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  Topic: Is the clergy letter project a waste of time ?, Anti-evolution/religion< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 20 2008,17:37   

I noticed this on Ham's blog today, criticising the United Methodists for supporting the clergy letter project:


http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/aroundt....growing

   
Quote
This illustrates the sad state of the church. In doing this, this denomination has shaken its fist at God and told the Creator of the Universe they don’t believe what He had written in his Word in Genesis.


   
Quote
If you look at the list of clergy who signed this letter, you will see that many are from denominations that deny a number of basics of the Christian faith—quite a number of them could not be described as “Christian”as the Bible would describe Christian.


As a Christian who has no problem with conventional science (and by that I mean evolutionary science, regardless of the subject) I wonder what exactly this project is going to achieve in the long run. Unless large numbers of evangelical Christians/Christian denominations come out in support then it really is a dead duck, so to speak. Note Ham's comments with regard to the fact that he doesn't accept many of those denominations that have supported the letter as really being Christian at all.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. I think we are on the verge af a major split within the Protestant church over their support of mainstream science, say along the lines of the reformation i.e. when the main Protestant denominations split from the Roman Catholic church, e.g. Martin Luther etc. It really does appear that YEC's have a completely different way of looking at Christianity than other Christians. I think the differences are so great now that a major split is inevitable.

Next year is a very important one with regard to Darwin. It will be interesting to see if any evangelical leaders in the US lend their support to this project. I very much doubt it somehow.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4886
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 20 2008,17:54   

Quote

Unless large numbers of evangelical Christians/Christian denominations come out in support then it really is a dead duck, so to speak.


Major disagreement here. We know from the vocal religious antievolutionists that they don't like evolution; the Clergy Letter Project's mission is to up the profile of Christian believers who do not have a problem with what science discovers. The Clergy Letter Project was never intended to "convert" those already committed to the antievolution camp.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4886
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 20 2008,18:34   

In other words, the Clergy Letter Project has already succeeded. Large numbers of churches have joined in Evolution Sunday and Evolution Weekend activities. The DI has felt sufficiently threatened to have begun publishing books to try to diminish or dismiss the CLP and other Darwin Day activities.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 20 2008,18:41   

But are there any leading evangelicals that support the clergy letter project Wesley ? In the UK only Steve Chalk has come out in support of evolution.

I've noticed that leading evangelicals in the US e.g. John MacArther and R.C. Sproul for example, are both firmly in the YEC camp. Josh McDowell's son has visited the creation museum so that obviously puts McDowell Snr. there as well. These people are not just influential in the US but are quite well known over here, particularly in NI. I've heard McDowell speak a number of years ago at the Crescent church in Belfast. He also addressed the Presbyterian church in Ireland's general assembly recently as well.  

Who are the evangelical leaders in the US that support evolution ?

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4886
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 20 2008,18:46   

Perhaps repetition will help:

We know from the vocal religious antievolutionists that they don't like evolution; the Clergy Letter Project's mission is to up the profile of Christian believers who do not have a problem with what science discovers.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 20 2008,19:16   

If Ham doesn't like it, that means it's all good.  However, even if Ham took my advice and took a long walk off a short pier tomorrow, The Clergy Letter is still a good idea, IMO.  It's good to have friends, in the struggle against YEC  and IDC stupidity.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
American Saddlebred



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(Permalink) Posted: July 20 2008,19:26   

The superiority complex is so obvious in "his" statement...AiG now "is" the Creation Museum...Carl who?

   
bystander



Posts: 301
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 20 2008,20:39   

I think that it is good. It weakens the evolution == atheism link. The fact is that you have DOL writing "No True Christian" posts shows that it is working.

  
Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 21 2008,10:53   

Quote
Perhaps repetition will help:

We know from the vocal religious antievolutionists that they don't like evolution; the Clergy Letter Project's mission is to up the profile of Christian believers who do not have a problem with what science discovers.


Then I'll repeat my question again Wesley. Who are the leading conservitive evangelicals that support this ? In the past evangelicals such as Charles Hodge, B.B. Warfield and C.S.Lewis have all accepted evolution (and thus have supported science). This doesn't seem to be happening at the moment. In my opinion (don't get me wrong, I do support the project) for the clergy letter project to succeed at least some leading evangelical conservitives need to come out and endorse it. The people I've mentioned are highly respected in evangelical circles, not just in the US but throughout the world. As an example, Adrian Rodgers was open minded on the subject until Ham got to him. What is it with Ham that seems to persuade so many preachers, who in other respects are good speakers , to accept such nonsense without question ? And what about some of the other well known speakers in evangelical circles e.g. Joyce Meyer (very popular in NI), David Jeremiah, the Graham's (both likely YEC), and Charles Stanley. These are the type of evangelicals that need to come out and say they accept evolution for the clergy letter project to work. Unfortunately they aren't doing this.

it doesn't  help either when Atheists such as Jason Rosenhouse or P.Z. Meyers start attacking Christians that accept evolution (Theistic Evolutionists) from the sidelines. In one newspaper article that I've read recently PZ Meyers stated that Christians who were theistic evolutionists were in his opinion "wishy washy" Christians. When asked " what about professor Ken Miller" he (PZ Meyers) replied that "Ken Miller is a wishy washy Catholic". I'm not sure if that statement was tongue and cheek or not but it sure doesn't help the project gain credibility in Evangelical circles.

  
KimvdLinde



Posts: 12
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 21 2008,11:08   

Flip it around. What if we would give up on everything that is not supported by well-known evangelicals? Should we just give up? Is that what you are suggesting?

  
Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 21 2008,11:19   

Quote
Flip it around. What if we would give up on everything that is not supported by well-known evangelicals? Should we just give up? Is that what you are suggesting?


Not at all. All that I am saying (as someone who moves in evangelical circles) that these are the type of speakers that evangelical Christians listen to. They're not going to pay any attention to the Pope, Ken Miller, Francis Collins, or any other liberal minded Christian leader for that matter. C.S. Lewis is still widely read and quoted in evangelical circles here. I'm not sure who the modern day equivelent is.

  
Stephen Elliott



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Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 21 2008,16:52   

I do not think that the clergy letter is a waste of time. The very least that it does is provide evidence against the creationist argument that evolution=atheism.

It gives an answer to IDC claims that all evolution supporters are atheists.

The very existence of the clergy letter shows that at least some of the claims of people such a FtK are ridiculous.

  
Jim_Wynne



Posts: 1198
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 22 2008,17:20   

Quote (Peter Henderson @ July 21 2008,11:19)
Not at all. All that I am saying (as someone who moves in evangelical circles) that these are the type of speakers that evangelical Christians listen to. They're not going to pay any attention to the Pope, Ken Miller, Francis Collins, or any other liberal minded Christian leader for that matter. C.S. Lewis is still widely read and quoted in evangelical circles here. I'm not sure who the modern day equivelent is.

No one is trying to convince the unconvinceable. There are a lot of religious fence-sitters out there who are being told by the fundies that most of science is anti-religious. Having a substantial number of clergy people refuting the contention is aimed at them.

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Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

  
bystander



Posts: 301
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 22 2008,19:31   

Quote (Jim_Wynne @ July 23 2008,05:20)
Quote (Peter Henderson @ July 21 2008,11:19)
Not at all. All that I am saying (as someone who moves in evangelical circles) that these are the type of speakers that evangelical Christians listen to. They're not going to pay any attention to the Pope, Ken Miller, Francis Collins, or any other liberal minded Christian leader for that matter. C.S. Lewis is still widely read and quoted in evangelical circles here. I'm not sure who the modern day equivelent is.

No one is trying to convince the unconvinceable. There are a lot of religious fence-sitters out there who are being told by the fundies that most of science is anti-religious. Having a substantial number of clergy people refuting the contention is aimed at them.

Yes, I agree that it is one of those "at the margins things" and while people like Ftk will never be convinced she'll end up more isolated.

It's like homophobia, it is hard to maintain when somebody you know is gay and open about it. As the homophobia disappears more and more people will come out of the closet causing more homophobia to disappear. A virtual circle.

  
Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 11 2008,15:34   

And this is precisly the sort of thing that just makes Christians who support mainstream science (evolutionary science) look downright stupid in the face of YEC's:

http://scienceblogs.com/evoluti....hp#more

Which is why I wonder what the point is of evolution Sunday and the clergy letter project.
:angry:

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4886
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 11 2008,23:22   

Quote (Peter Henderson @ Aug. 11 2008,15:34)
And this is precisly the sort of thing that just makes Christians who support mainstream science (evolutionary science) look downright stupid in the face of YEC's:

http://scienceblogs.com/evoluti....hp#more

Which is why I wonder what the point is of evolution Sunday and the clergy letter project.
:angry:

There seems to be a chasm in between the premises and the conclusion.

It's not the first time, either.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 12 2008,06:08   

From the article that Jason linked to

Quote
When Salon interviewed me about my new book, "Saving Darwin," I suggested that science doesn't know everything, that there might be a reality beyond science, and that religion might be about God and not merely about the human quest for a nonexistent God. These remarks got me condemned to whatever hell Myers believes in.


I would say that most (if not all) evangelical Christians would agree with Karl Giberson on this statement. So what exactly is the point that Jason Rosenhouse and PZ Myers are trying to make here ? Atheists criticise evangelical Christians for accepting the YEC nonsense and yet, at the slightest oppertunity they attack those who accept evolution. Then they have the audacity to promote "evolution Sunday" or the clergy letter project (do Jason Rosenhouse and PZ Meyers support the clergy letter project and evolution Sunday ?).

As I have said, certain Atheists just make evangelical Christians look silly in the face of YECs (and by the way, I have a great admiration for both Rosenhouse and Meyers, it's just their spiritual beliefs that I disagree with)

Giberson is correct.  Science doesn't explain everything. i.e. the whys and wherefores of life. As an example, UTV are covering the 10th anniverseray of the Omagh bomb this week. In one interview yesterday evening, a survivor told her story and the fact that she was standing with two of her friends when the bomb went off. Both her friends died and yet she lived. She put this down to divine providence. I think if I had lived through such an experience I'd probably feel the same.

http://www3.u.tv/index.asp?showId=1303029

  
Jim_Wynne



Posts: 1198
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 12 2008,08:13   

Quote (Peter Henderson @ Aug. 12 2008,06:08)
In one interview yesterday evening, a survivor told her story and the fact that she was standing with two of her friends when the bomb went off. Both her friends died and yet she lived. She put this down to divine providence. I think if I had lived through such an experience I'd probably feel the same.

You'd be left trying to figure out why "divine providence" blew your friends to smithereens (by an act of omission, at the very least).  Were they somehow privileged?

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Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 12 2008,09:23   

who are the atheists that denounce logical positivism or mereological reduction?

PZ and Rosenhouse bore me on this topic.  I'm not even sure what the proposition really is.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Peter Henderson



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Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 12 2008,12:09   

Quote
You'd be left trying to figure out why "divine providence" blew your friends to smithereens (by an act of omission, at the very least).  Were they somehow privileged


She quoted the book of Ecclesiastes Jim:

http://www.carm.org/sermons/Ecc_3_1-15.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHvf20Y6eoM

Surely an idea that has been used in many's a horror movie:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0195714/

and TV series:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0348913/

On that particular day it wasn't her time.

  
Jim_Wynne



Posts: 1198
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 12 2008,12:36   

Quote (Peter Henderson @ Aug. 12 2008,12:09)
Quote
You'd be left trying to figure out why "divine providence" blew your friends to smithereens (by an act of omission, at the very least).  Were they somehow privileged


She quoted the book of Ecclesiastes Jim:

http://www.carm.org/sermons/Ecc_3_1-15.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHvf20Y6eoM

Surely an idea that has been used in many's a horror movie:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0195714/

and TV series:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0348913/

On that particular day it wasn't her time.

So should she be thankful, or disappointed?

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Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

  
Peter Henderson



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Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 12 2008,17:19   

Quote
So should she be thankful, or disappointed?


She was very thankful in the interview Jim.

Even though she had lost a leg as a result of the bomb and had a very long recovery period she now cherished each day of of life. A very moving story I thought.

  
Jim_Wynne



Posts: 1198
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 12 2008,17:32   

Quote (Peter Henderson @ Aug. 12 2008,17:19)
Quote
So should she be thankful, or disappointed?


She was very thankful in the interview Jim.

Even though she had lost a leg as a result of the bomb and had a very long recovery period she now cherished each day of of life. A very moving story I thought.

Very moving. She is, in effect, cherishing the fact that jebus blew her friends up instead of her.  Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die.

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Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

  
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 12 2008,18:32   

Quote (Peter Henderson @ Aug. 12 2008,06:08)
Giberson is correct.  Science doesn't explain everything. i.e. the whys and wherefores of life.

I would first ask myself the question if there even IS a "why" and "wherefor" answer. I'm not making the assumption that an answer to that question even exists. I do not see a shred of evidence that supports that assumption, that there is a "Why?" and "What for/purpose?" answer. Hence, I do not feel like I should look for an answer to that question, since I'm skeptical about the assumption that the question is answerable.
 
Quote (Jim_Wynne @ Aug. 12 2008,17:32)
Very moving. She is, in effect, cherishing the fact that jebus blew her friends up instead of her.  Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die.

That is indeed something that keeps amazing me. When I see people thanking God about surving some disaster or not getting hurt, my very first reaction is "And what about the people who díd die/got hurt, hmm?". Something else is that, for example in medical reality series, you see patients thanking God for letting them survive. That just doesn't amaze me, that makes me slightly angry: the doctors used every shred of expertise they gained to save you, and whó are you praising?? I really do not understand.

  
Erasmus, FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 12 2008,19:35   

well in a zero sum game there are no winners.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 18 2008,04:31   

Quote
She is, in effect, cherishing the fact that jebus blew her friends up instead of her


She is doing nothing of the sort Jim. Most Christians think like this i.e. they are thankful that they were "spared". I'm sure there will be many similar type statements and sentiments on the 10th anniversary of  9/11. Surely you don't think Jim, that those who survived that one are cherishing the fact that so many of their friends were lost   ??????

     
Quote
That is indeed something that keeps amazing me. When I see people thanking God about surving some disaster or not getting hurt, my very first reaction is "And what about the people who díd die/got hurt, hmm?". Something else is that, for example in medical reality series, you see patients thanking God for letting them survive. That just doesn't amaze me, that makes me slightly angry: the doctors used every shred of expertise they gained to save you, and whó are you praising?? I really do not understand.


And it is precisely these type of statements that makes me uncomfortable with the clergy letter project and evolution Sunday. This is the way Christians think Erasmus. I know. As someone with an incurable disease I have medical science to thank for being able to live a normal life, by and large. Even though I wasn't "cured" I still have God to thank for a lot of things. Most Christians will quote Romans 8:28 when bad things happen to them.  

And why are evangelical churches being urged by some atheists to celebrate the achievmants of a man who was at best an agnostic   ?????? I agree whole heartedly that the Christian church can support science but this needs to come from other evangelicals, not Atheists or Agnostics.  

Just to re-emphasise the fact that it hasn't caught on with the evangelical church in the UK, only two churches in England and Four ??? in Wales have signed up for next years event:

http://www.butler.edu/clergyproject/rel_evolution_weekend_2009.htm#ENG

     
Quote
England

Bury St Edmunds Unitarian Congregation
Cambridge, England
Martin A. Gienke, Lay Leader

Essex Unitarian Church
London, England
The Rev. Sarah Tinker


     
Quote
Wales

St Cynwyl's
The Church in Wales
Caio, Carmarthenshire, Wales
The Rev. Joanna Penberthy

St Sawyl's
The Church in Wales
Llansawel, Carmarthenshire, Wales
The Rev. Joanna Penberthy

St Michael's
The Church in Wales
Talley, Carmarthenshire, Wales
The Rev. Joanna Penberthy

Cwmgwendraeth Rectorial Parish
Upper Tumble, Llanelli - Carmarthenshire, Wales
The Rev. Dr. Marc Rowlands, Team Vicar


Note that two of the "vicars" are women and three of the churches in Wales are being pastored by the one person.

None of the big evangelical churches (e.g. All Souls) have bothered with it and it certainly doesn't surprise me. I can't see any of the churches in NI participating, even in the mainstream denominations.

  
Assassinator



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 18 2008,07:24   

Quote (Peter Henderson @ Aug. 18 2008,04:31)
She is doing nothing of the sort Jim. Most Christians think like this i.e. they are thankful that they were "spared". I'm sure there will be many similar type statements and sentiments on the 10th anniversary of  9/11. Surely you don't think Jim, that those who survived that one are cherishing the fact that so many of their friends were lost   ??????

What he wanted to say, is that while she is thanking for not dying in the blast, the sáme blast killed lots of other people. It's kinda selfish to thank an apperantly all-mighty and all-good being for surving something that killed lots of other people. Afterall, that being wasn't apperantly as good for the one's who díd die.
 
Quote
Even though I wasn't "cured" I still have God to thank for a lot of things.

I alwayse wonder: what? I hear that often, that people have enough to thank for, but I never hear exactly what.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4886
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 18 2008,08:06   

Quote (Peter Henderson @ Aug. 18 2008,04:31)

And why are evangelical churches being urged by some atheists to celebrate the achievmants of a man who was at best an agnostic   ?????? I agree whole heartedly that the Christian church can support science but this needs to come from other evangelicals, not Atheists or Agnostics.


Not sure what "atheists or agnostics" have to do with the Clergy Letter Project and its Evolution Weekend event. Perhaps you are confusing and conflating something else with it? It would be best to stick to the topic here.
 
 
Quote (Peter Henderson @ Aug. 18 2008,04:31)

Just to re-emphasise the fact that it hasn't caught on with the evangelical church in the UK, only two churches in England and Four ??? in Wales have signed up for next years event:

http://www.butler.edu/clergyproject/rel_evolution_weekend_2009.htm#ENG

         
Quote
England

Bury St Edmunds Unitarian Congregation
Cambridge, England
Martin A. Gienke, Lay Leader

Essex Unitarian Church
London, England
The Rev. Sarah Tinker


         
Quote
Wales

St Cynwyl's
The Church in Wales
Caio, Carmarthenshire, Wales
The Rev. Joanna Penberthy

St Sawyl's
The Church in Wales
Llansawel, Carmarthenshire, Wales
The Rev. Joanna Penberthy

St Michael's
The Church in Wales
Talley, Carmarthenshire, Wales
The Rev. Joanna Penberthy

Cwmgwendraeth Rectorial Parish
Upper Tumble, Llanelli - Carmarthenshire, Wales
The Rev. Dr. Marc Rowlands, Team Vicar


Note that two of the "vicars" are women and three of the churches in Wales are being pastored by the one person.

None of the big evangelical churches (e.g. All Souls) have bothered with it and it certainly doesn't surprise me. I can't see any of the churches in NI participating, even in the mainstream denominations.


Well, in the UK there is no "separation of church and state". Much of the impetus for educating Christians here in the USA on the issue of evolutionary science simply doesn't apply to the UK.

Is "All Souls" a denomination that explicitly adopts biblical literalism? If so, one would not expect the Clergy Letter Project to have any relevance to them. I can't see much that speaks to any issue concerning evolution or creationism on their webpage. They seem to mostly be concerned about suppressing homosexuality.

The CLP is not an evangelical tool aimed at converting people who have already committed themselves to extreme positions to change their minds and cannot be said to be lacking because it doesn't do that.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 18 2008,08:22   

Quote
I alwayse wonder: what? I hear that often, that people have enough to thank for, but I never hear exactly what.


My symptoms were very similar to cancer. I feared the worst when I began to pass blood. Although my diagnosis wasn't great (IBD), I was relieved that cancer was ruled out. But I still have a lot things to be thankful for. Like the work of Professor Bryan Brooke:


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_19981003/ai_n14195331

which changed the lives of millions of people. Without his pioneering work many would be debilitated:

 
Quote
TO THOSE suffering from ulcerative colitis and inflammatory bowel disease, the name Bryan Brooke is remembered with gratitude


 
Quote
Brooke became Reader in Surgery at Birmingham University, working at the Queen Elizabeth Hospital. It was here that he devised the brilliantly simple Brooke eversion ileostomy - a bowel opening on the skin of the stomach, to which a bag could be attached. This revolutionised the treatment of ulcerative colitis. The vast majority of the thousands world-wide who have had this operation are living near-normal lives.


and it is for this reason that I despise Ken Ham (and the rest of the YECs) for devoting so much time, energy , and money in their efforts to return science to the 18th century. It gauls me to think of the millions of dollars that have been spent on Ham's museum, and the number of intelligent individuals that have been duped by his nonsense. I cried when I read Brooke's obituary. I can honestly say I'll probably not feel the same way about Ham etc.

  
Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 18 2008,08:38   

Quote
Is "All Souls" a denomination that explicitly adopts biblical literalism


All Souls is a well attended evangelical Anglican church in London Wesley. In my opinion it's the sort of church that should be paricipating in this .It's been prone to YECism  though:

http://www.allsouls.org/ascm....EE70B99

But from what I can gather, there's been some opposition to it.

Several obscure churches that have a few dozen members are not going to break any delf with a majority of evangelicals I'm afraid.

  
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