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  Topic: The DI's latest martyr:  Guillermo Gonzalez< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Jason Spaceman



Posts: 163
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 13 2007,01:37   

Quote
Intelligent design scientist denied tenure at Iowa State

Leading proponent of theory targeted by atheists, linked to Taliban, in 2005

Posted: May 12, 2007
6:45 p.m. Eastern

© 2007 WorldNetDaily.com

A leading proponent of intelligent design, who was targeted by atheist professors in 2005, has been denied tenure at Iowa State University.

Assistant professor of astronomy and physics Guillermo Gonzalez, co-author of "The Privileged Planet: How Our Place in the Cosmos Is Designed for Discovery," was one of three members of the ISU faculty denied promotion or tenure of the 66 considered during the past academic year, reported the Ames, Iowa, Tribune.

"I was surprised to hear that my tenure was denied at any level, but I was disappointed that the president at the end denied me," Gonzalez said yesterday.

In 2005, three ISU faculty members drafted a statement and petition against intelligent design in the science curriculum that collected 120 signatures.

Claims for intelligent design, said the ISU faculty statement "are premised on (1) the arbitrary selection of features claimed to be engineered by a designer; (2) unverifiable conclusions about the wishes and desires of that designer; and (3) an abandonment by science of methodological naturalism.

"Whether one believes in a creator or not, views regarding a supernatural creator are, by their very nature, claims of religious faith, and so not within the scope or abilities of science. We, therefore, urge all faculty members to uphold the integrity of our university of 'science and technology,' convey to students and the general public the importance of methodological naturalism in science, and reject efforts to portray intelligent design as science."

Similar petitions were published by faculty at the University of Iowa and the University of Northern Iowa.


Read it here.

   
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 13 2007,07:12   

Now he can go join Dr Dr Bill at the Podunk Academy of God, or whatever.

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
lkeithlu



Posts: 321
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 13 2007,07:28   

Check this out about Baylor's Beckwith leaving the Evangelicals and becoming a catholic (again)

http://www.abpnews.com/2139.article

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 13 2007,07:45   

Quote (lkeithlu @ May 13 2007,07:28)
Check this out about Baylor's Beckwith leaving the Evangelicals and becoming a catholic (again)

http://www.abpnews.com/2139.article

Maybe the church will pay to send him to law school.


(snicker)  (giggle)

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 13 2007,12:32   

Quote (lkeithlu @ May 13 2007,07:28)
Check this out about Baylor's Beckwith leaving the Evangelicals and becoming a catholic (again)

http://www.abpnews.com/2139.article

As an aside, from that same site, has anyone noticed that 'pro-family' seems to mean nothing more than 'anti-gay'?

Yep, fag bashing should solve all the problems of families everywhere.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 13 2007,14:47   

Refusing to grant tenure to Guillermo Gonzalez is clearly ideologically/politically motivated. He has at least 55 publications in his field according to ISI Web of Knowledge, which is more than his most vociferous critics have accomplished.

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Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 13 2007,15:07   

Quote
Refusing to grant tenure to Guillermo Gonzalez is clearly ideologically/politically motivated.


well, if the university has violated its own tenure rules in rejecting gonzales, surely gonzales can sue them in court.

oh wait, gonzales is not pursuing the matter?

hmm.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Glen Davidson



Posts: 1046
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 13 2007,15:52   

While I'm not expert on Gonzalez's qualifications, my impression is that he should have been given tenure.  

Yes, I know, he doesn't sound very convincing on Privileged Planet, but his other ideas are taken seriously in other fora, and he may be right that the best place to look for really old earth rocks is the moon.

I'd give him some trouble over the Privileged Planet nonsense, of course, as it's all too close to the marvel that the cat has holes in its skin where his eyes happen to be.  It's like the psychics, retrofitting the facts to be their "predictions", marveling that we can scientifically understand the universe, even though it took a good 4 billion + years for life to get to the stage of scientific understanding.

But he does good work, and I can't see denying him tenure over his manifestly politico-religious positions, at least unless I've seen that the latter affects his actual work.  I suppose I'd have to hold my nose to vote tenure for him, yet I think that I would.  Now if someone has evidence that his pseudoscientific notions do affect either his teaching or his work, I'd be likely to change my mind.

Glen D

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http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 13 2007,16:03   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 13 2007,14:47)
Refusing to grant tenure to Guillermo Gonzalez is clearly ideologically/politically motivated.

'Clearly'? So why were the other two professors denied tenure?

Should someone who thinks Noah's Ark carved the Grand Canyon be given tenure at a geology department?

As anyone who's been around academia any length of time can tell you, people have been denied tenure for far less.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 13 2007,16:57   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ May 13 2007,16:03)

Quote
'Clearly'?


That's what I wrote.

Quote
So why were the other two professors denied tenure?


Dunno.

Quote

Should someone who thinks Noah's Ark carved the Grand Canyon be given tenure at a geology department?


Possibly, but in any event that is far removed from Guillermo Gonzalez's "cosmological ID."

Quote

As anyone who's been around academia any length of time can tell you, people have been denied tenure for far less.


And people have been granted tenure for far less.

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Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 13 2007,17:07   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 13 2007,14:47)
Refusing to grant tenure to Guillermo Gonzalez is clearly ideologically/politically motivated. He has at least 55 publications in his field according to ISI Web of Knowledge, which is more than his most vociferous critics have accomplished.

Alas, universities are under no obligation to provide people with secure pulpit from which to preach their religious opinions.

Let him go to the Texas School of Seminary or whatever, with Dr Dr Bill.

(shrug)

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Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 13 2007,17:10   

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ May 13 2007,17:07)
Alas, universities are under no obligation to provide people with secure pulpit from which to preach their religious opinions.

Let him go to the Texas School of Seminary or whatever, with Dr Dr Bill.

(shrug)

Lenny, where are your 55+ publications in astronomy? Anyway, he did not introduce his avocational cosmological ID ideas into his classroom.

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Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 13 2007,17:13   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 13 2007,17:10)
Lenny, where are your 55+ publications in astronomy?

The same place as yours.  (shrug)

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Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 13 2007,17:14   

I think it's long past the time when nutters should be treated like. . .. well . . . like nutters.

I see no reason to give tenure to nutters.

And the nutters can weep about that all they like.

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Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 13 2007,17:23   

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ May 13 2007,17:14)
I think it's long past the time when nutters should be treated like. . .. well . . . like nutters.

I am glad you finally came to that realization. When will you start taking lithium bicarbonate?

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Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 13 2007,17:26   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 13 2007,17:23)
Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ May 13 2007,17:14)
I think it's long past the time when nutters should be treated like. . .. well . . . like nutters.

I am glad you finally came to that realization. When will you start taking lithium bicarbonate?

Wow BobTard you're the funniest thing since..erm...eh...a burning orphanage.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 13 2007,17:30   

Quote (Richardthughes @ May 13 2007,17:26)
Wow BobTard you're the funniest thing since..erm...eh...a burning orphanage.

It's a gift.

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Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
guthrie



Posts: 696
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 13 2007,17:34   

I don't think Lennie suffers from manic-depressive illness.  Rather, a uni-polar dislike of nutters, but since thats not listed as a mental illness, there's nothing he needs to be on.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 13 2007,17:44   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 13 2007,17:30)
Quote (Richardthughes @ May 13 2007,17:26)
Wow BobTard you're the funniest thing since..erm...eh...a burning orphanage.

It's a gift.

I hope you kept the receipt.



*jumps into ROFLcopter to escape the LOLocaust*

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 13 2007,17:44   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 13 2007,17:23)
Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ May 13 2007,17:14)
I think it's long past the time when nutters should be treated like. . .. well . . . like nutters.

I am glad you finally came to that realization. When will you start taking lithium bicarbonate?

Har har har. That was, well, clever beyond measure, Robert.  Take you a long time to think that one up, did it?

Ya know, my mommy wears combat boots, too.

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
lkeithlu



Posts: 321
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 13 2007,19:09   

So, what was the reason he was denied? I thought that universities in general did not make this public, as it can get in the way of a person applying for a tenure track position elsewhere. Do we know for certain it was for his ID work? Tenure is based on many criteria, including scholarship, teaching effectiveness, and service to one's institution and the greater community.

  
stevestory



Posts: 10399
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 13 2007,19:15   

The UDers are firing off emails based on the notion Gonzales was denied tenure for supporting ID. It might be true, but it's stupid to assume.

   
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 13 2007,19:24   

Quote (stevestory @ May 13 2007,19:15)
The UDers are firing off emails

Yeah, THAT will help.  (snicker)  (giggle)

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
Cedric Katesby



Posts: 55
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 13 2007,20:40   

"I am glad you finally came to that realization. When will you start taking lithium bicarbonate? "

Wow.  Think of the wit it would take to come up with a comment like that.   :O

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 13 2007,20:48   

Quote (Cedric Katesby @ May 13 2007,20:40)
"I am glad you finally came to that realization. When will you start taking lithium bicarbonate? "

Wow.  Think of the wit it would take to come up with a comment like that.   :O

adn too spell it "right", to!!!

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 13 2007,23:23   

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ May 13 2007,17:13)
 
Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 13 2007,17:10)
Lenny, where are your 55+ publications in astronomy?

The same place as yours.  (shrug)

I find it hilarious that a person who's published nothing (Robert) regularly insults anti-ID people for not publishing enough. It takes a certain really profound lack of self-awareness to do that, which is, of course, why Robert does it well.

Sure people are free to support ID and to think that the Grand Canyon is a few thousand years old. And university faculties are free to reject such beliefs as junk science. Universities are not obliged to have affirmative action programs whereby they have to admit people teaching religiously-based 'science' into their faculties.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2007,00:22   

Quote

And people have been granted tenure for far less.


as if you would know.

Quote
Wow.  Think of the wit it would take to come up with a comment like that.   :O


yes, I often refer to him as the witless wonder when he gets going on a posting binge, as he is wont to do from time to time.

and of course, everyone reminds him why he had a tardilicious award named in his honor.

I have yet to see him ever contribute an original thought to any forum.

btw there, bobbo, Lenny HAS actually recently published a book.

...and you?

thought so.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2007,02:24   

{Chemist hand goes up}

Erm, and unless I'm mistaken (which is possible) it is lithium carbonate NOT the bicarbonate (i.e. lithium hydrogen carbonate) which is used for treatment of bipolar disorder.

Louis

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Bye.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2007,09:13   

Quote (Louis @ May 14 2007,02:24)
{Chemist hand goes up}

Erm, and unless I'm mistaken (which is possible) it is lithium carbonate NOT the bicarbonate (i.e. lithium hydrogen carbonate) which is used for treatment of bipolar disorder.

Louis

Now, how exactly would you know that?  ;)

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Louis



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2007,09:14   

I erm work in the erm pharmaceutical industry. It's not like some sort of secret you know.

Louis

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Bye.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2007,09:15   

Quote (Louis @ May 14 2007,09:14)
I erm work in the erm pharmaceutical industry. It's not like some sort of secret you know.

Louis

Likely story.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2007,09:22   

But I'm not bipolar, I'm brilliant

Louis

Added in edit: No I'm not I'm worthless.

Added in further edit: Sod that, I'm wonderful. Quick to the credit card spending spree!

Added in yet further edit: Oh woe is me etc, I've over done it, I'm a complete failure.

{I'm not taking the micky out of BPD, it's a terrible disease, ask Stephen Fry}

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Bye.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2007,11:18   

Quote (Louis @ May 14 2007,09:22)
But I'm not bipolar, I'm brilliant

Louis

Added in edit: No I'm not I'm worthless.

Added in further edit: Sod that, I'm wonderful. Quick to the credit card spending spree!

Added in yet further edit: Oh woe is me etc, I've over done it, I'm a complete failure.

{I'm not taking the micky out of BPD, it's a terrible disease, ask Stephen Fry}

Louis  - IMO, Post Of The Week (UP!) - course it isonly Monday (down)...

I would have made it a Monthly Award Nomination, if it had a rugby reference in it...

Go Cats!

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
CCP



Posts: 25
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2007,12:22   

Nobody who is spouting off their opinion on this (or any other) specific tenure case knows what they are talking about. He's got pubs? Then it wasn't about that. ISU is a research-intensive institution and my guess is he did not obtain sufficient external funding. Yes, that's enough--it happened to me! Alternatively, the very fact that petitions against him have been circulated is enough of a reason to deny him based on collegiality criteria. Even if an institution has hard & fast black & white criteria for tenure, there's always a little weaseling room in the wording to permit the denial of total assholes etc.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2007,13:31   

If you haven't already done so, see Ed's blog for a good discussion of this, with some very apropos remarks about just how arbitrary the awarding or not rewarding of tenure often/usually is.

Even Heddle says some sensible things:

 
Quote
One comment: as Sean Carrol's experience points out, tenure always, or almost always, has a political component, and that very well may have played a part on Gonzalez's case. We may never know, because there is enough linguistic wiggle-room in any tenure decision and committee report (And believe me I know, I once served on and chaired the university faculty committee that was the stage before the provost in tenure decisions) to obfuscate political motivations by committee members. A committee member who wants to derail a candidacy need only say things like "I don't think this candidate's track record on acquiring grants is promising enough to award tenure" even when he really means "I don't like this guy" for whatever reason.

And in a sense the ID community, as it always does, will suffer for the ineptitude of its leadership. For given that they see conspiracies with greater ease than John Birchers saw commies, they have desensitized everyone to any future claim of ID discrimination. With Gonzalez, who is by leaps and bounds the best of the marquis IDers, it will be hard for them to champion his case simply because they cry wolf too often.


Tenure is a brutal process, no one denies that. Whether it's a Grand Atheist Conspiracy, as many IDers automatically assume (and as ROB thinks is 'clear'), is a different question.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Gunthernacus



Posts: 235
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2007,13:48   

Quote
Dr. Dr. Dembski wrote:
If I ever became the president of a university (per impossibile), I would dissolve the biology department and divide the faculty with tenure that I couldn’t get rid of into two new departments: those who know engineering and how it applies to biological systems would be assigned to the new “Department of Biological Engineering”; the rest, and that includes the evolutionists, would be consigned to the new “Department of Nature Appreciation” (didn’t Darwin think of himself as a naturalist?).


This whole IDist business of righteous indignation about Gonzalez is a mixture of unwitting projection and bitter jealousy.

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Given that we are all descended from Adam and Eve...genetic defects as a result of intra-family marriage would not begin to crop up until after the first few dozen generations. - Dr. Hugh Ross

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2007,13:54   

Quote
Dr. Dr. Dembski wrote:
If I ever became the president of a university


Bob Jones U might be looking.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2007,14:03   

Thank you DaveTard for the link - Here is my email

'president@iastate.edu'

Dr. Geoffroy,

Thank you for leading a university that has to courage to stand up for the separation of church and state and deny tenure to an idiot like Guillermo Gonzalez. “Privileged Planet” my gluteus maximus!  He made Iowa State a laughing stock – now maybe he can seek tenure at a more suitable environment… like Liberty University.

Thanks again for the truly “intelligent” decision!

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
BWE



Posts: 1898
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2007,14:09   

Quote (guthrie @ May 13 2007,17:34)
I don't think Lennie suffers from manic-depressive illness.  Rather, a uni-polar dislike of nutters, but since thats not listed as a mental illness, there's nothing he needs to be on.

Need - as in Maslow? Because,...

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Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4902
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2007,15:00   

Quote

And people have been granted tenure for far less.


And, as Sean Carroll's case shows, people have been denied tenure for far more.

I think that the remaining perturbation, that of people having been granted tenure for far more, need not be explored.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2007,15:55   

Quote (Richardthughes @ May 13 2007,17:44)
I hope you kept the receipt.



*jumps into ROFLcopter to escape the LOLocaust*

Good comeback.

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Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2007,15:57   

Quote (J-Dog @ May 14 2007,14:03)
Thank you DaveTard for the link - Here is my email

'president@iastate.edu'

Dr. Geoffroy,

Thank you for leading a university that has to courage to stand up for the separation of church and state and deny tenure to an idiot like Guillermo Gonzalez. “Privileged Planet” my gluteus maximus!  He made Iowa State a laughing stock – now maybe he can seek tenure at a more suitable environment… like Liberty University.

Thanks again for the truly “intelligent” decision!

Thank you for demonstrating the lack of native intelligence of the opposition.

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Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2007,15:58   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ May 14 2007,15:00)
Quote

And people have been granted tenure for far less.


And, as Sean Carroll's case shows, people have been denied tenure for far more.

I think that the remaining perturbation, that of people having been granted tenure for far more, need not be explored.

Was he denied tenure?

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Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2007,16:02   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ May 13 2007,23:23)
I find it hilarious that a person who's published nothing (Robert) regularly insults anti-ID people for not publishing enough.

I am surrounded by people who have impressive publication records in mathematics and statistics, and they are my measuring stick.

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Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2007,16:03   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 14 2007,16:02)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ May 13 2007,23:23)
I find it hilarious that a person who's published nothing (Robert) regularly insults anti-ID people for not publishing enough.

I am surrounded by people who have impressive publication records in mathematics and statistics, and they are my measuring stick.

My point remains unchanged.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2007,16:19   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 14 2007,16:02)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ May 13 2007,23:23)
I find it hilarious that a person who's published nothing (Robert) regularly insults anti-ID people for not publishing enough.

I am surrounded by people who have impressive publication records in mathematics and statistics, and they are my measuring stick.

Can you see over their ankles?  A lot of Lilliputians can be dangerous, but just one is merely sad.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2007,16:22   

Quote
Even Heddle says some sensible things:


Arden,

No.

I'm sorry we just don't say things like that. Go and stand in the corner and think very hard about what you've done.

Louis

P.S. Lest some wag think I'm serious and biased against poor, poor Davey Heddle: I'm not. 'Sa joke. Heddles' point was.....gack....actuallly...very.....yeurk......sensible..

{sound of panting}

See?

--------------
Bye.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2007,16:26   

Quote (Louis @ May 14 2007,16:22)
Quote
Even Heddle says some sensible things:


Arden,

No.

I'm sorry we just don't say things like that. Go and stand in the corner and think very hard about what you've done.

Louis

P.S. Lest some wag think I'm serious and biased against poor, poor Davey Heddle: I'm not. 'Sa joke. Heddles' point was.....gack....actuallly...very.....yeurk......sensible..

{sound of panting}

See?

Now, see, Louis? Was that so hard?  :p

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2007,16:29   

Quote (J-Dog @ May 14 2007,18:18)
I would have made it a Monthly Award Nomination, if it had a rugby reference in it...

Go Cats!

Are you a fan of the mighty mighty Leicester Tigers also?

All I can say is 44 to 16. We've got Wasps this weekend for the Heineken Cup, and if we play like we did on Saturday, we'll bloody murder 'em.

Louis

P.S. For those of an unfortunately foreign disposition (you have my pity for losing life's great lottery and not being born an Englishman) The Leicester Tigers are a rugby union team who have won 2 of the three tournaments that it is possible to win this season We are the best club in the UK and if all goes well this weekend, the best club in Europe.

Tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrs

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2007,16:31   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ May 14 2007,23:26)
Now, see, Louis? Was that so hard?  :p

Yes. I'm going for a lie down in a darkened room. Have the house boy fetch me a Mint Julip and an ice pack. I think I've sprained my tolerance gland.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
guthrie



Posts: 696
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2007,16:59   

Quote (BWE @ May 14 2007,14:09)
Quote (guthrie @ May 13 2007,17:34)
I don't think Lennie suffers from manic-depressive illness.  Rather, a uni-polar dislike of nutters, but since thats not listed as a mental illness, there's nothing he needs to be on.

Need - as in Maslow? Because,...

BEcause he needs beer I suppose.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4902
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2007,17:50   

Quote

Was he denied tenure?


Yes, Carroll was denied tenure at the University of Chicago. He moved to CalTech without instigating an email campaign about how he'd been robbed or otherwise showing anything but some disappointment that the UoC thing didn't work out.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2007,17:57   

Quote (guthrie @ May 14 2007,16:59)
BEcause he needs beer I suppose.

And brunettes.    :)

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2007,20:27   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ May 14 2007,17:50)
Quote

Was he denied tenure?


Yes, Carroll was denied tenure at the University of Chicago. He moved to CalTech without instigating an email campaign about how he'd been robbed or otherwise showing anything but some disappointment that the UoC thing didn't work out.

I'm not sure that Dr. Gonzalez has instigated such an e-mail campaign but I do not fault him if he has. People who are wronged should not roll over.

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Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
Dr.GH



Posts: 2137
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2007,21:41   

A friend of mine was turned down for tenure when the department had no money for any promotions.  But, they handled it by "alowing" him to withdraw from review.  2 years later with a better $$ picture, he was alowed to "resume" the process.  He 1) had not raised a fuss, 2) had received other offers, and was given tenure.

When I was confronted with tenure- I quit.  I could not stand the idea of staying in Georgia anymore.  I could not stand dealing with medical students anymore.  I was even tired of crazy sick people (by far the better part of the deal).

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 2137
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2007,21:44   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ May 14 2007,13:31)
If you haven't already done so, see Ed's blog for a good discussion of this, with some very apropos remarks about just how arbitrary the awarding or not rewarding of tenure often/usually is.

What could Brayton ever know about tenure?  He is not eligable, never considered, and never will be.

Gack gack ptuie.  Heddle did have a sensible comment. I was rejected for tenure at one college the same year I cleared the same amount of grant $$ as my salary, received  the board of trustee's "Commendation for Excellence" and was named "Teacher of the Year." I was told that a single tenured faculty member stopped the application by claiming  I "was not very collegal."  Translated that means I objected to his habit of giving good grades for blow-jobs.

Sure there is a personality aspect.  Anybody here work in any large companies?

Edited by Dr.GH on May 14 2007,21:59

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2007,21:58   

Quote
P.S. For those of an unfortunately foreign disposition (you have my pity for losing life's great lottery and not being born an Englishman) [snip, snip, blahbiddy blah]We are the best club in the UK and if all goes well this weekend, the best club in Europe.

Ahem. In Europe, yes, maybe.

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Chris Hyland



Posts: 705
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 14 2007,23:20   

Quote
I was rejected for tenure at one college the same year I cleared the same amount of grant $$ as my salary
Not only that but at this point we have no idea whether or not Gonzalez is bringing in the grants, which surely is more important than the number of papers he's published.

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2197
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2007,00:04   

Quote
I was even tired of crazy sick people (by far the better part of the deal).

And yet, you continue to post here.

:-)

Bob

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It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2007,00:11   

Quote
I am surrounded by people who have impressive publication records in mathematics and statistics, and they are my measuring stick.


something tells me you constantly attempt to overcompensate for your rather tiny "measuring stick", bobbo.

Quote
Thank you for demonstrating the lack of native intelligence of the opposition


opposition?  LOL.  when exactly are you going to go about actually defining a position for you to be in opposition to to begin with?

right.

troll.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
BWE



Posts: 1898
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2007,00:37   

Quote (Dr.GH @ May 14 2007,21:44)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ May 14 2007,13:31)
If you haven't already done so, see Ed's blog for a good discussion of this, with some very apropos remarks about just how arbitrary the awarding or not rewarding of tenure often/usually is.

What could Brayton ever know about tenure?  He is not eligable, never considered, and never will be.

Gack gack ptuie.  Heddle did have a sensible comment. I was rejected for tenure at one college the same year I cleared the same amount of grant $$ as my salary, received  the board of trustee's "Commendation for Excellence" and was named "Teacher of the Year." I was told that a single tenured faculty member stopped the application by claiming  I "was not very collegal."  Translated that means I objected to his habit of giving good grades for blow-jobs.

Sure there is a personality aspect.  Anybody here work in any large companies?

I'd trade grades for blow jobs. Maybe that's part of the reason I was never tenured.

Hmmm. There may be more to it though.

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
N.Wells



Posts: 1772
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2007,00:49   

Say that a research university grants tenure to a 30-year-old scientist.  The university is likely to keep that person for another 35 years, which could amount to on the order of 2.5-5 million dollars in salary, fringe benefits, and work space prior to retirement.  Actually, since no one can make you retire any more, you could conceivably add another 15 or so years on to that, adding another 40% to those costs.

A popular teacher at a state university who pulls in 300 students into a large lecture course once a semester will earn their department somewhere around $200,000 to $300,000 per year for that course, depending on how much the university pays the department per enrollee at that course level.  Let's say $240,000 at $400 per student.  In contrast, an unpopular teacher who can only draw 30 students per intro session is only going to earn the department $24,000 per year for two offerings of that course.  Over 35 years that's going to be a difference in $7,560,000 in departmental income.  So a tenure decision is not a minor one, and a department will have a long time to regret a mistake.

Moreover, whomever a department tenures, the department is probably going to be stuck with for the next 35 years.  A single person can quite easily turn a department from being a great place to work to a miserable place.  Someone who carries their share of committee work is to be desired, whereas someone whose trials and tribulations creates committee work just drags everyone down. A good professor pulls in good students and adds to the glory of the department, whereas a bad professor scares the good students away.  People have different strengths in different areas, so one hopes to get a good mix of strengths in a department.  People say tenure is like a marriage (worse, because it's probably more like a plural marriage), but at least in marriages you can get a divorce if things turn ugly.

Thus a lot weighs on a tenure decision besides 'did this person meet the minimum requirements?'  

Among the factors taken into consideration in tenure decisions (besides the numbers of papers published) are $$$ obtained in external funding; where were articles and books published; how many times have the various publications been cited; how many coauthors were involved in publications and grants; what were the candidate's contributions in multi-author works and multiple-investigator grants; how many masters, doctoral, and post-doc students has the candidate mentored; what  senior people in the field but outside your university think of the person's research; professional awards and service; and teaching evaluations by students and fellow faculty.  Along with other stuff.  Shortcomings in almost any of these things could potentially doom a tenure decision.    

To enlarge on the importance of where things are published: the humanities in particular have few ways of assessing the significance of a work (citation records for humanities works tend to be problematic and not comparable), so they have made a finely honed art out of assessing the reputation of the publisher of your book.  This can arise, albeit to a lesser degree, in science as well.  I would guess that a Regnery Press book might well be held against a candidate at a college- or university-level committee: it's sort of sending up a flag that you don't want to be considered a serious scholar.

(My apologies for some repetition of points that others have already made.)

  
slpage



Posts: 349
Joined: June 2004

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2007,14:38   

I admit, I was granted tenure and I have far fewer publications that Gonzalez (but many more than Wells and Dembski) and have never even received a major research grant (I have received a few small ones).

Then, I am not at a major research institution, do not claim to be or present myself as a major researcher, have not claimed (implicitly or explicitly) to have overturned a major scientific theory or to have provided material support for a fringe ideology.  Nor have I ignored the course catalog description of a class and instead taught my preferred fringe ideology.  

Tenure is no guarantee, even if you publish, even if you have grants.  As others have pointed out, there is much more to it.  While I was in grad school, one of the profs in my dept. was up for tenure.  She had dozens of publications, had recently received a big NSF grant, taught several courses, etc., yet was denied tenure.  I know a major researcher at Harvard that has never received tenure yet has been there for decades.

For the ID crowd to whine about this is to yet again display their intellectual limitations, their spoiled child attitude, and their condescending hubris.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2007,15:29   

Denialism Blog's post on the subject.

Just thought I'd share.

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
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Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2007,16:42   

Quote (Ichthyic @ May 15 2007,00:11)
something tells me you constantly attempt to overcompensate for your rather tiny "measuring stick", bobbo.

Maybe I should demonstrate my manhood by teaming up with you and Peezee to pick on another high school student.

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Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2007,17:06   

ooh, nice try at deflection, but nobody's biting, bobbo.

bait's too small.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
MidnightVoice



Posts: 380
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 16 2007,17:33   

Quote
P.S. For those of an unfortunately foreign disposition (you have my pity for losing life's great lottery and not being born an Englishman) [snip, snip, blahbiddy blah]We are the best club in the UK and if all goes well this weekend, the best club in Europe.

Quote
Ahem. In Europe, yes, maybe.


And in the Southern Hemisphere it will be a South African Team  :D

Back to tenure:

From the local paper

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps....0514050

Supporters of Gonzalez said they think the university denied him tenure, because he was promoting an unpopular idea on college campuses, the theory that some features of life are best explained as products of an intelligent cause, rather than natural selection or random mutation.

“I think if looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it likely is a duck,” said John West, a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute, a Seattle-based organization that supports discussing intelligent design in science classes.

“There are two issues here: academic freedom and the First Amendment. Gonzalez has gained attention for his advocacy of intelligent design as legitimate science in his book, "The Privileged Planet."

More than 400 faculty members at the three public universities have signed petitions since Gonzalez’s book was published that rejected attempts to represent intelligent design as science. None of the statements mention Gonzalez by name.

http://desmoinesregister.com/apps....004

prof appeals denial of tenure

About 12 people have applied for tenure in the past 10 years in the physics and astronomy department, and four of those were denied, said Eli Rosenberg, the chairman of the ISU department of physics and astronomy.

John McCarroll, an ISU spokesman, said tenure is achieved through approval from the candidate's department, the department chairman, a committee within the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences, the dean of the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences, the executive vice president and provost, and the university president.

Gonzalez was denied a favorable vote on each of those levels, he said.

The decision on whether to award tenure is also based on the quality of the faculty member's work, the "impact in the community, how you are being received in the community," Rosenberg said.

--------------
If I fly the coop some time
And take nothing but a grip
With the few good books that really count
It's a necessary trip

I'll be gone with the girl in the gold silk jacket
The girl with the pearl-driller's hands

  
Henry J



Posts: 4792
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 16 2007,21:34   

Quote
“I think if looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it likely is a duck,” said John West, [...]


Seems like DI people should avoid using lines like that, since it could so easily be used against the guy he's defending.

Henry

  
Chris Hyland



Posts: 705
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 16 2007,23:20   

I've never laughed so hard at creationist dishonesty:

Quote
Two of the five active tenured astronomy professors in the department that denied tenure to Guillermo Gonzalez at Iowa State University are connected to a widely-publicized statement that denounces intelligent design as "creationist pseudoscience."

...

Iowa State University has made much of the fact that Dr. Gonzalez's tenure application was rejected starting at the level of his department. Now we know that at least 40% of the tenured faculty in astronomy in his department are connected to a statement that regards intelligent design as "creationist pseudoscience" and insists that "it is scientifically inappropriate and pedagogically irresponsible" for it "to be introduced into… science curricula."


For anyone who doesnt know the statement actually reads:
Quote
It is scientifically inappropriate and pedagogically irresponsible for creationist pseudoscience, including but not limited to "intelligent design," to be introduced into the science curricula of our nation's public schools.
ie nothing to do with teaching at university whatsoever.

I did some investigation of my own and it turns out the project Steve statement also says:

Quote
Evolution is ... a major ... inappropriate and pedagogically irresponsible ... curricula
So it turns out it's a pro-ID statement after all.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4902
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,00:10   

Quote

“There are two issues here: academic freedom and the First Amendment. Gonzalez has gained attention for his advocacy of intelligent design as legitimate science in his book, "The Privileged Planet."


A tenure committee should take note of someone advocating a scam as if it were legitimate science.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,01:08   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ May 17 2007,00:10)
A tenure committee should take note of someone advocating a scam as if it were legitimate science.

I do not think that criticism applies to Guillermo Gonzalez.

--------------
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
Chris Hyland



Posts: 705
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,05:17   

Haha it gets even better:
Quote
Science Professor Expresses Astonishment at Iowa State's Denial of Tenure to Gonzalez
Can you guess what science?
Quote
Dr. Robert J. Marks, Distinguished Professor of Electrical and Computer Engineering at Baylor University

Quote
I went to the Web of Science citation index which is the authority on citations. Only journal papers, not conference papers, are indexed. There are lots of Prof. Gonzalez's papers listed. My jaw dropped when I saw one of his papers has 153 citations and 139 on another. I have sat on oodles of tenure committees at both a large private university and a state research university, chaired the university tenure committee, and have seen more tenure cases than the Pope has Cardinals. This is a LOT of citations for an assistant professor up for tenure.
Right from now on whenever I see a post about this from a creationist I'm going to search for:
Quote
$
and if I don't find anything I'm not going to read it.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4902
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,06:18   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 17 2007,01:08)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ May 17 2007,00:10)
A tenure committee should take note of someone advocating a scam as if it were legitimate science.

I do not think that criticism applies to Guillermo Gonzalez.

According to the DI, it does. Emphasis added:

Quote

“There are two issues here: academic freedom and the First Amendment. Gonzalez has gained attention for his advocacy of intelligent design as legitimate science in his book, "The Privileged Planet."


--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Dr.GH



Posts: 2137
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,11:04   

Faculty have a proper concern about the reputation of the school and the consequent effect this has on their students.  I would be more likely to accept a student from schools without creationists teaching than schools where they do.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,13:25   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ May 17 2007,06:18)
According to the DI, it does. Emphasis added:

 
Quote

“There are two issues here: academic freedom and the First Amendment. Gonzalez has gained attention for his advocacy of intelligent design as legitimate science in his book, "The Privileged Planet."

You should know as well as anyone that there are two schools in the ID "big tent," one for "biological ID" and one for "cosmological ID." Guillermo Gonzalez is in the latter group, and as far as I know he has not specifically endorsed Of Pandas and People.

--------------
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,13:32   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 17 2007,13:25)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ May 17 2007,06:18)
According to the DI, it does. Emphasis added:

 
Quote

“There are two issues here: academic freedom and the First Amendment. Gonzalez has gained attention for his advocacy of intelligent design as legitimate science in his book, "The Privileged Planet."

You should know as well as anyone that there are two schools in the ID "big tent," one for "biological ID" and one for "cosmological ID." Guillermo Gonzalez is in the latter group, and as far as I know he has not specifically endorsed Of Pandas and People.

Two schools; one manifesto, BobTard.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,13:40   

Quote (Richardthughes @ May 17 2007,13:32)
Two schools; one manifesto, BobTard.

I refuse to lump them all together, DickTard. Guillermo Gonzalez is several steps above the Apostle of Savior-King Moon, for example.

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Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,13:48   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 17 2007,13:40)
Quote (Richardthughes @ May 17 2007,13:32)
Two schools; one manifesto, BobTard.

I refuse to lump them all together, DickTard. Guillermo Gonzalez is several steps above the Apostle of Savior-King Moon, for example.

Gotcha. Despite the whole DI thing. Nothing like arbitrary Fundy dichotomies. But if he were a Moonie, he'd be bad, no doubt.

You're using less Latin these days.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,14:14   

Quote (Richardthughes @ May 17 2007,13:48)
Nothing like arbitrary Fundy dichotomies.

DickTard:

When you use "labels" indiscriminately they lose their force. If I'm a "fundy" then what's this guy

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Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,15:17   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 17 2007,13:25)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ May 17 2007,06:18)
According to the DI, it does. Emphasis added:

 
Quote

“There are two issues here: academic freedom and the First Amendment. Gonzalez has gained attention for his advocacy of intelligent design as legitimate science in his book, "The Privileged Planet."

You should know as well as anyone that there are two schools in the ID "big tent," one for "biological ID" and one for "cosmological ID." Guillermo Gonzalez is in the latter group, and as far as I know he has not specifically endorsed Of Pandas and People.

I'm sorry, where was Of Pandas and People in Wes's quote?  You're going to have to show me that evidence card, now Bob.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4902
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,15:49   

To be fair, the IDC-as-scam link is about the drafts of "Of Pandas and People".

However, the point that Gonzalez may not have explicitly endorsed OPAP doesn't affect the validity of my statement. OPAP is not the only evidence going that IDC is a sham.
Also, some people involved in a Ponzi scheme may sincerely believe that they are engaged in legitimate multi-level marketing business practices; they would still be wrong.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,16:10   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 17 2007,14:14)
Quote (Richardthughes @ May 17 2007,13:48)
Nothing like arbitrary Fundy dichotomies.

DickTard:

When you use "labels" indiscriminately they lose their force. If I'm a "fundy" then what's this guy

Your Dad?

Checked out your blog, BTW.

Latin down 70%, bitterness at Ed Brayton up 35%.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
silverspoon



Posts: 123
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,17:58   

Of course Gonzalez could end all the speculations about why he was denied.  ISU’s policies require them to inform him in writing the reasons for his denial.

The negative publicity he’s receiving from all the whining the DI is doing must outweigh any prospects of future employment in his book.  Very strange, coming from such an intelligent fellow.

--------------
Grand Poobah of the nuclear mafia

  
JohnW



Posts: 2835
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,18:04   

Quote (silverspoon @ May 17 2007,17:58)
Of course Gonzalez could end all the speculations about why he was denied.  ISU’s policies require them to inform him in writing the reasons for his denial.

The negative publicity he’s receiving from all the whining the DI is doing must outweigh any prospects of future employment in his book.  Very strange, coming from such an intelligent fellow.

The publicity is all but guaranteeing him a tenured position in the Department of Apologetics at some fundie bible college.  Maybe he's taking advice from The Isaac Newton of Farty Noises.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,18:08   

Quote (silverspoon @ May 17 2007,17:58)
Of course Gonzalez could end all the speculations about why he was denied.  ISU’s policies require them to inform him in writing the reasons for his denial.

The negative publicity he’s receiving from all the whining the DI is doing must outweigh any prospects of future employment in his book.  Very strange, coming from such an intelligent fellow.

Playing the martyr is much more conducive to filling the offering plate than doing actual research.  Especially when you know ahead of time that there's no research to do.

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,19:03   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 17 2007,13:25)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ May 17 2007,06:18)
According to the DI, it does. Emphasis added:

 
Quote

“There are two issues here: academic freedom and the First Amendment. Gonzalez has gained attention for his advocacy of intelligent design as legitimate science in his book, "The Privileged Planet."

You should know as well as anyone that there are two schools in the ID "big tent," one for "biological ID" and one for "cosmological ID." Guillermo Gonzalez is in the latter group, and as far as I know he has not specifically endorsed Of Pandas and People.

Hey Bobbie, in the phrase "cosmological ID", what, uh, does the "ID" stand for . . . . . . . . .  . . . . . ?

--------------
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www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4902
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(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2007,23:03   

Seems that FtK doesn't like the fact that a tenure committee could pay attention to whether a candidate is promoting a scam.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 18 2007,10:15   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ May 17 2007,23:03)
Seems that FtK doesn't like the fact that a tenure committee could pay attention to whether a candidate is promoting a scam.

She'd have 'teach the controversy' 2+3 =7 mathematicians in there, too.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
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heddle



Posts: 124
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 18 2007,10:20   

JohnW,

Quote
The publicity is all but guaranteeing him a tenured position in the Department of Apologetics at some fundie bible college.


Nope. Most fundie colleges (e.g., BJU, Liberty), require an affirmation of the YEC view. Gonzalez would not qualify.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 18 2007,10:46   

Quote (heddle @ May 18 2007,10:20)
JohnW,

Quote
The publicity is all but guaranteeing him a tenured position in the Department of Apologetics at some fundie bible college.


Nope. Most fundie colleges (e.g., BJU, Liberty), require an affirmation of the YEC view. Gonzalez would not qualify.

Unless you're William Dembski...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Dembski#Recent_developments

Maybe there is room under the big tent for a dis-credited ID Martyr after all at a Liberty, or a Patriot U.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
stevestory



Posts: 10399
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 18 2007,13:07   

Quote (J-Dog @ May 18 2007,11:46)
Unless you're William Dembski...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Dembski#Recent_developments

That 'recent developments' section begins thusly:

Quote
Recent developments

In December 2001, Dembski launched the International Society for Complexity, Information and Design (ISCID), of which he is Executive Director. Dembski is also the editor-in-chief of ISCID's journal, Progress in Complexity, Information, and Design (PCID).


Given that PCID, the premiere ID journal, hasn't published an issue in over a year and a half, maybe they should rename it No Progress in Complexity, Information, and Design.

If you wanted to be sober and do a little digging, you could probably find a couple of amusing things:

1 Past statements decrying the very concept of tenure, by IDers who now wail and gnash their teeth that Gonzales isn't receiving it.
2 Search through The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, From Fraud to Foolishness, and like books, and find a dozen basic ways in which ID fails as a scientific revolution and instead resembles various other scams such as free energy and dianetics. Just offhand I can think of a) no operational definitions for CSI b) confirmation bias, c) no progress solving outstanding problems d) deliberately confusing jargon e) allegations of conspiracy f) misuse of legitimate science such as the SLOT....

Somebody else can continue. It's been a long week. I'm going to watch the NBA playoffs and get smashed.

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 18 2007,14:07   

Quote (stevestory @ May 18 2007,13:07)
Somebody else can continue. It's been a long week. I'm going to watch the NBA playoffs and get smashed.

Steve - More fuel for the DI Conspiracy hopper...

The NBA also has a clear bias against Gonzalez, as he is denied the opportunity to sit courtside and root for the Iowa NBA team...

When will the hating ever stop?

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 18 2007,14:20   

Quote
And you wonder why the public doesn’t buy this story. The public evidently has enough horse sense to know a pile of manure when they smell one. The Darwinian narrative is already lost. The only thing propping it up is the establishment clause and that’s being remedied as we speak. You see that just takes a little longer because we have for SCOTUS justices to retire or die before we can replace them. The easy part was taking over congress, the executive branch, school boards, etc. If it wasn’t for tenure there’d be even more reorganization going on.

You can’t fight city hall.

Write that down.

DS
Thats cheesy poof meister no.1. What planet is Davescot talking about again, where all these things happened? I don't remeber any of that, LOL.

And Dembski? bitter:
     
Quote
Unlike Forrest and Miller, who have nice cushy jobs with tenure, at the time I came on as an expert witness for Thomas More, I was in the process of losing my job with Baylor.

Aww.
Better keep those $100,000 paydays coming.
Oh, and there's the classic      
Quote
If I ever became the president of a university (per impossibile), I would dissolve the biology department and divide the faculty with tenure that I couldn’t get rid of into two new departments: those who know engineering and how it applies to biological systems would be assigned to the new “Department of Biological Engineering”; the rest, and that includes the evolutionists, would be consigned to the new “Department of Nature Appreciation” (didn’t Darwin think of himself as a naturalist?).

of course. All the fuss they are making now, yet it was only on the 10 January 2007 that Dembski said that. I linked to the google cache of that particular page, for reasons that i'm sure by now are obvious.

So, the head"things" of ID despise tenure, much like Dembski despises what Dawkins stands for. hahahahaha


 
Quote
Oldman, you get AtBC Member of the Month.
Marvellous! :D

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 18 2007,14:36   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ May 18 2007,14:20)
Quote
And you wonder why the public doesn’t buy this story. The public evidently has enough horse sense to know a pile of manure when they smell one. The Darwinian narrative is already lost. The only thing propping it up is the establishment clause and that’s being remedied as we speak. You see that just takes a little longer because we have for SCOTUS justices to retire or die before we can replace them. The easy part was taking over congress, the executive branch, school boards, etc. If it wasn’t for tenure there’d be even more reorganization going on.

You can’t fight city hall.

Write that down.

DS
Thats cheesy poof meister no.1. What planet is Davescot talking about again, where all these things happened? I don't remeber any of that, LOL.

And Dembski? bitter:
       
Quote
Unlike Forrest and Miller, who have nice cushy jobs with tenure, at the time I came on as an expert witness for Thomas More, I was in the process of losing my job with Baylor.

Aww.
Better keep those $100,000 paydays coming.
Oh, and there's the classic        
Quote
If I ever became the president of a university (per impossibile), I would dissolve the biology department and divide the faculty with tenure that I couldn’t get rid of into two new departments: those who know engineering and how it applies to biological systems would be assigned to the new “Department of Biological Engineering”; the rest, and that includes the evolutionists, would be consigned to the new “Department of Nature Appreciation” (didn’t Darwin think of himself as a naturalist?).

of course. All the fuss they are making now, yet it was only on the 10 January 2007 that Dembski said that. I linked to the google cache of that particular page, for reasons that i'm sure by now are obvious.

So, the head"things" of ID despise tenure, much like Dembski despises what Dawkins stands for. hahahahaha


   
Quote
Oldman, you get AtBC Member of the Month.
Marvellous! :D

and possibly next month as well for this post.

Why not forward it to PZ Myers? He runs with our best stuff. Be sure to link to AtBC

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 18 2007,14:57   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ May 18 2007,21:20)
Quote
Oldman, you get AtBC Member of the Month.
Marvellous! :D

It's a swizz! I make my 1000th post, prove god exists and Oldman gets member of the month? I'm writing to my MP.

;-)

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
stevestory



Posts: 10399
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 18 2007,15:05   

Quote (J-Dog @ May 18 2007,15:07)
Quote (stevestory @ May 18 2007,13:07)
Somebody else can continue. It's been a long week. I'm going to watch the NBA playoffs and get smashed.

Steve - More fuel for the DI Conspiracy hopper...

The NBA also has a clear bias against Gonzalez, as he is denied the opportunity to sit courtside and root for the Iowa NBA team...

When will the hating ever stop?

Obviously, I mean, why'd you even bother to point it out? It's also pretty clear that the suspension of Robert Horry for two games is an unwritten Darwinist threat to Gonzales. H is, of course, the letter that comes after G--just as Horry was suspended after Gonzales was denied tenure. Also, there are two G's in his name--Horry was suspended for two games. And what was the Darwinist excuse for the suspension? That Horry knocked Steve Nash "outside the box". I thought we wanted people going "outside the box"?!?!?!?!?!?!

These Darwinists are beyond belief.

PS--Guillermo Gonzales. Galileo Galilei. Notice anything!?!?!?!?!?!?!oneoneoneone

   
stevestory



Posts: 10399
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 18 2007,15:11   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ May 18 2007,15:20)
Quote
The easy part was taking over congress,

He's talking about the Democrats, I presume?

   
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 18 2007,18:00   

Quote (Richardthughes @ May 18 2007,14:36)
Why not forward it to PZ Myers? He runs with our best stuff. Be sure to link to AtBC

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/05/the_id_tenure_plan.php

I did, he did. Fantastic.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 18 2007,18:05   

I TAKE ALL CREDIT.

HOMOS.       :angry:

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 18 2007,18:11   

Quote
PS--Guillermo Gonzales. Galileo Galilei. Notice anything!?!?!?!?!?!?!oneoneoneone


G spot?

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 18 2007,18:15   

Quote (Richardthughes @ May 18 2007,18:05)
I TAKE ALL CREDIT.

HOMOS.       :angry:

I bow to your superior kung fu skills Richardthughes!!


--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 18 2007,18:21   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ May 18 2007,18:15)
Quote (Richardthughes @ May 18 2007,18:05)
I TAKE ALL CREDIT.

HOMOS.       :angry:

I bow to your superior kung fu skills Richardthughes!!

TWO WRITE. MY SIGNATURE IS NOT BIG ENOUGH FOR ALL MY PLAUDITS.



HOMOS.    :angry:


Ps - Congrats!

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 18 2007,19:14   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ May 17 2007,15:49)
To be fair, the IDC-as-scam link is about the drafts of "Of Pandas and People".

However, the point that Gonzalez may not have explicitly endorsed OPAP doesn't affect the validity of my statement. OPAP is not the only evidence going that IDC is a sham.
Also, some people involved in a Ponzi scheme may sincerely believe that they are engaged in legitimate multi-level marketing business practices; they would still be wrong.

There is nothing wrong with the sort of ID Guillermo Gonzalez writes about. The flagellum may have been unspun but the Anthropic Principle and teleology have not.

--------------
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 18 2007,19:24   

Iowa State denies tenure to an intelligent design advocate with impeccable credentials

(via Telic Thoughts)

--------------
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 18 2007,19:25   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 18 2007,19:24)
Iowa State denies tenure to an intelligent design advocate with impeccable credentials

(via Telic Thoughts)

"Weekly News | Christian Views"

Thanks, BobTard!

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 18 2007,20:51   

Quote

There is nothing wrong with the sort of ID Guillermo Gonzalez writes about.


but of course you wouldn't prefer to defend that statement, would ya now, bobbo?

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 18 2007,23:22   

Quote (Ichthyic @ May 18 2007,20:51)
Quote

There is nothing wrong with the sort of ID Guillermo Gonzalez writes about.


but of course you wouldn't prefer to defend that statement, would ya now, bobbo?

I give him a ranking of 5 for speaker points.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 18 2007,23:33   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 18 2007,19:14)
There is nothing wrong with the sort of ID Guillermo Gonzalez writes about. The flagellum may have been unspun but the Anthropic Principle and teleology have not.

In case you haven't noticed, Bobbie, ID is illegal to teach.  

Indeed, ANYTHING that invokes a supernatural creator or designer an an explanatory mechanism, is illegal to teach.

Game over.

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 19 2007,21:04   

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ May 18 2007,23:33)
In case you haven't noticed, Bobbie, ID is illegal to teach.  

Indeed, ANYTHING that invokes a supernatural creator or designer an an explanatory mechanism, is illegal to teach.

Game over.

Lenny, I realize you are limited to a certain set of cognitions, but I did not write anything about teaching ID.

--------------
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
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(Permalink) Posted: May 19 2007,21:20   

BobTard, why not start up a thread about your blog? It'd get more views and comments than your blog does - presumably you want your ramblings looked at?

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 19 2007,23:07   

Quote (Richardthughes @ May 19 2007,21:20)
BobTard, why not start up a thread about your blog? It'd get more views and comments than your blog does - presumably you want your ramblings looked at?

That seems a little narcissistic.

--------------
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 19 2007,23:40   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 19 2007,23:07)
Quote (Richardthughes @ May 19 2007,21:20)
BobTard, why not start up a thread about your blog? It'd get more views and comments than your blog does - presumably you want your ramblings looked at?

That seems a little narcissistic.

No more than blogging...

You can "teach the controversy", teach us Latin...

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 20 2007,00:07   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 19 2007,21:04)
Lenny, I realize you are limited to a certain set of cognitions, but I did not write anything about teaching ID.

It's "Rev Dr" Lenny to you, Bobbie.

And of course you don't actually write about ANYTHING.  (shrug)

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
stevestory



Posts: 10399
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 20 2007,04:37   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 20 2007,00:07)
Quote (Richardthughes @ May 19 2007,21:20)
BobTard, why not start up a thread about your blog? It'd get more views and comments than your blog does - presumably you want your ramblings looked at?

That seems a little narcissistic.


   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4902
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 20 2007,07:32   

Quote

Lenny, I realize you are limited to a certain set of cognitions, but I did not write anything about teaching ID.


Lenny's cognitive processes seem not to ignore relevant information, since the Discovery Institute Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture, the place where Gonzalez is a Senior Fellow, has written plenty about teaching ID.

Privileged Planet Teaching Guide by Gonzalez and Richards:

 
Quote

We are pleased that Dr. Keas has granted us permission to expand on and adapt his guide for a broader audience. It is appropriate for high school through advanced undergraduate students. It can be used as a supplement for an introductory astronomy or general science course, along with The Privileged Planet and accompanying documentary, an introductory astronomy textbook and perhaps a set of readings on the history of science (e.g., selected chapters from The Book of the Cosmos by Dennis Danielson).


(Emphasis added.)

I suppose a demonstrated inability to ignore inconvenient information could be viewed as a cognitive limitation. To others, it may appear as an essential component of intellectual honesty.

Edited by Wesley R. Elsberry on May 20 2007,07:33

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4902
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 20 2007,08:07   

Gonzalez signing off on "irreducible complexity" and "specified complexity":

Quote

Regardless of his position as a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute, Guillermo Gonzalez said he never begins his research with the outright outcome of intelligent design. As a Christian, I believe in God, he said. But as a design theorist, I have to be open to not finding evidence of design. Gonzalez rejects accusations that he is force-fitting his faith into his science. I would be a total fraud, he said. Those are some serious charges. But the only conclusion Gonzalez found in his research detailed in The Privileged Planet was that of intelligent design. Intelligent design is defined as the idea that certain features found in the universe and life exhibit signs of being created by an intelligent agent or cause. That assertion centers around the theories of irreducible complexity and specified complexity. Irreducible complexity  introduced in a 1996 book by biochemist Michael Behe claims that evolution and natural selection cannot account for such things as molecular machines that need all parts in place in order to function. Behe argues that evolution could not have created these materials through small changes at a time.The probability of all these pieces coming together at once naturally is extremely small, Gonzalez said. Specified complexity  introduced by intelligent design proponent William Dembski claims that when something is both specified and complex, it is the product of an intelligent cause or agent. Dembski claims that not only do the worlds materials have complexity, but they also conform to an independent specification or pattern. Intelligent design theorists also say that there are only three possibilities for everything found in nature: Natural law, chance or intelligent design. InThe Privileged Planet, Gonzalez argues that the number of factors deemed necessary for complex life to exist is about 20. Multiplying the probabilities of each of these factors happening at the same time in the same place, creates a probability so small that it points in the direction of an intelligent designer and not natural occurrences, Gonzalez said. According to Gonzalezs calculations, the chances for complex life to exist on a privileged planet are smaller than what Dembski said is the bound for chance.


--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Chris Hyland



Posts: 705
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 20 2007,09:58   

Quote
In The Privileged Planet, Gonzalez argues that the number of factors deemed necessary for complex life to exist is about 20. Multiplying the probabilities of each of these factors happening at the same time in the same place, creates a probability so small that it points in the direction of an intelligent designer and not natural occurrences, Gonzalez said.
Does anyone know of a link to where someone calculates these probabilities.
Quote
There is nothing wrong with the sort of ID Guillermo Gonzalez writes about. The flagellum may have been unspun but the Anthropic Principle and teleology have not.
I think it's not so much his espousal of intelligent design as his endorsement of the intelligent design movement.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4902
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 20 2007,10:28   

Quote

Does anyone know of a link to where someone calculates these probabilities.


I don't. So far as I know, there's still only four examples that have come with any numbers and some part of William "Do The Calculation"(*) Dembski's GCEA applied.

(*) See near the end of "The Design Inference".

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
stevestory



Posts: 10399
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 20 2007,11:39   

Quote (Chris Hyland @ May 20 2007,10:58)
Quote
In The Privileged Planet, Gonzalez argues that the number of factors deemed necessary for complex life to exist is about 20. Multiplying the probabilities of each of these factors happening at the same time in the same place, creates a probability so small that it points in the direction of an intelligent designer and not natural occurrences, Gonzalez said.
Does anyone know of a link to where someone calculates these probabilities.

I seem to remember David Heddle claiming that Cosmological ID wasn't a probabalistic argument. Gonzales must not have gotten the memo.

   
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 20 2007,13:33   

Quote (Chris Hyland @ May 20 2007,09:58)
Quote
In The Privileged Planet, Gonzalez argues that the number of factors deemed necessary for complex life to exist is about 20. Multiplying the probabilities of each of these factors happening at the same time in the same place, creates a probability so small that it points in the direction of an intelligent designer and not natural occurrences, Gonzalez said.

Hmm, and if all of those 20 values had been different, what would the probability be of THOSE particular 20 values happening at the same time at the same place . . . . ?

Gee, they'd be THE SAME GODDAMN PROBABILITY.

Indeed, it'd be the VERY SAME PROBABILITY for ***any***  20 values happening at the same time and same place.

Amazing, isn't it.

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
Chris Hyland



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 20 2007,15:08   

Well if those values are cosmological constants we have no idea what the probabilities might be. Unless someone has sampled a large number of different universes and I haven't heard about it.

  
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 21 2007,00:10   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ May 20 2007,07:32)
Quote

Lenny, I realize you are limited to a certain set of cognitions, but I did not write anything about teaching ID.


Lenny's cognitive processes seem not to ignore relevant information, since the Discovery Institute Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture, the place where Gonzalez is a Senior Fellow, has written plenty about teaching ID.

Privileged Planet Teaching Guide by Gonzalez and Richards:

   
Quote

We are pleased that Dr. Keas has granted us permission to expand on and adapt his guide for a broader audience. It is appropriate for high school through advanced undergraduate students. It can be used as a supplement for an introductory astronomy or general science course, along with The Privileged Planet and accompanying documentary, an introductory astronomy textbook and perhaps a set of readings on the history of science (e.g., selected chapters from The Book of the Cosmos by Dennis Danielson).


(Emphasis added.)

I suppose a demonstrated inability to ignore inconvenient information could be viewed as a cognitive limitation. To others, it may appear as an essential component of intellectual honesty.


Not everyone affiliated with DI is interested in the politics of ID, and I have seen nothing to suggest Guillermo Gonzalez has pushed his teleological musings in his classes.

Also, you neglect to mention the person they are addressing teaches at a Baptist university.

--------------
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 21 2007,00:50   

Quote
Not everyone affiliated with DI is interested in the politics of ID


..and this is based on?

the massive amount of (super secret!) research they haven't published?

their media complaints division?

what, Bob, WHAT?

everyone here is so tired of you pulling your arguments out of your ass.  why don't you go into detail, once, just frickin' ONCE. at least then you could spawn some debate, rather than just coming here to fart every so often.

really, all it does is make you look like an idiot.

you aren't an idiot, are you bobbo?

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 21 2007,01:39   

As I posted to Rob Knop's blog, perhaps the inquisition will soon extend to Owen Gingerich and John Polkinghorne.

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Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
heddle



Posts: 124
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 21 2007,08:13   

Steve s,
   
Quote
I seem to remember David Heddle claiming that Cosmological ID wasn't a probabalistic argument. Gonzales must not have gotten the memo.

Well, you know how much respect I garner in the ID community!

Anyway, it (cosmological ID) most certainly is not a probabilistic argument (although five years ago I too thought it was), as a simple argument demonstrates. That is: The best thing that could happen to CID is if all the constants were found to have not a tiny probability but the largest possible: unity, i.e. if they are found to be derivable from a fundamental theory. That would be a serious blow to the multiverse explanations of fine tuning, such as the superstring landscape or cosmological evolution, explanations that rely on the fact that there is no fundamental theory, and that the constants are either a random draw or evolve toward a species of universe good at producing black holes. A fundamental theory deriving constants would mean the fine tuning was built in the fabric of spacetime. I'd take that.

Not only did Gonzalez not get that memo, he didn’t get the one where I suggested that the main argument from The Privileged Planet is at least slightly anti-ID (in fact, in personal correspondence he disagreed with me on this point). I still think I’m right. The PP argues that observability is correlated with habitability, making arguments like: a large moon is necessary for complex life because it (produces cleansing tides, stabilizes the orbit, facilitates seasons, …) and it also helps with observability (eclipses). And our location in Sagan’s galactic backwater is necessary because (low radiation, stability of the sun’s galactic orbit..) and it also helps with observability (a dark nighttime sky.) In other words, they argue that observability rides on the coattails of habitability. (Which, by the way, in and of itself is clearly a premise worthy of study—if Gonzalez had stayed in the closet that premise, whether or not it proves to be correct, would not have been regarded as pseudo-science.) To me however, a purer ID statement would be that God made the earth habitable and as a bonus and as a tiebreaker in the debate with naturalists, he made it a good observatory, too.  

In other words, if the PP is wrong and obervability is not correlated with habitability, then we have a second prong (the first being fine tuning) on the CID side of the debate.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4902
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 21 2007,10:26   

Quote

Not everyone affiliated with DI is interested in the politics of ID,


First, it isn't necessary that Gonzalez be "interested". I have no way of knowing his inner mental processes to evaluate attention and motivation. That's nothing to do with the subject.

Second, the evidence sure doesn't support the notion that GG is above all that political stuff. One of the DI CRSC's major PR pushes of recent memory was the arrangement to premiere the film, "The Privileged Planet", at the Smithsonian Institute's National Museum of Natural History. They went so far as to have the PR firm Creative Response Concepts, of "Swift Boat Vets for Truth" fame, manage the negotiations. I don't recall hearing a peep out of GG that the political hullabaloo surrounding that was anything but exactly what he wanted. Quite the contrary, one can read GG's open letter to his critics to see that political engagement is certainly within his repetoire.

Quote

and I have seen nothing to suggest Guillermo Gonzalez has pushed his teleological musings in his classes.


How would that matter, precisely? There is the joke about the lawyer who responded to the news that the prosecution would call three eye-witnesses to testify that his client had killed the victim in front of them with, "Well, I will call THIRTY witnesses who will testify that they did not see him do it!" We have the evidence of GG compiling a study guide and having it disseminated via the DI website, a study guide that he says is aimed at high school classrooms. This  goes well beyond what may happen in ISU classrooms.

Quote

Also, you neglect to mention the person they are addressing teaches at a Baptist university.


How would that matter, precisely? Again, the distribution on that study guide obviously goes beyond "a Baptist university".

I've heard that the Chronicle of Higher Education article on GG and ISU claims that GG has not brought in any external funding to his department. Can someone who has access to the full article confirm or deny this?

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 21 2007,11:14   

Quote
That would be a serious blow to the multiverse explanations of fine tuning, such as the superstring landscape or cosmological evolution, explanations that rely on the fact that there is no fundamental theory...


This isn't correct is it?  I'm no cosmologist but theories such as M-Theory and brane worlds do not imply that there is no fundamental theory of everything, right?  In fact, string theory  (as far out and perhaps untestable as it is) is a quest for a unified theory.  So I don't get how disproving any of these is really an argument for CID.

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But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
heddle



Posts: 124
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 21 2007,11:53   

blipey,

Quote
This isn't correct is it?  I'm no cosmologist but theories such as M-Theory and brane worlds do not imply that there is no fundamental theory of everything, right?  In fact, string theory  (as far out and perhaps untestable as it is) is a quest for a unified theory.  So I don't get how disproving any of these is really an argument for CID.


Actually, it is correct. You'll notice that I wrote of the string theory landscape, not string theory proper. The landscape explicitly teaches that the values of the constants would be, effectively, a random draw from something like 10^1000 possibilities. That's how it explains the fine tuning. Susskind, for example, argues that the search for a fundamental theory is something akin to religion (which you might characterize as an announcement of the death of physics), and he also argues that if the landscape theory is wrong, it will be very hard to answer the cosmological IDists.

Susskind, in fact, gives provides some of the clearest writing on fine-tuning. Why? Certainly not because he is an IDist. He detests ID. But rather to show the necessity for the landscape theory—a theory which does indeed rely on the premise that there will be no fundamental theory uncovered from which the constants can be derived.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 21 2007,11:57   

Dave, I'm not a physicist like you (but we both went to Cornell) - are there two potential 'planes of infinite' for universe creation: Infinite time (backwards) and infinite universes?

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
heddle



Posts: 124
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 21 2007,12:07   

Richard,

I didn't go to Cornell; I went to Carnegie Mellon.

Yes, if I understand your question, a theoretical infinity of universes can arise, depending on the model, either in series or in parallel (or both.)

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 21 2007,12:12   

Quote (heddle @ May 21 2007,12:07)
Richard,

I didn't go to Cornell; I went to Carnegie Mellon.

Yes, if I understand your question, a theoretical infinity of universes can arise, depending on the model, either in series or in parallel (or both.)

Sorry about the school confusion Dave.  I'm careful playing probability games with anything that contains an 'infinite' and at least one positive occurrence. Do you remember 'Drake's equation' - I guess that was the first time I thought about such things. Personally, I think the universe would be a much more fun place if life and intelligence were common emergent properties.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
heddle



Posts: 124
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 21 2007,12:46   

Yes, I know the Drake equation. I'm not a big fan for two reasons: 1) We don't really know what probabilities to put in and 2) we don't really know when to stop the multiplicative chain--you can keep tacking on additional probabilities under the assumption that they are additional independent requirements for intelligent life. In some cases you might be right--but the end result is you can get any answer you please, more or less.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 21 2007,13:52   

Quote (heddle @ May 21 2007,12:46)
Yes, I know the Drake equation. I'm not a big fan for two reasons: 1) We don't really know what probabilities to put in and 2) we don't really know when to stop the multiplicative chain--you can keep tacking on additional probabilities under the assumption that they are additional independent requirements for intelligent life. In some cases you might be right--but the end result is you can get any answer you please, more or less.

I'll never see honesty like that from an IDer, Dave.

;)

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
stevestory



Posts: 10399
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 21 2007,14:24   

Rather than argue with you about your fine-tuner religious beliefs--probably the least productive thing I can imagine doing--I'd be interested in hearing what you think the IDers/Creationists are going to do, post-Dover, in terms of political strategy. We've pondered the question here before, with little success. Are they going to promote summer bible-'science' camps? Focus on more religious 3rd world countries? Change their name and try the courts again?

   
heddle



Posts: 124
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 21 2007,15:59   

Steve S,


 
Quote
Rather than argue with you about your fine-tuner religious beliefs--probably the least productive thing I can imagine doing--I'd be interested in hearing what you think the IDers/Creationists are going to do, post-Dover, in terms of political strategy. We've pondered the question here before, with little success. Are they going to promote summer bible-'science' camps? Focus on more religious 3rd world countries? Change their name and try the courts again?


I have no clue. I can only hope that they stop embarrassing Christianity via unbiblical ends-justify-the-means politicking and their incessant victimhood-esque whining. While I can hope, I’m not optimistic.

Actually, what I'd like to see, short of their going away altogether, is that they redirect their energies to improving science education in Christian schools. I am appalled when I look at the science offerings at many Christian colleges.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 21 2007,16:05   

Quote (heddle @ May 21 2007,15:59)
Steve S,


   
Quote
Rather than argue with you about your fine-tuner religious beliefs--probably the least productive thing I can imagine doing--I'd be interested in hearing what you think the IDers/Creationists are going to do, post-Dover, in terms of political strategy. We've pondered the question here before, with little success. Are they going to promote summer bible-'science' camps? Focus on more religious 3rd world countries? Change their name and try the courts again?


I have no clue. I can only hope that they stop embarrassing Christianity via unbiblical ends-justify-the-means politicking and their incessant victimhood-esque whining. While I can hope, I’m not optimistic.

Actually, what I'd like to see, short of their going away altogether, is that they redirect their energies to improving science education in Christian schools. I am appalled when I look at the science offerings at many Christian colleges.


Dave Heddle in strong running for Post-of-the-Week!

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
stevestory



Posts: 10399
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 21 2007,17:38   

Quote (heddle @ May 21 2007,16:59)
Steve S,


   
Quote
Rather than argue with you about your fine-tuner religious beliefs--probably the least productive thing I can imagine doing--I'd be interested in hearing what you think the IDers/Creationists are going to do, post-Dover, in terms of political strategy. We've pondered the question here before, with little success. Are they going to promote summer bible-'science' camps? Focus on more religious 3rd world countries? Change their name and try the courts again?


I have no clue. I can only hope that they stop embarrassing Christianity via unbiblical ends-justify-the-means politicking and their incessant victimhood-esque whining. While I can hope, I’m not optimistic.

Actually, what I'd like to see, short of their going away altogether, is that they redirect their energies to improving science education in Christian schools. I am appalled when I look at the science offerings at many Christian colleges.

For several years I paid the rent by tutoring high school and college kids in math and science. Once, I briefly had a client in Biology who went to that christian high school in north Raleigh. They were using Biology: God's Living Creation. I recommend flipping through that book, or reading excerpts on the internet, if you don't know what Heddle means when he says he's appalled. Yikes.

   
stevestory



Posts: 10399
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 21 2007,17:48   

I don't know how many biblical literalists there are. I've seen estimates from around 30% to as high as 63% of the American public. In whichever case, as long as a large fraction of Americans are biblical literalists, there will be a strong and embarrassing anti-science movement.

   
stevestory



Posts: 10399
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 21 2007,17:50   

Quote (Richardthughes @ May 21 2007,17:05)
Quote (heddle @ May 21 2007,15:59)
Steve S,


     
Quote
Rather than argue with you about your fine-tuner religious beliefs--probably the least productive thing I can imagine doing--I'd be interested in hearing what you think the IDers/Creationists are going to do, post-Dover, in terms of political strategy. We've pondered the question here before, with little success. Are they going to promote summer bible-'science' camps? Focus on more religious 3rd world countries? Change their name and try the courts again?


I have no clue. I can only hope that they stop embarrassing Christianity via unbiblical ends-justify-the-means politicking and their incessant victimhood-esque whining. While I can hope, I’m not optimistic.

Actually, what I'd like to see, short of their going away altogether, is that they redirect their energies to improving science education in Christian schools. I am appalled when I look at the science offerings at many Christian colleges.


Dave Heddle in strong running for Post-of-the-Week!

Heddle's is a good post. It reminds me that although I'm merely amused by the ID wackos, if I were a christian, I'd be downright pissed at them. Salvador above all.

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 21 2007,18:33   

Dave Heddle in strong running for Post-of-the-Week![/quote]
Heddle's is a good post. It reminds me that although I'm merely amused by the ID wackos, if I were a christian, I'd be downright pissed at them. Salvador above all.[/quote]


If Salvador did not exist, Heddle would have to create him.




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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
stevestory



Posts: 10399
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 22 2007,13:45   

Dispatches from the Culture Wars: The Gonzales Persecution Case Weakens

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 24 2007,15:10   

Let us all bask in the warm glow of IDers' ability to shoot themselves in the foot time and time again:

Quote
According to a news item in Nature, Gonzalez is appealing on grounds that his support of ID is part of his religious beliefs, and the university is guilty of religious discrimination against him.


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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
heddle



Posts: 124
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 24 2007,15:29   

Arden,

I know what you are saying--but speaking purely theoretically, suppose:

P1) Gonzalez believes ID is science
P2) ISU believes ID is religion
P3) ISU denies tenure on the basis of Gozalez's ID

Would it then follow that it is outrageous to claim that the university based its decision on religious grounds?

I think it's an interesting question. I don't really have an opinion.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 24 2007,15:45   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ May 24 2007,15:10)
Let us all bask in the warm glow of IDers' ability to shoot themselves in the foot time and time again:

 
Quote
According to a news item in Nature, Gonzalez is appealing on grounds that his support of ID is part of his religious beliefs, and the university is guilty of religious discrimination against him.

That must be a mistake as the man in question is a fellow of the DI ,I understand, and if anybody would know if ID is religion it would be one of them.

And anyway, that would contradict what DaveSCot, King of the Tards has to say about it
Quote
I understand that Guillermo doesn’t believe ID is religion but his personal opinion has no bearing and he needn’t make any statement that he personally believes ID is not religion. He only needs to argue that ID is religion in the opinion of federal courts. If the justice system considers ID religion then Guillermo had his civil rights violated by Iowa State University. There can be only two outcomes - the court hearing Guillermo holds that ID is not religion and thus his civil rights were not violated (a win for ID) or the court holds that his civil rights were violated and rules that universities cannot use ID to discriminate against faculty on that basis (also a win for ID). I don’t see any downside. Either way ID comes out better for it.

I started to go through and add highlights, but simpler to bold it all. Link
And then there is this

Which was easier to copy then quote :)
Link
And then there is this classic, easier with teh google highlighting

Link
I mean, if a fellow of the Discovery institution says ID is RELIGION, then, well, who am I to argue? Appeal on religious discrimination grounds indeed.
Here's a nice one

Quote
The people that are really bringing religion into the ID/evolution debate are atheists.
Link
And on Dover
Quote
The trial is about whether what is being taught at the Dover HS that is religion or not. If it’s religion it’s a violation of the 1st amendment establishment clause.

Same thread
Quote
Teaching religion may be unconstitutional but teaching nonsense isn’t. It doesn’t matter one iota whether ID is valid science or not. All that matters is whether or not it’s an establishment of religion.

Quote
But the trial isn’t about science. ID doesn’t need to be science. It needs to be NOT religion and that’s all it needs to be. It could be zen basket weaving as long as it isn’t religion. The constitution doesn’t prohibit the government from making laws regarding the establishment of basket weaving. What we should really do is pan the science experts altogether and just use doctors of theology to testify that the ID in question is not religion.
Link
Hmm, better get those Zen basket weavers up to speed then DS!
And so on and so forth.

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 24 2007,16:03   

Quote (heddle @ May 24 2007,15:29)
Arden,

I know what you are saying--but speaking purely theoretically, suppose:

P1) Gonzalez believes ID is science
P2) ISU believes ID is religion
P3) ISU denies tenure on the basis of Gozalez's ID

Would it then follow that it is outrageous to claim that the university based its decision on religious grounds?

I think it's an interesting question. I don't really have an opinion.

Well, that begs several questions.

P1: It seems that if GG thinks ID is science, then that would kind of clash with his statement that being anti-ID is equivalent to being anti-religion. I don't know, tho, from GG's perspective, he might think ID is both science and religion at the same time. But it's a vacuous statement anyway: if he allows that ID is science, then ISU can counter that they denied tenure to GG for (among other reasons) his scientific views. Bye bye religious discrimination claims.

P2: except that ISU has clearly stated that several levels of the administration there had multiple reasons for not tenuring GG. It's been possible to tease out several things in GG's track record that would be enough to sink any tenure-track prof: not having any of his students finish their dissertations, coasting for several years on old postdoc research, not bringing in grant money. Thus, the burden of proof is on GG to prove that none of those reasons were at play and that it's all religious discrimination. Not a task I'd envy.

Of course, if GG sticks with the ID-is-religion tactic, it makes it that much harder for others who claim that ID has nothing to do with religion, obviously. So from ID's perspective, it seems to be a rather, uh, short-sighted tactic.

Frankly, the harder I think about it, the harder it is for me to see what exactly GG & the DI hope to accomplish here. I personally think it will be quite impossible for GG to successfully claim religious discrimination, so it's hard to see how any of this will benefit GG. The only angle I can see is that it's being played up for PR purposes.

As has been pointed out many times now, the DI creating this uproar has made GG completely radioactive -- I can't imagine anyone this side of Liberty or Bob Jones picking him up now. Is that something that GG wanted?

Also, another dimension that's only been discussed a little is that it's very hard to imagine that GG didn't see this coming for several years, which makes it look like (a) GG didn't see the point in trying to rectify his situation when he could, and (b) there's something pretty disingenuous about his reaction now. In other words, maybe after Privileged Planet, he just decided to run out the clock at ISU and to deliberately cause a spectacle when ISU turned him down. Perhaps he figured being a martyr/hero to the DI looked like a pretty good option, regardless of what it did to his career.

Either way, there seem to have been several factors in GG's career at ISU that would have sunk hundreds of other profs, and so I'm not too sympathetic about the claim that GG deserves to be judged for tenure on a whole different set of rules from everyone else. As someone pointed out (you? Harbison?), tenure is best viewed as a privilege, not a right.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 24 2007,16:16   

Ah, Dave Scot, self-taught jailhouse lawyer.

Given Dave's uncanny ability to predict how Dover would go ('we own the courts, now, too'/'Judge Jones won't want to cut his career off at the knees'), we should take him very seriously now.

Let's look at this tard a little closer:

Quote
I understand that Guillermo doesn’t believe ID is religion but his personal opinion has no bearing and he needn’t make any statement that he personally believes ID is not religion. He only needs to argue that ID is religion in the opinion of federal courts. If the justice system considers ID religion then Guillermo had his civil rights violated by Iowa State University. There can be only two outcomes - the court hearing Guillermo holds that ID is not religion and thus his civil rights were not violated (a win for ID) or the court holds that his civil rights were violated and rules that universities cannot use ID to discriminate against faculty on that basis (also a win for ID). I don’t see any downside. Either way ID comes out better for it.


Sooo... let me disentangle this: ID isn't religion, and GG doesn't think it is, but he should claim it IS religion in the courts (isn't that bearing false witness?), so that he can either (a) win a case of religious discrimination, or (b) LOSE his case, thus 'proving' ID is not religion.

No, Dave, you tard, there's a third choice: ISU points out all the other reasons for not tenuring GG, GG's claims of religious discrimination get laughed out of court, GG stays unemployed, and the DI goes on record as saying ID is religion.

Message to Dave: haven't you been convinced by now that ID has been very ill-served by depending on lawsuits instead of research?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 24 2007,16:28   

ALRIGHT SHUT UP AND LISTEN CAUSE I'M TALKING, ADREN CHATTERBOX. IDISTS DO PLENTLY OR RESEARCH.

1) TEH GOOGLE.

EVERY DAY I PUT "INTELLIGENT", "DESIGN" AND "SCIENCE" INTO TEH GOOGLE AND REPORT BACK TO BILL. TEH GOOGLE IS PEER REVIEWED, RIGHT? SAL TAUGHT ME TO PUT QOUTES AROUND "INTELLIGENT DESIGN" SO THE GOOGLE LOOKS FOR THEM BOTH TOGTHER. I THINK THIS PROBABLY DOUBLED THE CSI OF MY SEARCH AND VIOLATED SLOT A BIT MORE

2) BIOLOGIC LABS.

SADLY, DUE TO BUDGETARY CUT BACKS WE'RE FOCUSING ON THE MUCHROOM CULTIVATION IN TEH IMMOBILE DESIGN CENTER. I'VE BEAN GROWING MUSHROOMS FOR 2 YEARS NOW AND HOW MANY HAVE EVOLVED INTO MONKEYS? GO ON HAVE A GUESS.



ZERO.



ANOTHER HOMO LIBERALIST CHURCG BURNIGN STERNBERGER OF A MYTH ASSPLOADED.

3) TEH BIBLE.

SAL TELLS ME ITS COMPLETELY CORRECT IN ALL BATS AND WHERE IT DOESN'T JIVE (DENYSE TOLD ME TO USE SNAPPY HIP LANGUAGE LIKE JIVE, WHICH SHE TELLS ME "OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE" IS SUCH A BIG SUCESS") WHERE WAS I THAT COMA BIT WAS TOO LONG.. OH YEAH IF THEY DONT JIVE WITH REALITY THEN ITS BEACUSE WE NEED TO MADE SCIENCE WORK TO AGREE WITH TEH BIBLE OR PERHAPS SATAN AND HIS MINIONS HAVE INTERVENED.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 24 2007,17:04   

Quote (Richardthughes @ May 24 2007,16:28)
(DENYSE TOLD ME TO USE SNAPPY HIP LANGUAGE LIKE JIVE, WHICH SHE TELLS ME "OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE" IS SUCH A BIG SUCESS")

No, she said that OE was "Such a big suck fest".

Clean out your ears.

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
stevestory



Posts: 10399
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 24 2007,17:10   

Quote (Lou FCD @ May 24 2007,18:04)
Quote (Richardthughes @ May 24 2007,16:28)
(DENYSE TOLD ME TO USE SNAPPY HIP LANGUAGE LIKE JIVE, WHICH SHE TELLS ME "OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE" IS SUCH A BIG SUCESS")

No, she said that OE was "Such a big suck fest".

Clean out your ears.

How is OE doing these days?

Quote
Recent comments

   * marketing?
     4 days 29 min ago
   * Wiki Bias
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   * content
     6 days 6 hours ago
   * Huh, odd. There "should" be
     6 days 7 hours ago
   * and the real posters too...
     1 week 13 hours ago
   * Sorry To Hear That
     3 weeks 1 day ago


Oh.

   
silverspoon



Posts: 123
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 24 2007,17:31   

If GG won a court case over this based on religious discrimination, wouldn’t that ruling be helpful in future cases where ID proponents were claiming it as science?

If that’s the case I almost hope he wins.  :O

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Grand Poobah of the nuclear mafia

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 24 2007,18:20   

Quote
If GG won a court case over this based on religious discrimination, wouldn’t that ruling be helpful in future cases where ID proponents were claiming it as science?


damn fine question, and one that everybody was at least thinking.

It would sure seem to be the case, if it weren't already blatantly obvious from Kitzmiller (which it is).

we all know the IDiots wanna have their cake and eat it too, but it just don't work that way.

In fact, reversing your question:

Since Dover conclusively proved that ID ISN'T science, it would seem that the ONLY way for GG to challenge the tenure decision IS by claiming ID to be religion.

BTW, it doesn't matter.  If he brings the ID issue up as a reason for tenure denial at all, he'll lose anyway.

bottom line:

he plans to be a martry and make money that way, just like Dembski.

He has no real desire for tenure at this point.

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 27 2007,11:40   

O'Leary:
Quote
Here at Uncommon Descent, Bill Dembski points out an instance where Hector Avalos, an atheist religion prof who is Gonzalez’s nemesis, appears to have coyly inflated a member magazine article into a journal article on astronomy.

Link
Erm, I thought that was all cleared up? Heh.
Quote
Of course, Avalos is entitled to his opinions - on some of which I may well dine out, so I certainly don’t want the little crank suppressed on that account. Besides, the Bible always changes more lives when people try to suppress it.

Even the loons at UD generally ignore her. 0 comments is typical for O'Leary nowdays.

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 27 2007,15:56   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ May 27 2007,11:40)
O'Leary: Here at Uncommon Descent, Bill Dembski points out an instance where Hector Avalos, an atheist religion prof



Besides, the Bible always changes more lives when people try to suppress it.

But, ya know, ID ain't about religion.  No sirree Bob.  It's just them lying atheist darwinists (and activist judges) who say it is.  It ain't based on no particular religious doctrines or sources, no way, no how.

(snicker)  (giggle)

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
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stevestory



Posts: 10399
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2007,15:21   

Some new info from Panda's Thumb:

Quote
   The Des Moines Register reported Thursday that university records showed that Gonzalez had raised significantly less research and grant money than his peers in the Department of Physics and Astronomy.

   Iowa State has sponsored $22,661 in outside grant money for Gonzalez since July 2001, records show. In that same time period, Gonzalez’s peers in physics and astronomy secured an average of $1.3 million by the time they were granted tenure.


Jesus.

linky goodness

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2007,15:27   

Quote (stevestory @ June 02 2007,15:21)
Some new info from Panda's Thumb:

Quote
   The Des Moines Register reported Thursday that university records showed that Gonzalez had raised significantly less research and grant money than his peers in the Department of Physics and Astronomy.

   Iowa State has sponsored $22,661 in outside grant money for Gonzalez since July 2001, records show. In that same time period, Gonzalez’s peers in physics and astronomy secured an average of $1.3 million by the time they were granted tenure.


Jesus.

linky goodness

Bwahahahahahahahahaha.


Come on DI, sponsor your man!

[DI] Oh Noes!!!!!1111 U can only has monies 4 bringing childrens 2 Jebus/ K bai [/DI]

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stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2007,19:05   



http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/06/the_swooning_begins.php

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2007,19:15   

Best comment ever?

http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....-123511

Quote


jpark320

06/02/2007

5:58 pm
Hopefully this will be the catalyst to expose Atheist/Secular humanist for who they are…

Or the Rapture -

Not a good sign for any person who denies Darwin and wants to go to academia


Or the rapture! I wet my undercrackers.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2007,20:34   

Ooh, check out FTK's inane PT comments on this!:

Quote
Maybe he wasn’t up to par, but it doesn’t matter.

No matter WHAT he did, after he became associated with the ID movement he was finished.

Who ya kiddin?


Translated: "okay, I admit there were loads of totally valid reasons not to tenure him, but you STILL discriminated against him because you don't like ID!"

Wow. Just, wow.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2007,20:38   

Quote (stevestory @ June 02 2007,19:05)


http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/06/the_swooning_begins.php

Who is 'Galapagos Finch', and is (s)he responsible for the swell graphics?

Bet that image made Heddle wince.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
stevestory



Posts: 10399
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2007,20:42   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 02 2007,21:34)
Ooh, check out FTK's inane PT comments on this!:

 
Quote
Maybe he wasn’t up to par, but it doesn’t matter.

No matter WHAT he did, after he became associated with the ID movement he was finished.

Who ya kiddin?


Translated: "okay, I admit there were loads of totally valid reasons not to tenure him, but you STILL discriminated against him because you don't like ID!"

Wow. Just, wow.

Because my powers are useless at Panda's Thumb and I can't see her IP address over there I was kinda hoping that comment wasn't made by FTK, but somebody spoofing her to make her look bad.

Assuming the comment is real for the sake of argument, I'm not sure what she'd want us to do. Affirmative Action for ID supporters who don't qualify for jobs?

   
silverspoon



Posts: 123
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2007,20:47   

Quote (Richardthughes @ June 02 2007,19:15)
Best comment ever?

http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....-123511

 
Quote


jpark320

06/02/2007

5:58 pm
Hopefully this will be the catalyst to expose Atheist/Secular humanist for who they are…

Or the Rapture -

Not a good sign for any person who denies Darwin and wants to go to academia


Or the rapture! I wet my undercrackers.

jpark320 deserves cash for that one. What a comedic genius.

--------------
Grand Poobah of the nuclear mafia

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2007,20:47   

Quote (stevestory @ June 02 2007,20:42)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 02 2007,21:34)
Ooh, check out FTK's inane PT comments on this!:

 
Quote
Maybe he wasn’t up to par, but it doesn’t matter.

No matter WHAT he did, after he became associated with the ID movement he was finished.

Who ya kiddin?


Translated: "okay, I admit there were loads of totally valid reasons not to tenure him, but you STILL discriminated against him because you don't like ID!"

Wow. Just, wow.

Because my powers are useless at Panda's Thumb and I can't see her IP address over there I was kinda hoping that comment wasn't made by FTK, but somebody spoofing her to make her look bad.

Well, I suppose we should ask her if that gem was hers, but if it was a parody, it was certainly created by someone who's completely mastered her style...

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2007,20:52   

Quote
Assuming the comment is real for the sake of argument, I'm not sure what she'd want us to do. Affirmative Action for ID supporters who don't qualify for jobs?


I suppose so. I guess FTK thinks that universities should tenure unqualified ID supporters just to be nice.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Jasper



Posts: 76
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2007,21:03   

I don't think that was Forthekids on PT.

The "Who ya kiddin?" line is one used by a particularly prolific commenter who has been polluting the discourse under various screen names at RedStateRabble, several different ScienceBlogs, and kcfs.org.

  
stevestory



Posts: 10399
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2007,21:04   

It would be interesting to try FTK's argument in court.

Lawyer: "Your honor, maybe my client is guilty. But even if he wasn't, that meanie prosecutor would Still want to convict him!"
Judge: "Did you even go to law school?"

Jasper:
Yeah, it's probably that Emmanuel Goldstein jerk.

   
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2007,22:02   

Sigh...it wasn't me.  No doubt it was the Goldstein crew...sounds just like him/them.  This is about the 5th time someone has alerted me to someone ~borrowing~ my name.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
stevestory



Posts: 10399
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2007,22:10   

The Goldstein guy is banned for numerous violations, and especially for stealing names. He's one of the worst creationists.

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 2137
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2007,22:11   

Quote
If GG won a court case over this based on religious discrimination, wouldn’t that ruling be helpful in future cases where ID proponents were claiming it as science?

I don't think so.  Gonzalez would have to show that his "religion" of IDC prevented him from writing grants, or publishing papers and inspite of that the government had an obligation to give him a lifetime (well paided) job.

I doubt he could make that argument work, and the DI would drop him cold.

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 02 2007,22:12   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 02 2007,20:34)
Ooh, check out FTK's inane PT comments on this!:

Quote
Maybe he wasn’t up to par, but it doesn’t matter.

No matter WHAT he did, after he became associated with the ID movement he was finished.

Who ya kiddin?


Translated: "okay, I admit there were loads of totally valid reasons not to tenure him, but you STILL discriminated against him because you don't like ID!"

Wow. Just, wow.

Y'know my first thought about that was:

"Yeah, but it could have been a real bunch of Marines prayin' like that."

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 03 2007,08:54   

Quote (Ftk @ June 02 2007,22:02)
Sigh...it wasn't me.  No doubt it was the Goldstein crew...sounds just like him/them.  This is about the 5th time someone has alerted me to someone ~borrowing~ my name.

Hey FTK, didn't you go storming out all in a huff?

Why are you back?

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 03 2007,13:33   

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ June 03 2007,08:54)
Quote (Ftk @ June 02 2007,22:02)
Sigh...it wasn't me.  No doubt it was the Goldstein crew...sounds just like him/them.  This is about the 5th time someone has alerted me to someone ~borrowing~ my name.

Hey FTK, didn't you go storming out all in a huff?

Why are you back?

SHE NEVER SCAPED TEH SEXI_HAWT ZONE.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
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"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
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Arden Chatfield



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(Permalink) Posted: June 03 2007,14:02   

Quote (Richardthughes @ June 03 2007,13:33)
Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ June 03 2007,08:54)
Quote (Ftk @ June 02 2007,22:02)
Sigh...it wasn't me.  No doubt it was the Goldstein crew...sounds just like him/them.  This is about the 5th time someone has alerted me to someone ~borrowing~ my name.

Hey FTK, didn't you go storming out all in a huff?

Why are you back?

SHE NEVER SCAPED TEH SEXI_HAWT ZONE.

I heard about that. It's supposed to be right outside Funkytown.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 03 2007,19:01   

Quote (stevestory @ June 02 2007,19:05)


http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/06/the_swooning_begins.php

Where is Avalos' dunce cap?

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Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 03 2007,19:08   

http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....-123659

Quote
I don’t know that this figured in to the tenure denial, but it can’t have helped that GG is the “wrong kind” of Hispanic (Cuban) and Hector Avalos is the “right kind” (Mexican). The secular left has no use for the former, while celebrating the latter.


CAN I HAS FOREIGNERZ? NO. RONG KIND. BAI.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
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Arden Chatfield



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(Permalink) Posted: June 03 2007,19:15   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ June 03 2007,19:01)
Quote (stevestory @ June 02 2007,19:05)


http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/06/the_swooning_begins.php

Where is Avalos' dunce cap?

Not being a dunce, I would imagine he doesn't need one.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
stevestory



Posts: 10399
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 04 2007,19:42   

Allen MacNeill makes an informed comment at PT

Quote
Comment #182105

Posted by Allen MacNeill on June 4, 2007 7:31 PM (e)

Having been a quasi-tenured senior lecturer at a major research university for over 30 years, I can tell you that (surprise, surprise) it ultimately comes down to money. The emphasis on research grants is primary because that’s what pays the bills. At my institution, the university rakes off over 50% of every dollar that comes in via grant money, calling it “overhead.” And indeed, that’s exactly what it is; paying for laboratory construction and maintenance, equipment purchase and maintenance, paying utility bills, etc. Lecture halls, libraries, and so forth are at least partially funded via student tuition and alumni giving, but research is virtually entirely funded via grant money. At a university like mine, that means that if professors don’t bring in enough grant money to support themselves and their graduate students, that support comes out of the grant support “overhead” earned by their colleagues.

This means that when people come up for tenure review, the amount of grant support they bring into their department is the first and most important thing that everyone considers. “Dead weight” is literally that; it’s a kind of parasitism on the department that can make or break it. If, as the public record shows, Gonzalez brought in minimal grant funding (and the bulk of that was in the form of support from his department/university), while other department members brought in much more, he has literally been parasitizing the other members of his department when he should have been doing exactly the opposite.

This is why it takes several years to make a tenure decision. Department members want to be able to identify trends, so that they can predict what a prospective tenure candidate will do in the future. On the basis of his performance over the critical six-year assistant professor period, Gonzalez showed every indication of being a financial burden on his department, without any corresponding benefits.

If his research had been outstanding (despite low grant funding) and reflected credit on the rest of his department, they might grant him tenure anyway, because that would reflect credit on them and therefore make grant funding more likely for them. This is why people like Isaac Asimov are kept on the faculty of their universities, despite bringing in virtually no grant funding (indeed, Asimov was promoted from associate to full professor, without pay but without debate).

That was clearly not the case with Gonzalez, who made the rest of his department look like a bunch of creationist yahoos. My guess is that the vote against granting tenure was virtually unanimous, and that they are all heaving a great sigh of relief, especially as the professional politicians at the Discovery Instititute daily confirm all of their worst fears.

His department dodged a bullet, IOW, and I’m sure they’re happy they had the opportunity to do so. Gonzalez, OTOH, has been crucified, but by the Discovery Instititute, not his department. The best Gonzalez can hope for now is that the Discovery Instititute can line up some kind of financial support that can provide for him and his family for the foreseeable future. Like Dembski, his career in mainstream academics is effectively over.

There’s an old lesson here; don’t rock the boat until you have tenure. Once you have tenure, generally the only way you can be removed is for malfeasance (which nowdays means having sex with one of your students or stealing departmental funds) or alienating a major contributor and having your departmental line removed from the budget as a result. “Academic freedom,” in other words, is mostly for tenured faculty members and non-tenure-track academics.

Gonzalez abandoned a golden opportunity to establish himself as a credible researcher, apparently prefering to build a career as a guiding light of the “intelligent design” movement. That was a serious strategic error on his part, and he has paid the price. If Gonzalez were in theoretical physics or mathematics, he could still go on to make a name for himself, as he could do them anywhere (a Swiss patent clerk did just that, and not without some midling success). However, Gonzalez’s chosen field requires telescope time and access to high-speed computers to analyze the data obtained from telescope observations. Both of these are now out of reach for him, probably forever. Bad career move, and worse, because now the only people who will pay him anything are the ID supporters, but his academic credibility has now been permanently damaged, with no prospect of earning it back via observational astronomy.

Which means that there is now only one tenured academic in a mainstream university doing even quasi-scientific work in “intelligent design theory” - Michael Behe, at Lehigh University. He has tenure, of course, and so until he retires he can essentially do what he wants…unless he so alienates a major source of funding to his department that the administration decides to eliminate his budget line. The trend for “doing science” among IDers is therefore steeply downhill, and talented people with an open mind and curiosity about the possibilities of design in nature should be re-thinking their career tracks. Showing support for ID is now the kiss of death in mainstream academics, and only those very few who already have tenure and are in secure positions can still publically do so.

As we know from past experience, this does not mean that the ID political machine (as exemplified by the Discovery Institute) will shut down. On the contrary, it will shift into high gear, pumping out more propaganda for as long as its financial supporters will fund it. But as far as penetrating mainstream academics, it’s all over…for now. They will be back, of course, but it will take a generation or more, as it did for ID to take up the cause of “scientific creationism.”

In the interests of full disclosure, I am a non-tenure track professional teacher at a major research university. This means that I come up for reappointment every five years, and as long as I’m doing a decent job teaching, I get reappointed. This leaves me free to do what I want with my free time, as I’m not required to do research. I do some anyway, without the usual restrictions placed on professors.

   
stevestory



Posts: 10399
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 05 2007,16:30   

Interesting bit from Ed Brayton

Quote
Ask yourself this: if an astronomy professor seeking tenure spent his time writing popular books advocating astrology rather than bringing in grants to do actual astronomy research, would a university be justified in not giving him tenure? If so, tell me what the difference is. The only difference I see is that, unlike ID, astrology actually makes specific and testable predictions (which inevitably fail to come true, of course).

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4902
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2007,00:08   

Ran across this testimony from Dr. Scott Minnich, DI Fellow, in the KvD trial:

Quote

[336]Q. What is significant about research support for a scientist?

[337]A. Well, to be successful and to do experiments you've got to have extramural support and, you know, it's to be likened to running a small business within a research community. You know, I have to pay my graduate students, technicians, pay for supplies, animal care, and there's overhead associated with it as well. So funding is very important.


It's very important for Minnich, I guess because he has it, and completely unimportant for Gonzalez, again because he does not.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
JonF



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Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2007,17:34   

I was half-watching Moon Mysteries on Naked Science on  the National Geographic channel, when "award-winning astronomer Guillermo Gonzales" showed up, discussing his calculations of the energy requirements to fling rocks from the Earth to the Moon, and the likelihood of asteroid impacts causing that.

  
JAM



Posts: 517
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2007,11:34   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 13 2007,14:47)
Refusing to grant tenure to Guillermo Gonzalez is clearly ideologically/politically motivated. He has at least 55 publications in his field according to ISI Web of Knowledge, which is more than his most vociferous critics have accomplished.

But how many of those were from his time at Iowa State? A lot of pubs before the first independent position and very few after taking that position is damning.

And how much did he bring in in grants? More to the point, how much indirect?

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2007,11:45   

Quote (JAM @ July 17 2007,11:34)
   
Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 13 2007,14:47)
Refusing to grant tenure to Guillermo Gonzalez is clearly ideologically/politically motivated. He has at least 55 publications in his field according to ISI Web of Knowledge, which is more than his most vociferous critics have accomplished.

But how many of those were from his time at Iowa State? A lot of pubs before the first independent position and very few after taking that position is damning.

And how much did he bring in in grants? More to the point, how much indirect?

Well, now you're talking over the heads of the whiners, discussing indirect costs. Maybe we should ask Dr. Dr. D. how much IDC he gets with his funding from the DI, just to see if he understands the concept.

Oops, I forgot. We can't do that. We're with the banned.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 17 2007,12:40   

Caught this at Science Blogs via The Onion, and thought it was appropriate, and perhaps could shed some light on childhood events that might have led up to Gonzalez's failure to achieve tenure:

http://scienceblogs.com/worldsf....esn.php

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
JAM



Posts: 517
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 18 2007,00:26   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ July 17 2007,11:45)
Quote (JAM @ July 17 2007,11:34)
And how much did he bring in in grants? More to the point, how much indirect?

Well, now you're talking over the heads of the whiners, discussing indirect costs. Maybe we should ask Dr. Dr. D. how much IDC he gets with his funding from the DI, just to see if he understands the concept.

Well, to give you an idea of the pervasiveness of administrators' concern with indirect costs, at my last institution, applying for a grant with <15% IDC required the prior approval of the president.

I suspect that the DI pays 0% overhead.

Maybe that's a way that Lehigh can get Behe to leave...

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2197
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 18 2007,01:00   

Quote
And how much did he bring in in grants? More to the point, how much indirect?

Someone posted the numbers, and IIRC it wasn't enough to keep a single PhD student going.

Bob

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It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 18 2007,01:07   

Quote (Bob O'H @ July 18 2007,01:00)
Quote
And how much did he bring in in grants? More to the point, how much indirect?

Someone posted the numbers, and IIRC it wasn't enough to keep a single PhD student going.

Bob

What about a married one?


Badum Tsssch.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 19 2007,11:04   

Quote (JAM @ July 18 2007,00:26)
 Well, to give you an idea of the pervasiveness of administrators' concern with indirect costs, at my last institution, applying for a grant with <15% IDC required the prior approval of the president.

I suspect that the DI pays 0% overhead.

Maybe that's a way that Lehigh can get Behe to leave...

Frankly, I wish our administrators would pay more attention to those percentages. In recent years they have focused on trying to get earmarks (aka pork) for major projects, and ignored the fact that there is never any IDC funding for these porkers. Sometimes they had to use IDc generated from other projects to supplement the pork when the funding is not quite up to what they requested. In addition, when the pork runs out, we will have large buildings or new faculty members to pay for from our own funds.

And it will run out. Last November we elected a new Congressional rep, to replace the old one who never did a thing for his lesser constituents, but who had been instrumental in helping pork up this institution. The day after the election I happened to run into one of the upper admins involved in this project, and he was absolutely despondent. Note that the person who lost the election was a troglodyte, and that this admin had zero in common with the losing candidate politically, philosophically, or otherwise. Note that most sane people agree that pork is a bad idea, both from the political and scientific perspectives, and that this admin would probably have agreed that it was a bad idea before he drank this Kool-Aid. None of that mattered; he was just really worried because the trough had just dried up, and he was seriously bummed out.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 07 2008,12:03   

The Regents met today and our creationist friend has been DENIED by a vote of 7-1

Linky

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Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 07 2008,13:05   

Quote (Mr_Christopher @ Feb. 07 2008,12:03)
The Regents met today and our creationist friend has been DENIED by a vote of 7-1

Linky

Thank you for the post.  

Can't wait to see the UD and DI posts about it.

This is going to be a lot of fun!

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 07 2008,13:12   

Quote (J-Dog @ Feb. 07 2008,13:05)
Quote (Mr_Christopher @ Feb. 07 2008,12:03)
The Regents met today and our creationist friend has been DENIED by a vote of 7-1

Linky

Thank you for the post.  

Can't wait to see the UD and DI posts about it.

This is going to be a lot of fun!

Ask and thou shalt receive!!1!1!1!!!one!!!1!

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 07 2008,13:42   

Quote
They’ve denied his due process rights throughout this entire appeal,” Luskin continued.


Apparently Luskin is as confused about law as he is about science.

There are no "due process" provisions in the constitution regarding a tenure dispute at a university.  The meeting of regents is not a court of law.

I used to think Luskin was a clever propagandist, lately I'm convinced he's just dumb.

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Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 07 2008,14:11   

Quote (Mr_Christopher @ Feb. 07 2008,14:42)
Quote
They’ve denied his due process rights throughout this entire appeal,” Luskin continued.


Apparently Luskin is as confused about law as he is about science.

There are no "due process" provisions in the constitution regarding a tenure dispute at a university.  The meeting of regents is not a court of law.

I used to think Luskin was a clever propagandist, lately I'm convinced he's just dumb.

Lou's Law:

Never attribute to ignorance that which can in any way be explained by the rank dishonesty of the Discovery Institute or its fellows.

Hope that helps.

ETA:  Exception to Lou's Law:

Denyse O'Leary.

Edited by Lou FCD on Feb. 07 2008,15:19

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Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
Chayanov



Posts: 289
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 07 2008,14:48   

How nice of Luskin to decide to re-write all the laws of the United States. Did he fall on his head recently? We all knew he was a pathological liar, but lately he just seems stupid.

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Help! Marxist literary critics are following me!

  
PTET



Posts: 133
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 07 2008,15:36   

Quote (Mr_Christopher @ Feb. 07 2008,13:42)
Quote
They’ve denied his due process rights throughout this entire appeal,” Luskin continued.


Apparently Luskin is as confused about law as he is about science.

There are no "due process" provisions in the constitution regarding a tenure dispute at a university.  The meeting of regents is not a court of law.

I used to think Luskin was a clever propagandist, lately I'm convinced he's just dumb.

I have a friend who has some legal training... In a non-USican sense.

"Due Process" could apply in the vernacular to the University's own rules. If the University had not followed its own rules, this could be the basis for a lawsuit on the basis "Due Process" was not followed.

I have no idea whether Luskin has used the correct terminology under Americanian Law, but I imagine that's what he's alluding to.

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"It’s not worth the effort to prove the obvious. Ridiculous ideas don’t deserve our time.
Even the attempt to formulate ID is a generous accommodation." - ScottAndrews

   
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 07 2008,17:19   

The DI headline:
 
Quote
STELLAR ASTRONOMER GUILLERMO GONZALEZ DENIED FAIR HEARING BY IOWA STATE BOARD OF REGENTS
By: Discovery Staff
Discovery Institute
February 7, 2008...

Is "stellar" really the superlative you want to couple with "astronomer?"

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Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4902
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 07 2008,17:35   

I dunno... is Gonzalez Sol-ly interested in our primary?

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Occam's Toothbrush



Posts: 555
Joined: April 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 07 2008,17:38   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Feb. 07 2008,18:19)
The DI headline:
   
Quote
STELLAR ASTRONOMER GUILLERMO GONZALEZ DENIED FAIR HEARING BY IOWA STATE BOARD OF REGENTS
By: Discovery Staff
Discovery Institute
February 7, 2008...

Is "stellar" really the superlative you want to couple with "astronomer?"

"fair hearing" = "got what he wanted"

"unfair hearing" = "didn't get what he wanted"

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"Molecular stuff seems to me not to be biology as much as it is a more atomic element of life" --Creo nut Robert Byers
------
"You need your arrogant ass kicked, and I would LOVE to be the guy who does it. Where do you live?" --Anger Management Problem Concern Troll "Kris"

  
Chayanov



Posts: 289
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 07 2008,17:43   

Stellar astronomer? I thought he was a privileged planet astronomer.

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Help! Marxist literary critics are following me!

  
Henry J



Posts: 4792
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 07 2008,22:17   

A stellar astronomer would be one who prefers studying stars over studying planets or gas clouds. :p

Henry

  
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2008,10:16   

Luskin and GG sittin in a tree

w-h-i-n-i-n-g

It's a radio interview!  GG says he's so mad he hopes he doesn't "sin"  (like let a curse word slip?)

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Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2008,11:01   

Quote (Mr_Christopher @ Feb. 13 2008,10:16)
Luskin and GG sittin in a tree

w-h-i-n-i-n-g

It's a radio interview!  GG says he's so mad he hopes he doesn't "sin"  (like let a curse word slip?)

Beautiful!  This has GOT to reinforce the tenure committee's decision.

Few things worse than sitting in a meeting with a sanctimonious little prig.  Bullet Dodged.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2008,11:56   

Quote (Henry J @ Feb. 07 2008,22:17)
A stellar astronomer would be one who prefers studying stars over studying planets or gas clouds. :p

Henry

He should write: "ID: a black hole for knowledge"

edited!

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 10 2008,09:22   

From Ed Brayton's Blog - The latest on GG - The World's Biggest Martyar.

WARNING!!! - DISCONNECT ALL IRONY MACHINES BEFORE VIEWING.

"Why is this ironic? Take a look at the Wikipedia entry for Grove City College:

   Since 1963, the American Association of University Professors, an organization that represents the interests of college professors, has placed Grove City under censure for violations of tenure and academic freedom. In fact, Grove City has the distinction of having been on the AAUP's list of censured administrations longer than any other college that is currently censured. In its report, the AAUP Investigative Committee at Grove City concluded that "the absence of due process [in the dismissal of professors at Grove City] raises...doubts regarding the academic security of any persons who may hold appointment at Grove City College under existing administrative practice. These doubts are of an order of magnitude which obliges us to report them to the academic profession at large."

http://scienceblogs.com/dispatc....job.php

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 10 2008,09:39   

Quote (J-Dog @ July 10 2008,09:22)
From Ed Brayton's Blog - The latest on GG - The World's Biggest Martyar.

WARNING!!! - DISCONNECT ALL IRONY MACHINES BEFORE VIEWING.

"Why is this ironic? Take a look at the Wikipedia entry for Grove City College:

   Since 1963, the American Association of University Professors, an organization that represents the interests of college professors, has placed Grove City under censure for violations of tenure and academic freedom. In fact, Grove City has the distinction of having been on the AAUP's list of censured administrations longer than any other college that is currently censured. In its report, the AAUP Investigative Committee at Grove City concluded that "the absence of due process [in the dismissal of professors at Grove City] raises...doubts regarding the academic security of any persons who may hold appointment at Grove City College under existing administrative practice. These doubts are of an order of magnitude which obliges us to report them to the academic profession at large."

http://scienceblogs.com/dispatc....job.php

Well, that AAUP censure is really old news; it is based on an incident that happened in 1963. The AAUP updates its list of censured administrations every year (published in their journal Academe and also on their web site). They contact the censured institutions annually and ask them if they would like to re-visit the incident. Not surprisingly for an incident this old, the administration (most of whom were in elementary school when it happened) doesn't really want to be bothered.

If the AAUP censure had any teeth, it might be a different story. But it doesn't, so censure actions that ancient just elicit shrugs from college administrators today. And yes, for the record, I am a member of AAUP.

Sadly, Baylor's shabby treatment of Dr. Dr. D., or ISU's treatment of GG, failed to trigger the AAUP radar. I wonder why...

Interestingly the list of censured administrations (link above) does seem to have a large number of colleges with "faith-based" missions. Perhaps PZ can pick up on that angle :-)

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 10 2008,10:26   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ July 10 2008,09:39)
http://scienceblogs.com/dispatc....job.php[/quote]
Well, that AAUP censure is really old news; it is based on an incident that happened in 1963. The AAUP updates its list of censured administrations every year (published in their journal Academe and also on their web site). They contact the censured institutions annually and ask them if they would like to re-visit the incident. Not surprisingly for an incident this old, the administration (most of whom were in elementary school when it happened) doesn't really want to be bothered.

If the AAUP censure had any teeth, it might be a different story. But it doesn't, so censure actions that ancient just elicit shrugs from college administrators today. And yes, for the record, I am a member of AAUP.

Sadly, Baylor's shabby treatment of Dr. Dr. D., or ISU's treatment of GG, failed to trigger the AAUP radar. I wonder why...

Interestingly the list of censured administrations (link above) does seem to have a large number of colleges with "faith-based" missions. Perhaps PZ can pick up on that angle :-)

Dave - Thanks for the perspective and update - I knew there was a reason to keep you around! :)

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 10 2008,19:47   

There is also the fact that Iowa State exists on the public dole and Grove City does not. Although, that does not keep some academicians from trying to establish their own fiefdoms at public institutions wherein they entertain the delusion that they are not accountable to the taxpayers.

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Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 10 2008,19:57   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ July 10 2008,17:47)
There is also the fact that Iowa State exists on the public dole and Grove City does not. Although, that does not keep some academicians from trying to establish their own fiefdoms at public institutions wherein they entertain the delusion that they are not accountable to the taxpayers.

So you're saying that Gonzalez should have been tenured because Iowa State receives government funds?

Is that your final answer, Robert?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 10 2008,20:51   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 10 2008,19:57)
Quote (Robert O'Brien @ July 10 2008,17:47)
There is also the fact that Iowa State exists on the public dole and Grove City does not. Although, that does not keep some academicians from trying to establish their own fiefdoms at public institutions wherein they entertain the delusion that they are not accountable to the taxpayers.

So you're saying that Gonzalez should have been tenured because Iowa State receives government funds?

Is that your final answer, Robert?

No, but they are obliged to justify their decision.

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Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 10 2008,20:53   

Alright ROB. I'm dead nice to fundies now, me. Ask Dave.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 10 2008,20:53   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ July 10 2008,18:51)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 10 2008,19:57)
Quote (Robert O'Brien @ July 10 2008,17:47)
There is also the fact that Iowa State exists on the public dole and Grove City does not. Although, that does not keep some academicians from trying to establish their own fiefdoms at public institutions wherein they entertain the delusion that they are not accountable to the taxpayers.

So you're saying that Gonzalez should have been tenured because Iowa State receives government funds?

Is that your final answer, Robert?

No, but they are obliged to justify their decision.

Um, Robert, you can do better than this. You're just mailing it in today.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 10 2008,21:01   

Quote (Richardthughes @ July 10 2008,18:53)
Alright ROB. I'm dead nice to fundies now, me. Ask Dave.



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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Henry J



Posts: 4792
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 10 2008,22:25   

What's the point of having irony machines if they always have to be disconnected before something ironic happens? ;)

Henry

  
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 10 2008,22:54   

Quote (Richardthughes @ July 10 2008,20:53)
Alright ROB. I'm dead nice to fundies now, me. Ask Dave.

Dave Heddle, my facebook friend, or AFDave?  :D

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Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 10 2008,22:57   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 10 2008,21:01)
Quote (Richardthughes @ July 10 2008,18:53)
Alright ROB. I'm dead nice to fundies now, me. Ask Dave.


That's precious but in case there is any doubt Rich is the orange cat.

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Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 10 2008,23:00   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ July 10 2008,22:57)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 10 2008,21:01)
Quote (Richardthughes @ July 10 2008,18:53)
Alright ROB. I'm dead nice to fundies now, me. Ask Dave.


That's precious but in case there is any doubt Rich is the orange cat.

HE PUT M&MS ON HIS TUMMY. :angry:

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Zarquon



Posts: 71
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 10 2008,23:36   

I always knew Bob stood for Bottom-o-bottom.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 10 2008,23:39   

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ July 10 2008,20:54)
Quote (Richardthughes @ July 10 2008,20:53)
Alright ROB. I'm dead nice to fundies now, me. Ask Dave.

Dave Heddle, my facebook friend, or AFDave?  :D

Dave Scot.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July