VMartin
Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006
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| Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Mar. 14 2008,15:05) | | Quote (VMartin @ Mar. 14 2008,12:15) | I hope you understand now that "mimicry" of coral snakes is more complicated problem than your neodarwinian teachers taught you at secondary schools.
At least you have to invent some plausible stories how it is possible that:
I. model snakes are nocturnal and their mimics are diurnal.
II. model coral snakes are so poisonous that no species can survive their encounter with them. So how can predators remember they are dangerous? Consequently -what predators do you propose as selective agents?
III. "Mimics" often lives in areas where no models are present.
The problem is more complicated than you would like to have it. |
Indeed it is.
| Quote | | Coral Snakes usually spend their maximum time underground, under any surface or inside any rock crevices. They remain active on the ground in the daytime, especially on hot sunny days. During very hot weather, activity is primarily nocturnal. This snake is normally active at temperatures between approximately 55 - 85 degrees. |
From here
or | Quote | | Arizona Coral Snakes are carnivorous, feeding mainly on blind snakes (Leptotyphlops), which are about the size of worms, but they also occasionally feed on other small snakes and lizards. They are usually diurnal in the spring, nocturnal in the summer (when they are most commonly seen), and both in the fall (rarely come above ground during winter). |
From here.
Did it ever occur to you that "nocturnal" and "tend to be nocturnal" or "secretive" are not the same thing? Did it ever occur to you that these snakes do venture out in the day, and that they might be most vulnerable to predation when they did that? Did it ever occur to you that predators of these snakes probably are diurnal, and that a diurnal mimic would probably benefit from the mimicry? Of course it didn't, since you know as little about coral snakes as you do about any other aspect of reality...
Speaking of reality, maybe you'd like to reconsider this sentence as well "model coral snakes are so poisonous that no species can survive their encounter with them." See here for some data on avian predators, including laughing falcons and puffbirds. And please factor into your tiny brain the reality that the king snakes (various species) are predators of other snakes, immune to the venom of other snakes, and thus could "survive their encounter" with a coral snake.
While you're back here, maybe you can tell us your explanation for the fact that there are diurnal mimics of coral snakes. I'm sure it is a well-supported and incredibly convincing story, but so far we haven't had the pleasure of hearing it from you.
[chirp chirp] |
Perhaps you should be more specific - as I asked you before - what kind of predators do you have on your mind. The link you have given doesn´t work. The other site is some ".com" speculation with no scientific value. I can reccomend you as well these sentences from jstor dismissing "natural selection" as the source of coral snakes mimicry calling it "pseudomimicry":
Pseudomimicry is the term applied to the condition under which similar color patterns have arisen independently of natural selection in unrelated sympatric species occupying similar habitats. It is further suggested that the resemblances among Micrurus fulvius, Cemophora coccinea, and Lampropeltis triangulum are an example of pseudomimicry.
pseudomimicry
On the other hand there are predators that have no problems with poisonous coral snakes and consequently it is utterly ridiculous to consider them as selective agent of aposematism:
As in earlier studies coatis appeared to avoid coral snake models, our findings show that results from studies with abstract snake models cannot unconditionally serve as evidence for an aposematic function of coral snake coloration.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/l60j183265852v30/
The problem is so complicated that I would reccomend that we should first focus only on some part of it. What would you prefer - are really coral snake models nocturnal/diurnal or - what kind of predators they have? Give the exact name of snakes and their predators you would like to support your view of mimicry.
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I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin
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