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Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2007,09:06    The nugget who wrote this has some good pics on his blog: http://anarchicharmony.blogspot.com/ I like this one - would make a good T-Shirt. This one is funny for many reasons - if only they *would* do experiments... His profile says he's a Graphic Designer. Him AND Troutmac attacking "Darwinism"? Scary! -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

k.e Posts: 1948 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2007,09:06    Quote Quote Even if our universe is the necessary chance result of infinite, many-world iterations of universes, intelligent design would necessarily be a far better model of description and analysis than non-directed models in many scientific ventures, because an ID model would more accurately described the incredibly ordered, improbable patterns of chance outcomes in this particular universe. .... TEH STUPID IT HURTS. I wonder if the "engineers" at UD will see this isn't how it works. You don't design a billion bridges then pick the best one to span the river.. ....incredibly ordered, improbable patterns of chance outcomes.... THE UNIVERSE IS A BANANNA PEEL!!! -------------- The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2007,09:21    Quote (lkeithlu @ Oct. 04 2007,07:05) Pah! That looks like a pile of phone books to me. Don't tell anyone, but it's the complete Left Behind series. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

J-Dog Posts: 4402 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2007,09:25    Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 04 2007,09:21) Quote (lkeithlu @ Oct. 04 2007,07:05) Pah! That looks like a pile of phone books to me. Don't tell anyone, but it's the complete Left Behind series. No way!  It's all of AFDave's posts printed and bound together... -------------- Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10 Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08 UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

dheddle Posts: 545 Joined: Sep. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2007,09:34    I wish I lived in the universe where the resident dheddle chose not to read the MWI post on UD or at least chose not to follow the link to here where I read: Quote What many ID advocates fail to realize is that even this latest, exponential widening (to infinity and beyond!) of the ever-growing "pool of chance" that materialists have drawn from to rationalize the presence of humans and human mind in a material universe, only argues for the validity and usefulness of the intelligent design theory in this universe! Obviously, if everything had to be ordered (let's say by necessity of the existence of infinite variations of universe) in a precise way, and sequenced in a precise way as if there was intelligence ordering it in order to arrive at human existence and mind, then any model that used chance or non-directed probability would ultimately fail and be lacking compared to an ID model that was based on specifically ordered events that were goal-oriented. The MWI argument is that out of infinite non-productive variations of universes we have one (or more, but we're in this one) that by chance is so ordered and specific that it has generated product (intelligent, conscious life forms with incredibly specified, complex biologies that are manifest from coded instructions) that utterly defies random, non-directed modeling, as well as an anthropic universe that utterly defies random, non-directed modeling. Even if our universe is the necessary chance result of infinite, many-world iterations of universes, intelligent design would necessarily be a far better model of description and analysis than non-directed models in many scientific ventures, because an ID model would more accurately describe the incredibly ordered, highly-improbable patterns of supposed "chance" outcomes in this particular universe. Ahh-wreh? This kind of arguing reminds me of one of my favorite short stories, the infinite library of Borges's The Library of Babel. By construction every book was there, including the book that explained the library--but alas also an infinite number of books that credibly refuted the true explanation. -------------- Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

k.e Posts: 1948 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2007,09:58    Quote This kind of arguing reminds me of one of my favorite short stories, the infinite library of Borges's The Library of Babel. By construction every book was there, including the book that explained the library--but alas also an infinite number of books that credibly refuted the true explanation. Woa!!!!...obviously less than 10^^120 ...right? -------------- The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

JohnW Posts: 3217 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2007,10:27    Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Oct. 04 2007,04:16) Quote (Richardthughes @ Oct. 04 2007,01:56) ARTICLE_ID=57974[/URL] The author packs a lot into a short paragraph:       Quote Maybe it's because for so many years the logical alternative to Darwin's theory of evolution, which is grounded on such foundations as random selection and survival of the fittest, has been disregarded and ridiculed by the scientific community. And intelligent design, as it is called, presumes the existence of God, or at least an outside intelligence influencing life, according to a critic of the university. Would that be Dr Dr Critic-of-the-university? -------------- Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

Zachriel Posts: 2723 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2007,10:48    Quote scordova: I’m so glad to meet others who like Hofstadter’s book! It is a stealth ID classic, imho. From Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by Douglas R. Hofstadter Quote Anteater: Ant colonies have been subjected to the rigors of evolution for billions of years. A few mechanisms were selected for, and most were selected against. The end result was a set of mechanisms which make ant colonies work as we have been describing. If you could watch the whole process as a movie - running billions or so times faster than life, of course - the emergence of various mechanism would be seen as natural responses to external pressures, just as bubbles in boiling water are natural responses to an external heat source. I don't suppose you see "meaning" and "purpose" in boling water - or do you? -------------- You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

Rob Posts: 154 Joined: July 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2007,12:07    Quote (Zachriel @ Oct. 04 2007,10:48)   Quote scordova: I’m so glad to meet others who like Hofstadter’s book! It is a stealth ID classic, imho. So is Origin of the Species, donchaknow. And I love how Sal criticizes Hofstadter for not defining intelligence, and then turns around and says that intelligence should be undefined. And why does Sal think that Dembski's philosobabble helps the ID cause?  Dembski says that in defining intelligence, we gain no substantive insight.  He then proceeds to define intelligence:  "We could therefore define intelligence as the capacity for rational or purposive or deliberate or premeditated choice."  But, as Elsberry has pointed out, Dembski's paradigm characterizes designers as manifestly irrational.  With Dembski's gift for doublespeak, he should have gone into politics. -------------- -- Rob, the fartist formerly known as 2ndclass

Rob Posts: 154 Joined: July 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2007,12:22    Newsflash from StephenB:  "Secular" does not mean non-religious -- it means anyone who disagrees with StephenB's particular brand of religion or science or politics or history.   Quote Religion Prof: Here is my ten-part test for a secular professor. (10 points for every yes) 1) Evolution is a demonstrable fact, but the handiwork of God is undetectable. 2) a. The absolute separation of Church and state protects reasonable people from crazy Chrisitan fundamentalists and upstart critics of evolution. 3) Immanual Kant was the greatest philospher because he taught us how to be skeptical. 4) The Christians initiated all the wars with the Muslims 5) To speak about killing the unborn, especially in polite company, is far worse than doing it. 6) We should worry less about sexual immoralty and more about violence. 7) Jesus Christ did not physically rise from the dead, but we can all experience our own sense of “rebirth.” 8) All religions are more or less equal in value. 9) We should call illegal aliens “undocumented workers.” 10) The pope is a tyrant, but Stalin was minunderstood. -------------- -- Rob, the fartist formerly known as 2ndclass

guthrie Posts: 696 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2007,12:27    I didn't know Heddle was into General Semantics? :p

Zachriel Posts: 2723 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2007,12:38    Quote (Rob @ Oct. 04 2007,12:07)       Quote (Zachriel @ Oct. 04 2007,10:48)           Quote scordova: I’m so glad to meet others who like Hofstadter’s book! It is a stealth ID classic, imho. So is Origin of the Species, donchaknow. How could scordova have read Gödel, Escher, Bach and come to that conclusion? The whole book is about emergent phenomena. You couldn't ask for a more colorful description of how complexity emerges from evolutionary processes than the Anteater's Fugue. And if the Anteater knows anything, he knows ants! -------------- You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

oldmanintheskydidntdoit Posts: 4999 Joined: July 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2007,13:39    Dembski Writes:     Quote Here’s an interesting conference with some top-notch speakers on a topic central to ID. I wish I could make it. Hmm, sounds exciting? Maybe it's some of that often promised "research". Could it be?   Quote Advances in single molecule methods have resulted in the exciting, burgeoning field of single molecule biophysics. These approaches have been exceptionally important in studies on molecular motors, the biological machines essential for providing force and movement in living organisms. Leaders in the field will present studies that reveal new behaviors and molecular details that are obscured by traditional ensemble-based approaches Ah, of course, as BornAgain77 will shortly tell us, ID predicited this. And 12 other things too. That makes 13? I wonder will BornAgain go to 13 on his list? Or will he jump to 14, the lilly livered so and so. I think I see why Dembski is interested in this. It's something to do with the bold part above. Hmm. No doubt whatever is said or done there ID will declare it a victory. And I strongly suspect that when Dembski says:   Quote I wish I could make it. He really means     Quote I wish I was invited OK, OK, so anybody can go for $75 Spoilsports :) -------------- I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies". FTK if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand Gordon Mullings

Altabin Posts: 308 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2007,14:17    OK, so Sal quotemines the recently deceased, writing:   Quote In contrast to Darwinian evolution, an intellectual evolution is guided by an “intelligent mind,”…. and, as others have pointed out, he is boldly upbraided by larrycranston:   Quote Mr. Cordova, Did you mean to cut off the quote in the original post? I think the full text is “In contrast to Darwinian evolution, an intellectual evolution is guided by an ‘intelligent mind,’ that is, by humans who analyze advantages and disadvantages of previous generation of solutions and use the developed understanding in creating next generation of solutions.” It sounds like he is talking here about something other than the Designer in the broader context of ID. Can you clarify? Sal's reply is one for the ages (emphasis added):   Quote   Quote Did you mean to cut off the quote in the original post? I certainly did because it highlighted the difference between mindless Darwinism and intelligent design. Human designs are also instances of intelligent design, or to use his phrase, intelligent evolutionary design….. Michalski may or may not believe Darwinism in biology can create biological complexity. His writings express the assumed mainstream beliefs, but does he really believe the world is a product of mindless processes? But even granting he might believe Darwinism to be true, the irony would be that he did he not try to get machines to emulate brainless Darwinian processes, but rather he tried to get machines to emulate an intelligent mind. His actions speak louder than words…. Wow.  I mean, wow.  "You're right, there is nothing to suggest Michalski supported ID.  That's why I had to butcher the quote; otherwise, it wouldn't have made my point." --------------

J-Dog Posts: 4402 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2007,15:02    Tip of the hat to PZ - He catches Billy D writing about angels... Says Dr. Dr. Dembski:  "Why is it important to know about angels? Why is it important to know about rocks and plants and animals? It's important because all of these are aspects of reality that impinge on us. The problem with the secular intelligentsia is that they deny those aspects of reality that are inconvenient to their world-picture. And since the intelligentsia are by definition intelligent (though rarely wise), they are able to rationalize away what they find inconvenient. This is what Bishop Sheen was getting at with the previous quote when he referred to the intelligentsia rationalizing evil, and this what Williams is so successful at unmasking in the intelligentsia's rejection of angels. There exists an invisible world that is more real and weighty than our secular imaginations can fathom. I commend this book as a way of retraining our imaginations about that reality." http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/10/little_imaginary_beings.php Crazy as a loon.... FTK - what doYOU say about angels? -------------- Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10 Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08 UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

Bob O'H Posts: 2564 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2007,15:18    Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Oct. 03 2007,12:51) Quote (Richardthughes @ Oct. 03 2007,12:39) Quote Only intelligently designed processes can detect error. Sometimes, creatures aren't formed perfectly and so they die. Sometimes, creatures don't have the right attributes to cope with their environment, so they die. Is death an "intelligently designed process that can detect error"? Would that make the NS "intelligently designed" in RMNS? Bob, go on ask em that over at UD, dare ya! Sorry, I'm hiding in Estonia at the moment, building beautiful bridges. Bob -------------- It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

JohnW Posts: 3217 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2007,15:37    Quote (J-Dog @ Oct. 04 2007,13:02) Tip of the hat to PZ - He catches Billy D writing about angels... Says Dr. Dr. Dembski:  "Why is it important to know about angels? Why is it important to know about rocks and plants and animals? It's important because all of these are aspects of reality that impinge on us. The problem with the secular intelligentsia is that they deny those aspects of reality that are inconvenient to their world-picture. And since the intelligentsia are by definition intelligent (though rarely wise), they are able to rationalize away what they find inconvenient. This is what Bishop Sheen was getting at with the previous quote when he referred to the intelligentsia rationalizing evil, and this what Williams is so successful at unmasking in the intelligentsia's rejection of angels. There exists an invisible world that is more real and weighty than our secular imaginations can fathom. I commend this book as a way of retraining our imaginations about that reality." http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/10/little_imaginary_beings.php Crazy as a loon.... FTK - what doYOU say about angels? I just changed my position on the "Dembski: cynical huckster or barking mad?" question. -------------- Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

Tom Ames Posts: 238 Joined: Dec. 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2007,15:43    Quote (JohnW @ Oct. 04 2007,13:37) I just changed my position on the "Dembski: cynical huckster or barking mad?" question. Not mutually exclusive categories, obviously. -------------- -Tom Ames

N.Wells Posts: 1836 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2007,16:09    Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Oct. 04 2007,13:39) Dembski Writes:             Quote Here’s an interesting conference with some top-notch speakers on a topic central to ID. I wish I could make it. And I strongly suspect that when Dembski says:           Quote I wish I could make it. He really means             Quote I wish I was invited From http://www.nyas.org/events....3A00+AM       Quote Advances in single molecule methods have resulted in the exciting, burgeoning field of single molecule biophysics. These approaches have been exceptionally important in studies on molecular motors, the biological machines essential for providing force and movement in living organisms. Leaders in the field will present studies that reveal new behaviors and molecular details that are obscured by traditional ensemble-based approaches. I think I've found his problem:- "Leaders in the field will present studies....".  He's 0 for 3 right there, being neither a leader nor in the field, and not having any research to present.   But then, what can he expect?  An affiliation like Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary just doesn't reach out and scream "scientific expert" at people.  My advice would be twofold here.  First, he might consider getting some sort of connection, no matter how humble, with an institution a little higher up in the feeding chain. Somewhere like Baylor, perhaps (I think that's reasonably local for him).  Universities are usually happy to make arrangements like this for visiting scholars or experts and notables in the area (barring unusual instances of toxic personality flaws, and the like, of course).  Also, if he could just free up three weeks or so, that could well be enough time to do some productive research and pull an abstract together that could be submitted to such a meeting.

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2007,16:15    Quote Peter Williams' The Case for Angels is about…the theological rift between a Christian intelligentsia that increasingly regards angels only as figurative or literary devices, and the great mass of Christians who thankfully still regard them as real (a fact confirmed by popular polls, as Williams notes in this book). This rift was brought home to me at a conference I helped organize at Baylor University some years back. The conference was entitled 'The Nature of Nature' and focused on whether nature is self-contained or points beyond itself. The activity of angels in the world would clearly constitute on way nature points beyond itself. --William Dembski All Science So Far! http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/10/little_imaginary_beings.php edit: curses! beaten again. Edited by stevestory on Oct. 04 2007,17:16

Kristine Posts: 3061 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2007,17:00    Quote (J-Dog @ Oct. 04 2007,14:02) Tip of the hat to PZ - He catches Billy D writing about angels... Says Dr. Dr. Dembski:  "Why is it important to know about angels? Why is it important to know about rocks and plants and animals? It's important because all of these are aspects of reality that impinge on us. The problem with the secular intelligentsia is that they deny those aspects of reality that are inconvenient to their world-picture. And since the intelligentsia are by definition intelligent (though rarely wise), they are able to rationalize away what they find inconvenient. This is what Bishop Sheen was getting at with the previous quote when he referred to the intelligentsia rationalizing evil, and this what Williams is so successful at unmasking in the intelligentsia's rejection of angels. There exists an invisible world that is more real and weighty than our secular imaginations can fathom. I commend this book as a way of retraining our imaginations about that reality." http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/10/little_imaginary_beings.php Crazy as a loon.... FTK - what doYOU say about angels? Now, now, J-Dog. "What if you find out there really" are angels? "How would you feel then?" Hmmmmmm? Hmmm...mmm...mmmm...BWA HA HA...! Clap your hands for Tinkerbell, guys! -------------- Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip? AtBC Poet Laureate "I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive "Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2007,17:45    Er, wasn't Tinkerbell a fairy, not an angel?

Gunthernacus Posts: 235 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2007,18:02    Quote (Henry J @ Oct. 04 2007,17:45) Er, wasn't Tinkerbell a fairy, not an angel? ;) Don't get FTK started on that again. -------------- Given that we are all descended from Adam and Eve...genetic defects as a result of intra-family marriage would not begin to crop up until after the first few dozen generations. - Dr. Hugh Ross

k.e Posts: 1948 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2007,18:18    Quote (Henry J @ Oct. 05 2007,01:45) Er, wasn't Tinkerbell a fairy, not an angel? ;) OH VERY CLEVER, HOMO FAIRY!!!! ANGELS ARE JUST GROWN UP FAIRIES. -------------- The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

BWE Posts: 1902 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2007,19:10    Quote (Zachriel @ Oct. 04 2007,12:38)   Quote (Rob @ Oct. 04 2007,12:07)           Quote (Zachriel @ Oct. 04 2007,10:48)             Quote scordova: I’m so glad to meet others who like Hofstadter’s book! It is a stealth ID classic, imho. So is Origin of the Species, donchaknow. How could scordova have read Gödel, Escher, Bach and come to that conclusion? The whole book is about emergent phenomena. You couldn't ask for a more colorful description of how complexity emerges from evolutionary processes than the Anteater's Fugue. And if the Anteater knows anything, he knows ants! Ahhmmmmphfft! The book quite specifically and eloquently explains exactly the opposite. Oohh. it hurts. I really enjoyed that book. Now I'm gonna have to trash sal. -------------- Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered When wished on the morning star Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it Look what it's done so far The Daily Wingnut

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2007,20:35    Dembski gets excited about Digital Foresics. Its ID supportive, apparently.. http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/digital-forensics/ but he doesn't quote this bit: http://www.nytimes.com/2007....mc=eta1 Quote I think like a forger. I spend a lot of time in Photoshop making digital forgeries to learn the tools and techniques a forger uses. We’ll make a composite photograph of two people and ask, “How do you manipulate this photograph to make it compelling?” By working backwards, we learn the forger’s techniques and how to detect them. Emphasis mine. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

CCP Posts: 25 Joined: Oct. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2007,20:43    Quote This is what Bishop Sheen was getting at with the previous quote when he referred to the intelligentsia rationalizing evil, and this what Williams is so successful at unmasking in the intelligentsia's rejection of angels. Hey, when did they make Martin Sheen a Bishop? ('cause it can't be Charlie)

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2007,22:35    Ugh. Having discovered that regardless of supposed rules, the nurses won't kick you out immediately at 9 pm, I've been spending even more time at the hospital. I feel like you guys are having all the fun without me. Please continue. I'm glad we're not in the early days of the thread when I felt like I needed to give it the occasional boost to keep it going. My friend's being transferred to Ohio on Monday and my free time will be back to normal, but I think I might run out of gas before then.

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2007,22:37    Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 04 2007,22:35) Ugh. Having discovered that regardless of supposed rules, the nurses won't kick you out immediately at 9 pm, I've been spending even more time at the hospital. I feel like you guys are having all the fun without me. Please continue. I'm glad we're not in the early days of the thread when I felt like I needed to give it the occasional boost to keep it going. My friend's being transferred to Ohio on Monday and my free time will be back to normal, but I think I might run out of gas before then. Good luck, chief. Regards to friend. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Glenn Branch Posts: 19 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2007,00:29    Quote Hey, when did they make Martin Sheen a Bishop? ('cause it can't be Charlie) It's Fulton Sheen, whom Ramón Gerardo Antonio Estévez so admired that he borrowed his surname for his stage name, Martin Sheen. Ah, trivia. By the way, how do you put the name/timestamp of the person you're quoting next to the Quote tag?

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