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skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 27 2007,01:56    that's not exactly what I'm saying, it's more along the lines that decisions or inclinations one way or the other may be set at an early age without any real appeal to rationality.  I can certainly look back at my youth and never see a point at which I ever doubted the existence of God.  Everything since then has only confirmed that belief in my own mind but how much of that is objective or subjective.  Had my initial my inclination been towards no belief in God would my position be just as strong in my own mind?  I can't answer that but it seems to make sense.  The outlier would be those that believe one way and "convert" at some point in adulthood, those might be the cases we need to look at.

Hawk Posts: 3 Joined: Dec. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 27 2007,02:39    Quote (skeptic @ Dec. 27 2007,01:56) that's not exactly what I'm saying, it's more along the lines that decisions or inclinations one way or the other may be set at an early age without any real appeal to rationality.  I can certainly look back at my youth and never see a point at which I ever doubted the existence of God.  Everything since then has only confirmed that belief in my own mind but how much of that is objective or subjective.  Had my initial my inclination been towards no belief in God would my position be just as strong in my own mind?  I can't answer that but it seems to make sense.  The outlier would be those that believe one way and "convert" at some point in adulthood, those might be the cases we need to look at. i must say that the childs brain will pretty much automatically beleive what it is told between the ages of 0~8. this is why children who's parents are religios are something like 30 times more likely to beleive in thier parents own faith. (correct me if i'm wrong) it is why adults who have grown up to believe in something will almost always defend their position even if shown insurmountable evidence, and not even waver. I chose to be an atheist after several years of agnosticism and in that time i was not presented with a singal shred of evidence that a god exists, so i chose logic over faith (as in religious faith). Despite this i still respect many religions (specifically Islam and buddhism) for their quest for knowledge, while i don't beleive in god i do ebelive it is possible for one to beleive in god and still beleive in evolution. -------------- If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down. But I can find out no such case. Charles Darwin Vox populi, vox Dei

Assassinator Posts: 479 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 27 2007,05:51    You're a product of your envoirment skeptic. It's not suprising that you find everything else a confirmation of your beleive. That beleive is imbedded in your mind, in your personality. It's nothing wierd that you fit new things into the image of the world you had already. This may be the same if you're raised with the beleive a god does not exist. Myself, I haven't been raised with a god at all. I don't even know if my parents beleive in a god or not. I have been in contact with religion though, my grandma is a christian and I went to a youth-church from evangelicals just because it was fun (I had a good time there, very interesting). I don't beleive in a god though, but neither do I beleive that a god does not exist.

Albatrossity2 Posts: 2780 Joined: Mar. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 27 2007,07:05    It is also possible that what Skeptic sees as an "emotional investment" is actually an emotional response to having others tell you that they know what you believe better than you do (e.g., telling you that atheism is a religion). Most people take it poorly when their position is twisted around by someone else, particularly if that someone else has shown little or no inclination to listen to what you actually are saying... -------------- Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind Has been obligated from the beginning To create an ordered universe As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.                         - Pattiann Rogers

Reciprocating Bill Posts: 4265 Joined: Oct. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 27 2007,08:27    Even given his modification, there is something to what Skeptic says that is applicable to beliefs of all stripes (although that is a far cry from establishing that "atheism is a religion"). Many here have asserted that their agnosticism or atheism is strictly a reasoned position happily amenable to modification given evidence. I am somewhat of a "skeptic" when it comes to such claims, because (IMHO) they are not psychologically realistic, and don't acknowledge the dimensions of cognitive consistency and community immersion and allegiance that are very important in most belief fixation. Skeptic is also right to suggest that he went through life assimilating those experiences that "confirmed" his initial belief, that he may have assimilated other "facts" into this system of belief if he had a different starting point, and that this process also typifies other beliefs (again, none of which makes atheism a religion). That's a fact he should revisit, as well as suggest that others revisit. [added in edit] That said, I would still distinguish between the psychological and social processes through which beliefs are fixated and the quality of discourse that is mounted within and between communities. -------------- Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be. "The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." - David Foster Wallace "Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down." - Barry Arrington

GCT Posts: 1001 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 27 2007,08:29    Quote (skeptic @ Dec. 26 2007,23:04) I'm going to go way out on a limb on this one as I have no formal education in psychology, other than required electives, but couldn't it be argued that most if not all foundational beliefs or ideas are arrived at via an emotional route.  This route is what reinforces the belief to the point that someone can view their life in it's context.  Think back to how you yourself came to this conclusion.  Was it a single moment with a legal pad and two columns or was it a step-by-step journey built upon personal experiences?  Again, this is all just speculation on my part but maybe the simple answer is that theists are only imagining what they themselves know.  Most peoples' faith is that journey over time based upon their personal experiences and maybe we just assume that atheists go through the same process, or anti-process so to speak, lol. Thank you for your answer.  I asked for your opinion and you gave it. A follow up question though:  why do you equate a step-by-step journey based on personal experiences with the "emotional route"?  I'm not sure that necessarily must be the case that they are equal.  My "personal experience" could have been taking a look at the claims of various religions and finding no evidence for them, which would be a wholly rational thing to do and would lead to the rational conclusion that I do not believe in those religions.   Quote that's not exactly what I'm saying, it's more along the lines that decisions or inclinations one way or the other may be set at an early age without any real appeal to rationality.  I can certainly look back at my youth and never see a point at which I ever doubted the existence of God.  Everything since then has only confirmed that belief in my own mind but how much of that is objective or subjective.  Had my initial my inclination been towards no belief in God would my position be just as strong in my own mind?  I can't answer that but it seems to make sense.  The outlier would be those that believe one way and "convert" at some point in adulthood, those might be the cases we need to look at. Most people grow up to be the religion of their parents.  The only exception to that rule is generally atheists, at least in this country of overwhelming religiosity.  Most atheists (that I've met online and elsewhere in this country) grew up in a home with theistic parents and have turned away from the religion they learned as a child. You might be interested in this: Sullivan's admission

bystander Posts: 301 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 27 2007,16:37    My journey was more an intellectual journey but I have read where for some it is a hugely emotional experience. IIDB has a large number of deconversion stories.

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 27 2007,16:38    It's probably just the imagery I'm using when thinking of an emotional response.  You certainly can have a lifelong rational pursuit of knowledge but I'm referring more to the incorporation of experience which can not exclude the emotional component of that experience.  I agree with Bill and that if we look deep down everything we think or believe that has any significance has an emotional component to it.  As a bad example, think of music.  We think we judge the quality of music based upon it's actual quality but many times it has nothing to do with the song itself.  We like or dislike some music based solely upon what was going on at the time we heard it.  I will confess that there is some real crappy music floating around in my head but I love it and I can blame it totally on my hormones and some hot memories.

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 27 2007,16:53    Part 3 is up: http://beastrabban.wordpress.com/2007/12/27/atheism-as-religion-3/ -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Mr_Christopher Posts: 1238 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 27 2007,17:10    I was raised believing in god and remained that way until my late 20s.  Drop kicking my faith in god was a very conscious thing for me.  It was the most liberating (intellectually and emotionally) thing I've ever done in my life. As far as "converting" to atheism goes, I don't think atheists convert.  it's more like they see through the whole faith charade and realize it's all make believe.  In that light faith has no real value to a person of reasonable emotional strength.   What good would belief in a god do for me?  I don't need a sky pixie to tell me I'm ok, nor do I need him to love me.  Nor do I need special favors to be granted.  Any adult is capable of being immune to low self-esteem so what's the point?  Any adult is capable of creating a slice of happiness for themselvs, regardless of their lot in life.  So, again, what's the point?  There is nothing that could happen to me that I could not reasonably face and deal with without the aid of an imaginary friend.  So what's the point?  What possible good would a belief in a god do for me? And a lack of faith does not constitute a faith.  If compelling evidence for a god was presented I'd have no problem switching gears and accepting reality.  But so far no one in the history of the world has put forth any compelling evidence for the existance of a god.   People who suggest atheism is a religion are simply ignorant. edit: One more thing, when I adopted an atheist outlook I did not run out and  murder or rape anyone.  In fact quite the opposite.  Knowing that no one goes to heaven and there is no afterlife has made me appreciate life even more than previously.  We're here for a very brief amount of time, after that we're all worm food,  so we should make the best of it kind of thing. -------------- Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 27 2007,18:03    I'm going to let Christopher's post speak for itself but if I was a shrink I think I'd have a field day.

GCT Posts: 1001 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 27 2007,18:13    Quote (skeptic @ Dec. 27 2007,19:03) I'm going to let Christopher's post speak for itself but if I was a shrink I think I'd have a field day. Sorry, but that won't cut it.  If you have an argument to make, please make it.

Reciprocating Bill Posts: 4265 Joined: Oct. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 27 2007,18:58    Quote (Mr_Christopher @ Dec. 27 2007,18:10) One more thing, when I adopted an atheist outlook I did not run out and  murder or rape anyone.  In fact quite the opposite. Whoa, for a moment there I thought you'd been raped and murdered. -------------- Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be. "The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." - David Foster Wallace "Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down." - Barry Arrington

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 27 2007,19:18    Again, this is not my field but this paragraph: Quote What good would belief in a god do for me?  I don't need a sky pixie to tell me I'm ok, nor do I need him to love me.  Nor do I need special favors to be granted.  Any adult is capable of being immune to low self-esteem so what's the point?  Any adult is capable of creating a slice of happiness for themselvs, regardless of their lot in life.  So, again, what's the point?  There is nothing that could happen to me that I could not reasonably face and deal with without the aid of an imaginary friend.  So what's the point?  What possible good would a belief in a god do for me? This is not a reasoned-based response but a completely emotionally-based response, IMO.  Not the tone, but the underlying content, does that make sense?

Reciprocating Bill Posts: 4265 Joined: Oct. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 27 2007,19:22    Quote (skeptic @ Dec. 27 2007,17:38)  I agree with Bill and that if we look deep down everything we think or believe that has any significance has an emotional component to it.   Bear in mind, however, that it does not at all follow that "atheism is a religion." Some people have a strong emotional investment in football. Others have a similarly strong investment in opera. It does not follow that Don Giovanni is an NFL game. -------------- Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be. "The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." - David Foster Wallace "Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down." - Barry Arrington

J-Dog Posts: 4402 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 27 2007,19:44    Quote (skeptic @ Dec. 27 2007,19:18) Again, this is not my field but this paragraph: Quote What good would belief in a god do for me?  I don't need a sky pixie to tell me I'm ok, nor do I need him to love me.  Nor do I need special favors to be granted.  Any adult is capable of being immune to low self-esteem so what's the point?  Any adult is capable of creating a slice of happiness for themselvs, regardless of their lot in life.  So, again, what's the point?  There is nothing that could happen to me that I could not reasonably face and deal with without the aid of an imaginary friend.  So what's the point?  What possible good would a belief in a god do for me? This is not a reasoned-based response but a completely emotionally-based response, IMO.  Not the tone, but the underlying content, does that make sense? WYF??!! Skeptic, I think the "emotion" that you refer to is in your imagination! -------------- Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10 Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08 UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

rhmc Posts: 340 Joined: Dec. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 27 2007,19:45    Quote (Mr_Christopher @ Dec. 27 2007,18:10) As far as "converting" to atheism goes, I don't think atheists convert.  it's more like they see through the whole faith charade and realize it's all make believe.  In that light faith has no real value to a person of reasonable emotional strength.   and there you have it. i was raised in a very religous household but it all seemed so fake. it was such a relief at the age of 10 or so to find a missionary's kid who had no belief either.

Whois Posts: 1 Joined: Dec. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 27 2007,21:38    Hello all, Can an atheism be a religion? It is quite an interesting question. It could easily be turned into the following question; Is any belief of any subject a religion? Is any marriage a marriage? does every breath support life? If one takes this attitude than there are no defining borders of the meaning of the words that can be applied to any condition. This goes against the fact, that we need duality in order to experience any condition. The law of duality is quite simple. Without the presence of the opposite, that which is, is not. Without the presence of The Creator there would be no creation and without the presence of religion atheism would not exist. So, if two primates are married by whosoever things they have the right to perform such a union, Would or should this marriage be enforced or recognized? Religion deals with entities which are recognized to have superior power and unerstanding, as well as, intelligence. Atheist has no such beliefs, hence cannot be considered to be religious in any way. To address evolution, undeniably evolution exists. In the words of The Most Magnificent All There Is, the only thing that is constant in the universe is change it self. By definition, evolution is all about change. Also by definition, evolution cannot be creative. "Nothing," cannot be affected by evolution, there is nothing that can change. There is a lot more that can be written about this subject not based on the religion but on pure physics of the change. Ed.

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 27 2007,21:52    Quote (skeptic @ Dec. 27 2007,19:18) Again, this is not my field but this paragraph: Quote What good would belief in a god do for me?  I don't need a sky pixie to tell me I'm ok, nor do I need him to love me.  Nor do I need special favors to be granted.  Any adult is capable of being immune to low self-esteem so what's the point?  Any adult is capable of creating a slice of happiness for themselvs, regardless of their lot in life.  So, again, what's the point?  There is nothing that could happen to me that I could not reasonably face and deal with without the aid of an imaginary friend.  So what's the point?  What possible good would a belief in a god do for me? This is not a reasoned-based response but a completely emotionally-based response, IMO.  Not the tone, but the underlying content, does that make sense? No. But remove all the "don't"s then read it.... That's you, that is. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Annyday Posts: 583 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 27 2007,22:05    Quote (Whois @ Dec. 27 2007,21:38) Hello all, Can an atheism be a religion? It is quite an interesting question. It could easily be turned into the following question; Is any belief of any subject a religion? Is any marriage a marriage? does every breath support life? If one takes this attitude than there are no defining borders of the meaning of the words that can be applied to any condition. This goes against the fact, that we need duality in order to experience any condition. The law of duality is quite simple. Without the presence of the opposite, that which is, is not. Without the presence of The Creator there would be no creation and without the presence of religion atheism would not exist. So, if two primates are married by whosoever things they have the right to perform such a union, Would or should this marriage be enforced or recognized? Religion deals with entities which are recognized to have superior power and unerstanding, as well as, intelligence. Atheist has no such beliefs, hence cannot be considered to be religious in any way. To address evolution, undeniably evolution exists. In the words of The Most Magnificent All There Is, the only thing that is constant in the universe is change it self. By definition, evolution is all about change. Also by definition, evolution cannot be creative. "Nothing," cannot be affected by evolution, there is nothing that can change. There is a lot more that can be written about this subject not based on the religion but on pure physics of the change. Ed. I don't even know if I disagreee with you or not. -------------- "ALL eight of the "nature" miracles of Jesus could have been accomplished via the electroweak quantum tunneling mechanism. For example, walking on water could be accomplished by directing a neutrino beam created just below Jesus' feet downward." - Frank Tipler, ISCID fellow

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 27 2007,22:11    Not exactly me, but yes,a religious person could make the same don't-excluded statement. and Bill is right, the emotional basis of any belief or idea does not necessarily constitute a religion, I'm just offering a possible explanation as to why theists make that assumption extrapolating from their own thought processes. I'm just curious, or maybe this is exactly the point, why would an individual be relieved to find their non-belief validated or  be emotionally liberated to finally "drop-kick" faith?  As an example, I don't believe time is a physical dimension.  For me time is meaningless, merely a human construct attempts to elevate the interval from event to event to some unreal quantity.  I know this runs contrary to most interpretations of time but nonetheless for me it means nothing.  If someday I find another person that believes the very same thing I'm not going to feel relieved or liberated or anything.  maybe that's not a good analogy but do you see what I'm getting at?

swbarnes2 Posts: 78 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 27 2007,23:16    Quote (skeptic @ Dec. 27 2007,19:18) This is not a reasoned-based response but a completely emotionally-based response, IMO.  Not the tone, but the underlying content, does that make sense? It's literally impossible to make a point against you, isn't it?  Shifting the goal posts will do that, but it's also very easy for trained people to spot. First, when atheists explain to you the rational reason why they choose atheism, you claim that those reasons are fake, because no one makes decisions that way, they use their irrational emotions, instead. Then someone describes how he emotionally, he had no need for God, and all of a sudden, you are complaining that the poster shouldn't be describing his emotional feelings regarding atheism, he should only be talking about the rational ones. Do you see the problem here?

Bob O'H Posts: 2564 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 28 2007,00:25    Quote That's you, that is. Is that a Mary Whitehouse Experience reference sneaked in there? Bob -------------- It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

IanBrown_101 Posts: 927 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 28 2007,07:18    Quote (Bob O'H @ Dec. 28 2007,06:25) Quote That's you, that is. Is that a Mary Whitehouse Experience reference sneaked in there? Bob I do believe it is. Good on you Rich. On a totally different topic, does anyone else think that skeptic, when presented by, well, anything, plays an intricate game of mental tetris to assimilate the information without letting himself be wrong? (Not that you ARE always wrong skeptic, I'm just saying when you are...) -------------- I'm not the fastest or the baddest or the fatest. You NEVER seem to address the fact that the grand majority of people supporting Darwinism in these on line forums and blogs are atheists. That doesn't seem to bother you guys in the least. - FtK Roddenberry is my God.

Assassinator Posts: 479 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 28 2007,07:47    Quote On a totally different topic, does anyone else think that skeptic, when presented by, well, anything, plays an intricate game of mental tetris to assimilate the information without letting himself be wrong? I think that's completly natural, and that lots of people do that without noticing. The amount of how much they do that differs a lot.

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 28 2007,09:19    Quote (IanBrown_101 @ Dec. 28 2007,07:18) Quote (Bob O'H @ Dec. 28 2007,06:25) Quote That's you, that is. Is that a Mary Whitehouse Experience reference sneaked in there? Bob I do believe it is. Good on you Rich. Tis twue. Another meme for the board! -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Bob O'H Posts: 2564 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 28 2007,09:26    Quote (Richardthughes @ Dec. 28 2007,09:19) Tis twue. Another meme for the board! Homo -------------- It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 28 2007,10:07    Quote (Bob O'H @ Dec. 28 2007,09:26) Quote (Richardthughes @ Dec. 28 2007,09:19) Tis twue. Another meme for the board! Homo THEY CALL YOU BOB OH BECAUSE OF YOU'RE OH FACE THAT YOU DO DURING YOU'RE SPECIAL TIME WITH YOU'RE WELL DRESSED LISPY FREINDS WHO CUT HAIR. edit: HAR HAR THAT IS YOU. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 28 2007,10:24    Actually, Bob, it's a nice square size, just right for an avatar... -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Mr_Christopher Posts: 1238 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 28 2007,11:01    Quote (skeptic @ Dec. 27 2007,19:18) Again, this is not my field but this paragraph:   Quote What good would belief in a god do for me?  I don't need a sky pixie to tell me I'm ok, nor do I need him to love me.  Nor do I need special favors to be granted.  Any adult is capable of being immune to low self-esteem so what's the point?  Any adult is capable of creating a slice of happiness for themselvs, regardless of their lot in life.  So, again, what's the point?  There is nothing that could happen to me that I could not reasonably face and deal with without the aid of an imaginary friend.  So what's the point?  What possible good would a belief in a god do for me? This is not a reasoned-based response but a completely emotionally-based response, IMO.  Not the tone, but the underlying content, does that make sense? No your comments don't make sense. Let me put it to you this way - people have faith for a reason.  I cannot find any reason, intellectual, emotional, or psychologicl reason for me to have faith.  No reason what so ever.  Having faith would not contribute anything positive in my life.  it would contribute nothing positive so why do it. That was my point, what was yours? edit - furthermore faith = bondage.  Drop kick faith = liberation.  Chew on that one and get back to me.   But chance are you don't get it and won't get it.  No worries though, I'm not trying to sell it. -------------- Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

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