places like this are still important is that I feel sorry for the dupe who shows up at VP and says yeah, I'm going to read more and take this guy seriously -- and so the insanity spreads like a disease.  If there isn't at least the vague opportunity for counterpoint, that's a grave error.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Sep. 27 2009,10:08

Quote (Beelzebub667 @ Sep. 27 2009,03:29)
Oops, I mean Bach.  I was tired, so, so tired.  I felt like showing up here saying "My name is Beelzebub...and I'm a tardaholic, Ahh--huh, huh, sniffle.  It's been 3 days since I last visited Vox Popoli."

Seriously though, I'm trying to cut back.  The lunatics are now running that asylum -- and you know what?  You aren't going to change them.  They're so far gone that they're never coming back.  But the reason places like this are still important is that I feel sorry for the dupe who shows up at VP and says yeah, I'm going to read more and take this guy seriously -- and so the insanity spreads like a disease.  If there isn't at least the vague opportunity for counterpoint, that's a grave error.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Spacebunny is on high alert for any rationals that might have crossed their boarders.
Posted by: dnmlthr on Sep. 27 2009,11:04

Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 27 2009,16:08)
Spacebunny is on high alert for any rationals that might have crossed their boarders.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The minutemen of tard.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Oct. 02 2009,19:54

Debate!

< http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=3660 >
Posted by: midwifetoad on Oct. 03 2009,00:35

Quote (Richardthughes @ Oct. 02 2009,19:54)
Debate!

< http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=3660 >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Gets my vote for worst web page design of the month.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Oct. 03 2009,14:00

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009....ii.html >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
cshizzle: 10/3/09 11:08 AM:
At the conclusion of this discourse with Luke on why you are a Christian, would you be interested in going into a full blown debate with him about evolution?


No, let someone else take the next crack. I'm really not interested in debating evolution with anyone who doesn't have a PhD in biology. The average individual can't be expected to have any idea what I'm talking about, as we've seen already.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: Badger3k on Oct. 03 2009,15:55

Quote (Richardthughes @ Oct. 03 2009,14:00)
< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009....ii.html >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
cshizzle: 10/3/09 11:08 AM:
At the conclusion of this discourse with Luke on why you are a Christian, would you be interested in going into a full blown debate with him about evolution?


No, let someone else take the next crack. I'm really not interested in debating evolution with anyone who doesn't have a PhD in biology. The average individual can't be expected to have any idea what I'm talking about, as we've seen already.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Well, he has part of that right, but not for the reasons he thinks.  I read a bit of the first posting of the letter/exchange with Vox and Luke, and the lack of empathy, humanity, and even basic logical thought among the Voxtards is simply incredible.  At least some of them are just naked in their belief that they are right because they are right.  I'd say it was surprising, but having seen Teddy and his echo chamber or tard, it would take a lot to surprise me about him.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Oct. 03 2009,21:43

I spy olegt over there...
Posted by: Wesley R. Elsberry on Oct. 04 2009,00:35

Somebody who comments over there should give a response to the fellow saying that < "Pasteur was a creationist" >...



---------------------QUOTE-------------------

Virulence appears in a new light which cannot but be alarming to humanity; unless nature, in her evolution down the ages (an evolution which, as we now know, has been going on for millions, nay, hundreds of millions of years), has finally exhausted all the possibilities of producing virulent or contagious diseases -- which does not seem very likely.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



A pretty flexible creationist, it would seem.
Posted by: Beelzebub667 on Oct. 04 2009,03:53

Quote (Richardthughes @ Oct. 03 2009,21:43)
I spy olegt over there...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I'd never seen the crackpot index, but it does nail VD pretty perfectly.  Notice his elegant sidestep at being pwnded -- it's not his theory, just one he subscribes to.  Very lame, but when you're Vox Day, lame is sufficient.
Posted by: olegt on Oct. 04 2009,08:06

Quote (Beelzebub667 @ Oct. 04 2009,03:53)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Oct. 03 2009,21:43)
I spy olegt over there...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I'd never seen the crackpot index, but it does nail VD pretty perfectly.  Notice his elegant sidestep at being pwnded -- it's not his theory, just one he subscribes to.  Very lame, but when you're Vox Day, lame is sufficient.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Crackpots have universal features, so Baez catalogued them.  Teddy is no exception.
Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on Oct. 04 2009,08:44

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Mar. 19 2009,05:20)
Anybody here ever play Diplomacy?

Now there is an intense game.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Sorry for the late reply RB, but Diplo is one of my fav games. we even had a great session 3 years ago in full period costumes, just for the fun of it. Of course, we still allow spying before round resolutions :D

Definitely a great game of the mind and cunning!
Posted by: Richardthughes on Oct. 04 2009,15:08

Oleg, love your slapdown!
Posted by: Louis on Oct. 04 2009,18:50

Quote (olegt @ Oct. 04 2009,14:06)
Quote (Beelzebub667 @ Oct. 04 2009,03:53)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Oct. 03 2009,21:43)
I spy olegt over there...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I'd never seen the crackpot index, but it does nail VD pretty perfectly.  Notice his elegant sidestep at being pwnded -- it's not his theory, just one he subscribes to.  Very lame, but when you're Vox Day, lame is sufficient.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Crackpots have universal features, so Baez catalogued them.  Teddy is no exception.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Oh I agree absolutely. Denialists of all species basically do things the same way. You can substitute the terms "climate change" for "evolution" or "The Holocaust" or "medicine" in denialist screeds depending on whether you are talking to/reading an AGW denier, a creationist, a Holocaust denier or a homeopath. It's the same basic shit sundae with slightly different turd sprinkles.

Louis
Posted by: khan on Oct. 04 2009,18:55

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 04 2009,19:50)
Quote (olegt @ Oct. 04 2009,14:06)
Quote (Beelzebub667 @ Oct. 04 2009,03:53)
 
Quote (Richardthughes @ Oct. 03 2009,21:43)
I spy olegt over there...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I'd never seen the crackpot index, but it does nail VD pretty perfectly.  Notice his elegant sidestep at being pwnded -- it's not his theory, just one he subscribes to.  Very lame, but when you're Vox Day, lame is sufficient.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Crackpots have universal features, so Baez catalogued them.  Teddy is no exception.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Oh I agree absolutely. Denialists of all species basically do things the same way. You can substitute the terms "climate change" for "evolution" or "The Holocaust" or "medicine" in denialist screeds depending on whether you are talking to/reading an AGW denier, a creationist, a Holocaust denier or a homeopath. It's the same basic shit sundae with slightly different turd sprinkles.

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So true on the denialists.
Impervious to reality.
Posted by: Louis on Oct. 04 2009,19:09

Quote (khan @ Oct. 05 2009,00:55)
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 04 2009,19:50)
Quote (olegt @ Oct. 04 2009,14:06)
 
Quote (Beelzebub667 @ Oct. 04 2009,03:53)
 
Quote (Richardthughes @ Oct. 03 2009,21:43)
I spy olegt over there...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I'd never seen the crackpot index, but it does nail VD pretty perfectly.  Notice his elegant sidestep at being pwnded -- it's not his theory, just one he subscribes to.  Very lame, but when you're Vox Day, lame is sufficient.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Crackpots have universal features, so Baez catalogued them.  Teddy is no exception.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Oh I agree absolutely. Denialists of all species basically do things the same way. You can substitute the terms "climate change" for "evolution" or "The Holocaust" or "medicine" in denialist screeds depending on whether you are talking to/reading an AGW denier, a creationist, a Holocaust denier or a homeopath. It's the same basic shit sundae with slightly different turd sprinkles.

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So true on the denialists.
Impervious to reality.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It's an attitude I've never understood. I simply don't get the mentality that runs "I have this idea, I like this idea, I'll compare it as accurately as I can to reality, what do you mean it doesn't match? Reality must be wrong!". It beggars belief.....literally.

Louis
Posted by: olegt on Oct. 04 2009,20:53

Alas, economics was declared off-topic on that thread, presumably to enable people to discuss Satan, the Magi, and other relevant subjects.  I decided to play nice and am staying away from the echo chamber.  It gets boring after a while.  

But I thought that TARD watchers would be amused by the Ted's reaction to a quick comment "calculation? can we see the math?"



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
You're kidding, right? You come here to mock, and that's fine. It comes with the territory. But I have no interest in handing over successful models to people whose intention isn't merely to criticize, but denigrate. If you genuinely find my critics to be more perspicacious, then you would be better served by asking for their superior tools.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



That's again straight from the < Crackpot Index >: 20 points for talking about how great your theory is, but never actually explaining it.
Posted by: Badger3k on Oct. 04 2009,21:29

Rich - is that you commenting on this thread (http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=3660)?

I love the strength of the arguments - you had a believer in Plantiga's BS.  There's the guy who thinks that religion exists, and this proves...god?...I'm not sure.  People believe that Kunoiki footpads, and coffee enemas, work.  And that since a belief in gods is old, then atheists (a "new" theory) have to prove that they are wrong, completely ignoring the fact that these religions have yet to prove that they are right in the first place.  I think he's also the evolution denier, but as one of Teddy's drones, I'm sure there is a lot of denialism going on.  Then you have the postmodernist.  Nice collection.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Oct. 04 2009,22:45

Quote (Badger3k @ Oct. 04 2009,21:29)
Rich - is that you commenting on this thread (http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=3660)?

I love the strength of the arguments - you had a believer in Plantiga's BS.  There's the guy who thinks that religion exists, and this proves...god?...I'm not sure.  People believe that Kunoiki footpads, and coffee enemas, work.  And that since a belief in gods is old, then atheists (a "new" theory) have to prove that they are wrong, completely ignoring the fact that these religions have yet to prove that they are right in the first place.  I think he's also the evolution denier, but as one of Teddy's drones, I'm sure there is a lot of denialism going on.  Then you have the postmodernist.  Nice collection.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Aye, that's me.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Oct. 04 2009,22:51

Quote (olegt @ Oct. 04 2009,20:53)
Alas, economics was declared off-topic on that thread, presumably to enable people to discuss Satan, the Magi, and other relevant subjects.  I decided to play nice and am staying away from the echo chamber.  It gets boring after a while.  

But I thought that TARD watchers would be amused by the Ted's reaction to a quick comment "calculation? can we see the math?"

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
You're kidding, right? You come here to mock, and that's fine. It comes with the territory. But I have no interest in handing over successful models to people whose intention isn't merely to criticize, but denigrate. If you genuinely find my critics to be more perspicacious, then you would be better served by asking for their superior tools.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



That's again straight from the < Crackpot Index >: 20 points for talking about how great your theory is, but never actually explaining it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I bet the quick commenter is both handsome and not gay at all.
Posted by: Beelzebub667 on Oct. 05 2009,03:20

Quote (olegt @ Oct. 04 2009,20:53)
That's again straight from the < Crackpot Index >: 20 points for talking about how great your theory is, but never actually explaining it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I once took a college credit class where I was the only person in the room except for a guy who showed up without any preparation at all.  Somehow he thought he would pass anyway.  He spent four hours scribbling odd answers and essays on a math exam.  Crackpot in training.

I think the crackpot is someone who's ambition to be recognized outstrips both their talent and willingness to work.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Oct. 05 2009,08:27

Beale's problem is that he thinks he's a leading light, when in actuality he's an irrelevant crackpot with a handful of like-minded loonies. The classic contrarian, mainstream X must be wrong, and he gloms onto whatever denialism is doing the rounds and promotes it. I agree he's not that bright, (2 standard deviations...!) but he does work hard..at being wrong.
Posted by: Beelzebub667 on Oct. 06 2009,02:51

Quote (Richardthughes @ Oct. 05 2009,08:27)
but he does work hard..at being wrong.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I suppose that's true.  He does seem to crank out his fiction and absurd economic stuff, with the absolute sureness that he has a clearer vision than Nobel prize winners.  In terms of genuine creative insight, I've never gotten the impression that he's any brighter than a Mickey Mouse night light.  But he thinks he's a damn genius.
Posted by: Beelzebub667 on Oct. 06 2009,05:48

My latest comment on VP, soon to be deleted:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Okay, but


The reason Christianity is rationally justified even though the ontological argument, cosmological argument, teleological argument, the magical resurrection of Jesus, and the existence of evil do not entail the complete truth of Christianity – which, according to 1 Corinthians 13:11, every Christian knows we cannot know – but they still suffice to establish the Bible as the most credible authority regarding that which is unknown.


is still not a sentence. Before embarking on grammatical complexity, better check that you have the brainpower to do it.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



This is one of my peeves with Vox Day.  His writing is atrocious.  He apparently thinks that if he constructs a sentence that he personally can't parse, that it's some kind of testament to his intelligence.  Unfortunately grammar is grammar, and if you can't even write a grammatically correct sentence, you're not that smart.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Oct. 06 2009,07:39

You should just roll your username and IP address and have some fun. The resulting paranoia would be great.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Oct. 07 2009,12:55

Vox Tard:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Yeah, I'm not sure about the linguistic unification thing anymore. I probably had too much of Eco's In Search of the Perfect Language in mind when I wrote that; it wouldn't falsify Christianity so much as some esoteric Renaissance notions of pre-Babel history. As far as the alien recording goes, obviously if we had a video recording which showed there were no Roman crucifixions in Jerusalem from 10 BC to 10 AD, that would falsify Christianity.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: Richardthughes on Oct. 13 2009,07:20

Thus Spake Beale:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/10/letter-to-vox-day-iii.html >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
You may quite reasonably find it annoying that I don't bother to prove the documentary support for what I am saying. What you don't appear to have grasped is that in addition to feeling it is often unnecessary, this is also a form of showing mercy. Those who demand for detailed and conclusive proof from me often find they much preferred it when I was simply telling them that they were ignoramuses, because at least then they could pretend it was merely a matter of my opinion. Just remember that Luke asked for it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: olegt on Oct. 13 2009,08:31

Vox's comment posted at 4:44 am is a TARD gem:    

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
It boils down to one thing: scientists tend to be very bad at logic. So, they are not a credible authority on anything that relies upon logic rather than science.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: sledgehammer on Oct. 13 2009,14:56

< tz, on that same thread: >


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Which is why Evolutionists don't debate. The science - actual science, not the rituals by people in lab-coats - is NOT on their side. Someone else gave an example above of PZ talking about complexity "just being there". It isn't. They can't explain things like the Burgess Shale and the Cambrian Explosion. Science would say it was seeded. Evolutionists say it just all popped into existence via some unexplained and unidentified magical process.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Wow.
Just Wow.
Posted by: Quack on Oct. 13 2009,16:59



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Wow.
Just Wow.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Why just Wow? Looks like Wow Wow Wow Wow Wow ... to me.
Posted by: RDK on Oct. 16 2009,11:47



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
The science - actual science, not the rituals by people in lab-coats
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



I'm sorry....is there another type of science that I don't now about?

After seeing that quote I literally laughed so hard I hurt myself.  And then I wept.  I wept for humanity, even though there's a little voice inside of me that wants me to believe nobody can be so stupid.

Edit: was that choice nugget from Vox or one of his goons?
Posted by: Richardthughes on Oct. 16 2009,17:08

IQ - YOUR DOIN IT RONG.

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/10/occams-razor-is-correct-here.html >





---------------------QUOTE-------------------
0_o    10/16/09 5:02 PM
"There is an absolute ceiling on his IQ of 130" - Hmm - you can show this mathematically then? You got your knickers in a twist about Lukeprog's arbitrary percentages, care to show him how a 'super-intelligence' gets it's 'absolute ceiling'?

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Edited.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Oct. 16 2009,18:22

HAR HAR:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------


0_o    10/16/09 6:17 PM



VD: 10/16/09 6:13 PM:
Yes. And no, I'm sure you can work it out for yourself. It's not exactly difficult and all of the necessary information is readily available to you.




You're really not understanding 'IQ as a sampling exercise' are you? Let me hold your hand:

Do people always test to the same score?
If not, why not?
How many questions would you need to ask to know how smart someone is?
Do people with the same IQ get the same questions right?

I await your epiphany.



---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: MichaelJ on Oct. 16 2009,22:46

I saw Vox's 'Irrational Atheist' book in our library. It surprised me that this drivel would find it's way into a small Australian regional library.
It was right next to "The God Delusion"
Posted by: Richardthughes on Oct. 18 2009,10:21

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/10/practice-makes-perfect.html >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I'm not a fan of Fox News, but the thing that is so ridiculous about this is that Fox is more balanced - and has been objectively confirmed to be more balanced - than the other cable news networks and the mainstream media in general. Even liberals who doubted this couldn't credibly do so any longer once CNN took it upon itself to fact-check an SNL skit for the crime of being insufficiently reverential.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: Richardthughes on Oct. 27 2009,08:50

Woo Woo just in time for Halloween:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/10/mailvox-materialists-dilemma.html >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I've seen too many "impossible" things come to pass to be foolish enough to rely purely on logic when dealing with what is or is not possible. That's precisely the same mistake that the materialists are making. We have real living clones these days, for crying out loud. They're even talking about breaking the speed of light, and you want to strike a pose about what is and is not possible based on logic? I think that's crazy.

I find most "classic Christian arguments" to be irrelevant and counterproductive because they rely upon supporting their own assumptions rather than dealing effectively with the assumptions of the other side. Which, of course, is why I am considering the matter of the material from the perspective of a division between natural and supernatural in the first place.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: J-Dog on Oct. 27 2009,08:54

Quote (Richardthughes @ Oct. 18 2009,10:21)
< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/10/practice-makes-perfect.html >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I'm not a fan of Fox News, but the thing that is so ridiculous about this is that Fox is more balanced - and has been objectively confirmed to be more balanced - than the other cable news networks and the mainstream media in general. Even liberals who doubted this couldn't credibly do so any longer once CNN took it upon itself to fact-check an SNL skit for the crime of being insufficiently reverential.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Rich - If you want to make Vox give it all up, and eat some crow, send him this link:

< Why Fox News Isn't News >
Posted by: Richardthughes on Oct. 30 2009,15:47

Why Shulz (Peanuts Cartoon) > Popper (Problem of Induction)

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009....ll.html >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Popper's work doesn't have much to do with humanity or even attempting to describe truth, he's as akin to a mathematician as to a philosopher. Because science is merely one of the minor aspects of human existence, a philosopher of science will obviously rank lower as a philosopher than a philosopher of humanity like Schulz, whose work concerned the more central problems of existence and human nature
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: sledgehammer on Oct. 31 2009,17:55

Wow.  I just listened to VD's radio interview < here >  It's the first time I've ever heard him speak.

 I actually felt embarrassment for the arrogant little prick.  He sounds like a frikken squeaky-voiced teenager.  His dialog was filled with errs, umms, likes, y'knows, and the other verbal tics of someone who can't think "on his feet".
The most embarrassing moment came when he was talking about his predictions for the upcoming Great Depression [tm]
   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
You can expect to see lots of umm, economic stuff, like, y'know, defaults and things.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Cracked me up.  He certainly didn't sound anything like a self-described "Internet Superintelligence" to me.  I wonder who his ghost writer is. Maybe spacebunny?
Posted by: Texas Teach on Oct. 31 2009,22:48

Quote (sledgehammer @ Oct. 31 2009,17:55)
Wow.  I just listened to VD's radio interview < here >  It's the first time I've ever heard him speak.

 I actually felt embarrassment for the arrogant little prick.  He sounds like a frikken squeaky-voiced teenager.  His dialog was filled with errs, umms, likes, y'knows, and the other verbal tics of someone who can't think "on his feet".
The most embarrassing moment came when he was talking about his predictions for the upcoming Great Depression [tm]
   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
You can expect to see lots of umm, economic stuff, like, y'know, defaults and things.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Cracked me up.  He certainly didn't sound anything like a self-described "Internet Superintelligence" to me.  I wonder who his ghost writer is. Maybe spacebunny?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


DaveTard?
Posted by: Richardthughes on Nov. 02 2009,10:44

Quote (sledgehammer @ Oct. 31 2009,17:55)
Wow.  I just listened to VD's radio interview < here >  It's the first time I've ever heard him speak.

 I actually felt embarrassment for the arrogant little prick.  He sounds like a frikken squeaky-voiced teenager.  His dialog was filled with errs, umms, likes, y'knows, and the other verbal tics of someone who can't think "on his feet".
The most embarrassing moment came when he was talking about his predictions for the upcoming Great Depression [tm]
   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
You can expect to see lots of umm, economic stuff, like, y'know, defaults and things.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Cracked me up.  He certainly didn't sound anything like a self-described "Internet Superintelligence" to me.  I wonder who his ghost writer is. Maybe spacebunny?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


This was linked to, but the post got deleted. A few folks are making fun of Vox's squeaky, poorly constructed thoughts. That's a shame. He speaks very highly of them.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Nov. 11 2009,14:05

NOT.A. P A R O D Y

This is what Vox has been working on:

< http://warmouse.com/ >

Needs more buttons.
Posted by: J-Dog on Nov. 11 2009,14:52

Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 11 2009,14:05)
NOT.A. P A R O D Y

This is what Vox has been working on:

< http://warmouse.com/ >

Needs more buttons.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


WTF???!!!

After Vox added a button for whining, one for screeching, and one for The Usual Stupid, what's he need all those other buttons for?
Posted by: Reciprocating Bill on Nov. 12 2009,19:37

Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 11 2009,15:05)
NOT.A. P A R O D Y

This is what Vox has been working on:

< http://warmouse.com/ >

Needs more buttons.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Dudes! That's a vibrator.
Posted by: Gunthernacus on Nov. 13 2009,06:34

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Nov. 12 2009,20:37)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 11 2009,15:05)
NOT.A. P A R O D Y

This is what Vox has been working on:

< http://warmouse.com/ >

Needs more buttons.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Dudes! That's a vibrator.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You mean it's not a mouse, but a gerbil?
Posted by: Badger3k on Nov. 13 2009,10:36

Quote (J-Dog @ Nov. 11 2009,14:52)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 11 2009,14:05)
NOT.A. P A R O D Y

This is what Vox has been working on:

< http://warmouse.com/ >

Needs more buttons.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


WTF???!!!

After Vox added a button for whining, one for screeching, and one for The Usual Stupid, what's he need all those other buttons for?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Who cares.  This is a mouse for a man with penis issues.  If you're a teeny weenie guy, the more buttons the merrier.  The fact that they don't do anything doesn't matter.
Posted by: Badger3k on Nov. 13 2009,22:35

Quote (Badger3k @ Nov. 13 2009,10:36)
Quote (J-Dog @ Nov. 11 2009,14:52)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 11 2009,14:05)
NOT.A. P A R O D Y

This is what Vox has been working on:

< http://warmouse.com/ >

Needs more buttons.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


WTF???!!!

After Vox added a button for whining, one for screeching, and one for The Usual Stupid, what's he need all those other buttons for?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Who cares.  This is a mouse for a man with penis issues.  If you're a teeny weenie guy, the more buttons the merrier.  The fact that they don't do anything doesn't matter.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


After much thinking about it - this is also the mouse for a man who does his wanking to the internet.  Just program a button, for, say "sweater" or "frilly shirt", and who knows how many hours of fun you could have.  Never have to take your hand off your mouse.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Nov. 18 2009,13:51

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/11/al-gore-commits-igon-error.html >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Oh, BTW:

"So, it should come as no surprise that the leading AGW/CC salesman should demonstrate that he has very little grasp of temperature as his numbers are off by an order of magnitude:"

The quote:

"several million degrees" 10^6 vs 10^3

Math. Learn it.

That's THREE orders of magnitude. Thus me must conclude; 'Needless to say, this suffices to show that no intelligent individual should pay any attention whatsoever to Vox's statements about math, past, present, or future. Everyone makes mistakes, but in this particular case, as with Gladwell's infamous Igon Value, the nature of the error indicates the degree of the ignorance.'

Paging glass house repairman for the day residence.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: RDK on Nov. 18 2009,15:39

Sweet mother of Christ.  Vox's blog must be one of the worst seething cesspools of tard on the face of the Earth.  I've literally never seen so much tard.  These guys give UD and EFT a run for their money.  Every time I find an impossibly stupid quote in that thread, I mentally mark the place where the post is so I can go back and quote it, but I end up finding an even dumber one a few posts down.  This process is repeated almost ad-nauseam.

Here's a particularly juicy one that does a good job of representing the average Vox Day underling blog post:

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
SteveKay, pedantry will not get you very far in this. The phrase "an order of magnitude" is used enough colloquially to convey one or several orders of magnitude. Your literal reading of the phrase is just being snippy. The point still stands that AG was utterly and completely wrong in his "millions of degrees".
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Bible much?

These people are so morally selective it's not even funny.  Actually, it is funny; it's outrageously funny.  My favorite part is the constant brown-nosing going on, as if Vox were some sort of demi-god.  Their heads are so far up Vox's ass they might as well be wearing him as a hat.
Posted by: midwifetoad on Nov. 18 2009,15:49

The Bible may say Gore was off by three orders of magnitide, but I know for a fact it's 3.141592... orders of magnitude. :angry:
Posted by: dnmlthr on Nov. 18 2009,16:11



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Featuring Vox Day, Internet Superintelligence, AWCA
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


No hubris at all, no siree.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Nov. 18 2009,16:41

Will a mathematician please go and poke them with the clue stick?
Posted by: Richardthughes on Nov. 19 2009,15:51

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/11/overselling-swine-flue.html >

A comment:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Verlch    11/19/09 3:25 PM
I heard a rumor that there is RFID technology, or nano technology in the swine flu vaccine. If their goal is world domination, what better way than to implant a chip to track man's every movement. We know a lot of things will be forced on us. The nano technology will be easily picked up by the readers I'm sure, in stores, and wherever else they are installed to track our every movement.

World Government might want to know where those pesky Christians, atheists and God fearing Jews are, so they can round them up and reeducate them to serve the godless system. Well there will be one mini god, the anti christ who will demand worship. (Anybody seen Obowma lately? Is he worshiping these leaders?)

Recently a movie on You Tube talked about how verichip now admits they want to tie in the implant to the banking system. They even bought a company like "life (suckers) lock" to safe guard against fraud. Well we figured as much, that the buying and selling aspect of the chip was coming. Just not this fast.

Anyways wake up folks, keep your ears to the tracks and lets share information so that this day doesn't sneak up on us like a thief in the night.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



HMMM.
Posted by: khan on Nov. 19 2009,16:09

Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 19 2009,16:51)
< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/11/overselling-swine-flue.html >

A comment:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Verlch    11/19/09 3:25 PM
I heard a rumor that there is RFID technology, or nano technology in the swine flu vaccine. If their goal is world domination, what better way than to implant a chip to track man's every movement. We know a lot of things will be forced on us. The nano technology will be easily picked up by the readers I'm sure, in stores, and wherever else they are installed to track our every movement.

World Government might want to know where those pesky Christians, atheists and God fearing Jews are, so they can round them up and reeducate them to serve the godless system. Well there will be one mini god, the anti christ who will demand worship. (Anybody seen Obowma lately? Is he worshiping these leaders?)

Recently a movie on You Tube talked about how verichip now admits they want to tie in the implant to the banking system. They even bought a company like "life (suckers) lock" to safe guard against fraud. Well we figured as much, that the buying and selling aspect of the chip was coming. Just not this fast.

Anyways wake up folks, keep your ears to the tracks and lets share information so that this day doesn't sneak up on us like a thief in the night.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



HMMM.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


That is some serious fucking stupid shit. Has this stupid one ever seen the size of a tracking chip? And how will this chip be administered via the inhaled version?
Posted by: Texas Teach on Nov. 19 2009,17:41

Quote (khan @ Nov. 19 2009,16:09)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 19 2009,16:51)
< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/11/overselling-swine-flue.html >

A comment:

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Verlch    11/19/09 3:25 PM
I heard a rumor that there is RFID technology, or nano technology in the swine flu vaccine. If their goal is world domination, what better way than to implant a chip to track man's every movement. We know a lot of things will be forced on us. The nano technology will be easily picked up by the readers I'm sure, in stores, and wherever else they are installed to track our every movement.

World Government might want to know where those pesky Christians, atheists and God fearing Jews are, so they can round them up and reeducate them to serve the godless system. Well there will be one mini god, the anti christ who will demand worship. (Anybody seen Obowma lately? Is he worshiping these leaders?)

Recently a movie on You Tube talked about how verichip now admits they want to tie in the implant to the banking system. They even bought a company like "life (suckers) lock" to safe guard against fraud. Well we figured as much, that the buying and selling aspect of the chip was coming. Just not this fast.

Anyways wake up folks, keep your ears to the tracks and lets share information so that this day doesn't sneak up on us like a thief in the night.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



HMMM.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


That is some serious fucking stupid shit. Has this stupid one ever seen the size of a tracking chip? And how will this chip be administered via the inhaled version?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Painfully?
Posted by: sledgehammer on Nov. 19 2009,20:57

Quote (Texas Teach @ Nov. 19 2009,15:41)
Quote (khan @ Nov. 19 2009,16:09)
 
Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 19 2009,16:51)
< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/11/overselling-swine-flue.html >

A comment:

   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Verlch    11/19/09 3:25 PM
I heard a rumor that there is RFID technology, or nano technology in the swine flu vaccine. If their goal is world domination, what better way than to implant a chip to track man's every movement. We know a lot of things will be forced on us. The nano technology will be easily picked up by the readers I'm sure, in stores, and wherever else they are installed to track our every movement.

World Government might want to know where those pesky Christians, atheists and God fearing Jews are, so they can round them up and reeducate them to serve the godless system. Well there will be one mini god, the anti christ who will demand worship. (Anybody seen Obowma lately? Is he worshiping these leaders?)

Recently a movie on You Tube talked about how verichip now admits they want to tie in the implant to the banking system. They even bought a company like "life (suckers) lock" to safe guard against fraud. Well we figured as much, that the buying and selling aspect of the chip was coming. Just not this fast.

Anyways wake up folks, keep your ears to the tracks and lets share information so that this day doesn't sneak up on us like a thief in the night.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



HMMM.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


That is some serious fucking stupid shit. Has this stupid one ever seen the size of a tracking chip? And how will this chip be administered via the inhaled version?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Painfully?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You just shove it down the swine's flue.

(overselling-swine-flue.html)
Posted by: Richardthughes on Dec. 22 2009,12:47

Here's his latest business 'idea'



< http://www.engadget.com/2009....-pretty >

Sun (owners of open office) have told him not to use the logo any more...
Posted by: RDK on Dec. 22 2009,13:00

Quote (Richardthughes @ Dec. 22 2009,12:47)
Here's his latest business 'idea'



< http://www.engadget.com/2009....-pretty >

Sun (owners of open office) have told him not to use the logo any more...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


OMG, it's The Incredible Vox Controller!  The mouse for people with incredibly small penises.

Has he explained what all those fancy buttons do yet?  Or are they just for show?
Posted by: Richardthughes on Dec. 22 2009,13:08

< http://warmouse.com/ >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
The features of the WarMouse Meta include:

18 programmable mouse buttons with double-click functionality
High-resolution laser sensor with adjustable resolution from 100 to 5,600 DPI/CPI
Five assignable button modes: Key, Keypress, Macro, Mouse, and Mouse-Key Combo
Analog Xbox 360-style joystick with five analog and digital modes
Clickable scroll wheel
512k of flash memory
63 on-mouse application modes with hardware, software, and autoswitching capability
1024-character macro support
Meta Modeware for creating, managing, and customizing game and application modes
Import and export of custom modes in XML format
Optional audio notification of mode switching with customizable wave files
Taskbar display of active application mode
PDF export of application mode button assignments
Graphical pop-up map of application mode button assignments
25 default modes for popular games and applications, including Mozilla Firefox and Thunderbird, Microsoft Word, Excel, and Powerpoint, OpenOffice.org Writer, Calc, and Impress, 3D Studio Max, Autodesk AutoCAD, Adobe Photoshop, the Gnu Image Manipulation Program, World of Warcraft, Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2, and the Multiple Arcade Machine Emulator

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: Badger3k on Dec. 22 2009,13:16

Quote (Richardthughes @ Dec. 22 2009,13:08)
< http://warmouse.com/ >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
The features of the WarMouse Meta include:

18 programmable mouse buttons with double-click functionality
High-resolution laser sensor with adjustable resolution from 100 to 5,600 DPI/CPI
Five assignable button modes: Key, Keypress, Macro, Mouse, and Mouse-Key Combo
Analog Xbox 360-style joystick with five analog and digital modes
Clickable scroll wheel
512k of flash memory
63 on-mouse application modes with hardware, software, and autoswitching capability
1024-character macro support
Meta Modeware for creating, managing, and customizing game and application modes
Import and export of custom modes in XML format
Optional audio notification of mode switching with customizable wave files
Taskbar display of active application mode
PDF export of application mode button assignments
Graphical pop-up map of application mode button assignments
25 default modes for popular games and applications, including Mozilla Firefox and Thunderbird, Microsoft Word, Excel, and Powerpoint, OpenOffice.org Writer, Calc, and Impress, 3D Studio Max, Autodesk AutoCAD, Adobe Photoshop, the Gnu Image Manipulation Program, World of Warcraft, Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2, and the Multiple Arcade Machine Emulator

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Obviously, to get the full use of this mouse, you have to be a member of Mensa.

I do agree with the last comment I read - "Needs more cowbell."
Posted by: Chayanov on Dec. 22 2009,15:57

Quote (Richardthughes @ Dec. 22 2009,13:08)
< http://warmouse.com/ >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
The features of the WarMouse Meta include:

18 programmable mouse buttons with double-click functionality
High-resolution laser sensor with adjustable resolution from 100 to 5,600 DPI/CPI
Five assignable button modes: Key, Keypress, Macro, Mouse, and Mouse-Key Combo
Analog Xbox 360-style joystick with five analog and digital modes
Clickable scroll wheel
512k of flash memory
63 on-mouse application modes with hardware, software, and autoswitching capability
1024-character macro support
Meta Modeware for creating, managing, and customizing game and application modes
Import and export of custom modes in XML format
Optional audio notification of mode switching with customizable wave files
Taskbar display of active application mode
PDF export of application mode button assignments
Graphical pop-up map of application mode button assignments
25 default modes for popular games and applications, including Mozilla Firefox and Thunderbird, Microsoft Word, Excel, and Powerpoint, OpenOffice.org Writer, Calc, and Impress, 3D Studio Max, Autodesk AutoCAD, Adobe Photoshop, the Gnu Image Manipulation Program, World of Warcraft, Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2, and the Multiple Arcade Machine Emulator

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Even the "good" reviews there are rather back-handed.

Godawful color scheme. It looks like it was designed about 15 years ago and languished on a shelf somewhere. There's a joystick right under your thumb -- unless you use a mouse left-handed, then the joystick is right under your pinky finger. I can't even imagine how awkward that monstrosity would be to use.
Posted by: Lou FCD on Dec. 22 2009,17:29

Whenever this thread pops back up to the top of the front page, I invariably think to myself, "Holy shit, is that idiot still remembering to breathe?"
Posted by: fnxtr on Dec. 22 2009,20:00

Quote (RDK @ Dec. 22 2009,13:00)
 
Quote (Richardthughes @ Dec. 22 2009,12:47)
Here's his latest business 'idea'



< http://www.engadget.com/2009....-pretty >

Sun (owners of open office) have told him not to use the logo any more...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


OMG, it's The Incredible Vox Controller!  The mouse for people with incredibly small penises.

Has he explained what all those fancy buttons do yet?  Or are they just for show?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Can't remember who it is now, but there's a guitar demo on youtube where the guy's pointing at all his controls and says stuff like "This one controls the temperature of the sun / how many people die in a day..."
Posted by: fnxtr on Dec. 22 2009,20:09

John Petrucci.

< http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKMYeXkYcgs >
Posted by: Richardthughes on Feb. 05 2010,11:05

Vox is now bringing his unique tard to sociology:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/01/roissy-and-limits-of-game.html >

His new male hierarchy is in all his recent posts, he must be very proud.
Posted by: RDK on Feb. 05 2010,11:16

That article makes me wonder whether or not our boy Vox has ever seen a female IRL.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Feb. 05 2010,11:18

Quote (RDK @ Feb. 05 2010,11:16)
That article makes me wonder whether or not our boy Vox has ever seen a female IRL.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


He's married to the dumbest of a litter of 12.

Vox explained in 2:24

< http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKmUsVeKp1o >
Posted by: khan on Feb. 05 2010,12:28

Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 05 2010,12:05)
Vox is now bringing his unique tard to sociology:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/01/roissy-and-limits-of-game.html >

His new male hierarchy is in all his recent posts, he must be very proud.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


What a loathsome POS.
Posted by: Badger3k on Feb. 05 2010,18:51

Quote (khan @ Feb. 05 2010,12:28)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 05 2010,12:05)
Vox is now bringing his unique tard to sociology:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/01/roissy-and-limits-of-game.html >

His new male hierarchy is in all his recent posts, he must be very proud.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


What a loathsome POS.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I wonder which one old Teddy thinks he is....

And I can't wait to see him do one for women.  That'll be...interesting.
Posted by: sledgehammer on Feb. 05 2010,20:30

Quote (Badger3k @ Feb. 05 2010,16:51)
Quote (khan @ Feb. 05 2010,12:28)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 05 2010,12:05)
Vox is now bringing his unique tard to sociology:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/01/roissy-and-limits-of-game.html >

His new male hierarchy is in all his recent posts, he must be very proud.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


What a loathsome POS.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I wonder which one old Teddy thinks he is....

And I can't wait to see him do one for women.  That'll be...interesting.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Alpha Fail, of course.
Posted by: fnxtr on Feb. 06 2010,19:18

Quote (sledgehammer @ Feb. 05 2010,18:30)
Quote (Badger3k @ Feb. 05 2010,16:51)
 
Quote (khan @ Feb. 05 2010,12:28)
 
Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 05 2010,12:05)
Vox is now bringing his unique tard to sociology:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/01/roissy-and-limits-of-game.html >

His new male hierarchy is in all his recent posts, he must be very proud.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


What a loathsome POS.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I wonder which one old Teddy thinks he is....

And I can't wait to see him do one for women.  That'll be...interesting.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Alpha Fail, of course.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The only difference between this guy and Dice is that Dice gets the joke.  

Not funny, either way.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Feb. 10 2010,10:43

John sock Locke is having fun:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/02/new-atheism-is-revised.html >
Posted by: Badger3k on Feb. 10 2010,13:25

Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 10 2010,10:43)
John sock Locke is having fun:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/02/new-atheism-is-revised.html >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Holeeeee Feces, what a load of Tard.  If I could get to Demotivational Posters from work, I'd post the Three Stooges Triple Facepalm.  

This quote shows how ignorant Vox is of actual science (I think this is the fallacy of equivocation, correct me if I'm wrong) - this is VD (Teddy) responding to Locke:

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
   John Locke: 2/10/10 10:21 AM:
   The plural of anecdote is not data.

You're completely incorrect. Data is = "individual facts, statistics, or items of information". Two or more anecdotes are obviously data. You should know better than to try to use pseudo-intellectual sayings here.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


(from a comment 2/10 at 10:53, I can't get a direct link)

No wonder he's ...ummm...well, what's good for the goose and all...retarded.  It does make me wonder whether Teddy qualifies under Aspergers or is his just a more general sociopathy?
Posted by: Advocatus Diaboli on Feb. 10 2010,13:34

Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 10 2010,10:43)
John sock Locke is having fun:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/02/new-atheism-is-revised.html >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


VD:


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Third, if you're not a Christian, don't quote Scripture. If one doesn't believe in it, one has no right to call upon it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Hehe. Those divine copyrights sure are tricky.
Posted by: Badger3k on Feb. 10 2010,19:43

Quote (Advocatus Diaboli @ Feb. 10 2010,13:34)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 10 2010,10:43)
John sock Locke is having fun:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/02/new-atheism-is-revised.html >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


VD:
 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Third, if you're not a Christian, don't quote Scripture. If one doesn't believe in it, one has no right to call upon it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Hehe. Those divine copyrights sure are tricky.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Hey, does that apply to the, ahem, pious forgeries - the fake epistles of Paul, for instance?  Surely that was copyright infringement?

I wonder (somewhat, I expect I know the answer) if Vox thinks it is ok to quote scripture to a non-Christian and expect them to take it seriously?
Posted by: Badger3k on Feb. 10 2010,22:46



How's this?
Posted by: Advocatus Diaboli on Feb. 17 2010,07:58

Amy Bishop's carnage in the University of Alabama?
 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------

No worries, it's just evolution in action:

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


That's right!
 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------

Since we've been informed so many times that scientists are trained to be rational and objective, and that science is what scientists do, it is clear that Prof. Bishop's actions should be considered an experiment in natural selection rather than a crime. For as we know from the regrettable slanders stemming from Hackergate, no scientist would ever do something terrible like invent data, much less shoot anyone, in the tawdry, unscientific pursuit of filthy lucre.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/02/science-self-corrects.html >

Vox Day is a gift that keeps on giving. And by gift I mean "rectum."
Posted by: Albatrossity2 on Feb. 17 2010,08:13

Quote (Advocatus Diaboli @ Feb. 17 2010,07:58)
Vox Day is a gift that keeps on giving. And by gift I mean "rectum."
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Vox seems to be another member of the sewer goblin baramin that also includes Slime Cordova and Granny Tard...
Posted by: Louis on Feb. 17 2010,09:08

In nearly 20 years of observing and interacting with people like Sal and Vox I have to say this amazed me. It's a new low as far as I can see.

Louis
Posted by: Richardthughes on Feb. 24 2010,16:11

More evo-tard:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/02/idol-crumbles.html >
Posted by: Steverino on Feb. 24 2010,21:06



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Quite simply, an object's function is what it was intended to do by the one who designed it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Again, VoxTard makes a leap of faith. Similar to the one he need to make when believing in the mythical sky fairy

The assume that something is designed and then use that assumption as support for you explanation is a logical fallacy.

Where is the proof that something is designed?  Even Demski, try as he might, can't come up with the science or math for that one.
Posted by: Beelzebub667 on Feb. 27 2010,04:56

Everything you need to know about Vox Day is explained by the Dunning-Kruger effect, except that normally people eventually realize the real status of their ability and knowledge.  There's a word for people who don't.  Idiot, I think.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Feb. 27 2010,15:55

< http://scienceblogs.com/dispatc....omments >


Lulzfest.
Posted by: J-Dog on Mar. 01 2010,12:45

Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 27 2010,15:55)
< http://scienceblogs.com/dispatc....omments >


Lulzfest.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Cool, & nice plug BTW...

I still say that the "18 button mouse" = overcompensation for a miniscule penis and and even smaller brain.
Posted by: Dr.GH on Mar. 01 2010,17:33

Quote (J-Dog @ Mar. 01 2010,10:45)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 27 2010,15:55)
< http://scienceblogs.com/dispatc....omments >


Lulzfest.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Cool, & nice plug BTW...

I still say that the "18 button mouse" = overcompensation for a miniscule penis and and even smaller brain.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


My digitizer tablet has a 16 button mouse. So, 18 buttons are clearly assage.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Mar. 04 2010,16:12

Enjoy the whole thing:

< http://www.bandchitickets.com/SANFL/mrbad.htm >
Posted by: J-Dog on Mar. 04 2010,17:00

Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 04 2010,16:12)
Enjoy the whole thing:

< http://www.bandchitickets.com/SANFL/mrbad.htm >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Beautiful Link - It explains a lot...

I'm just not sure if this will wind up as People's Exhibit #1 in the People vs Vox Day Trial, or evidence for the Insanity Plea Defense in the same trial.

We Report - You Deride!
Posted by: Reciprocating Bill on Mar. 04 2010,17:30

Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 04 2010,17:12)
Enjoy the whole thing:

< http://www.bandchitickets.com/SANFL/mrbad.htm >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Wotta dickhead.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Mar. 05 2010,01:15

FtK sighting:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/03/turnabout-is-fair-play.html >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
FtK    3/4/10 4:43 PM
Here's a question for Vox...

Do you *ever* tire of blathering on about your intellect? I have a brother who has a *very* high IQ, and he has accomplished quite a bit, but I've never ~once~ heard him boast or brag about it. Neither have I heard him put others down who many not be as gifted as he is.

Humility...it's an art.

Just sayin'.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Suprise gift: She's talking sense!
Posted by: Skullboy on Mar. 05 2010,02:36



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Vox Day: By the time I was five, I was fairly convinced that most people were idiots. I probably lost the conventional faith in credentials when my kindergarten teacher asked me about my triceratops-shaped name tag.  The problem was that it was actually in the shape of an allosaurus. How could anyone with even half a brain possibly confuse the two?  
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Is he making fun of himself here? Is this a Poe? I'm lost. I mean, all this talk about IQ and how he's so remarkable that he can barely relate to people of normal intelligence...is this for real or is he just some elaborate con? It just seems so high school. Isn't this guy in his forties?
Posted by: Beelzebub667 on Mar. 05 2010,04:29

Quote (Skullboy @ Mar. 05 2010,02:36)
Is he making fun of himself here? Is this a Poe? I'm lost. I mean, all this talk about IQ and how he's so remarkable that he can barely relate to people of normal intelligence...is this for real or is he just some elaborate con? It just seems so high school. Isn't this guy in his forties?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Yes, he is in his forties, and no, he's not joking; he's dead serious.  Welcome to the world of Vox Day.
Posted by: carlsonjok on Mar. 05 2010,07:01

Quote (Beelzebub667 @ Mar. 05 2010,04:29)
Quote (Skullboy @ Mar. 05 2010,02:36)
Is he making fun of himself here? Is this a Poe? I'm lost. I mean, all this talk about IQ and how he's so remarkable that he can barely relate to people of normal intelligence...is this for real or is he just some elaborate con? It just seems so high school. Isn't this guy in his forties?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Yes, he is in his forties, and no, he's not joking; he's dead serious.  Welcome to the world of Vox Day.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I'd love to get him in the same room as John Kwok.

And then lock the door from the outside as I effected my escape.
Posted by: J-Dog on Mar. 05 2010,07:56

Quote (Beelzebub667 @ Mar. 05 2010,04:29)
Quote (Skullboy @ Mar. 05 2010,02:36)
Is he making fun of himself here? Is this a Poe? I'm lost. I mean, all this talk about IQ and how he's so remarkable that he can barely relate to people of normal intelligence...is this for real or is he just some elaborate con? It just seems so high school. Isn't this guy in his forties?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Yes, he is in his forties, and no, he's not joking; he's dead serious.  Welcome to the world of Vox Day.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Anybody else notice the similarities with DaveTard?  
Twin sons of different mothers?  One's a dick, and the other's an autodick... although unlike Vox,  DaveTard did occassionally make some sort of sense.
Posted by: fnxtr on Mar. 05 2010,09:31

Quote (Skullboy @ Mar. 05 2010,00:36)
Is he making fun of himself here? Is this a Poe? I'm lost. I mean, all this talk about IQ and how he's so remarkable that he can barely relate to people of normal intelligence...is this for real or is he just some elaborate con? It just seems so high school. Isn't this guy in his forties?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


< http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-kHB2fWUS8 >
Posted by: Albatrossity2 on Mar. 05 2010,09:31

Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 05 2010,01:15)
FtK sighting:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/03/turnabout-is-fair-play.html >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
FtK    3/4/10 4:43 PM
Here's a question for Vox...

Do you *ever* tire of blathering on about your intellect? I have a brother who has a *very* high IQ, and he has accomplished quite a bit, but I've never ~once~ heard him boast or brag about it. Neither have I heard him put others down who many not be as gifted as he is.

Humility...it's an art.

Just sayin'.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Suprise gift: She's talking sense!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Well, bless her heart!
Posted by: Badger3k on Mar. 05 2010,09:37

Quote (Skullboy @ Mar. 05 2010,02:36)


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Vox Day: By the time I was five, I was fairly convinced that most people were idiots. I probably lost the conventional faith in credentials when my kindergarten teacher asked me about my triceratops-shaped name tag.  The problem was that it was actually in the shape of an allosaurus. How could anyone with even half a brain possibly confuse the two?  
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Is he making fun of himself here? Is this a Poe? I'm lost. I mean, all this talk about IQ and how he's so remarkable that he can barely relate to people of normal intelligence...is this for real or is he just some elaborate con? It just seems so high school. Isn't this guy in his forties?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Considering he's confusing "knowledge" with "intelligence" - and apparently still does, from his example (he hasn't learned anything since then?) - I'd say that it wasn't even a high school level.  Middle School tops, maybe, and I'd say that is pushing it.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Mar. 09 2010,10:59

Progressive:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/03/womans-place.html >
Posted by: Robin on Mar. 09 2010,12:40

I. Am. Just. Dumb. Founded!

How can anyone who thinks the way this Vox guy does interact in actual society? How is it possible for someone like that to actually survive? How is it he is not constantly moving from community to community as he's run out of them by everyone he encounters?

I am just in...shock.

That is a whole new level of Tard I could never have fathomed...
Posted by: Richardthughes on Mar. 09 2010,15:54

Some crackerjack commentary:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
God naturally intended the men e.i. husbands to earn a living for their families. God is still all about the family being one man and one women, in marriage. Parenthood, specificially motherhood is a high noble honor that is spat upon in this country. In the workplace I see good men underpaid and discounted. Even the pink hand of gayness is exulted. But I will love God and love His version of living b/c its the only one worth living.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Thankyou, lindapolver999.

IF ANY WOMANDS IS READING THIS, WHY ARE THEY NOT IN THE KITCHEN AND WHY CAN THEY READ? WHAT A WASITE.

ALSO, LOUIS' PINK HAND GETS MENTIONED!
Posted by: Beelzebub667 on Mar. 10 2010,02:36

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010....ts.html >

In which Vox blames feminism for something that feminism is the first to condemn.  Superintellicalifragilisticexpialitard
Posted by: Robin on Mar. 10 2010,08:30

Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 09 2010,15:54)

---------------------QUOTE-------------------




---------------------QUOTE-------------------
God naturally intended the men e.i. husbands...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



e.i.?
Posted by: khan on Mar. 10 2010,09:36

Quote (Robin @ Mar. 10 2010,09:30)
[quote=Richardthughes,Mar. 09 2010,15:54][/quote]


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
God naturally intended the men e.i. husbands...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



e.i.?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Who are you to question a genius?
Posted by: carlsonjok on Mar. 10 2010,09:55

Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 09 2010,10:59)
Progressive:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/03/womans-place.html >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Hey has even put his thoughts on tape.  < See here. >
Posted by: Badger3k on Mar. 10 2010,10:40

Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 09 2010,15:54)
Some crackerjack commentary:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
God naturally intended the men e.i. husbands to earn a living for their families. God is still all about the family being one man and one women, in marriage. Parenthood, specificially motherhood is a high noble honor that is spat upon in this country. In the workplace I see good men underpaid and discounted. Even the pink hand of gayness is exulted. But I will love God and love His version of living b/c its the only one worth living.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Thankyou, lindapolver999.

IF ANY WOMANDS IS READING THIS, WHY ARE THEY NOT IN THE KITCHEN AND WHY CAN THEY READ? WHAT A WASITE.

ALSO, LOUIS' PINK HAND GETS MENTIONED!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I assume that "londapolver" is the commenter, and it sure sounds like that is a woman's name.  How dare she learn how to read!  And speaking up before men...verboten according to some passages in the bible.  Of course, maybe some man wrote it for her, which would excuse her complete misunderstanding of marriage in the bible, which was one man, many women - even if some were concubines or slaves.
Posted by: Louis on Mar. 10 2010,11:13

Quote (khan @ Mar. 10 2010,14:36)
Quote (Robin @ Mar. 10 2010,09:30)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 09 2010,15:54)

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
God naturally intended the men e.i. husbands...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



e.i.?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Who are you to question a genius?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Well, speaking purely for myself: a genius with a higher IQ than Vox's.*

Natch.

Louis

*Good gravy, even though this may or may not be true (what is Vox's IQ anyway? I struggle to believe it is higher than "houseplant" he must have snuck into Mensa via the tradesman's entrance), I hope everyone realises I am frigging joking!
Posted by: keiths on Mar. 10 2010,12:10

Quote (Louis @ Mar. 10 2010,09:13)
Well, speaking purely for myself: a genius with a higher IQ than Vox's.*

*Good gravy, even though this may or may not be true (what is Vox's IQ anyway? I struggle to believe it is higher than "houseplant"...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Your IQ may or may not be higher than that of a houseplant?  Whence the sudden modesty, Louis?
Posted by: Louis on Mar. 10 2010,14:07

Quote (keiths @ Mar. 10 2010,17:10)
Quote (Louis @ Mar. 10 2010,09:13)
Well, speaking purely for myself: a genius with a higher IQ than Vox's.*

*Good gravy, even though this may or may not be true (what is Vox's IQ anyway? I struggle to believe it is higher than "houseplant"...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Your IQ may or may not be higher than that of a houseplant?  Whence the sudden modesty, Louis?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Well, not a big houseplant. I don't want to get above my station.

Louis
Posted by: nmgirl on Mar. 10 2010,15:27

Quote (Beelzebub667 @ Mar. 10 2010,02:36)
< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010....ts.html >

In which Vox blames feminism for something that feminism is the first to condemn.  Superintellicalifragilisticexpialitard
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


omg, i have never been to this guy's blog and now I may never recover. "Internet Superintelligence" at the top of the page (WTF?).  

And his babbling against women?  I have heard that kind of crap since I left the heart of the bible belt in the 70s.  Obviously his mother did not show him enough girl power.l
Posted by: Richardthughes on Mar. 11 2010,14:19

< http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=6267#more-6267 >
Posted by: MichaelJ on Mar. 11 2010,14:40

Quote (Badger3k @ Mar. 11 2010,01:40)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 09 2010,15:54)
Some crackerjack commentary:

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
God naturally intended the men e.i. husbands to earn a living for their families. God is still all about the family being one man and one women, in marriage. Parenthood, specificially motherhood is a high noble honor that is spat upon in this country. In the workplace I see good men underpaid and discounted. Even the pink hand of gayness is exulted. But I will love God and love His version of living b/c its the only one worth living.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Thankyou, lindapolver999.

IF ANY WOMANDS IS READING THIS, WHY ARE THEY NOT IN THE KITCHEN AND WHY CAN THEY READ? WHAT A WASITE.

ALSO, LOUIS' PINK HAND GETS MENTIONED!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I assume that "londapolver" is the commenter, and it sure sounds like that is a woman's name.  How dare she learn how to read!  And speaking up before men...verboten according to some passages in the bible.  Of course, maybe some man wrote it for her, which would excuse her complete misunderstanding of marriage in the bible, which was one man, many women - even if some were concubines or slaves.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


No, women CAN comment after getting permission from their husbands. The big problem is that her internet handle should be her husbands name. So Leanne's handle would be mrsMichaelJ or wifeofMichaelJ and of course each post will need my prior approval.

Hang on I'll just shoot upstairs to tell my wife these rules, I'm sure she will be impressed
Posted by: MichaelJ on Mar. 11 2010,14:44

I would just like to retract my last comment. I'm going to take a little break from posting now as it is hard to type with two broken thumbs

husbandofLeanneJ
Posted by: Dr.GH on Mar. 11 2010,17:52

Quote (MichaelJ @ Mar. 11 2010,12:44)
I would just like to retract my last comment. I'm going to take a little break from posting now as it is hard to type with two broken thumbs

husbandofLeanneJ
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It is even harder to get sex when sleeping alone in the basement (unless Joe the ID Guy digs a tunnel from his mom's house).
Posted by: Richardthughes on Mar. 19 2010,13:38

< http://scienceblogs.com/dispatc....hp#more >

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/03/mailvox-book-for-suckers.html >

Enjoy!
Posted by: Badger3k on Mar. 19 2010,20:16

Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 19 2010,13:38)
< http://scienceblogs.com/dispatc....hp#more >

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/03/mailvox-book-for-suckers.html >

Enjoy!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Wow - I love it when Teddy comes on and tries to puff up his chest and brag about how majestic he is.  Is he cruising?  Anyone who goes by the initials "VD" should know better than to do that.  :D
Posted by: Albatrossity2 on May 12 2010,11:13

Vox preaches to the choir at < WhirledNutsDully. >

Shorter Vox - Mexicans are trying to take over the parts of the country that used to be Mexico and need to be expelled (along with expelling Arabs from Detroit and Somalis from Minneapolis). Otherwise white Americans will migrate back from Phoenix to Peoria.

Or sump'n like that. Read the whole thing; it's a marvelous insight into the Douchepocalypse world view.
Posted by: Louis on May 13 2010,06:38

I have said it before and I'll say it again: the man is a gigantic douchenozzle.

Yeah, ok, I just wanted to use the word douchenozzle.

I even read his presentation (snicker, giggle) about those evil New Atheists. I LOLed. Point, thoroughly missed. Bravo!

Louis
Posted by: Richardthughes on May 13 2010,11:21

Quote (Louis @ May 13 2010,06:38)
I have said it before and I'll say it again: the man is a gigantic douchenozzle.

Yeah, ok, I just wanted to use the word douchenozzle.

I even read his presentation (snicker, giggle) about those evil New Atheists. I LOLed. Point, thoroughly missed. Bravo!

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I actually started a rebutal - there's falsehoods and misrepresentations on most slides.

PM me if you want the current version.
Posted by: Badger3k on May 13 2010,20:33

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ May 12 2010,11:13)
Vox preaches to the choir at < WhirledNutsDully. >

Shorter Vox - Mexicans are trying to take over the parts of the country that used to be Mexico and need to be expelled (along with expelling Arabs from Detroit and Somalis from Minneapolis). Otherwise white Americans will migrate back from Phoenix to Peoria.

Or sump'n like that. Read the whole thing; it's a marvelous insight into the Douchepocalypse world view.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Jesus' General wrote up a nice reply (can't link from work), and he wanted to know what Mr Farrah would do when Vox deported him.  The Joseph Farrah/biker from the village people comparison was almost worth it by itself.
Posted by: fnxtr on May 14 2010,10:07

Quote (Louis @ May 13 2010,04:38)
I have said it before and I'll say it again: the man is a gigantic douchenozzle.

Yeah, ok, I just wanted to use the word douchenozzle.

I even read his presentation (snicker, giggle) about those evil New Atheists. I LOLed. Point, thoroughly missed. Bravo!

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


That's right up there with "fuck-knuckles", Louis.

Heh-heh. Douchenozzle. It's even fun to type. Heh-heh.
Posted by: Louis on May 14 2010,10:49

Quote (Richardthughes @ May 13 2010,16:21)
Quote (Louis @ May 13 2010,06:38)
I have said it before and I'll say it again: the man is a gigantic douchenozzle.

Yeah, ok, I just wanted to use the word douchenozzle.

I even read his presentation (snicker, giggle) about those evil New Atheists. I LOLed. Point, thoroughly missed. Bravo!

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I actually started a rebutal - there's falsehoods and misrepresentations on most slides.

PM me if you want the current version.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You, sir, shock me. Are you suggesting that in addition to stretching arguments to the point of strawman, deliberately missing the point, and generally oversimplifying things to the point of absurdity, VD has actually put falsehoods on those slides?

Where now may my moral compass point? Without the lodestone of Theodore my navigation in morality is adrift. My north, my south, my east, my west; all are confused. Without Theodore to guide me, gently and kindly like a master, my life has been cut free and flaps on the mast, wasted, useless. Woe, calamity and disaster must surely befall us now Theodore is not the wellspring of all things factual.

Louis
Posted by: Richardthughes on May 14 2010,11:10

Quote (fnxtr @ May 14 2010,10:07)
Quote (Louis @ May 13 2010,04:38)
I have said it before and I'll say it again: the man is a gigantic douchenozzle.

Yeah, ok, I just wanted to use the word douchenozzle.

I even read his presentation (snicker, giggle) about those evil New Atheists. I LOLed. Point, thoroughly missed. Bravo!

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


That's right up there with "fuck-knuckles", Louis.

Heh-heh. Douchenozzle. It's even fun to type. Heh-heh.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Mr DoucheNozzle:

< http://www.atom.com/funny_videos/super_special_dog_turkey/ >

Edited to give right episode.
Posted by: fnxtr on May 14 2010,11:27

Quote (Richardthughes @ May 14 2010,09:10)
Quote (fnxtr @ May 14 2010,10:07)
 
Quote (Louis @ May 13 2010,04:38)
I have said it before and I'll say it again: the man is a gigantic douchenozzle.

Yeah, ok, I just wanted to use the word douchenozzle.

I even read his presentation (snicker, giggle) about those evil New Atheists. I LOLed. Point, thoroughly missed. Bravo!

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


That's right up there with "fuck-knuckles", Louis.

Heh-heh. Douchenozzle. It's even fun to type. Heh-heh.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Mr DoucheNozzle:

< http://www.atom.com/funny_videos/super_special_dog_turkey/ >

Edited to give right episode.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Okay, that's just weird. Thank you.
Posted by: Steverino on May 14 2010,16:07

mmmmmm.....I think it was missing the fart noises.   Yeah!...that's the ticket!
Posted by: Texas Teach on May 14 2010,17:28

Quote (Louis @ May 14 2010,10:49)
Quote (Richardthughes @ May 13 2010,16:21)
Quote (Louis @ May 13 2010,06:38)
I have said it before and I'll say it again: the man is a gigantic douchenozzle.

Yeah, ok, I just wanted to use the word douchenozzle.

I even read his presentation (snicker, giggle) about those evil New Atheists. I LOLed. Point, thoroughly missed. Bravo!

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I actually started a rebutal - there's falsehoods and misrepresentations on most slides.

PM me if you want the current version.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You, sir, shock me. Are you suggesting that in addition to stretching arguments to the point of strawman, deliberately missing the point, and generally oversimplifying things to the point of absurdity, VD has actually put falsehoods on those slides?

Where now may my moral compass point? Without the lodestone of Theodore my navigation in morality is adrift. My north, my south, my east, my west; all are confused. Without Theodore to guide me, gently and kindly like a master, my life has been cut free and flaps on the mast, wasted, useless. Woe, calamity and disaster must surely befall us now Theodore is not the wellspring of all things factual.

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Try Theobald over Theodore.
Posted by: Richardthughes on June 07 2010,07:47

Google thinks this thread is a good choice:


(well, better than his first book)
Posted by: J-Dog on June 07 2010,08:10

Quote (Richardthughes @ June 07 2010,07:47)
Google thinks this thread is a good choice:


(well, better than his first book)
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


My Google turns up:

vox day Greatly Depressing*




*ok, I made it up, but that doesn't mean it's not true...
Posted by: Richardthughes on June 07 2010,08:11

I'm hoping we jump above "Vox Day Idiot" but he's working hard to reinforce that position.
Posted by: sledgehammer on June 07 2010,09:44

Quote (Richardthughes @ June 07 2010,05:47)
Google thinks this thread is a good choice:


(well, better than his first book)
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


But lesser than "vox day idiot", I see.

ETA not fast enough. Never mind.
Posted by: Beelzebub667 on June 25 2010,05:50

My comments are deleted from his site, but I'll duplicate some here, along with a link to the the post, if Rich doesn't mind (?)  It's kind of inspiring that Googlebot ranks this commentary so highly.

< When the punchline writes itself >

Oh, I don't know, Einstein was quite the ladies man, as was James Watson. And when you're a ladies man and look like James Watson, you have to be doing something right. Come to think of it, scientists score pretty well with the opposite sex.

btw - There's nothing in "libertarian gun nut" that exactly spells "babe magnet."
Posted by: Richardthughes on June 25 2010,08:38

Chief, it's a free for all here. Post away!
Posted by: Beelzebub667 on June 26 2010,05:18

< Hypergamy trumps ideology >

Be honest, is SB hypergamotic?

(Note: To be fair, I guess in VD-world, the fact that Spacebunny is a gold-digger isn't much of a sin, since she's not a feminist.  It is a little ironic, th'o, that the man is lambasting other women for a characteristic his own wife shows.)
Posted by: Beelzebub667 on June 28 2010,05:15

< Winning the War Against Men >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
There is of course so much lunacy here that one hesitates at the array of options, but I'll just focus on the 11 year old's testimony. The thing that immediately jumped out at me is that there are no 11 year olds who can have properly assess the global warming theory to have progressed far enough to label it collectively as "wacko" without having been prompted to do so. This makes his story suspect right off the bat, but even if we give him the benefit of the doubt, that his teacher is actually "misandrist" (again, not exactly 11 yr old typical), his complaint is pure anecdote. Nearly anyone, if questioned, will recount a disgruntled female grade school teacher, and a whole string of overbearingly aggressive male gym teachers. I'm willing to admit that it is distinctly possible that, in the rush to aid mid-20th century girls, boys have been neglected, but I don't agree that this amounts to a "war" on boys. Whether men have been lined up in the sights is strictly dependent on what you think your role is versus women, and the brand of Christianity you subscribe to, where women are submissive, absolutely colors your perspective on their status, and your supposed oppression.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: Richardthughes on June 28 2010,08:16

Quote (Beelzebub667 @ June 28 2010,05:15)
< Winning the War Against Men >

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
There is of course so much lunacy here that one hesitates at the array of options, but I'll just focus on the 11 year old's testimony. The thing that immediately jumped out at me is that there are no 11 year olds who can have properly assess the global warming theory to have progressed far enough to label it collectively as "wacko" without having been prompted to do so. This makes his story suspect right off the bat, but even if we give him the benefit of the doubt, that his teacher is actually "misandrist" (again, not exactly 11 yr old typical), his complaint is pure anecdote. Nearly anyone, if questioned, will recount a disgruntled female grade school teacher, and a whole string of overbearingly aggressive male gym teachers. I'm willing to admit that it is distinctly possible that, in the rush to aid mid-20th century girls, boys have been neglected, but I don't agree that this amounts to a "war" on boys. Whether men have been lined up in the sights is strictly dependent on what you think your role is versus women, and the brand of Christianity you subscribe to, where women are submissive, absolutely colors your perspective on their status, and your supposed oppression.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


---------------------QUOTE-------------------


From his wing-nut-daily article:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
...they have demonstrated quite the opposite in illustrating how the male concepts of logic, honor, justice and self-sacrifice are almost entirely alien to the female mind.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Yeah, like when have mothers ever sacrificed anything for anyone? Misogynistic tool.
Posted by: Richardthughes on June 28 2010,08:20

Bonus bogus:

< http://www.americanthinker.com/2010....su.html >

Ghostwritten or indoctrinated?

Should have home-schooled the little urchin if they were worries about exposure to facts.
Posted by: J-Dog on June 28 2010,08:55

Quote (Richardthughes @ June 28 2010,08:20)
Bonus bogus:

< http://www.americanthinker.com/2010....su.html >

Ghostwritten or indoctrinated?

Should have home-schooled the little urchin if they were worries about exposure to facts.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


That's a great link!!!

From the "article"



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Of course, the girls loved the book and most of the boys hated it, except for a few who liked it and also wanted to become mothers some day.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



It could have been written by Gil, Barry or any usual ud poster.
Posted by: Richardthughes on June 29 2010,13:24



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
VD [snip]...When I give up something for something else that I want, that is usually described as a trade, not a sacrifice.

To claim that a woman sacrifices in order to become a mother intrinsically implies that her children are less valuable to her than whatever it was she gave up.



Torben...By this 'reasoning' any self sacrifice that is not unintentional isn't self sacrifice at all, because you wanted to do it. Is this how the phrase is commonly understood and deployed?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/06/mailvox-and-yet-they-wonder.html >

Torben should have said 'employed' rather than 'deployed'. Too much bizniz speak, Torben!

Edited.
Posted by: Richardthughes on June 29 2010,14:15



---------------------QUOTE-------------------

VD: 6/29/10 1:59 PM:
No, what is this "opportunity cost" of which you speak?



I see. You'll get arsey over scare quotes but then instantly resort to sarcasm.

I'll take you at face value. It's a pretty basic yet fundamental economic concept that is key to seeing how folks maximize their utility. Have a google - I'm sure there are lots of good articles.



VD: 6/29/10 1:59 PM:
It sounds very complicated, especially if it only applies to women who are mothers.



No one even remotely suggested that, drama queen.


VD: 6/29/10 1:59 PM:
Regardless, you haven't answered the question. Specifically what are all mothers who are doing it correctly sacrificing?



Explicitly opportunity, implicitly lots of things.

VD: 6/29/10 1:59 PM:
The assertion was that female self-sacrifice is greater than male self-sacrifice



Not by me.


VD: 6/29/10 1:59 PM:
Naturally, as an astute and advanced economist,



I am not nor claimed to be


VD: 6/29/10 1:59 PM:
you will understand that it is necessary to specify the value of the former before you can compare it to the latter.



That's someone else's issue. Mine was that the way you use self-sacrifice is not the way others use it or understand it and so you might be a disengeniuos queef
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Edited for format
Posted by: Beelzebub667 on June 29 2010,15:56

Hilarity alert: Courtesy e-referrer VD's site now has a link to this site in the left margin.
Posted by: Beelzebub667 on June 29 2010,16:00

In fact I think I'll add another link to seal the deal.

< Los Links! Los Links! >
Posted by: Beelzebub667 on June 29 2010,16:10

Wow it updates in real time, so keep clicking those links.  I could do this all day.  In fact, I may.  I might not be satisfied until we're at the top.

< Do it for your mother. >
Posted by: Richardthughes on June 29 2010,16:13

Quote (Beelzebub667 @ June 29 2010,16:00)
In fact I think I'll add another link to seal the deal.

< Los Links! Los Links! >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Posted by: Richardthughes on June 29 2010,16:22

Gah.. he's pulled it.


Posted by: Beelzebub667 on June 29 2010,16:35

Ah well, it was fun while it lasted.  Nice that you recorded it for posterity.
Posted by: Richardthughes on June 29 2010,16:38

Quote (Beelzebub667 @ June 29 2010,16:35)
Ah well, it was fun while it lasted.  Nice that you recorded it for posterity.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


His little world can't have too much reality in it..
Posted by: fnxtr on June 29 2010,19:31

Quote (Richardthughes @ June 29 2010,14:38)
   
Quote (Beelzebub667 @ June 29 2010,16:35)
Ah well, it was fun while it lasted.  Nice that you recorded it for posterity.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


His little world can't have too much any reality in it..
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


FTFY
Posted by: Beelzebub667 on July 08 2010,00:35

Initial release of the "WarMouse" seems to have some problems:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------

So let's see...the WarMouse is the size of a rat and it's partially dead.  I know, you should change its name to Warfarin.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: Beelzebub667 on July 08 2010,05:34

It now looks like the "Warfarin" shipments have been suspended until further research is conducted on this dead rat.
Posted by: Beelzebub667 on July 08 2010,05:39

I love it when Nazi's fail.  I'd hate to hear talk in the bunker today.

Do I feel guilt over wishing ill of Vox's business venture?  No, perhaps guilty pleasure, but God help me, I feel GRRRRReat!!!
Posted by: Richardthughes on July 08 2010,09:08

This is going to be fun:

< http://www.i-newswire.com/warmouse-meta-the-king-of-all-computer/47327 >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Hands-on reviews of the mouse from various technology sites have been uniformly positive:
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Oh, I bet that wont hold up!
Posted by: Richardthughes on July 08 2010,09:27

Quote (Beelzebub667 @ July 08 2010,00:35)
Initial release of the "WarMouse" seems to have some problems:

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------

So let's see...the WarMouse is the size of a rat and it's partially dead.  I know, you should change its name to Warfarin.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You've got to provide links, chief!
Posted by: Richardthughes on July 08 2010,10:04

Haha - from their Dev. blog

< http://warmouse.com/blog/?p=361#comments >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
A few things:

1. We’re putting a hold on shipping out any more mice until we can sort out this L1/R1 problem. It APPEARS to be a hardware problem that affects all mice but is one that people with longer fingers or a grip that orients towards the front do not notice. Alberto’s remapping test would appear to confirm my suspicions about the problem.

2. We are going to fix the scroll wheel problem while we’re fixing the L1/R1 problem. Two birds, one stone, etc.

3. I don’t know if we’re going to handle this by fixing the problem mice or by sending out new mice that are confirmed to be fixed to everyone who is experiencing the L1/R1 problem. Either way, it’s going to take some time to figure out the correct resolution to the problem, so please bear with us in the confidence that we will sort this out to your satisfaction. If you are experiencing the L1/R1 problem, we recommend assigning L1 to A5 and R1 to B7 in the meantime to stay operational during this time.

4. Brian, we may need you to send your mouse back since there are no other reports of joystick tightness. So, we have to figure out if you got a flawed joystick or simply have very weak thumbs…. We’ll be in touch.

5. We’re very sorry for these hardware problems, but we are getting them sorted out. We are committed to producing the best mouse available, and we know we have not yet reached that point.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------







---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Michael said on July 8th, 2010 , 5:36 am
when are you guys gonna send out the 2nd batch?

my order number is #160 and was told it was gonna shipped on Tuesday or Wednesday so not sure if im was in the first batch or in the 2nd?

i also tried emailing you guys too ask if the payment and stuff went ok but i guess it did sense the money got tooking out .

thanks:)

Carl said on July 8th, 2010 , 7:37 am
I have order number 25, Michael, and still haven’t received mine either. It looks like they are prioritizing in some way or simply that they are swamped with the first reports back. Honestly, I’d rather take a 2nd batch delivery to avoid having the scroll wheel bug.


---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Wow - they may ship... Hundreds.
Posted by: Beelzebub667 on July 08 2010,15:08

Quote (Richardthughes @ July 08 2010,09:27)
Quote (Beelzebub667 @ July 08 2010,00:35)
Initial release of the "WarMouse" seems to have some problems:

   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------

So let's see...the WarMouse is the size of a rat and it's partially dead.  I know, you should change its name to Warfarin.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You've got to provide links, chief!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


My apologies, it was an off topic discussion on one of his latest posts.

signed, Sitting Bull
Posted by: didymos on July 08 2010,19:42

Quote (Richardthughes @ July 08 2010,08:04)
Wow - they may ship... Hundreds.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Googling this monstrosity turned up this thread :

< http://www.overclock.net/hardwar....ng.html >


My favorite comment (despite the grammar) was < this one >:


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Should of bedazzled it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



I'm sensing a distinct lack of future popularity.
Posted by: Robin on July 09 2010,09:23

Just curious, but what has this warvarmint...thing...have to do with Vox Day?
Posted by: khan on July 09 2010,09:27

Quote (Robin @ July 09 2010,10:23)
Just curious, but what has this warvarmint...thing...have to do with Vox Day?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I think he invented it.
Posted by: Robin on July 09 2010,10:09

Quote (khan @ July 09 2010,09:27)

---------------------QUOTE-------------------




---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Quote (Robin @ July 09 2010,10:23)
Just curious, but what has this warvarmint...thing...have to do with Vox Day?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I think he invented it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Ahhh...I thought it might be something like that, but I couldn't find a reference to him on the sites. Thanks!

Ok...as you were...continue the flogging!
Posted by: Badger3k on July 09 2010,11:16

Quote (Robin @ July 09 2010,10:09)
[quote=khan,July 09 2010,09:27][/quote]


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Quote (Robin @ July 09 2010,10:23)
Just curious, but what has this warvarmint...thing...have to do with Vox Day?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I think he invented it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Ahhh...I thought it might be something like that, but I couldn't find a reference to him on the sites. Thanks!

Ok...as you were...continue the flogging!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


This was the first post on this thread that I found mentioning this: < http://www.antievolution.org/cgi-bin....y159827 >

(sorry, for some reason I can't format it)
Posted by: fnxtr on July 09 2010,15:43

Quote (khan @ July 09 2010,07:27)
Quote (Robin @ July 09 2010,10:23)
Just curious, but what has this warvarmint...thing...have to do with Vox Day?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I think he invented it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


... in one of the most peculiar expressions of overcompensation ever.
Posted by: Richardthughes on July 09 2010,16:02

Sweeeeeeeet!


Posted by: Richardthughes on July 19 2010,09:01

Vox decides to pit science against religion:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/07/science-vs-religion.html >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
PTQ claimed that science has a vast track record of correct predictions while religion has none. "Science has produced zillions of correct predictions. Religion has produced none. A bigger winner-loser gulf does not exist." Very well, then let's place a bet on the matter:

Religion: The poor will be with you always.
Science: Global poverty will be ended by 2025.

From The End of Poverty by economist Jeffrey Sachs: "This book declares, at the core, that steadfast, science-based approaches can end extreme poverty on the planet. The benefits of modern science and technology which have reached Bulgaria and most of the rest of the world can work for the poorest of the poor as well.... the great challenge and possibility of our time: to end extreme poverty on the planet by the year 2025."

...

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



So my socks had some fun.

First - its a horrible strawman. Jeffrey Sachs is not the spokesman for 'science' nor is ".... the great challenge and possibility of our time: to end extreme poverty on the planet by the year 2025" a prediction, more like a call to arms.

The quote "The poor will be with you always." is from Mark 14. But Mark 16 has BETTER predictions:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Funny how he didn't choose these ones.

Of course all the comments my sock made pointing this out to him were deleted, because the intellectual midget can have reality raining on his TARDrade.
Posted by: dheddle on July 19 2010,10:35

Quote (Richardthughes @ July 19 2010,09:01)
Vox decides to pit science against religion:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/07/science-vs-religion.html >

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
PTQ claimed that science has a vast track record of correct predictions while religion has none. "Science has produced zillions of correct predictions. Religion has produced none. A bigger winner-loser gulf does not exist." Very well, then let's place a bet on the matter:

Religion: The poor will be with you always.
Science: Global poverty will be ended by 2025.

From The End of Poverty by economist Jeffrey Sachs: "This book declares, at the core, that steadfast, science-based approaches can end extreme poverty on the planet. The benefits of modern science and technology which have reached Bulgaria and most of the rest of the world can work for the poorest of the poor as well.... the great challenge and possibility of our time: to end extreme poverty on the planet by the year 2025."

...

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



So my socks had some fun.

First - its a horrible strawman. Jeffrey Sachs is not the spokesman for 'science' nor is ".... the great challenge and possibility of our time: to end extreme poverty on the planet by the year 2025" a prediction, more like a call to arms.

The quote "The poor will be with you always." is from Mark 14. But Mark 16 has BETTER predictions:

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Funny how he didn't choose these ones.

Of course all the comments my sock made pointing this out to him were deleted, because the intellectual midget can have reality raining on his TARDrade.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Now Richard, to be fair you should pick something else. That passage, know as the < Markan Appendix > is not in many of the oldest extant manuscripts. Most view it as an addition--and most bible translations will indicate that Mark 16:8 is probably the last verse in the chapter.

For example, the NIV inserts this comment after verse 9:

The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20
Posted by: Richardthughes on July 19 2010,10:38

Quote (dheddle @ July 19 2010,10:35)
Quote (Richardthughes @ July 19 2010,09:01)
Vox decides to pit science against religion:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/07/science-vs-religion.html >

   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
PTQ claimed that science has a vast track record of correct predictions while religion has none. "Science has produced zillions of correct predictions. Religion has produced none. A bigger winner-loser gulf does not exist." Very well, then let's place a bet on the matter:

Religion: The poor will be with you always.
Science: Global poverty will be ended by 2025.

From The End of Poverty by economist Jeffrey Sachs: "This book declares, at the core, that steadfast, science-based approaches can end extreme poverty on the planet. The benefits of modern science and technology which have reached Bulgaria and most of the rest of the world can work for the poorest of the poor as well.... the great challenge and possibility of our time: to end extreme poverty on the planet by the year 2025."

...

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



So my socks had some fun.

First - its a horrible strawman. Jeffrey Sachs is not the spokesman for 'science' nor is ".... the great challenge and possibility of our time: to end extreme poverty on the planet by the year 2025" a prediction, more like a call to arms.

The quote "The poor will be with you always." is from Mark 14. But Mark 16 has BETTER predictions:

   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Funny how he didn't choose these ones.

Of course all the comments my sock made pointing this out to him were deleted, because the intellectual midget can have reality raining on his TARDrade.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Now Richard, to be fair you should pick something else. That passage, know as the < Markan Appendix > is not in many of the oldest extant manuscripts. Most view it as an addition--and most bible translations will indicate that Mark 16:8 is probably the last verse in the chapter.

For example, the NIV inserts this comment after verse 9:

The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Fair enough. But the The Codex Sinaiticus has no resurrection. Are you willing to toss that one out?
Posted by: Alan Fox on July 19 2010,10:42

Fascinating link, David. How does in-errancy square with these obvious doubts over provenance?
Posted by: Richardthughes on July 19 2010,10:48

Inerrancy by committee!  ???
Posted by: dheddle on July 19 2010,10:54

Quote (Alan Fox @ July 19 2010,10:42)
Fascinating link, David. How does in-errancy square with these obvious doubts over provenance?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It's tricky. Technically the definition from < Wiki: >
 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Biblical inerrancy is the doctrinal  position that the Bible is considered accurate and totally free of error.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Is not correct. Inerrancy claims that scripture is innerant. It doesn't claim the ability to determine what is scripture. It doesn't rule out that, say, Revelation is only included in the bible by mistake. The reliability of the canon is an entirely separate issue. (So Rich it is not innerancy by committee--it is "what is scripture" by committee.)
Posted by: Richardthughes on July 19 2010,11:00

And everything I say is true apart from the lies...

From a practical standpoint, 'usability' if you will, it renders the bible errant.
Posted by: dheddle on July 19 2010,11:04

Quote (Richardthughes @ July 19 2010,11:00)
And everything I say is true apart from the lies...

From a practical standpoint, 'usability' if you will, it renders the bible errant.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Don't make me refudiate you!
Posted by: k.e.. on July 19 2010,11:57

Quote (dheddle @ July 19 2010,19:04)
Quote (Richardthughes @ July 19 2010,11:00)
And everything I say is true apart from the lies...

From a practical standpoint, 'usability' if you will, it renders the bible errant.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Don't make me refudiate you!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


talking snakes again Heddle?
Posted by: carlsonjok on July 19 2010,12:03

Quote (Richardthughes @ July 19 2010,09:01)
Of course all the comments my sock made pointing this out to him were deleted, because the intellectual midget can have reality raining on his TARDrade.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You'd think someone with a flaming sword wouldn't be such a chicken shit.


Posted by: dheddle on July 19 2010,12:07

Quote (k.e.. @ July 19 2010,11:57)
 
Quote (dheddle @ July 19 2010,19:04)
 
Quote (Richardthughes @ July 19 2010,11:00)
And everything I say is true apart from the lies...

From a practical standpoint, 'usability' if you will, it renders the bible errant.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Don't make me refudiate you!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


talking snakes again Heddle?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Actually k.e. there is no indication he spoke after he became a snake in Gen 3:14. Before that he might have looked like anything--for example like < Joe Torre >, but with big bosoms. Who knows these imponderables?
Posted by: k.e.. on July 19 2010,13:28

Quote (dheddle @ July 19 2010,20:07)
Quote (k.e.. @ July 19 2010,11:57)
 
Quote (dheddle @ July 19 2010,19:04)
   
Quote (Richardthughes @ July 19 2010,11:00)
And everything I say is true apart from the lies...

From a practical standpoint, 'usability' if you will, it renders the bible errant.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Don't make me refudiate you!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


talking snakes again Heddle?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Actually k.e. there is no indication he spoke after he became a snake in Gen 3:14. Before that he might have looked like anything--for example like < Joe Torre >, but with big bosoms. Who knows these imponderables?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Yeah the whole thing is certainly open to individual interpretation especially the bossoms part.
Posted by: Beelzebub667 on July 28 2010,06:19

That image reminds me of one suspicion I've always had about VD.  Beyond the first impression of developed biceps, you start to realize due to the proportion of head and body to arm, you're looking at a very, very small man.  I've seen guys like this in the gym and they're always about 5'1''.  VD fits the Napoleon complex to a t.
Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on July 28 2010,06:21

VD: the acronyme fits the man, no doubts about it...
Posted by: Louis on July 28 2010,07:16

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ July 28 2010,12:21)
VD: the acronyme fits the man, no doubts about it...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


If you are insinuating that Theodore is an infected pustule on the anus of humanity who, like really virulent herpes, simply will not just go away, then I have to say one thing:

I agree wholeheartedly. Carry on.

Louis
Posted by: Gunthernacus on July 28 2010,10:44

Quote (Beelzebub667 @ July 28 2010,07:19)
That image reminds me of one suspicion I've always had about VD.  Beyond the first impression of developed biceps, you start to realize due to the proportion of head and body to arm, you're looking at a very, very small man.  I've seen guys like this in the gym and they're always about 5'1''.  VD fits the Napoleon complex to a t.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


That and the fact that he's wielding a LotR movie promotional letter opener.
Posted by: Richardthughes on July 28 2010,11:42

Quote (Beelzebub667 @ July 28 2010,06:19)
That image reminds me of one suspicion I've always had about VD.  Beyond the first impression of developed biceps, you start to realize due to the proportion of head and body to arm, you're looking at a very, very small man.  I've seen guys like this in the gym and they're always about 5'1''.  VD fits the Napoleon complex to a t.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


He hates women because they're taller than him.
Posted by: Richardthughes on July 30 2010,09:16

Don't worry if you baught a FAILmouse. You can get a new FAILmouse that might work in 4 weeks.

< http://warmouse.com/blog/?p=383 >
Posted by: Gunthernacus on July 30 2010,13:08

Quote (Richardthughes @ July 30 2010,10:16)
Don't worry if you baught a FAILmouse. You can get a new FAILmouse that might work in 4 weeks.

< http://warmouse.com/blog/?p=383 >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


LOL.  What a bunch of hucksters.  Multiple problems with the mouse, probably not repairable, so - as a favor to their suckers - they are going to replace them.
 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
You will have the option of either sending your current mouse back to either our American or our UK address after the replacement mouse arrives or keeping your old mouse for $25.  If, as we anticipate, you prefer to send your old mouse back to us, you will have 30 days from the receipt of your replacement mouse to send it back.  If we don’t receive it, we will charge your credit card $30.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You can keep the broken mouse for $25, but if you don't send it back - it's $30.

You have 30 days to send it back before you get charged the $35.  After 30 days it's $40, plus freight makes it $45 for an even $50.  If you haven't canceled your credit card account in 2 months time, we will bill an additional $60 plus a $65 it's-cheaper-to-just-pay-it-than-hire-a-lawyer fee.  Any credit card accounts that are still valid after 3 months, we will assume that your hands are too crippled from trying to learn our wearymouse to use the phone (that and simply just unwilling to push any more buttons) and a new round of charges will begin.
Posted by: Beelzebub667 on Aug. 01 2010,17:55

Typical small-time shady operation.  Look, they know their mice are unusably flawed, but instead of doing the truly honorable thing and sending everyone who has already wasted their time and effort with it a new, fixed mouse, hassle free, they want to recoup the losses of their incompetence.
Posted by: MichaelJ on Aug. 01 2010,19:00

Quote (Beelzebub667 @ Aug. 02 2010,08:55)
Typical small-time shady operation.  Look, they know their mice are unusably flawed, but instead of doing the truly honorable thing and sending everyone who has already wasted their time and effort with it a new, fixed mouse, hassle free, they want to recoup the losses of their incompetence.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


No so much shady but incompentant. You think that you would at least spend some time testing the production mice before shipping.
These sound like pretty major flaws
Posted by: Richardthughes on Aug. 03 2010,09:47

"Propper Popper" seems to be having fun with over there, he's called him out on Tiktaalik and his very poor PowerPoint.
Posted by: oldmanintheskydidntdoit on Aug. 03 2010,10:16

This is pathetic


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
In order to improve our quality testing, we will select two or three customers and ask them to confirm the fixes as well before we pull the trigger on the production run.  
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Um, they could quite easily check themselves if the buttons work but no, for some reason customers will decide that...
Posted by: Richardthughes on Aug. 03 2010,10:20

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Aug. 03 2010,10:16)
This is pathetic


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
In order to improve our quality testing, we will select two or three customers and ask them to confirm the fixes as well before we pull the trigger on the production run.  
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Um, they could quite easily check themselves if the buttons work but no, for some reason customers will decide that...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Because statistically having three people test something on three units is all you need for very high confidence in mass produced electronic goods.

We call it .006 Sigma.
Posted by: midwifetoad on Aug. 03 2010,12:21

That's not a mouse.

THIS is a mouse.


Posted by: JohnW on Aug. 03 2010,13:18

Quote (Richardthughes @ Aug. 03 2010,08:20)
Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Aug. 03 2010,10:16)
This is pathetic
 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
In order to improve our quality testing, we will select two or three customers and ask them to confirm the fixes as well before we pull the trigger on the production run.  
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Um, they could quite easily check themselves if the buttons work but no, for some reason customers will decide that...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Because statistically having three people test something on three units is all you need for very high confidence in mass produced electronic goods.

We call it .006 Sigma.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


True, but three is probably a decent-size sample of their total sales.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Aug. 03 2010,14:20

Quote (midwifetoad @ Aug. 03 2010,12:21)
That's not a mouse.

THIS is a mouse.


---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Make / model?
Posted by: midwifetoad on Aug. 03 2010,14:25

< http://videogames.barnesandnoble.com/search....2DMouse >

< http://gizmodo.com/5441659....ichrist >
Posted by: carlsonjok on Aug. 04 2010,09:09

Quote (Richardthughes @ Aug. 03 2010,10:20)
Because statistically having three people test something on three units is all you need for very high confidence in mass produced electronic goods.

We call it .006 Sigma.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


LOL. I am spending my week in Guadalajara listening to a strategic supplier prattle on about Lean - 6 Sigma.  I may be the only one here at ATBC that laughed at that, but I did, you magnificent bastard.
Posted by: Robin on Aug. 04 2010,09:32

Quote (carlsonjok @ Aug. 04 2010,09:09)

---------------------QUOTE-------------------




---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Quote (Richardthughes @ Aug. 03 2010,10:20)
Because statistically having three people test something on three units is all you need for very high confidence in mass produced electronic goods.

We call it .006 Sigma.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


LOL. I am spending my week in Guadalajara listening to a strategic supplier prattle on about Lean - 6 Sigma.  I may be the only one here at ATBC that laughed at that, but I did, you magnificent bastard.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



No, I did too. I had the fun-packed job of getting the company I work for to understand and adopt a "process Improvement Methodology" (a la CMMI, for those familiar) to achieve the proper "actualization" for two separate ratings. Yeah...gotta love that stuff!  ;)
Posted by: Richardthughes on Aug. 05 2010,09:16

Here we go:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/08/darwinianism-and-evolution.html >

Vox Day = Corny.
Posted by: MichaelJ on Aug. 05 2010,18:40

Quote (Richardthughes @ Aug. 06 2010,00:16)
Here we go:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/08/darwinianism-and-evolution.html >

Vox Day = Corny.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


What is it about these rightwing nut jobs? They paint themselves as rugged individuals who think for themselves but they all have exactly the same bag of beliefs
Posted by: Richardthughes on Aug. 09 2010,17:02

Moar_fun with voxtard

he states:




---------------------QUOTE-------------------
"all of the evolution-based models of genetics were wrong,"
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



and gets aked:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
- which ones are those, then?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



He replies:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
"What part of "all" do you not understand. All of them."
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



So the follow up is:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
"Coudl you name a few, so I could research them and your claim? Thanks in adavance."
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Of course he can't list any, and so rapidly starts deleting comments. What a coward!

here:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/08/science-gets-it-wrong-again.html >
Posted by: Beelzebub667 on Aug. 09 2010,18:12

I see that Vox is tilting at windmills again.  Funny how Venter is kinda sorta "okay" in his book, only because Venter's was a private business.  What really gets VD's goat is that the HGP was TAX FUNDED by the gubmint.  And that, of course, is unforgivable.

Also enjoyed the comment about Chris Reeve: "Still waiting for Christopher Reeves (sic) to rise up again and walk."  Hmmm, could have something to do with the fact that he's DEAD.  Then again, we're all awaiting the resurrection, aren't we?
Posted by: Tom Ames on Aug. 09 2010,18:37

I am SO enjoying the spectacle of War Mouse's crashing-and-burning!
Posted by: Wesley R. Elsberry on Aug. 09 2010,18:39

I thought it was supposed to be...

"You call *that* a mouse? *This* is a mouse!"
Posted by: Beelzebub667 on Aug. 09 2010,20:33

From their :

< "Development Blog" >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
After some spirited discussions about the question of whether we will pay for all of the shipping costs required for the mouse replacement program, we have decided to revise our policy with regards to the return of the first-run mice. We concluded that it is no more our goal to provide average customer service than to make an average computer mouse, and therefore we have decided to pay the cost of shipping the first-run mice back to us. If you elect to return your first mouse, we will send you a pre-paid mailing label along with the replacement mouse if that is possible or else we will arrange to refund your credit card in the amount of the shipping costs.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Note to WarMouse: that would be de rigour for anyone but fly-by-night operations.  You don't charge people to ship your piece of shit back to you.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Aug. 10 2010,08:45

The replacement form is good - they did well keeping it down to one page...


< http://warmouse.com/branding/docs/Mouse_Replacement_Form.doc >
Posted by: fnxtr on Aug. 10 2010,08:59

Quote (Beelzebub667 @ Aug. 09 2010,18:33)
From their :

< "Development Blog" >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
After some spirited discussions about the question of whether we will pay for all of the shipping costs required for the mouse replacement program, we have decided to revise our policy with regards to the return of the first-run mice. We concluded that it is no more our goal to provide average customer service than to make an average computer mouse, and therefore we have decided to pay the cost of shipping the first-run mice back to us. If you elect to return your first mouse, we will send you a pre-paid mailing label along with the replacement mouse if that is possible or else we will arrange to refund your credit card in the amount of the shipping costs.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Note to WarMouse: that would be de rigour for anyone but fly-by-night operations.  You don't charge people to ship your piece of shit back to you.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


(snort)

(snicker)

"Intelligent Design"

Bwahahahahahahahaha!
Posted by: Richardthughes on Aug. 10 2010,09:09



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Thomas M said on August 9th, 2010 , 3:52 pm
Are there changes in the Altstick/Joystick in the new revision?

As I mentioned before – I had to remove the plastic cover to be able to use it for and it still sometimes fails to send the right keypress.

admin said on August 9th, 2010 , 5:43 pm
No, the joystick tested out fine. Either there is something mechanically wrong with your component, the cover was installed backwards, or you are using it incorrectly. You should be able to tell which of the three is applicable when your replacement mouse arrives. In the meantime, we would recommend making sure you have the cover on the right way. The thicker part of the receptacle should be towards the back of the mouse. We have had two confirmed cases of the cover being assembled backwards.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: Richardthughes on Aug. 12 2010,15:08

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/08/anklebiters-anonymous.html >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
...Actually, it has really made me wish that we could do an Ilk Homeschool recommendation list. Since so many of you are very intelligent and educated I would love to hear your recommendations on books and such for my littles.

I would love to have little "Ilks" running around having wondeful debates one day (Of course, with a concentration on the Gospel first :).


Spacebunny     8/12/10 2:58 PM
Ace - I'll ask Vox to post on it and I'll link to it on the homeschooling group.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: Mindrover on Aug. 12 2010,15:48

Quote (Richardthughes @ Aug. 12 2010,15:08)
< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/08/anklebiters-anonymous.html >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
...Actually, it has really made me wish that we could do an Ilk Homeschool recommendation list. Since so many of you are very intelligent and educated I would love to hear your recommendations on books and such for my littles.

I would love to have little "Ilks" running around having wondeful debates one day (Of course, with a concentration on the Gospel first :).


Spacebunny     8/12/10 2:58 PM
Ace - I'll ask Vox to post on it and I'll link to it on the homeschooling group.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


---------------------QUOTE-------------------


On the one hand, I weep for those children.
On the other hand, I'm glad my kids won't have as much competition for college admissions.
Posted by: Beelzebub667 on Aug. 13 2010,05:04

The kind of interesting thing is that children are the one thing that can blast idiots like this out of their delusion.  Unfortunately, most children succumb to the mind tricks and programming, but every so often that one child comes along who is headstrong enough not to take it.  They're either cast out as the black sheep of the family, or they take the whole family with them onto a more rational plan.  It happens.  Dan Barker is one example, though it took him a while to do it.  They can ignore the outsider, in fact their entire belief system is designed to keep them on the alert.  But they can't easily dismiss dissidence from within the family.
Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on Aug. 13 2010,05:29

Quote (Beelzebub667 @ Aug. 13 2010,11:04)
The kind of interesting thing is that children are the one thing that can blast idiots like this out of their delusion.  Unfortunately, most children succumb to the mind tricks and programming, but every so often that one child comes along who is headstrong enough not to take it.  They're either cast out as the black sheep of the family, or they take the whole family with them onto a more rational plan.  It happens.  Dan Barker is one example, though it took him a while to do it.  They can ignore the outsider, in fact their entire belief system is designed to keep them on the alert.  But they can't easily dismiss dissidence from within the family.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


A bit like the Matrix, then...
Posted by: Richardthughes on Aug. 19 2010,11:50

Vox takes an English writer to task for critiquing the '911 mosque' based on his location.

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/08/illustrating-mpai_19.html >

Vox now lives in Italy.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Sep. 09 2010,22:57

Another prediction:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010....ll.html >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
The Vikes will win tonight. The reason is simple. The Vikings reliably beat the team that most recently dealt them a big loss.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: Richardthughes on Sep. 10 2010,09:36

GrRRRRRrrr athiems pt 212753

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/09/amoral-essence-of-atheism.html >
Posted by: J-Dog on Sep. 10 2010,10:37

Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 10 2010,09:36)
GrRRRRRrrr athiems pt 212753

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/09/amoral-essence-of-atheism.html >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The posters at that site should be at UD - they fit in perfectly!
Posted by: Richardthughes on Sep. 12 2010,19:23

Over the past 20 years, gays killed broadway!

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/09/mailvox-decline-of-broadway.html >

Thank goodness it wasn't TV or new media!
Posted by: Badger3k on Sep. 12 2010,20:20

Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 12 2010,19:23)
Over the past 20 years, gays killed broadway!

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/09/mailvox-decline-of-broadway.html >

Thank goodness it wasn't TV or new media!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I liked the "homo-esoteric" bit.  I learn something new every day!

I also like the way he admits there are other factors, although he doesn't name them.  I wonder if the fact that prices are a bit...uh...high has anything to do with it?  I took a quick look and found out that two tickets to Wicked range from $67 to $300.  Given the economy, maybe that might be a factor?  I rarely go to movies because the prices are outrageous, so what do the non-rich do when confronted by prices like that?  Especially when later on the show will probably be on tv or dvd?

I also liked how he points to the increase in the population of the US, but how does that matter to Broadway?  From what I can tell of the site, it seems to indicate the physical Broadway, in NYC.  How does an increase in, say, the middle of Texas, lead to more people who can see a Broadway show?  I've never been to NY, and probably never will.  Surely Teddy Beale, Super-Genius, has considered that into his Deep Thoughts?

;)
Posted by: Richardthughes on Sep. 12 2010,21:17

Quote (Badger3k @ Sep. 12 2010,20:20)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 12 2010,19:23)
Over the past 20 years, gays killed broadway!

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/09/mailvox-decline-of-broadway.html >

Thank goodness it wasn't TV or new media!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I liked the "homo-esoteric" bit.  I learn something new every day!

I also like the way he admits there are other factors, although he doesn't name them.  I wonder if the fact that prices are a bit...uh...high has anything to do with it?  I took a quick look and found out that two tickets to Wicked range from $67 to $300.  Given the economy, maybe that might be a factor?  I rarely go to movies because the prices are outrageous, so what do the non-rich do when confronted by prices like that?  Especially when later on the show will probably be on tv or dvd?

I also liked how he points to the increase in the population of the US, but how does that matter to Broadway?  From what I can tell of the site, it seems to indicate the physical Broadway, in NYC.  How does an increase in, say, the middle of Texas, lead to more people who can see a Broadway show?  I've never been to NY, and probably never will.  Surely Teddy Beale, Super-Genius, has considered that into his Deep Thoughts?

;)
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


< Plus, they're supposed to make a loss.. >
Posted by: MichaelJ on Sep. 12 2010,21:24

Manly he-men like Rock Hudson would be shocked about the way broadway carries on now.
Posted by: Kattarina98 on Sep. 13 2010,03:47

Germany is doomed - our Minister of Foreign Affairs is gay, and so is the Lord Mayor of Berlin.
Posted by: didymos on Sep. 13 2010,05:49

Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 12 2010,17:23)
Over the past 20 years, gays killed broadway!

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/09/mailvox-decline-of-broadway.html >

Thank goodness it wasn't TV or new media!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The most bizarre thing is ChickenVox apparently has this notion  that, somehow, Broadway was largely free of "teh ghey" 20 years ago. Yep, it all started with Angels In America.  

Before that?  PURE UNADULTERATED HETERONORMATIVE-MANLINESS!!!!!

Well, except for stuff like Cabaret, A Chorus Line, Bent, La Cage aux Folles, and probably about eleventy-billion others that I wasn't able to find in the roughly 2 seconds I spent on Wikipedia.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Sep. 13 2010,09:06

Wow - last night someone (not me) had posted 'correlation is not causation' or words to that effect. He's deleted it.

Vox, they're all tards there, don't bother trying to save face.
Posted by: olegt on Sep. 13 2010,09:34

Vox dispenses his wisdom:


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
The popularity [of gay-friendly shows] isn't extreme. It's just successful in a much smaller niche market that only women and gay men watch. Look at the Nielsen shares.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


"Only women" make about what, 50% of the TV audience?
Posted by: J-Dog on Sep. 13 2010,09:43

Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 13 2010,09:06)
Wow - last night someone (not me) had posted 'correlation is not causation' or words to that effect. He's deleted it.

Vox, they're all tards there, don't bother trying to save face.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It's just a matter of time before somebody posts about the link between The Need for Bigger Mice and /or over-compensation and Teh Gay.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Sep. 13 2010,09:50

More FAILMOUSE schadenfreude..

< http://warmouse.com/blog/?p=413 >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
The replacement program is progressing slower than we would like because for some reason that presently remains inexplicable, the first sample from the second production run did not match the prototype. The joystick was not mounted horizontally, but angled upward in a manner that would have caused problems. So, we had to tell the factory to fix the newly introduced hardware bug, which is why we haven’t sent any replacements out yet. We will provide you all with a ship date as soon as we have one. We completely understand everyone is eager to get a fixed mouse, but after sending you mice of a quality we consider unsatisfactory, we don’t believe we would be serving either you or ourselves well by sending out mice that we know are flawed. So, please hold tight, keep using your current Metas, and rest assured that you will receive the fixed mice as soon as they are available.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



And the one Amazon review (obviously not a fanboy)

< http://www.amazon.co.uk/WarMous....&sr=8-1 >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
build quality not good enough, 13 July 2010
By  Giacomo Lacava (Manchester, United Kingdom) - See all my reviews

This review is from: WarMouse Meta Laser Joystick Gaming Mouse 5600 DPI
It's an interesting concept, obviously it will take a while to get used to it and customize it to my needs.
Unfortunately, build quality is not good. The wheel feels half-broken, and the larger keys don't "click" on the entire surface -- common issues on low-end mice, but this is not supposed to be low-end.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: Henry J on Sep. 13 2010,13:45



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
It's just a matter of time before somebody posts about the link between The Need for Bigger Mice
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Or gerbils?
Posted by: Richardthughes on Sep. 26 2010,17:14

must be a wingnut thang:

< http://gribbitonline.com/gribbitisms/ >

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2008/03/lexicology.html >
Posted by: Richardthughes on Sep. 26 2010,17:55

Quote (Beelzebub667 @ July 28 2010,06:19)
That image reminds me of one suspicion I've always had about VD.  Beyond the first impression of developed biceps, you start to realize due to the proportion of head and body to arm, you're looking at a very, very small man.  I've seen guys like this in the gym and they're always about 5'1''.  VD fits the Napoleon complex to a t.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


< http://rantingroom.blogspot.com/2007/09/vox-day-and-me-part-12.html >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
So after all of this build up, then, we're back to the original question: what is Vox Day really like?

Short.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: Ftk on Sep. 26 2010,20:07

Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 26 2010,17:55)
Quote (Beelzebub667 @ July 28 2010,06:19)
That image reminds me of one suspicion I've always had about VD.  Beyond the first impression of developed biceps, you start to realize due to the proportion of head and body to arm, you're looking at a very, very small man.  I've seen guys like this in the gym and they're always about 5'1''.  VD fits the Napoleon complex to a t.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


< http://rantingroom.blogspot.com/2007/09/vox-day-and-me-part-12.html >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
So after all of this build up, then, we're back to the original question: what is Vox Day really like?

Short.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Enlightening blog post.  I've been trying to figure Vox out for years.  From post to post, I either want to hug him or freaking punch his lights out.
Posted by: Wolfhound on Sep. 27 2010,01:10

Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 26 2010,18:55)
Quote (Beelzebub667 @ July 28 2010,06:19)
That image reminds me of one suspicion I've always had about VD.  Beyond the first impression of developed biceps, you start to realize due to the proportion of head and body to arm, you're looking at a very, very small man.  I've seen guys like this in the gym and they're always about 5'1''.  VD fits the Napoleon complex to a t.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


< http://rantingroom.blogspot.com/2007/09/vox-day-and-me-part-12.html >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
So after all of this build up, then, we're back to the original question: what is Vox Day really like?

Short.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Well, that would explain why he hates women so much.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Sep. 27 2010,03:27

Quote (Ftk @ Sep. 26 2010,20:07)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 26 2010,17:55)
Quote (Beelzebub667 @ July 28 2010,06:19)
That image reminds me of one suspicion I've always had about VD.  Beyond the first impression of developed biceps, you start to realize due to the proportion of head and body to arm, you're looking at a very, very small man.  I've seen guys like this in the gym and they're always about 5'1''.  VD fits the Napoleon complex to a t.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


< http://rantingroom.blogspot.com/2007/09/vox-day-and-me-part-12.html >

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
So after all of this build up, then, we're back to the original question: what is Vox Day really like?

Short.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Enlightening blog post.  I've been trying to figure Vox out for years.  From post to post, I either want to hug him or freaking punch his lights out.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Vox Day - Alpha Midget! :-)
Posted by: Robin on Sep. 27 2010,14:08

Quote (Wolfhound @ Sep. 27 2010,01:10)

---------------------QUOTE-------------------




---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 26 2010,18:55)
Quote (Beelzebub667 @ July 28 2010,06:19)
That image reminds me of one suspicion I've always had about VD.  Beyond the first impression of developed biceps, you start to realize due to the proportion of head and body to arm, you're looking at a very, very small man.  I've seen guys like this in the gym and they're always about 5'1''.  VD fits the Napoleon complex to a t.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


< http://rantingroom.blogspot.com/2007/09/vox-day-and-me-part-12.html >

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
So after all of this build up, then, we're back to the original question: what is Vox Day really like?

Short.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Well, that would explain why he hates women so much.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Short guys generally hate women?
Posted by: Badger3k on Oct. 01 2010,00:35

Quote (Robin @ Sep. 27 2010,14:08)
[quote=Wolfhound,Sep. 27 2010,01:10][/quote]


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 26 2010,18:55)
 
Quote (Beelzebub667 @ July 28 2010,06:19)
That image reminds me of one suspicion I've always had about VD.  Beyond the first impression of developed biceps, you start to realize due to the proportion of head and body to arm, you're looking at a very, very small man.  I've seen guys like this in the gym and they're always about 5'1''.  VD fits the Napoleon complex to a t.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


< http://rantingroom.blogspot.com/2007/09/vox-day-and-me-part-12.html >

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
So after all of this build up, then, we're back to the original question: what is Vox Day really like?

Short.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Well, that would explain why he hates women so much.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Short guys generally hate women?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


They probably have a bigger penis than Teddy.  

Have you seen his latest blame-the-victim post?

< Gay Rights Killed Clementi >.

It wasn't the roommate that caused his suicide, it was gay rights.

Gah - I actually read part of that crap.  Holy shit, he's even more fucked up than I thought.  Colleges are too tolerant, and Clementi couldn't stand the thought of people seeing him submit to his "evil desires".  

Teddy, stick to broken mice, and leave the deep thinking to those with actual working brains.  Please.
Posted by: fnxtr on Oct. 01 2010,01:17

Quote (Badger3k @ Sep. 30 2010,22:35)
Have you seen his latest blame-the-victim post?

< Gay Rights Killed Clementi >.

It wasn't the roommate that caused his suicide, it was gay rights.

Gah - I actually read part of that crap.  Holy shit, he's even more fucked up than I thought.  Colleges are too tolerant, and Clementi couldn't stand the thought of people seeing him submit to his "evil desires".  

Teddy, stick to broken mice, and leave the deep thinking to those with actual working brains.  Please.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Couldn't possibly be homo-in-denial self-loathing, now, could it.
Posted by: oldmanintheskydidntdoit on Oct. 01 2010,03:08

Quote (fnxtr @ Oct. 01 2010,01:17)
Quote (Badger3k @ Sep. 30 2010,22:35)
Have you seen his latest blame-the-victim post?

< Gay Rights Killed Clementi >.

It wasn't the roommate that caused his suicide, it was gay rights.

Gah - I actually read part of that crap.  Holy shit, he's even more fucked up than I thought.  Colleges are too tolerant, and Clementi couldn't stand the thought of people seeing him submit to his "evil desires".  

Teddy, stick to broken mice, and leave the deep thinking to those with actual working brains.  Please.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Couldn't possibly be homo-in-denial self-loathing, now, could it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Perhaps worse then the post itself are the comments....
Posted by: fnxtr on Oct. 01 2010,08:59

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Oct. 01 2010,01:08)
Quote (fnxtr @ Oct. 01 2010,01:17)
Quote (Badger3k @ Sep. 30 2010,22:35)
Have you seen his latest blame-the-victim post?

< Gay Rights Killed Clementi >.

It wasn't the roommate that caused his suicide, it was gay rights.

Gah - I actually read part of that crap.  Holy shit, he's even more fucked up than I thought.  Colleges are too tolerant, and Clementi couldn't stand the thought of people seeing him submit to his "evil desires".  

Teddy, stick to broken mice, and leave the deep thinking to those with actual working brains.  Please.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Couldn't possibly be homo-in-denial self-loathing, now, could it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Perhaps worse then the post itself are the comments....
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Just sayin'. Anyone with that big a chip has got some issues.  Sorry if the expression was out of line.
Posted by: Beelzebub667 on Oct. 25 2010,07:16

Announcing my new blog, < Anti-Voxination >.

Check it out.  And, no, I'm not obsessing.  There is no need for intervention.  There is no need to adjust your television.  Catch it before it becomes a collector's item, because it's only going to last as long as it doesn't bore me, which will probably be about a month.

PS I'll soon post an endorsement and link to here too.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Oct. 25 2010,09:01

Quote (Beelzebub667 @ Oct. 25 2010,07:16)
Announcing my new blog, < Anti-Voxination >.

Check it out.  And, no, I'm not obsessing.  There is no need for intervention.  There is no need to adjust your television.  Catch it before it becomes a collector's item, because it's only going to last as long as it doesn't bore me, which will probably be about a month.

PS I'll soon post an endorsement and link to here too.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Popped in and left comments - didn't show up. Don't tell me you've got moderation on..
Posted by: Beelzebub667 on Oct. 25 2010,16:59

Oops.  I'll fix that.  I have on the WordPress defaults, whatever they are.
Posted by: sledgehammer on Oct. 25 2010,18:12

Mine went through (in the "design" topic), but you have to open the topic (click on the header) to see the comments.  It looks like the underline on the "leave comments" goes away if a comment has been left.  Pretty clunky, but IANABlogger.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Nov. 20 2010,22:34

Congratulations, Vox. You (barely) made the top 100:
< http://americanloons.blogspot.com/2010/11/99-vox-day-and-his-dad.html >
Posted by: MadPanda, FCD on Nov. 21 2010,16:50

You make that sound like an achievement...which it is, perhaps, in the same sense as being a common courtesan in the House of Lycus.

Did a funny thing happen on the way to the online forum?

:D

The MadPanda, FCD
Posted by: the_ignored on Dec. 29 2010,06:18

Wow.  < This > is coming from the guy who defends maritial and date rape?

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
In case you're still not convinced of the moral and intellectual bankruptcy of atheism, consider this list of what atheists believe to be "the big guns" of the best atheist quotes.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------




Now, some holy spirit-inspired < modesty >:

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
First, if I only limited myself to those of my intellectual weight class, I'd have to ignore nearly everyone.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: MadPanda, FCD on Dec. 29 2010,09:32

Maybe it's only immoral if someone who doesn't worship his imaginary friend does it.

(eyeroll)

I bet he pulled that list (whatever it is--I'M not gonna risk brain cells reading this punk's vomit) out of his favorite clergyman's gastrointestinal tract with his teeth.


The MadPanda, FCD
Posted by: Tracy P. Hamilton on Dec. 29 2010,10:44

Quote (the_ignored @ Dec. 29 2010,06:18)
Wow.  < This > is coming from the guy who defends maritial and date rape?

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
In case you're still not convinced of the moral and intellectual bankruptcy of atheism, consider this list of what atheists believe to be "the big guns" of the best atheist quotes.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------




Now, some holy spirit-inspired < modesty >:

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
First, if I only limited myself to those of my intellectual weight class, I'd have to ignore nearly everyone.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


---------------------QUOTE-------------------


True, most people and bags of hammers are smarter than Vox day.
Posted by: carlsonjok on Dec. 29 2010,11:01

Meanwhile, in other Vox Day news:

< Warmouse still sucks. > (Read the comments.)
Posted by: J-Dog on Dec. 29 2010,11:22

Quote (carlsonjok @ Dec. 29 2010,11:01)
Meanwhile, in other Vox Day news:

< Warmouse still sucks. > (Read the comments.)
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Perhaps a puppet could report that their mouse is totally slow, and because of bad design, will not process correct evolutionary information. :)
Posted by: the_ignored on Dec. 30 2010,11:01

What the hell?  Shouldn't < this > tell you something?

Check his comment at 12/30/10 5:38 AM


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
The whole reason I have not presented many public arguments for theism or Christianity is that I am not satisfied with their soundness yet.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: MadPanda, FCD on Dec. 30 2010,12:19

(spit-take)

(laugh)

Oh, that's beautiful!  He can't find a sound argument to support his own One Chosen Truth (tm pat pend)?  And yet people who disagree with him, including those to state that the arguments for his side lack soundness, are idiots and fools?

What a maroon.  Get in the sack, boyo!


The MadPanda, FCD
Posted by: the_ignored on Jan. 03 2011,07:05

Gotta love that xian "morality" < on display >.



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
As I have repeatedly explained to the sort of maleducated overestimator of his own intelligence that actually believes that there is a genuine dilemma to be found in Euthyphro, the essence of morality is, and has always been, God's Game, God's Rules. Therefore, no God = no Rules.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Yep, he's confirmed once again, that for xian, nothing counts as a reson to be moral (not the pain and suffering of others, the consequences for society in general, etc) nothing but that sky-daddy watching over them.

All "no god" means, is that we're left to devise our own rules.

And to think, that his post is entitled the "amoral essence of atheism"?

Man, I hope people like him never deconvert.
Posted by: olegt on Jan. 03 2011,08:20

Vox and I are having fun: < Religious fitness and science education >. Starting at 1/1/11 11:58 AM.
Posted by: sledgehammer on Jan. 03 2011,18:49

Quote (olegt @ Jan. 03 2011,06:20)
Vox and I are having fun: < Religious fitness and science education >. Starting at 1/1/11 11:58 AM.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


What happened to the comments?  I was reading them at lunch, and when I got home, they all disappeared. Is it operator error, or did they just dis-apparate?  If the latter, somebody must have said something unretractable?
Posted by: olegt on Jan. 04 2011,06:51

Apparently, < coComment > is down. See < this >.
Posted by: the_ignored on Jan. 04 2011,09:55

Quote (olegt @ Jan. 03 2011,08:20)
Vox and I are having fun: < Religious fitness and science education >. Starting at 1/1/11 11:58 AM.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I like how the man's wife (spacebunny) is sticking up for him, even though he's such a misogynistic little prick.  

Can anyone here explain that?
Posted by: the_ignored on Jan. 04 2011,10:09

Wow, the man accuses olegt of "reading comprehension problems"?

He should remember the trouble he had with < this >, from his blog entry< here >?

(forgive the crosspost)
Posted by: Louis on Jan. 04 2011,10:52

Quote (the_ignored @ Jan. 04 2011,15:55)
Quote (olegt @ Jan. 03 2011,08:20)
Vox and I are having fun: < Religious fitness and science education >. Starting at 1/1/11 11:58 AM.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I like how the man's wife (spacebunny) is sticking up for him, even though he's such a misogynistic little prick.  

Can anyone here explain that?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Stockholm Syndrome? Love blinds us to many flaws? The fallacy of prior investment?

Louis
Posted by: khan on Jan. 04 2011,11:02

Quote (Louis @ Jan. 04 2011,11:52)
Quote (the_ignored @ Jan. 04 2011,15:55)
Quote (olegt @ Jan. 03 2011,08:20)
Vox and I are having fun: < Religious fitness and science education >. Starting at 1/1/11 11:58 AM.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I like how the man's wife (spacebunny) is sticking up for him, even though he's such a misogynistic little prick.  

Can anyone here explain that?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Stockholm Syndrome? Love blinds us to many flaws? The fallacy of prior investment?

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


AKA: "Throwing good money after bad"?
Posted by: Tracy P. Hamilton on Jan. 04 2011,14:22

Quote (olegt @ Jan. 04 2011,06:51)
Apparently, < coComment > is down. See < this >.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Is that website hosted by a PC with the Warmouse?
Posted by: Badger3k on Jan. 04 2011,22:50

Quote (Louis @ Jan. 04 2011,10:52)
Quote (the_ignored @ Jan. 04 2011,15:55)
Quote (olegt @ Jan. 03 2011,08:20)
Vox and I are having fun: < Religious fitness and science education >. Starting at 1/1/11 11:58 AM.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I like how the man's wife (spacebunny) is sticking up for him, even though he's such a misogynistic little prick.  

Can anyone here explain that?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Stockholm Syndrome? Love blinds us to many flaws? The fallacy of prior investment?

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I think it's more related to either the "battered wife" syndrome (or the related "If I love him enough he will change" variant, maybe it's the same) or the "I was raised in an authoritarian household and learned to support my husband (my better) since he is Always Right as the God-Ordained Master of the House and of Women.

(makes me sick to think like that...)

Delusions and indoctrination can run deep.
Posted by: fnxtr on Jan. 04 2011,23:32

Quote (the_ignored @ Jan. 04 2011,07:55)
Quote (olegt @ Jan. 03 2011,08:20)
Vox and I are having fun: < Religious fitness and science education >. Starting at 1/1/11 11:58 AM.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I like how the man's wife (spacebunny) is sticking up for him, even though he's such a misogynistic little prick.  

Can anyone here explain that?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Listening to too much Tammy Wynette.
Posted by: carlsonjok on Jan. 05 2011,04:27

Quote (fnxtr @ Jan. 04 2011,23:32)
Quote (the_ignored @ Jan. 04 2011,07:55)
Quote (olegt @ Jan. 03 2011,08:20)
Vox and I are having fun: < Religious fitness and science education >. Starting at 1/1/11 11:58 AM.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I like how the man's wife (spacebunny) is sticking up for him, even though he's such a misogynistic little prick.  

Can anyone here explain that?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Listening to too much Tammy Wynette.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


And not enough Loretta Lynn.
Posted by: Louis on Jan. 05 2011,05:19

Quote (Badger3k @ Jan. 05 2011,04:50)
Quote (Louis @ Jan. 04 2011,10:52)
Quote (the_ignored @ Jan. 04 2011,15:55)
 
Quote (olegt @ Jan. 03 2011,08:20)
Vox and I are having fun: < Religious fitness and science education >. Starting at 1/1/11 11:58 AM.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I like how the man's wife (spacebunny) is sticking up for him, even though he's such a misogynistic little prick.  

Can anyone here explain that?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Stockholm Syndrome? Love blinds us to many flaws? The fallacy of prior investment?

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I think it's more related to either the "battered wife" syndrome (or the related "If I love him enough he will change" variant, maybe it's the same) or the "I was raised in an authoritarian household and learned to support my husband (my better) since he is Always Right as the God-Ordained Master of the House and of Women.

(makes me sick to think like that...)

Delusions and indoctrination can run deep.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I agree with everything you said, especially the part about it making one feel sick.

But then it's okay, the sickness goes away when you realise that women aren't really proper people delicate flowers and don't have thoughts or feelings like those of men, and thus can be abused and exploited protected and asked to do things obediently (but respectfully) whenever one feels like it because God says so.

Did I get that right? Can any of the more frothing Jesus freaks tell me?

Louis
Posted by: Richardthughes on Jan. 10 2011,09:04

"Spacebunny" is now deleting Oleg's posts. I'm surprised Vox gave her moderation privellages - she's not exactly a shining light over there, and she has a vajayjay! On the 'puter and not in the kitchen? Gordon E Mullings would never stand for that!

Perhaps it's a defense mechanism? -
If Vox doesn't like how things are going he dispatches Spacebunny to slow things down with pointless questions that must be answered on pain of deletion. You can tell she was getting arsey, she started calling Oleg "Dear". And clutching her pearls, probably.
Posted by: olegt on Jan. 10 2011,09:16

Yes, on the < thread dedicated to your humble servant >, Spacebunny went into a temper tantrum, demanded that I define the terms science and scientist (scroll down for her 1/10/11 7:54 AM comment), and promised to delete my further comments until I do so (8:07 AM and 8:08 AM).

I have < previously told her > (1/1/11 6:46 PM) that I am not interested in having any serious conversations with her because her comments are heavy on insults and devoid of interesting thoughts. I see no reason to change that assessment and so I told her. The comment was deleted and subsequent comments are not even showing up.

So, it's safe to say that I have been banned by a space bunny. That's a first for me.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Jan. 10 2011,09:46

I tolds Spacebunny you don't want to interact with her:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Yeah, he doesn't actually get to decide that (not to mention that he has when it suits him, but when confronted he runs - pathetic). And if he can't follow the rules of this blog that is his choice. I have absolutely zero respect for him from his earlier inanity - after all, he didn't win this particular award for his brilliance.
Last edited by Spacebunny at 1/10/11 9:42 AMQuote

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Emphasis mine.
Posted by: Alan Fox on Jan. 10 2011,10:59

Quote (Richardthughes @ Jan. 10 2011,04:46)
I tolds Spacebunny you don't want to interact with her:

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Yeah, he doesn't actually get to decide that (not to mention that he has when it suits him, but when confronted he runs - pathetic). And if he can't follow the rules of this blog that is his choice. I have absolutely zero respect for him from his earlier inanity - after all, he didn't win this particular award for his brilliance.
Last edited by Spacebunny at 1/10/11 9:42 AMQuote

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Emphasis mine.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Jesus there are some crazy folks out there! I admire your forbearance, Rich, in the face of so much wilful (sic) ignorance. Oleg, too! But does this guy VD have any credibility beyond his personal blog?
Posted by: Richardthughes on Jan. 10 2011,11:01

Quote (Alan Fox @ Jan. 10 2011,10:59)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Jan. 10 2011,04:46)
I tolds Spacebunny you don't want to interact with her:

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Yeah, he doesn't actually get to decide that (not to mention that he has when it suits him, but when confronted he runs - pathetic). And if he can't follow the rules of this blog that is his choice. I have absolutely zero respect for him from his earlier inanity - after all, he didn't win this particular award for his brilliance.
Last edited by Spacebunny at 1/10/11 9:42 AMQuote

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Emphasis mine.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Jesus there are some crazy folks out there! I admire your forbearance, Rich, in the face of so much wilful (sic) ignorance. Oleg, too! But does this guy VD have any credibility beyond his personal blog?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


That depends on which reality you subscribe to, Alan. (Happy New year BTW, my friend). He's certainly got a devoted but small following of very right wing christian types.
Posted by: olegt on Jan. 10 2011,11:04

Teh bunneh attempts to justify teh ban and teh name calling:


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Yes, because on a previous thread he was called on the carpet for being an idiot. It's not ad hom if it's backed up and it was. He is unable (not unwilling as he claims) to defend his position. I have absolutely zero regard for someone's claim of superiority who not only can not express himself with out several errors in logic, but proudly proclaims that logic and reason are not necessary to science (small wonder he would claim this since he is incapable of recognizing it much less utilizing it as has been demonstrated repeatedly on this blog).
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



How cute!
Posted by: Richardthughes on Jan. 10 2011,11:04

Apparently Oleg, it's your fault for engaging her some of the time.
Posted by: olegt on Jan. 10 2011,11:06

Quote (Richardthughes @ Jan. 10 2011,11:04)
Apparently Oleg, it's your fault for engaging her some of the time.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


That was no engaging, Rich. Just gentle poking.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Jan. 10 2011,11:32

"Longstreet" is a fan of yours, Oleg:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
That's too bad. I'd seen olegt's arrogant assholery before, at Telic Thoughts. But he was never as funny there as he has been here. Still, nobody's fault but his own.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: the_ignored on Jan. 10 2011,15:04

HuH?  Olegt's "arrogant assholery"?  Do they not bloody read what Vox < puts out >?



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
First, if I only limited myself to those of my intellectual weight class, I'd have to ignore nearly everyone.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Dont' his syophants realize that he's zinging them as well?  Or do they all consider themselves to be in his "intellectual weight class"?

Then there's the man's posts about rape, that we all know about.

WTF is wrong with them?
Posted by: khan on Jan. 10 2011,15:21

Quote (the_ignored @ Jan. 10 2011,16:04)
HuH?  Olegt's "arrogant assholery"?  Do they not bloody read what Vox < puts out >?

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
First, if I only limited myself to those of my intellectual weight class, I'd have to ignore nearly everyone.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Dont' his syophants realize that he's zinging them as well?  Or do they all consider themselves to be in his "intellectual weight class"?

Then there's the man's posts about rape, that we all know about.

WTF is wrong with them?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


~Twould be a long list.
Posted by: Badger3k on Jan. 10 2011,18:02

Quote (the_ignored @ Jan. 10 2011,15:04)
HuH?  Olegt's "arrogant assholery"?  Do they not bloody read what Vox < puts out >?

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
First, if I only limited myself to those of my intellectual weight class, I'd have to ignore nearly everyone.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Dont' his syophants realize that he's zinging them as well?  Or do they all consider themselves to be in his "intellectual weight class"?

Then there's the man's posts about rape, that we all know about.

WTF is wrong with them?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


They are in his "intellectual weight class" - it's just that it isn't as high as they like to think.
Posted by: MadPanda, FCD on Jan. 10 2011,18:08

Quote (Badger3k @ Jan. 10 2011,18:02)
Quote (the_ignored @ Jan. 10 2011,15:04)
HuH?  Olegt's "arrogant assholery"?  Do they not bloody read what Vox < puts out >?

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
First, if I only limited myself to those of my intellectual weight class, I'd have to ignore nearly everyone.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Dont' his syophants realize that he's zinging them as well?  Or do they all consider themselves to be in his "intellectual weight class"?

Then there's the man's posts about rape, that we all know about.

WTF is wrong with them?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


They are in his "intellectual weight class" - it's just that it isn't as high as they like to think.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


That's it exactly, Blackadder!

Remember: it's only arrogant and immoral if it's done by people who don't worship VD's imaginary friend.  (I leave the obvious jokes concerning the initials of this poor lad's handle to the more sadistic members of our community.)


The MadPanda, FCD
Posted by: Badger3k on Jan. 10 2011,18:20

Quote (MadPanda, FCD @ Jan. 10 2011,18:08)
Quote (Badger3k @ Jan. 10 2011,18:02)
Quote (the_ignored @ Jan. 10 2011,15:04)
HuH?  Olegt's "arrogant assholery"?  Do they not bloody read what Vox < puts out >?

   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
First, if I only limited myself to those of my intellectual weight class, I'd have to ignore nearly everyone.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Dont' his syophants realize that he's zinging them as well?  Or do they all consider themselves to be in his "intellectual weight class"?

Then there's the man's posts about rape, that we all know about.

WTF is wrong with them?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


They are in his "intellectual weight class" - it's just that it isn't as high as they like to think.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


That's it exactly, Blackadder!

Remember: it's only arrogant and immoral if it's done by people who don't worship VD's imaginary friend.  (I leave the obvious jokes concerning the initials of this poor lad's handle to the more sadistic members of our community.)


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I've heard that VD causes itching and a rash...is that what happens when you read him?

Yeah, I know, about as lame as VD himself, but it's the best I could come up with.

Although I tried to come up with the "cunning as a fox" bit of Baldrick, the best I can make is a comment asking if his followers like Turnips?
Posted by: Richardthughes on Jan. 12 2011,12:06

Vox Day cites Telic Thoughts:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2011/01/science-reason-in-action.html >
Posted by: MadPanda, FCD on Jan. 12 2011,12:28

Quote (Badger3k @ Jan. 10 2011,18:20)
Quote (MadPanda @ FCD,Jan. 10 2011,18:08)
Quote (Badger3k @ Jan. 10 2011,18:02)
 
Quote (the_ignored @ Jan. 10 2011,15:04)
HuH?  Olegt's "arrogant assholery"?  Do they not bloody read what Vox < puts out >?

   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
First, if I only limited myself to those of my intellectual weight class, I'd have to ignore nearly everyone.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Dont' his syophants realize that he's zinging them as well?  Or do they all consider themselves to be in his "intellectual weight class"?

Then there's the man's posts about rape, that we all know about.

WTF is wrong with them?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


They are in his "intellectual weight class" - it's just that it isn't as high as they like to think.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


That's it exactly, Blackadder!

Remember: it's only arrogant and immoral if it's done by people who don't worship VD's imaginary friend.  (I leave the obvious jokes concerning the initials of this poor lad's handle to the more sadistic members of our community.)


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I've heard that VD causes itching and a rash...is that what happens when you read him?

Yeah, I know, about as lame as VD himself, but it's the best I could come up with.

Although I tried to come up with the "cunning as a fox" bit of Baldrick, the best I can make is a comment asking if his followers like Turnips?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I'd have referenced Baldrick, but let's face it: Baldrick is at least a magnitude above VD when it comes to essential likability and decency.  Like George, he's simply incapable of being wicked, evil, or nasty...whatever the provocation.

If I must compare real people to the various incarnations of the Black Adder, I prefer to think of VD as Captain Darling, who (when all was said and done) turned out to be a rather prissy stuffed-shirt of a coward.

VD probably thinks of himself as Lord Flashheart.


The MadPanda, FCD


(Apologies to Mr. McInnery, Mr. Robinson, Mr. Mayall, Mr. Atkinson, Mr. Laurie, Mr. Fry...)
Posted by: paragwinn on Jan. 12 2011,12:53

Quote (Richardthughes @ Jan. 12 2011,12:06)
Vox Day cites Telic Thoughts:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2011/01/science-reason-in-action.html >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You mean he actually relies on someone else's first-approximation analysis without going to the source himself?
Posted by: Richardthughes on Jan. 12 2011,13:30

Quote (paragwinn @ Jan. 12 2011,12:53)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Jan. 12 2011,12:06)
Vox Day cites Telic Thoughts:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2011/01/science-reason-in-action.html >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You mean he actually relies on someone else's first-approximation analysis without going to the source himself?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


He's had a bee in his bonnet about PZ for a while now.
Posted by: sledgehammer on Jan. 12 2011,17:21

Quote (Richardthughes @ Jan. 12 2011,11:30)
 
Quote (paragwinn @ Jan. 12 2011,12:53)
 
Quote (Richardthughes @ Jan. 12 2011,12:06)
Vox Day cites Telic Thoughts:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2011/01/science-reason-in-action.html >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You mean he actually relies on someone else's first-approximation analysis without going to the source himself?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


He's had a bee in his bonnet about PZ for a while now.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


What's not to hate?  PZ's an atheist, PZ's blog is much more popular than Beale's, and PZ's sycophants are much more entertaining than Teddy's.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Jan. 13 2011,16:05

science champion wanted:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2011/01/science-champion-wanted.html >
Posted by: olegt on Jan. 14 2011,07:41

Quote (Richardthughes @ Jan. 13 2011,16:05)
science champion wanted:

< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2011/01/science-champion-wanted.html >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------




---------------------QUOTE-------------------
< UPDATE >: We have several volunteers, two of whom stand out in particular. Matt is a Scienceblogger and PhD candidate for a degree in Physics, while 445supermag is a Senior Research Scientist with 15 published papers ranging from biophysics to quantum chemistry. Matt has suggested that the dialogue include both of them, seeing as they represent different disciplines within science, and I tend to agree with him. I think they will both make for excellent Speakers for Science, but feel free to share your opinon on the matter.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



That's Matt Springer, a grad student in physics at Texas A&M and the author of Scienceblog < Built on Facts >.

We'll cheer you on, Matt.
Posted by: olegt on Jan. 15 2011,12:44

The post opening the discussion does not look promising:


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
< Whether science is self-correcting >

It is said that science is self-correcting.  For to be accepted, new ideas must survive the most rigorous standards of evidence and scrutiny, according to the Cosmologist.  And yet, it is also said that life itself is an error-correcting process, as well as an error-making one.  Since science is not entirely unrelated to life, this raises the obvious question of what the material differences distinguishing science from life and scientific self-correction from life's intrinsic error-correcting process might happen to be.

But let us be patient and attempt to limit ourselves to one issue at a time.  What is science and what distinguishes it from life?

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



So that's the starting question. What distinguishes science from life?
Posted by: Jim_Wynne on Jan. 15 2011,12:49

Quote (olegt @ Jan. 15 2011,12:44)
So that's the starting question. What distinguishes science from life?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I'm not much of a philosopher, but I think it's pretty much the same thing that distinguishes science from double-hung windows and my sister's blue car.
Posted by: Badger3k on Jan. 15 2011,13:36

Quote (olegt @ Jan. 15 2011,12:44)
The post opening the discussion does not look promising:


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
< Whether science is self-correcting >

It is said that science is self-correcting.  For to be accepted, new ideas must survive the most rigorous standards of evidence and scrutiny, according to the Cosmologist.  And yet, it is also said that life itself is an error-correcting process, as well as an error-making one.  Since science is not entirely unrelated to life, this raises the obvious question of what the material differences distinguishing science from life and scientific self-correction from life's intrinsic error-correcting process might happen to be.

But let us be patient and attempt to limit ourselves to one issue at a time.  What is science and what distinguishes it from life?

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



So that's the starting question. What distinguishes science from life?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


42?

Science isn't alive?

Fine Corinthian Leather?

Vox has life, but not science, and has no understanding of either?
Posted by: the_ignored on Jan. 15 2011,17:09

I gave him an email warning him to be careful of Vox's tricks:

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I understand that you're going to be taking part in a debate on Vox Day's blog (http://voxday.blogspot.com/2011/01/science-champion-wanted.html)?




I'd be careful. He is not above twisting people's words just to take a shot at science or anything else that he doesn't like.




One such example was discussed here:

(http://www.wearesmrt.com/bb/viewtopic.php?p=60057#p60057), in reference to Vox's post here:

(http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/07/science-vs-religion.html).
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



He thanked me in his reply and said that he'd be careful.  So far though, it's been clean over there he says.
Posted by: the_ignored on Jan. 16 2011,21:35

Hoo boy.  Here we go again.  When Beale isn't bragging about how smart he is, he's going on about < how stupid atheists are >.

Does that asshole not know the meaning of the words ad hom?

Even funnier, for that little bit of theistic social autism, he links to < an "unbiased" outside source >.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 21 2011,14:54

PZ should write a poem about butchering baby fetuses...< I'm sure he'd be great at it >.  

<shudders>  

???
Posted by: JohnW on Jan. 21 2011,15:09

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,12:54)
PZ should write a poem about butchering baby fetuses...< I'm sure he'd be great at it >.  

<shudders>  

???
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Baby fetuses?  As opposed to what?  Fully-grown fetuses?  Elderly ones?
Posted by: Richardthughes on Jan. 21 2011,15:09

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,14:54)
PZ should write a poem about butchering baby fetuses...< I'm sure he'd be great at it >.  

<shudders>  

???
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Go tell him at Pharyngula.
Posted by: JohnW on Jan. 21 2011,15:40

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,12:54)
PZ should write a poem about butchering baby fetuses
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


There was a baby fetus named Fred
Who was butchered by naughty P.Zed
Vox Day said "The fiend!"
FTK said "He's teh mean!"
But he ate it with butter and bread.


Edited for speakers of American.  And because I like editing.
Posted by: carlsonjok on Jan. 21 2011,15:54

Quote (JohnW @ Jan. 21 2011,15:40)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,12:54)
PZ should write a poem about butchering baby fetuses
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


There was a baby fetus named Fred
Who was butchered by naughty P.Zed
Vox Day said "The fiend!"
FTK said "He's teh mean!"
But he ate it with butter and bread.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


There oughta be a law against that kinda thing!  

Babies are high enough in cholesterol by themselves. Slathering them in butter is just inviting a heart attack.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 21 2011,16:01

lol...u people are nuts.  

I can't go tell PZ, Rich, he banned my ass years ago.  He doesn't allow dissent.
Posted by: Texas Teach on Jan. 21 2011,16:10

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,16:01)
lol...u people are nuts.  

I can't go tell PZ, Rich, he banned my ass years ago.  He doesn't allow dissent.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


For anyone new to the world of FtK, "dissent" translates into English as < "Overwhelming creepiness" >
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 21 2011,16:13

Rich writes over at Vox's blog:

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
"If an organism is capable of independent existence, it is alive. (This is why abortion of a fetus is not killing, it is not alive)"
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Gawd.....are u serious?  Hell, a 3 yr old can't even exist independently.  Leave them alone and unless they are *very* lucky, they'll perish without support of adults.  What about the handicapped, elderly, etc., etc..  You did hear about the Philadelphia abortionist in the news the other day?  He killed serveral after delivery by putting a scissors in their necks.  Now, PZ would have no problem with this, but I HOPE that you would Rich.  You need to think, boy.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 21 2011,16:26

Quote (Texas Teach @ Jan. 21 2011,16:10)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,16:01)
lol...u people are nuts.  

I can't go tell PZ, Rich, he banned my ass years ago.  He doesn't allow dissent.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


For anyone new to the world of FtK, "dissent" translates into English as < "Overwhelming creepiness" >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


lol..and that is a complement coming from PZ.  His description of creepy is anyone elses description of normal, moral human being.  I think it's great being on his shit list.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Jan. 21 2011,16:28

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,16:13)
Rich writes over at Vox's blog:

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
"If an organism is capable of independent existence, it is alive. (This is why abortion of a fetus is not killing, it is not alive)"
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Gawd.....are u serious?  Hell, a 3 yr old can't even exist independently.  Leave them alone and unless they are *very* lucky, they'll perish without support of adults.  What about the handicapped, elderly, etc., etc..  You did hear about the Philadelphia abortionist in the news the other day?  He killed serveral after delivery by putting a scissors in their necks.  Now, PZ would have no problem with this, but I HOPE that you would Rich.  You need to think, boy.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


1.. that's a bit of a quote mine
2.. they're not my words, I was quoting someone else.


Old habbits die hard, eh FtK?
Posted by: oldmanintheskydidntdoit on Jan. 21 2011,16:44

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,16:13)
Leave them alone and unless they are *very* lucky, they'll perish without support of adults.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


What level of luck is that?

Tornado in a junkyard luck?

Searching for proteins and finding one at random luck?

Coming up with a complex entity all at once all at random level of luck?

Global flood not killing everything level of luck?

Pah.
Posted by: JohnW on Jan. 21 2011,16:47

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,14:13)
You need to think, boy.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Wow.  Told to think by FTK.
Posted by: carlsonjok on Jan. 21 2011,16:50

Quote (JohnW @ Jan. 21 2011,16:47)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,14:13)
You need to think, boy.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Wow.  Told to think by FTK.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on Jan. 21 2011,16:51

Aaahh!!!

After Mabuse, JoeG, IBIG and all, FTK is like a brease of fresh sewer-scented air!

I almost missed her...
Posted by: Texas Teach on Jan. 21 2011,16:57

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 21 2011,16:51)
Aaahh!!!

After Mabuse, JoeG, IBIG and all, FTK is like a brease of fresh sewer-scented air!

I almost missed her...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Not to worry.  She'll flounce out again before long and you can try to start missing her all over again.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 21 2011,17:53

At < Weasel Zippers >

I gotta believe PZ posts this kind of shit for attention...I can't believe anyone can actually be as vile as he is.  But, then even posting it for attention is sick beyond belief.

"meat".....good Lord, he needs his head examined.  On the bright side though, from what I've read, Skatje has somewhat changed her stance on abortion. From hard core leftist thinking to actually having a heart about the issue.  Yeah for Skatje!  Maybe she should have left the nest a long time ago.
Posted by: Louis on Jan. 21 2011,18:26

Ahh the dog returneth to its vomit eh?

How have you been FTK?

Louis
Posted by: oldmanintheskydidntdoit on Jan. 21 2011,18:27

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,17:53)
But, then even posting it for attention is sick beyond belief.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Would you say it was more or less sick then him being sent the images in the first place?
Posted by: blipey on Jan. 21 2011,18:29

Ah, a flounce is needed!

You're welcome.

1.  Is it okay for ID proponents to post personal information of the internet?   < NO >

2.  Do you think that Wes and/or steve would not remove your personal information from the board if someone posted it?   <
No, I believe they would....that is why I was giving them the warning that someone may be listing personal information about me.
>

3.  Do you think that the Baylor curators and other officials post their home addresses and phone numbers to the internet?  < I have not checked into that so I do not know.  I would assume that most do not. >

4.  Why re you back posting here at AtBC?  < I believe I answered that on this page or the last page. >  checking the previous 3 pages, there is no answer from Ftk as regards this question.  There are however, many complaints about having to answer questions and the ridiculous expectations of such. –blipey

5.  How does Behe know what is in a group of books without ever having read the books?  < !!! This question is ridiculous.  Obviously, he wouldn't, and I'd have to ask Behe if he was every allowed to go through every book and article one by one and make two separate piles of what he had and had not read.  But, I tried desperately to explain in an earlier discussion that just because we have theories about how something *may have* occurred, that does not mean that all the questions have been answered nor should they be regarded as "fact". > I’m counting this one as answered because of the first sentence “obviously, he wouldn’t”.  That being said, the commentary after that phrase proves that she’ll never be able to answer question 6.  perhaps this is why she stopped answering questions. –blipey

6.  What is the point of the Behe/unread books discussion?

7.  According to ID Theory, how did the immune system develop?

8.  What is gained by jettisoning ToE and saying God did it?

9.  In the light of a science teacher teaching that the study of beetles is not a scientific effort and possibly that spiders evolved from insects (if evolution were true), how is ID theory driving kids toward science?

10. Why don't IDers pursue RESEARCH GRANTS, from the Templeton Foundation, for example?

11. Are you afraid to examine the sequence evidence for ToE?

11A.  Added.  Do you understand what sequence evidence is?

12. Where did Albatrossity2 claim that his students were religious freaks?

12A.  Added.  Where did blipey claim that his nephew's teacher was "a source of evil"?

13. Why don't IDers publish in PCID?

14. Why hasn't PCID been published in over two years?

15. Do you believe that Darwinists have kept PCID from being published?

16. How?

17. Can ID be called a theory when it hasn't made even one prediction?

18. Yes or no: ID wouldn't benefit from publishing any articles, anywhere.

19. Yes or no: Your children should be taught the historical insights of the Bhagavad Gita?

20. What sort of Waterloo can we look forward to on February 8, 2008? Nebraska banned the electric chair as the sole method of execution.  Did anything else happen?

Interesting side note. Just came across this comment back on page 102 where you berate people for not having read the pertinent books.  Which begs several more questions I'll put here.  Why is reading material important?  Do you think it might have been important for Behe to read some books before commenting on them?  Have you read the textbook that Albatrossity2 sent you?  Have you got that list of peer reviewed articles you've read ready to go?  Are you seriously arguing that we should read books and that IDers don't have to?

21. What are IDers doing to garner respect?

22. Given that you believe ID is science because of "design inference", why is ToE not science because all it has is inference?

23. Can any human being know what is contained in a book without having read the book?

24. If everyone died in the Flood, who wrote all the different stories down?

25. What year was the Flood over? 2300 BC, answer provided for Ftk by blipey

26. What year was the height of the Egyptian Empire? 2030 BC, answer provided by blipey

27. What was the population of the world in that year? 30,000,000, answer provided by blipey

28. How did 8 people (6 really) make that many people?


29. Is Dembski a creationist?

30. How would monogamous gays destroy heterosexual marriage?

31. How did Koalas get from Ararat to Australia?

32. Do you believe that the FLOOD is a scientifically tenable idea?  yes

33. Are the people who run Baylor Darwin Police?

34. Are those same people Baptist?

35. What does this mean?

36. Given that HIV cannot have evolved (Behe), which of the 8 (6 really) people on the ark were carrying HIV?

37. There are at least 40 distinct STDs. Were they distributed evenly among the passengers on Noah's ark, or was there like one Ultra-skank who had all 40?

38. Do you think that gravity is “just a theory” and therefore should be “taught critically” (to use the ID phrase)?

39. If not, what makes the details we don’t know about gravity different from the details we don’t know about evolution?

40. Do you believe Common Descent = Common Design?

41. Do you believe that Macroevolution = (not observed so did not happen)?

42. Despite the documented evidence, do you believe that macroevolution is based solely on historical inference?

43. Can you define macroevolution (in your own words)?

44. What evidence would confirm this?

45. Did God just make it look like the horse evolved, but in fact tinkered with the design along the way?

46.  Is the horse the only thing that evolved, but everything else is designed?

47. Given your statement that the idea of the Geologic Column was introduced by Darwinists after 1860, FtK, were the "periods" and "eras" added after 1860 "to fit the evolutionary theory"?

48. Or, since the early 19th century work by Smith, Cuvier, et al. led to the identification of the Geological Column in the 1820’s, were they (periods and eras) devised by creationists before 1860 to fit the evidence?

49.  Why is the Cambrian Explosion a problem for the Theory of Evolution?

50.  Did the Cambrian Explosion occur?

51.  If yes, can Walt Brown’s Hydroplate Theory still be valid?

edited for the grammars
Posted by: JohnW on Jan. 21 2011,18:39

Quote (blipey @ Jan. 21 2011,16:29)
14. Why hasn't PCID been published in over twofive years?

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Fixed that for you.
Quote (blipey @ Jan. 21 2011,16:29)
21. What are IDers doing to garner respect?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


See 14.
Posted by: blipey on Jan. 21 2011,18:43

Quote (JohnW @ Jan. 21 2011,18:39)
Quote (blipey @ Jan. 21 2011,16:29)
14. Why hasn't PCID been published in over twofive years?

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Fixed that for you.
 
Quote (blipey @ Jan. 21 2011,16:29)
21. What are IDers doing to garner respect?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


See 14.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I was contemplating that change, but thought I'd let it ride.  It subtly raises the point that not only could FTK not answer the questions when originally posed, but that over the next 3 years, this guardian of education hasn't bothered to learn anything.  Or even research anything.  Or be curious about anything.  Education indeed.
Posted by: MadPanda, FCD on Jan. 21 2011,18:48

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,16:01)
I can't go tell PZ, Rich, he banned my ass years ago.  He doesn't allow dissent.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The first sentence is true.  The second sentence is so obviously false that anyone with a working conscience must blush to see the accusation made: the troll was invited to leave for being trollish, not merely for dissenting.  (Hint: there are practicing Xians who have earned the OM designation, some of whom have been known to tell Dr. Myers that he's full of it.  Funny how they haven't been hit with the banhammer yet.)

So, FTK, since you seem to think that abortion is a bad thing, what mandatory minimum sentence would you embrace for women seeking to terminate problematic pregnancies?

You, Biggy, what's the difference?


The MadPanda, FCD
Posted by: JohnW on Jan. 21 2011,18:56

Quote (blipey @ Jan. 21 2011,16:43)
Quote (JohnW @ Jan. 21 2011,18:39)
 
Quote (blipey @ Jan. 21 2011,16:29)
14. Why hasn't PCID been published in over twofive years?

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Fixed that for you.
   
Quote (blipey @ Jan. 21 2011,16:29)
21. What are IDers doing to garner respect?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


See 14.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I was contemplating that change, but thought I'd let it ride.  It subtly raises the point that not only could FTK not answer the questions when originally posed, but that over the next 3 years, this guardian of education hasn't bothered to learn anything.  Or even research anything.  Or be curious about anything.  Education indeed.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I thought it was worth pointing out for relative newcomers who may not know the back-story of FTK and/or PCID.  I did it for the kids.
Posted by: blipey on Jan. 21 2011,19:01

Well played, sir; well played.
Posted by: the_ignored on Jan. 22 2011,10:17

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,17:53)
At < Weasel Zippers >

I gotta believe PZ posts this kind of shit for attention...I can't believe anyone can actually be as vile as he is.  But, then even posting it for attention is sick beyond belief.

"meat".....good Lord, he needs his head examined.  On the bright side though, from what I've read, Skatje has somewhat changed her stance on abortion. From hard core leftist thinking to actually having a heart about the issue.  Yeah for Skatje!  Maybe she should have left the nest a long time ago.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Let me guess:  You're one of those evangelicals who has no problem with the killing of pregnant women and babies as ordered by your god in the OT, nor with any spontaneous abortions that happen now, right?

Even Myers, as "vile" as you say he is, would not ever do anything like that.

Yet you still call yourself "pro-life"?

If I'm wrong about the above please let me know so that I may apologize.
Posted by: the_ignored on Jan. 22 2011,10:29

Looks like voxyboy is jumping onto that same so-called "< pro-life" bandwagon >.

My reply: at 1/22/11 10:24 AM


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Vox said:
It's probably a good thing he is an atheist without any moral standards, otherwise he might demonstrate at least a modicum of conscience for the bloody acts in which he appears to take such pride.
Right, coming from one of those who worships the same god who, in the OT, repeatedly had pregnant women and babies killed...

Yep. It's us atheists who have no moral standards.

Here's a tip, Theodore:  follow your own holy book's advice about taking the log out of your own eye before attending to the splinter in someone else's.


Gotta love that good ol' fashined xian moral absolutism!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: the_ignored on Jan. 23 2011,13:32

Well, I tried one long post, only to have it f**d up by "coo-coo comment" so I posted the following right after that in three small posts.  Totally kills the effect though, damnit!

Oh well.  

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Vox:
Easily. God's game, God's rules. The Creator sets the moral standard, He does not abide by it.
If so, then how can one make any judgements as to god's "morality" one way or the other?  If he does something that we consider evil, that isn't allowed to count, but when he does something we consider good, that's used as evidence that he's "holy" (whatever the hell that means!) or "good".  

You can't have it both ways.  What you describe is a fundamentally hypocritical being who refuses to follow the rules he sets for others.

What moral standard does he follow then, and how could you tell that he does?

Not being the Creator or the referee, you have no more standing to criticize who is or is not killed than a cornerback has to decide whether a flag is thrown for pass interference or not.
Well, one thing:  In sports one can see the action that one is arguing about whether it took place or not.  While we're talking about (supposed) physical actions, we're arguing about the morality of them.  

Analogy fail.


You'll notice that NFL coaches often stand on the field during a play, and yet no flags are ever thrown for 12 men on the field.
Usually those coaches aren't killing people though, unlike your god.  Get a better analogy.

Do you understand why there is no contradiction or hypocrisy there?
No, because there is.  It's a plain double-standard.

This isn't rocket science;...
No, it's religious apologetic gerrymandering, which is more twisted by far than any branch or application of the physical sciences.

...even an atheist should be able to grasp the analogy. And it is both ironic and ignorant for you to accuse a religious individual of being self-righteous; it is the atheist who actually claims to be self-righteous.
Wrong.  We just don't advocate mass genocide like your god does, and then run around pretending to be "pro-life".

If protesting genocide makes one self-righteous in your eyes, so be it.  Given your "moral" stances, especially on certain women's issues (later below) your opinion of me means less to me than used toilet paper.  Though like a certain poster here from another forum, it is fun to come in here every once in a while...

The Christian theological position is that no one is self-righteous, in fact, no one is even capable of being self-righteous, since they can only justified through Jesus Christ.
Actually, the Christian position is that no one is righteous, not "no one is self-righeous".  Self-righteous just describes an attitude.


By the way, what do you think Christ's opinions on rape would be, Theo?

Remember?
< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2009/08/there-is-no-marital-rape.html >
< http://voxday.blogspot.com/2005/11/rape-myth.html >

I somehow doubt that your friend PZ Myers would share your views on rape, so I guess that means that he's less "moral" than you?


So go ahead; demonize Myers and athiests in general for being "pro-choice" (even though not all of us are), and in your minds committing the murders of babies which your own god repeatedly does, and keep calling yourselves "moral".  That voxytoad, is true self-righteousness.


If what you say here (http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/09/amoral-essence-of-atheism.html), where if there is no God then there are no Rules, I have news for you:  It's xians like you who have no morals, not us.  Societies devise rules, gods or no gods.



Did your father's insanity get passed on to you or something?
< http://scienceblogs.com/deniali....s_j.php >

I'd feel sorry for you, being raised by that nutcase, but you're just as much of, if not worse, of a jackass then he ever was.  

Too bad you have an ego that's too big for your head.  All that talk about how smart you are, yet you have trouble designing a simple computer mouse?  Christ would be proud of your modesty, I'm sure!



To Spacebunny
Let's see:  Myers is cowardly is he?  He publishes a blog under his real name, with a picture and contact details.

What's your name, picture, and contact information, hmmm?  Remember:  You called him a coward.  Put your money where your mouth is, honey.

He also, despite your husband's prediction, publically desecrated a Koran, a cracker, and a copy of one of Dawkin's books. (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/the_great_desecration.php)

Vox's "prediction":  (http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=69524)

But the ecumenicality of Myers's willingness to commit sacrilege entirely beside the point, as what actually demonstrates the cowardly nature of this self-aggrandizing atheist is the fact that there is no chance that he will follow through on his anti-cracker threats now that it is clear there may be material consequences, however minor, to his actions
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,14:03

the ignored:

Hi...hey, I have an interesting book for you to read if you get the time.  I just started it recently, and I think you might get a kick out of it.  Something else you can rail about at least.  

It's titled "If God is Good...Faith in the Midst of Suffering and Evil".   Author is Randy Alcorn

It provides a different perspective...always good to consider both sides of any argument.

Pick it up at the library so you don't have to support the author by paying for it.  

Enjoy.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,14:06

Quote (Louis @ Jan. 21 2011,18:26)
Ahh the dog returneth to its vomit eh?

How have you been FTK?

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Hi Louis,

I've been well thanks...hope you and your little one are doing the same.  

Certainly looking forward to spring...cabin fever big time.  We had 9" of snow last week, and there are flurries again today.  Tired of it.  Wanna feel the sand in my toes...don't like boots...;)

Peace
Posted by: Dale_Husband on Jan. 23 2011,14:20

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,17:53)
At < Weasel Zippers >

I gotta believe PZ posts this kind of shit for attention...I can't believe anyone can actually be as vile as he is.  But, then even posting it for attention is sick beyond belief.

"meat".....good Lord, he needs his head examined.  On the bright side though, from what I've read, Skatje has somewhat changed her stance on abortion. From hard core leftist thinking to actually having a heart about the issue.  Yeah for Skatje!  Maybe she should have left the nest a long time ago.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


This, coming from someone who, along with Salvador Cordova, libeled Skatje by claiming she was promoting beastiality on her blog, when she was merely making a legal argument about why it should not be illegal. Having been libeled by a troll called Kris for similar reasons, I have absolutely no respect for your attitude, FTK. Your thinking the worst of people who have different values from you is just blind bigotry.
Posted by: Doc Bill on Jan. 23 2011,14:22



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
We had 9" of snow last week, and there are flurries again today.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Nine inches, eh?

(Sorry, Louis, it's just too obvious!  I just can't bring myself to do it.  Not on Wes' birfday!)

(That's what she said.)
Posted by: Dale_Husband on Jan. 23 2011,14:31

Quote (MadPanda @ FCD,Jan. 21 2011,18:48)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,16:01)
I can't go tell PZ, Rich, he banned my ass years ago.  He doesn't allow dissent.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The first sentence is true.  The second sentence is so obviously false that anyone with a working conscience must blush to see the accusation made: the troll was invited to leave for being trollish, not merely for dissenting.  (Hint: there are practicing Xians who have earned the OM designation, some of whom have been known to tell Dr. Myers that he's full of it.  Funny how they haven't been hit with the banhammer yet.)

So, FTK, since you seem to think that abortion is a bad thing, what mandatory minimum sentence would you embrace for women seeking to terminate problematic pregnancies?

You, Biggy, what's the difference?


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It seems that the issue for anti-abortion fanatics is that they see premarital sex as a sin and thus things like pregnancy and STDs for unmarried girls and women are a punishment for those who sin.

That, in my opinion, degrades the value of children as much as abortion does.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,15:24

Quote (Dale_Husband @ Jan. 23 2011,14:31)
Quote (MadPanda @ FCD,Jan. 21 2011,18:48)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,16:01)
I can't go tell PZ, Rich, he banned my ass years ago.  He doesn't allow dissent.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The first sentence is true.  The second sentence is so obviously false that anyone with a working conscience must blush to see the accusation made: the troll was invited to leave for being trollish, not merely for dissenting.  (Hint: there are practicing Xians who have earned the OM designation, some of whom have been known to tell Dr. Myers that he's full of it.  Funny how they haven't been hit with the banhammer yet.)

So, FTK, since you seem to think that abortion is a bad thing, what mandatory minimum sentence would you embrace for women seeking to terminate problematic pregnancies?

You, Biggy, what's the difference?


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It seems that the issue for anti-abortion fanatics is that they see premarital sex as a sin and thus things like pregnancy and STDs for unmarried girls and women are a punishment for those who sin.

That, in my opinion, degrades the value of children as much as abortion does.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


No, I would disagree that anti-abortion "fanatics" are *against abortion* because they know that premarital sex is a sin.  Nor, do I look at STD's as punishment.  Also, I might add that I, myself, was not a virgin when I married and looking back, I can see the value of being abstinent until marriage. Although, I'd agree that this is a very difficult thing to do, but not impossible.  

Abortion should not be considered birth control, and that is how I see people using it.  There are plenty of options out there for birth control.  I don't have any opinion about whether abortion should be legalized or not.  Every woman has to make this choice, I would just hope that they make it wisely.  Personally, I don't think the government should be involved in the issue at all.  

There is a reason why God advises one man/one woman.  He is the creator....he knows how we were created to live so that we can live life to the fullest.  Promiscuity leads to endless problems as well as disease.  It's not how we were created to live.  It also tends to make marriage to one person more difficult if people have become accustomed to sleeping with whomever makes us feel good at present.  God didn't make rules to make us miserable, but to help us live healthier life styles.  There are endless stories in the Bible that show what happens when biblical figures had multiple wives or cheated on their spouses.  Good never came of it.   So, it's not God looking down at us and not permitting us to enjoy life by being promiscuous or punishing us for doing so, but rather he is providing us with the forumla for happy healthy relationships.
Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on Jan. 23 2011,15:26



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I, myself, was not a virgin when I married and looking back, I can see the value of being abstinent until marriage
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



FTK, would you mind elaborating on the value of abstinence until marriage?

ETA: This is a serious question, I am curious about this value.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,15:52

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 23 2011,15:26)


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I, myself, was not a virgin when I married and looking back, I can see the value of being abstinent until marriage
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



FTK, would you mind elaborating on the value of abstinence until marriage?

ETA: This is a serious question, I am curious about this value.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I think I covered that....healthier, happier relationships usually transpire.  

When I look back at all my friends and their relationships growing up and their realtionships now, what I find is that those who were not as promiscuous in their youth are better able to keep a marriage together.  As for abortion, no woman is ever left unscared by a decision like that...it is with her for life.

I can't give you statistics, I'm just going by what I've seen.  Take it or leave it.  It just makes sense to me that if you look at sex as something special rather than a biological urge, you're going to be better able to form healthy relationships that work and sustain for a lifetime.  

And, please don't ever look at me as some hypocritical creature trying to enforce my values on others.  I'm anything but perfect, and the first to say so.  But, when I look at the big picture and listen to God's word about marriage and sex, it just really seems to me that he gave us instructions on how to best make relationship within marriage and a family work for the best.  It's like a self help guide to follow before you screw up.  Not a God making unfair laws and then looking down ready to punish us for messing up by not abiding by his suggestions.  And, although it may be a daiily struggle to keep to His word, I believe we're truly better off in the end by living according to it.
Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on Jan. 23 2011,16:05

Well, FTK, God's words not withstanding (I am an atheist, remember?), I think there are many interesting points to argue regarding this issue.

The main one would be that every person is different from the next, and experiences his/her sexual life in a whole range of different ways. I know couples that have been together since almost childhood, knowing just one lover, and are now curious about what sexuality as a whole entails.

I don't think we see sexuality as just a fonction, but also as a very important social and emotional bond. Plus it's huuuge fun.

My best friend (a girl) used to be very promiscuous, and yet now that she's in love and has found the "right guy", she is happier than ever, with the added perk of knowing one or two or five extra stuff about sexual intercourse. There is positive sides to all situations.

As long as you don't impose your viewpoint as the only true and rightous one, it's fine by my book. Each to his/her own.
Posted by: khan on Jan. 23 2011,16:13

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,16:52)
Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 23 2011,15:26)


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I, myself, was not a virgin when I married and looking back, I can see the value of being abstinent until marriage
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



FTK, would you mind elaborating on the value of abstinence until marriage?

ETA: This is a serious question, I am curious about this value.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I think I covered that....healthier, happier relationships usually transpire.  

When I look back at all my friends and their relationships growing up and their realtionships now, what I find is that those who were not as promiscuous in their youth are better able to keep a marriage together.  As for abortion, no woman is ever left unscared by a decision like that...it is with her for life.

I can't give you statistics, I'm just going by what I've seen.  Take it or leave it.  It just makes sense to me that if you look at sex as something special rather than a biological urge, you're going to be better able to form healthy relationships that work and sustain for a lifetime.  

And, please don't ever look at me as some hypocritical creature trying to enforce my values on others.  I'm anything but perfect, and the first to say so.  But, when I look at the big picture and listen to God's word about marriage and sex, it just really seems to me that he gave us instructions on how to best make relationship within marriage and a family work for the best.  It's like a self help guide to follow before you screw up.  Not a God making unfair laws and then looking down ready to punish us for messing up by not abiding by his suggestions.  And, although it may be a daiily struggle to keep to His word, I believe we're truly better off in the end by living according to it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


What are the degrees/levels of promiscuity?
Frequency of sex?
Number of partners?
Age of transgression?
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,16:19

Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,16:13)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,16:52)
Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 23 2011,15:26)
 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I, myself, was not a virgin when I married and looking back, I can see the value of being abstinent until marriage
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



FTK, would you mind elaborating on the value of abstinence until marriage?

ETA: This is a serious question, I am curious about this value.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I think I covered that....healthier, happier relationships usually transpire.  

When I look back at all my friends and their relationships growing up and their realtionships now, what I find is that those who were not as promiscuous in their youth are better able to keep a marriage together.  As for abortion, no woman is ever left unscared by a decision like that...it is with her for life.

I can't give you statistics, I'm just going by what I've seen.  Take it or leave it.  It just makes sense to me that if you look at sex as something special rather than a biological urge, you're going to be better able to form healthy relationships that work and sustain for a lifetime.  

And, please don't ever look at me as some hypocritical creature trying to enforce my values on others.  I'm anything but perfect, and the first to say so.  But, when I look at the big picture and listen to God's word about marriage and sex, it just really seems to me that he gave us instructions on how to best make relationship within marriage and a family work for the best.  It's like a self help guide to follow before you screw up.  Not a God making unfair laws and then looking down ready to punish us for messing up by not abiding by his suggestions.  And, although it may be a daiily struggle to keep to His word, I believe we're truly better off in the end by living according to it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


What are the degrees/levels of promiscuity?
Frequency of sex?
Number of partners?
Age of transgression?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


huh?
Posted by: Kristine on Jan. 23 2011,16:33

I think it's not unusual for anyone who did not wait until marriage and who is inclined to believe in that ideal to wish that they had... the grass is always greener emotionally, but I also think our society still puts too much emphasis on the pure/impure duality. (Example, a line from Shakespeare in Love: "A word of warning, she hath been plucked ere since. Takes a woman to know it." What utter rot. It does not "show!")

This is not a new idea, but the modern form of innocence/purity seems to be a lack of knowledge of tenderness. Certainly I wish that young people would exercise thought and planning (emotional as well as contraceptual) so that they can go into marriage, if that's what they wish, without already having children. I would settle for that.

If one's first time sucked, then I think the person is still a "virgin" in a way, and it is not a question of a great glass globe shattering with one act. I think the first time sucks anyway - I won't go TMI but some women have physical difficulties the first several times. The first time that it is special is your First Time, at least for me.

Of course, this is coming from me, who is faithful as a brick but with a roving eye (it really got crazy once I hit 40) and now a new member of the American Lovers Association!  :D
Posted by: Kristine on Jan. 23 2011,16:35

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,16:19)
Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,16:13)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,16:52)
 
Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 23 2011,15:26)
   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I, myself, was not a virgin when I married and looking back, I can see the value of being abstinent until marriage
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



FTK, would you mind elaborating on the value of abstinence until marriage?

ETA: This is a serious question, I am curious about this value.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I think I covered that....healthier, happier relationships usually transpire.  

When I look back at all my friends and their relationships growing up and their realtionships now, what I find is that those who were not as promiscuous in their youth are better able to keep a marriage together.  As for abortion, no woman is ever left unscared by a decision like that...it is with her for life.

I can't give you statistics, I'm just going by what I've seen.  Take it or leave it.  It just makes sense to me that if you look at sex as something special rather than a biological urge, you're going to be better able to form healthy relationships that work and sustain for a lifetime.  

And, please don't ever look at me as some hypocritical creature trying to enforce my values on others.  I'm anything but perfect, and the first to say so.  But, when I look at the big picture and listen to God's word about marriage and sex, it just really seems to me that he gave us instructions on how to best make relationship within marriage and a family work for the best.  It's like a self help guide to follow before you screw up.  Not a God making unfair laws and then looking down ready to punish us for messing up by not abiding by his suggestions.  And, although it may be a daiily struggle to keep to His word, I believe we're truly better off in the end by living according to it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


What are the degrees/levels of promiscuity?
Frequency of sex?
Number of partners?
Age of transgression?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


huh?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Now, you're just being a cad, Schroedinger!  :D

"And then what did they do?"  :p
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,16:40

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 23 2011,16:05)
Well, FTK, God's words not withstanding (I am an atheist, remember?), I think there are many interesting points to argue regarding this issue.

The main one would be that every person is different from the next, and experiences his/her sexual life in a whole range of different ways. I know couples that have been together since almost childhood, knowing just one lover, and are now curious about what sexuality as a whole entails.

I don't think we see sexuality as just a fonction, but also as a very important social and emotional bond. Plus it's huuuge fun.

My best friend (a girl) used to be very promiscuous, and yet now that she's in love and has found the "right guy", she is happier than ever, with the added perk of knowing one or two or five extra stuff about sexual intercourse. There is positive sides to all situations.

As long as you don't impose your viewpoint as the only true and rightous one, it's fine by my book. Each to his/her own.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Just a quick thought.  I don't personally think it's important at all to have years of previous sexual encounters to be able to enjoy your sex life to the fullest with just one person.  Sex is not a difficult thing to figure out or enjoy, and it doesn't take years of experience to cum up with a multitude of ways of enjoying it.  Just sayin'....;P
Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on Jan. 23 2011,16:43

Hey Kristine! Wasn't me, was Khan!

I was just pointing out that I love teh kinky in all its forms, as long as it's done with respect and mutual agreement...
Posted by: Kristine on Jan. 23 2011,16:46

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 23 2011,16:43)
Hey Kristine! Wasn't me, was Khan!

I was just pointing out that I love teh kinky in all its forms, as long as it's done with respect and mutual agreement...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Oops, sorry. Nesting comments got teh better of me! (That, and the vodka...)

I insulted you on your birthday! Can you ever forgive me?  :)
Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on Jan. 23 2011,16:50

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,22:40)
Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 23 2011,16:05)
Well, FTK, God's words not withstanding (I am an atheist, remember?), I think there are many interesting points to argue regarding this issue.

The main one would be that every person is different from the next, and experiences his/her sexual life in a whole range of different ways. I know couples that have been together since almost childhood, knowing just one lover, and are now curious about what sexuality as a whole entails.

I don't think we see sexuality as just a fonction, but also as a very important social and emotional bond. Plus it's huuuge fun.

My best friend (a girl) used to be very promiscuous, and yet now that she's in love and has found the "right guy", she is happier than ever, with the added perk of knowing one or two or five extra stuff about sexual intercourse. There is positive sides to all situations.

As long as you don't impose your viewpoint as the only true and rightous one, it's fine by my book. Each to his/her own.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Just a quick thought.  I don't personally think it's important at all to have years of previous sexual encounters to be able to enjoy your sex life to the fullest with just one person.  Sex is not a difficult thing to figure out or enjoy, and it doesn't take years of experience to cum up with a multitude of ways of enjoying it.  Just sayin'....;P
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I like the "cum" pun. :p

Besides that, sex comes in so many flavors, including multiple partners, sex toys, simple arousing, full intercourse, anal, oral, nuru massages, exhibition, BDSM, spitting, snowballing..etc

All these things are, in a way, enjoyable to someone, and don't have anything to do with marriage in the way they are basically enjoyed.

I know I enjoy making love to the woman I love, whatever the way and however kinky it is. But some people find arousal in having different partners, doing borderline stuff...

In the end it's just a matter of taste, and I think marriage has little to do with it.

In a way, even you could probably say you may have a marriage fetish ;)
Posted by: Doc Bill on Jan. 23 2011,16:50

FtK wrote:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Sex is not a difficult thing to figure out or enjoy, and it doesn't take years of experience to cum up with a multitude of ways of enjoying it.  Just sayin'....;P
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Sister, you said a mouthful!
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,16:53

Quote (Kristine @ Jan. 23 2011,16:33)
I think it's not unusual for anyone who did not wait until marriage and who is inclined to believe in that ideal to wish that they had... the grass is always greener emotionally, but I also think our society still puts too much emphasis on the pure/impure duality. (Example, a line from Shakespeare in Love: "A word of warning, she hath been plucked ere since. Takes a woman to know it." What utter rot. It does not "show!")

This is not a new idea, but the modern form of innocence/purity seems to be a lack of knowledge of tenderness. Certainly I wish that young people would exercise thought and planning (emotional as well as contraceptual) so that they can go into marriage, if that's what they wish, without already having children. I would settle for that.

If one's first time sucked, then I think the person is still a "virgin" in a way, and it is not a question of a great glass globe shattering with one act. I think the first time sucks anyway - I won't go TMI but some women have physical difficulties the first several times. The first time that it is special is your First Time, at least for me.

Of course, this is coming from me, who is faithful as a brick but with a roving eye (it really got crazy once I hit 40) and now a new member of the American Lovers Association!  :D
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


hehe.."it really got crazy when I hit 40"....too funny.  My husband's oft response.."Good God girl, where were you when I was 18"....lmao.  Darm those mismatched sexual peeks!  Course, probably for the best, otherwise nothing else in life would get accomplished...;P
Posted by: khan on Jan. 23 2011,16:55

She said:


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
not as promiscuous in their youth
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



To me, the 'as' implied some sort of scale.
Posted by: Badger3k on Jan. 23 2011,16:58

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,15:24)
Quote (Dale_Husband @ Jan. 23 2011,14:31)
Quote (MadPanda @ FCD,Jan. 21 2011,18:48)
   
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,16:01)
I can't go tell PZ, Rich, he banned my ass years ago.  He doesn't allow dissent.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The first sentence is true.  The second sentence is so obviously false that anyone with a working conscience must blush to see the accusation made: the troll was invited to leave for being trollish, not merely for dissenting.  (Hint: there are practicing Xians who have earned the OM designation, some of whom have been known to tell Dr. Myers that he's full of it.  Funny how they haven't been hit with the banhammer yet.)

So, FTK, since you seem to think that abortion is a bad thing, what mandatory minimum sentence would you embrace for women seeking to terminate problematic pregnancies?

You, Biggy, what's the difference?


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It seems that the issue for anti-abortion fanatics is that they see premarital sex as a sin and thus things like pregnancy and STDs for unmarried girls and women are a punishment for those who sin.

That, in my opinion, degrades the value of children as much as abortion does.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


No, I would disagree that anti-abortion "fanatics" are *against abortion* because they know that premarital sex is a sin.  Nor, do I look at STD's as punishment.  Also, I might add that I, myself, was not a virgin when I married and looking back, I can see the value of being abstinent until marriage. Although, I'd agree that this is a very difficult thing to do, but not impossible.  

Abortion should not be considered birth control, and that is how I see people using it (1).  There are plenty of options out there for birth control.  I don't have any opinion about whether abortion should be legalized or not.  Every woman has to make this choice, I would just hope that they make it wisely.  Personally, I don't think the government should be involved in the issue at all.  

There is a reason why God advises one man/one woman (2).  He is the creator....he knows how we were created to live so that we can live life to the fullest.  Promiscuity leads to endless problems as well as disease.  It's not how we were created to live.  It also tends to make marriage to one person more difficult if people have become accustomed to sleeping with whomever makes us feel good at present.  God didn't make rules to make us miserable, but to help us live healthier life styles.  There are endless stories in the Bible that show what happens when biblical figures had multiple wives or cheated on their spouses.  Good never came of it.   So, it's not God looking down at us and not permitting us to enjoy life by being promiscuous or punishing us for doing so, but rather he is providing us with the forumla for happy healthy relationships.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Bolding mine.

(1) This is the problem.  You think this is how people are using it, but in 43 years of life, I've never met, seen, or heard of anyone who actually sees it like this, short of anti-choice fanatics.  It's a talking point, a way of reducing the person making the choice to someone you can spit on and feel superior to.  It completely ignores reality, even though you seem to realize it on one level.  I do find it odd that you have no opinion whether it should be legalized or not, yet you say that every woman has to make that choice and that the government should not be involved.  Sounds pro-choice to me.

(2) Except for all that Old Testament polygamy thing.  And the forced "marriages" of captured virgins to the people who killed their families.  Marriage to rapists.  Yeah, God must have changed his mind, then.  Like so much else in the Big Book of Multiple Excuses...
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,17:04

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 23 2011,16:50)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,22:40)
Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 23 2011,16:05)
Well, FTK, God's words not withstanding (I am an atheist, remember?), I think there are many interesting points to argue regarding this issue.

The main one would be that every person is different from the next, and experiences his/her sexual life in a whole range of different ways. I know couples that have been together since almost childhood, knowing just one lover, and are now curious about what sexuality as a whole entails.

I don't think we see sexuality as just a fonction, but also as a very important social and emotional bond. Plus it's huuuge fun.

My best friend (a girl) used to be very promiscuous, and yet now that she's in love and has found the "right guy", she is happier than ever, with the added perk of knowing one or two or five extra stuff about sexual intercourse. There is positive sides to all situations.

As long as you don't impose your viewpoint as the only true and rightous one, it's fine by my book. Each to his/her own.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Just a quick thought.  I don't personally think it's important at all to have years of previous sexual encounters to be able to enjoy your sex life to the fullest with just one person.  Sex is not a difficult thing to figure out or enjoy, and it doesn't take years of experience to cum up with a multitude of ways of enjoying it.  Just sayin'....;P
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I like the "cum" pun. :p

Besides that, sex comes in so many flavors, including multiple partners, sex toys, simple arousing, full intercourse, anal, oral, nuru massages, exhibition, BDSM, spitting, snowballing..etc

All these things are, in a way, enjoyable to someone, and don't have anything to do with marriage in the way they are basically enjoyed.

I know I enjoy making love to the woman I love, whatever the way and however kinky it is. But some people find arousal in having different partners, doing borderline stuff...

In the end it's just a matter of taste, and I think marriage has little to do with it.

In a way, even you could probably say you may have a marriage fetish ;)
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Yeah, here I disagree of course.  This kind of description makes sex too much of a game or group game.  This is what I believe (granted I don't know much...just sayin') leads kids into meaningless "hook-ups".... how much sex can I get...with how many people....just for gratification.  This is what we see all over the media.  It is what leads to relationship problems, STDS, unwanted pregnancy, etc., etc.,.

I'm not saying that we can't enjoy sex in a multitude of ways with that special person (preferably spouse), I'm just saying it should be kept as a special encounter..not one for kicks.  Safer and healthier that way.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,17:06

Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,16:55)
She said:


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
not as promiscuous in their youth
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



To me, the 'as' implied some sort of scale.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Wasn't meant to be.....I meant sex previous to marriage.  Sorry for the confusion.
Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on Jan. 23 2011,17:12

Well, FTK, we have totaly different views on this topic, and I think it's not one we can find middle ground about.

But all the same, it was nice to finally have a human, civil, and interesting talk with you. Keep it up on other subjects discussed in these pages!

Good evening (midnight here, had my birthday diner, feel full, getting a massage, 3 hot girls waiting for me...)








ETA: By the way, sex IS a game! reproduction is the final goal, but you do have to practice. And as with boxing, dancing... you need to try multiple sparing partners in order to get full potential...
Posted by: Stanton on Jan. 23 2011,17:20

What I've seen for a long time is that virtually all of the anti-abortion proponents I've encountered neither understand nor care that the primary reasons for abortions are for medical/therapeutic reasons, and not for birth control.

From what I've seen, all they want is for Jesus to have yet another boot-licking minion to boss and kick around; the babies' literally suffering mother be literally damned for all they care.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,17:25

Quote (Badger3k @ Jan. 23 2011,16:58)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,15:24)
Quote (Dale_Husband @ Jan. 23 2011,14:31)
 
Quote (MadPanda @ FCD,Jan. 21 2011,18:48)
   
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,16:01)
I can't go tell PZ, Rich, he banned my ass years ago.  He doesn't allow dissent.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The first sentence is true.  The second sentence is so obviously false that anyone with a working conscience must blush to see the accusation made: the troll was invited to leave for being trollish, not merely for dissenting.  (Hint: there are practicing Xians who have earned the OM designation, some of whom have been known to tell Dr. Myers that he's full of it.  Funny how they haven't been hit with the banhammer yet.)

So, FTK, since you seem to think that abortion is a bad thing, what mandatory minimum sentence would you embrace for women seeking to terminate problematic pregnancies?

You, Biggy, what's the difference?


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It seems that the issue for anti-abortion fanatics is that they see premarital sex as a sin and thus things like pregnancy and STDs for unmarried girls and women are a punishment for those who sin.

That, in my opinion, degrades the value of children as much as abortion does.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


No, I would disagree that anti-abortion "fanatics" are *against abortion* because they know that premarital sex is a sin.  Nor, do I look at STD's as punishment.  Also, I might add that I, myself, was not a virgin when I married and looking back, I can see the value of being abstinent until marriage. Although, I'd agree that this is a very difficult thing to do, but not impossible.  

Abortion should not be considered birth control, and that is how I see people using it (1).  There are plenty of options out there for birth control.  I don't have any opinion about whether abortion should be legalized or not.  Every woman has to make this choice, I would just hope that they make it wisely.  Personally, I don't think the government should be involved in the issue at all.  

There is a reason why God advises one man/one woman (2).  He is the creator....he knows how we were created to live so that we can live life to the fullest.  Promiscuity leads to endless problems as well as disease.  It's not how we were created to live.  It also tends to make marriage to one person more difficult if people have become accustomed to sleeping with whomever makes us feel good at present.  God didn't make rules to make us miserable, but to help us live healthier life styles.  There are endless stories in the Bible that show what happens when biblical figures had multiple wives or cheated on their spouses.  Good never came of it.   So, it's not God looking down at us and not permitting us to enjoy life by being promiscuous or punishing us for doing so, but rather he is providing us with the forumla for happy healthy relationships.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Bolding mine.

(1) This is the problem.  You think this is how people are using it, but in 43 years of life, I've never met, seen, or heard of anyone who actually sees it like this, short of anti-choice fanatics.  It's a talking point, a way of reducing the person making the choice to someone you can spit on and feel superior to.  It completely ignores reality, even though you seem to realize it on one level.  I do find it odd that you have no opinion whether it should be legalized or not, yet you say that every woman has to make that choice and that the government should not be involved.  Sounds pro-choice to me.

(2) Except for all that Old Testament polygamy thing.  And the forced "marriages" of captured virgins to the people who killed their families.  Marriage to rapists.  Yeah, God must have changed his mind, then.  Like so much else in the Big Book of Multiple Excuses...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Mhmm...okay, just my opinion again...

Let me clarify just a bit regarding using abortion as birth control.  I don't believe that a woman, when she is making love with someone without protection, is thinking "oh, what the hell, if anything happens, I'll have an abortion".  

But, I think that with the rate of abortions we see today, subconsciously, we know there is a way to rid of an unwanted pregnancy if all else fails.  

Let me just add, that this is something that comes to anyone's mind regardless of religion if you are in the that position.  Since it has been legalized by the government, there is ample opportunity to get abortions and I'd bet that abortion numbers are WAY up in comparision to before abortions were legal.  Im sure promiscuity is way up as well.  There is always a way out of it.  And, even people who have been brought up knowing that abortion is wrong may take this avenue because it appears initially as the easy way out.  It's something many regret.  I remember thinking about it myself several months ago, when I thought I might be pregnant.  Im 45...that would not be cool.  All kinds of things crossed my mind.  I think by making abortion so readily available, we kill millions of children every year, when much, much better options are out there.

As for OT polygamy, God did not advise this as a way to live.  It was what was going on at the time.  Many, many wrong or evil things occured historically in the Bible that were not dictated by God.  Yes, there are those *very* few incidences in the OT where God commands something that seems to go against the grain. I cannot answer for God....I don't know all the circumstances, and I cannot know His mind. Overall, the Bible is *very consistent* in God's commands.  There are endless arguments as to how one can justify God's actions in these few circumstances, but in the end, I'll have lots of questions for Him when I hit the pearly gates.   Creation 101 is on the top of my list.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,17:29

Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,17:20)
What I've seen for a long time is that virtually all of the anti-abortion proponents I've encountered neither understand nor care that the primary reasons for abortions are for medical/therapeutic reasons, and not for birth control.

From what I've seen, all they want is for Jesus to have yet another boot-licking minion to boss and kick around; the babies' literally suffering mother be literally damned for all they care.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I've read the statistics many times.  You're wrong, and if you believe your justified in your response, please provided statistics.  Maybe I've missed something.
Posted by: khan on Jan. 23 2011,17:34

Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,18:20)
What I've seen for a long time is that virtually all of the anti-abortion proponents I've encountered neither understand nor care that the primary reasons for abortions are for medical/therapeutic reasons, and not for birth control.

From what I've seen, all they want is for Jesus to have yet another boot-licking minion to boss and kick around; the babies' literally suffering mother be literally damned for all they care.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It doesn't matter the reason, she must be made to suffer.
Posted by: khan on Jan. 23 2011,17:39

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:25)
Quote (Badger3k @ Jan. 23 2011,16:58)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,15:24)
 
Quote (Dale_Husband @ Jan. 23 2011,14:31)
 
Quote (MadPanda @ FCD,Jan. 21 2011,18:48)
     
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,16:01)
I can't go tell PZ, Rich, he banned my ass years ago.  He doesn't allow dissent.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The first sentence is true.  The second sentence is so obviously false that anyone with a working conscience must blush to see the accusation made: the troll was invited to leave for being trollish, not merely for dissenting.  (Hint: there are practicing Xians who have earned the OM designation, some of whom have been known to tell Dr. Myers that he's full of it.  Funny how they haven't been hit with the banhammer yet.)

So, FTK, since you seem to think that abortion is a bad thing, what mandatory minimum sentence would you embrace for women seeking to terminate problematic pregnancies?

You, Biggy, what's the difference?


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It seems that the issue for anti-abortion fanatics is that they see premarital sex as a sin and thus things like pregnancy and STDs for unmarried girls and women are a punishment for those who sin.

That, in my opinion, degrades the value of children as much as abortion does.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


No, I would disagree that anti-abortion "fanatics" are *against abortion* because they know that premarital sex is a sin.  Nor, do I look at STD's as punishment.  Also, I might add that I, myself, was not a virgin when I married and looking back, I can see the value of being abstinent until marriage. Although, I'd agree that this is a very difficult thing to do, but not impossible.  

Abortion should not be considered birth control, and that is how I see people using it (1).  There are plenty of options out there for birth control.  I don't have any opinion about whether abortion should be legalized or not.  Every woman has to make this choice, I would just hope that they make it wisely.  Personally, I don't think the government should be involved in the issue at all.  

There is a reason why God advises one man/one woman (2).  He is the creator....he knows how we were created to live so that we can live life to the fullest.  Promiscuity leads to endless problems as well as disease.  It's not how we were created to live.  It also tends to make marriage to one person more difficult if people have become accustomed to sleeping with whomever makes us feel good at present.  God didn't make rules to make us miserable, but to help us live healthier life styles.  There are endless stories in the Bible that show what happens when biblical figures had multiple wives or cheated on their spouses.  Good never came of it.   So, it's not God looking down at us and not permitting us to enjoy life by being promiscuous or punishing us for doing so, but rather he is providing us with the forumla for happy healthy relationships.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Bolding mine.

(1) This is the problem.  You think this is how people are using it, but in 43 years of life, I've never met, seen, or heard of anyone who actually sees it like this, short of anti-choice fanatics.  It's a talking point, a way of reducing the person making the choice to someone you can spit on and feel superior to.  It completely ignores reality, even though you seem to realize it on one level.  I do find it odd that you have no opinion whether it should be legalized or not, yet you say that every woman has to make that choice and that the government should not be involved.  Sounds pro-choice to me.

(2) Except for all that Old Testament polygamy thing.  And the forced "marriages" of captured virgins to the people who killed their families.  Marriage to rapists.  Yeah, God must have changed his mind, then.  Like so much else in the Big Book of Multiple Excuses...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Mhmm...okay, just my opinion again...

Let me clarify just a bit regarding using abortion as birth control.  I don't believe that a woman, when she is making love with someone without protection, is thinking "oh, what the hell, if anything happens, I'll have an abortion".  

But, I think that with the rate of abortions we see today, subconsciously, we know there is a way to rid of an unwanted pregnancy if all else fails.  

Let me just add, that this is something that comes to anyone's mind regardless of religion if you are in the that position.  Since it has been legalized by the government, there is ample opportunity to get abortions and I'd bet that abortion numbers are WAY up in comparision to before abortions were legal.  Im sure promiscuity is way up as well.  There is always a way out of it.  And, even people who have been brought up knowing that abortion is wrong may take this avenue because it appears initially as the easy way out.  It's something many regret.  I remember thinking about it myself several months ago, when I thought I might be pregnant.  Im 45...that would not be cool.  All kinds of things crossed my mind.  I think by making abortion so readily available, we kill millions of children every year, when much, much better options are out there.

As for OT polygamy, God did not advise this as a way to live.  It was what was going on at the time.  Many, many wrong or evil things occured historically in the Bible that were not dictated by God.  Yes, there are those *very* few incidences in the OT where God commands something that seems to go against the grain. I cannot answer for God....I don't know all the circumstances, and I cannot know His mind. Overall, the Bible is *very consistent* in God's commands.  There are endless arguments as to how one can justify God's actions in these few circumstances, but in the end, I'll have lots of questions for Him when I hit the pearly gates.   Creation 101 is on the top of my list.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


My mother told me that her mother had several abortions back in the 1930s (something about the Depression). She was married. Was she a promiscuous slut? Or just as woman trying to survive?
Posted by: khan on Jan. 23 2011,17:41

delete duplicate
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,17:41

You know what, Stanton, in '09 in Kansas alone, there were approx. 9,500 abortions.  I'm finding it very hard to believe that the mother/and or children were all in jeopardy due to child birth. "Therapeutic" can mean virtually anything.
Posted by: khan on Jan. 23 2011,17:43

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:41)
You know what, Stanton, in '09 in Kansas alone, there were approx. 9,500 abortions.  I'm finding it very hard to believe that the mother/and or children were all in jeopardy due to child birth. "Therapeutic" can mean virtually anything.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It can mean I'll kill myself if I can't get it removed.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,17:43

Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,17:41)
delete duplicate
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Khan, I can't answer that.  It's not my place to judge...that is God's job, and he is a very forgiving God.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,17:46

Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,17:43)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:41)
You know what, Stanton, in '09 in Kansas alone, there were approx. 9,500 abortions.  I'm finding it very hard to believe that the mother/and or children were all in jeopardy due to child birth. "Therapeutic" can mean virtually anything.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It can mean I'll kill myself if I can't get it removed.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


With counseling for the emotional state, it could be removed through natural birth and placed with another family would could better care for it.  9 months isn't a lifetime.
Posted by: khan on Jan. 23 2011,17:47

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:46)
Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,17:43)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:41)
You know what, Stanton, in '09 in Kansas alone, there were approx. 9,500 abortions.  I'm finding it very hard to believe that the mother/and or children were all in jeopardy due to child birth. "Therapeutic" can mean virtually anything.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It can mean I'll kill myself if I can't get it removed.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


With counseling for the emotional state, it could be removed through natural birth and placed with another family would could better care for it.  9 months isn't a lifetime.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Oh shit!
A forced-birther spotted in the wild.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,17:49

Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,17:47)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:46)
Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,17:43)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:41)
You know what, Stanton, in '09 in Kansas alone, there were approx. 9,500 abortions.  I'm finding it very hard to believe that the mother/and or children were all in jeopardy due to child birth. "Therapeutic" can mean virtually anything.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It can mean I'll kill myself if I can't get it removed.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


With counseling for the emotional state, it could be removed through natural birth and placed with another family would could better care for it.  9 months isn't a lifetime.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Oh shit!
A forced-birther spotted in the wild.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It's an option.
Posted by: Dale_Husband on Jan. 23 2011,17:49

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:46)
 
Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,17:43)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:41)
You know what, Stanton, in '09 in Kansas alone, there were approx. 9,500 abortions.  I'm finding it very hard to believe that the mother/and or children were all in jeopardy due to child birth. "Therapeutic" can mean virtually anything.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It can mean I'll kill myself if I can't get it removed.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


With counseling for the emotional state, it could be removed through natural birth and placed with another family would could better care for it.  9 months isn't a lifetime.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Gee, your idiocy and lack of empathy for pregnant women, especially rape and incest victims, just becomes all the more obvious.
Posted by: Stanton on Jan. 23 2011,18:03

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:29)
Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,17:20)
What I've seen for a long time is that virtually all of the anti-abortion proponents I've encountered neither understand nor care that the primary reasons for abortions are for medical/therapeutic reasons, and not for birth control.

From what I've seen, all they want is for Jesus to have yet another boot-licking minion to boss and kick around; the babies' literally suffering mother be literally damned for all they care.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I've read the statistics many times.  You're wrong, and if you believe your justified in your response, please provided statistics.  Maybe I've missed something.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Like you'd honestly bother to look at any statistic I provided.  As for the statistics you're providing: did you check and find out what reasons those women had for having abortions, or did you just automatically assume that the sole reason was they hate Jesus?
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,18:05

Quote (Dale_Husband @ Jan. 23 2011,17:49)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:46)
 
Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,17:43)
   
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:41)
You know what, Stanton, in '09 in Kansas alone, there were approx. 9,500 abortions.  I'm finding it very hard to believe that the mother/and or children were all in jeopardy due to child birth. "Therapeutic" can mean virtually anything.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It can mean I'll kill myself if I can't get it removed.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


With counseling for the emotional state, it could be removed through natural birth and placed with another family would could better care for it.  9 months isn't a lifetime.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Gee, your idiocy and lack of empathy for pregnant women, especially rape and incest victims, just becomes all the more obvious.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You now what?  My aunt (actually my cousin) was the result of what occured due to rape.  My grandmother raised my aunt's daughter as her own.  

She is a wonderful person...is always helping others.  She lives by Mayo hospital and before my Dad passed away, she let us use her home for whatever we needed on our trips back and forth to Mayo.  She does that for many people since she lives so close to the hospital.  

I can't say enough good things about this woman.  I think about all the people who would not have received her love and kindness if her mother had opted to abort her due to a horrible incident such as rape.  Rape doesn't make the child a horrible person by any means, and it didn't ruin my aunt's life to have her.
Posted by: khan on Jan. 23 2011,18:05

Quote (Dale_Husband @ Jan. 23 2011,18:49)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:46)
 
Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,17:43)
   
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:41)
You know what, Stanton, in '09 in Kansas alone, there were approx. 9,500 abortions.  I'm finding it very hard to believe that the mother/and or children were all in jeopardy due to child birth. "Therapeutic" can mean virtually anything.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It can mean I'll kill myself if I can't get it removed.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


With counseling for the emotional state, it could be removed through natural birth and placed with another family would could better care for it.  9 months isn't a lifetime.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Gee, your idiocy and lack of empathy for pregnant women, especially rape and incest victims, just becomes all the more obvious.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


How many of those hundreds of thousands of precious ones in foster care has she adopted?
Posted by: Stanton on Jan. 23 2011,18:06

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:41)
You know what, Stanton, in '09 in Kansas alone, there were approx. 9,500 abortions.  I'm finding it very hard to believe that the mother/and or children were all in jeopardy due to child birth. "Therapeutic" can mean virtually anything.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So, where did you find out that all of these abortions were done specifically to spite Jesus?  One of those websites that orders fellow Christians go out and murder abortion clinic doctors, their co-workers and their families?
Posted by: Stanton on Jan. 23 2011,18:10

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:46)
Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,17:43)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:41)
You know what, Stanton, in '09 in Kansas alone, there were approx. 9,500 abortions.  I'm finding it very hard to believe that the mother/and or children were all in jeopardy due to child birth. "Therapeutic" can mean virtually anything.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It can mean I'll kill myself if I can't get it removed.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


With counseling for the emotional state, it could be removed through natural birth and placed with another family would could better care for it.  9 months isn't a lifetime.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So, is that what you'd suggest for, say, a 9 year old rape victim?  Even though her doctors said that she would probably literally die by the 7th month because her body is just not big or developed to bear children?  That she should just have counseling?

Or, what about a woman whose pregnancy is causing her lungs to fill up with fluid?
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,18:12

Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,18:03)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:29)
Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,17:20)
What I've seen for a long time is that virtually all of the anti-abortion proponents I've encountered neither understand nor care that the primary reasons for abortions are for medical/therapeutic reasons, and not for birth control.

From what I've seen, all they want is for Jesus to have yet another boot-licking minion to boss and kick around; the babies' literally suffering mother be literally damned for all they care.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I've read the statistics many times.  You're wrong, and if you believe your justified in your response, please provided statistics.  Maybe I've missed something.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Like you'd honestly bother to look at any statistic I provided.  As for the statistics you're providing: did you check and find out what reasons those women had for having abortions, or did you just automatically assume that the sole reason was they hate Jesus?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


None of this has anything to do with hating Jesus.
Posted by: Stanton on Jan. 23 2011,18:13

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:05)
Quote (Dale_Husband @ Jan. 23 2011,17:49)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:46)
   
Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,17:43)
   
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:41)
You know what, Stanton, in '09 in Kansas alone, there were approx. 9,500 abortions.  I'm finding it very hard to believe that the mother/and or children were all in jeopardy due to child birth. "Therapeutic" can mean virtually anything.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It can mean I'll kill myself if I can't get it removed.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


With counseling for the emotional state, it could be removed through natural birth and placed with another family would could better care for it.  9 months isn't a lifetime.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Gee, your idiocy and lack of empathy for pregnant women, especially rape and incest victims, just becomes all the more obvious.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You now what?  My aunt (actually my cousin) was the result of what occured due to rape.  My grandmother raised my aunt's daughter as her own.  

She is a wonderful person...is always helping others.  She lives by Mayo hospital and before my Dad passed away, she let us use her home for whatever we needed on our trips back and forth to Mayo.  She does that for many people since she lives so close to the hospital.  

I can't say enough good things about this woman.  I think about all the people who would not have received her love and kindness if her mother had opted to abort her due to a horrible incident such as rape.  Rape doesn't make the child a horrible person by any means, and it didn't ruin my aunt's life to have her.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So you're saying we should deny rape victims from having any abortion or other forms of post-sex contraception?  That, there is the off-chance that the baby conceived of this woman's violation of her very being might be a wonderful person?
Posted by: Stanton on Jan. 23 2011,18:16

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:12)
Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,18:03)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:29)
 
Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,17:20)
What I've seen for a long time is that virtually all of the anti-abortion proponents I've encountered neither understand nor care that the primary reasons for abortions are for medical/therapeutic reasons, and not for birth control.

From what I've seen, all they want is for Jesus to have yet another boot-licking minion to boss and kick around; the babies' literally suffering mother be literally damned for all they care.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I've read the statistics many times.  You're wrong, and if you believe your justified in your response, please provided statistics.  Maybe I've missed something.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Like you'd honestly bother to look at any statistic I provided.  As for the statistics you're providing: did you check and find out what reasons those women had for having abortions, or did you just automatically assume that the sole reason was they hate Jesus?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


None of this has anything to do with hating Jesus.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Then how come all other anti-abortion proponents say otherwise?  Why is it that pro-lifers always talk about how their God-hating enemies want to abort every single pregnancy in order to spite Jesus?
Posted by: khan on Jan. 23 2011,18:19

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:46)
Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,17:43)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:41)
You know what, Stanton, in '09 in Kansas alone, there were approx. 9,500 abortions.  I'm finding it very hard to believe that the mother/and or children were all in jeopardy due to child birth. "Therapeutic" can mean virtually anything.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It can mean I'll kill myself if I can't get it removed.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


With counseling for the emotional state, it could be removed through natural birth and placed with another family would could better care for it.  9 months isn't a lifetime.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Clitoral tearing, 4 way episiotomies, preeclampsia, dystocia, hyperemesis gravidarum ...
Posted by: Stanton on Jan. 23 2011,18:19

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:12)
Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,18:03)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:29)
 
Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,17:20)
What I've seen for a long time is that virtually all of the anti-abortion proponents I've encountered neither understand nor care that the primary reasons for abortions are for medical/therapeutic reasons, and not for birth control.

From what I've seen, all they want is for Jesus to have yet another boot-licking minion to boss and kick around; the babies' literally suffering mother be literally damned for all they care.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I've read the statistics many times.  You're wrong, and if you believe your justified in your response, please provided statistics.  Maybe I've missed something.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Like you'd honestly bother to look at any statistic I provided.  As for the statistics you're providing: did you check and find out what reasons those women had for having abortions, or did you just automatically assume that the sole reason was they hate Jesus?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


None of this has anything to do with hating Jesus.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So, do you know what the reasons for these 9,500 abortions were for Kansas of 2009, or are you trying to imply it was done solely for birth control and hating Jesus?
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,18:23

Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,18:05)
Quote (Dale_Husband @ Jan. 23 2011,18:49)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:46)
   
Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,17:43)
   
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:41)
You know what, Stanton, in '09 in Kansas alone, there were approx. 9,500 abortions.  I'm finding it very hard to believe that the mother/and or children were all in jeopardy due to child birth. "Therapeutic" can mean virtually anything.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It can mean I'll kill myself if I can't get it removed.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


With counseling for the emotional state, it could be removed through natural birth and placed with another family would could better care for it.  9 months isn't a lifetime.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Gee, your idiocy and lack of empathy for pregnant women, especially rape and incest victims, just becomes all the more obvious.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


How many of those hundreds of thousands of precious ones in foster care has she adopted?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


In this day and age, there no reason whatsoever that there should be hundreds and thousands of children to be adopted.  

Stop abortion, practise birth control.  It's simple.  

All this to do about abortion should just be silenced on both sides.  Birth control should be taught as well as abstinence.  Preferably, parents should get their act together and talk to their children...keep an eye out for them and what they are involved in.  And, schools should teach birth control, and they do.  Abstinence should be #1 on the list, imho.  But, by all means teach the rest of it.  That doesn't mean we need to bring out teh bananas and pass out the condoms or give out birth control pills.  

Children shouldn't be having sex...if they are mature enough to have it, they should be mature enough to go get the protection they need, not have it given to them like candy.  We need to teach our kids responsibility early on.  I've told both mine everything about sex, and I've told them the best is to abstain, but for goodness sakes, if you're getting into situations that you can't control.....GET BIRTH CONTROL.

The media certainly doesn't help, and attitudes like SD are harmful as well, because it makes kids feel that, to be the stud muffin, they have to have years of practise and multiple partners to enjoy sex.  Ridiculous and unhealthy.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,18:25

Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,18:06)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:41)
You know what, Stanton, in '09 in Kansas alone, there were approx. 9,500 abortions.  I'm finding it very hard to believe that the mother/and or children were all in jeopardy due to child birth. "Therapeutic" can mean virtually anything.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So, where did you find out that all of these abortions were done specifically to spite Jesus?  One of those websites that orders fellow Christians go out and murder abortion clinic doctors, their co-workers and their families?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Good grief, where do you come up with these statements?  This has nothing to do with Jesus.  God can forgive any sin.  This is about life...the life of a child.  There are better options...
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,18:31

Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,18:10)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:46)
Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,17:43)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:41)
You know what, Stanton, in '09 in Kansas alone, there were approx. 9,500 abortions.  I'm finding it very hard to believe that the mother/and or children were all in jeopardy due to child birth. "Therapeutic" can mean virtually anything.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It can mean I'll kill myself if I can't get it removed.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


With counseling for the emotional state, it could be removed through natural birth and placed with another family would could better care for it.  9 months isn't a lifetime.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So, is that what you'd suggest for, say, a 9 year old rape victim?  Even though her doctors said that she would probably literally die by the 7th month because her body is just not big or developed to bear children?  That she should just have counseling?

Or, what about a woman whose pregnancy is causing her lungs to fill up with fluid?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Stanton,

These are very unusual predictaments.  This is not the norm.  I firmly believe that if a mother is at the point of having to chose life over death due to childbirth, I think God would be forgiving of letting the child come back to Him.  That does not mean that I would suggest terminating the pregnancy at the start.  I've seen very small women give birth with little complications.  Aborting the child might leave more emotional scars than the physical scars of actually having it.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,18:38

Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,18:16)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:12)
Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,18:03)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:29)
 
Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,17:20)
What I've seen for a long time is that virtually all of the anti-abortion proponents I've encountered neither understand nor care that the primary reasons for abortions are for medical/therapeutic reasons, and not for birth control.

From what I've seen, all they want is for Jesus to have yet another boot-licking minion to boss and kick around; the babies' literally suffering mother be literally damned for all they care.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I've read the statistics many times.  You're wrong, and if you believe your justified in your response, please provided statistics.  Maybe I've missed something.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Like you'd honestly bother to look at any statistic I provided.  As for the statistics you're providing: did you check and find out what reasons those women had for having abortions, or did you just automatically assume that the sole reason was they hate Jesus?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


None of this has anything to do with hating Jesus.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Then how come all other anti-abortion proponents say otherwise?  Why is it that pro-lifers always talk about how their God-hating enemies want to abort every single pregnancy in order to spite Jesus?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Hmmm...I think these type of people are a minority.  This sounds more like hatred for people who are not Christian or who have made choices you disagree with.  That is not what biblical Christianity is about, and it is NOT our place to judge...that is God's job.  But, it is our right to hold our Christian values and share them with others.  It's not intolerance, it's sharing a perspective that we believe is of benefit to others.  We aren't the only ones who share are perspectives....people of all creeds do that regardless of whether they are Christian or not.
Posted by: Stanton on Jan. 23 2011,18:38

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:25)
Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,18:06)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:41)
You know what, Stanton, in '09 in Kansas alone, there were approx. 9,500 abortions.  I'm finding it very hard to believe that the mother/and or children were all in jeopardy due to child birth. "Therapeutic" can mean virtually anything.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So, where did you find out that all of these abortions were done specifically to spite Jesus?  One of those websites that orders fellow Christians go out and murder abortion clinic doctors, their co-workers and their families?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Good grief, where do you come up with these statements?  This has nothing to do with Jesus.  God can forgive any sin.  This is about life...the life of a child.  There are better options...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I find them coming out of the mouths of pro-lifers, the Roman Catholic Church and fundamentalist demagogues.

From what I've seen of them, they don't care about the benefit or the condition of the mother at all: if it meant denying an abortion, they'd let her die in agony.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,18:41

Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,18:19)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:46)
Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,17:43)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:41)
You know what, Stanton, in '09 in Kansas alone, there were approx. 9,500 abortions.  I'm finding it very hard to believe that the mother/and or children were all in jeopardy due to child birth. "Therapeutic" can mean virtually anything.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It can mean I'll kill myself if I can't get it removed.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


With counseling for the emotional state, it could be removed through natural birth and placed with another family would could better care for it.  9 months isn't a lifetime.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Clitoral tearing, 4 way episiotomies, preeclampsia, dystocia, hyperemesis gravidarum ...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It's all worth it for the life of a child....and most women won't have to deal with all that.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,18:44

Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,18:38)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:25)
Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,18:06)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:41)
You know what, Stanton, in '09 in Kansas alone, there were approx. 9,500 abortions.  I'm finding it very hard to believe that the mother/and or children were all in jeopardy due to child birth. "Therapeutic" can mean virtually anything.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So, where did you find out that all of these abortions were done specifically to spite Jesus?  One of those websites that orders fellow Christians go out and murder abortion clinic doctors, their co-workers and their families?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Good grief, where do you come up with these statements?  This has nothing to do with Jesus.  God can forgive any sin.  This is about life...the life of a child.  There are better options...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I find them coming out of the mouths of pro-lifers, the Roman Catholic Church and fundamentalist demagogues.

From what I've seen of them, they don't care about the benefit or the condition of the mother at all: if it meant denying an abortion, they'd let her die in agony.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Well, shame on them then.  That is not how Christ would respond.
Posted by: khan on Jan. 23 2011,18:44

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,19:31)
Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,18:10)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:46)
 
Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,17:43)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:41)
You know what, Stanton, in '09 in Kansas alone, there were approx. 9,500 abortions.  I'm finding it very hard to believe that the mother/and or children were all in jeopardy due to child birth. "Therapeutic" can mean virtually anything.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It can mean I'll kill myself if I can't get it removed.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


With counseling for the emotional state, it could be removed through natural birth and placed with another family would could better care for it.  9 months isn't a lifetime.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So, is that what you'd suggest for, say, a 9 year old rape victim?  Even though her doctors said that she would probably literally die by the 7th month because her body is just not big or developed to bear children?  That she should just have counseling?

Or, what about a woman whose pregnancy is causing her lungs to fill up with fluid?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Stanton,

These are very unusual predictaments.  This is not the norm.  I firmly believe that if a mother is at the point of having to chose life over death due to childbirth, [b}I think God would be forgiving of letting the child come back to Him.  That does not mean that I would suggest terminating the pregnancy at the start.  I've seen very small women give birth with little complications.  Aborting the child might leave more emotional scars than the physical scars of actually having it.[/b]
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Who are you to decide what I (or any other woman) should do with her uterus?

I assure you that your gods have nothing to do with fertilization.
Posted by: khan on Jan. 23 2011,18:48

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,19:25)
Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,18:06)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:41)
You know what, Stanton, in '09 in Kansas alone, there were approx. 9,500 abortions.  I'm finding it very hard to believe that the mother/and or children were all in jeopardy due to child birth. "Therapeutic" can mean virtually anything.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So, where did you find out that all of these abortions were done specifically to spite Jesus?  One of those websites that orders fellow Christians go out and murder abortion clinic doctors, their co-workers and their families?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Good grief, where do you come up with these statements?  This has nothing to do with Jesus.  God can forgive any sin.  This is about life...the life of a child.  There are better options...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So are your gods smart enough to not implant 'souls' into fertilized eggs that he/she/it/one of them knew wouldn't make it to birth?
Posted by: Stanton on Jan. 23 2011,18:48

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:31)
Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,18:10)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:46)
 
Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,17:43)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:41)
You know what, Stanton, in '09 in Kansas alone, there were approx. 9,500 abortions.  I'm finding it very hard to believe that the mother/and or children were all in jeopardy due to child birth. "Therapeutic" can mean virtually anything.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It can mean I'll kill myself if I can't get it removed.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


With counseling for the emotional state, it could be removed through natural birth and placed with another family would could better care for it.  9 months isn't a lifetime.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So, is that what you'd suggest for, say, a 9 year old rape victim?  Even though her doctors said that she would probably literally die by the 7th month because her body is just not big or developed to bear children?  That she should just have counseling?

Or, what about a woman whose pregnancy is causing her lungs to fill up with fluid?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Stanton,

These are very unusual predictaments.  This is not the norm.  I firmly believe that if a mother is at the point of having to chose life over death due to childbirth, I think God would be forgiving of letting the child come back to Him.  That does not mean that I would suggest terminating the pregnancy at the start.  I've seen very small women give birth with little complications.  Aborting the child might leave more emotional scars than the physical scars of actually having it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


That's not what the Roman Catholic Church, or any of the churches in the US say.

When this one 9 year old girl was pregnant with twins due to her stepfather repeatedly raping her, her doctors stated that, if she were to attempt to carry her twins to term, she would undoubtedly die because her body was not fully developed to handle pregnancy: and the off chance that she wouldn't die, she would still be rendered totally sterile, and either way, the twins would never survive.  When the girl was given an abortion, the Cardinal of Brazil excommunicated her mother and her doctors for doing that.  The Vatican still considers her stepfather a good, upstanding member of the Church, though, because he's never performed any abortions.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,18:53

Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,18:44)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,19:31)
Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,18:10)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:46)
 
Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,17:43)
   
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:41)
You know what, Stanton, in '09 in Kansas alone, there were approx. 9,500 abortions.  I'm finding it very hard to believe that the mother/and or children were all in jeopardy due to child birth. "Therapeutic" can mean virtually anything.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It can mean I'll kill myself if I can't get it removed.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


With counseling for the emotional state, it could be removed through natural birth and placed with another family would could better care for it.  9 months isn't a lifetime.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So, is that what you'd suggest for, say, a 9 year old rape victim?  Even though her doctors said that she would probably literally die by the 7th month because her body is just not big or developed to bear children?  That she should just have counseling?

Or, what about a woman whose pregnancy is causing her lungs to fill up with fluid?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Stanton,

These are very unusual predictaments.  This is not the norm.  I firmly believe that if a mother is at the point of having to chose life over death due to childbirth, [b}I think God would be forgiving of letting the child come back to Him.  That does not mean that I would suggest terminating the pregnancy at the start.  I've seen very small women give birth with little complications.  Aborting the child might leave more emotional scars than the physical scars of actually having it.[/b]
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Who are you to decide what I (or any other woman) should do with her uterus?

I assure you that your gods have nothing to do with fertilization.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Khan, I think I stated early on that I'm not going to "decide" what you or any woman does "with her uterus".  I can't force anyone to do anything.  I wouldn't vote either way on an abortion bill.  It's a tricky subject obviously, and all I can do is give my opinion.
Posted by: Stanton on Jan. 23 2011,18:56

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:38)
Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,18:16)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:12)
 
Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,18:03)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:29)
   
Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,17:20)
What I've seen for a long time is that virtually all of the anti-abortion proponents I've encountered neither understand nor care that the primary reasons for abortions are for medical/therapeutic reasons, and not for birth control.

From what I've seen, all they want is for Jesus to have yet another boot-licking minion to boss and kick around; the babies' literally suffering mother be literally damned for all they care.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I've read the statistics many times.  You're wrong, and if you believe your justified in your response, please provided statistics.  Maybe I've missed something.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Like you'd honestly bother to look at any statistic I provided.  As for the statistics you're providing: did you check and find out what reasons those women had for having abortions, or did you just automatically assume that the sole reason was they hate Jesus?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


None of this has anything to do with hating Jesus.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Then how come all other anti-abortion proponents say otherwise?  Why is it that pro-lifers always talk about how their God-hating enemies want to abort every single pregnancy in order to spite Jesus?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Hmmm...I think these type of people are a minority.  This sounds more like hatred for people who are not Christian or who have made choices you disagree with.  That is not what biblical Christianity is about, and it is NOT our place to judge...that is God's job.  But, it is our right to hold our Christian values and share them with others.  It's not intolerance, it's sharing a perspective that we believe is of benefit to others.  We aren't the only ones who share are perspectives....people of all creeds do that regardless of whether they are Christian or not.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Bullshit.

If they're a minority, then why do you have people like Ann Coulter or Rush Limbaugh and other sacred prophets of Conservative Christians, constantly harping about how abortion is the most sacred sacrament of their enemies?  If these people are a minority, then why do you let them speak for you?  If they are a minority, then why do you condone the murder and vandalism and all the other crimes and misdeeds they perpetrate?
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,18:56

Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,18:48)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,19:25)
Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,18:06)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:41)
You know what, Stanton, in '09 in Kansas alone, there were approx. 9,500 abortions.  I'm finding it very hard to believe that the mother/and or children were all in jeopardy due to child birth. "Therapeutic" can mean virtually anything.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So, where did you find out that all of these abortions were done specifically to spite Jesus?  One of those websites that orders fellow Christians go out and murder abortion clinic doctors, their co-workers and their families?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Good grief, where do you come up with these statements?  This has nothing to do with Jesus.  God can forgive any sin.  This is about life...the life of a child.  There are better options...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So are your gods smart enough to not implant 'souls' into fertilized eggs that he/she/it/one of them knew wouldn't make it to birth?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


huh?
Posted by: Stanton on Jan. 23 2011,19:01

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:44)
Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,18:38)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:25)
 
Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,18:06)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:41)
You know what, Stanton, in '09 in Kansas alone, there were approx. 9,500 abortions.  I'm finding it very hard to believe that the mother/and or children were all in jeopardy due to child birth. "Therapeutic" can mean virtually anything.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So, where did you find out that all of these abortions were done specifically to spite Jesus?  One of those websites that orders fellow Christians go out and murder abortion clinic doctors, their co-workers and their families?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Good grief, where do you come up with these statements?  This has nothing to do with Jesus.  God can forgive any sin.  This is about life...the life of a child.  There are better options...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I find them coming out of the mouths of pro-lifers, the Roman Catholic Church and fundamentalist demagogues.

From what I've seen of them, they don't care about the benefit or the condition of the mother at all: if it meant denying an abortion, they'd let her die in agony.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Well, shame on them then.  That is not how Christ would respond.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Far too late for people like Dr George Tiller, who was gunned down in his church in 2009, after he had his clinic vandalized and being threatened nonstop by good Christians who practically applauded upon hearing of his murder.
Posted by: Stanton on Jan. 23 2011,19:04

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:56)
Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,18:48)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,19:25)
 
Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,18:06)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:41)
You know what, Stanton, in '09 in Kansas alone, there were approx. 9,500 abortions.  I'm finding it very hard to believe that the mother/and or children were all in jeopardy due to child birth. "Therapeutic" can mean virtually anything.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So, where did you find out that all of these abortions were done specifically to spite Jesus?  One of those websites that orders fellow Christians go out and murder abortion clinic doctors, their co-workers and their families?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Good grief, where do you come up with these statements?  This has nothing to do with Jesus.  God can forgive any sin.  This is about life...the life of a child.  There are better options...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So are your gods smart enough to not implant 'souls' into fertilized eggs that he/she/it/one of them knew wouldn't make it to birth?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


huh?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


One of the main arguments against abortion is that souls are implanted at the moment of fertilization.
Posted by: Dale_Husband on Jan. 23 2011,19:07

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:05)
You know what?  My aunt (actually my cousin) was the result of what occured due to rape.  My grandmother raised my aunt's daughter as her own.  

She is a wonderful person...is always helping others.  She lives by Mayo hospital and before my Dad passed away, she let us use her home for whatever we needed on our trips back and forth to Mayo.  She does that for many people since she lives so close to the hospital.  

I can't say enough good things about this woman.  I think about all the people who would not have received her love and kindness if her mother had opted to abort her due to a horrible incident such as rape.  Rape doesn't make the child a horrible person by any means, and it didn't ruin my aunt's life to have her.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So on the basis of that one example, you assume that all rape victims who get pregnant can have their babies and then live happily ever after?

If you aunt had a choice, and choose to have the baby, that was her right. It is not for you or some government to tell her she can't have an abortion if she feels she can't deal with the emotional trauma of a pregnancy. That's violating the dignity of the woman TWICE! It is the height of absurdity to put the supposed right to life of a fetus above the right to bodily autonomy of someone who is already born and able to make decisions for herself.

And stop the Godbotting! This isn't about what God would want (no one knows that) or what he would forgive. This is about what federal law, including the U S Constitution itself, allows. It says that "All persons BORN or naturalized....", not conceived in the United States, are citizens. And it is citizens whose rights are protected, not those who are not yet citizens.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,19:10

Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,18:48)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:31)
Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,18:10)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:46)
 
Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,17:43)
   
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:41)
You know what, Stanton, in '09 in Kansas alone, there were approx. 9,500 abortions.  I'm finding it very hard to believe that the mother/and or children were all in jeopardy due to child birth. "Therapeutic" can mean virtually anything.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It can mean I'll kill myself if I can't get it removed.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


With counseling for the emotional state, it could be removed through natural birth and placed with another family would could better care for it.  9 months isn't a lifetime.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So, is that what you'd suggest for, say, a 9 year old rape victim?  Even though her doctors said that she would probably literally die by the 7th month because her body is just not big or developed to bear children?  That she should just have counseling?

Or, what about a woman whose pregnancy is causing her lungs to fill up with fluid?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Stanton,

These are very unusual predictaments.  This is not the norm.  I firmly believe that if a mother is at the point of having to chose life over death due to childbirth, I think God would be forgiving of letting the child come back to Him.  That does not mean that I would suggest terminating the pregnancy at the start.  I've seen very small women give birth with little complications.  Aborting the child might leave more emotional scars than the physical scars of actually having it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


That's not what the Roman Catholic Church, or any of the churches in the US say.

When this one 9 year old girl was pregnant with twins due to her stepfather repeatedly raping her, her doctors stated that, if she were to attempt to carry her twins to term, she would undoubtedly die because her body was not fully developed to handle pregnancy: and the off chance that she wouldn't die, she would still be rendered totally sterile, and either way, the twins would never survive.  When the girl was given an abortion, the Cardinal of Brazil excommunicated her mother and her doctors for doing that.  The Vatican still considers her stepfather a good, upstanding member of the Church, though, because he's never performed any abortions.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I frankly don't care what the Vatican has to say about the matter.  Like I said, personally, I wouldn't suggest terminating any pregnancy regardless of rape, age, fears, whatever.  If the pregnancy comes to the point where the mother is in dire danger of losing her life, then terminate at that point, and sustain the life of the Mother.  If the church excommunicates ya, find another.   I can't speak for God, so I don't know if He would support my beliefs on the subject or not, but as I said, He is a forgiving God, thankfully.

My sister is a social worker and works in a lot of homes with various communicable diseases.  When she was pregnant, she picked up something (and forgive me, but I forget exactly what it was called), and there was a chance that her child could have severe deformities.  Her doctor talked to her about the option of abortion.  My sister had the child, and my nephew is as healthy as a horse.  I know personally, that if I had a severely handicapped child, it would certainly be difficult for me, but I think it would be impossible for my husband.  So, I do empathize with people having to make such heart wrenching decisions, but I would have the child, and deal with whatever is thrown my way.  If I was ultimately unable to handle the situation, there are other who can.  Most of these children, if brought up in a loving, caring environment, bring a lot of joy to their family and friends.  There are things that can be learned through suffering.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,19:16

Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,19:01)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:44)
Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,18:38)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:25)
 
Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,18:06)
   
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:41)
You know what, Stanton, in '09 in Kansas alone, there were approx. 9,500 abortions.  I'm finding it very hard to believe that the mother/and or children were all in jeopardy due to child birth. "Therapeutic" can mean virtually anything.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So, where did you find out that all of these abortions were done specifically to spite Jesus?  One of those websites that orders fellow Christians go out and murder abortion clinic doctors, their co-workers and their families?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Good grief, where do you come up with these statements?  This has nothing to do with Jesus.  God can forgive any sin.  This is about life...the life of a child.  There are better options...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I find them coming out of the mouths of pro-lifers, the Roman Catholic Church and fundamentalist demagogues.

From what I've seen of them, they don't care about the benefit or the condition of the mother at all: if it meant denying an abortion, they'd let her die in agony.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Well, shame on them then.  That is not how Christ would respond.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Far too late for people like Dr George Tiller, who was gunned down in his church in 2009, after he had his clinic vandalized and being threatened nonstop by good Christians who practically applauded upon hearing of his murder.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I'm not one of those who applauded Tiller's murder.  

But, it is difficult reading about the number of abortions Tiller carried out...many late term abortions as well.
Found a couple sites on the statistics of his abortions once....earth shatteringly depressing for me.  Others may not feel the same of course.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,19:19

Quote (Dale_Husband @ Jan. 23 2011,19:07)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:05)
You know what?  My aunt (actually my cousin) was the result of what occured due to rape.  My grandmother raised my aunt's daughter as her own.  

She is a wonderful person...is always helping others.  She lives by Mayo hospital and before my Dad passed away, she let us use her home for whatever we needed on our trips back and forth to Mayo.  She does that for many people since she lives so close to the hospital.  

I can't say enough good things about this woman.  I think about all the people who would not have received her love and kindness if her mother had opted to abort her due to a horrible incident such as rape.  Rape doesn't make the child a horrible person by any means, and it didn't ruin my aunt's life to have her.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So on the basis of that one example, you assume that all rape victims who get pregnant can have their babies and then live happily ever after?

If you aunt had a choice, and choose to have the baby, that was her right. It is not for you or some government to tell her she can't have an abortion if she feels she can't deal with the emotional trauma of a pregnancy. That's violating the dignity of the woman TWICE! It is the height of absurdity to put the supposed right to life of a fetus above the right to bodily autonomy of someone who is already born and able to make decisions for herself.

And stop the Godbotting! This isn't about what God would want (no one knows that) or what he would forgive. This is about what federal law, including the U S Constitution itself, allows. It says that "All persons BORN or naturalized....", not conceived in the United States, are citizens. And it is citizens whose rights are protected, not those who are not yet citizens.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


sigh....Im not making the choice for anyone.  I'm merely sharing my views.  And, no, I won't stop the "Godbotting"...it's who I am.  Just like you share your viewpoints from your perspective or worldview.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,19:37

Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,18:56)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:38)
Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,18:16)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:12)
 
Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,18:03)
   
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:29)
   
Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,17:20)
What I've seen for a long time is that virtually all of the anti-abortion proponents I've encountered neither understand nor care that the primary reasons for abortions are for medical/therapeutic reasons, and not for birth control.

From what I've seen, all they want is for Jesus to have yet another boot-licking minion to boss and kick around; the babies' literally suffering mother be literally damned for all they care.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I've read the statistics many times.  You're wrong, and if you believe your justified in your response, please provided statistics.  Maybe I've missed something.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Like you'd honestly bother to look at any statistic I provided.  As for the statistics you're providing: did you check and find out what reasons those women had for having abortions, or did you just automatically assume that the sole reason was they hate Jesus?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


None of this has anything to do with hating Jesus.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Then how come all other anti-abortion proponents say otherwise?  Why is it that pro-lifers always talk about how their God-hating enemies want to abort every single pregnancy in order to spite Jesus?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Hmmm...I think these type of people are a minority.  This sounds more like hatred for people who are not Christian or who have made choices you disagree with.  That is not what biblical Christianity is about, and it is NOT our place to judge...that is God's job.  But, it is our right to hold our Christian values and share them with others.  It's not intolerance, it's sharing a perspective that we believe is of benefit to others.  We aren't the only ones who share are perspectives....people of all creeds do that regardless of whether they are Christian or not.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Bullshit.

If they're a minority, then why do you have people like Ann Coulter or Rush Limbaugh and other sacred prophets of Conservative Christians, constantly harping about how abortion is the most sacred sacrament of their enemies?  If these people are a minority, then why do you let them speak for you?  If they are a minority, then why do you condone the murder and vandalism and all the other crimes and misdeeds they perpetrate?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Hmmm...I don't know exactly how Limbaugh or Coulter phrase what you're attesting that they have said, nor do I really care.  They can both be very divisive figures.  Although, I don't follow either of them regularly, I've heard them from time to time due to article follow ups from various Internet sources.  I agree with some of the things they say, but disagree with the way they present a lot of it.

#1, no one speaks for me but me.  Freedom of speech applies to all people.  People from the right and the left are going to give their viewpoint.  I'm certainly not going to stop them.
Posted by: Wolfhound on Jan. 23 2011,19:41

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,16:52)
As for abortion, no woman is ever left unscared by a decision like that...it is with her for life.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Actually, FtK, I had abortion 4 years ago.  I got pregnant on purpose, because my partner of nearly nine years had been wheedling for half a decade about wanting children.  So, I finally relented, even though I had misgivings about him as both a father and a lifetime mate due to his insane jealousy, control freak nature, and steady decline toward Right Wing retardation over the years.

Two weeks into the pregnancy, before I knew for certain that I even WAS in such a condition, Psycho Boy decided that my willingness to have a baby MUST have been because I had cheated on him, gotten pregnant, and was trying to cuckold him, making him believe the child was his when it was actaully my lover's.  He screamed at me, called me a slut, told me that I'd better hope I wasn't pregnant because as soon as it was born he wanted a DNA test and if it wasn't his he was "going to punch [my] fucking face in".

So, I told him to go screw himself six ways from Sunday, told him not to let the door hit him in the ass on the way out, took a pregnancy test, found out I WAS pregnant, had to wait an extra week before I could get the chemical abortion, went back, took my pills, had a heavy period, and was MUCH better, thank you very much.

I have NEVER for one second regretted my decision.  I escaped a bad situation with a dangerous man and spared a kid (if I had even been able to carry to term) a miserable existence as an emotional weapon to be used by its mentally unbalanced father who would have NEVER surrendered his parental rights so would have, by law, been involved.

There's a whole website for women with stories like mine.  All who had abortions, and all who don't regret it.  I know that sick people like you rub your hands together with glee at the thought that "one day" we'll be sick with guilt and regret and be "judged".  Don't hold your breath, sister.
Posted by: Badger3k on Jan. 23 2011,19:45

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:25)
Quote (Badger3k @ Jan. 23 2011,16:58)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,15:24)
 
Quote (Dale_Husband @ Jan. 23 2011,14:31)
 
Quote (MadPanda @ FCD,Jan. 21 2011,18:48)
     
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,16:01)
I can't go tell PZ, Rich, he banned my ass years ago.  He doesn't allow dissent.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The first sentence is true.  The second sentence is so obviously false that anyone with a working conscience must blush to see the accusation made: the troll was invited to leave for being trollish, not merely for dissenting.  (Hint: there are practicing Xians who have earned the OM designation, some of whom have been known to tell Dr. Myers that he's full of it.  Funny how they haven't been hit with the banhammer yet.)

So, FTK, since you seem to think that abortion is a bad thing, what mandatory minimum sentence would you embrace for women seeking to terminate problematic pregnancies?

You, Biggy, what's the difference?


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It seems that the issue for anti-abortion fanatics is that they see premarital sex as a sin and thus things like pregnancy and STDs for unmarried girls and women are a punishment for those who sin.

That, in my opinion, degrades the value of children as much as abortion does.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


No, I would disagree that anti-abortion "fanatics" are *against abortion* because they know that premarital sex is a sin.  Nor, do I look at STD's as punishment.  Also, I might add that I, myself, was not a virgin when I married and looking back, I can see the value of being abstinent until marriage. Although, I'd agree that this is a very difficult thing to do, but not impossible.  

Abortion should not be considered birth control, and that is how I see people using it (1).  There are plenty of options out there for birth control.  I don't have any opinion about whether abortion should be legalized or not.  Every woman has to make this choice, I would just hope that they make it wisely.  Personally, I don't think the government should be involved in the issue at all.  

There is a reason why God advises one man/one woman (2).  He is the creator....he knows how we were created to live so that we can live life to the fullest.  Promiscuity leads to endless problems as well as disease.  It's not how we were created to live.  It also tends to make marriage to one person more difficult if people have become accustomed to sleeping with whomever makes us feel good at present.  God didn't make rules to make us miserable, but to help us live healthier life styles.  There are endless stories in the Bible that show what happens when biblical figures had multiple wives or cheated on their spouses.  Good never came of it.   So, it's not God looking down at us and not permitting us to enjoy life by being promiscuous or punishing us for doing so, but rather he is providing us with the forumla for happy healthy relationships.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Bolding mine.

(1) This is the problem.  You think this is how people are using it, but in 43 years of life, I've never met, seen, or heard of anyone who actually sees it like this, short of anti-choice fanatics.  It's a talking point, a way of reducing the person making the choice to someone you can spit on and feel superior to.  It completely ignores reality, even though you seem to realize it on one level.  I do find it odd that you have no opinion whether it should be legalized or not, yet you say that every woman has to make that choice and that the government should not be involved.  Sounds pro-choice to me.

(2) Except for all that Old Testament polygamy thing.  And the forced "marriages" of captured virgins to the people who killed their families.  Marriage to rapists.  Yeah, God must have changed his mind, then.  Like so much else in the Big Book of Multiple Excuses...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Mhmm...okay, just my opinion again...

Let me clarify just a bit regarding using abortion as birth control.  I don't believe that a woman, when she is making love with someone without protection, is thinking "oh, what the hell, if anything happens, I'll have an abortion".  

But, I think that with the rate of abortions we see today, subconsciously, we know there is a way to rid of an unwanted pregnancy if all else fails.  

Let me just add, that this is something that comes to anyone's mind regardless of religion if you are in the that position.  Since it has been legalized by the government, there is ample opportunity to get abortions and I'd bet that abortion numbers are WAY up in comparision to before abortions were legal.  Im sure promiscuity is way up as well.  There is always a way out of it.  And, even people who have been brought up knowing that abortion is wrong may take this avenue because it appears initially as the easy way out.  It's something many regret.  I remember thinking about it myself several months ago, when I thought I might be pregnant.  Im 45...that would not be cool.  All kinds of things crossed my mind.  I think by making abortion so readily available, we kill millions of children every year, when much, much better options are out there.

As for OT polygamy, God did not advise this as a way to live.  It was what was going on at the time.  Many, many wrong or evil things occured historically in the Bible that were not dictated by God.  Yes, there are those *very* few incidences in the OT where God commands something that seems to go against the grain. I cannot answer for God....I don't know all the circumstances, and I cannot know His mind. Overall, the Bible is *very consistent* in God's commands.  There are endless arguments as to how one can justify God's actions in these few circumstances, but in the end, I'll have lots of questions for Him when I hit the pearly gates.   Creation 101 is on the top of my list.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I suspect that any statistics on abortions before they were legal would be a bit understated.  Probably about the same way rape statistics are understated since there are a lot that go unreported.  I did think that abortions were actually down, but don't have any statistics on hand.  I am curious about other cultures as well, since we here in America are often outliers and a little....confused.

We have approx 80 out of 1600 high school kids pregnant right now where I work.  As far as I know, none have considered abortion, and it's not my place or decision to suggest it.  It would have been better if they had learned proper birth control rather than have kids, then have to suffer the economic and educational burden that they didn't need to have.  Kids have never waited, abstinence does not work, but this is straying a bit from the original point, but I use this as a counter-example.

The "it wasn't God's command" apologetics doesn't work.  I was trying to find specific verses, but here's  a quick list from the Skeptics Annotaited Bible (< polygamy >) - all these verses and yet God never said - "stop"?  You're correct in that it was the custom of the time, and as the customs changed, so did the writings found in the Bible.  It is funny to see how YHVH kept changing in time with society, and if it wasn't for Christianity freezing the bible in time, we'd probably have new books detailing new customs and morals instead of people just saying "you need to interpret this in this way...".  The bible is only consistent when looked at through apologetics glasses.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,19:48

Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 23 2011,19:41)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,16:52)
As for abortion, no woman is ever left unscared by a decision like that...it is with her for life.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Actually, FtK, I had abortion 4 years ago.  I got pregnant on purpose, because my partner of nearly nine years had been wheedling for half a decade about wanting children.  So, I finally relented, even though I had misgivings about him as both a father and a lifetime mate due to his insane jealousy, control freak nature, and steady decline toward Right Wing retardation over the years.

Two weeks into the pregnancy, before I knew for certain that I even WAS in such a condition, Psycho Boy decided that my willingness to have a baby MUST have been because I had cheated on him, gotten pregnant, and was trying to cuckold him, making him believe the child was his when it was actaully my lover's.  He screamed at me, called me a slut, told me that I'd better hope I wasn't pregnant because as soon as it was born he wanted a DNA test and if it wasn't his he was "going to punch [my] fucking face in".

So, I told him to go screw himself six ways from Sunday, told him not to let the door hit him in the ass on the way out, took a pregnancy test, found out I WAS pregnant, had to wait an extra week before I could get the chemical abortion, went back, took my pills, had a heavy period, and was MUCH better, thank you very much.

I have NEVER for one second regretted my decision.  I escaped a bad situation with a dangerous man and spared a kid (if I had even been able to carry to term) a miserable existence as an emotional weapon to be used by its mentally unbalanced father who would have NEVER surrendered his parental rights so would have, by law, been involved.

There's a whole website for women with stories like mine.  All who had abortions, and all who don't regret it.  I know that sick people like you rub your hands together with glee at the thought that "one day" we'll be sick with guilt and regret and be "judged".  Don't hold your breath, sister.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I'm glad it worked out for you.  Sorry about all the shit you went through.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,19:53

Quote (Badger3k @ Jan. 23 2011,19:45)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:25)
Quote (Badger3k @ Jan. 23 2011,16:58)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,15:24)
 
Quote (Dale_Husband @ Jan. 23 2011,14:31)
   
Quote (MadPanda @ FCD,Jan. 21 2011,18:48)
     
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,16:01)
I can't go tell PZ, Rich, he banned my ass years ago.  He doesn't allow dissent.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The first sentence is true.  The second sentence is so obviously false that anyone with a working conscience must blush to see the accusation made: the troll was invited to leave for being trollish, not merely for dissenting.  (Hint: there are practicing Xians who have earned the OM designation, some of whom have been known to tell Dr. Myers that he's full of it.  Funny how they haven't been hit with the banhammer yet.)

So, FTK, since you seem to think that abortion is a bad thing, what mandatory minimum sentence would you embrace for women seeking to terminate problematic pregnancies?

You, Biggy, what's the difference?


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It seems that the issue for anti-abortion fanatics is that they see premarital sex as a sin and thus things like pregnancy and STDs for unmarried girls and women are a punishment for those who sin.

That, in my opinion, degrades the value of children as much as abortion does.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


No, I would disagree that anti-abortion "fanatics" are *against abortion* because they know that premarital sex is a sin.  Nor, do I look at STD's as punishment.  Also, I might add that I, myself, was not a virgin when I married and looking back, I can see the value of being abstinent until marriage. Although, I'd agree that this is a very difficult thing to do, but not impossible.  

Abortion should not be considered birth control, and that is how I see people using it (1).  There are plenty of options out there for birth control.  I don't have any opinion about whether abortion should be legalized or not.  Every woman has to make this choice, I would just hope that they make it wisely.  Personally, I don't think the government should be involved in the issue at all.  

There is a reason why God advises one man/one woman (2).  He is the creator....he knows how we were created to live so that we can live life to the fullest.  Promiscuity leads to endless problems as well as disease.  It's not how we were created to live.  It also tends to make marriage to one person more difficult if people have become accustomed to sleeping with whomever makes us feel good at present.  God didn't make rules to make us miserable, but to help us live healthier life styles.  There are endless stories in the Bible that show what happens when biblical figures had multiple wives or cheated on their spouses.  Good never came of it.   So, it's not God looking down at us and not permitting us to enjoy life by being promiscuous or punishing us for doing so, but rather he is providing us with the forumla for happy healthy relationships.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Bolding mine.

(1) This is the problem.  You think this is how people are using it, but in 43 years of life, I've never met, seen, or heard of anyone who actually sees it like this, short of anti-choice fanatics.  It's a talking point, a way of reducing the person making the choice to someone you can spit on and feel superior to.  It completely ignores reality, even though you seem to realize it on one level.  I do find it odd that you have no opinion whether it should be legalized or not, yet you say that every woman has to make that choice and that the government should not be involved.  Sounds pro-choice to me.

(2) Except for all that Old Testament polygamy thing.  And the forced "marriages" of captured virgins to the people who killed their families.  Marriage to rapists.  Yeah, God must have changed his mind, then.  Like so much else in the Big Book of Multiple Excuses...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Mhmm...okay, just my opinion again...

Let me clarify just a bit regarding using abortion as birth control.  I don't believe that a woman, when she is making love with someone without protection, is thinking "oh, what the hell, if anything happens, I'll have an abortion".  

But, I think that with the rate of abortions we see today, subconsciously, we know there is a way to rid of an unwanted pregnancy if all else fails.  

Let me just add, that this is something that comes to anyone's mind regardless of religion if you are in the that position.  Since it has been legalized by the government, there is ample opportunity to get abortions and I'd bet that abortion numbers are WAY up in comparision to before abortions were legal.  Im sure promiscuity is way up as well.  There is always a way out of it.  And, even people who have been brought up knowing that abortion is wrong may take this avenue because it appears initially as the easy way out.  It's something many regret.  I remember thinking about it myself several months ago, when I thought I might be pregnant.  Im 45...that would not be cool.  All kinds of things crossed my mind.  I think by making abortion so readily available, we kill millions of children every year, when much, much better options are out there.

As for OT polygamy, God did not advise this as a way to live.  It was what was going on at the time.  Many, many wrong or evil things occured historically in the Bible that were not dictated by God.  Yes, there are those *very* few incidences in the OT where God commands something that seems to go against the grain. I cannot answer for God....I don't know all the circumstances, and I cannot know His mind. Overall, the Bible is *very consistent* in God's commands.  There are endless arguments as to how one can justify God's actions in these few circumstances, but in the end, I'll have lots of questions for Him when I hit the pearly gates.   Creation 101 is on the top of my list.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I suspect that any statistics on abortions before they were legal would be a bit understated.  Probably about the same way rape statistics are understated since there are a lot that go unreported.  I did think that abortions were actually down, but don't have any statistics on hand.  I am curious about other cultures as well, since we here in America are often outliers and a little....confused.

We have approx 80 out of 1600 high school kids pregnant right now where I work.  As far as I know, none have considered abortion, and it's not my place or decision to suggest it.  It would have been better if they had learned proper birth control rather than have kids, then have to suffer the economic and educational burden that they didn't need to have.  Kids have never waited, abstinence does not work, but this is straying a bit from the original point, but I use this as a counter-example.

The "it wasn't God's command" apologetics doesn't work.  I was trying to find specific verses, but here's  a quick list from the Skeptics Annotaited Bible (< polygamy >) - all these verses and yet God never said - "stop"?  You're correct in that it was the custom of the time, and as the customs changed, so did the writings found in the Bible.  It is funny to see how YHVH kept changing in time with society, and if it wasn't for Christianity freezing the bible in time, we'd probably have new books detailing new customs and morals instead of people just saying "you need to interpret this in this way...".  The bible is only consistent when looked at through apologetics glasses.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Free will Badger....seeing how people respond today to God's will, I don't think telling them to 'stop' would have accomplished a thing.  He doesn't change His laws...we do.
Posted by: Badger3k on Jan. 23 2011,19:54

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:49)
Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,17:47)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:46)
 
Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,17:43)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:41)
You know what, Stanton, in '09 in Kansas alone, there were approx. 9,500 abortions.  I'm finding it very hard to believe that the mother/and or children were all in jeopardy due to child birth. "Therapeutic" can mean virtually anything.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It can mean I'll kill myself if I can't get it removed.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


With counseling for the emotional state, it could be removed through natural birth and placed with another family would could better care for it.  9 months isn't a lifetime.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Oh shit!
A forced-birther spotted in the wild.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It's an option.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


"forced birth" is an option?  Srsly?   Of course, if you are saying that a woman can give the child up - that's always been an option.  Just as abortion is.

But, you're willing to foot the bill for the medical necessities, the problems that may arise with work or school, the food and care of the mother - nutrition is important, as well as pay her for the time and any suffering she may undergo, plus pay for the adoption agency, the upkeep of the child, as well as ensure that the child will be adopted?  I wonder what the adoption rate is for children of all colors and social backgrounds...not to mention the problems that children who are adopted have later in life, the lack of medical history, the sense of being different or wondering who your real parents are (I'm not, but I know some who are, so this is anecdotal).

You're munificence in offering to take care of these women is astounding.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,19:59

Quote (Badger3k @ Jan. 23 2011,19:54)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:49)
Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,17:47)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:46)
 
Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,17:43)
   
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:41)
You know what, Stanton, in '09 in Kansas alone, there were approx. 9,500 abortions.  I'm finding it very hard to believe that the mother/and or children were all in jeopardy due to child birth. "Therapeutic" can mean virtually anything.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It can mean I'll kill myself if I can't get it removed.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


With counseling for the emotional state, it could be removed through natural birth and placed with another family would could better care for it.  9 months isn't a lifetime.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Oh shit!
A forced-birther spotted in the wild.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It's an option.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


"forced birth" is an option?  Srsly?   Of course, if you are saying that a woman can give the child up - that's always been an option.  Just as abortion is.

But, you're willing to foot the bill for the medical necessities, the problems that may arise with work or school, the food and care of the mother - nutrition is important, as well as pay her for the time and any suffering she may undergo, plus pay for the adoption agency, the upkeep of the child, as well as ensure that the child will be adopted?  I wonder what the adoption rate is for children of all colors and social backgrounds...not to mention the problems that children who are adopted have later in life, the lack of medical history, the sense of being different or wondering who your real parents are (I'm not, but I know some who are, so this is anecdotal).

You're munificence in offering to take care of these women is astounding.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


There are an endless number of people willing to adopt these children and foot the bills.  As for adopted children wondering about their past.  You know what?  We all have issues to deal with.  This won't be the only difficult issue in their lives.  I'd bet all my marbles that, if nothing else, they are glad they are alive rather than never given the chance to live.
Posted by: Badger3k on Jan. 23 2011,20:06

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:23)
Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,18:05)
Quote (Dale_Husband @ Jan. 23 2011,18:49)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:46)
   
Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,17:43)
     
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:41)
You know what, Stanton, in '09 in Kansas alone, there were approx. 9,500 abortions.  I'm finding it very hard to believe that the mother/and or children were all in jeopardy due to child birth. "Therapeutic" can mean virtually anything.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It can mean I'll kill myself if I can't get it removed.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


With counseling for the emotional state, it could be removed through natural birth and placed with another family would could better care for it.  9 months isn't a lifetime.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Gee, your idiocy and lack of empathy for pregnant women, especially rape and incest victims, just becomes all the more obvious.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


How many of those hundreds of thousands of precious ones in foster care has she adopted?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


In this day and age, there no reason whatsoever that there should be hundreds and thousands of children to be adopted.  

Stop abortion, practise birth control.  It's simple.  

All this to do about abortion should just be silenced on both sides.  Birth control should be taught as well as abstinence.  Preferably, parents should get their act together and talk to their children...keep an eye out for them and what they are involved in.  And, schools should teach birth control, and they do.  Abstinence should be #1 on the list, imho.  But, by all means teach the rest of it.  That doesn't mean we need to bring out teh bananas and pass out the condoms or give out birth control pills.  

Children shouldn't be having sex...if they are mature enough to have it, they should be mature enough to go get the protection they need, not have it given to them like candy.  We need to teach our kids responsibility early on.  I've told both mine everything about sex, and I've told them the best is to abstain, but for goodness sakes, if you're getting into situations that you can't control.....GET BIRTH CONTROL.

The media certainly doesn't help, and attitudes like SD are harmful as well, because it makes kids feel that, to be the stud muffin, they have to have years of practise and multiple partners to enjoy sex.  Ridiculous and unhealthy.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


This I can actually agree with - but abortion needs to stay an option.  I'm glad you disagree with the Republicans and the Abstinence-Only crowd and agree with reality on this - studies have shown that by teaching safe, effective birth control, unwanted pregnancies, abortions, and STDs are all reduced.
Posted by: Badger3k on Jan. 23 2011,20:29

Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,18:48)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:31)
Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,18:10)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:46)
 
Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,17:43)
   
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:41)
You know what, Stanton, in '09 in Kansas alone, there were approx. 9,500 abortions.  I'm finding it very hard to believe that the mother/and or children were all in jeopardy due to child birth. "Therapeutic" can mean virtually anything.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It can mean I'll kill myself if I can't get it removed.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


With counseling for the emotional state, it could be removed through natural birth and placed with another family would could better care for it.  9 months isn't a lifetime.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So, is that what you'd suggest for, say, a 9 year old rape victim?  Even though her doctors said that she would probably literally die by the 7th month because her body is just not big or developed to bear children?  That she should just have counseling?

Or, what about a woman whose pregnancy is causing her lungs to fill up with fluid?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Stanton,

These are very unusual predictaments.  This is not the norm.  I firmly believe that if a mother is at the point of having to chose life over death due to childbirth, I think God would be forgiving of letting the child come back to Him.  That does not mean that I would suggest terminating the pregnancy at the start.  I've seen very small women give birth with little complications.  Aborting the child might leave more emotional scars than the physical scars of actually having it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


That's not what the Roman Catholic Church, or any of the churches in the US say.

When this one 9 year old girl was pregnant with twins due to her stepfather repeatedly raping her, her doctors stated that, if she were to attempt to carry her twins to term, she would undoubtedly die because her body was not fully developed to handle pregnancy: and the off chance that she wouldn't die, she would still be rendered totally sterile, and either way, the twins would never survive.  When the girl was given an abortion, the Cardinal of Brazil excommunicated her mother and her doctors for doing that.  The Vatican still considers her stepfather a good, upstanding member of the Church, though, because he's never performed any abortions.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Look at what the Bishop of Pheonix said (< regardless of the cost >).

Besides, if you make abortions illegal, even with regards to rape of children, then priests can be celibate and still have kids!
Posted by: Badger3k on Jan. 23 2011,20:42

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,19:53)
Quote (Badger3k @ Jan. 23 2011,19:45)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:25)
 
Quote (Badger3k @ Jan. 23 2011,16:58)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,15:24)
   
Quote (Dale_Husband @ Jan. 23 2011,14:31)
   
Quote (MadPanda @ FCD,Jan. 21 2011,18:48)
       
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,16:01)
I can't go tell PZ, Rich, he banned my ass years ago.  He doesn't allow dissent.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The first sentence is true.  The second sentence is so obviously false that anyone with a working conscience must blush to see the accusation made: the troll was invited to leave for being trollish, not merely for dissenting.  (Hint: there are practicing Xians who have earned the OM designation, some of whom have been known to tell Dr. Myers that he's full of it.  Funny how they haven't been hit with the banhammer yet.)

So, FTK, since you seem to think that abortion is a bad thing, what mandatory minimum sentence would you embrace for women seeking to terminate problematic pregnancies?

You, Biggy, what's the difference?


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It seems that the issue for anti-abortion fanatics is that they see premarital sex as a sin and thus things like pregnancy and STDs for unmarried girls and women are a punishment for those who sin.

That, in my opinion, degrades the value of children as much as abortion does.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


No, I would disagree that anti-abortion "fanatics" are *against abortion* because they know that premarital sex is a sin.  Nor, do I look at STD's as punishment.  Also, I might add that I, myself, was not a virgin when I married and looking back, I can see the value of being abstinent until marriage. Although, I'd agree that this is a very difficult thing to do, but not impossible.  

Abortion should not be considered birth control, and that is how I see people using it (1).  There are plenty of options out there for birth control.  I don't have any opinion about whether abortion should be legalized or not.  Every woman has to make this choice, I would just hope that they make it wisely.  Personally, I don't think the government should be involved in the issue at all.  

There is a reason why God advises one man/one woman (2).  He is the creator....he knows how we were created to live so that we can live life to the fullest.  Promiscuity leads to endless problems as well as disease.  It's not how we were created to live.  It also tends to make marriage to one person more difficult if people have become accustomed to sleeping with whomever makes us feel good at present.  God didn't make rules to make us miserable, but to help us live healthier life styles.  There are endless stories in the Bible that show what happens when biblical figures had multiple wives or cheated on their spouses.  Good never came of it.   So, it's not God looking down at us and not permitting us to enjoy life by being promiscuous or punishing us for doing so, but rather he is providing us with the forumla for happy healthy relationships.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Bolding mine.

(1) This is the problem.  You think this is how people are using it, but in 43 years of life, I've never met, seen, or heard of anyone who actually sees it like this, short of anti-choice fanatics.  It's a talking point, a way of reducing the person making the choice to someone you can spit on and feel superior to.  It completely ignores reality, even though you seem to realize it on one level.  I do find it odd that you have no opinion whether it should be legalized or not, yet you say that every woman has to make that choice and that the government should not be involved.  Sounds pro-choice to me.

(2) Except for all that Old Testament polygamy thing.  And the forced "marriages" of captured virgins to the people who killed their families.  Marriage to rapists.  Yeah, God must have changed his mind, then.  Like so much else in the Big Book of Multiple Excuses...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Mhmm...okay, just my opinion again...

Let me clarify just a bit regarding using abortion as birth control.  I don't believe that a woman, when she is making love with someone without protection, is thinking "oh, what the hell, if anything happens, I'll have an abortion".  

But, I think that with the rate of abortions we see today, subconsciously, we know there is a way to rid of an unwanted pregnancy if all else fails.  

Let me just add, that this is something that comes to anyone's mind regardless of religion if you are in the that position.  Since it has been legalized by the government, there is ample opportunity to get abortions and I'd bet that abortion numbers are WAY up in comparision to before abortions were legal.  Im sure promiscuity is way up as well.  There is always a way out of it.  And, even people who have been brought up knowing that abortion is wrong may take this avenue because it appears initially as the easy way out.  It's something many regret.  I remember thinking about it myself several months ago, when I thought I might be pregnant.  Im 45...that would not be cool.  All kinds of things crossed my mind.  I think by making abortion so readily available, we kill millions of children every year, when much, much better options are out there.

As for OT polygamy, God did not advise this as a way to live.  It was what was going on at the time.  Many, many wrong or evil things occured historically in the Bible that were not dictated by God.  Yes, there are those *very* few incidences in the OT where God commands something that seems to go against the grain. I cannot answer for God....I don't know all the circumstances, and I cannot know His mind. Overall, the Bible is *very consistent* in God's commands.  There are endless arguments as to how one can justify God's actions in these few circumstances, but in the end, I'll have lots of questions for Him when I hit the pearly gates.   Creation 101 is on the top of my list.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I suspect that any statistics on abortions before they were legal would be a bit understated.  Probably about the same way rape statistics are understated since there are a lot that go unreported.  I did think that abortions were actually down, but don't have any statistics on hand.  I am curious about other cultures as well, since we here in America are often outliers and a little....confused.

We have approx 80 out of 1600 high school kids pregnant right now where I work.  As far as I know, none have considered abortion, and it's not my place or decision to suggest it.  It would have been better if they had learned proper birth control rather than have kids, then have to suffer the economic and educational burden that they didn't need to have.  Kids have never waited, abstinence does not work, but this is straying a bit from the original point, but I use this as a counter-example.

The "it wasn't God's command" apologetics doesn't work.  I was trying to find specific verses, but here's  a quick list from the Skeptics Annotaited Bible (< polygamy >) - all these verses and yet God never said - "stop"?  You're correct in that it was the custom of the time, and as the customs changed, so did the writings found in the Bible.  It is funny to see how YHVH kept changing in time with society, and if it wasn't for Christianity freezing the bible in time, we'd probably have new books detailing new customs and morals instead of people just saying "you need to interpret this in this way...".  The bible is only consistent when looked at through apologetics glasses.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Free will Badger....seeing how people respond today to God's will, I don't think telling them to 'stop' would have accomplished a thing.  He doesn't change His laws...we do.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


If you believe that God knows everything, then there is no free will.  If you believe that God has a plan for everyone, or there is such a thing as destiny...no free will.

The Free Will Defense is a standard apologetic for the problem of evil, and it fails there.  It fails with what I was saying anyway since the Bible itself shows changing cultural mores (and morality) over time.  If you consider the bible to be divine or inspired in any way, then you are left with the argument that God has indeed changed his laws, or else he has let others change them, and put his seal of approval on those changes.  Which is it?

Plus, read up in neuroscience - there is a lot there that strongly implies that what used to be called free will isn't really any such thing.  Although to be fair, we'd have to start out with a definition of free will and go from there.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,20:51

Quote (Badger3k @ Jan. 23 2011,20:29)
Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,18:48)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:31)
 
Quote (Stanton @ Jan. 23 2011,18:10)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:46)
   
Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,17:43)
   
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:41)
You know what, Stanton, in '09 in Kansas alone, there were approx. 9,500 abortions.  I'm finding it very hard to believe that the mother/and or children were all in jeopardy due to child birth. "Therapeutic" can mean virtually anything.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It can mean I'll kill myself if I can't get it removed.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


With counseling for the emotional state, it could be removed through natural birth and placed with another family would could better care for it.  9 months isn't a lifetime.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So, is that what you'd suggest for, say, a 9 year old rape victim?  Even though her doctors said that she would probably literally die by the 7th month because her body is just not big or developed to bear children?  That she should just have counseling?

Or, what about a woman whose pregnancy is causing her lungs to fill up with fluid?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Stanton,

These are very unusual predictaments.  This is not the norm.  I firmly believe that if a mother is at the point of having to chose life over death due to childbirth, I think God would be forgiving of letting the child come back to Him.  That does not mean that I would suggest terminating the pregnancy at the start.  I've seen very small women give birth with little complications.  Aborting the child might leave more emotional scars than the physical scars of actually having it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


That's not what the Roman Catholic Church, or any of the churches in the US say.

When this one 9 year old girl was pregnant with twins due to her stepfather repeatedly raping her, her doctors stated that, if she were to attempt to carry her twins to term, she would undoubtedly die because her body was not fully developed to handle pregnancy: and the off chance that she wouldn't die, she would still be rendered totally sterile, and either way, the twins would never survive.  When the girl was given an abortion, the Cardinal of Brazil excommunicated her mother and her doctors for doing that.  The Vatican still considers her stepfather a good, upstanding member of the Church, though, because he's never performed any abortions.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Look at what the Bishop of Pheonix said (< regardless of the cost >).

Besides, if you make abortions illegal, even with regards to rape of children, then priests can be celibate and still have kids!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Hmmm....difficult situation to say the least.  I'd have to check scripture more closely, but as far as I know, there aren't any detailed suggestions or laws about situations like this.  

I've given my viewpoint about upholding the life of the mother over the child if it comes to that.  But, I don't think pregnancy should be terminated until it is medically certain that the Mother is going to lose her life.  This may put the Mother at some risk waiting, but it's the best option, imho.  No, I'm not demanding anyone to take my point of view, so hush.  I'm stating my opinion.

There are whispers and their are shouts in the Bible.  We're better off abiding by the shouts and not arguing so vehemently about the whispers....if that makes sense.  Some Christians need to step back and take a breath before they judge so harshly.  It's not their job.
Posted by: Badger3k on Jan. 23 2011,20:58

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,19:59)
Quote (Badger3k @ Jan. 23 2011,19:54)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:49)
 
Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,17:47)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:46)
   
Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,17:43)
   
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:41)
You know what, Stanton, in '09 in Kansas alone, there were approx. 9,500 abortions.  I'm finding it very hard to believe that the mother/and or children were all in jeopardy due to child birth. "Therapeutic" can mean virtually anything.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It can mean I'll kill myself if I can't get it removed.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


With counseling for the emotional state, it could be removed through natural birth and placed with another family would could better care for it.  9 months isn't a lifetime.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Oh shit!
A forced-birther spotted in the wild.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It's an option.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


"forced birth" is an option?  Srsly?   Of course, if you are saying that a woman can give the child up - that's always been an option.  Just as abortion is.

But, you're willing to foot the bill for the medical necessities, the problems that may arise with work or school, the food and care of the mother - nutrition is important, as well as pay her for the time and any suffering she may undergo, plus pay for the adoption agency, the upkeep of the child, as well as ensure that the child will be adopted?  I wonder what the adoption rate is for children of all colors and social backgrounds...not to mention the problems that children who are adopted have later in life, the lack of medical history, the sense of being different or wondering who your real parents are (I'm not, but I know some who are, so this is anecdotal).

You're munificence in offering to take care of these women is astounding.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


There are an endless number of people willing to adopt these children and foot the bills.  As for adopted children wondering about their past.  You know what?  We all have issues to deal with.  This won't be the only difficult issue in their lives.  I'd bet all my marbles that, if nothing else, they are glad they are alive rather than never given the chance to live.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


An endless number of people willing to take in children, which is why adoption agencies and the foster care system is overflowing with children, many of whom are repeats - I guess they come with a warranty?  Oddly enough, these "endless number of people" seem to prefer a certain type of child, and if you are not one of them, usually white, then...well, the numbers drop big time.  Same with those religious nutjobs who want to prevent gays from adopting children and giving them a loving home.  Apparently there are enough people that we can afford to refuse placing children with healthy, stable families.

As for the "glad they are alive" - seriously?  That's like the "how would you feel if you had been aborted" argument - if I had been aborted, then there never would have been any me, and therefore no one to feel anything - what a stupid question!  Adopted and foster kids have many problems that non-A&F kids don't have - that's a fact.  Whether they are glad to be alive or not is irreelevant to that fact.  There are people who run "adoption farms", where there are more kids than the Duggars, and there are families who adopt/foster just for the money, so it's not all a bed of roses.  This is a side argument, though, and not central to the choice argument.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,20:58

Quote (Badger3k @ Jan. 23 2011,20:42)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,19:53)
Quote (Badger3k @ Jan. 23 2011,19:45)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:25)
 
Quote (Badger3k @ Jan. 23 2011,16:58)
   
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,15:24)
   
Quote (Dale_Husband @ Jan. 23 2011,14:31)
     
Quote (MadPanda @ FCD,Jan. 21 2011,18:48)
       
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,16:01)
I can't go tell PZ, Rich, he banned my ass years ago.  He doesn't allow dissent.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The first sentence is true.  The second sentence is so obviously false that anyone with a working conscience must blush to see the accusation made: the troll was invited to leave for being trollish, not merely for dissenting.  (Hint: there are practicing Xians who have earned the OM designation, some of whom have been known to tell Dr. Myers that he's full of it.  Funny how they haven't been hit with the banhammer yet.)

So, FTK, since you seem to think that abortion is a bad thing, what mandatory minimum sentence would you embrace for women seeking to terminate problematic pregnancies?

You, Biggy, what's the difference?


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It seems that the issue for anti-abortion fanatics is that they see premarital sex as a sin and thus things like pregnancy and STDs for unmarried girls and women are a punishment for those who sin.

That, in my opinion, degrades the value of children as much as abortion does.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


No, I would disagree that anti-abortion "fanatics" are *against abortion* because they know that premarital sex is a sin.  Nor, do I look at STD's as punishment.  Also, I might add that I, myself, was not a virgin when I married and looking back, I can see the value of being abstinent until marriage. Although, I'd agree that this is a very difficult thing to do, but not impossible.  

Abortion should not be considered birth control, and that is how I see people using it (1).  There are plenty of options out there for birth control.  I don't have any opinion about whether abortion should be legalized or not.  Every woman has to make this choice, I would just hope that they make it wisely.  Personally, I don't think the government should be involved in the issue at all.  

There is a reason why God advises one man/one woman (2).  He is the creator....he knows how we were created to live so that we can live life to the fullest.  Promiscuity leads to endless problems as well as disease.  It's not how we were created to live.  It also tends to make marriage to one person more difficult if people have become accustomed to sleeping with whomever makes us feel good at present.  God didn't make rules to make us miserable, but to help us live healthier life styles.  There are endless stories in the Bible that show what happens when biblical figures had multiple wives or cheated on their spouses.  Good never came of it.   So, it's not God looking down at us and not permitting us to enjoy life by being promiscuous or punishing us for doing so, but rather he is providing us with the forumla for happy healthy relationships.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Bolding mine.

(1) This is the problem.  You think this is how people are using it, but in 43 years of life, I've never met, seen, or heard of anyone who actually sees it like this, short of anti-choice fanatics.  It's a talking point, a way of reducing the person making the choice to someone you can spit on and feel superior to.  It completely ignores reality, even though you seem to realize it on one level.  I do find it odd that you have no opinion whether it should be legalized or not, yet you say that every woman has to make that choice and that the government should not be involved.  Sounds pro-choice to me.

(2) Except for all that Old Testament polygamy thing.  And the forced "marriages" of captured virgins to the people who killed their families.  Marriage to rapists.  Yeah, God must have changed his mind, then.  Like so much else in the Big Book of Multiple Excuses...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Mhmm...okay, just my opinion again...

Let me clarify just a bit regarding using abortion as birth control.  I don't believe that a woman, when she is making love with someone without protection, is thinking "oh, what the hell, if anything happens, I'll have an abortion".  

But, I think that with the rate of abortions we see today, subconsciously, we know there is a way to rid of an unwanted pregnancy if all else fails.  

Let me just add, that this is something that comes to anyone's mind regardless of religion if you are in the that position.  Since it has been legalized by the government, there is ample opportunity to get abortions and I'd bet that abortion numbers are WAY up in comparision to before abortions were legal.  Im sure promiscuity is way up as well.  There is always a way out of it.  And, even people who have been brought up knowing that abortion is wrong may take this avenue because it appears initially as the easy way out.  It's something many regret.  I remember thinking about it myself several months ago, when I thought I might be pregnant.  Im 45...that would not be cool.  All kinds of things crossed my mind.  I think by making abortion so readily available, we kill millions of children every year, when much, much better options are out there.

As for OT polygamy, God did not advise this as a way to live.  It was what was going on at the time.  Many, many wrong or evil things occured historically in the Bible that were not dictated by God.  Yes, there are those *very* few incidences in the OT where God commands something that seems to go against the grain. I cannot answer for God....I don't know all the circumstances, and I cannot know His mind. Overall, the Bible is *very consistent* in God's commands.  There are endless arguments as to how one can justify God's actions in these few circumstances, but in the end, I'll have lots of questions for Him when I hit the pearly gates.   Creation 101 is on the top of my list.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I suspect that any statistics on abortions before they were legal would be a bit understated.  Probably about the same way rape statistics are understated since there are a lot that go unreported.  I did think that abortions were actually down, but don't have any statistics on hand.  I am curious about other cultures as well, since we here in America are often outliers and a little....confused.

We have approx 80 out of 1600 high school kids pregnant right now where I work.  As far as I know, none have considered abortion, and it's not my place or decision to suggest it.  It would have been better if they had learned proper birth control rather than have kids, then have to suffer the economic and educational burden that they didn't need to have.  Kids have never waited, abstinence does not work, but this is straying a bit from the original point, but I use this as a counter-example.

The "it wasn't God's command" apologetics doesn't work.  I was trying to find specific verses, but here's  a quick list from the Skeptics Annotaited Bible (< polygamy >) - all these verses and yet God never said - "stop"?  You're correct in that it was the custom of the time, and as the customs changed, so did the writings found in the Bible.  It is funny to see how YHVH kept changing in time with society, and if it wasn't for Christianity freezing the bible in time, we'd probably have new books detailing new customs and morals instead of people just saying "you need to interpret this in this way...".  The bible is only consistent when looked at through apologetics glasses.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Free will Badger....seeing how people respond today to God's will, I don't think telling them to 'stop' would have accomplished a thing.  He doesn't change His laws...we do.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


If you believe that God knows everything, then there is no free will.  If you believe that God has a plan for everyone, or there is such a thing as destiny...no free will.

The Free Will Defense is a standard apologetic for the problem of evil, and it fails there.  It fails with what I was saying anyway since the Bible itself shows changing cultural mores (and morality) over time.  If you consider the bible to be divine or inspired in any way, then you are left with the argument that God has indeed changed his laws, or else he has let others change them, and put his seal of approval on those changes.  Which is it?

Plus, read up in neuroscience - there is a lot there that strongly implies that what used to be called free will isn't really any such thing.  Although to be fair, we'd have to start out with a definition of free will and go from there.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I have no interest in getting into a debate over free will.  There are so many arguments for and against.  In the end, we believe God allows us to make choices aside from his will or we don't.  Doesn't matter what we think, God is God....He's the Creator...He'll do what's best for us in the end, and all He asks in return is that we try our best to follow Him.  He's not asking for perfection.

I know that is complete nonsense to you, and that's fine.  No sense in arguing over it.
Posted by: Badger3k on Jan. 23 2011,21:17

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,20:58)
Quote (Badger3k @ Jan. 23 2011,20:42)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,19:53)
 
Quote (Badger3k @ Jan. 23 2011,19:45)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:25)
   
Quote (Badger3k @ Jan. 23 2011,16:58)
   
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,15:24)
     
Quote (Dale_Husband @ Jan. 23 2011,14:31)
     
Quote (MadPanda @ FCD,Jan. 21 2011,18:48)
         
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,16:01)
I can't go tell PZ, Rich, he banned my ass years ago.  He doesn't allow dissent.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The first sentence is true.  The second sentence is so obviously false that anyone with a working conscience must blush to see the accusation made: the troll was invited to leave for being trollish, not merely for dissenting.  (Hint: there are practicing Xians who have earned the OM designation, some of whom have been known to tell Dr. Myers that he's full of it.  Funny how they haven't been hit with the banhammer yet.)

So, FTK, since you seem to think that abortion is a bad thing, what mandatory minimum sentence would you embrace for women seeking to terminate problematic pregnancies?

You, Biggy, what's the difference?


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It seems that the issue for anti-abortion fanatics is that they see premarital sex as a sin and thus things like pregnancy and STDs for unmarried girls and women are a punishment for those who sin.

That, in my opinion, degrades the value of children as much as abortion does.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


No, I would disagree that anti-abortion "fanatics" are *against abortion* because they know that premarital sex is a sin.  Nor, do I look at STD's as punishment.  Also, I might add that I, myself, was not a virgin when I married and looking back, I can see the value of being abstinent until marriage. Although, I'd agree that this is a very difficult thing to do, but not impossible.  

Abortion should not be considered birth control, and that is how I see people using it (1).  There are plenty of options out there for birth control.  I don't have any opinion about whether abortion should be legalized or not.  Every woman has to make this choice, I would just hope that they make it wisely.  Personally, I don't think the government should be involved in the issue at all.  

There is a reason why God advises one man/one woman (2).  He is the creator....he knows how we were created to live so that we can live life to the fullest.  Promiscuity leads to endless problems as well as disease.  It's not how we were created to live.  It also tends to make marriage to one person more difficult if people have become accustomed to sleeping with whomever makes us feel good at present.  God didn't make rules to make us miserable, but to help us live healthier life styles.  There are endless stories in the Bible that show what happens when biblical figures had multiple wives or cheated on their spouses.  Good never came of it.   So, it's not God looking down at us and not permitting us to enjoy life by being promiscuous or punishing us for doing so, but rather he is providing us with the forumla for happy healthy relationships.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Bolding mine.

(1) This is the problem.  You think this is how people are using it, but in 43 years of life, I've never met, seen, or heard of anyone who actually sees it like this, short of anti-choice fanatics.  It's a talking point, a way of reducing the person making the choice to someone you can spit on and feel superior to.  It completely ignores reality, even though you seem to realize it on one level.  I do find it odd that you have no opinion whether it should be legalized or not, yet you say that every woman has to make that choice and that the government should not be involved.  Sounds pro-choice to me.

(2) Except for all that Old Testament polygamy thing.  And the forced "marriages" of captured virgins to the people who killed their families.  Marriage to rapists.  Yeah, God must have changed his mind, then.  Like so much else in the Big Book of Multiple Excuses...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Mhmm...okay, just my opinion again...

Let me clarify just a bit regarding using abortion as birth control.  I don't believe that a woman, when she is making love with someone without protection, is thinking "oh, what the hell, if anything happens, I'll have an abortion".  

But, I think that with the rate of abortions we see today, subconsciously, we know there is a way to rid of an unwanted pregnancy if all else fails.  

Let me just add, that this is something that comes to anyone's mind regardless of religion if you are in the that position.  Since it has been legalized by the government, there is ample opportunity to get abortions and I'd bet that abortion numbers are WAY up in comparision to before abortions were legal.  Im sure promiscuity is way up as well.  There is always a way out of it.  And, even people who have been brought up knowing that abortion is wrong may take this avenue because it appears initially as the easy way out.  It's something many regret.  I remember thinking about it myself several months ago, when I thought I might be pregnant.  Im 45...that would not be cool.  All kinds of things crossed my mind.  I think by making abortion so readily available, we kill millions of children every year, when much, much better options are out there.

As for OT polygamy, God did not advise this as a way to live.  It was what was going on at the time.  Many, many wrong or evil things occured historically in the Bible that were not dictated by God.  Yes, there are those *very* few incidences in the OT where God commands something that seems to go against the grain. I cannot answer for God....I don't know all the circumstances, and I cannot know His mind. Overall, the Bible is *very consistent* in God's commands.  There are endless arguments as to how one can justify God's actions in these few circumstances, but in the end, I'll have lots of questions for Him when I hit the pearly gates.   Creation 101 is on the top of my list.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I suspect that any statistics on abortions before they were legal would be a bit understated.  Probably about the same way rape statistics are understated since there are a lot that go unreported.  I did think that abortions were actually down, but don't have any statistics on hand.  I am curious about other cultures as well, since we here in America are often outliers and a little....confused.

We have approx 80 out of 1600 high school kids pregnant right now where I work.  As far as I know, none have considered abortion, and it's not my place or decision to suggest it.  It would have been better if they had learned proper birth control rather than have kids, then have to suffer the economic and educational burden that they didn't need to have.  Kids have never waited, abstinence does not work, but this is straying a bit from the original point, but I use this as a counter-example.

The "it wasn't God's command" apologetics doesn't work.  I was trying to find specific verses, but here's  a quick list from the Skeptics Annotaited Bible (< polygamy >) - all these verses and yet God never said - "stop"?  You're correct in that it was the custom of the time, and as the customs changed, so did the writings found in the Bible.  It is funny to see how YHVH kept changing in time with society, and if it wasn't for Christianity freezing the bible in time, we'd probably have new books detailing new customs and morals instead of people just saying "you need to interpret this in this way...".  The bible is only consistent when looked at through apologetics glasses.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Free will Badger....seeing how people respond today to God's will, I don't think telling them to 'stop' would have accomplished a thing.  He doesn't change His laws...we do.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


If you believe that God knows everything, then there is no free will.  If you believe that God has a plan for everyone, or there is such a thing as destiny...no free will.

The Free Will Defense is a standard apologetic for the problem of evil, and it fails there.  It fails with what I was saying anyway since the Bible itself shows changing cultural mores (and morality) over time.  If you consider the bible to be divine or inspired in any way, then you are left with the argument that God has indeed changed his laws, or else he has let others change them, and put his seal of approval on those changes.  Which is it?

Plus, read up in neuroscience - there is a lot there that strongly implies that what used to be called free will isn't really any such thing.  Although to be fair, we'd have to start out with a definition of free will and go from there.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I have no interest in getting into a debate over free will.  There are so many arguments for and against.  In the end, we believe God allows us to make choices aside from his will or we don't.  Doesn't matter what we think, God is God....He's the Creator...He'll do what's best for us in the end, and all He asks in return is that we try our best to follow Him.  He's not asking for perfection.

I know that is complete nonsense to you, and that's fine.  No sense in arguing over it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Yeah, we can skip the free will bit - not the place for it anyway, and, yes, it makes no sense to me since it is all mythology anyway, but if you believe God is going to do what's best for you, then why do anything at all?  If your choices make no difference, and God will take care of you, then why bother with it?  Sorry, for me, while it may not make much sense, discussing/debating/arguing these things do many things - you can understand someone better (maybe), see viewpoints other than your own and hear arguments for them, which can cause you to adjust your own views, and such discussions can get your mind going, especially going into areas that you normally don't go.  Questioning and introspection are important, especially when regarding your own ideas.

But if that's not your cup of tea, no problem - I won't have much time through the week to do more than read and make quick comments - the only reason I had time today is the two playoff games - Yeah Steelers and Packers - I went to school in Wisconsin, married a cheesehead, my brother is a Steelers fan married to another cheesehead, and I favor the Jags - on the same side as the Steelers.  Gonna be a fun Superbowl this year.
Posted by: Dale_Husband on Jan. 23 2011,21:17

Nice way of being slippery. I don't argue for abortion rights because of nontheism, but on the basis of secular Constitutional law. Why can't you argue against abortion rights based on secular Constitutional law, instead of throwing the Bible and Christianity at us? And don't repeat that BIG LIE that the United States was founded on Biblical or Christian values. It wasn't, or we would still be under a king who would be considered to rule by Divine Right, instead of under a republican government by the consent of the people.

Besides, you cannot use the Bible to promote anti-abortion views, when there is at least one passage in it that actually calls for the killing of babies. This one:

< http://bible.cc/psalms/137-9.htm >

Psalm 137:9

"Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!"

And it doesn't matter the context in which that vile passage was written, because if you really objected to the termination of pregnancies by choice, you'd object to that too. But do you?

The claim that the Bible condemns the modern issue of abortion is one of the biggest lies the Religious Right has told, period.

   
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,19:19)
   
Quote (Dale_Husband @ Jan. 23 2011,19:07)

So on the basis of that one example, you assume that all rape victims who get pregnant can have their babies and then live happily ever after?

If you aunt had a choice, and choose to have the baby, that was her right. It is not for you or some government to tell her she can't have an abortion if she feels she can't deal with the emotional trauma of a pregnancy. That's violating the dignity of the woman TWICE! It is the height of absurdity to put the supposed right to life of a fetus above the right to bodily autonomy of someone who is already born and able to make decisions for herself.

And stop the Godbotting! This isn't about what God would want (no one knows that) or what he would forgive. This is about what federal law, including the U S Constitution itself, allows. It says that "All persons BORN or naturalized....", not conceived in the United States, are citizens. And it is citizens whose rights are protected, not those who are not yet citizens.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



sigh....Im not making the choice for anyone.  I'm merely sharing my views.  And, no, I won't stop the "Godbotting"...it's who I am.  Just like you share your viewpoints from your perspective or worldview.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,21:25

Quote (Badger3k @ Jan. 23 2011,20:58)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,19:59)
Quote (Badger3k @ Jan. 23 2011,19:54)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:49)
 
Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,17:47)
   
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:46)
   
Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,17:43)
     
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:41)
You know what, Stanton, in '09 in Kansas alone, there were approx. 9,500 abortions.  I'm finding it very hard to believe that the mother/and or children were all in jeopardy due to child birth. "Therapeutic" can mean virtually anything.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It can mean I'll kill myself if I can't get it removed.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


With counseling for the emotional state, it could be removed through natural birth and placed with another family would could better care for it.  9 months isn't a lifetime.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Oh shit!
A forced-birther spotted in the wild.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It's an option.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


"forced birth" is an option?  Srsly?   Of course, if you are saying that a woman can give the child up - that's always been an option.  Just as abortion is.

But, you're willing to foot the bill for the medical necessities, the problems that may arise with work or school, the food and care of the mother - nutrition is important, as well as pay her for the time and any suffering she may undergo, plus pay for the adoption agency, the upkeep of the child, as well as ensure that the child will be adopted?  I wonder what the adoption rate is for children of all colors and social backgrounds...not to mention the problems that children who are adopted have later in life, the lack of medical history, the sense of being different or wondering who your real parents are (I'm not, but I know some who are, so this is anecdotal).

You're munificence in offering to take care of these women is astounding.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


There are an endless number of people willing to adopt these children and foot the bills.  As for adopted children wondering about their past.  You know what?  We all have issues to deal with.  This won't be the only difficult issue in their lives.  I'd bet all my marbles that, if nothing else, they are glad they are alive rather than never given the chance to live.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


An endless number of people willing to take in children, which is why adoption agencies and the foster care system is overflowing with children, many of whom are repeats - I guess they come with a warranty?  Oddly enough, these "endless number of people" seem to prefer a certain type of child, and if you are not one of them, usually white, then...well, the numbers drop big time.  Same with those religious nutjobs who want to prevent gays from adopting children and giving them a loving home.  Apparently there are enough people that we can afford to refuse placing children with healthy, stable families.

As for the "glad they are alive" - seriously?  That's like the "how would you feel if you had been aborted" argument - if I had been aborted, then there never would have been any me, and therefore no one to feel anything - what a stupid question!  Adopted and foster kids have many problems that non-A&F kids don't have - that's a fact.  Whether they are glad to be alive or not is irreelevant to that fact.  There are people who run "adoption farms", where there are more kids than the Duggars, and there are families who adopt/foster just for the money, so it's not all a bed of roses.  This is a side argument, though, and not central to the choice argument.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The reason for the abundance of children in the foster care system has nothing to do with abortion.  Most of those parents wouldn't have chosen abortion anyway.  It has more to do with education and support systems for families with various issues.  So, yes, by the time the child is finally taken from the family at a later age, it is obviously more difficult to find permanent homes for them.  

And, yes, there are foster horror stories, and there are also heart warming stories.  I've cared for several children who have been adopted over the past several years.  Two were adopted at birth and have a great families.  

One of my families ended up adopting 6 children after fostering them for years.  It is a white family, and they adopted 4 black children and 2 white.  Their Dad teaches math at the high school.  They live in a small home, but it seems to really work for them.  

Another family I cared for adopted 2 children due to their parents both being in jail and unfit to care for the children, and although she thought she couldn't get pregnant, she ended up having a child of her own within the same year as adopting the second child.  About 2 years after she had her child, this same couple who had be in jail had a 3rd child and the family I cared for adopted him as well.  So, all 3 siblings were together and they had one of their own as well.  I still keep up with this family, and it's tons of fun to watch them all grow.  They are truly blessed and loved.

My own parents were foster parents for a few years when I was young, and we kids loved it, but I think it was hard on my Mom because she wanted so badly to help them and make a difference, but it was a struggle sometimes.  

[explaining my "cared for several children"....I've kept my profession to myself over the years because I've never cared to deal with the grief of the comments I'd get over my career choice.  I'm a daycare provider...I care for up to 12 children each day.  Yes, I have a college degree, and yes, I sometimes talk like a sailor in here which doesn't seem quite right for someone who takes care of children.  But, I do love my job.  After having my two boys, I quit my job as a buying analyst for a retail corporation and decided to stay home and care for them.  I ended up loving what I do, and never went back to the office.]  

Make of it what you will.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,21:30

Quote (Badger3k @ Jan. 23 2011,21:17)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,20:58)
Quote (Badger3k @ Jan. 23 2011,20:42)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,19:53)
 
Quote (Badger3k @ Jan. 23 2011,19:45)
   
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:25)
   
Quote (Badger3k @ Jan. 23 2011,16:58)
     
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,15:24)
     
Quote (Dale_Husband @ Jan. 23 2011,14:31)
       
Quote (MadPanda @ FCD,Jan. 21 2011,18:48)
         
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 21 2011,16:01)
I can't go tell PZ, Rich, he banned my ass years ago.  He doesn't allow dissent.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The first sentence is true.  The second sentence is so obviously false that anyone with a working conscience must blush to see the accusation made: the troll was invited to leave for being trollish, not merely for dissenting.  (Hint: there are practicing Xians who have earned the OM designation, some of whom have been known to tell Dr. Myers that he's full of it.  Funny how they haven't been hit with the banhammer yet.)

So, FTK, since you seem to think that abortion is a bad thing, what mandatory minimum sentence would you embrace for women seeking to terminate problematic pregnancies?

You, Biggy, what's the difference?


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It seems that the issue for anti-abortion fanatics is that they see premarital sex as a sin and thus things like pregnancy and STDs for unmarried girls and women are a punishment for those who sin.

That, in my opinion, degrades the value of children as much as abortion does.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


No, I would disagree that anti-abortion "fanatics" are *against abortion* because they know that premarital sex is a sin.  Nor, do I look at STD's as punishment.  Also, I might add that I, myself, was not a virgin when I married and looking back, I can see the value of being abstinent until marriage. Although, I'd agree that this is a very difficult thing to do, but not impossible.  

Abortion should not be considered birth control, and that is how I see people using it (1).  There are plenty of options out there for birth control.  I don't have any opinion about whether abortion should be legalized or not.  Every woman has to make this choice, I would just hope that they make it wisely.  Personally, I don't think the government should be involved in the issue at all.  

There is a reason why God advises one man/one woman (2).  He is the creator....he knows how we were created to live so that we can live life to the fullest.  Promiscuity leads to endless problems as well as disease.  It's not how we were created to live.  It also tends to make marriage to one person more difficult if people have become accustomed to sleeping with whomever makes us feel good at present.  God didn't make rules to make us miserable, but to help us live healthier life styles.  There are endless stories in the Bible that show what happens when biblical figures had multiple wives or cheated on their spouses.  Good never came of it.   So, it's not God looking down at us and not permitting us to enjoy life by being promiscuous or punishing us for doing so, but rather he is providing us with the forumla for happy healthy relationships.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Bolding mine.

(1) This is the problem.  You think this is how people are using it, but in 43 years of life, I've never met, seen, or heard of anyone who actually sees it like this, short of anti-choice fanatics.  It's a talking point, a way of reducing the person making the choice to someone you can spit on and feel superior to.  It completely ignores reality, even though you seem to realize it on one level.  I do find it odd that you have no opinion whether it should be legalized or not, yet you say that every woman has to make that choice and that the government should not be involved.  Sounds pro-choice to me.

(2) Except for all that Old Testament polygamy thing.  And the forced "marriages" of captured virgins to the people who killed their families.  Marriage to rapists.  Yeah, God must have changed his mind, then.  Like so much else in the Big Book of Multiple Excuses...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Mhmm...okay, just my opinion again...

Let me clarify just a bit regarding using abortion as birth control.  I don't believe that a woman, when she is making love with someone without protection, is thinking "oh, what the hell, if anything happens, I'll have an abortion".  

But, I think that with the rate of abortions we see today, subconsciously, we know there is a way to rid of an unwanted pregnancy if all else fails.  

Let me just add, that this is something that comes to anyone's mind regardless of religion if you are in the that position.  Since it has been legalized by the government, there is ample opportunity to get abortions and I'd bet that abortion numbers are WAY up in comparision to before abortions were legal.  Im sure promiscuity is way up as well.  There is always a way out of it.  And, even people who have been brought up knowing that abortion is wrong may take this avenue because it appears initially as the easy way out.  It's something many regret.  I remember thinking about it myself several months ago, when I thought I might be pregnant.  Im 45...that would not be cool.  All kinds of things crossed my mind.  I think by making abortion so readily available, we kill millions of children every year, when much, much better options are out there.

As for OT polygamy, God did not advise this as a way to live.  It was what was going on at the time.  Many, many wrong or evil things occured historically in the Bible that were not dictated by God.  Yes, there are those *very* few incidences in the OT where God commands something that seems to go against the grain. I cannot answer for God....I don't know all the circumstances, and I cannot know His mind. Overall, the Bible is *very consistent* in God's commands.  There are endless arguments as to how one can justify God's actions in these few circumstances, but in the end, I'll have lots of questions for Him when I hit the pearly gates.   Creation 101 is on the top of my list.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I suspect that any statistics on abortions before they were legal would be a bit understated.  Probably about the same way rape statistics are understated since there are a lot that go unreported.  I did think that abortions were actually down, but don't have any statistics on hand.  I am curious about other cultures as well, since we here in America are often outliers and a little....confused.

We have approx 80 out of 1600 high school kids pregnant right now where I work.  As far as I know, none have considered abortion, and it's not my place or decision to suggest it.  It would have been better if they had learned proper birth control rather than have kids, then have to suffer the economic and educational burden that they didn't need to have.  Kids have never waited, abstinence does not work, but this is straying a bit from the original point, but I use this as a counter-example.

The "it wasn't God's command" apologetics doesn't work.  I was trying to find specific verses, but here's  a quick list from the Skeptics Annotaited Bible (< polygamy >) - all these verses and yet God never said - "stop"?  You're correct in that it was the custom of the time, and as the customs changed, so did the writings found in the Bible.  It is funny to see how YHVH kept changing in time with society, and if it wasn't for Christianity freezing the bible in time, we'd probably have new books detailing new customs and morals instead of people just saying "you need to interpret this in this way...".  The bible is only consistent when looked at through apologetics glasses.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Free will Badger....seeing how people respond today to God's will, I don't think telling them to 'stop' would have accomplished a thing.  He doesn't change His laws...we do.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


If you believe that God knows everything, then there is no free will.  If you believe that God has a plan for everyone, or there is such a thing as destiny...no free will.

The Free Will Defense is a standard apologetic for the problem of evil, and it fails there.  It fails with what I was saying anyway since the Bible itself shows changing cultural mores (and morality) over time.  If you consider the bible to be divine or inspired in any way, then you are left with the argument that God has indeed changed his laws, or else he has let others change them, and put his seal of approval on those changes.  Which is it?

Plus, read up in neuroscience - there is a lot there that strongly implies that what used to be called free will isn't really any such thing.  Although to be fair, we'd have to start out with a definition of free will and go from there.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I have no interest in getting into a debate over free will.  There are so many arguments for and against.  In the end, we believe God allows us to make choices aside from his will or we don't.  Doesn't matter what we think, God is God....He's the Creator...He'll do what's best for us in the end, and all He asks in return is that we try our best to follow Him.  He's not asking for perfection.

I know that is complete nonsense to you, and that's fine.  No sense in arguing over it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Yeah, we can skip the free will bit - not the place for it anyway, and, yes, it makes no sense to me since it is all mythology anyway, but if you believe God is going to do what's best for you, then why do anything at all?  If your choices make no difference, and God will take care of you, then why bother with it?  Sorry, for me, while it may not make much sense, discussing/debating/arguing these things do many things - you can understand someone better (maybe), see viewpoints other than your own and hear arguments for them, which can cause you to adjust your own views, and such discussions can get your mind going, especially going into areas that you normally don't go.  Questioning and introspection are important, especially when regarding your own ideas.

But if that's not your cup of tea, no problem - I won't have much time through the week to do more than read and make quick comments - the only reason I had time today is the two playoff games - Yeah Steelers and Packers - I went to school in Wisconsin, married a cheesehead, my brother is a Steelers fan married to another cheesehead, and I favor the Jags - on the same side as the Steelers.  Gonna be a fun Superbowl this year.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Just for future reference, I've spent a lifetime listening to arguments that go against my biblical POV.  In the past 10 years alone, I believe I've probably heard them all.  But, feel free to further enlighten me, just as I'll throw the ball right back at ya...:)
Posted by: Dale_Husband on Jan. 23 2011,21:49

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,21:30)
Just for future reference, I've spent a lifetime listening to arguments that go against my biblical POV.  In the past 10 years alone, I believe I've probably heard them all.  But, feel free to further enlighten me, just as I'll throw the ball right back at ya...:)
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Closed minded bigots like yourself, FL, and IBeleiveInGod constantly judge issues in religion by a double standard; those who say what you already beleive must be right, while those who contradict those beliefs must be wrong. Have you ever heard of judging issues in ANY subject by objective reality? That's the ONLY way to discover consistent truth. If there is a God and he created the universe, then the only way to know him is to study his creation. NOT read some man-made book that is called the Word of God. There is no such thing, because critical analysis has debunked the notions about such a thing. But phony Biblical apologists keep lying to their flock about the issues and idiots like you keep lapping up their baseless crap.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,22:01

Quote (Dale_Husband @ Jan. 23 2011,21:49)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,21:30)
Just for future reference, I've spent a lifetime listening to arguments that go against my biblical POV.  In the past 10 years alone, I believe I've probably heard them all.  But, feel free to further enlighten me, just as I'll throw the ball right back at ya...:)
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Closed minded bigots like yourself, FL, and IBeleiveInGod constantly judge issues in religion by a double standard; those who say what you already beleive must be right, while those who contradict those beliefs must be wrong. Have you ever heard of judging issues in ANY subject by objective reality? That's the ONLY way to discover consistent truth. If there is a God and he created the universe, then the only way to know him is to study his creation. NOT read some man-made book that is called the Word of God. There is no such thing, because critical analysis has debunked the notions about such a thing. But phony Biblical apologists keep lying to their flock about the issues and idiots like you keep lapping up their baseless crap.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Dale,

Don't you think that statements like you just made are exactly the kind of statements that you deem bigoted and judgemental coming from myself, FL, etc.?  Can't u see that?  You, yourself, are telling me the "ONLY" way to discover objective truth.  

Think about that for a little bit.
Posted by: fnxtr on Jan. 23 2011,22:05

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 23 2011,15:12)
ETA: By the way, sex IS a game! reproduction is the final goal, but you do have to practice. And as with boxing, dancing... you need to try multiple sparing partners in order to get full potential...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


... or to fully appreciate the right partner when you finally do find them.

Anecdote: I have an acquaintance who was seriously considering sexual therapy because she and her husband both thought she was frigid. Of course they were both virgins when they married. He eventually bailed out, and she later learned there was nothing wrong with her, he was just a lousy lover.

By your standars, ftk, she would have lived the rest of her life in ignorance and misery. I can't believe any True Christian™ would wish that on another (she was married to a Lutheran minister).
Posted by: Dale_Husband on Jan. 23 2011,22:18

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,22:01)
 
Quote (Dale_Husband @ Jan. 23 2011,21:49)
   
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,21:30)
Just for future reference, I've spent a lifetime listening to arguments that go against my biblical POV.  In the past 10 years alone, I believe I've probably heard them all.  But, feel free to further enlighten me, just as I'll throw the ball right back at ya...:)
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Closed minded bigots like yourself, FL, and IBeleiveInGod constantly judge issues in religion by a double standard; those who say what you already beleive must be right, while those who contradict those beliefs must be wrong. Have you ever heard of judging issues in ANY subject by objective reality? That's the ONLY way to discover consistent truth. If there is a God and he created the universe, then the only way to know him is to study his creation. NOT read some man-made book that is called the Word of God. There is no such thing, because critical analysis has debunked the notions about such a thing. But phony Biblical apologists keep lying to their flock about the issues and idiots like you keep lapping up their baseless crap.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Dale,

Don't you think that statements like you just made are exactly the kind of statements that you deem bigoted and judgemental coming from myself, FL, etc.?  Can't u see that?  You, yourself, are telling me the "ONLY" way to discover objective truth.  

Think about that for a little bit.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


No, of course not. If you are saying that there is no objective truth, then why push the Bible on anyone at all? It's just another book, right? No, you think it's the Word of God, so you are claiming a source of absolute truth. Except in my case, I know that man made all the Bibles in the world, while man could not possibly have made the universe itself we live in. That's the difference between science and extremist religion like yours.

It's that sort of dishonest "you too" bull$#it that cuts off rational discussion and makes you look stupid. You and Kris the Krazy need to get a room together.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,22:23

Quote (fnxtr @ Jan. 23 2011,22:05)
Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 23 2011,15:12)
ETA: By the way, sex IS a game! reproduction is the final goal, but you do have to practice. And as with boxing, dancing... you need to try multiple sparing partners in order to get full potential...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


... or to fully appreciate the right partner when you finally do find them.

Anecdote: I have an acquaintance who was seriously considering sexual therapy because she and her husband both thought she was frigid. Of course they were both virgins when they married. He eventually bailed out, and she later learned there was nothing wrong with her, he was just a lousy lover.

By your standars, ftk, she would have lived the rest of her life in ignorance and misery. I can't believe any True Christian™ would wish that on another (she was married to a Lutheran minister).
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So, how many partners do you think is required before you find the perfect lover and make a commitment?  10, 20, 30?  And, can you ever really be sure that you didn't miss out on that perfect fuck?  Maybe she's still out there, but now you're stuck with what you have.  

And, do you think that everyone who has tested the water innumerable times will end up with the perfect sex life?  Do you really?

I read an article with statistics about this very subject a while back, and the conclusion was that the less partners a person has the happier they are with their sex life and their marriage as well.  No, I can't remember where I saw it so it's fine to call me a liar.  I'll try to dig it up if I can.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,22:29

Quote (Dale_Husband @ Jan. 23 2011,22:18)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,22:01)
   
Quote (Dale_Husband @ Jan. 23 2011,21:49)
   
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,21:30)
Just for future reference, I've spent a lifetime listening to arguments that go against my biblical POV.  In the past 10 years alone, I believe I've probably heard them all.  But, feel free to further enlighten me, just as I'll throw the ball right back at ya...:)
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Closed minded bigots like yourself, FL, and IBeleiveInGod constantly judge issues in religion by a double standard; those who say what you already beleive must be right, while those who contradict those beliefs must be wrong. Have you ever heard of judging issues in ANY subject by objective reality? That's the ONLY way to discover consistent truth. If there is a God and he created the universe, then the only way to know him is to study his creation. NOT read some man-made book that is called the Word of God. There is no such thing, because critical analysis has debunked the notions about such a thing. But phony Biblical apologists keep lying to their flock about the issues and idiots like you keep lapping up their baseless crap.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Dale,

Don't you think that statements like you just made are exactly the kind of statements that you deem bigoted and judgemental coming from myself, FL, etc.?  Can't u see that?  You, yourself, are telling me the "ONLY" way to discover objective truth.  

Think about that for a little bit.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


No, of course not. If you are saying that there is no objective truth, then why push the Bible on anyone at all? It's just another book, right? No, you think it's the Word of God, so you are claiming a source of absolute truth. Except in my case, I know that man made all the Bibles in the world, while man could not possibly have made the universe itself we live in. That's the difference between science and extremist religion like yours.

It's that sort of dishonest "you too" bull$#it that cuts off rational discussion and makes you look stupid. You and Kris the Krazy need to get a room together.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Dale you just told me that there is only ONE WAY to discover consistent truth.  Then you turn around and tell me that I cannot believe that I have found truth in God and His word.  

So, why the double standard?
Posted by: MadPanda, FCD on Jan. 23 2011,22:31

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:43)
Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,17:41)
delete duplicate
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Khan, I can't answer that.  It's not my place to judge...that is God's job, and he is a very forgiving God.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Objection!  Assertion assumes facts not in evidence and is (in light of a review of the literature) counterfactual.

And I still haven't gotten an answer--what sentence do you consider appropriate for these horrid slatterns who dare seek the MURDER of their innocent fetuses?

Your assumption and extrapolation from an undetermined sample size is noted.


The MadPanda, FCD
Posted by: MadPanda, FCD on Jan. 23 2011,22:34

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:44)
Well, shame on them then.  That is not how Christ would respond.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Objection!  Assumes facts not in evidence.  Also No True Scotsman fallacy...


The MadPanda, FCD
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,22:38

Quote (MadPanda, FCD @ Jan. 23 2011,22:31)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,17:43)
Quote (khan @ Jan. 23 2011,17:41)
delete duplicate
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Khan, I can't answer that.  It's not my place to judge...that is God's job, and he is a very forgiving God.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Objection!  Assertion assumes facts not in evidence and is (in light of a review of the literature) counterfactual.

And I still haven't gotten an answer--what sentence do you consider appropriate for these horrid slatterns who dare seek the MURDER of their innocent fetuses?

Your assumption and extrapolation from an undetermined sample size is noted.


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


What sentence?  Umm....none?  I think I've stated several times that I have no opinion as to the legality of abortion.  I prefer to keep government out of it.  Education, counseling and support should be a priority here, not a sentence of some sort for those who chose abortion.
Posted by: MadPanda, FCD on Jan. 23 2011,22:39

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,19:53)
Free will Badger....seeing how people respond today to God's will, I don't think telling them to 'stop' would have accomplished a thing.  He doesn't change His laws...we do.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Objection, assumes facts not in evidence...

You have read the Old Testament, perhaps?  In that very work of fiction your imaginary friend does not come across as particularly kind, nor forgiving, nor loving except perhaps in the same way as an abusive spouse.


The MadPanda, FCD
Posted by: Dale_Husband on Jan. 23 2011,22:39

[quote=Ftk,Jan. 23 2011,22:29][/quote]


---------------------QUOTE-------------------

Dale you just told me that there is only ONE WAY to discover consistent truth.  Then you turn around and tell me that I cannot believe that I have found truth in God and His word.  

So, why the double standard?

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Why are you lying outright about me having a double standard? You are so full of it it's not even funny! If your only response to me is to lie about what I said and meant, no wonder P Z Myers banned you from Pharyngula! I would have too!
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,22:41

Quote (MadPanda, FCD @ Jan. 23 2011,22:34)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,18:44)
Well, shame on them then.  That is not how Christ would respond.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Objection!  Assumes facts not in evidence.  Also No True Scotsman fallacy...


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You can call it what you will.  It's the truth.  Christ showed compasion and love for those in need.  He was more apt to judge those who claimed to be of God than those who weren't.
Posted by: Dale_Husband on Jan. 23 2011,22:43

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,22:38)
What sentence?  Umm....none?  I think I've stated several times that I have no opinion as to the legality of abortion.  I prefer to keep government out of it.  Education, counseling and support should be a priority here, not a sentence of some sort for those who chose abortion.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Are you saying you are actually pro-choice?! Then your whole argument falls apart. If you really thought abortion was an objective moral issue, you would seek to get the government involved in enforcing your values. If not.....
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,22:44

Quote (Dale_Husband @ Jan. 23 2011,22:39)
[quote=Ftk,Jan. 23 2011,22:29][/quote]
 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------

Dale you just told me that there is only ONE WAY to discover consistent truth.  Then you turn around and tell me that I cannot believe that I have found truth in God and His word.  

So, why the double standard?

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Why are you lying outright about me having a double standard? You are so full of it it's not even funny! If your only response to me is to lie about what I said and meant, no wonder P Z Myers banned you from Pharyngula! I would have too!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Hmmm....maybe you're not understanding what I'm getting at.  I'll try to think of another way to phrase it.  If anyone else gets what I'm saying, maybe you can help me explain it to Dale.  If none of you get it...lol...I guess Im screwed.
Posted by: MadPanda, FCD on Jan. 23 2011,22:47

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,22:38)
What sentence?  Umm....none?  I think I've stated several times that I have no opinion as to the legality of abortion.  I prefer to keep government out of it.  Education, counseling and support should be a priority here, not a sentence of some sort for those who chose abortion.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Thank you for answering my question.  That'll do nicely, in fact.

Too bad so many of your fellow True BeLIEvers (tm pat pend) don't agree with you on that score.  Funny thing is, they'll say that you're the one in the wrong...and you have nothing to clearly demonstrate why your interpretation of the magic book is more accurate.


The MadPanda, FCD
Posted by: MadPanda, FCD on Jan. 23 2011,22:50

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,22:41)
You can call it what you will.  It's the truth.  Christ showed compasion and love for those in need.  He was more apt to judge those who claimed to be of God than those who weren't.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I'm sorry, but what part of "assumes facts not in evidence" did you not understand?  You are parroting mythology, not speaking truth.  There's a big difference.

Your imaginary friend is in your head, nowhere else.  If you have evidence to the contrary, show it.


The MadPanda, FCD
Posted by: fnxtr on Jan. 23 2011,22:52

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,20:23)
   
Quote (fnxtr @ Jan. 23 2011,22:05)
   
Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 23 2011,15:12)
ETA: By the way, sex IS a game! reproduction is the final goal, but you do have to practice. And as with boxing, dancing... you need to try multiple sparing partners in order to get full potential...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


... or to fully appreciate the right partner when you finally do find them.

Anecdote: I have an acquaintance who was seriously considering sexual therapy because she and her husband both thought she was frigid. Of course they were both virgins when they married. He eventually bailed out, and she later learned there was nothing wrong with her, he was just a lousy lover.

By your standars, ftk, she would have lived the rest of her life in ignorance and misery. I can't believe any True Christian™ would wish that on another (she was married to a Lutheran minister).
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So, how many partners do you think is required before you find the perfect lover and make a commitment?  10, 20, 30?  And, can you ever really be sure that you didn't miss out on that perfect fuck?  Maybe she's still out there, but now you're stuck with what you have.  

And, do you think that everyone who has tested the water innumerable times will end up with the perfect sex life?  Do you really?

(snip)
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



O FFS, ftk. Really? That's how you argue?  Making shit up, adding bizarre -- no, insane -- extrapolations, and throwing in boneheaded hyperbolic questions?

How should I know what makes other people happy? I know I got the right one now, but it took some searching. My step-daughter, OTOH, will probably marry the guy she's with now, her first.  Could be perfectly happy for the rest of her life. Not for me to say. Different strokes. (shrug)

Of course people should look before they leap. But horny teenagers aren't going to listen to me any more than they are to... oh, say, you, for instance.
Posted by: Dale_Husband on Jan. 23 2011,22:54

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,22:44)
 
Quote (Dale_Husband @ Jan. 23 2011,22:39)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,22:29)

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


     

---------------------QUOTE-------------------

Dale you just told me that there is only ONE WAY to discover consistent truth.  Then you turn around and tell me that I cannot believe that I have found truth in God and His word.  

So, why the double standard?

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Why are you lying outright about me having a double standard? You are so full of it it's not even funny! If your only response to me is to lie about what I said and meant, no wonder P Z Myers banned you from Pharyngula! I would have too!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Hmmm....maybe you're not understanding what I'm getting at.  I'll try to think of another way to phrase it.  If anyone else gets what I'm saying, maybe you can help me explain it to Dale.  If none of you get it...lol...I guess Im screwed.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Oh, I get exactly what you were saying, FTK. You  beleive that your faith in the Bible (a man-made book) should be put on the same level as a scientist's trust in the results of modern science (which involves studying the universe, things within it, and the physical and chemical laws that govern them, which only God could have made).

No, you are wrong. Indeed, you are an idiot! If reality contradicts the Bible, a true beleiver in God would conclude that the Bible is NOT the Word of God and seek knowledge of God from science alone. Do you? Appearantly not! Putting your religious faith in something man-made, and calling that thing God-made instead, is idolatry and blasphemy.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,22:58

Quote (Dale_Husband @ Jan. 23 2011,22:43)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,22:38)
What sentence?  Umm....none?  I think I've stated several times that I have no opinion as to the legality of abortion.  I prefer to keep government out of it.  Education, counseling and support should be a priority here, not a sentence of some sort for those who chose abortion.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Are you saying you are actually pro-choice?! Then your whole argument falls apart. If you really thought abortion was an objective moral issue, you would seek to get the government involved in enforcing your values. If not.....
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


"Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and give unto God what is God's."  

Christ never said anything about a worldly government take over.  His ministry was ultimately about truth, love and eternal life.  That means that a "Christian nation" is not a necessity for me.  My beliefs that lead me to vote according to God's will is NOT because I want to shove my views down someone elses throat or make them live a particular way.  I'll vote the way for what I think is best accordingly to my worldview just as you will for yours.  It's dangerous having a particular religion having ultimate control....I have no problem with separation of Church and State unless it's taken so far from context that the Church doesn't have the same rights as everyone else.  Furthermore, if a "Christian Nation" was established, what form of "Christianity" would that be???  

I can state my opinions and vote according to my biblical beliefs.  But, if the majority vote is against my POV, so be it.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,23:00

Quote (MadPanda, FCD @ Jan. 23 2011,22:47)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,22:38)
What sentence?  Umm....none?  I think I've stated several times that I have no opinion as to the legality of abortion.  I prefer to keep government out of it.  Education, counseling and support should be a priority here, not a sentence of some sort for those who chose abortion.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Thank you for answering my question.  That'll do nicely, in fact.

Too bad so many of your fellow True BeLIEvers (tm pat pend) don't agree with you on that score.  Funny thing is, they'll say that you're the one in the wrong...and you have nothing to clearly demonstrate why your interpretation of the magic book is more accurate.


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Perhaps, but neither do they.  "Shouts and whispers"....as I said earlier.  People need to just shut up and help each other the best they can instead of cut each other apart for their choices.
Posted by: MadPanda, FCD on Jan. 23 2011,23:09

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,23:00)
People need to just shut up and help each other the best they can instead of cut each other apart for their choices.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


There, at least, we are in full agreement.

Unfortunately, honesty demands that I point out quite firmly that the majority of people who see fit to tear others apart for their choices is on the 'believer' side of the line...and they justify it by appeal to the magic book about their imaginary friend.  So you do yourself no good to forward mythology and treat it as indisputable fact.


The MadPanda, FCD
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,23:10

Quote (MadPanda, FCD @ Jan. 23 2011,22:50)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,22:41)
You can call it what you will.  It's the truth.  Christ showed compasion and love for those in need.  He was more apt to judge those who claimed to be of God than those who weren't.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I'm sorry, but what part of "assumes facts not in evidence" did you not understand?  You are parroting mythology, not speaking truth.  There's a big difference.

Your imaginary friend is in your head, nowhere else.  If you have evidence to the contrary, show it.


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I'm sure you've been given an abundant amount of evidence and rejected it all.  I honestly don't understand how people can be so divided on the subject.  The only thing I can come up with is what appears more and more all the time to be correct.  You either have the holy spirit in your heart or you don't.  You either see or you don't.  It's the only explantion I can find to understand how what I know to be true (and proven with little doubt) is so completely rejected and misunderstood by some.  

Yes, call me delusional, conceited, bigoted, etc., etc.,.  I really don't mind anymore.  I know there is a God...it's abundantly clear and why some don't see that.....it's a mystery. I know I don't have everything right, but there is a God and there is a reason for us being where and who we are.  And, I won't apologize for the sermon.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,23:21

Quote (MadPanda, FCD @ Jan. 23 2011,23:09)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,23:00)
People need to just shut up and help each other the best they can instead of cut each other apart for their choices.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


There, at least, we are in full agreement.

Unfortunately, honesty demands that I point out quite firmly that the majority of people who see fit to tear others apart for their choices is on the 'believer' side of the line...and they justify it by appeal to the magic book about their imaginary friend.  So you do yourself no good to forward mythology and treat it as indisputable fact.


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


There you are doing the same thing as Dale.  If it was only the 'believer's' side of the line that was claiming their way is the only way, and that they are the only ones "tearing others apart" we wouldn't have any arguments, would we?  Do none of you get that?  Can't you see that both sides are pushing for their own beliefs and, agendas and worldview?  *Both* sides tear at each other.  We need to all stop with the anger, quit being so defensive and try to understand each other rather than play the blame game.
Posted by: Dale_Husband on Jan. 23 2011,23:25

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,22:58)
"Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and give unto God what is God's."  

Christ never said anything about a worldly government take over.  His ministry was ultimately about truth, love and eternal life.  That means that a "Christian nation" is not a necessity for me.  My beliefs that lead me to vote according to God's will is NOT because I want to shove my views down someone elses throat or make them live a particular way.  I'll vote the way for what I think is best accordingly to my worldview just as you will for yours.  It's dangerous having a particular religion having ultimate control....I have no problem with separation of Church and State unless it's taken so far from context that the Church doesn't have the same rights as everyone else.  Furthermore, if a "Christian Nation" was established, what form of "Christianity" would that be???  

I can state my opinions and vote according to my biblical beliefs.  But, if the majority vote is against my POV, so be it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Here are a couple of things I have written about abortion. See what you think:

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


< http://www.care2.com/c2c/share/detail/627284 >

Anti-abortion arguments that are RATIONAL

There are several reasons why abortion should be outlawed, or at least severely restricted:

1. It is an act of violence.  Many people oppose war and the death penalty because they destroy human life, and oppose hunting for sport because it destroys animal life wantonly. How can humans unborn be given less consideration than animals?

1. It encourages a throw-away attitude.  If we are opposed to littering and want more people to recycle bottles and paper, why throw away unborn children?
3. It leaves many couples who can't have children with fewer opportunities to adopt.    Experience indicates that people who are parents, whether by birth or adoption, tend to be more disciplined themselves, because they have to teach their own children how to behave.

4. It would force people to be more disciplined in their sex lives.  Knowing that abortion would not be an option would make many people think twice about having sex without using protection.

5. My wife has disabilities from birth.  If she had been aborted, I probably wouldn't be married now.

We need to get RELIGION out of the abortion debate. To oppose birth control and insist on abstinence is hypocrisy and reason enough to shut down the Catholic Church. The sex drive in some organisms, and perhaps in some people, is even stronger than the instinct for self-preservation. Natural selection made sure of that!

To lessen the number of abortions we need to do the following:

1. More sex education in the schools.   Those who claim that such education encourages more sexual activity put the cart before the horse. I know from experience that abstinence pledges simply do not work. Period!

2. Better and more readily available birth control methods.   Even condoms often fail, so they should be deemphasized in favor of the pill or even sterilization. And sterilization should be offered for FREE at most hospitals.

3. STOP ALL ABSTINENCE PROGRAMS!  Discredit them publicly with the facts.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



See why I demanded you stop the Godbotting? It doesn't work, except to show and spread irrational prejudice instead of promoting objective reason.

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------

< http://www.care2.com/c2c/share/detail/967727 >

Abortion rights and fetal personhood


This blog is made to address the question of: "When can the personhood of a developing embryo or fetus be legally defined?"

And before we can do that, we must also define what a "person" is.

What makes a person, as opposed to a mere ball of cells or even a fully developed animal? Of course, if you are an animal rights activist, you will also claim that even most animals have a natural right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, but since animals in nature constantly kill and eat each other, and since we are talking about a legal matter applicable only to humans, let's assume that argument does not apply and that we are only talking about humans and what makes them different from all other animals.

Certainly, if we judge personhood by genetics, we'd have to conceed the point that a human being is a unique individual from conception onward. But that does not define personhood, because skin cells or blood shed from a human also have unique genetic characteristics, which is what makes DNA testing possible. Yet they are in most cases no longer even alive. A person is the totality of his body, not just its individual cells.

Having disposed of the animals rights issue and the genetics issue, let us focus on the one thing that truly separates humans from other animals: their brains.

Of course, whales and elephants have brains far bigger than humans, but they also have larger bodies. Indeed, human brain to body proportions are much greater than any other animals species.

But what really makes human brains special is not just their size, but their cerebral cortexes. So it would be reasonable to conclude than when the cerebral cortex has reached a certain level of development in the human fetus, then we can say that fetus has reached a level of personhood and should now be legally protected.

When is this? Let's look at the actual data:

< http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/dev.html >

It would appear that the brain of an embryo/fetus starts to develop its cerebral cortex at 11 weeks and the process is nearly complete at 8 months, long after the fetus has reached the physical level of viability (able to survive outside the womb).

But appearances can be misleading. For the next step in our research, we should look into brain wave patterns in embryos or fetuses.

< http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_fetu.htm >

26 weeks or 6 months: The fetus 14" long and almost two pounds. The lungs' bronchioles develop. Interlinking of the brain's neurons begins. The higher functions of the fetal brain turn on for the first time. Some rudimentary brain waves can be detected. The fetus will be able to feel pain for the first time. It has become conscious of its surroundings. The fetus has become a sentient human life for the first time.

That's it! From a strictly scientific and logical perspective, fetal personhood may be legally defined as starting at 26 weeks. However,

22 weeks or 5 months: 12" long and weighing about a pound, the fetus has hair on its head. Its movements can be felt. An abortion is usually unavailable at this gestational age because of state and province medical society regulations, except under very unusual circumstances. Half-way through the 22nd week, the fetus' lungs may be developed to the point where it would have a miniscule chance to live on its own. State laws and medical association regulations generally outlaw almost all abortions beyond 20 or 21 weeks gestation. "A baby born during the 22nd week has a 14.8 percent chance of survival. And about half of these survivors are brain-damaged, either by lack of oxygen (from poor initial respiration) or too much oxygen (from the ventilator). Neonatologists predict that no baby will ever be viable before the 22nd week, because before then the lungs are not fully formed." 4 Of course, if someone develops an artificial womb, then this limit could change suddenly.


So we might play it safe and push back a legal definition of personhood to 22 weeks, to avoid the possibility of aborting a viable fetus. Ban abortion after that, but allow it before that.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



This is a perfect example of using science and reason to address a hot issue, not religion!
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Jan. 23 2011,23:26

OH HAI



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
We need to all stop with the anger, quit being so defensive and try to understand each other rather than play the blame game.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



sure thing.  just.as.soon. as they stop trying to teach bullshit in science class.

and besides i think all you white people are crazy don't know what this "both sides" stuff is.  lol
Posted by: MadPanda, FCD on Jan. 23 2011,23:28

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,23:10)
I'm sure you've been given an abundant amount of evidence and rejected it all.  I honestly don't understand how people can be so divided on the subject.  The only thing I can come up with is what appears more and more all the time to be correct.  You either have the holy spirit in your heart or you don't.  You either see or you don't.  It's the only explantion I can find to understand how what I know to be true (and proven with little doubt) is so completely rejected and misunderstood by some.  

Yes, call me delusional, conceited, bigoted, etc., etc.,.  I really don't mind anymore.  I know there is a God...it's abundantly clear and why some don't see that.....it's a mystery. I know I don't have everything right, but there is a God and there is a reason for us being where and who we are.  And, I won't apologize for the sermon.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Nope: not a speck.  I have heard testimony, anecdote, assertion after assertion, and hours and hours of religious instruction.  I have seen and read more than you would be likely to guess, and listened for a long time to more voices than you might be willing to believe.  No actual evidence of any deity claimed to be, or to have been, has ever been presented, period.

That you believe is not in dispute.  That you have your reasons is also not in dispute.  The content of your beliefs...ah, that's another matter.

You are indeed delusional*--you have an imaginary friend, which at any age over twelve ought to be a source of profound embarrassment instead of a culturally coddled construct.  Further, you hold this imaginary friend to be more important than the very real people and relationships around you...possibly to the detriment of some, or worse than detriment.  You lift an ancient anthology of questionable accuracy and dubious scholarship up onto a pedestal and treat it as the guide to life, regardless of the actual contents.  (I give you credit for not going so far as some other delusional persons, who quote it as if it were indisputably authoritative.)  

You even have this pat little excuse for people who don't accept your interpretation--they're not full of the Holy Spirit, or led astray by Teh Debbil, or Not True Scotsmen, or they hate Baby Jeebus and Gawd, or whatever.  How very convenient!  It isn't possible, simply isn't possible, that you might be wrong...

You need not apologize for the sermon: you can't help it.

Here is an exercise for you: replace the word 'God' with the word 'Zeus'.  See if your protestations and declarations don't sound a little silly with the imaginary friend switched out.  Alternately, explain to me why you don't believe in Odin the All-Father...


The MadPanda, FCD


* Delusional is not the same thing as unsane.  We all have our little opinions that are not necessarily supported by objective evidence.  Ask any sports fan or dog lover or, dare I say it, sci fi fan...
Posted by: MadPanda, FCD on Jan. 23 2011,23:37

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,23:21)
There you are doing the same thing as Dale.  If it was only the 'believer's' side of the line that was claiming their way is the only way, and that they are the only ones "tearing others apart" we wouldn't have any arguments, would we?  Do none of you get that?  Can't you see that both sides are pushing for their own beliefs and, agendas and worldview?  *Both* sides tear at each other.  We need to all stop with the anger, quit being so defensive and try to understand each other rather than play the blame game.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


That's a false equivalence, at best.  Even if I were to grant you the NOMA, which I don't, only one side actually has practical support.

There is this thing called reality.  It does not go away when you decide to stop believing in it.  It is also a harsh mistress and a firm taskmaster (if you'll forgive the mixed metaphor).

If you wish to be taken seriously, you need to present evidence.  Not anecdote, not testimony, not quote scripture, not assertions...evidence.

What part of that are you not willing to understand?


The MadPanda, FCD
Posted by: Dale_Husband on Jan. 23 2011,23:38



---------------------QUOTE-------------------

I'm sure you've been given an abundant amount of evidence and rejected it all.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


What evidence? That's a cop-out.
 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


 I honestly don't understand how people can be so divided on the subject.  The only thing I can come up with is what appears more and more all the time to be correct.  You either have the holy spirit in your heart or you don't.  You either see or you don't.  It's the only explantion I can find to understand how what I know to be true (and proven with little doubt) is so completely rejected and misunderstood by some.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Your assertions, like those of the Bible, are not evidence for anything.
 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------

Yes, call me delusional, conceited, bigoted, etc., etc.,.  I really don't mind anymore.  I know there is a God...it's abundantly clear and why some don't see that.....it's a mystery. I know I don't have everything right, but there is a God and there is a reason for us being where and who we are.  And, I won't apologize for the sermon.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You are delusional, not merely for beleiving in a God, but for claiming that you "know" there is one! The sheer arrogance you have is incredible.

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
There you are doing the same thing as Dale.  If it was only the 'believer's' side of the line that was claiming their way is the only way, and that they are the only ones "tearing others apart" we wouldn't have any arguments, would we?  Do none of you get that?  Can't you see that both sides are pushing for their own beliefs and, agendas and worldview?  *Both* sides tear at each other.  We need to all stop with the anger, quit being so defensive and try to understand each other rather than play the blame game.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Uh, since we are pro-CHOICE, not insisting that people have an abortion because we want them to, you just lied again!
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,23:43

Quote (Dale_Husband @ Jan. 23 2011,23:25)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,22:58)
"Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and give unto God what is God's."  

Christ never said anything about a worldly government take over.  His ministry was ultimately about truth, love and eternal life.  That means that a "Christian nation" is not a necessity for me.  My beliefs that lead me to vote according to God's will is NOT because I want to shove my views down someone elses throat or make them live a particular way.  I'll vote the way for what I think is best accordingly to my worldview just as you will for yours.  It's dangerous having a particular religion having ultimate control....I have no problem with separation of Church and State unless it's taken so far from context that the Church doesn't have the same rights as everyone else.  Furthermore, if a "Christian Nation" was established, what form of "Christianity" would that be???  

I can state my opinions and vote according to my biblical beliefs.  But, if the majority vote is against my POV, so be it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Here are a couple of things I have written about abortion. See what you think:

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


< http://www.care2.com/c2c/share/detail/627284 >

Anti-abortion arguments that are RATIONAL

There are several reasons why abortion should be outlawed, or at least severely restricted:

1. It is an act of violence.  Many people oppose war and the death penalty because they destroy human life, and oppose hunting for sport because it destroys animal life wantonly. How can humans unborn be given less consideration than animals?

1. It encourages a throw-away attitude.  If we are opposed to littering and want more people to recycle bottles and paper, why throw away unborn children?
3. It leaves many couples who can't have children with fewer opportunities to adopt.    Experience indicates that people who are parents, whether by birth or adoption, tend to be more disciplined themselves, because they have to teach their own children how to behave.

4. It would force people to be more disciplined in their sex lives.  Knowing that abortion would not be an option would make many people think twice about having sex without using protection.

5. My wife has disabilities from birth.  If she had been aborted, I probably wouldn't be married now.

We need to get RELIGION out of the abortion debate. To oppose birth control and insist on abstinence is hypocrisy and reason enough to shut down the Catholic Church. The sex drive in some organisms, and perhaps in some people, is even stronger than the instinct for self-preservation. Natural selection made sure of that!

To lessen the number of abortions we need to do the following:

1. More sex education in the schools.   Those who claim that such education encourages more sexual activity put the cart before the horse. I know from experience that abstinence pledges simply do not work. Period!

2. Better and more readily available birth control methods.   Even condoms often fail, so they should be deemphasized in favor of the pill or even sterilization. And sterilization should be offered for FREE at most hospitals.

3. STOP ALL ABSTINENCE PROGRAMS!  Discredit them publicly with the facts.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



See why I demanded you stop the Godbotting? It doesn't work, except to show and spread irrational prejudice instead of promoting objective reason.

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------

< http://www.care2.com/c2c/share/detail/967727 >

Abortion rights and fetal personhood


This blog is made to address the question of: "When can the personhood of a developing embryo or fetus be legally defined?"

And before we can do that, we must also define what a "person" is.

What makes a person, as opposed to a mere ball of cells or even a fully developed animal? Of course, if you are an animal rights activist, you will also claim that even most animals have a natural right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, but since animals in nature constantly kill and eat each other, and since we are talking about a legal matter applicable only to humans, let's assume that argument does not apply and that we are only talking about humans and what makes them different from all other animals.

Certainly, if we judge personhood by genetics, we'd have to conceed the point that a human being is a unique individual from conception onward. But that does not define personhood, because skin cells or blood shed from a human also have unique genetic characteristics, which is what makes DNA testing possible. Yet they are in most cases no longer even alive. A person is the totality of his body, not just its individual cells.

Having disposed of the animals rights issue and the genetics issue, let us focus on the one thing that truly separates humans from other animals: their brains.

Of course, whales and elephants have brains far bigger than humans, but they also have larger bodies. Indeed, human brain to body proportions are much greater than any other animals species.

But what really makes human brains special is not just their size, but their cerebral cortexes. So it would be reasonable to conclude than when the cerebral cortex has reached a certain level of development in the human fetus, then we can say that fetus has reached a level of personhood and should now be legally protected.

When is this? Let's look at the actual data:

< http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/dev.html >

It would appear that the brain of an embryo/fetus starts to develop its cerebral cortex at 11 weeks and the process is nearly complete at 8 months, long after the fetus has reached the physical level of viability (able to survive outside the womb).

But appearances can be misleading. For the next step in our research, we should look into brain wave patterns in embryos or fetuses.

< http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_fetu.htm >

26 weeks or 6 months: The fetus 14" long and almost two pounds. The lungs' bronchioles develop. Interlinking of the brain's neurons begins. The higher functions of the fetal brain turn on for the first time. Some rudimentary brain waves can be detected. The fetus will be able to feel pain for the first time. It has become conscious of its surroundings. The fetus has become a sentient human life for the first time.

That's it! From a strictly scientific and logical perspective, fetal personhood may be legally defined as starting at 26 weeks. However,

22 weeks or 5 months: 12" long and weighing about a pound, the fetus has hair on its head. Its movements can be felt. An abortion is usually unavailable at this gestational age because of state and province medical society regulations, except under very unusual circumstances. Half-way through the 22nd week, the fetus' lungs may be developed to the point where it would have a miniscule chance to live on its own. State laws and medical association regulations generally outlaw almost all abortions beyond 20 or 21 weeks gestation. "A baby born during the 22nd week has a 14.8 percent chance of survival. And about half of these survivors are brain-damaged, either by lack of oxygen (from poor initial respiration) or too much oxygen (from the ventilator). Neonatologists predict that no baby will ever be viable before the 22nd week, because before then the lungs are not fully formed." 4 Of course, if someone develops an artificial womb, then this limit could change suddenly.


So we might play it safe and push back a legal definition of personhood to 22 weeks, to avoid the possibility of aborting a viable fetus. Ban abortion after that, but allow it before that.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



This is a perfect example of using science and reason to address a hot issue, not religion!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Dale,

I believe I made almost all those same points in our previous discussions-no God botting necessary.  You were the one that brought up crimes against Jesus or whatever it was you said, and I told you that Jesus had nothing to do with it.  

Ultimately, you believe the same things the I do as well as what the Bible teaches.  That sucks, eh?  You're arguing with me for no reason other than you can't stand the thought of holding to anything biblical.
Posted by: Dale_Husband on Jan. 23 2011,23:45

Quote (MadPanda @ FCD,Jan. 23 2011,23:37)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,23:21)
There you are doing the same thing as Dale.  If it was only the 'believer's' side of the line that was claiming their way is the only way, and that they are the only ones "tearing others apart" we wouldn't have any arguments, would we?  Do none of you get that?  Can't you see that both sides are pushing for their own beliefs and, agendas and worldview?  *Both* sides tear at each other.  We need to all stop with the anger, quit being so defensive and try to understand each other rather than play the blame game.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


That's a false equivalence, at best.  Even if I were to grant you the NOMA, which I don't, only one side actually has practical support.

There is this thing called reality.  It does not go away when you decide to stop believing in it.  It is also a harsh mistress and a firm taskmaster (if you'll forgive the mixed metaphor).

If you wish to be taken seriously, you need to present evidence.  Not anecdote, not testimony, not quote scripture, not assertions...evidence.

What part of that are you not willing to understand?


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Right, and not that book full of crap titled "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" by professional con-artist and all around idiot Josh McDowell. REAL evidence, FTK! Something that cannot be debunked by reality!
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,23:45

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Jan. 23 2011,23:26)
OH HAI



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
We need to all stop with the anger, quit being so defensive and try to understand each other rather than play the blame game.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



sure thing.  just.as.soon. as they stop trying to teach bullshit in science class.

and besides i think all you white people are crazy don't know what this "both sides" stuff is.  lol
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


OH HAI Erasmus...it's been a while....kisses & hugs...;P
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 23 2011,23:50

Night folks...past my bedtime.  Thanks for the convos..interesting way to spend a cold, boring day.
Posted by: Dale_Husband on Jan. 23 2011,23:52

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,23:43)
Dale,

I believe I made almost all those same points in our previous discussions-no God botting necessary.  You were the one that brought up crimes against Jesus or whatever it was you said, and I told you that Jesus had nothing to do with it.  

Ultimately, you believe the same things the I do as well as what the Bible teaches.  That sucks, eh?  You're arguing with me for no reason other than you can't stand the thought of holding to anything biblical.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Did you not see the quote I gave from Psalms about killing babies? Go back and read that!

What I can't stand is dishonesty and stupidity, period.
Posted by: MadPanda, FCD on Jan. 24 2011,00:02

Quote (Dale_Husband @ Jan. 23 2011,23:52)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,23:43)
Dale,

I believe I made almost all those same points in our previous discussions-no God botting necessary.  You were the one that brought up crimes against Jesus or whatever it was you said, and I told you that Jesus had nothing to do with it.  

Ultimately, you believe the same things the I do as well as what the Bible teaches.  That sucks, eh?  You're arguing with me for no reason other than you can't stand the thought of holding to anything biblical.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Did you not see the quote I gave from Psalms about killing babies? Go back and read that!

What I can't stand is dishonesty and stupidity, period.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


She may not be dishonest so much as cognitively dissonant.  She has certainly mistaken truthiness for truth.

But we're so angry.  And defensive.  And obviously the only reason we don't accept her Trooth (tm pat pend) is that we aren't filled with a figment of her imagination, which is somehow subordinate to and yet part of her imaginary friend*.  (eyeroll)  I sense a bit of projection, here, but that may be my confirmation bias acting up.


The MadPanda, FCD

(* The doctrine of the Trinity is rather amusing, or would be if not for all the blood spilled over it across the years.)
Posted by: Dale_Husband on Jan. 24 2011,00:16

Quote (MadPanda @ FCD,Jan. 24 2011,00:02)
(* The doctrine of the Trinity is rather amusing, or would be if not for all the blood spilled over it across the years.)
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I'm a Unitarian Universalist. That means I don't beleive in the Trinity, I don't believe in eternal hell, and I insist on judging all religious claims by reason. Most of them don't pass the test. If there is a God, he cannot be seen, so assuming he must exist and calling that a fact is as delusional as it gets. But to be fair, I do not deny God's existence and thus would not call God anyone's imaginary friend. The Biblical vision of God is certainly bogus, though!
Posted by: MadPanda, FCD on Jan. 24 2011,00:37

Yes, Dale, I know you're a UU, but that's immaterial to the point I was making about the doctrine of the Trinity.

God counts as an imaginary friend whether you'd say so or not...unless you can provide evidence otherwise.   :)   If I am not going to allow Odin, Thor, Zeus, Cthulhu, Amaterasu, Shiva, Ganesh (regrettably), Hanuman (also regrettably), Inanna, or any of the other multitude of purported deities to pass for given, I'm certainly not going to do it for any prospective, undefined, unevidenced entity.  That would be disrespectful in the extreme, to make an exception for something more familiar simply because I'd grown up hearing about it.  (I am not agnostic about leprechauns, nor about unicorns, dragons, qiling, or flying monkeys.  Why should I blindly accept Bigfoot without plenty of evidence?)

Frankly, I'd settle for someone making a sincere effort to prove the supremacy of Ganesh.  He's supposed to be laid back and fond of parties, so if we must have a deity we could do worst.


The MadPanda, FCD
Posted by: oldmanintheskydidntdoit on Jan. 24 2011,02:59

FTK,
Should abortion be make illegal, what punishment would you deem appropriate for those who have illegal abortions?
Posted by: Occam's Toothbrush on Jan. 24 2011,04:35

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Jan. 24 2011,03:59)
FTK,
Should abortion be make illegal, what punishment would you deem appropriate for those who have illegal abortions?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Based on the "abortion is murder" reasoning, it should be a capital crime in death penalty states (like Kansas), right?  Premeditated murder of the tiny human being in her womb, right?  Ftk, should it be electric chair, lethal injection, hanging, or the firing squad?
Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on Jan. 24 2011,05:11

Quite surprisingly, I find myself comming in defense of FTK.

In this particular conversation, she has clearly stated that she personnaly doesn't want a legislation promoting or condemning abortion. She stated her own personal opinion on the subject, laced with god-stuff because she has a system of belief and keeps to it. We don't care much about the god-stuff, and I would say that she is totaly free to believe as fervently as she does, if it helps her with her life. Because most loonies on her side of the religious spectrum are trying to impose their views and morals through legislation (on the issue of abortion, I mean) doesn't mean she does. For this one, I will not bag her with the other nutjobs.

On this particular issue, I find FTK to be reasonable (i.e in contrast to her past stance regarding ID in schools). I do not agree with what she's saying, but she's not forcing her views on anyone. So for now I am inclined to make concessions and discuss the issues without attacking her faith.

AFAIK, she could be an atheist and still have the same opinion about abortion. She's a mother, and I can totaly understand her view, even if I don't share it.

Exact same thing for sex and promiscuity. She didn't tell us that we were all evil sinners and where going to burn in hell. She stated her opinion based on her own experiences and those of people around her (not counting the unreferenced paper, which I find a bit dubious). We have had different experiences and know people that also had different experiences. And the bible has nothing to do with FTK's or anyone else's position on this subject.

So if FTK is ok to stop the god-stuff altogether, and we agree not to bring it on the table, this could be a very interesting discussion.

But I'm obviously stating the obvious...
Posted by: Louis on Jan. 24 2011,06:48

SD,

This presumes that FTK is telling the truth, and accurately representing it, when she says she is not trying to "force" her abortion views onto others.



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
"Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and give unto God what is God's."  

Christ never said anything about a worldly government take over.  His ministry was ultimately about truth, love and eternal life.  That means that a "Christian nation" is not a necessity for me.  My beliefs that lead me to vote according to God's will is NOT because I want to shove my views down someone elses throat or make them live a particular way.  I'll vote the way for what I think is best accordingly to my worldview just as you will for yours.  It's dangerous having a particular religion having ultimate control....I have no problem with separation of Church and State unless it's taken so far from context that the Church doesn't have the same rights as everyone else.  Furthermore, if a "Christian Nation" was established, what form of "Christianity" would that be???  

I can state my opinions and vote according to my biblical beliefs.  But, if the majority vote is against my POV, so be it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



I will take a reasonable amount of convincing that this is not faux reasonableness from FTK. But then I am truly a nasty bastard, and am probably doing her a disservice.

Things like this:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Can't you see that both sides are pushing for their own beliefs and, agendas and worldview?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Point me towards the opinion that little has changed and disingenuity is occuring. FTK loves a false equivalence, and loves an assertion about her invisible friend in the sky. All derives neatly from there for her.

"I'll just use my vote as my conscience dictates, just like you" is her cry. How reasonable! How democratically unobjectionable! Of course on this we can all agree, surely? And surely we can.

But this is not the sum of her claims now is it? Her opinion, which is rightly hers and I'll defend her right to have it and vote on it to the death, is equal to anyone else's, right? Wrong. Different opinions on how a situation should be managed out there in the real world have different consequences. Even if FTK and any pro-choice advocate can agree on a set of shared principles on an issue like abortion (bon chance!), getting her past the hurdle of enormous denial and cognitive dissonance to an acknowledgement that her cherished, voted on opinions have greater, measurable negative consequences than the cherished, voted on opinions of someone else out there in the real world is going to be unlikely. Getting her to acknowledge that this is something that matters is probably even harder.

FTK is in the glorious position of KNOWING what is right before she approaches the problem. Any problem. She has a little book of answers and all she has to do is follow god's word. God's word says abortion is wrong, well abortion is wrong. Oh she'll cherry pick a study here or there to "support" her position but she won't consider the consilient, wider data for a variety of reasons. Not least of which being that it is hard work and leads to conflicts with her preconceived notions. Note this is the point at which the FTKs of this world project this attitude back outwards. THEY reason from unexamined, unquestionable preconceived notions therefore EVERYONE reasons from unexamined, unquestionable preconceived notions in exactly the same way. She doesn't THINK god exists, she KNOWS. She doesn't THINK about her religious beliefs, she KNOWS them. She equally KNOWS that everybody else must be doing things the same way she is, anything else in inconceivable!

This is absolutely anti-knowledge, anti-reason, anti-intellectual. The idea that there might be a way to test ideas that doesn't rely on mythical authority has yet to occur to her, I'd imagine it frightens her. But then, as I've observed before, who'd have thought that the post-modernist, relativist Left would ally so neatly with the religious, authoritarian Right? They both hate the idea that there might be a way to test their ideas beyond reference to some authority (god's or their own). What these people think is pretty irrelevant, and usually mutually contradictory. HOW they think is important. Tragically I must scrub out that "they" and put in a "we", for there truly is no "them", there is only "us" and constant intellectual honesty and vigilance the price of admission.

By "telling the truth" above I don't mean to insinuate that the only possible alternative is that FTK is lying (i.e. deliberately, knowingly distorting a truth she is consciously aware of), there are many other possibilites. Personally, I favour "bullshitting" in the Harry Frankfurt sense. I think this is a massively underused term. "Bullshitting" in this sense refers to the user's intent with regards to something else, not the user's intent with regard to the truth. A liar know what the truth is and cares enough about it to deliberately deceive someone about it. A bullshitter is not interested in, and may not even know, what the truth is, they have another intent, another set of motives. A salesman is most likely a bullshitter, they want to sell. Their motivation is making the sale, making money. It doesn't actually matter to them if the widget is the greatest widget in the world or actually does what is claimed, what matters is that it sells. Sell the sizzle and whatever the sausage actually is will follow surely. This is not intended to impugn the honour and integrity of salesmen or FTK, and perhaps I've expressed it badly, but bullshitting is vastly more common than lying. Lying is the nasty one, bullshitting can be a forgivable vice by comparison.

FTK already knows what she needs to know about abortion, at least in her mind. Her prepackaged set of ideas tells her that it's wrong, she'll spin yarns, pick anecdotes and cherry pick data to minimise her own sense of cognitive dissonance. She is, after all, human, and that is what we, you and I included, do best in the face of cognitive dissonance. The trick is to be aware of it, and it's not an easy trick. Acknowledging that her claimed experience is not normative, and therefore inapplicable as a means of deciding what X to put where on what ballot paper regarding an issue like abortion, is something she simply is not capable of doing in my experience. As per usual, I will be simply overjoyed to be proven wrong and when this occurs I will shout it from the treetops. Forgive me if I find this unlikely.

Louis
Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on Jan. 24 2011,07:09

Louis, I never implied it was going to be a discussion prone to change her mind on the subject. I just said it would be an interesting discussion. And that if we could all debate in calm, polite, religion-free manners for a while, it would probably be quite nice.

I think that your definitions of bullshiting and lying are spot-on. Past experiences with FTK would point to bullshiting, but I feel inclined to give her the benefice of the doubt and see her arguments through. She says she will vote the way her heart and beliefs tell her to, but she also points out that she is against pro or anti abortion laws. This is the bit I am interested in. When you remember how adamant she was of ID being taught in science classes, I find her stance on the issue of abortion to be quite more reasonable: "I'm against it, but I won't force my views onto others by means of a law". She thinks abortion is bad, and who could blame her? She is, after all, a mother. But she didn't say (here at least) "abortion is bad, I want it outlawed and perpetrators prosecuted, condemned, executed".

This is where I think the debate would be interesting, as for once FTK is relatively reasonable and seems willing to see the other's POV (well, at least I hope so, else you can erase all I've said in my last two posts for the court transcript).

Again, I might be totaly mistaken and she might have a hidden agenda, but I'm willing to see where this is going. We'll never sway her, but maybe she'll kinda understand the opposite view a bit better, even if she still disagrees with it.

Yet again, the birthday dinner, subsequent massage and sexy time were lovely, so I think I might be blinded by the pink veil of happiness today...
Posted by: Louis on Jan. 24 2011,07:17

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 24 2011,13:09)
Louis, I never implied it was going to be a discussion prone to change her mind on the subject. I just said it would be an interesting discussion. And that if we could all debate in calm, polite, religion-free manners for a while, it would probably be quite nice.

I think that your definitions of bullshiting and lying are spot-on. Past experiences with FTK would point to bullshiting, but I feel inclined to give her the benefice of the doubt and see her arguments through. She says she will vote the way her heart and beliefs tell her to, but she also points out that she is against pro or anti abortion laws. This is the bit I am interested in. When you remember how adamant she was of ID being taught in science classes, I find her stance on the issue of abortion to be quite more reasonable: "I'm against it, but I won't force my views onto others by means of a law". She thinks abortion is bad, and who could blame her? She is, after all, a mother. But she didn't say (here at least) "abortion is bad, I want it outlawed and perpetrators prosecuted, condemned, executed".

This is where I think the debate would be interesting, as for once FTK is relatively reasonable and seems willing to see the other's POV (well, at least I hope so, else you can erase all I've said in my last two posts for the court transcript).

Again, I might be totaly mistaken and she might have a hidden agenda, but I'm willing to see where this is going. We'll never sway her, but maybe she'll kinda understand the opposite view a bit better, even if she still disagrees with it.

Yet again, the birthday dinner, subsequent massage and sexy time were lovely, so I think I might be blinded by the pink veil of happiness today...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Oh it would be quiet nice, I agree. I just didn't get a birthday dinner so I am clouded by the grey bastarding fog of scepticism. ;-)

Louis
Posted by: khan on Jan. 24 2011,11:01

Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 23 2011,20:41)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,16:52)
As for abortion, no woman is ever left unscared by a decision like that...it is with her for life.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Actually, FtK, I had abortion 4 years ago.  I got pregnant on purpose, because my partner of nearly nine years had been wheedling for half a decade about wanting children.  So, I finally relented, even though I had misgivings about him as both a father and a lifetime mate due to his insane jealousy, control freak nature, and steady decline toward Right Wing retardation over the years.

Two weeks into the pregnancy, before I knew for certain that I even WAS in such a condition, Psycho Boy decided that my willingness to have a baby MUST have been because I had cheated on him, gotten pregnant, and was trying to cuckold him, making him believe the child was his when it was actaully my lover's.  He screamed at me, called me a slut, told me that I'd better hope I wasn't pregnant because as soon as it was born he wanted a DNA test and if it wasn't his he was "going to punch [my] fucking face in".

So, I told him to go screw himself six ways from Sunday, told him not to let the door hit him in the ass on the way out, took a pregnancy test, found out I WAS pregnant, had to wait an extra week before I could get the chemical abortion, went back, took my pills, had a heavy period, and was MUCH better, thank you very much.

I have NEVER for one second regretted my decision.  I escaped a bad situation with a dangerous man and spared a kid (if I had even been able to carry to term) a miserable existence as an emotional weapon to be used by its mentally unbalanced father who would have NEVER surrendered his parental rights so would have, by law, been involved.

There's a whole website for women with stories like mine.  All who had abortions, and all who don't regret it.  I know that sick people like you rub your hands together with glee at the thought that "one day" we'll be sick with guilt and regret and be "judged".  Don't hold your breath, sister.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I had an abortion in 1991 when I was 41 because I decided when I was ~10 that I would never give birth.
Posted by: the_ignored on Jan. 24 2011,12:24

Forgive me, but doesn't it seem that arguing with "Ftk" over abortion has gone slightly off the thread topic?
Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on Jan. 24 2011,12:29

Quote (the_ignored @ Jan. 24 2011,18:24)
Forgive me, but doesn't it seem that arguing with "Ftk" over abortion has gone slightly off the thread topic?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It clearly has, and maybe some mod (Wes, Lou, Kristine...) would be so kind as to split the topic?
Posted by: oldmanintheskydidntdoit on Jan. 24 2011,13:09

Quote (Occam's Toothbrush @ Jan. 24 2011,04:35)
Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Jan. 24 2011,03:59)
FTK,
Should abortion be make illegal, what punishment would you deem appropriate for those who have illegal abortions?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Based on the "abortion is murder" reasoning, it should be a capital crime in death penalty states (like Kansas), right?  Premeditated murder of the tiny human being in her womb, right?  Ftk, should it be electric chair, lethal injection, hanging, or the firing squad?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Yeah, this is the thing for me. I've yet to hear anybody who supports removing the right to legal abortions say that the punishment for having one should be the death penalty.

Which is odd to me as it shows that there's an inconsistency in those peoples claims that they are either not aware of or don't want to face.

Anyway, sure, this is OT, but it's always OT when FTK is around  :p
Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on Jan. 24 2011,13:15

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Jan. 24 2011,19:09)
Quote (Occam's Toothbrush @ Jan. 24 2011,04:35)
 
Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Jan. 24 2011,03:59)
FTK,
Should abortion be make illegal, what punishment would you deem appropriate for those who have illegal abortions?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Based on the "abortion is murder" reasoning, it should be a capital crime in death penalty states (like Kansas), right?  Premeditated murder of the tiny human being in her womb, right?  Ftk, should it be electric chair, lethal injection, hanging, or the firing squad?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Yeah, this is the thing for me. I've yet to hear anybody who supports removing the right to legal abortions say that the punishment for having one should be the death penalty.

Which is odd to me as it shows that there's an inconsistency in those peoples claims that they are either not aware of or don't want to face.

Anyway, sure, this is OT, but it's always OT when FTK is around  :p
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


In her defense (woot???) FTK never clearly proposed to remove anyone's right to abortion. She just stated her opinion.

But I admit it would be fun* to see a pro-life moron, screaming "death to the abortionists!!!".

Talk about logic...





*up to a point.
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Jan. 24 2011,13:24

oh consistency is a cruel mistress and you can't expect everyone to continue to pay her way into the movies.

BUT at least FtK is playing well with others this time for now.  For fuck's sake this recent round of trollbotting makes everyone else look fantastic.  FtK please chime in and tell Kris all about it.  the hubby, walt brown, hon, herons, noah and the boys, whatev.  he needs a good dose of your domesticated whatever it is.  glad you are still kicking!
Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on Jan. 24 2011,13:29

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Jan. 24 2011,19:24)
oh consistency is a cruel mistress and you can't expect everyone to continue to pay her way into the movies.

BUT at least FtK is playing well with others this time for now.  For fuck's sake this recent round of trollbotting makes everyone else look fantastic.  FtK please chime in and tell Kris all about it.  the hubby, walt brown, hon, herons, noah and the boys, whatev.  he needs a good dose of your domesticated whatever it is.  glad you are still kicking!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------




---------------------QUOTE-------------------
whatev.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Did you actualy save typing time by removing 2 letters from a perfectly writable word?

Way to go Ras! great exemple for our (yet to be born) children!!!


:D
Posted by: the_ignored on Jan. 24 2011,13:53

This is great:  On that < post about abortion and PZ Myers > it seems that "Spacebunny" has decided that her hubby needs help.

Little twit just doesn't know when to leave well enough alone.  Though the same could be said of me.  :p
Posted by: oldmanintheskydidntdoit on Jan. 24 2011,15:47

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 24 2011,13:15)
In her defense (woot???) FTK never clearly proposed to remove anyone's right to abortion. She just stated her opinion.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I know. I'm not "attacking" FTK, all that was so, well, long time go. Just asking a question I'd like FTK in particular to answer as I assume that all things being equal FTK would in fact like to see abortion made illegal. And so I'm interested in her answer.

Correct me if I'm wrong in my assumptions, please, FTK.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 24 2011,17:16

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Jan. 24 2011,15:47)
 
Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 24 2011,13:15)
In her defense (woot???) FTK never clearly proposed to remove anyone's right to abortion. She just stated her opinion.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I know. I'm not "attacking" FTK, all that was so, well, long time go. Just asking a question I'd like FTK in particular to answer as I assume that all things being equal FTK would in fact like to see abortion made illegal. And so I'm interested in her answer.

Correct me if I'm wrong in my assumptions, please, FTK.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


< addressed already >

And, I suppose you're waiting for your hello hug and kiss too...~*muah*~
Posted by: dheddle on Jan. 24 2011,19:02

Quote (the_ignored @ Jan. 24 2011,13:53)
This is great:  On that < post about abortion and PZ Myers > it seems that "Spacebunny" has decided that her hubby needs help.

Little twit just doesn't know when to leave well enough alone.  Though the same could be said of me.  :p
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I haven't been traveling in the usual jaunts--that's the first I read of PZ's comments about meat. And probably the first time I ever thought: PZ is really stupid. I always thought he was self-absorbed--and everything had to be about him or he lost his patience--but still I had some begrudging respect for him. But that meat comment was dumb. It would be hard to imagine any other marquee atheist attempting—so blatantly—to draw attention to himself. See, I’m the PZ. I can always ratchet up my outrageousness just so people will talk about me.

I don’t think I ever agreed with this Vox Day creature before—but he was spot on when he wrote

   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
The awful thing is not that the pictures do not frighten him; they do not frighten me either. The awful thing is that he does not find them revolting like any normal human being with even a minimal amount of empathy would.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



This was PZ, already the Tom Green of atheism, jumping the shark.
Posted by: khan on Jan. 24 2011,19:36

Should have known fetus fetishist heddle would show up
Posted by: dheddle on Jan. 24 2011,19:49

Quote (khan @ Jan. 24 2011,19:36)
Should have known fetus fetishist heddle would show up
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


And why should you "know" that? My views on abortion are mostly private. I almost never comment on abortion threads. I bet you could go through the abortion threads on AtBC and not find comments from me.

Can you provide any evidence that I am a "fetus fetishist?" (I'll answer for you: no you can't; you're making shit up.)

The point of commenting here is that I would like to think that even if I were pro-choice I would readily admit that PZ's comments were repulsive.
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Jan. 24 2011,20:31

pearl clutching FTW.  for fucks sake have these dooshes never used the interwebz
Posted by: Texas Teach on Jan. 24 2011,21:09

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Jan. 24 2011,20:31)
pearl clutching FTW.  for fucks sake have these dooshes never used the interwebz
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Notice also how heddle has, in complaining about PZ trying to make it all about himself, set in motion making it all about heddle?
Posted by: dheddle on Jan. 24 2011,21:16

Quote (Texas Teach @ Jan. 24 2011,21:09)
   
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Jan. 24 2011,20:31)
pearl clutching FTW.  for fucks sake have these dooshes never used the interwebz
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Notice also how heddle has, in complaining about PZ trying to make it all about himself, set in motion making it all about heddle?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Yes I did notice that. Because it is well known that posting a comment about someone making all about himself is to make it all about one's self. Still, I was hoping that would slip through--but no fooling you! I'm so busted.

And I'm dheddle, dammit.
Posted by: Wolfhound on Jan. 24 2011,21:43

Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 24 2011,20:49)
The point of commenting here is that I would like to think that even if I were pro-choice I would readily admit that PZ's comments were repulsive.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


But, you clearly AREN'T pro-choice so projecting your own squik threshold on those who don't share your particular bias is rather pointless.

I happen to agree with PZ and you and other religiously motivated knicker twisters can get the vapours all you want. Just stay the fuck off of my fainting couch, you wankers.
Posted by: MadPanda, FCD on Jan. 24 2011,21:44

Heddle can't help it.  He's a Calvinist.


The MadPanda, FCD
Posted by: oldmanintheskydidntdoit on Jan. 25 2011,03:02

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 24 2011,17:16)
And, I suppose you're waiting for your hello hug and kiss too...~*muah*~
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


No, I'm waiting for you to address my last PM to you, of several years standing, which you said was "interesting" but nothing else. Coward.
Posted by: oldmanintheskydidntdoit on Jan. 25 2011,03:10

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 23 2011,22:38)
 Education, counseling and support should be a priority here, not a sentence of some sort for those who chose abortion.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Answered, but not the actual question I asked.

If abortion was illegal, you could not "choose" it in the same way you would choose other options.

If it was illegal then unless there was a punishment it's not really illegal is it? I can't think of anything else that's illegal but has no punishment attached.

And would you want education, counseling and support for somebody who killed a 1 month old baby? I guess not.

So why the double standard?
Posted by: dheddle on Jan. 25 2011,03:11

Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 24 2011,21:43)
   
Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 24 2011,20:49)
The point of commenting here is that I would like to think that even if I were pro-choice I would readily admit that PZ's comments were repulsive.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


But, you clearly AREN'T pro-choice so projecting your own squik threshold on those who don't share your particular bias is rather pointless.

I happen to agree with PZ and you and other religiously motivated knicker twisters can get the vapours all you want. Just stay the fuck off of my fainting couch, you wankers.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You agree with him that pictures of mangled aborted fetuses inspire  no thoughts other than "it's just meat?".

For crying out loud, when I see a dead unborn bird (the egg fell) it makes me feel sad.  And that has nothing to do with religion.

Not you. Regardless of your stand on abortion, you can truly look at aborted fetuses with no metaphysical connection, even if only to the potential human whose parts are clearly recognizable, lying in a bloody heap? Even without ascribing any moral culpability to anyone, or even acknowledging that that there is any moral issue, even if the abortion was most straightforward inarguable case, (say, saving the life of a woman who was incestuously gang-raped) even then it would be the equivalent of looking at meat?  

Then, like PZ, you are also a cold-hearted scumbag with no empathy.

But none of that was my point, which was the speculation none of the other big-name atheists would be stupid enough to write what PZ wrote. They make names for themselves by their writing with style and class. PZ by does it by shocking.

Of course you didn't grasp what I was saying. All you did was the reflexive: religious person speaking--must disagree. Everything is good-guy/bad-guy.

So you know what? You can bite me, jackass.
Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on Jan. 25 2011,04:09

dheddle, I'd rather argue that you are a bit over-sensitive.

Yes, a fœtus is a potential human being. So is an ovum or a spermatozoid.

Sorry, but I don't feel sad every time I throw away the equivalent of the population of Netherlands after a good wanking. Also, I don't see my girlfriend as a mass murdering cannibal.

I hope you don't cry every month when your partner gets her period.

Until a baby is born and starts getting functional cognitive developpment, it is not, per say, a human being. A potential one, yes, but just as an ovum or a spermatozoid.

Which doesn't mean I, or ayone else here, don't understand your point of view, but please don't judge the morality of others based solely on your own feelings. Would you say a mortician or a forensic doctor are heartless because they do their job without feeling sad for the person they're working on?
Posted by: the_ignored on Jan. 25 2011,04:13



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
dheddle
Then, like PZ, you are also a cold-hearted scumbag with no empathy.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



If that was the case, then he would not give a rat's ass about all the child sexual abuse cases the catholic church is responsible for.  Those victims you see, were unambigiously human, already having developed enough to be born and live.

With a few week old fetus, which doesn't even have a nervous system that can feel pain, or have any kind of consciousness, it's not quite so clear.

Some people regard it as "fully human" (the faux pro-lifers of religious bent) and some atheist pro-lifers like myself, even if they're not fully developed yet.

Think of it this way:  Do you have the same feelings when you open up an egg to cook it as when you see that unborn bird fall?
Posted by: dheddle on Jan. 25 2011,05:22

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 25 2011,04:09)
dheddle, I'd rather argue that you are a bit over-sensitive.

Yes, a fœtus is a potential human being. So is an ovum or a spermatozoid.

Sorry, but I don't feel sad every time I throw away the equivalent of the population of Netherlands after a good wanking. Also, I don't see my girlfriend as a mass murdering cannibal.

I hope you don't cry every month when your partner gets her period.

Until a baby is born and starts getting functional cognitive developpment, it is not, per say, a human being. A potential one, yes, but just as an ovum or a spermatozoid.

Which doesn't mean I, or ayone else here, don't understand your point of view, but please don't judge the morality of others based solely on your own feelings. Would you say a mortician or a forensic doctor are heartless because they do their job without feeling sad for the person they're working on?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Are you that clinical about it? Because, let's grant for the sake of argument, that a sperm and a fetus are both merely potential humans --you have exactly the same [emotionless] response?

I certainly don't. If I see a fetus in a bloody mess with recognizable body parts, I have a different emotional response than if I think of sperm being flushed down the toilet. And I was the same way before I was a Christian. One is much sadder/harder to look at/more poignant--I don't exactly how to describe it--but certainly evokes a different, stronger, more unpleasant emotion.

I'm actually surprised to realize that may not be a universal trait. So maybe PZ is rather commonplace in this regard. If so, my bad.
Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on Jan. 25 2011,05:32

Page turn bug...
Posted by: dheddle on Jan. 25 2011,05:32

Quote (the_ignored @ Jan. 25 2011,04:13)
 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
dheddle
Then, like PZ, you are also a cold-hearted scumbag with no empathy.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



If that was the case, then he would not give a rat's ass about all the child sexual abuse cases the catholic church is responsible for.  Those victims you see, were unambigiously human, already having developed enough to be born and live.

With a few week old fetus, which doesn't even have a nervous system that can feel pain, or have any kind of consciousness, it's not quite so clear.

Some people regard it as "fully human" (the faux pro-lifers of religious bent) and some atheist pro-lifers like myself, even if they're not fully developed yet.

Think of it this way:  Do you have the same feelings when you open up an egg to cook it as when you see that unborn bird fall?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You are missing the boat. I am not arguing about the pain the fetus may or may not feel. I am arguing from (it would appear, a false assumption) that no normal person, independent of their religious views, could examine pictures of aborted fetuses and not experience some kind of emotional response beyond "it is just meat."

As for the egg vice the recognizable unborn bird drying out in my driveway whose egg feel from the tree, I do not think of them the same way. That's the point. Do you think of them the same way?  Does the latter not generate a response different from the former?
Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on Jan. 25 2011,05:34

The feeling I have is more of repulsion and disgust, but that's just because I don't really like seeing blood. But it will never be a feeling of sadness, that's for sure...
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Jan. 25 2011,05:50

for shits sake a pile of hotdogs and fava beans is also a potential human being.  but i bet you don't get all weepy eyed when your freezer takes a crap.

"rate my emotional response" is tres passe

pharyngula is a fanboi cesspool.  and if the SHTF PZ will be eaten first.  look at him, he's a doughy wanker.  and he probably doesn't know a banjo from a double headed dildo

other than that, who cares?  there is nothing rational about this meat faggery.  and no fucko that doesn't make anyone a monster just because they don't share your hallmark sentiments.  

nearly everyone has some sort of emotions, most people can't [or don't give a fuck about it enough to] share them as a universal common denominator.  it's not like you can yank that shit out and look at it in the light, so who cares?  only people who want to be reeeeeeeeal concerned.  dheddle that's what you are doing aint it?  sure as hell is what everyone else crying about PZ is doing.
Posted by: dheddle on Jan. 25 2011,06:04

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Jan. 25 2011,05:50)
for shits sake a pile of hotdogs and fava beans is also a potential human being.  but i bet you don't get all weepy eyed when your freezer takes a crap.

"rate my emotional response" is tres passe

pharyngula is a fanboi cesspool.  and if the SHTF PZ will be eaten first.  look at him, he's a doughy wanker.  and he probably doesn't know a banjo from a double headed dildo

other than that, who cares?  there is nothing rational about this meat faggery.  and no fucko that doesn't make anyone a monster just because they don't share your hallmark sentiments.  

nearly everyone has some sort of emotions, most people can't [or don't give a fuck about it enough to] share them as a universal common denominator.  it's not like you can yank that shit out and look at it in the light, so who cares?  only people who want to be reeeeeeeeal concerned.  dheddle that's what you are doing aint it?  sure as hell is what everyone else crying about PZ is doing.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Maybe that's what I'm doing. But I prefer to think that I am lashing out at a stupid comment. Isn't that the lingua franca of AtBC?

Are you sure about that "nobody cares about emotions" argument? Are you sure I couldn't search the archives of AtBC and find comments about the emotions--comments on someone getting "weepy", etc.--of the UD commenters?

And of course the gist of my original comment on PZ was that his meat comment made me think of him as stupid. In a way that someone who is impolitic sometimes appears to be stupid--when it is gratuitous.
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Jan. 25 2011,06:10

the commenters on his blag are what demean my perceptions of the man lol

oh i am sure that there is all sorts of emotional tripe on here.  the difference is that you Dave seem to be are judging his response relative to your own as some sort of standard.  And we all have one and they all stink, and that's a wasted exercise I think.  

for all we know PZ could have been playing "street theatre".  all i can tell you is that i can't really be arsed to give a damn enough to form an opinion about his opinions about things that don't have opinions.  

especially when this clown in the other thread is in hilariously high dudgeon
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 25 2011,08:02

dheddle, they are just yanking your chain hoping for an emotional response.  They have to stick to the script due to their own lifestyles.  

No one, and I mean no one, can look at pictures of human fetuses being killed and removed from their Mothers without feeling revoltion, empathy and remorse.  

Unless, of course, they have the mentality of a Jeffrey Dahmer.

March for Life took place at the White House yesterday.  Good for them.  If we sit back and let these travesties occur without response, they will only increase substantially.
Posted by: J-Dog on Jan. 25 2011,08:09

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,08:02)
dheddle, they are just yanking your chain hoping for an emotional response.  They have to stick to the script due to their own lifestyles.  

No one, and I mean no one, can look at pictures of human fetuses being killed and removed from their Mothers without feeling revoltion, empathy and remorse.  

Unless, of course, they have the mentality of a Jeffrey Dahmer.

March for Life took place at the White House yesterday.  Good for them.  If we sit back and let these travesties occur without response, they will only increase substantially.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------




---------------------QUOTE-------------------
March for Life took place at the White House yesterday.  Good for them.  If we sit back and let these travesties occur without response, they will only increase substantially.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------




FTK - I do not think this means what you think it means...You just posted that the March For Life is a travesty.  Subliminal truth - or did The Baby Jesus make you post it?
Posted by: Louis on Jan. 25 2011,08:13

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,14:02)
dheddle, they are just yanking your chain hoping for an emotional response.  They have to stick to the script due to their own lifestyles.  

No one, and I mean no one, can look at pictures of human fetuses being killed and removed from their Mothers without feeling revoltion, empathy and remorse.  

Unless, of course, they have the mentality of a Jeffrey Dahmer.

March for Life took place at the White House yesterday.  Good for them.  If we sit back and let these travesties occur without response, they will only increase substantially.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Way to demonise anyone who disagrees with your emotional, visceral complaints and claims that fall downstream.

"Why those pro-choice people only do it because of their lifestyles, if pictures of dead foetuses don't make them feel exactly the way I do then they must be like a gay serial killer."

Brava! A truly monumental display of ignorance and prejudice. I could have asked for no better from you FTK, thank you.

Louis
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 25 2011,08:18

<shrugs> What I said is true....unless you're subhuman.
Posted by: Louis on Jan. 25 2011,08:32

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,14:18)
<shrugs> What I said is true....unless you're subhuman.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Can we be Nazis too?

Louis
Posted by: oldmanintheskydidntdoit on Jan. 25 2011,08:35

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,08:02)
They have to stick to the script due to their own lifestyles.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Fuck you.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 25 2011,08:40

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Jan. 25 2011,08:35)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,08:02)
They have to stick to the script due to their own lifestyles.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Fuck you.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


<shrugs again>  It's true.
Posted by: oldmanintheskydidntdoit on Jan. 25 2011,08:48

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,08:40)
 
Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Jan. 25 2011,08:35)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,08:02)
They have to stick to the script due to their own lifestyles.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Fuck you.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


<shrugs again>  It's true.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
No one, and I mean no one, can look at pictures of human fetuses being killed and removed from their Mothers without feeling revoltion, empathy and remorse.  
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



What about if you do it (perform abortions) day after day after day after year. Tens of thousands of times. Do really think the 1000th would be the same as the first?

What about if you spend all day cutting up human fetuses for medical research? Would you not become even slightly immune to your initial feelings of "revoltion, empathy and remorse"?

"just another day at the office"?

EDITED for clarity.
Posted by: Louis on Jan. 25 2011,08:49

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,14:40)
Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Jan. 25 2011,08:35)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,08:02)
They have to stick to the script due to their own lifestyles.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Fuck you.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


<shrugs again>  It's true.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Really? What specific aspects of our lifestyles are you referring to? What evidence have you got?

Do you know what the "argumentum ad hominem" is and why it is a logical fallacy?

You're claiming things are true but providing neither detail nor support. Is it possible you are, as before and as ever, merely asserting things as true because you believe them to be the case?

Louis
Posted by: Wolfhound on Jan. 25 2011,08:50

Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,04:11)
You agree with him that pictures of mangled aborted fetuses inspire  no thoughts other than "it's just meat?".

For crying out loud, when I see a dead unborn bird (the egg fell) it makes me feel sad.  And that has nothing to do with religion.

Not you. Regardless of your stand on abortion, you can truly look at aborted fetuses with no metaphysical connection, even if only to the potential human whose parts are clearly recognizable, lying in a bloody heap? Even without ascribing any moral culpability to anyone, or even acknowledging that that there is any moral issue, even if the abortion was most straightforward inarguable case, (say, saving the life of a woman who was incestuously gang-raped) even then it would be the equivalent of looking at meat?  

Then, like PZ, you are also a cold-hearted scumbag with no empathy.
Of course you didn't grasp what I was saying. All you did was the reflexive: religious person speaking--must disagree. Everything is good-guy/bad-guy.

So you know what? You can bite me, jackass.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Wow, perfesser, you are truly a frothing nutbag and/or are extremely oversensitive.  Talk about me being "reflexive".  Good gumbo!

Either way, you're pretty rabid and, like PZ, I really don't give a flying fig about your opinion one way or another.  If you came here looking for your outrage to be affirmed by others, you clearly picked the wrong venue.  

And you cane bite me in return, jackass.

Wow!  Isn't this fun?   :)
Posted by: Louis on Jan. 25 2011,08:57

Hmmmm, I wonder:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
dheddle, they are just yanking your chain hoping for an emotional response.  They have to stick to the script due to their own lifestyles.  

No one, and I mean no one, can look at pictures of, and statisics about, the harm women suffer under conditions where abortions are outlawed or restricted without feeling revoltion, empathy and remorse.  

Unless, of course, they have the mentality of a Jeffrey Dahmer.

March for Choice took place at the White House yesterday.  Good for them.  If we sit back and let these travesties occur without response, they will only increase substantially.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Oh look! I can play "Rhetorical Demonisation Without Basis In Fact" too. I can haz cookie nao?

Louis
Posted by: Wolfhound on Jan. 25 2011,08:58

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,09:18)
<shrugs> What I said is true....unless you're subhuman.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Annnnnnnd she drops her kissy-poo, sweetness n' light, "can't we all just along" pretense and returns to her roots by pulling the (reverse) Nazi card.

See, to me and prolly most of the folks here at AtBC, you and Heddle are merely religiously deluded morons for a variety of reasons that have little if anything to do with your stance and/or feelings regarding abortion.  Both of you, however, classify anybody who doesn't have your opinion/response to abortion as less than human.

I find this very telling.
Posted by: Wolfhound on Jan. 25 2011,08:59

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 25 2011,06:34)
The feeling I have is more of repulsion and disgust, but that's just because I don't really like seeing blood. But it will never be a feeling of sadness, that's for sure...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


This.  With strobe lights.
Posted by: Louis on Jan. 25 2011,09:11

Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 25 2011,14:58)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,09:18)
<shrugs> What I said is true....unless you're subhuman.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Annnnnnnd she drops her kissy-poo, sweetness n' light, "can't we all just along" pretense and returns to her roots by pulling the (reverse) Nazi card.

See, to me and prolly most of the folks here at AtBC, you and Heddle are merely religiously deluded morons for a variety of reasons that have little if anything to do with your stance and/or feelings regarding abortion.  Both of you, however, classify anybody who doesn't have your opinion/response to abortion as less than human.

I find this very telling.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I don't put Heddle and FTK in the same box....as far as I put anyone in boxes at all.

Heddle is more than capable of reasoned and reasonable discourse about anything that does not impinge on his religion (which is of course NASCAR) and is probably worth Having a Beer With, no matter how much we disagree about some important things. Hell, if nothing else, at least he could teach me some physics. (Although I will say his current foray into demonising anyone who doesn't elevate his (or their own) visceral reactions to pictures of dismembered foetuses to "important and intellectually meaningful" makes me question this...and not for the first time)

FTK is....how shall I put this...not.

Louis
Posted by: olegt on Jan. 25 2011,09:17

Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 25 2011,08:50)
Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,04:11)
You agree with him that pictures of mangled aborted fetuses inspire  no thoughts other than "it's just meat?".

For crying out loud, when I see a dead unborn bird (the egg fell) it makes me feel sad.  And that has nothing to do with religion.

Not you. Regardless of your stand on abortion, you can truly look at aborted fetuses with no metaphysical connection, even if only to the potential human whose parts are clearly recognizable, lying in a bloody heap? Even without ascribing any moral culpability to anyone, or even acknowledging that that there is any moral issue, even if the abortion was most straightforward inarguable case, (say, saving the life of a woman who was incestuously gang-raped) even then it would be the equivalent of looking at meat?  

Then, like PZ, you are also a cold-hearted scumbag with no empathy.
Of course you didn't grasp what I was saying. All you did was the reflexive: religious person speaking--must disagree. Everything is good-guy/bad-guy.

So you know what? You can bite me, jackass.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Wow, perfesser, you are truly a frothing nutbag and/or are extremely oversensitive.  Talk about me being "reflexive".  Good gumbo!

Either way, you're pretty rabid and, like PZ, I really don't give a flying fig about your opinion one way or another.  If you came here looking for your outrage to be affirmed by others, you clearly picked the wrong venue.  

And you cane bite me in return, jackass.

Wow!  Isn't this fun?   :)
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Heddle is a good guy, Wolfie. You and he might not agree on this emotionally charged subject but there is no need to start a flame war.
Posted by: Richardthughes on Jan. 25 2011,09:18

Quote (olegt @ Jan. 25 2011,09:17)
Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 25 2011,08:50)
Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,04:11)
You agree with him that pictures of mangled aborted fetuses inspire  no thoughts other than "it's just meat?".

For crying out loud, when I see a dead unborn bird (the egg fell) it makes me feel sad.  And that has nothing to do with religion.

Not you. Regardless of your stand on abortion, you can truly look at aborted fetuses with no metaphysical connection, even if only to the potential human whose parts are clearly recognizable, lying in a bloody heap? Even without ascribing any moral culpability to anyone, or even acknowledging that that there is any moral issue, even if the abortion was most straightforward inarguable case, (say, saving the life of a woman who was incestuously gang-raped) even then it would be the equivalent of looking at meat?  

Then, like PZ, you are also a cold-hearted scumbag with no empathy.
Of course you didn't grasp what I was saying. All you did was the reflexive: religious person speaking--must disagree. Everything is good-guy/bad-guy.

So you know what? You can bite me, jackass.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Wow, perfesser, you are truly a frothing nutbag and/or are extremely oversensitive.  Talk about me being "reflexive".  Good gumbo!

Either way, you're pretty rabid and, like PZ, I really don't give a flying fig about your opinion one way or another.  If you came here looking for your outrage to be affirmed by others, you clearly picked the wrong venue.  

And you cane bite me in return, jackass.

Wow!  Isn't this fun?   :)
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Heddle is a good guy, Wolfie. You and he might not agree on this emotionally charged subject but there is no need to start a flame war.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Yeah, I'll vouch for Heddle's character. *squints*. I don't think he always gets it right, but I've always found him to be honest.
Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on Jan. 25 2011,09:19

Please disregard all my previous posts in support of FTK, I was wrong.

Maybe I should replace them with select passages from Anton Lavey's Satanic Bible...

Or LoLcats...

Or pics of dead fœtuses...

Too many choices!!!
Posted by: Louis on Jan. 25 2011,09:22

Quote (olegt @ Jan. 25 2011,15:17)
Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 25 2011,08:50)
Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,04:11)
You agree with him that pictures of mangled aborted fetuses inspire  no thoughts other than "it's just meat?".

For crying out loud, when I see a dead unborn bird (the egg fell) it makes me feel sad.  And that has nothing to do with religion.

Not you. Regardless of your stand on abortion, you can truly look at aborted fetuses with no metaphysical connection, even if only to the potential human whose parts are clearly recognizable, lying in a bloody heap? Even without ascribing any moral culpability to anyone, or even acknowledging that that there is any moral issue, even if the abortion was most straightforward inarguable case, (say, saving the life of a woman who was incestuously gang-raped) even then it would be the equivalent of looking at meat?  

Then, like PZ, you are also a cold-hearted scumbag with no empathy.
Of course you didn't grasp what I was saying. All you did was the reflexive: religious person speaking--must disagree. Everything is good-guy/bad-guy.

So you know what? You can bite me, jackass.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Wow, perfesser, you are truly a frothing nutbag and/or are extremely oversensitive.  Talk about me being "reflexive".  Good gumbo!

Either way, you're pretty rabid and, like PZ, I really don't give a flying fig about your opinion one way or another.  If you came here looking for your outrage to be affirmed by others, you clearly picked the wrong venue.  

And you cane bite me in return, jackass.

Wow!  Isn't this fun?   :)
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Heddle is a good guy, Wolfie. You and he might not agree on this emotionally charged subject but there is no need to start a flame war.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


In Wolfie's defense she definitely did not start it. Heddle and FTK need to tone the {ahem} rhetoric down a notch or two I think...and that's coming from a gigantically mean, foul mouthed fucker like me.

Louis
Posted by: Wolfhound on Jan. 25 2011,09:22

Quote (Louis @ Jan. 25 2011,10:11)
Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 25 2011,14:58)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,09:18)
<shrugs> What I said is true....unless you're subhuman.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Annnnnnnd she drops her kissy-poo, sweetness n' light, "can't we all just along" pretense and returns to her roots by pulling the (reverse) Nazi card.

See, to me and prolly most of the folks here at AtBC, you and Heddle are merely religiously deluded morons for a variety of reasons that have little if anything to do with your stance and/or feelings regarding abortion.  Both of you, however, classify anybody who doesn't have your opinion/response to abortion as less than human.

I find this very telling.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I don't put Heddle and FTK in the same box....as far as I put anyone in boxes at all.

Heddle is more than capable of reasoned and reasonable discourse about anything that does not impinge on his religion (which is of course NASCAR) and is probably worth Having a Beer With, no matter how much we disagree about some important things. Hell, if nothing else, at least he could teach me some physics. (Although I will say his current foray into demonising anyone who doesn't elevate his (or their own) visceral reactions to pictures of dismembered foetuses to "important and intellectually meaningful" makes me question this...and not for the first time)

FTK is....how shall I put this...not.

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Well, that's good to know.  I haven't seen enough of him, evidently, so his rather violent reaction to the fact that when I look at pictures of aborted fetuses (something I prefer not to do, just as I prefer not to watch video of eye surgery) and say, "Icky.  Blood and meat" as opposed to, "OH!  Poor little Bobby will NEVER ride a bike now" put him in FtK territory.  It would appear he's only a silly-billy like FtK on this particular subject.

So, I apologize to Heddle, although it's doubtful he'd accept since I'm an unfeeling monster or somesuch.  *sob*  But YOU love me, don't you, Louis?
Posted by: Louis on Jan. 25 2011,09:24

Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 25 2011,15:22)
[SNIP]

But YOU love me, don't you, Louis?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Unreservedly and without question. And further more: RAWR, but we can talk about THAT another time.

;-)

Louis
Posted by: Wolfhound on Jan. 25 2011,09:34

Quote (Louis @ Jan. 25 2011,10:22)
In Wolfie's defense she definitely did not start it. Heddle and FTK need to tone the {ahem} rhetoric down a notch or two I think...and that's coming from a gigantically mean, foul mouthed fucker like me.

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I WAS a bit (okay, a LOT) taken aback that the response to my calling him a religiously motivated knicker twister was his calling me a "cold-hearted scumbag", a "jackass", and instructing me to "bite [him]".  Okay, so I said he was a wanker, but that just makes him one of the guys.  I will admit I was already het-up by Koncern Troll Kris so saw Heddle's post as more concern trolling.

So, anyway, I'll tone it down.  Because I'm nice.  And cuddly.  

No, really, I am.  Some of the regulars here can attest to that!
Posted by: khan on Jan. 25 2011,09:36

Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,04:11)
Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 24 2011,21:43)
     
Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 24 2011,20:49)
The point of commenting here is that I would like to think that even if I were pro-choice I would readily admit that PZ's comments were repulsive.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


But, you clearly AREN'T pro-choice so projecting your own squik threshold on those who don't share your particular bias is rather pointless.

I happen to agree with PZ and you and other religiously motivated knicker twisters can get the vapours all you want. Just stay the fuck off of my fainting couch, you wankers.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You agree with him that pictures of mangled aborted fetuses inspire  no thoughts other than "it's just meat?".

For crying out loud, when I see a dead unborn bird (the egg fell) it makes me feel sad.  And that has nothing to do with religion.

Not you. Regardless of your stand on abortion, you can truly look at aborted fetuses with no metaphysical connection, even if only to the potential human whose parts are clearly recognizable, lying in a bloody heap? Even without ascribing any moral culpability to anyone, or even acknowledging that that there is any moral issue, even if the abortion was most straightforward inarguable case, (say, saving the life of a woman who was incestuously gang-raped) even then it would be the equivalent of looking at meat?  

Then, like PZ, you are also a cold-hearted scumbag with no empathy.

But none of that was my point, which was the speculation none of the other big-name atheists would be stupid enough to write what PZ wrote. They make names for themselves by their writing with style and class. PZ by does it by shocking.

Of course you didn't grasp what I was saying. All you did was the reflexive: religious person speaking--must disagree. Everything is good-guy/bad-guy.

So you know what? You can bite me, jackass.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


< http://www.abortionaccess.info/abortionpictures.htm >
Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on Jan. 25 2011,09:44

Quote (khan @ Jan. 25 2011,15:36)
Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,04:11)
Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 24 2011,21:43)
     
Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 24 2011,20:49)
The point of commenting here is that I would like to think that even if I were pro-choice I would readily admit that PZ's comments were repulsive.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


But, you clearly AREN'T pro-choice so projecting your own squik threshold on those who don't share your particular bias is rather pointless.

I happen to agree with PZ and you and other religiously motivated knicker twisters can get the vapours all you want. Just stay the fuck off of my fainting couch, you wankers.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You agree with him that pictures of mangled aborted fetuses inspire  no thoughts other than "it's just meat?".

For crying out loud, when I see a dead unborn bird (the egg fell) it makes me feel sad.  And that has nothing to do with religion.

Not you. Regardless of your stand on abortion, you can truly look at aborted fetuses with no metaphysical connection, even if only to the potential human whose parts are clearly recognizable, lying in a bloody heap? Even without ascribing any moral culpability to anyone, or even acknowledging that that there is any moral issue, even if the abortion was most straightforward inarguable case, (say, saving the life of a woman who was incestuously gang-raped) even then it would be the equivalent of looking at meat?  

Then, like PZ, you are also a cold-hearted scumbag with no empathy.

But none of that was my point, which was the speculation none of the other big-name atheists would be stupid enough to write what PZ wrote. They make names for themselves by their writing with style and class. PZ by does it by shocking.

Of course you didn't grasp what I was saying. All you did was the reflexive: religious person speaking--must disagree. Everything is good-guy/bad-guy.

So you know what? You can bite me, jackass.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


< http://www.abortionaccess.info/abortionpictures.htm >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


OMG Claudia!!! IT MAKES ME SOOO SAAAADD!!!

WHY, OH WHY DID YOU POST THAT HERE????????


Ahem, sorry 'bout that, please continue...
Posted by: fnxtr on Jan. 25 2011,09:57

Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 25 2011,06:59)
Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 25 2011,06:34)
The feeling I have is more of repulsion and disgust, but that's just because I don't really like seeing blood. But it will never be a feeling of sadness, that's for sure...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


This.  With strobe lights.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


In 1984 my s.o. at the time miscarried at about 5 months. I was nearby and saw the doctor carry out a pan with something red in it.  There was definitely an emotional factor.  Even though I knew I wasn't ready to be a dad, it was still sad.  

I know it's a different situation than choosing not to carry to term. Sometimes Bad Things happen, people make hard decisions, but I really don't think anyone just shrugs off these things.  Maybe they do.  Maybe one person's heartbreak is another person's equivalent of a stubbed toe.

For my part I'm pissed off at the deliberate attempt at emotional manipulation by people who put up anti-choice billboards.  I can see how one response would be to deny that any such emotion exists.
Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on Jan. 25 2011,10:06

Page turn bug. Again...
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 25 2011,10:18

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 25 2011,09:44)
 
Quote (khan @ Jan. 25 2011,15:36)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,04:11)
   
Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 24 2011,21:43)
         
Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 24 2011,20:49)
The point of commenting here is that I would like to think that even if I were pro-choice I would readily admit that PZ's comments were repulsive.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


But, you clearly AREN'T pro-choice so projecting your own squik threshold on those who don't share your particular bias is rather pointless.

I happen to agree with PZ and you and other religiously motivated knicker twisters can get the vapours all you want. Just stay the fuck off of my fainting couch, you wankers.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You agree with him that pictures of mangled aborted fetuses inspire  no thoughts other than "it's just meat?".

For crying out loud, when I see a dead unborn bird (the egg fell) it makes me feel sad.  And that has nothing to do with religion.

Not you. Regardless of your stand on abortion, you can truly look at aborted fetuses with no metaphysical connection, even if only to the potential human whose parts are clearly recognizable, lying in a bloody heap? Even without ascribing any moral culpability to anyone, or even acknowledging that that there is any moral issue, even if the abortion was most straightforward inarguable case, (say, saving the life of a woman who was incestuously gang-raped) even then it would be the equivalent of looking at meat?  

Then, like PZ, you are also a cold-hearted scumbag with no empathy.

But none of that was my point, which was the speculation none of the other big-name atheists would be stupid enough to write what PZ wrote. They make names for themselves by their writing with style and class. PZ by does it by shocking.

Of course you didn't grasp what I was saying. All you did was the reflexive: religious person speaking--must disagree. Everything is good-guy/bad-guy.

So you know what? You can bite me, jackass.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


< http://www.abortionaccess.info/abortionpictures.htm >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


OMG Claudia!!! IT MAKES ME SOOO SAAAADD!!!

WHY, OH WHY DID YOU POST THAT HERE????????


Ahem, sorry 'bout that, please continue...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I don't think we want to start < posting pictures....only a little over half of women have abortions before week 9. >
Posted by: dheddle on Jan. 25 2011,10:22

Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 25 2011,09:22)
   
Quote (Louis @ Jan. 25 2011,10:11)
     
Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 25 2011,14:58)
     
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,09:18)
<shrugs> What I said is true....unless you're subhuman.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Annnnnnnd she drops her kissy-poo, sweetness n' light, "can't we all just along" pretense and returns to her roots by pulling the (reverse) Nazi card.

See, to me and prolly most of the folks here at AtBC, you and Heddle are merely religiously deluded morons for a variety of reasons that have little if anything to do with your stance and/or feelings regarding abortion.  Both of you, however, classify anybody who doesn't have your opinion/response to abortion as less than human.

I find this very telling.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I don't put Heddle and FTK in the same box....as far as I put anyone in boxes at all.

Heddle is more than capable of reasoned and reasonable discourse about anything that does not impinge on his religion (which is of course NASCAR) and is probably worth Having a Beer With, no matter how much we disagree about some important things. Hell, if nothing else, at least he could teach me some physics. (Although I will say his current foray into demonising anyone who doesn't elevate his (or their own) visceral reactions to pictures of dismembered foetuses to "important and intellectually meaningful" makes me question this...and not for the first time)

FTK is....how shall I put this...not.

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Well, that's good to know.  I haven't seen enough of him, evidently, so his rather violent reaction to the fact that when I look at pictures of aborted fetuses (something I prefer not to do, just as I prefer not to watch video of eye surgery) and say, "Icky.  Blood and meat" as opposed to, "OH!  Poor little Bobby will NEVER ride a bike now" put him in FtK territory.  It would appear he's only a silly-billy like FtK on this particular subject.

So, I apologize to Heddle, although it's doubtful he'd accept since I'm an unfeeling monster or somesuch.  *sob*  But YOU love me, don't you, Louis?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Regarding "Both of you, however, classify anybody who doesn't have your opinion/response to abortion as less than human." I'll let FtK defend herself,  but that's not true for me. I have many dear friends who are pro-choice and have had abortions. I don't consider any of them monsters. If, however, they told me they had no visceral response to images of mangled, bloody fetuses--then I would reconsider.

As for the apology--not needed. I don't mind rough and tumble language--in fact it suits my personality and background much better that proper, civilized dialog. (It's Richard who has that kind of Formula-One/tea and crumpets mentality.)
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 25 2011,10:22

< fixed link >
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 25 2011,10:26

Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,10:22)
Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 25 2011,09:22)
     
Quote (Louis @ Jan. 25 2011,10:11)
     
Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 25 2011,14:58)
       
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,09:18)
<shrugs> What I said is true....unless you're subhuman.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Annnnnnnd she drops her kissy-poo, sweetness n' light, "can't we all just along" pretense and returns to her roots by pulling the (reverse) Nazi card.

See, to me and prolly most of the folks here at AtBC, you and Heddle are merely religiously deluded morons for a variety of reasons that have little if anything to do with your stance and/or feelings regarding abortion.  Both of you, however, classify anybody who doesn't have your opinion/response to abortion as less than human.

I find this very telling.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I don't put Heddle and FTK in the same box....as far as I put anyone in boxes at all.

Heddle is more than capable of reasoned and reasonable discourse about anything that does not impinge on his religion (which is of course NASCAR) and is probably worth Having a Beer With, no matter how much we disagree about some important things. Hell, if nothing else, at least he could teach me some physics. (Although I will say his current foray into demonising anyone who doesn't elevate his (or their own) visceral reactions to pictures of dismembered foetuses to "important and intellectually meaningful" makes me question this...and not for the first time)

FTK is....how shall I put this...not.

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Well, that's good to know.  I haven't seen enough of him, evidently, so his rather violent reaction to the fact that when I look at pictures of aborted fetuses (something I prefer not to do, just as I prefer not to watch video of eye surgery) and say, "Icky.  Blood and meat" as opposed to, "OH!  Poor little Bobby will NEVER ride a bike now" put him in FtK territory.  It would appear he's only a silly-billy like FtK on this particular subject.

So, I apologize to Heddle, although it's doubtful he'd accept since I'm an unfeeling monster or somesuch.  *sob*  But YOU love me, don't you, Louis?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Regarding "Both of you, however, classify anybody who doesn't have your opinion/response to abortion as less than human." I'll let FtK defend herself,  but that's not true for me. I have many dear friends who are pro-choice and have had abortions. I don't consider any of them monsters. If, however, they told me they had no visceral response to images of mangled, bloody fetuses--then I would reconsider.

As for the apology--not needed. I don't mind rough and tumble language--in fact it suits my personality and background much better that proper, civilized dialog. (It's Richard who has that kind of Formula-One/tea and crumpets mentality.)
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I agree dheddle....two of my very closest friends have both had abortions.   I certainly am not going to disolve our friendship because of it...sheesh.  We're talking about photos and having no empathy for them.  We all do...it's a human response.
Posted by: Wolfhound on Jan. 25 2011,10:26

Quote (fnxtr @ Jan. 25 2011,10:57)
In 1984 my s.o. at the time miscarried at about 5 months. I was nearby and saw the doctor carry out a pan with something red in it.  There was definitely an emotional factor.  Even though I knew I wasn't ready to be a dad, it was still sad.  

I know it's a different situation than choosing not to carry to term. Sometimes Bad Things happen, people make hard decisions, but I really don't think anyone just shrugs off these things.  Maybe they do.  Maybe one person's heartbreak is another person's equivalent of a stubbed toe.

For my part I'm pissed off at the deliberate attempt at emotional manipulation by people who put up anti-choice billboards.  I can see how one response would be to deny that any such emotion exists.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I see a big difference between a generic Pro-Forced-Maternity propaganda picket sign photo and your own personal experience.  And I'm so sorry you had to go through that.  :(

The whole billboard campaign (when I think of how many living, breathing, already born people those assholes could be helping with the money they spend on the adverts it makes my blood boil) is, of course, designed to make people think of their own child and say, "How could anybody kill Sally?"  Then send them money to "save Sally".  Of course, it ISN'T Sally, and once its born that's pretty obvious so to heck with the Not-Sally.

But, I digress.
Posted by: khan on Jan. 25 2011,10:28

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,11:18)
Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 25 2011,09:44)
 
Quote (khan @ Jan. 25 2011,15:36)
   
Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,04:11)
   
Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 24 2011,21:43)
         
Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 24 2011,20:49)
The point of commenting here is that I would like to think that even if I were pro-choice I would readily admit that PZ's comments were repulsive.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


But, you clearly AREN'T pro-choice so projecting your own squik threshold on those who don't share your particular bias is rather pointless.

I happen to agree with PZ and you and other religiously motivated knicker twisters can get the vapours all you want. Just stay the fuck off of my fainting couch, you wankers.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You agree with him that pictures of mangled aborted fetuses inspire  no thoughts other than "it's just meat?".

For crying out loud, when I see a dead unborn bird (the egg fell) it makes me feel sad.  And that has nothing to do with religion.

Not you. Regardless of your stand on abortion, you can truly look at aborted fetuses with no metaphysical connection, even if only to the potential human whose parts are clearly recognizable, lying in a bloody heap? Even without ascribing any moral culpability to anyone, or even acknowledging that that there is any moral issue, even if the abortion was most straightforward inarguable case, (say, saving the life of a woman who was incestuously gang-raped) even then it would be the equivalent of looking at meat?  

Then, like PZ, you are also a cold-hearted scumbag with no empathy.

But none of that was my point, which was the speculation none of the other big-name atheists would be stupid enough to write what PZ wrote. They make names for themselves by their writing with style and class. PZ by does it by shocking.

Of course you didn't grasp what I was saying. All you did was the reflexive: religious person speaking--must disagree. Everything is good-guy/bad-guy.

So you know what? You can bite me, jackass.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


< http://www.abortionaccess.info/abortionpictures.htm >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


OMG Claudia!!! IT MAKES ME SOOO SAAAADD!!!

WHY, OH WHY DID YOU POST THAT HERE????????


Ahem, sorry 'bout that, please continue...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I don't think we want to start < posting pictures....only a little over half of women have abortions before week 9. >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


< http://www.abortionaccess.info/abortionpictures.htm >

So tell me FTK, what should be my punishment?
Stoning?
Posted by: Louis on Jan. 25 2011,10:29

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,16:26)
I agree dheddle....two of my very closest friends have both had abortions.   I certainly am not going to disolve our friendship because of it...sheesh.  We're talking about photos and having no empathy for them.  We all do...it's a human response.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


And yet not moments ago people who did not share your precise response to a photo were sub-human Dahmer-esque monsters who only said these things to justify their lifestyle.

Does your lack of intellectual integrity ever bother you, FTK? It should you know.

Oh and I notice that no detail or evidence about these lifestyles and other slanders has come forth, so we'll assume, as always, you are merely making things up to be unpleasant.

Louis
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Jan. 25 2011,10:31

there's the old FtK

jesus if I come out and say "you fucks that look at an aborted fetus and DON'T see just a pile of meat are subhuman" will you take your tu quoques and run away?  

holy hell, I mean, Louis IS a big gay Nazi but it's not because of that
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 25 2011,10:36

Quote (Louis @ Jan. 25 2011,10:29)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,16:26)
I agree dheddle....two of my very closest friends have both had abortions.   I certainly am not going to disolve our friendship because of it...sheesh.  We're talking about photos and having no empathy for them.  We all do...it's a human response.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


And yet not moments ago people who did not share your precise response to a photo were sub-human Dahmer-esque monsters who only said these things to justify their lifestyle.

Does your lack of intellectual integrity ever bother you, FTK? It should you know.

Oh and I notice that no detail or evidence about these lifestyles and other slanders has come forth, so we'll assume, as always, you are merely making things up to be unpleasant.

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


How did I change my response?  I never once said that if you have an abortion you are subhuman....not once.  Pay attention.  I said, if you look at aborted fetuses and feel no empathy or revulsion...u are subhuman.  I'll certainly not change my stance on that.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 25 2011,10:40

Quote (khan @ Jan. 25 2011,10:28)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,11:18)
Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 25 2011,09:44)
   
Quote (khan @ Jan. 25 2011,15:36)
   
Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,04:11)
     
Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 24 2011,21:43)
           
Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 24 2011,20:49)
The point of commenting here is that I would like to think that even if I were pro-choice I would readily admit that PZ's comments were repulsive.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


But, you clearly AREN'T pro-choice so projecting your own squik threshold on those who don't share your particular bias is rather pointless.

I happen to agree with PZ and you and other religiously motivated knicker twisters can get the vapours all you want. Just stay the fuck off of my fainting couch, you wankers.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You agree with him that pictures of mangled aborted fetuses inspire  no thoughts other than "it's just meat?".

For crying out loud, when I see a dead unborn bird (the egg fell) it makes me feel sad.  And that has nothing to do with religion.

Not you. Regardless of your stand on abortion, you can truly look at aborted fetuses with no metaphysical connection, even if only to the potential human whose parts are clearly recognizable, lying in a bloody heap? Even without ascribing any moral culpability to anyone, or even acknowledging that that there is any moral issue, even if the abortion was most straightforward inarguable case, (say, saving the life of a woman who was incestuously gang-raped) even then it would be the equivalent of looking at meat?  

Then, like PZ, you are also a cold-hearted scumbag with no empathy.

But none of that was my point, which was the speculation none of the other big-name atheists would be stupid enough to write what PZ wrote. They make names for themselves by their writing with style and class. PZ by does it by shocking.

Of course you didn't grasp what I was saying. All you did was the reflexive: religious person speaking--must disagree. Everything is good-guy/bad-guy.

So you know what? You can bite me, jackass.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


< http://www.abortionaccess.info/abortionpictures.htm >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


OMG Claudia!!! IT MAKES ME SOOO SAAAADD!!!

WHY, OH WHY DID YOU POST THAT HERE????????


Ahem, sorry 'bout that, please continue...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I don't think we want to start < posting pictures....only a little over half of women have abortions before week 9. >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


< http://www.abortionaccess.info/abortionpictures.htm >

So tell me FTK, what should be my punishment?
Stoning?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Khan, I believe I've been ~quite~ consistent throughout this entire discussion.  There should be no punishment, imho.
Posted by: khan on Jan. 25 2011,10:43

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,11:36)
Quote (Louis @ Jan. 25 2011,10:29)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,16:26)
I agree dheddle....two of my very closest friends have both had abortions.   I certainly am not going to disolve our friendship because of it...sheesh.  We're talking about photos and having no empathy for them.  We all do...it's a human response.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


And yet not moments ago people who did not share your precise response to a photo were sub-human Dahmer-esque monsters who only said these things to justify their lifestyle.

Does your lack of intellectual integrity ever bother you, FTK? It should you know.

Oh and I notice that no detail or evidence about these lifestyles and other slanders has come forth, so we'll assume, as always, you are merely making things up to be unpleasant.

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


How did I change my response?  I never once said that if you have an abortion you are subhuman....not once.  Pay attention.  I said, if you look at aborted fetuses and feel no empathy or revulsion...u are subhuman.  I'll certainly not change my stance on that.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I still have my yanked wisdom teeth. Like the abortion the only reaction was relief that the source of pain was gone.
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Jan. 25 2011,10:43

no punishment

BUT

you are not human!
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Jan. 25 2011,10:44

so if you have an abortion, FtK don't give a fuck

but if you have an abortion and observe some part of the procedure, you are subhuman.  nice.
Posted by: khan on Jan. 25 2011,10:45

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Jan. 25 2011,11:44)
so if you have an abortion, FtK don't give a fuck

but if you have an abortion and observe some part of the procedure, you are subhuman.  nice.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Shit, I asked to see the ultrasound.
Posted by: Louis on Jan. 25 2011,10:47

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,16:36)
Quote (Louis @ Jan. 25 2011,10:29)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,16:26)
I agree dheddle....two of my very closest friends have both had abortions.   I certainly am not going to disolve our friendship because of it...sheesh.  We're talking about photos and having no empathy for them.  We all do...it's a human response.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


And yet not moments ago people who did not share your precise response to a photo were sub-human Dahmer-esque monsters who only said these things to justify their lifestyle.

Does your lack of intellectual integrity ever bother you, FTK? It should you know.

Oh and I notice that no detail or evidence about these lifestyles and other slanders has come forth, so we'll assume, as always, you are merely making things up to be unpleasant.

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


How did I change my response?  I never once said that if you have an abortion you are subhuman....not once.  Pay attention.  I said, if you look at aborted fetuses and feel no empathy or revulsion...u are subhuman.  I'll certainly not change my stance on that.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Read what I wrote FTK.

You've made an error.

Louis
Posted by: MadPanda, FCD on Jan. 25 2011,10:50

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Jan. 25 2011,10:44)
so if you have an abortion, FtK don't give a fuck

but if you have an abortion and observe some part of the procedure, you are subhuman.  nice.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


FTK can't help it.  She's fundamentally immoral, pretending to be good (it's the willingness to write people off as subhuman that does it).

Happens all the time.


The MadPanda, FCD
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 25 2011,10:53

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Jan. 25 2011,10:44)
so if you have an abortion, FtK don't give a fuck

but if you have an abortion and observe some part of the procedure, you are subhuman.  nice.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


ummm....I do give a fuck.  Obviously, I have strong feelings about the lives of children.  But, getting pregnant and/or having an abortion is such an insanely emotional and intense moment in a woman's life that I cannot and will not sit back and judge them individually.

That does not change the fact that when people look at mangled human fetuses of children, they *should* feel empathy or revulsion rather than feeling absolutely nothing at all.
Posted by: oldmanintheskydidntdoit on Jan. 25 2011,10:54

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,10:36)
How did I change my response?  I never once said that if you have an abortion you are subhuman....not once.  Pay attention.  I said, if you look at aborted fetuses and feel no empathy or revulsion...u are subhuman.  I'll certainly not change my stance on that.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


FFS. This is classic FTK people.
   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I said, if you look at aborted fetuses and feel no empathy or revulsion...u are subhuman.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


And I said, dumbass, that if you spend a lifetime looking at such and stop feeling revulsion, are you then subhuman?
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 25 2011,10:55

Quote (Louis @ Jan. 25 2011,10:47)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,16:36)
 
Quote (Louis @ Jan. 25 2011,10:29)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,16:26)
I agree dheddle....two of my very closest friends have both had abortions.   I certainly am not going to disolve our friendship because of it...sheesh.  We're talking about photos and having no empathy for them.  We all do...it's a human response.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


And yet not moments ago people who did not share your precise response to a photo were sub-human Dahmer-esque monsters who only said these things to justify their lifestyle.

Does your lack of intellectual integrity ever bother you, FTK? It should you know.

Oh and I notice that no detail or evidence about these lifestyles and other slanders has come forth, so we'll assume, as always, you are merely making things up to be unpleasant.

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


How did I change my response?  I never once said that if you have an abortion you are subhuman....not once.  Pay attention.  I said, if you look at aborted fetuses and feel no empathy or revulsion...u are subhuman.  I'll certainly not change my stance on that.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Read what I wrote FTK.

You've made an error.

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


What the hell does the comment about "intellectual integrity" mean then??
Posted by: oldmanintheskydidntdoit on Jan. 25 2011,10:56

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,10:53)
That does not change the fact that when people look at mangled human fetuses of children, they *should* feel empathy or revulsion rather than feeling absolutely nothing at all.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


And if you've spent a lifetime looking at such and don't feel as you expect, then you are subhuman right?

It's no wonder that religion caused the death of so many people.

Don't feel or believe a certain way? You are not human and can be treated as a animal.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 25 2011,10:58

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Jan. 25 2011,10:54)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,10:36)
How did I change my response?  I never once said that if you have an abortion you are subhuman....not once.  Pay attention.  I said, if you look at aborted fetuses and feel no empathy or revulsion...u are subhuman.  I'll certainly not change my stance on that.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


FFS. This is classic FTK people.
   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I said, if you look at aborted fetuses and feel no empathy or revulsion...u are subhuman.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


And I said, dumbass, that if you spend a lifetime looking at such and stop feeling revulsion, are you then subhuman?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Desensitizing yourself is not relevant to this coversation.
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Jan. 25 2011,10:58

Quote (khan @ Jan. 25 2011,11:45)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Jan. 25 2011,11:44)
so if you have an abortion, FtK don't give a fuck

but if you have an abortion and observe some part of the procedure, you are subhuman.  nice.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Shit, I asked to see the ultrasound.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


YOU MONSTER
Posted by: oldmanintheskydidntdoit on Jan. 25 2011,10:58

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,10:55)
What the hell does the comment about "intellectual integrity" mean then??
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


…embrace a moral point of view that urges them to be conceptually clear, logically consistent, apprised of relevant empirical evidence, and careful about acknowledging as well as weighing relevant moral considerations. Persons of integrity impose these restrictions on themselves since they are concerned, not simply with taking any moral position, but with pursuing a commitment to do what is best. (Halfon 1989, p. 37.)

< http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/integrity/#4 >
Posted by: Louis on Jan. 25 2011,10:58

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,16:55)
Quote (Louis @ Jan. 25 2011,10:47)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,16:36)
 
Quote (Louis @ Jan. 25 2011,10:29)
   
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,16:26)
I agree dheddle....two of my very closest friends have both had abortions.   I certainly am not going to disolve our friendship because of it...sheesh.  We're talking about photos and having no empathy for them.  We all do...it's a human response.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


And yet not moments ago people who did not share your precise response to a photo were sub-human Dahmer-esque monsters who only said these things to justify their lifestyle.

Does your lack of intellectual integrity ever bother you, FTK? It should you know.

Oh and I notice that no detail or evidence about these lifestyles and other slanders has come forth, so we'll assume, as always, you are merely making things up to be unpleasant.

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


How did I change my response?  I never once said that if you have an abortion you are subhuman....not once.  Pay attention.  I said, if you look at aborted fetuses and feel no empathy or revulsion...u are subhuman.  I'll certainly not change my stance on that.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Read what I wrote FTK.

You've made an error.

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


What the hell does the comment about "intellectual integrity" mean then??
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


These "lifestyles" to which people who don't share your precise response to a photo, what are they? How do you know what you claim to know? Why is someone's emotional response to a photo predicated on some claimed lifestyle that person has?

You're making claims and judgements you have no basis for, do you think that might have some bearing on your intellectual integrity?

Louis
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 25 2011,10:59

Quote (MadPanda, FCD @ Jan. 25 2011,10:50)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Jan. 25 2011,10:44)
so if you have an abortion, FtK don't give a fuck

but if you have an abortion and observe some part of the procedure, you are subhuman.  nice.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


FTK can't help it.  She's fundamentally immoral, pretending to be good (it's the willingness to write people off as subhuman that does it).

Happens all the time.


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You'll have to point out where I've been inconsistent.
Posted by: Louis on Jan. 25 2011,11:02

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,16:58)
Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Jan. 25 2011,10:54)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,10:36)
How did I change my response?  I never once said that if you have an abortion you are subhuman....not once.  Pay attention.  I said, if you look at aborted fetuses and feel no empathy or revulsion...u are subhuman.  I'll certainly not change my stance on that.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


FFS. This is classic FTK people.
     

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I said, if you look at aborted fetuses and feel no empathy or revulsion...u are subhuman.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


And I said, dumbass, that if you spend a lifetime looking at such and stop feeling revulsion, are you then subhuman?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Desensitizing yourself is not relevant to this coversation.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Oh but it is.

You and Heddle have made the claim that people who do not share your specific emotional, visceral reaction to a photo of an aborted foetus are (depending on who said precisely what) variously not normal, lacking empathy, sub human, or like a specific serial killer.

How someone might have become desensitised to such images is PRECISELY relevant, unless you wish to define all such possible desensitisation as rendering one in some fashion sub-human etc.

Louis
Posted by: Louis on Jan. 25 2011,11:03

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Jan. 25 2011,16:58)
Quote (khan @ Jan. 25 2011,11:45)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Jan. 25 2011,11:44)
so if you have an abortion, FtK don't give a fuck

but if you have an abortion and observe some part of the procedure, you are subhuman.  nice.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Shit, I asked to see the ultrasound.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


YOU MONSTER
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


My wife and I even knew the sex of out baby before it was born. People said "don't you want a surprise", I replied that it wasn't much of a surprise now was it? I mean it's going to be a boy or a girl. Puppies would be a surprise!

Louis
Posted by: MadPanda, FCD on Jan. 25 2011,11:06

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,10:59)
Quote (MadPanda @ FCD,Jan. 25 2011,10:50)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Jan. 25 2011,10:44)
so if you have an abortion, FtK don't give a fuck

but if you have an abortion and observe some part of the procedure, you are subhuman.  nice.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


FTK can't help it.  She's fundamentally immoral, pretending to be good (it's the willingness to write people off as subhuman that does it).

Happens all the time.


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You'll have to point out where I've been inconsistent.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Reading comprehension failure.

I did not accuse you of being inconsistent (although in many ways you are, and can't help it, given the nature of your delusions).  I said you are fundamentally immoral.

You are inconsistent, however, in that on the one hand you can't understand why this stuff is so divisive and on the other hand you make sweeping generalizations that dehumanize others without regard to circumstance.  That's pretty silly.  Of course, given the nature of your delusions, you can't help that, either.


The MadPanda, FCD
Posted by: khan on Jan. 25 2011,11:06

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Jan. 25 2011,11:58)
Quote (khan @ Jan. 25 2011,11:45)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Jan. 25 2011,11:44)
so if you have an abortion, FtK don't give a fuck

but if you have an abortion and observe some part of the procedure, you are subhuman.  nice.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Shit, I asked to see the ultrasound.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


YOU MONSTER
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Yes. Also asked to the see the xrays of my fucked up wrist & back & of cat with ruptured diaphragm & whole head xray by dentist.

And to upset other folks: I have participated in chicken & turkey slaughtering.

Life is messy.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 25 2011,11:08

Quote (fnxtr @ Jan. 25 2011,09:57)
Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 25 2011,06:59)
Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 25 2011,06:34)
The feeling I have is more of repulsion and disgust, but that's just because I don't really like seeing blood. But it will never be a feeling of sadness, that's for sure...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


This.  With strobe lights.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


In 1984 my s.o. at the time miscarried at about 5 months. I was nearby and saw the doctor carry out a pan with something red in it.  There was definitely an emotional factor.  Even though I knew I wasn't ready to be a dad, it was still sad.  

I know it's a different situation than choosing not to carry to term. Sometimes Bad Things happen, people make hard decisions, but I really don't think anyone just shrugs off these things.  Maybe they do.  Maybe one person's heartbreak is another person's equivalent of a stubbed toe.

For my part I'm pissed off at the deliberate attempt at emotional manipulation by people who put up anti-choice billboards.  I can see how one response would be to deny that any such emotion exists.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I missed this....this is an honest response.
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Jan. 25 2011,11:09

honest, but clearly fnxtr is just like Jeffrey Dahmer.  Why, I bet he regularly practices rape, torture, dismemberment, necrophilia and cannibalism.  You can't prove he doesn't.  I'm just saying.  Where have I been inconsistent.  It's just his lifestyle.  <shrug> Look hon, a heron!


edited to name the appropriate hero
Posted by: oldmanintheskydidntdoit on Jan. 25 2011,11:11

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,10:58)
 
Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Jan. 25 2011,10:54)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,10:36)
How did I change my response?  I never once said that if you have an abortion you are subhuman....not once.  Pay attention.  I said, if you look at aborted fetuses and feel no empathy or revulsion...u are subhuman.  I'll certainly not change my stance on that.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


FFS. This is classic FTK people.
       

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I said, if you look at aborted fetuses and feel no empathy or revulsion...u are subhuman.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


And I said, dumbass, that if you spend a lifetime looking at such and stop feeling revulsion, are you then subhuman?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Desensitizing yourself is not relevant to this coversation.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Oh, my dear, but it is.

Perhaps the first day that PZ saw such an image he reacted in the way you would want him to. I don't know one way or the other.

But after a lifetime of cutting up biological entities, just meat.

Subhuman? I don't think so.

People who hold up pictures of abortions in front of family planning clinics?

Subhuman. Without a doubt.
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Jan. 25 2011,11:14

Quote (khan @ Jan. 25 2011,12:06)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Jan. 25 2011,11:58)
Quote (khan @ Jan. 25 2011,11:45)
 
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Jan. 25 2011,11:44)
so if you have an abortion, FtK don't give a fuck

but if you have an abortion and observe some part of the procedure, you are subhuman.  nice.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Shit, I asked to see the ultrasound.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


YOU MONSTER
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Yes. Also asked to the see the xrays of my fucked up wrist & back & of cat with ruptured diaphragm & whole head xray by dentist.

And to upset other folks: I have participated in chicken & turkey slaughtering.

Life is messy.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


actually it's the part about cats that is the most dehumanizing.  the little bastards
Posted by: khan on Jan. 25 2011,11:16

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Jan. 25 2011,12:11)
Oh, my dear, but it is.

Perhaps the first day that PZ saw such an image he reacted in the way you would want him to. I don't know one way or the other.

But after a lifetime of cutting up biological entities, just meat.

Subhuman? I don't think so.

People who hold up pictures of abortions in front of family planning clinics?

Subhuman. Without a doubt.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Also note that the pictures that the forced birthers hold up are lies.
They show 6 month miscarriages as 2 month abortions.
Nothing lies like a fundie.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 25 2011,11:18

Quote (Louis @ Jan. 25 2011,10:58)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,16:55)
Quote (Louis @ Jan. 25 2011,10:47)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,16:36)
   
Quote (Louis @ Jan. 25 2011,10:29)
   
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,16:26)
I agree dheddle....two of my very closest friends have both had abortions.   I certainly am not going to disolve our friendship because of it...sheesh.  We're talking about photos and having no empathy for them.  We all do...it's a human response.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


And yet not moments ago people who did not share your precise response to a photo were sub-human Dahmer-esque monsters who only said these things to justify their lifestyle.

Does your lack of intellectual integrity ever bother you, FTK? It should you know.

Oh and I notice that no detail or evidence about these lifestyles and other slanders has come forth, so we'll assume, as always, you are merely making things up to be unpleasant.

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


How did I change my response?  I never once said that if you have an abortion you are subhuman....not once.  Pay attention.  I said, if you look at aborted fetuses and feel no empathy or revulsion...u are subhuman.  I'll certainly not change my stance on that.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Read what I wrote FTK.

You've made an error.

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


What the hell does the comment about "intellectual integrity" mean then??
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


These "lifestyles" to which people who don't share your precise response to a photo, what are they? How do you know what you claim to know? Why is someone's emotional response to a photo predicated on some claimed lifestyle that person has?

You're making claims and judgements you have no basis for, do you think that might have some bearing on your intellectual integrity?

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Same lifestyle as I've lived from time to time.  You play, you pay.  I'm not be condescending.  I could bring up my past payments, but I don't particularly care to see this thread turn into a Jerry Springer circus.

I'm just stating the obvious...chill brother.
Posted by: khan on Jan. 25 2011,11:25

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,12:18)
Same lifestyle as I've lived from time to time.  You play, you pay.  I'm not be condescending.  I could bring up my past payments, but I don't particularly care to see this thread turn into a Jerry Springer circus.

I'm just stating the obvious...chill brother.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So what is the punishment for me & the doctor & the kind folks at the clinic?
Posted by: MadPanda, FCD on Jan. 25 2011,11:27

Quote (khan @ Jan. 25 2011,11:25)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,12:18)
Same lifestyle as I've lived from time to time.  You play, you pay.  I'm not be condescending.  I could bring up my past payments, but I don't particularly care to see this thread turn into a Jerry Springer circus.

I'm just stating the obvious...chill brother.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So what is the punishment for me & the doctor & the kind folks at the clinic?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


She keeps repeating that she doesn't think their ought to be any legal punishment, all the while no doubt harboring thoughts that these sinners will be roasting in hell for all eternity...

Which is a funny way of saying that there ought not be any punishment, but there you go.  Her imaginary friend is a bit unpleasant that way.


The MadPanda, FCD
Posted by: oldmanintheskydidntdoit on Jan. 25 2011,11:28

Quote (khan @ Jan. 25 2011,11:25)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,12:18)
Same lifestyle as I've lived from time to time.  You play, you pay.  I'm not be condescending.  I could bring up my past payments, but I don't particularly care to see this thread turn into a Jerry Springer circus.

I'm just stating the obvious...chill brother.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So what is the punishment for me & the doctor & the kind folks at the clinic?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Burn in hell forever, sinner!

Hey, FTK, do women who have abortions go to hell?

:p

Joke, joke.....

But answer if you like...
Posted by: Louis on Jan. 25 2011,11:33

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,17:18)


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
These "lifestyles" to which people who don't share your precise response to a photo, what are they? How do you know what you claim to know? Why is someone's emotional response to a photo predicated on some claimed lifestyle that person has?

You're making claims and judgements you have no basis for, do you think that might have some bearing on your intellectual integrity?

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Same lifestyle as I've lived from time to time.  You play, you pay.  I'm not be condescending.  I could bring up my past payments, but I don't particularly care to see this thread turn into a Jerry Springer circus.

I'm just stating the obvious...chill brother.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Does anything you've said even remotely resemble details? No.

Does anything you've said even remotely resemble an argument? No.

I'm not asking for your personal details, FTK, I profoundly do not care about them.

You made a very specific claim which runs thus:

"People who do not share my emotional and visceral reaction to a photo of an aborted foetus are Dahmeresque sub-humans who do not share my emotional and visceral reaction because of their lifestyle".

This is not obvious, it's not even true as it happens, and this brother is so chilled you could keep a side of meat in him for a month.

You make a claim, you support a claim. Period. End of story, The fat lady she singeth and cetera.

If you cannot support the claim, say so and retract it. No biggie.

Louis
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Jan. 25 2011,11:35



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
this brother is so chilled you could keep a side of meat in him for a month.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



yes, onlookers, that is solicitation.  AND what passes for "foreplay" on louis' side of the pond
Posted by: khan on Jan. 25 2011,11:38

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Jan. 25 2011,12:28)
Quote (khan @ Jan. 25 2011,11:25)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,12:18)
Same lifestyle as I've lived from time to time.  You play, you pay.  I'm not be condescending.  I could bring up my past payments, but I don't particularly care to see this thread turn into a Jerry Springer circus.

I'm just stating the obvious...chill brother.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So what is the punishment for me & the doctor & the kind folks at the clinic?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Burn in hell forever, sinner!

Hey, FTK, do women who have abortions go to hell?

:p

Joke, joke.....

But answer if you like...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Maybe we should all be in prison for ~20 years; then who is going to make your fucking sandwiches?
Posted by: Louis on Jan. 25 2011,11:45

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,17:08)
Quote (fnxtr @ Jan. 25 2011,09:57)
Quote (Wolfhound @ Jan. 25 2011,06:59)
 
Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 25 2011,06:34)
The feeling I have is more of repulsion and disgust, but that's just because I don't really like seeing blood. But it will never be a feeling of sadness, that's for sure...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


This.  With strobe lights.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


In 1984 my s.o. at the time miscarried at about 5 months. I was nearby and saw the doctor carry out a pan with something red in it.  There was definitely an emotional factor.  Even though I knew I wasn't ready to be a dad, it was still sad.  

I know it's a different situation than choosing not to carry to term. Sometimes Bad Things happen, people make hard decisions, but I really don't think anyone just shrugs off these things.  Maybe they do.  Maybe one person's heartbreak is another person's equivalent of a stubbed toe.

For my part I'm pissed off at the deliberate attempt at emotional manipulation by people who put up anti-choice billboards.  I can see how one response would be to deny that any such emotion exists.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I missed this....this is an honest response.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


And others are not? Interesting.

Louis
Posted by: Louis on Jan. 25 2011,11:46

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Jan. 25 2011,17:35)


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
this brother is so chilled you could keep a side of meat in him for a month.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



yes, onlookers, that is solicitation.  AND what passes for "foreplay" on louis' side of the pond
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Don't be silly. Foreplay is turning the lights off and saying "Brace yerself, love".

Louis
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 25 2011,11:55

Quote (khan @ Jan. 25 2011,11:25)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,12:18)
Same lifestyle as I've lived from time to time.  You play, you pay.  I'm not be condescending.  I could bring up my past payments, but I don't particularly care to see this thread turn into a Jerry Springer circus.

I'm just stating the obvious...chill brother.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So what is the punishment for me & the doctor & the kind folks at the clinic?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You all live with it.  Sounds like you're doing well....I'm honestly glad.  Not everyone is as tough as you.  But, Ima go out on a limb here and say that when you first glanced at that little pink line on that pregnancy stick, you felt hollow for a second...or at least some type of remorseful feeling (perhaps fleeting for you in particular).  

Whatever you did after that to carry forward is your deal.  You, obviously, managed fine.

I've carried my feelings of regret for some things that have occurred in my life, but I learned A LOT from them, and I'm honestly not sure that I'd have been better off without having them.
Posted by: dheddle on Jan. 25 2011,12:00

Off Topic, and mostly for my pal Richard Hughes:

my son (who is autistic) < on youtube. >

You can bump this proud daddy to the BW, but he will not be deterred!
Posted by: khan on Jan. 25 2011,12:05

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,12:55)
Quote (khan @ Jan. 25 2011,11:25)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,12:18)
Same lifestyle as I've lived from time to time.  You play, you pay.  I'm not be condescending.  I could bring up my past payments, but I don't particularly care to see this thread turn into a Jerry Springer circus.

I'm just stating the obvious...chill brother.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So what is the punishment for me & the doctor & the kind folks at the clinic?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You all live with it.  Sounds like you're doing well....I'm honestly glad.  Not everyone is as tough as you.  But, Ima go out on a limb here and say that when you first glanced at that little pink line on that pregnancy stick, you felt hollow for a second...or at least some type of remorseful feeling (perhaps fleeting for you in particular).  

Whatever you did after that to carry forward is your deal.  You, obviously, managed fine.

I've carried my feelings of regret for some things that have occurred in my life, but I learned A LOT from them, and I'm honestly not sure that I'd have been better off without having them.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Listen ms little pearl cluther:
My first thought was: shit
Fortunately for me I had no problem with the money
Anything else I would say would probably get deleted.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 25 2011,12:05

Quote (MadPanda, FCD @ Jan. 25 2011,11:27)
Quote (khan @ Jan. 25 2011,11:25)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,12:18)
Same lifestyle as I've lived from time to time.  You play, you pay.  I'm not be condescending.  I could bring up my past payments, but I don't particularly care to see this thread turn into a Jerry Springer circus.

I'm just stating the obvious...chill brother.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So what is the punishment for me & the doctor & the kind folks at the clinic?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


She keeps repeating that she doesn't think their ought to be any legal punishment, all the while no doubt harboring thoughts that these sinners will be roasting in hell for all eternity...

Which is a funny way of saying that there ought not be any punishment, but there you go.  Her imaginary friend is a bit unpleasant that way.


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Hmmm...I always find it interesting to watch how people picture me.  It's funny....I don't harbor any feelings of hate for anyone.  What is the point?  I found out loooongggg ago that hate sucks...make ya feel horrible 24/7.  Life's too short.  

What kind of legal punishment could possibly be given?   I don't think I've ever heard pro-choice people offering possible ideas for punishing people legally who have had an abortion.  Honestly, it's never crossed my mind.  From where I stand, I've always wanted to see the numbers of abortions decrease by millions through education, counseling, etc..  I've never once considered someone who had an abortion evil.  Gawd...I'm a woman...I know full well what goes through one's mind when you become pregnant.  Come on....chill a little.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 25 2011,12:08

Quote (khan @ Jan. 25 2011,12:05)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,12:55)
Quote (khan @ Jan. 25 2011,11:25)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,12:18)
Same lifestyle as I've lived from time to time.  You play, you pay.  I'm not be condescending.  I could bring up my past payments, but I don't particularly care to see this thread turn into a Jerry Springer circus.

I'm just stating the obvious...chill brother.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So what is the punishment for me & the doctor & the kind folks at the clinic?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You all live with it.  Sounds like you're doing well....I'm honestly glad.  Not everyone is as tough as you.  But, Ima go out on a limb here and say that when you first glanced at that little pink line on that pregnancy stick, you felt hollow for a second...or at least some type of remorseful feeling (perhaps fleeting for you in particular).  

Whatever you did after that to carry forward is your deal.  You, obviously, managed fine.

I've carried my feelings of regret for some things that have occurred in my life, but I learned A LOT from them, and I'm honestly not sure that I'd have been better off without having them.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Listen ms little pearl cluther:
My first thought was: shit
Fortunately for me I had no problem with the money
Anything else I would say would probably get deleted.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Like I said...it's your deal.  Your choice....ur life.  Don't know why you're even arguing about it.  Worked out fine for.  I'm probably wrong and you felt nothing but pissed off.  Great...makes it all the easier.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 25 2011,12:10

Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,12:00)
Off Topic, and mostly for my pal Richard Hughes:

my son (who is autistic) < on youtube. >

You can bump this proud daddy to the BW, but he will not be deterred!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


WOW.  How old is he?  He play by ear..or is that memorized?
Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on Jan. 25 2011,12:15

Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,18:00)
Off Topic, and mostly for my pal Richard Hughes:

my son (who is autistic) < on youtube. >

You can bump this proud daddy to the BW, but he will not be deterred!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I don't really see what this has to do with the current discussion, but I will say this:

You're son is a Master! To have his left hand skills I would give...well... my right hand!

Thanks a thousand for the link, I'll watch it again a few times in absolute awe...
Posted by: MadPanda, FCD on Jan. 25 2011,12:17

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,12:05)
Hmmm...I always find it interesting to watch how people picture me.  It's funny....I don't harbor any feelings of hate for anyone.  What is the point?  I found out loooongggg ago that hate sucks...make ya feel horrible 24/7.  Life's too short.  

What kind of legal punishment could possibly be given?   I don't think I've ever heard pro-choice people offering possible ideas for punishing people legally who have had an abortion.  Honestly, it's never crossed my mind.  From where I stand, I've always wanted to see the numbers of abortions decrease by millions through education, counseling, etc..  I've never once considered someone who had an abortion evil.  Gawd...I'm a woman...I know full well what goes through one's mind when you become pregnant.  Come on....chill a little.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Pull ye the other one: you pass judgment at one remove and pretend that you don't, because it's all about what your imaginary friend wants.

You judge those who do not behave as you do, be they promiscuous, premarital, or gay...but you hide it behind nice language and friendly concern.  It's all about what your imaginary friend tells you is right.  It's all about the magic book with the magic words and unquestionable instructions.

Your very belief system entails consigning people with whom you do not agree to everlasting punishment on the basis of what a figment of your imagination is said to have commanded.  It certainly allows you to write others off as subhuman when it's convenient!  Or do you discard the doctrine of hell when it proves to be an embarrassment?  Whoops!  There goes the reason for obeying the Sky Daddy!

And yet, you think I am hateful because I point these uncomfortable truths out to you.  Funny, that.  Project much?


The MadPanda, FCD
Posted by: Louis on Jan. 25 2011,12:17

Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,18:00)
Off Topic, and mostly for my pal Richard Hughes:

my son (who is autistic) < on youtube. >

You can bump this proud daddy to the BW, but he will not be deterred!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Way to go Heddle Jr! Talented lad (autistic or not). And therefore I feel a partial credit and a parenting award must be given to the Heddle Srs! ;-)

You should be very justifiably proud.

I shall have to beat my boy more, he's 19 months and barely knows any quantum mechanics and he cannot even write a symphony yet.*

Louis

*I'm not serious. Of course he can write a symphony! (I'm not serious about the beating of course...is that Child Services at the door?)
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 25 2011,12:17

Quote (Louis @ Jan. 25 2011,11:33)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,17:18)


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
These "lifestyles" to which people who don't share your precise response to a photo, what are they? How do you know what you claim to know? Why is someone's emotional response to a photo predicated on some claimed lifestyle that person has?

You're making claims and judgements you have no basis for, do you think that might have some bearing on your intellectual integrity?

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Same lifestyle as I've lived from time to time.  You play, you pay.  I'm not be condescending.  I could bring up my past payments, but I don't particularly care to see this thread turn into a Jerry Springer circus.

I'm just stating the obvious...chill brother.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Does anything you've said even remotely resemble details? No.

Does anything you've said even remotely resemble an argument? No.

I'm not asking for your personal details, FTK, I profoundly do not care about them.

You made a very specific claim which runs thus:

"People who do not share my emotional and visceral reaction to a photo of an aborted foetus are Dahmeresque sub-humans who do not share my emotional and visceral reaction because of their lifestyle".

This is not obvious, it's not even true as it happens, and this brother is so chilled you could keep a side of meat in him for a month.

You make a claim, you support a claim. Period. End of story, The fat lady she singeth and cetera.

If you cannot support the claim, say so and retract it. No biggie.

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Again, stating the obvious.....no scientific graphs and charts needed.

Let's say for a moment, that we all lived the life....one man/one woman forever Amen.

That imediately does away with virtually all std's and the vast, vast majority of all unwanted pregnancies.  Not all....but most.  And, we'd have those little babies anyway and work things out.  

Lifestyle....period.
Posted by: MadPanda, FCD on Jan. 25 2011,12:26

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,12:17)
Let's say for a moment, that we all lived the life....one man/one woman forever Amen.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Let's suppose the moon is made of green cheese, while we're at it.

Let's just write off anyone who just happens to be different, say, because they're genetically inclined to prefer their own gender.  Or both.  (Another entry in the file of evidence that your imaginary friend is an asshole, by the way, is the growing documentation of same-sex attraction in other species.  Do pay attention!)

How about you go play in the World of Reality for a while?

By your fruits we know you, and it isn't a pretty picture.


The MadPanda, FCD
Posted by: dheddle on Jan. 25 2011,12:29

Thanks y'all for stroking my parent-ego. To answer one question--he has that pieced memorized, but he does not play by ear, he reads music.
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Jan. 25 2011,12:30

let's say for a moment that we all shit and fell back in it
Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on Jan. 25 2011,12:31



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Let's say for a moment, that we all lived the life....one man/one woman forever Amen.

That imediately does away with virtually all std's and the vast, vast majority of all unwanted pregnancies.  Not all....but most.  And, we'd have those little babies anyway and work things out.  

Lifestyle....period.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



And a big (huge) part of the population would either cheat on their spouse or commit suicide out of depression and/or repressed sexual needs.

FTK, YOUR view is not EVERYONE'S view. We have agreed on that. If you think the world would be wonderful and everyone would be pissing brandy and crapping plum-pudding if they behaved the way you think they should, that's your own problem, not ours. And it's totaly human.

I would have a miserable life if I didn't have the sexual openness I have. Don't get me wrong, I have a steady (and lovely, in case she reads this) girlfriend, and I don't ever cheat on her. But I also have had periods in my life when I was single and just wanted to have fun. Always protected, of course, because I'm not a dumbass and I got educated about these things.

In fact, I think my last sentence alone would suffice to burry your argument about STDs and unwanted pregnancy. So just keep that last one in mind, since it meets your own (public) wishes...
Posted by: khan on Jan. 25 2011,12:32

Quote (Louis @ Jan. 25 2011,13:17)
You should be very justifiably proud.

I shall have to beat my boy more, he's 19 months and barely knows any quantum mechanics and he cannot even write a symphony yet.*

Louis

*I'm not serious. Of course he can write a symphony! (I'm not serious about the beating of course...is that Child Services at the door?)
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I'm 60, I've been married & divorced; I've had an abortion; I've had wisdom teeth yanked; I've had sex outside of marriage.
I've also eaten shrimp & clams; & have worn clothes of mixed fabrics; & interplanted crops.

Which of these behaviors are subject to stoning or shunning?
Posted by: JohnW on Jan. 25 2011,12:33

This is a genuine, snark-free question for FTK and/or anyone else who can remember more bible than me...

What, specifically, does the bible say about abortion, one way or the other?
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 25 2011,12:34

Quote (MadPanda, FCD @ Jan. 25 2011,12:17)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,12:05)
Hmmm...I always find it interesting to watch how people picture me.  It's funny....I don't harbor any feelings of hate for anyone.  What is the point?  I found out loooongggg ago that hate sucks...make ya feel horrible 24/7.  Life's too short.  

What kind of legal punishment could possibly be given?   I don't think I've ever heard pro-choice people offering possible ideas for punishing people legally who have had an abortion.  Honestly, it's never crossed my mind.  From where I stand, I've always wanted to see the numbers of abortions decrease by millions through education, counseling, etc..  I've never once considered someone who had an abortion evil.  Gawd...I'm a woman...I know full well what goes through one's mind when you become pregnant.  Come on....chill a little.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Pull ye the other one: you pass judgment at one remove and pretend that you don't, because it's all about what your imaginary friend wants.

You judge those who do not behave as you do, be they promiscuous, premarital, or gay...but you hide it behind nice language and friendly concern.  It's all about what your imaginary friend tells you is right.  It's all about the magic book with the magic words and unquestionable instructions.

Your very belief system entails consigning people with whom you do not agree to everlasting punishment on the basis of what a figment of your imagination is said to have commanded.  It certainly allows you to write others off as subhuman when it's convenient!  Or do you discard the doctrine of hell when it proves to be an embarrassment?  Whoops!  There goes the reason for obeying the Sky Daddy!

And yet, you think I am hateful because I point these uncomfortable truths out to you.  Funny, that.  Project much?


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You know...this doesn't even make sense to me AT ALL.  

So, are you saying that since I hold to a particular moral standard that I see as the perfect goal, that I then should be fucking mean as hell to people who can't maintain that standard?  How in the holy hell would I be able to do that and live with myself????  Wouldn't that be incredibly, insanely hypocritical???  Why do I have to be unfriendly, and not show friendly concern?  Shit, I would certainly hope that there would be people out there concerned when I fuck up.  Luckily there have been!

I am stating what I hold to be the best possible way of living.  We all make mistakes and all have regrets.  Must, then, my next response be to damn everyone to hell?  That is RIDICULOUS.
Posted by: MadPanda, FCD on Jan. 25 2011,12:39

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,12:34)
Quote (MadPanda @ FCD,Jan. 25 2011,12:17)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,12:05)
Hmmm...I always find it interesting to watch how people picture me.  It's funny....I don't harbor any feelings of hate for anyone.  What is the point?  I found out loooongggg ago that hate sucks...make ya feel horrible 24/7.  Life's too short.  

What kind of legal punishment could possibly be given?   I don't think I've ever heard pro-choice people offering possible ideas for punishing people legally who have had an abortion.  Honestly, it's never crossed my mind.  From where I stand, I've always wanted to see the numbers of abortions decrease by millions through education, counseling, etc..  I've never once considered someone who had an abortion evil.  Gawd...I'm a woman...I know full well what goes through one's mind when you become pregnant.  Come on....chill a little.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Pull ye the other one: you pass judgment at one remove and pretend that you don't, because it's all about what your imaginary friend wants.

You judge those who do not behave as you do, be they promiscuous, premarital, or gay...but you hide it behind nice language and friendly concern.  It's all about what your imaginary friend tells you is right.  It's all about the magic book with the magic words and unquestionable instructions.

Your very belief system entails consigning people with whom you do not agree to everlasting punishment on the basis of what a figment of your imagination is said to have commanded.  It certainly allows you to write others off as subhuman when it's convenient!  Or do you discard the doctrine of hell when it proves to be an embarrassment?  Whoops!  There goes the reason for obeying the Sky Daddy!

And yet, you think I am hateful because I point these uncomfortable truths out to you.  Funny, that.  Project much?


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You know...this doesn't even make sense to me AT ALL.  

So, are you saying that since I hold to a particular moral standard that I see as the perfect goal, that I then should be fucking mean as hell to people who can't maintain that standard?  How in the holy hell would I be able to do that and live with myself????  Wouldn't that be incredibly, insanely hypocritical???  Why do I have to be unfriendly, and not show friendly concern?  Shit, I would certainly hope that there would be people out there concerned when I fuck up.  Luckily there have been!

I am stating what I hold to be the best possible way of living.  We all make mistakes and all have regrets.  Must, then, my next response be to damn everyone to hell?  That is RIDICULOUS.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Try reading for comprehension, ftk.

Are you saying that all that stuff about hellfire and damnation isn't to be taken seriously?

Do you deny that you earlier commented that it is your imaginary friend's business to judge?

Do you understand the concept of 'Minnesota nice'?  You're using it.


The MadPanda, FCD
Posted by: khan on Jan. 25 2011,12:39

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,13:34)
Quote (MadPanda @ FCD,Jan. 25 2011,12:17)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,12:05)
Hmmm...I always find it interesting to watch how people picture me.  It's funny....I don't harbor any feelings of hate for anyone.  What is the point?  I found out loooongggg ago that hate sucks...make ya feel horrible 24/7.  Life's too short.  

What kind of legal punishment could possibly be given?   I don't think I've ever heard pro-choice people offering possible ideas for punishing people legally who have had an abortion.  Honestly, it's never crossed my mind.  From where I stand, I've always wanted to see the numbers of abortions decrease by millions through education, counseling, etc..  I've never once considered someone who had an abortion evil.  Gawd...I'm a woman...I know full well what goes through one's mind when you become pregnant.  Come on....chill a little.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Pull ye the other one: you pass judgment at one remove and pretend that you don't, because it's all about what your imaginary friend wants.

You judge those who do not behave as you do, be they promiscuous, premarital, or gay...but you hide it behind nice language and friendly concern.  It's all about what your imaginary friend tells you is right.  It's all about the magic book with the magic words and unquestionable instructions.

Your very belief system entails consigning people with whom you do not agree to everlasting punishment on the basis of what a figment of your imagination is said to have commanded.  It certainly allows you to write others off as subhuman when it's convenient!  Or do you discard the doctrine of hell when it proves to be an embarrassment?  Whoops!  There goes the reason for obeying the Sky Daddy!

And yet, you think I am hateful because I point these uncomfortable truths out to you.  Funny, that.  Project much?


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You know...this doesn't even make sense to me AT ALL.  

So, are you saying that since I hold to a particular moral standard that I see as the perfect goal, that I then should be fucking mean as hell to people who can't maintain that standard?  How in the holy hell would I be able to do that and live with myself????  Wouldn't that be incredibly, insanely hypocritical???  Why do I have to be unfriendly, and not show friendly concern?  Shit, I would certainly hope that there would be people out there concerned when I fuck up.  Luckily there have been!

I am stating what I hold to be the best possible way of living.  We all make mistakes and all have regrets.  Must, then, my next response be to damn everyone to hell?  That is RIDICULOUS.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So I'm not going to hell?
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Jan. 25 2011,12:42

yes but not for that.  for the cats
Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on Jan. 25 2011,12:44

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Jan. 25 2011,18:42)
yes but not for that.  for the cats
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Massive LOL right there!
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 25 2011,12:44

Quote (khan @ Jan. 25 2011,12:32)
Quote (Louis @ Jan. 25 2011,13:17)
You should be very justifiably proud.

I shall have to beat my boy more, he's 19 months and barely knows any quantum mechanics and he cannot even write a symphony yet.*

Louis

*I'm not serious. Of course he can write a symphony! (I'm not serious about the beating of course...is that Child Services at the door?)
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I'm 60, I've been married & divorced; I've had an abortion; I've had wisdom teeth yanked; I've had sex outside of marriage.
I've also eaten shrimp & clams; & have worn clothes of mixed fabrics; & interplanted crops.

Which of these behaviors are subject to stoning or shunning?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Always looking for punishment, aren't you?  I'm giving you the ideal....what is strived for.  Even 'ol SD has fallen into the one man/one woman.  It's what works in the end.  

It's not a perfect world, obviously.  I personally believe we learn a lot about life from our mistakes.  That doesn't mean that Ima support abortion because it makes you all feel better.

You bringing up stoning and shunning is entirely a different subject that should be taken back to Christianity 101.
Posted by: Louis on Jan. 25 2011,12:44

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,18:17)
Quote (Louis @ Jan. 25 2011,11:33)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,17:18)
 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
These "lifestyles" to which people who don't share your precise response to a photo, what are they? How do you know what you claim to know? Why is someone's emotional response to a photo predicated on some claimed lifestyle that person has?

You're making claims and judgements you have no basis for, do you think that might have some bearing on your intellectual integrity?

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Same lifestyle as I've lived from time to time.  You play, you pay.  I'm not be condescending.  I could bring up my past payments, but I don't particularly care to see this thread turn into a Jerry Springer circus.

I'm just stating the obvious...chill brother.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Does anything you've said even remotely resemble details? No.

Does anything you've said even remotely resemble an argument? No.

I'm not asking for your personal details, FTK, I profoundly do not care about them.

You made a very specific claim which runs thus:

"People who do not share my emotional and visceral reaction to a photo of an aborted foetus are Dahmeresque sub-humans who do not share my emotional and visceral reaction because of their lifestyle".

This is not obvious, it's not even true as it happens, and this brother is so chilled you could keep a side of meat in him for a month.

You make a claim, you support a claim. Period. End of story, The fat lady she singeth and cetera.

If you cannot support the claim, say so and retract it. No biggie.

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Again, stating the obvious.....no scientific graphs and charts needed.

Let's say for a moment, that we all lived the life....one man/one woman forever Amen.

That imediately does away with virtually all std's and the vast, vast majority of all unwanted pregnancies.  Not all....but most.  And, we'd have those little babies anyway and work things out.  

Lifestyle....period.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Where does one even start?

And weren't we talking about REACTIONS TO PHOTOS, FTK? Weren't you the one who complained (wrongly) about the errors of others for ascribing an inconsistent position to you?

So the people who are the Dahmer-esque sub-humans are not the ones who do not share your reaction to a photo, but the people who have an abortion now? You're being more than a little inconsistent FTK. I've bolded your claim in the quoted post above. Support that claim.

You said that people who looked at a photo and didn't feel a set of feelings you described yourself as feeling were Dahmeresque sub-humans and only felt that way because of their lifestyle. Let me give you a hint, the set of people who do not share your reaction to those sorts of photos are not necessarily the same as the set of people who have had abortions. You are talking about two different sets of people.

To clarify this even more for you, it is possible for, say, a single, celibate pathologist to look at photos of dimembered foetuses with a greater degree of dispassion than you and to have never had, or been responsible for, a pregnancy that was deliberately terminated by abortion. Thus the set of people who have had abortions does not include the set of people who have different reactions to your own when presented with those photographs. Lifestyle? I think not.

It is equally possible for a promiscuous person, who has had many abortions, or been responsible for many pregnancies which ended in abortions, to have precisely the visceral, emotional reaction to those photos you do. Thus the set of people who have the same reactions to these photos as you does not include the set of people who have not had abortions. Lifestyle again? In a word: no.

Your tedious moralising is as unexamined and bigotted as your life.

Louis
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 25 2011,12:45

Quote (khan @ Jan. 25 2011,12:39)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,13:34)
Quote (MadPanda @ FCD,Jan. 25 2011,12:17)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,12:05)
Hmmm...I always find it interesting to watch how people picture me.  It's funny....I don't harbor any feelings of hate for anyone.  What is the point?  I found out loooongggg ago that hate sucks...make ya feel horrible 24/7.  Life's too short.  

What kind of legal punishment could possibly be given?   I don't think I've ever heard pro-choice people offering possible ideas for punishing people legally who have had an abortion.  Honestly, it's never crossed my mind.  From where I stand, I've always wanted to see the numbers of abortions decrease by millions through education, counseling, etc..  I've never once considered someone who had an abortion evil.  Gawd...I'm a woman...I know full well what goes through one's mind when you become pregnant.  Come on....chill a little.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Pull ye the other one: you pass judgment at one remove and pretend that you don't, because it's all about what your imaginary friend wants.

You judge those who do not behave as you do, be they promiscuous, premarital, or gay...but you hide it behind nice language and friendly concern.  It's all about what your imaginary friend tells you is right.  It's all about the magic book with the magic words and unquestionable instructions.

Your very belief system entails consigning people with whom you do not agree to everlasting punishment on the basis of what a figment of your imagination is said to have commanded.  It certainly allows you to write others off as subhuman when it's convenient!  Or do you discard the doctrine of hell when it proves to be an embarrassment?  Whoops!  There goes the reason for obeying the Sky Daddy!

And yet, you think I am hateful because I point these uncomfortable truths out to you.  Funny, that.  Project much?


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You know...this doesn't even make sense to me AT ALL.  

So, are you saying that since I hold to a particular moral standard that I see as the perfect goal, that I then should be fucking mean as hell to people who can't maintain that standard?  How in the holy hell would I be able to do that and live with myself????  Wouldn't that be incredibly, insanely hypocritical???  Why do I have to be unfriendly, and not show friendly concern?  Shit, I would certainly hope that there would be people out there concerned when I fuck up.  Luckily there have been!

I am stating what I hold to be the best possible way of living.  We all make mistakes and all have regrets.  Must, then, my next response be to damn everyone to hell?  That is RIDICULOUS.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So I'm not going to hell?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


lol....no one is going to hell just for having an abortion.
Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on Jan. 25 2011,12:47



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Even 'ol SD has fallen into the one man/one woman.  It's what works in the end.  
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Hey FTK, don't get carried away!

if Ali was into all that moresome hot steamy stuff, we'd be out shagging a whole college dorm right now. She's just not into it, and I'm loving and gentlemanly enough to put her at the top of my priorities.

I live well with that, because she allows me to watch porn and wank as much as I want when needed.*



*TMI?
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Jan. 25 2011,12:50

what if you have sex with an abortion.  out side of marriage.  while eating shellfish wearing a cotton-polyester blend in the middle of cherokee beans-corn-squash agriculture plot?  

for fucks sake FtK you called people Dahmeresque simply because they have a different aesthetic than you.  own that shit you hypocrite
Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on Jan. 25 2011,12:51



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Where does one even start?

And weren't we talking about REACTIONS TO PHOTOS, FTK? Weren't you the one who complained (wrongly) about the errors of others for ascribing an inconsistent position to you?

So the people who are the Dahmer-esque sub-humans are not the ones who do not share your reaction to a photo, but the people who have an abortion now? You're being more than a little inconsistent FTK. I've bolded your claim in the quoted post above. Support that claim.

You said that people who looked at a photo and didn't feel a set of feelings you described yourself as feeling were Dahmeresque sub-humans and only felt that way because of their lifestyle. Let me give you a hint, the set of people who do not share your reaction to those sorts of photos are not necessarily the same as the set of people who have had abortions. You are talking about two different sets of people.

To clarify this even more for you, it is possible for, say, a single, celibate pathologist to look at photos of dimembered foetuses with a greater degree of dispassion than you and to have never had, or been responsible for, a pregnancy that was deliberately terminated by abortion. Thus the set of people who have had abortions does not include the set of people who have different reactions to your own when presented with those photographs. Lifestyle? I think not.

It is equally possible for a promiscuous person, who has had many abortions, or been responsible for many pregnancies which ended in abortions, to have precisely the visceral, emotional reaction to those photos you do. Thus the set of people who have the same reactions to these photos as you does not include the set of people who have not had abortions. Lifestyle again? In a word: no.

Your tedious moralising is as unexamined and bigotted as your life.

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



This, right here, sums it up very nicely. I would push for PotW for the simple fact that it's simple, effective, unbiased, and Louis paid me to do so...

So... PotW?
Posted by: MadPanda, FCD on Jan. 25 2011,12:51

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,12:45)
lol....no one is going to hell just for having an abortion.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Right.  And you would know this, how, exactly?  And your credentials in this matter would be what, exactly?  (Forgive the snarky tone.  This isn't so different from FL or Biggy claiming to have the right interpretation of scripture, all others be damned.  Just because I LIKE your take on the matter doesn't mean I should just overlook the questions.)

Instead of telling this to us, why aren't you out trying to convince your fellow believers of this?  Because this makes you the first (Christian) pro-birther I've ever heard make this (welcome and encouraging) concession...and there are a whole lot of others who haven't gotten the memo.

I would add that, all snark on my part aside, I do find your commitment to reducing the number of abortions by education and other means of birth control to be more consistent and helpful than the usual noise that results.  Credit where it's due...


The MadPanda, FCD
Posted by: khan on Jan. 25 2011,12:54

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,13:45)


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
lol....no one is going to hell just for having an abortion.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Why not?

What about interplanting?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Is my arthritis some sort of intergenerational punishment?
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 25 2011,12:57

"Try reading for comprehension, ftk."

OK

"Are you saying that all that stuff about hellfire and damnation isn't to be taken seriously?"

IN REGARD TO WHAT?  ABORTION?  DO I THINK THERE IS A HELL?  YES.  DO I THINK THAT BECAUSE YOU HAVE AN ABORTION, YOU'RE GOING TO HELL?  NO.

"Do you deny that you earlier commented that it is your imaginary friend's business to judge?"

OF COURSE NOT...IT'S *ONLY* HIS PLACE TO JUDGE.  IT IS MY PLACE TO SHARE MY VIEWS IN REGARD TO GOALS BEST STRIVED FOR.

"Do you understand the concept of 'Minnesota nice'?  You're using it."

NO, NOR DO I CARE.  I AM BEING ME...I WILL NOT BE MEAN (UNLESS I LOSE IT EMOTIONALLY) TO PEOPLE WHO HOLD DIFFERENT VIEWS THAN I DO JUST TO MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER FOR SOME WEIRD TWISTED REASON.  THAT'S NO WHO I AM, AND IT'S NOT HOW I FEEL REGARDLESS OF THE GOD FACTOR OR NOT.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 25 2011,12:58

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Jan. 25 2011,12:50)
what if you have sex with an abortion.  out side of marriage.  while eating shellfish wearing a cotton-polyester blend in the middle of cherokee beans-corn-squash agriculture plot?  

for fucks sake FtK you called people Dahmeresque simply because they have a different aesthetic than you.  own that shit you hypocrite
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


pull the doobie out and retype that
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Jan. 25 2011,12:59

DONT TELL ME WHAT TO DO
Posted by: khan on Jan. 25 2011,13:01

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,13:58)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Jan. 25 2011,12:50)
what if you have sex with an abortion.  out side of marriage.  while eating shellfish wearing a cotton-polyester blend in the middle of cherokee beans-corn-squash agriculture plot?  

for fucks sake FtK you called people Dahmeresque simply because they have a different aesthetic than you.  own that shit you hypocrite
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


pull the doobie out and retype that
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So you think the biblical condemnations are a piece of shit? Or do you pick & choose which shit you adhere to?
Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on Jan. 25 2011,13:02

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Jan. 25 2011,18:59)
DONT TELL ME WHAT TO DO
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


DONT TELL HER TO NOT TELL YOU WHAT TO DO!!!111ONE1








Sorry, been working out this morning, low blood-sugar, etc...
Posted by: khan on Jan. 25 2011,13:02

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Jan. 25 2011,13:42)
yes but not for that.  for the cats
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I've known for a long time that the cats would lead me to hell.
Posted by: dheddle on Jan. 25 2011,13:04

Quote (MadPanda @ FCD,Jan. 25 2011,12:51)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,12:45)
lol....no one is going to hell just for having an abortion.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Right.  And you would know this, how, exactly?  And your credentials in this matter would be what, exactly?  (Forgive the snarky tone.  This isn't so different from FL or Biggy claiming to have the right interpretation of scripture, all others be damned.  Just because I LIKE your take on the matter doesn't mean I should just overlook the questions.)

Instead of telling this to us, why aren't you out trying to convince your fellow believers of this?  Because this makes you the first (Christian) pro-birther I've ever heard make this (welcome and encouraging) concession...and there are a whole lot of others who haven't gotten the memo.

I would add that, all snark on my part aside, I do find your commitment to reducing the number of abortions by education and other means of birth control to be more consistent and helpful than the usual noise that results.  Credit where it's due...


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You are kidding, right? Ftk is absolutely correct in this theological point--and it is broad-based Christianity 101. That is, Christianity teaches that you go to heaven if you have placed your faith in the power of Christ's death to atone for your sins. And if you don't, then you don't. On that there is nearly universal agreement--so much so that that is as good of a working definition of Christianity that you can find.

The consequence of which is:

If you have had abortions and have the aforementioned saving faith, you are saved.

If you devote your entire life to charity yet lack this faith, then you are lost.

The are a lot of details about which have internecine  warfare--such as how the faith is acquired, but on what I just wrote--no disagreement to speak of.  

We must associate with different Christians--because I never heard even one say "if you have an abortion you will go to hell." If I did, I'd be tempted to smack him.
Posted by: khan on Jan. 25 2011,13:04

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,13:44)
Quote (khan @ Jan. 25 2011,12:32)
Quote (Louis @ Jan. 25 2011,13:17)
You should be very justifiably proud.

I shall have to beat my boy more, he's 19 months and barely knows any quantum mechanics and he cannot even write a symphony yet.*

Louis

*I'm not serious. Of course he can write a symphony! (I'm not serious about the beating of course...is that Child Services at the door?)
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I'm 60, I've been married & divorced; I've had an abortion; I've had wisdom teeth yanked; I've had sex outside of marriage.
I've also eaten shrimp & clams; & have worn clothes of mixed fabrics; & interplanted crops.

Which of these behaviors are subject to stoning or shunning?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Always looking for punishment, aren't you?  I'm giving you the ideal....what is strived for.  Even 'ol SD has fallen into the one man/one woman.  It's what works in the end.  

It's not a perfect world, obviously.  I personally believe we learn a lot about life from our mistakes.  That doesn't mean that Ima support abortion because it makes you all feel better.

You bringing up stoning and shunning is entirely a different subject that should be taken back to Christianity 101.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Jesus fucking shit: what behaviors should lead to death/hell?
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 25 2011,13:05

Quote (khan @ Jan. 25 2011,13:01)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,13:58)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Jan. 25 2011,12:50)
what if you have sex with an abortion.  out side of marriage.  while eating shellfish wearing a cotton-polyester blend in the middle of cherokee beans-corn-squash agriculture plot?  

for fucks sake FtK you called people Dahmeresque simply because they have a different aesthetic than you.  own that shit you hypocrite
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


pull the doobie out and retype that
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So you think the biblical condemnations are a piece of shit? Or do you pick & choose which shit you adhere to?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


khan, you got about a month of one on one time for me to go into this with you?  In the long run, you don't care...so just let it go.
Posted by: MadPanda, FCD on Jan. 25 2011,13:06

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,12:57)
"Try reading for comprehension, ftk."

OK

"Are you saying that all that stuff about hellfire and damnation isn't to be taken seriously?"

IN REGARD TO WHAT?  ABORTION?  DO I THINK THERE IS A HELL?  YES.  DO I THINK THAT BECAUSE YOU HAVE AN ABORTION, YOU'RE GOING TO HELL?  NO.

"Do you deny that you earlier commented that it is your imaginary friend's business to judge?"

OF COURSE NOT...IT'S *ONLY* HIS PLACE TO JUDGE.  IT IS MY PLACE TO SHARE MY VIEWS IN REGARD TO GOALS BEST STRIVED FOR.

"Do you understand the concept of 'Minnesota nice'?  You're using it."

NO, NOR DO I CARE.  I AM BEING ME...I WILL NOT BE MEAN (UNLESS I LOSE IT EMOTIONALLY) TO PEOPLE WHO HOLD DIFFERENT VIEWS THAN I DO JUST TO MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER FOR SOME WEIRD TWISTED REASON.  THAT'S NO WHO I AM, AND IT'S NOT HOW I FEEL REGARDLESS OF THE GOD FACTOR OR NOT.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Here's the thing.

You judge, all right.  You are perfectly willing to write other people off for not believing in your imaginary friend, or following your oh-so-perfect interpretation of your magic book with magic words...but you pretend that it's all your imaginary friend's doing.  That's an abdication of responsibility.  It's also deliberately acting in bad faith.  It's 'Minnesota nice' of you.

Why are you getting so upset over this?  It's all just whispers, isn't it?  It ought not be so divisive.  Remember?


The MadPanda, FCD
Posted by: khan on Jan. 25 2011,13:09

Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,14:04)
Quote (MadPanda @ FCD,Jan. 25 2011,12:51)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,12:45)
lol....no one is going to hell just for having an abortion.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Right.  And you would know this, how, exactly?  And your credentials in this matter would be what, exactly?  (Forgive the snarky tone.  This isn't so different from FL or Biggy claiming to have the right interpretation of scripture, all others be damned.  Just because I LIKE your take on the matter doesn't mean I should just overlook the questions.)

Instead of telling this to us, why aren't you out trying to convince your fellow believers of this?  Because this makes you the first (Christian) pro-birther I've ever heard make this (welcome and encouraging) concession...and there are a whole lot of others who haven't gotten the memo.

I would add that, all snark on my part aside, I do find your commitment to reducing the number of abortions by education and other means of birth control to be more consistent and helpful than the usual noise that results.  Credit where it's due...


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You are kidding, right? Ftk is absolutely correct in this theological point--and it is broad-based Christianity 101. That is, Christianity teaches that you go to heaven if you have placed your faith in the power of Christ's death to atone for your sins. And if you don't, then you don't. On that there is nearly universal agreement--so much so that that is as good of a working definition of Christianity that you can find.

The consequence of which is:

If you have had abortions and have the aforementioned saving faith, you are saved.

If you devote your entire life to charity yet lack this faith, then you are lost.

The are a lot of details about which have internecine  warfare--such as how the faith is acquired, but on what I just wrote--no disagreement to speak of.  

We must associate with different Christians--because I never heard even one say "if you have an abortion you will go to hell." If I did, I'd be tempted to smack him.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So you think I am going to some sort of eternal torment because your fucking god declared it so from the beginning?

Thank you jebus & heddle & nascat.
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 25 2011,13:10

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Jan. 25 2011,12:59)
DONT TELL ME WHAT TO DO
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


lmfao.  That there is funny.  

See there?  

Now, Eramus is a TOTAL ass, but how can I possibly not love him?
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Jan. 25 2011,13:11

hell yeah, she "judges"

for instance, anyone who doesn't have the FtK sanctioned reaction to a picture of an aborted fetus is "Dahmeresque" and "sub-human"

all this bullshit about who is going to hell just lets her equivocate and vacillate far away from her original statement, which by the way Heddle echoed.

So, again, you twinks,



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Anyone who can look at an aborted fetus and think anything but MMMMMM MEAT is sub-human
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



suck on that.  see how stupid this is

*ETA FtK you love sub-humans?  You realize that is almost beast
Posted by: MadPanda, FCD on Jan. 25 2011,13:12

Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,13:04)
Quote (MadPanda @ FCD,Jan. 25 2011,12:51)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,12:45)
lol....no one is going to hell just for having an abortion.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Right.  And you would know this, how, exactly?  And your credentials in this matter would be what, exactly?  (Forgive the snarky tone.  This isn't so different from FL or Biggy claiming to have the right interpretation of scripture, all others be damned.  Just because I LIKE your take on the matter doesn't mean I should just overlook the questions.)

Instead of telling this to us, why aren't you out trying to convince your fellow believers of this?  Because this makes you the first (Christian) pro-birther I've ever heard make this (welcome and encouraging) concession...and there are a whole lot of others who haven't gotten the memo.

I would add that, all snark on my part aside, I do find your commitment to reducing the number of abortions by education and other means of birth control to be more consistent and helpful than the usual noise that results.  Credit where it's due...


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You are kidding, right? Ftk is absolutely correct in this theological point--and it is broad-based Christianity 101. That is, Christianity teaches that you go to heaven if you have placed your faith in the power of Christ's death to atone for your sins. And if you don't, then you don't. On that there is nearly universal agreement--so much so that that is as good of a working definition of Christianity that you can find.

The consequence of which is:

If you have had abortions and have the aforementioned saving faith, you are saved.

If you devote your entire life to charity yet lack this faith, then you are lost.

The are a lot of details about which have internecine  warfare--such as how the faith is acquired, but on what I just wrote--no disagreement to speak of.  

We must associate with different Christians--because I never heard even one say "if you have an abortion you will go to hell." If I did, I'd be tempted to smack him.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Heddle, I understand that you can't help it because you're a Calvinist, but since I consider Calvinism to be an immoral doctrine at best, your interpretation of ftk isn't helpful here.

Here you go with the argument from incredulity again!  You have either redefined Christian to mean an incredibly tiny subset of the whole, or you have some heavy-duty blinders on.

There is a reason I refer to your variation of the imaginary friend as a monster, but that's a completely different discussion for another time.


The MadPanda, FCD
Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on Jan. 25 2011,13:12

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,19:10)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Jan. 25 2011,12:59)
DONT TELL ME WHAT TO DO
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


lmfao.  That there is funny.  

See there?  

Now, Eramus is a TOTAL ass, but how can I possibly not love him?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


At least he's our ass!


Wait, that didn't come out right...
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 25 2011,13:13

Quote (MadPanda, FCD @ Jan. 25 2011,13:06)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,12:57)
"Try reading for comprehension, ftk."

OK

"Are you saying that all that stuff about hellfire and damnation isn't to be taken seriously?"

IN REGARD TO WHAT?  ABORTION?  DO I THINK THERE IS A HELL?  YES.  DO I THINK THAT BECAUSE YOU HAVE AN ABORTION, YOU'RE GOING TO HELL?  NO.

"Do you deny that you earlier commented that it is your imaginary friend's business to judge?"

OF COURSE NOT...IT'S *ONLY* HIS PLACE TO JUDGE.  IT IS MY PLACE TO SHARE MY VIEWS IN REGARD TO GOALS BEST STRIVED FOR.

"Do you understand the concept of 'Minnesota nice'?  You're using it."

NO, NOR DO I CARE.  I AM BEING ME...I WILL NOT BE MEAN (UNLESS I LOSE IT EMOTIONALLY) TO PEOPLE WHO HOLD DIFFERENT VIEWS THAN I DO JUST TO MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER FOR SOME WEIRD TWISTED REASON.  THAT'S NO WHO I AM, AND IT'S NOT HOW I FEEL REGARDLESS OF THE GOD FACTOR OR NOT.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Here's the thing.

You judge, all right.  You are perfectly willing to write other people off for not believing in your imaginary friend, or following your oh-so-perfect interpretation of your magic book with magic words...but you pretend that it's all your imaginary friend's doing.  That's an abdication of responsibility.  It's also deliberately acting in bad faith.  It's 'Minnesota nice' of you.

Why are you getting so upset over this?  It's all just whispers, isn't it?  It ought not be so divisive.  Remember?


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The capitals weren't to be equated with yelling or being upset..lol.  Just a way to respond so it's easy to read who said what.
Posted by: khan on Jan. 25 2011,13:13

Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,14:04)
Quote (MadPanda @ FCD,Jan. 25 2011,12:51)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,12:45)
lol....no one is going to hell just for having an abortion.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Right.  And you would know this, how, exactly?  And your credentials in this matter would be what, exactly?  (Forgive the snarky tone.  This isn't so different from FL or Biggy claiming to have the right interpretation of scripture, all others be damned.  Just because I LIKE your take on the matter doesn't mean I should just overlook the questions.)

Instead of telling this to us, why aren't you out trying to convince your fellow believers of this?  Because this makes you the first (Christian) pro-birther I've ever heard make this (welcome and encouraging) concession...and there are a whole lot of others who haven't gotten the memo.

I would add that, all snark on my part aside, I do find your commitment to reducing the number of abortions by education and other means of birth control to be more consistent and helpful than the usual noise that results.  Credit where it's due...


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You are kidding, right? Ftk is absolutely correct in this theological point--and it is broad-based Christianity 101. That is, Christianity teaches that you go to heaven if you have placed your faith in the power of Christ's death to atone for your sins. And if you don't, then you don't. On that there is nearly universal agreement--so much so that that is as good of a working definition of Christianity that you can find.

The consequence of which is:

If you have had abortions and have the aforementioned saving faith, you are saved.

If you devote your entire life to charity yet lack this faith, then you are lost.

The are a lot of details about which have internecine  warfare--such as how the faith is acquired, but on what I just wrote--no disagreement to speak of.  

We must associate with different Christians--because I never heard even one say "if you have an abortion you will go to hell." If I did, I'd be tempted to smack him.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So do I go to hell for abortion or divorce or blasphemy or being really bad at housework?
Posted by: khan on Jan. 25 2011,13:15

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,14:05)
Quote (khan @ Jan. 25 2011,13:01)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,13:58)
 
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Jan. 25 2011,12:50)
what if you have sex with an abortion.  out side of marriage.  while eating shellfish wearing a cotton-polyester blend in the middle of cherokee beans-corn-squash agriculture plot?  

for fucks sake FtK you called people Dahmeresque simply because they have a different aesthetic than you.  own that shit you hypocrite
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


pull the doobie out and retype that
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So you think the biblical condemnations are a piece of shit? Or do you pick & choose which shit you adhere to?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


khan, you got about a month of one on one time for me to go into this with you?  In the long run, you don't care...so just let it go.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Don't fuck with me: I've debugged COBOL in hex.
Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on Jan. 25 2011,13:19



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Don't fuck with me: I've debugged COBOL in hex.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



O_o genuinely impressed. I don't know what a COBOL is or what hex does (appart from Prtachettian universe)...
Posted by: oldmanintheskydidntdoit on Jan. 25 2011,13:19

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,13:05)
Quote (khan @ Jan. 25 2011,13:01)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,13:58)
 
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Jan. 25 2011,12:50)
what if you have sex with an abortion.  out side of marriage.  while eating shellfish wearing a cotton-polyester blend in the middle of cherokee beans-corn-squash agriculture plot?  

for fucks sake FtK you called people Dahmeresque simply because they have a different aesthetic than you.  own that shit you hypocrite
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


pull the doobie out and retype that
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So you think the biblical condemnations are a piece of shit? Or do you pick & choose which shit you adhere to?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


khan, you got about a month of one on one time for me to go into this with you?  In the long run, you don't care...so just let it go.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


If you like we could go into the PM I sent you which you called "interesting" IIRC.

In fact we could spend not months but years talking about the ramifications of that single image and what it means.

But you'd rather talk about anything but. I wonder why.
Posted by: khan on Jan. 25 2011,13:21

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 25 2011,14:19)


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Don't fuck with me: I've debugged COBOL in hex.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



O_o genuinely impressed. I don't know what a COBOL is or what hex does (appart from Prtachettian universe)...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Young one. I've been fucking with computers since before you were born. :)
Posted by: midwifetoad on Jan. 25 2011,13:24

I could tell you about troubleshooting Fibonacci algorithms implemented in core memory.

Actually, I couldn't. I've forgotten it all.
Posted by: dheddle on Jan. 25 2011,13:25

Quote (MadPanda @ FCD,Jan. 25 2011,13:12)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,13:04)
 
Quote (MadPanda @ FCD,Jan. 25 2011,12:51)
     
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,12:45)
lol....no one is going to hell just for having an abortion.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Right.  And you would know this, how, exactly?  And your credentials in this matter would be what, exactly?  (Forgive the snarky tone.  This isn't so different from FL or Biggy claiming to have the right interpretation of scripture, all others be damned.  Just because I LIKE your take on the matter doesn't mean I should just overlook the questions.)

Instead of telling this to us, why aren't you out trying to convince your fellow believers of this?  Because this makes you the first (Christian) pro-birther I've ever heard make this (welcome and encouraging) concession...and there are a whole lot of others who haven't gotten the memo.

I would add that, all snark on my part aside, I do find your commitment to reducing the number of abortions by education and other means of birth control to be more consistent and helpful than the usual noise that results.  Credit where it's due...


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You are kidding, right? Ftk is absolutely correct in this theological point--and it is broad-based Christianity 101. That is, Christianity teaches that you go to heaven if you have placed your faith in the power of Christ's death to atone for your sins. And if you don't, then you don't. On that there is nearly universal agreement--so much so that that is as good of a working definition of Christianity that you can find.

The consequence of which is:

If you have had abortions and have the aforementioned saving faith, you are saved.

If you devote your entire life to charity yet lack this faith, then you are lost.

The are a lot of details about which have internecine  warfare--such as how the faith is acquired, but on what I just wrote--no disagreement to speak of.  

We must associate with different Christians--because I never heard even one say "if you have an abortion you will go to hell." If I did, I'd be tempted to smack him.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Heddle, I understand that you can't help it because you're a Calvinist, but since I consider Calvinism to be an immoral doctrine at best, your interpretation of ftk isn't helpful here.

Here you go with the argument from incredulity again!  You have either redefined Christian to mean an incredibly tiny subset of the whole, or you have some heavy-duty blinders on.

There is a reason I refer to your variation of the imaginary friend as a monster, but that's a completely different discussion for another time.


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Nice try (not really)  but alas there is no Calvinism in my post. Being saved by faith in the finished work of Christ is a doctrine shared by the majority of Christians. Calvinists, non-Calvinists, Protestants, and Catholics.

That's about the third time you used "heddle is a Calvinist" as a blunt instrument. If you want a piece of advice--wait until I actually make an argument from Calvinism before you use it as an argument stopper.
Posted by: MadPanda, FCD on Jan. 25 2011,13:26

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,13:13)
The capitals weren't to be equated with yelling or being upset..lol.  Just a way to respond so it's easy to read who said what.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Somehow I find it difficult to treat that claim credibly.  Can't think why.

Oh, right.  Because I've known too many Christians.  (/Inigo Montoya)  For that matter, I was one until the Biggys and FLs and heddles encouraged me to apply Occam's Chainsaw a bit more broadly.  But that's off topic.

I ask again--why should I take your interpretation of this matter more seriously than that being pushed forward by so many of your co-religionists?


The MadPanda, FCD
Posted by: Albatrossity2 on Jan. 25 2011,13:27

Quote (Louis @ Jan. 25 2011,12:44)
Where Why does one even start?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


FTFY
Posted by: Louis on Jan. 25 2011,13:30

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Jan. 25 2011,19:27)
Quote (Louis @ Jan. 25 2011,12:44)
Where Why does one even start?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


FTFY
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Rem acu tetigisti.

Louis
Posted by: Richardthughes on Jan. 25 2011,13:31

Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,12:00)
Off Topic, and mostly for my pal Richard Hughes:

my son (who is autistic) < on youtube. >

You can bump this proud daddy to the BW, but he will not be deterred!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


*STANDS AND APPLAUDS*

Simply fantastic! I hope it brings him great joy to play it. What a gift! Tell him I think he's a star.
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Jan. 25 2011,13:31

Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,13:00)
Off Topic, and mostly for my pal Richard Hughes:

my son (who is autistic) < on youtube. >

You can bump this proud daddy to the BW, but he will not be deterred!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


nice!

that's quite a memory.  although i haven't tried to memorize a piano piece in years, i am pretty sure that faculty is shot to shit.  for one, improvisation destroyed it.  and college.  post moar!
Posted by: MadPanda, FCD on Jan. 25 2011,13:33

Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,13:25)
Nice try (not really)  but alas there is no Calvinism in my post. Being saved by faith in the finished work of Christ is a doctrine shared by the majority of Christians. Calvinists, non-Calvinists, Protestants, and Catholics.

That's about the third time you used "heddle is a Calvinist" as a blunt instrument. If you want a piece of advice--wait until I actually make an argument from Calvinism before you use it as an argument stopper.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Sorry, heddle, but mercy is for the merciful.  Your opinion on these matters is well known, as is your affiliation.  And since, in my opinion, your opinions on these matters come from your particular denomination's interpretation, I will continue to refer to this fact.  

If you feel I have misrepresented or misquoted you, of course, I would expect you to point it out...but let there be no misunderstanding--you are a Calvinist, as you have said so yourself many times.  It is hardly unfair of me to refer to you as such.

Since nobody is forcing you to read my posts, nor to respond to them, you might as well simply ignore them.  It isn't as though I have any plans of trying to change your mind.


The MadPanda, FCD
Posted by: khan on Jan. 25 2011,13:34

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Jan. 25 2011,14:19)


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Don't fuck with me: I've debugged COBOL in hex.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



O_o genuinely impressed. I don't know what a COBOL is or what hex does (appart from Prtachettian universe)...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


COBOL is the mainframe computer language that most of your shit still runs
HEX is hexadecimal which most stuff still runs along with octal and binary
Did I mention I'm old & vulgar?
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Jan. 25 2011,13:35

well, you are a Dahmeresque sub-human.  we have that on good some kinda authority
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 25 2011,13:36

Quote (MadPanda, FCD @ Jan. 25 2011,13:26)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,13:13)
The capitals weren't to be equated with yelling or being upset..lol.  Just a way to respond so it's easy to read who said what.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Somehow I find it difficult to treat that claim credibly.  Can't think why.

Oh, right.  Because I've known too many Christians.  (/Inigo Montoya)  For that matter, I was one until the Biggys and FLs and heddles encouraged me to apply Occam's Chainsaw a bit more broadly.  But that's off topic.

I ask again--why should I take your interpretation of this matter more seriously than that being pushed forward by so many of your co-religionists?


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Who's asking you to?  I'm long past the point of carrying whether people believe me or not.  Did years ago, but really doesn't matter much to me anymore.
Posted by: khan on Jan. 25 2011,13:37

Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,14:25)
Quote (MadPanda @ FCD,Jan. 25 2011,13:12)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,13:04)
   
Quote (MadPanda @ FCD,Jan. 25 2011,12:51)
     
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,12:45)
lol....no one is going to hell just for having an abortion.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Right.  And you would know this, how, exactly?  And your credentials in this matter would be what, exactly?  (Forgive the snarky tone.  This isn't so different from FL or Biggy claiming to have the right interpretation of scripture, all others be damned.  Just because I LIKE your take on the matter doesn't mean I should just overlook the questions.)

Instead of telling this to us, why aren't you out trying to convince your fellow believers of this?  Because this makes you the first (Christian) pro-birther I've ever heard make this (welcome and encouraging) concession...and there are a whole lot of others who haven't gotten the memo.

I would add that, all snark on my part aside, I do find your commitment to reducing the number of abortions by education and other means of birth control to be more consistent and helpful than the usual noise that results.  Credit where it's due...


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You are kidding, right? Ftk is absolutely correct in this theological point--and it is broad-based Christianity 101. That is, Christianity teaches that you go to heaven if you have placed your faith in the power of Christ's death to atone for your sins. And if you don't, then you don't. On that there is nearly universal agreement--so much so that that is as good of a working definition of Christianity that you can find.

The consequence of which is:

If you have had abortions and have the aforementioned saving faith, you are saved.

If you devote your entire life to charity yet lack this faith, then you are lost.

The are a lot of details about which have internecine  warfare--such as how the faith is acquired, but on what I just wrote--no disagreement to speak of.  

We must associate with different Christians--because I never heard even one say "if you have an abortion you will go to hell." If I did, I'd be tempted to smack him.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Heddle, I understand that you can't help it because you're a Calvinist, but since I consider Calvinism to be an immoral doctrine at best, your interpretation of ftk isn't helpful here.

Here you go with the argument from incredulity again!  You have either redefined Christian to mean an incredibly tiny subset of the whole, or you have some heavy-duty blinders on.

There is a reason I refer to your variation of the imaginary friend as a monster, but that's a completely different discussion for another time.


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Nice try (not really)  but alas there is no Calvinism in my post. Being saved by faith in the finished work of Christ is a doctrine shared by the majority of Christians. Calvinists, non-Calvinists, Protestants, and Catholics.

That's about the third time you used "heddle is a Calvinist" as a blunt instrument. If you want a piece of advice--wait until I actually make an argument from Calvinism before you use it as an argument stopper.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Jesus god fucking shit: we all know that yiu are a Calvinist and that most of us are going to burn in hell for eternity:
BTW: do you still lust for the ignorant fuck Palin?
Posted by: dheddle on Jan. 25 2011,13:42

Quote (MadPanda @ FCD,Jan. 25 2011,13:33)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,13:25)
Nice try (not really)  but alas there is no Calvinism in my post. Being saved by faith in the finished work of Christ is a doctrine shared by the majority of Christians. Calvinists, non-Calvinists, Protestants, and Catholics.

That's about the third time you used "heddle is a Calvinist" as a blunt instrument. If you want a piece of advice--wait until I actually make an argument from Calvinism before you use it as an argument stopper.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Sorry, heddle, but mercy is for the merciful.  Your opinion on these matters is well known, as is your affiliation.  And since, in my opinion, your opinions on these matters come from your particular denomination's interpretation, I will continue to refer to this fact.  

If you feel I have misrepresented or misquoted you, of course, I would expect you to point it out...but let there be no misunderstanding--you are a Calvinist, as you have said so yourself many times.  It is hardly unfair of me to refer to you as such.

Since nobody is forcing you to read my posts, nor to respond to them, you might as well simply ignore them.  It isn't as though I have any plans of trying to change your mind.


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


No you haven't misquoted me or insulted me or anything of that nature. Nor have you been unfair, per se. What you did was argue ad hominem. "Heddle is a Calvinist" is not relevant when the point I am making has nothing to do with Calvinism. For example, we can ask FtK (whom I do not believe is a Calvinist) if she agrees with my working definition of Christianity--that salvation comes from having faith in the work of Christ to atone for your sins. For crying out loud, you could ask Wes. Actually you could ask anyone who has studied Christianity for more than 15 minutes.
Posted by: MadPanda, FCD on Jan. 25 2011,13:43

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,13:36)
Quote (MadPanda @ FCD,Jan. 25 2011,13:26)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,13:13)
The capitals weren't to be equated with yelling or being upset..lol.  Just a way to respond so it's easy to read who said what.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Somehow I find it difficult to treat that claim credibly.  Can't think why.

Oh, right.  Because I've known too many Christians.  (/Inigo Montoya)  For that matter, I was one until the Biggys and FLs and heddles encouraged me to apply Occam's Chainsaw a bit more broadly.  But that's off topic.

I ask again--why should I take your interpretation of this matter more seriously than that being pushed forward by so many of your co-religionists?


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Who's asking you to?  I'm long past the point of carrying whether people believe me or not.  Did years ago, but really doesn't matter much to me anymore.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So you are unable to answer the question.  I see.  Thank you.

Next contestant, please...


The MadPanda, FCD
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 25 2011,13:50

Quote (MadPanda, FCD @ Jan. 25 2011,13:43)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,13:36)
Quote (MadPanda @ FCD,Jan. 25 2011,13:26)
 
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,13:13)
The capitals weren't to be equated with yelling or being upset..lol.  Just a way to respond so it's easy to read who said what.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Somehow I find it difficult to treat that claim credibly.  Can't think why.

Oh, right.  Because I've known too many Christians.  (/Inigo Montoya)  For that matter, I was one until the Biggys and FLs and heddles encouraged me to apply Occam's Chainsaw a bit more broadly.  But that's off topic.

I ask again--why should I take your interpretation of this matter more seriously than that being pushed forward by so many of your co-religionists?


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Who's asking you to?  I'm long past the point of carrying whether people believe me or not.  Did years ago, but really doesn't matter much to me anymore.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So you are unable to answer the question.  I see.  Thank you.

Next contestant, please...


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I don't even know what matter exactly you are talking about at this point?  Be specific.
Posted by: Louis on Jan. 25 2011,13:53

Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,19:42)
Quote (MadPanda @ FCD,Jan. 25 2011,13:33)
   
Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,13:25)
Nice try (not really)  but alas there is no Calvinism in my post. Being saved by faith in the finished work of Christ is a doctrine shared by the majority of Christians. Calvinists, non-Calvinists, Protestants, and Catholics.

That's about the third time you used "heddle is a Calvinist" as a blunt instrument. If you want a piece of advice--wait until I actually make an argument from Calvinism before you use it as an argument stopper.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Sorry, heddle, but mercy is for the merciful.  Your opinion on these matters is well known, as is your affiliation.  And since, in my opinion, your opinions on these matters come from your particular denomination's interpretation, I will continue to refer to this fact.  

If you feel I have misrepresented or misquoted you, of course, I would expect you to point it out...but let there be no misunderstanding--you are a Calvinist, as you have said so yourself many times.  It is hardly unfair of me to refer to you as such.

Since nobody is forcing you to read my posts, nor to respond to them, you might as well simply ignore them.  It isn't as though I have any plans of trying to change your mind.


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


No you haven't misquoted me or insulted me or anything of that nature. Nor have you been unfair, per se. What you did was argue ad hominem. "Heddle is a Calvinist" is not relevant when the point I am making has nothing to do with Calvinism. For example, we can ask FtK (whom I do not believe is a Calvinist) if she agrees with my working definition of Christianity--that salvation comes from having faith in the work of Christ to atone for your sins. For crying out loud, you could ask Wes. Actually you could ask anyone who has studied Christianity for more than 15 minutes.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


That includes me then. Can we not but say we did?

Louis
Posted by: Richardthughes on Jan. 25 2011,13:53

*pulls pants up to nipples*

GERROFF MY LAWN YOU FLAMERS.
Posted by: MadPanda, FCD on Jan. 25 2011,13:54

Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,13:42)
No you haven't misquoted me or insulted me or anything of that nature. Nor have you been unfair, per se. What you did was argue ad hominem. "Heddle is a Calvinist" is not relevant when the point I am making has nothing to do with Calvinism. For example, we can ask FtK (whom I do not believe is a Calvinist) if she agrees with my working definition of Christianity--that salvation comes from having faith in the work of Christ to atone for your sins. For crying out loud, you could ask Wes. Actually you could ask anyone who has studied Christianity for more than 15 minutes.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


While I did not intend to ad hom you, I will admit the possibility that I did so.  I intended that to be descriptive rather than dismissive--there are some lines of argument one must expect from a Calvinist, and you run true to form.  That I find your arguments less than convincing is not the same as saying that I expect, say, ftk to agree with that assessment.  You do, however, use slightly arguments than, say, a Jesuit would.  Hence the repetition.

Why do you assume I don't know anything about Christianity, exactly?


The MadPanda, FCD
Posted by: MadPanda, FCD on Jan. 25 2011,14:02

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,13:50)
I don't even know what matter exactly you are talking about at this point?  Be specific.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Why?  You aren't interested in answering an honest question.  And if you're not interested, I'm certainly not going to force you.

But since you want me to be specific:

Committing a murder will get someone sent to hell, right?

And abortion is murder, yes?

But an abortion will not get someone sent to hell...even though it's murder, and even though a lot of other Christians say that it will.  (Heddle's incredulity aside, he doesn't speak for every possible sect, and frankly his 'common ground' is a bit like describing Led Zepplin's farewell concert as four guys on stage playing instruments.  Accurate but not quite complete.)

So the question is, even though I find your interpretation a refreshing change of pace, why should I take it seriously?  Why is your interpretation better than, say, the Pope's?  Jerry Falwell's?  Joel Osteen's? FL's?


The MadPanda, FCD
Posted by: dheddle on Jan. 25 2011,14:10

Quote (Richardthughes @ Jan. 25 2011,13:31)
Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,12:00)
Off Topic, and mostly for my pal Richard Hughes:

my son (who is autistic) < on youtube. >

You can bump this proud daddy to the BW, but he will not be deterred!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


*STANDS AND APPLAUDS*

Simply fantastic! I hope it brings him great joy to play it. What a gift! Tell him I think he's a star.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Thanks Rich (and Erasmus, and others).
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Jan. 25 2011,14:11

for shit's sake i hardly know any christianists of any stripe who think you are going to hell because you have an abortion.

they already think you are going to hell because you refuse to accept their god.  

or, in other cases, because their god chose sides pre-dawn-of-time and, well, you lost.  so fuck off, in the cosmic eternal sense.  and for fuck's nuts don't go buggering THOSE blokes about free will.  jesus that is one of the most boring conversations ON.THIS.EARTH

so who cares.  this bullshit is about the aesthetic preferences of FtK and Heddle who believe that anyone who thinks that aborted fetuses <= bacon is a "Dahmeresque sub human" or "something like PZ Myers" or something like that.
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Jan. 25 2011,14:13

Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,15:10)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Jan. 25 2011,13:31)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,12:00)
Off Topic, and mostly for my pal Richard Hughes:

my son (who is autistic) < on youtube. >

You can bump this proud daddy to the BW, but he will not be deterred!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


*STANDS AND APPLAUDS*

Simply fantastic! I hope it brings him great joy to play it. What a gift! Tell him I think he's a star.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Thanks Rich (and Erasmus, and others).
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


thanx for posting it.  maybe not his style, but does he play Teh Joplin?
Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on Jan. 25 2011,14:13

I always wondered, is Calvinism somehow linked to Calvin and Hobbs?

If so, where do I sign?
Posted by: Richardthughes on Jan. 25 2011,14:14

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Jan. 25 2011,14:13)
Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,15:10)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Jan. 25 2011,13:31)
 
Quote (dheddle @ Jan. 25 2011,12:00)
Off Topic, and mostly for my pal Richard Hughes:

my son (who is autistic) < on youtube. >

You can bump this proud daddy to the BW, but he will not be deterred!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


*STANDS AND APPLAUDS*

Simply fantastic! I hope it brings him great joy to play it. What a gift! Tell him I think he's a star.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Thanks Rich (and Erasmus, and others).
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


thanx for posting it.  maybe not his style, but does he play Teh Joplin?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Jan. 25 2011,14:19

Oh Yes, and could you get him to play You Got What I Need.  i love that piano part.  And also, Truck Driving Man.  and some shit by oasis.  aaaaah
Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on Jan. 25 2011,14:21

Just showed Luke's video to my girlfriend. Same reaction as me: jaw drops to the floor, explodes laminated mahogany tiles, passes through downstair neighbor's living room and ends up in the gutter crying for mommy.

I'm not saying this to flatter in anyway, but it is very impressive for a person of such young age to master that piece thus.

Kudos to him (and you and your significant one for his upbringing), and then some!
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 25 2011,14:22

Quote (MadPanda, FCD @ Jan. 25 2011,14:02)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,13:50)
I don't even know what matter exactly you are talking about at this point?  Be specific.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Why?  You aren't interested in answering an honest question.  And if you're not interested, I'm certainly not going to force you.

But since you want me to be specific:

Committing a murder will get someone sent to hell, right?

No

And abortion is murder, yes?

Yes

But an abortion will not get someone sent to hell...even though it's murder, and even though a lot of other Christians say that it will.  (Heddle's incredulity aside, he doesn't speak for every possible sect, and frankly his 'common ground' is a bit like describing Led Zepplin's farewell concert as four guys on stage playing instruments.  Accurate but not quite complete.)

So the question is, even though I find your interpretation a refreshing change of pace, why should I take it seriously?  Why is your interpretation better than, say, the Pope's?  Jerry Falwell's?  Joel Osteen's? FL's?

I think maybe you might be misunderstanding a lot of them in regard to the two pointed questions above


The MadPanda, FCD
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


see below
Posted by: Ftk on Jan. 25 2011,14:22

Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,14:22)
Quote (MadPanda @ FCD,Jan. 25 2011,14:02)
Quote (Ftk @ Jan. 25 2011,13:50)
I don't even know what matter exactly you are talking about at this point?  Be specific.
---------------