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Advocatus Diaboli Posts: 198 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: June 19 2008,08:22    Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ June 19 2008,05:45) DaveTard seyz       Quote For one thing ID explains how symbolic information came to be used in the machinery of life. How? ID explains how? Does it indeed? But Sal seyz       Quote You asked how, ID does not answer how…. So who's right? DaveTard Its a Tard/Off! This is so exciting that I had to tell my moonspeaking friends. -------------- I once thought that I made a mistake, but I was wrong. "I freely admit I’m a sociopath" - DaveScot "Most importanly, the facts are on the side of ID." - scordova "UD is the greatest website of all time." stevestory

k.e.. Posts: 5432 Joined: May 2007 (Permalink) Posted: June 19 2008,08:58    Quote (Advocatus Diaboli @ June 19 2008,16:22) Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ June 19 2008,05:45) DaveTard seyz       Quote For one thing ID explains how symbolic information came to be used in the machinery of life. How? ID explains how? Does it indeed? But Sal seyz       Quote You asked how, ID does not answer how…. So who's right? DaveTard Its a Tard/Off! This is so exciting that I had to tell my moonspeaking friends. hmmmmm everyone worked out a long time ago that ID can be any friggn' thing you want, just like god. All you have to do is mention some majic words. These of course were provided by Behe and El Bill, in the form of an acronym. Preferably one that has the hip ring of a tired TV show that only losers watched and could be pseudo-ed into a bird seed suet cake of any flavor. Twits from all over caused a flurry feeding on the dripping*. Super Sal can't even untangle one of Dembski's deep obscures, he suffers of course from spinelessness. The rest blindly follow chanting the meme, bashing their bibles on their skulls while they invade Europa. ID = Identity Politics for the dull and stupid. CSI = Who really gives a fuck, could be beauty could be nuke the bastards. IC= I see tarot cards in the witness box and ass trology is cloud braking. for moon speakers....dripping=suet=animal fat=super size grease=big mac religion=instant gratification for lard asses=clogged fundy brain -------------- "I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit "ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus "I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

oldmanintheskydidntdoit Posts: 4999 Joined: July 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 19 2008,09:03    Dr Dr Dembski is pushing his new book hard   Quote Let me suggest that we all move beyond such motive mongering and look at the actual scientific evidence that bears on the truth of Darwinian evolution and ID. To that end, you’ll do much better reading my new book with Sean McDowell, Understanding Intelligent Design (I just received my first author’s copy yesterday via UPS), than reading Giberson’s latest. My bold. Yes, lets look at the "scientific evidence" for ID. Oh, it's in a book rather then a peer-reviewed paper? Dr Dr then himself then digs a little deeper.   Quote Given the mental contortions required to remain a Christian once one embraces Darwin, Giberson is loathe to admit that Darwin is passe and the mental contortions were unnecessary. The Dr Dr then delivers what to him must appear as the knockout punch but in fact is just exposes his arrogrance   Quote Too bad Giberson didn’t have this book before his exposure to Darwin. In that case he might have been saved from Darwin rather than spending his days trying to save him. saving-darwin-whats-the-point/ -------------- I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies". FTK if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand Gordon Mullings

oldmanintheskydidntdoit Posts: 4999 Joined: July 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 19 2008,09:47    Dr Dr Dembski gets one thing right   Quote Soplo: I don’t wish Giberson ill, nor is that Amazon number bad (it may be better than all of my books right now), nor do Amazon numbers correlate precisely with impact. The problem is that Giberson is trying to save something that’s not worth saving. Think of Darwinism as an old dilapidated house. There comes a point when it’s not worth salvaging and needs to be razed. We’ve now reached that point, and you can quote me on it (given how the other side operates, I’m sure I will be quoted on it; this is one of the advantages of having one’s every step scrutinized). So Dr Dr, once the "house" has been razed to the ground what are you going to replace it with? I suspect alot of ID advocates will be sleeping under the stars soon... Dr Dr -------------- I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies". FTK if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand Gordon Mullings

midwifetoad Posts: 4003 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: June 19 2008,10:12    Quote “The neo-Darwinians would like us to believe that large evolutionary changes can result from a series of small events if there are enough of them. But if these events all lose information they can’t be the steps in the kind of evolution the neo-Darwin theory is supposed to explain, no matter how many mutations there are. Whoever thinks macroevolution can be made by mutations that lose information is like the merchant who lost a little money on every sale but thought he could make it up on volume.” Dr. Lee Spetner (Ph.D. Physics - MIT) I don't see how an algorithm that employs feedback automatically loses information. Isn't feedback a form of information? This is such a common line of argument, and I don't see the point cdesign proponentsists are trying to make. -------------- Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

midwifetoad Posts: 4003 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: June 19 2008,10:17    Maybe if I illustrated my point about feedback. Suppose you have a robotic car whose steering mechanism makes frequent, minute, random changes to the left or right. Suppose each small change of direction is followed by a yes or no response from a sensor that detects deviations from the center of the road. Perhaps this isn't as intuitive or efficient as having the sensor simply command a jog left or right, but I can't see that it would fail to work. -------------- Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

Kristine Posts: 3061 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 19 2008,10:37    Quote (dheddle @ June 19 2008,07:04) This is perhaps the only time I regret not being able to post on UD. Because, with my own ears, I have heard Miller say: "I am not a theistic evolutionist." I would like to see what the UDers have to say about that, since he is their TE bogeyman. They would have to turn on Collins, who is a much harder big-tent target. What does he say he is, then? Just curious. -------------- Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip? AtBC Poet Laureate "I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive "Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

oldmanintheskydidntdoit Posts: 4999 Joined: July 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 19 2008,10:39    Quote But if these events all lose information The key for me is the word "if". If all mutations lose "information" then sure, he might be right. IF they don't however it's a different story. As the IDiots cannot define information in a biological setting how can they be taken seriously? My favorite one is asking them to prove that there is any information at all in DNA. They always claim "this mutation caused a loss of information" but oddly can never say by how much and can also never manage to say, for example, how they are measuring that loss of information. And if "biological information" can be measured they should be able to put a figure on when "genetic entropy" will finish us all off just by measuring the "information" present in one generation to the next. Oddly that's not been done. -------------- I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies". FTK if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand Gordon Mullings

Lou FCD Posts: 5455 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 19 2008,11:26    Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ June 19 2008,10:03) Quote ...he might have been saved from Darwin... saving-darwin-whats-the-point/ Now there's an interesting turn of phrase. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Dr.GH Posts: 2333 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: June 19 2008,12:00    Well, Dr.Dr. did manage to interest me in buying a new book, the one by Giberson. -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

JohnW Posts: 3217 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 19 2008,12:02    Quote (Maya @ June 19 2008,05:17) DaveScot:   Quote I CAN prove that the genetic code is structured almost exactly like Morse code. There is nothing in the natural world except for DNA that is like Morse code. Why? Because both were designed by intelligent agents. Only intelligent agents create abstraction layers (symbols or tokens which represent something else). Only semi-intelligent agents create circular arguments.  (And I'd love to see the proof that DNA is isomorphic to Morse code.) -..  .-  ...-  .  ...  -.-.  ---  -    ..  ...    .-    .-.  .-  ...-  ..  -.  --.    ..-.  ..-  -.-.  -.-  .--  ..  - -------------- Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

dheddle Posts: 545 Joined: Sep. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: June 19 2008,12:18    Quote (Kristine @ June 19 2008,10:37) Quote (dheddle @ June 19 2008,07:04) This is perhaps the only time I regret not being able to post on UD. Because, with my own ears, I have heard Miller say: "I am not a theistic evolutionist." I would like to see what the UDers have to say about that, since he is their TE bogeyman. They would have to turn on Collins, who is a much harder big-tent target. What does he say he is, then? Just curious. Everyone asks me that, but I am sorry to say that when Miller made that statement, I didn't think to ask him. Bad heddle, bad! -------------- Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 19 2008,12:18    Quote (dogdidit @ June 19 2008,05:40)   Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 18 2008,23:12)       Quote (olegt @ June 18 2008,20:35) Dave counters:           Quote You need to get out more. George W. Bush is an ID advocate and he’s arguably the most powerful man in the world. Collins and Miller together don’t amount to a pimple on his butt. I know it’s harsh but scientists and academics in general don’t get a lot of respect outside their sheltered world. Heck, even Ann Coulter makes them look insignificant by each and every metric you named. DaveTard measures 'success' in science by what George Bush and Ann Coulter believe. Words fail me. DaveTard's life seems to be defined by man-crushes on higher echelon alpha males: Michael Dell, William Dembski, Craig Venter, George Bush, and Ann Coulter. It's a Marine thing. We wouldn't understand. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Tracy P. Hamilton Posts: 1239 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 19 2008,12:45    Quote (midwifetoad @ June 19 2008,10:17) Maybe if I illustrated my point about feedback. Suppose you have a robotic car whose steering mechanism makes frequent, minute, random changes to the left or right. Suppose each small change of direction is followed by a yes or no response from a sensor that detects deviations from the center of the road. Perhaps this isn't as intuitive or efficient as having the sensor simply command a jog left or right, but I can't see that it would fail to work. Bah,  you keep losing information about being offroad! -------------- "Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV "The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen "We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

midwifetoad Posts: 4003 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: June 19 2008,12:52    I just wonder how anyone thinks a change in the value of a parameter can be construed as a loss of information. I suppose they are always thinking in terms of The Fall, so any change is a degradation. What a cruddy metaphor by which to organize your worldview. -------------- Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

Tracy P. Hamilton Posts: 1239 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 19 2008,13:10    Quote (CeilingCat @ June 19 2008,00:06) Frank Beckwith shows why he didn't deserve tenure either:         Quote For example, who was the genius who told Gulliermo Gonzales it was a good idea to remain a DI fellow and publish his book before he earned tenure? Everyone knew that this was an accident waiting to happen. Imagine if GG had received wise advice from friends to resign his DI fellowship, back off the ID stuff, publish more peer-reviewed articles, apply for more grants, etc. Do you think he would be at Grove City College now? I doubt it. The only way Gonzales would have gotten tenure would have been if he'd: A: Come up with some kind of idea for a research project. B: Convinced granting agencies that the idea was worth funding. C: Convinced telescope operators that his idea was good enough to get telescope time. D: Had at least one grad student get his PhD. Like it or not, that's the way big time astronomy is done nowadays.  Since he did none of these things, he was justifiably let go by Iowa and is now comfortably ensconced at Grove City College, whose expectations are hopefully low enough to suit Dr. Gonzales' ID-quality intellect.   And every time Frank Beckwith fills our browsers with poorly researched IDtard, I realize that Baylor was right when they denied him tenure and they never should have gone back on their original decision. Now ceiling cat, even though it is you who is touching me in the icon, I must argue for leniency in Beckwith's case.  If Gonzales hadn't been messing around with irrelevancies, maybe he could have accomplished these action items. Francis Beckwith was the best legal ally ID had - a lawyer prof who made what I think is a constitutionally arguable point:  IF ID has a scientific basis independent of religion, it would be teachable below college level.  Poor Beckwith was fooled by the so-called experts, he thought that Behe and Dembski had something. -------------- "Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV "The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen "We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

Tom Ames Posts: 238 Joined: Dec. 2002 (Permalink) Posted: June 19 2008,13:23    Quote (midwifetoad @ June 19 2008,08:17) Maybe if I illustrated my point about feedback. Suppose you have a robotic car whose steering mechanism makes frequent, minute, random changes to the left or right. Suppose each small change of direction is followed by a yes or no response from a sensor that detects deviations from the center of the road. Perhaps this isn't as intuitive or efficient as having the sensor simply command a jog left or right, but I can't see that it would fail to work. Furthermore, you'd have a mechanism to increase information about the environment into the system: keeping track of your location over time would provide you with a map of the road. Excellent metaphor. -------------- -Tom Ames

Bob O'H Posts: 2564 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: June 19 2008,13:27    I get the impression Beckwith has, um, seen the light over WmAD.  He had a review recently, I think of Numbers' book on creationism, where he goes out of his way to correct the account of Dembski's doings over the Polyani Center.  The book had said something fairly neutral, like "there was a dispute".  Beckwith corrected this to (to paraphrase) Dembski behaved like an ass. I think Beckwith is on the side of Common Sense, and his comments at UD are always worth reading. -------------- It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: June 19 2008,13:47    Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ June 19 2008,10:47) Dr Dr Dembski gets one thing right   Quote Think of Darwinism as an old dilapidated house. There comes a point when it’s not worth salvaging and needs to be razed. We’ve now reached that point, and you can quote me on it (given how the other side operates, I’m sure I will be quoted on it Right. Because the evolution journals, which publish thousands of papers a year, are clearly inferior to the ID journal, which publishes zero papers per year. Anyone can see the logic in that. Oh, how the fraud of Darwinism does persist!

Bob O'H Posts: 2564 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: June 19 2008,13:59    Speaking of journals, JOEI seems to have disappeared.  Did I miss its going, or has it quietly slipped away? -------------- It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

midwifetoad Posts: 4003 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: June 19 2008,14:01    Quote (Tom Ames @ June 19 2008,13:23) Quote (midwifetoad @ June 19 2008,08:17) Maybe if I illustrated my point about feedback. Suppose you have a robotic car whose steering mechanism makes frequent, minute, random changes to the left or right. Suppose each small change of direction is followed by a yes or no response from a sensor that detects deviations from the center of the road. Perhaps this isn't as intuitive or efficient as having the sensor simply command a jog left or right, but I can't see that it would fail to work. Furthermore, you'd have a mechanism to increase information about the environment into the system: keeping track of your location over time would provide you with a map of the road. Excellent metaphor. I kind of forgot to specify that the system needs to respond to yes or no in some way. this is the stuff of genetic algorithms, about which I know little. But it is obvious that the system has to learn something from feedback. The point of my metaphor is that feedback is information. A system that saves feedback and changes as a result can increase its store of information. -------------- Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

Maya Posts: 702 Joined: Dec. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: June 19 2008,15:04    Quote (JohnW @ June 19 2008,12:02) -..  .-  ...-  .  ...  -.-.  ---  -    ..  ...    .-    .-.  .-  ...-  ..  -.  --.    ..-.  ..-  -.-.  -.-  .--  ..  - - .... .- - .. ... .- -. .. -. ... ..- .-.. - - --- ..-. ..- -.-. -.- .-- .. - ... . ...- . .-. -.-- .-- .... . .-. .

DiEb Posts: 312 Joined: May 2008 (Permalink) Posted: June 19 2008,15:38    MorseDeTranslator :D

Tracy P. Hamilton Posts: 1239 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 19 2008,15:43    Quote (Maya @ June 19 2008,15:04) Quote (JohnW @ June 19 2008,12:02) -..  .-  ...-  .  ...  -.-.  ---  -    ..  ...    .-    .-.  .-  ...-  ..  -.  --.    ..-.  ..-  -.-.  -.-  .--  ..  - - .... .- - .. ... .- -. .. -. ... ..- .-.. - - --- ..-. ..- -.-. -.- .-- .. - ... . ...- . .-. -.-- .-- .... . .-. . --- -.- .-.. .. ... ... . -. ..- .--. --..-- .... --- -- --- ... -.-- --- ..- - .... .. -. -.- .. -.. --- -. - ..- -. -.. . .-. ... - .- -. -.. -.-- --- ..- .-. -.. -. .- - .- .-.. -.- .. .- -- ..-. .-.. ..- . -. - .. -. -.. -. .- .- -. -.. -- --- --- -. -- .- -. -.-- --- ..- .-. . --- ..- - - .- .... . .-. . -------------- "Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV "The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen "We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

Dr.GH Posts: 2333 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: June 19 2008,16:16    Quote (Bob O'H @ June 19 2008,11:27) I get the impression Beckwith has, um, seen the light over WmAD.  He had a review recently, I think of Numbers' book on creationism, where he goes out of his way to correct the account of Dembski's doings over the Polyani Center.  The book had said something fairly neutral, like "there was a dispute".  Beckwith corrected this to (to paraphrase) Dembski behaved like an ass. I think Beckwith is on the side of Common Sense, and his comments at UD are always worth reading. Here is the link that might save others a bit of time; http://homepage.mac.com/francis.beckwith/Creationists.pdf -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Lou FCD Posts: 5455 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 19 2008,16:27    Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ June 19 2008,16:43) Quote (Maya @ June 19 2008,15:04)   Quote (JohnW @ June 19 2008,12:02) -..  .-  ...-  .  ...  -.-.  ---  -    ..  ...    .-    .-.  .-  ...-  ..  -.  --.    ..-.  ..-  -.-.  -.-  .--  ..  - - .... .- - .. ... .- -. .. -. ... ..- .-.. - - --- ..-. ..- -.-. -.- .-- .. - ... . ...- . .-. -.-- .-- .... . .-. . --- -.- .-.. .. ... ... . -. ..- .--. --..-- .... --- -- --- ... -.-- --- ..- - .... .. -. -.- .. -.. --- -. - ..- -. -.. . .-. ... - .- -. -.. -.-- --- ..- .-. -.. -. .- - .- .-.. -.- .. .- -- ..-. .-.. ..- . -. - .. -. -.. -. .- .- -. -.. -- --- --- -. -- .- -. -.-- --- ..- .-. . --- ..- - - .- .... . .-. . I'm finding this pretty amusing, actually. Thanks for making it easier for my lazy butt, DiEb. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Kristine Posts: 3061 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 19 2008,17:08    Or "farce," as the case may be. When evolution doesn't die on April 2, 2016, I say we make Bill Dembski deliver a speech via aldis lamp. -------------- Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip? AtBC Poet Laureate "I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive "Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 19 2008,17:25    Quote (Kristine @ June 19 2008,15:08) Or "farce," as the case may be. :) When evolution doesn't die on April 2, 2016, I say we make Bill Dembski deliver a speech via aldis lamp. I can't imagine what you're alluding to. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Lou FCD Posts: 5455 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 19 2008,17:27    Quote (Kristine @ June 19 2008,18:08) Or "farce," as the case may be. :) When evolution doesn't die on April 2, 2016, I say we make Bill Dembski deliver a speech via aldis lamp. I say we shove him in a genie's lamp and refuse to rub it. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Reciprocating Bill Posts: 4265 Joined: Oct. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: June 19 2008,17:33    I say rub the lamp. Imagine his confusion as he enjoys the experience. -------------- Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be. "The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." - David Foster Wallace "Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down." - Barry Arrington

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