RSS 2.0 Feed

» Welcome Guest Log In :: Register

Pages: (6) < 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 >   
  Topic: Guns, Germs, and Steel< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Dean Morrison



Posts: 216
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2006,00:46   

Flint - thanks for pointing out my horrible use of the contraction 'It's' - you are absolutely right of course.

However I think you are simply incorrect when you say that 'GOP' is arguing for a 'level playing field' and would not discriminate agains people on the grounds of race (or 'ethnic group' as he prefers to say).

A modest proposal


Quote
So here's the solution:
1) Restrict immigration to those nations who respect our culture.
2) Buy out those immigrants who don't, and send them back to their countries of origin (where they won't be held back by the BEDs who torment them so). Perhaps an average bribe of $5000/yr for every year spent in the host country (up to 10 years), plus all their liquified assets of course
3) Let freedom of commerce and association ring through the land. Abolish minimum wage, race laws, and any other useless, government-bloating, liberty-crushing machinations on the citizen. Let people pay what they want, live with whom they want, and say what they want.
What are the advantages of this model? I'll fill in the details later.
A modest proposal

Of course GOP like to dress up his racism in more palatable terms - but various contributors have managed to tease out the truth of his position.
Of course if he can succees in convincing you that he has a reasonable and respectable position - I'm sure he'll feel a sense of achievement. But I'd be sure to check out what you're buying from him - I think you might balk at some of his ideas if you dig a little deeper.

  
gregonomic



Posts: 44
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2006,05:11   

Flint wrote:
Quote
Ghost has taken a coherent, and as far as I'm concerned entirely reasonable, position. He is advocating (if I understand him correctly) as level a playing field as it is possible to maintain, cultural differences being what they are. His position is that all men are created equal (sound familiar?), and SHOULD be equal in the eyes of the law. Absolutely no Official Favoritism Or Discrimination instituted in favor of or against anyone.


Which is all fine and dandy if the playing field is already level. However, it does nothing to promote the creation of a level playing field. All it does is promote the status quo. Which, I suspect, suits the GoP down to the ground.

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1754
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2006,06:02   

Quote (gregonomic @ Jan. 21 2006,11:11)
Flint wrote:
Quote
Ghost has taken a coherent, and as far as I'm concerned entirely reasonable, position. He is advocating (if I understand him correctly) as level a playing field as it is possible to maintain, cultural differences being what they are. His position is that all men are created equal (sound familiar?), and SHOULD be equal in the eyes of the law. Absolutely no Official Favoritism Or Discrimination instituted in favor of or against anyone.


Which is all fine and dandy if the playing field is already level. However, it does nothing to promote the creation of a level playing field. All it does is promote the status quo. Which, I suspect, suits the GoP down to the ground.

So what would you do?

Implement laws that favour people on racial grounds?
I believe that would backfire at some point.

How about trying to change negative culture, along-side trying to level the opportunities for advancement?
By which I do not mean AA, rather try to get every citizen a reasonably equal opportunity for education while promoting self-reliance.

I do believe in a welfare state. However it should be a safety net, not a lifestyle choice.

  
gregonomic



Posts: 44
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2006,06:39   

Quote
So what would you do?

Implement laws that favour people on racial grounds?


Yes. I thought I'd made that clear already. It wouldn't be a permanent situation, but some sort of affirmative action would help to accelerate progress towards equality, in my view. If the current forms of affirmative action aren't working, then perhaps a different approach is required. But I don't think abandoning affirmative action altogether makes sense.

Quote
How about trying to change negative culture,...


How, exactly?

Quote
...along-side trying to level the opportunities for advancement?
By which I do not mean AA, rather try to get every citizen a reasonably equal opportunity for education while promoting self-reliance.


And how do you level the opportunities for advancement without implementing some sort of affirmative action in favour of those who are currently disadvantaged or discriminated against?

How, exactly, do you "get every citizen a reasonably equal opportunity for education while promoting self-reliance" when some people are starting from a position which is clearly disadvantaged? I don't see how you can do it without consciously giving them a leg up.

Quote
I do believe in a welfare state. However it should be a safety net, not a lifestyle choice.


On that, I'm sure we all agree.

  
gregonomic



Posts: 44
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2006,06:45   

I should amend my previous statement. I don't think affirmative action (or equal opportunity legislation, or whatever you want to call it), should be "race"-based. It should apply to everyone who gets dealt a crappy hand at birth, regardless of "race".

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1754
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2006,07:40   

I would propose far more spending on schools and extra curicula activity. Try to get pupils to engage in both intelectual and physical education. "Be all you can be" springs to mind.

Try to find a way to reward parents for taking a positive role in a childs upbringing/education and punishments for overly negligent parenting.

Rather than just give welfare indiscriminately, expect and demand a certain type of behaviour to qualify for benefits.

Admitedly I am firing from the hip here. Though I do not think people should be given cash just for being unemployed. Something should be required in exchange.

  
Flint



Posts: 478
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2006,08:21   

Maybe education is the key here. The cycle of blacks living in poor inner-city communities, going to schools that teach almost nothing, dropping out capable of very little useful knowledge or skill, needs to be broken somewhere. The problem may lie in the local funding of schools, which tends to be hard on poor communities.

Where I live in Alabama is kind of an enclave, a city of engineers. Engineers value education very highly, and voted themselves (relatively) high local taxes to fund a really excellent school system. But other localities chose not to fund their schools, and the courts found the difference between best and worst funded schools too broad. So naturally, the state legislature decided to take the funding voted locally AWAY from those localities to subsidize those who didn't feel like paying (most of whom could pay, but didn't want to). This of course made things difficult for our local schools, so the county tried to raise school taxes again to make up the shortfall.

And this time, the voters said "We're willing to fund excellent schools for our own children. If other communities want good schools, they can pay for it." So the local schools here are deteriorating. If we pay higher taxes, the state will take the money away anyway.

So there's a problem. Busing has been tried, the idea being that if children of wealthier people are obligated to attend inner-city schools, they'll be willing to fund those schools. At least here, busing was so unpopular that there are NO school buses in my community at all. Not for anybody.

What makes a tilted playing field, even now, is that those who go through the de facto segregated school systems, for the most part, simply can't compete. I think Ghost is correct, like it or not, that the way to make such systems competitive is for those effectively restricted to them to by golly FIX them. Ghost is correct: when the Jews have been sent to the second-class institutions, they haven't subsided into resentful indifference, they have transformed what they've been handed into something excellent. Every time.

I don't know the answer. It seems pretty clear that whenever anyone lends a helping hand, whoever they lend it to reorganizes their life so they can't live without it. Which means that helping hands need strings attached and time limits. Saying this hand should be a safety net and not a lifestyle sounds great, but in practice anything that provides real safety, provides enough to live on. So a safety net isn't an amount of help, it's got to be temporary and narrowly focused. Yeah, we'll help *provided* you use that help to get on you feet, get a job, get an education. It is NOT your money; you don't get to decide how to spend it.

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1754
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2006,08:41   

Schools should be funded at the national level rather than local or state. National standards should be required.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2006,11:03   

The Yenta wrote:
Quote
However I think you are simply incorrect when you say that 'GOP' is arguing for a 'level playing field' and would not discriminate agains people on the grounds of race (or 'ethnic group' as he prefers to say).

      Dean neglects to mention that the buyouts are voluntary: anyone who declines is free to remain in America. So why do it? For one reason, it forces the malcontents to "put up or shut up": after all, it's hard to argue that the Man has got you by the throat when you can't be bribed into returning to your ancestral paradise. (Note correct usage). Second, those with a greedy, short-term mentality are self-selected for emigration, and get the chance to remake their lives. Third, America frees up money for the long-term that may be applied to foreign aid, while cementing its first-world status in the bargain.

--------------
Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Dean Morrison



Posts: 216
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2006,11:57   

GOP

So you plan to offer 'malcontented immigrants' cash bribes to emigrate on a 'voluntary basis'?

Don't be suprised when GOP comes up with Plan 'B' when this fails to have the desired effect.

Perhaps a clearer example of the slippery GOP revealing his racism (remember the definition?) is here:

Quote
'Ghost of Paley' wrote:
In fact, a cursory inspection of modern immigration history quickly identifies the groups that blend most seamlessly into the Western fabric: Europeans, Northeast Asians, and Jews (No surprise, since these groups helped create the Western identity in the first place). Now, a lot of ink has been spilled trying to identify the precise cause of this; but for our purpose the reason is immaterial. I don't care why these groups are so beneficial to Western societies, I just know that they are, and as a pragmatist, I would like to use that fact.


How exactly does GOP plan to determine whether someone is 'European', 'Nort-East Asian' or 'Jewish'.

By country of origin?, if so why didn't he say Israelis for Jews? - or would he be prepared to take someones word for it? If an Ethiopean says he is a Jew is GOP going to welcome him with open arms?

In the UK we have had a large influx of Romanies, Kosovans and Albanians that many in this country would like to see return home. As they are Europeans and therefore alright by GOP then you could solve our 'problem' by giving them all American citizenship. I'm sure our right wing press would thank you you profusely.

It is clear that you wish to discriminate on the grounds of race - (or 'ethnic group' as you put it) - not nationality, or ability and skills.

This alone is enough to define you as a 'racist'.

And are you sure that your fellow citizens would welcome this new influx of immigrants? As I understand it you don't voluntarily let many people in at the moment. I don't know anyone from the UK who has emmigrated to the States - although there are many who have gone to Canada and Australia and other places. Apparantly you let 50,000 people in through a lottery system - a tiny number compared to your population and the size of your country.

http://www.usimmigrationsupport.org/

'Level playing field' my '****'......

  
sir_toejam



Posts: 846
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2006,12:39   

Quote
So you plan to offer 'malcontented immigrants' cash bribes to emigrate on a 'voluntary basis'?


hmm.  what about malcontent naturalized citizens?

i coud use a bribe right about now.

I once read an article in National Review Online (came out about a year ago, IIRC) where one of the contributors was suggesting a plan to offer cash bribes to ship US malcontents (read: all those who disagree with Bush) out of the US.  he suggested Canada, and even offered to contribute some of his own money to such a plan.

I actually wrote him and asked him to put his "money where his mouth is", and send me money for a plane ticket to New Zealand.

never got a reply.

go figure.

  
gregonomic



Posts: 44
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2006,16:50   

sir_toejam.

You've mentioned New Zealand a few times. As a New Zealander, I think I should warn you that New Zealand may not be the idyllic paradise you imagine it to be.

We have problems with racism that are not very different from those in the USA. Our problems have been caused by a couple of centuries of oppression of the original pre-European occupants of New Zealand, the Maori, by the more recent (primarily British) colonists. Now, Maori form a large percentage of those who are impoverished, poorly-educated, welfare-dependent, and/or imprisoned. So we're desperately in need of solutions like the ones we're discussing here.

However, in our last general election (Sept 2005), the National Party (the centre-[verging-on-far-]right party) ran a campaign based largely on racial issues, and proposed policies similar to those of the Republican Party's (tax-cuts for the wealthy, increased privatisation of education and health, reduced social welfare). And they almost won. They got ~39% of the vote; only the Labour Party (centre-right) got more votes (~41%).

We have a proportional representation system in NZ, so Labour was able to form a (somewhat tenuous) coalition with several of the minor parties - we'll see how long it lasts.

My point is that a significant proportion of the New Zealand population is very socially and fiscally conservative and environmentally unfriendly; perhaps not quite as many evangelical Christians as in the USA, but still plenty of fundies.

I'm not trying to alarm you, or to discourage you from moving to New Zealand (you're exactly the kind of person we want to immigrate), but I wasn't sure how much time you've actually spent there, and I wanted you to be aware of what's going on.

  
sir_toejam



Posts: 846
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2006,20:02   

thanks for the alternative perspective.

I hear different things from different folks there of course, and have talked with friends who have spent a lot of time there off and on.  some stressed that there are far more there than here that actually care about controlled growth and protecting environmental resources.

I doubt you would find any government anywhere that isn't dealing with similar issues these days.

bottom line tho, the main difference to me is that NZ is, well, small.  

You guys aren't planning on invading any foreign countries in the near future are you?  

no plans to have your government become an empire?

while a "significant" portion of NZ might be contrary to my sense of taste, it isn't the larger majority, as it has become here in the US.

plus, there appears to be a rapidly increasing interest in Marine research there, and I'd love to get back into doing some research again, especially with a totally different ecosystem than the ones in CA and the tropics I'm familiar with.

I'd love to chat more with ya about it in private; shoot me an email:  fisheyephotos AT hotmail DOT com.

cheers

  
Dean Morrison



Posts: 216
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 22 2006,02:53   

For a look at New Zealand from a different perspective check out the film 'Once were Warriors'.

A very powerful film in its own right. I guess gregonomic could comment on how accurate it is.

The political situation in New Zealand sounds like that in Tasmania where my sister lives. Many communities of 'Greenies' and people seeking alternative lifestyles; and many other communities of  people who have traditionally depended on extracting their living from the environment in a more direct way.

No suprise that they have rather different views about logging primary forest, mining, dam-building and heavy industry; and that this seems connected to their social outlook.

No racial problems to speak of though - we wiped out all the Tasmanians and used convicts for cheap labour.

Australia is a thus a nation of 'malcontents' but they seem to have done rather well for themselves. Don't think many would want to come back to blighty for a few bucks. Their equivalents of the GOP aren't as keen as he is on 'North-East Asians' - and would happily 'send them all back'.

Perhaps they could establish some kind of trade in 'malcontents' - swap you some latinos for some Phillipinos sort of thing?

  
gregonomic



Posts: 44
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 22 2006,04:45   

Dean,

"Once Were Warriors" (the movie) is obviously a dramatised/Hollywood-ised account, but it's not totally divorced from reality. Many Maori are still caught in that cycle of poverty, alcoholism, and domestic violence.

Interestingly, Alan Duff, the author of the book on which the movie was based, is very outspoken on what he thinks are the best ways for Maori to break this cycle. He thinks education is the key, and that Maori have to take it upon themselves to get themsleves, and their children, educated. So maybe you're onto something, Stephen.

He has started programs called "Books for Schools" and "Books in Homes", to encourage corporations to donate to schools in poor areas, to help improve literacy in young Maori.

There is also a lot of anti-Asian sentiment in New Zealand. Paradoxically, our Prime Minister, Helen Clark, who is a very intelligent and moderate leader, appointed the leader of the NZ First Party, Winston Peters, as Minister of Foreign Affairs when she formed the coalition in October. Peters has been one of the most vocal critics of our immigration policies, particularly with regards to Asian immigrants.

sir_toejam,

It's true, because of our size, New Zealand has to rely on diplomacy over force. But the leader of the National Party, Don Brash, has been equivocal over whether he would have joined the "coalition of the willing" had he been in power at the time. It seems clear that he probably would have. Which would have put New Zealand right up there with Australia as one of the prime terrorist targets.

You're right though, it's a good place for marine research, if you can find the money (funding for research in New Zealand is abysmal, hence why I live in the USA).

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 23 2006,06:42   

Mr. Wiggles, you can run but you can't hide. George is gonna getcha!!!!   ;)   :p

--------------
Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
sir_toejam



Posts: 846
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 23 2006,09:25   

Hey pussy!  don't let uncle georgie do your work for you!

Anytime you want to get rid of me faster,all you have to do is send me a check.

I've made the same offer to dozens of "patriotic americans" who have suggested things similar to your own.

none of them seem to be able to put their money where their mouth is.

all of them, like yourself, full of sound and fury.

wrap yourself in the flag if you want.  it won't help you from being a pussy.

pussy :p

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 23 2006,12:13   

Quote
Anytime you want to get rid of me faster,all you have to do is send me a check.

Not when you've got your own slushfund to draw on. Get a cheaper grade of blow, or coeds with with lower test scores. You ain't gettin a dime from me.

--------------
Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
sir_toejam



Posts: 846
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 23 2006,12:29   

like i said....

pussy.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 23 2006,13:09   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Jan. 23 2006,18:13)
Quote
Anytime you want to get rid of me faster,all you have to do is send me a check.

Not when you've got your own slushfund to draw on. Get a cheaper grade of blow, or coeds with with lower test scores. You ain't gettin a dime from me.

Holy shit, who'da thought GoP would have it in him to be this funny??

Getting funding to leave the country in proper style is all the more important now that Canada looks like it's on the verge of going all Republican on us...

So unless you want to move to Montreal and learn French after they split off, it looks like Australia is the best bet.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
gregonomic



Posts: 44
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 23 2006,13:19   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Jan. 23 2006,19<!--emo&:0)
...it looks like Australia is the best bet.

Are you joking??? They re-elected Bush's chum John Howard and the Liberals in the last election. Same sh*t, different pile, if you ask me.

  
sir_toejam



Posts: 846
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 23 2006,19:12   

agreed.



Based on what I've seen, The land "down under" has gone bonzo conservative in the last decade or so. it might overall be even a bit to the right of the US.  

I tried to figure out what might be fueling this trend, but I came up empty.

btw, it's always been my impression that the Canadian goverment is pretty much only for those that live in Montreal; maybe has a bit of influence in Toronto, but that's about it.

has that changed?

seems like the time I spent in Vancouver, it was like they didn't even know they had a government!

  
Dean Morrison



Posts: 216
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 24 2006,01:14   

I seem to remember quite a lot of Ozzies would like to send you Kiwis back Gregonomic. :)

At this rate it's going to be quite busy in the garden of Eden.
Mind you - it would be cool to have a chat with that talking snake - I wonder if he knows anything about string theory?

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 24 2006,09:54   

Sir Wiggles wrote:
Quote
Based on what I've seen, The land "down under" has gone bonzo conservative in the last decade or so. it might overall be even a bit to the right of the US.  

You can always count on liberal programs and Muslim pogroms to deprogram the masses. Thanks, guys, for introducing the Land Down Under to reality therapy. Dipped into your slushfund yet?

--------------
Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Dean Morrison



Posts: 216
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 24 2006,11:52   

Could you translate that into English please GOP.

... and do you multifarious talents actually extend to the 'abitity to  travel outside your own country'?

Travel does 'broaden the mind' you know.

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1754
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2006,01:30   

Quote (Dean Morrison @ Jan. 24 2006,17:52)
Could you translate that into English please GOP.

I believe he is saying.

"Go too far against the majority wishes in any democratic country and the population will swing dramatically in the other direction."

At least I think that is what he means.

  
Flint



Posts: 478
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2006,03:07   

I think he's saying something much simpler:
liberal=evil
disagrees with me=evil
therefore, disagrees with me=liberal

Oh yes, I guess Muslims are also evil.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2006,04:46   

Quote
Oh yes, I guess Muslims are also evil.


Only when they harass others, as is often the case in Australia. Can't a whitebread have a swim when he wants? Or is this another freedom we must surrender?  :D

--------------
Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Dean Morrison



Posts: 216
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2006,06:34   

Quote
Only when they harass others, as is often the case in Australia.


... so I take it you've been there then GOP?

  
gregonomic



Posts: 44
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 25 2006,06:56   

Quote (Dean Morrison @ Jan. 24 2006,07:14)
I seem to remember quite a lot of Ozzies would like to send you Kiwis back Gregonomic.

Yeah, it's true, there are a lot of NZers (including some of my friends and family) making hay in Australia while the sun is shining. I've even considered moving there myself.

BTW, I worded my previous post a little harshly - I was referring mainly to the current government than Australian citizens. I love Australians, especially when they're beating us at cricket and rugby.

  
  167 replies since Jan. 11 2006,09:11 < Next Oldest | Next Newest >  

Pages: (6) < 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 >   


Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic

[ Read the Board Rules ] | [Useful Links] | [Evolving Designs]