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Aardvark Posts: 134 Joined: Feb. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 26 2006,06:58    Should professional societies issue position statements at all? Does this mean that Dembski will be demanding that the DI withdraw their own position statement.  Or does the DI now accept evolution sans ID?

guthrie Posts: 696 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 26 2006,07:09    As an side, with regards to position statements, MCKitricks comment on them is funny, considering that if people like him didnt go around trying to trash the science behind global warming etc, there would be no need to issue position statements.  Same with Biology.   That Wikipedia article is a  hoot- it is classic ID reasoning all in one go- arguing from lack of evidence Dembski is not a theologian! Yes he is, heres the quotes. But he does science! Really?  We cant seem to find anything about that, dont you have any evidwence for that? But hes not a theologian! Heres the evidence But hes not a theologian! Heres more evidence. But hes not a theologian! Havnt you got somehting better to do? But hes not a theologian! I'm getting bored, you've rehashed your argument twice now already, and theres still no evidence. etc etc Do we know which fool Augustinian was?

Zachriel Posts: 2723 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 26 2006,07:11    Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Nov. 26 2006,06:27) my favourite DS moment yet, an oldie but no disussion of "the Man, DaveTard" is complete without it: Still my favorite line, "It was empty rhetoric." Sigh. Good times. (Unless you're a family subjected to threats because of such "empty rhetoric".) Curious. Did DaveScot simply apologize for his unkind words? His admittedly vacuous statements? His blow of ill-wind? His "empty rhetoric"? -------------- You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

Stephen Elliott Posts: 1776 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 26 2006,07:16    Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Nov. 26 2006,06:27) my favourite DS moment yet, an oldie but no disussion of "the Man, DaveTard" is complete without it:     Quote I hope someone keeps track of the 11 parents and their children. Everyone in Dover knows #### well that no children were forced to listen to the 60 second announcement regarding evolution and intelligent design. So what you have is 11 parents whose religious hostility extended to such a trivial matter they were willing to make the tiny school district pay a million dollars. I grew up in a small town and when a few people pull crap like that that hurts everyone there will be payback. I won't be at all surprised if the children of these parents are so badly ostracized and abused by other students that they're forced to find another school and the parents will be snubbed and insulted and their cars keyed and their coworkers and supervisors making their lives miserable that they'll all end up moving away. I hope that's all tracked so that the next group of parents that gets their panties in a bunch and volunteers to the be the designated shitheads know what it's going to cost them. and the cherry on the cake is at the wikipedia talk page wikipedia talk where DS makes legal threats over his own words. Oddly, the actual post over at Larrys blog has been removed. I wonder why. It's lucky there are so many caring people that kept a copy Good grief, Hard to believe (unless you have read many of DS's comments). He is almost 2 dimensional. Kinda like a Disney villian. So funny: threats to sue someone with libel for quoting him. I really did enjoy the Wiki link.

Bebbo Posts: 161 Joined: Dec. 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 26 2006,10:41    Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Nov. 26 2006,07:16) Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Nov. 26 2006,06:27) my favourite DS moment yet, an oldie but no disussion of "the Man, DaveTard" is complete without it:       Quote I hope someone keeps track of the 11 parents and their children. Everyone in Dover knows #### well that no children were forced to listen to the 60 second announcement regarding evolution and intelligent design. So what you have is 11 parents whose religious hostility extended to such a trivial matter they were willing to make the tiny school district pay a million dollars. I grew up in a small town and when a few people pull crap like that that hurts everyone there will be payback. I won't be at all surprised if the children of these parents are so badly ostracized and abused by other students that they're forced to find another school and the parents will be snubbed and insulted and their cars keyed and their coworkers and supervisors making their lives miserable that they'll all end up moving away. I hope that's all tracked so that the next group of parents that gets their panties in a bunch and volunteers to the be the designated shitheads know what it's going to cost them. and the cherry on the cake is at the wikipedia talk page wikipedia talk where DS makes legal threats over his own words. Oddly, the actual post over at Larrys blog has been removed. I wonder why. It's lucky there are so many caring people that kept a copy Good grief, Hard to believe (unless you have read many of DS's comments). He is almost 2 dimensional. Kinda like a Disney villian. So funny: threats to sue someone with libel for quoting him. I really did enjoy the Wiki link. If Dave really cared about how much money the trial cost the Dover school board then he should be taking it up with the people who decided to defend the case. After all, according to him the board's policy didn't even mean anyone was forced to listen to the evolution/ID announcement, so why the heck were they so concerned to defend it in court?

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 26 2006,12:19    Speaking of the Wikipage, don't miss this:   Quote Dave, is that you? JoshuaZ 04:21, 3 November 2006 (UTC) Of course it's me. I told you'd I'd just use a dynamic IP if blocked. I'm going to hang up now and go back to my cable modem because this analog modem is slow. I'll never have this IP address again so don't reply to it. Some other person that also uses Time-Warner's roaming dial-up will have it assigned to them. This prompted this:   Quote Per this I recommend that we block an IP Dave is using on sight and revert his edits until he withdraws his legal threats per WP:LEGAL. JoshuaZ 04:46, 3 November 2006 (UTC) Uh oh, in the 'position statement' thread, UD is bringing out ID's greatest thinkers: Quote the best way for a professional society to avoid possible problems with position statements — including the possibility of getting some crumbs mixed in — is to just not make position statements. Comment by Larry Fafarman — November 26, 2006 @ 3:00 am -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Stephen Elliott Posts: 1776 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 26 2006,12:46    Quote (Bebbo @ Nov. 26 2006,10:41) ... If Dave really cared about how much money the trial cost the Dover school board then he should be taking it up with the people who decided to defend the case... The only thing Dave Scot cares about is to win (that is on record somewhere from UD). He doesn't give a toss about wether he is correct or not. That man is scum.

jujuquisp Posts: 129 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 26 2006,15:07    DaveScot keeps trying to edit the Dembski entry on Uncyclopedia: http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/William_Dembski Kind of hilarious that he only changes the portion that mentions him.  Is he ashamed of being mentioned in the same company as Dembski?  He'll then insert my name (Jesse Van Bommel) for his as if this is some sort of effective retaliation.  Also, he needs to learn how to spell Anesthesiologist.  LOL, what an idiot.

Faid Posts: 1143 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 26 2006,17:48    Quote I evidently made the unforgivable mistake of not knowing that when two chromosomes are connected by a centromere they magically become a single chromosome composed of two chromatids. Burn the bridge and the two chromatids all of a sudden are two chromosomes once again. Fascinating stuff. No pendantry there. No siree! MacNeil flunked me out of basic biology (a class he teaches) for that. Hard to believe, isn't it? For crying out loud, Dave, are you so desperate you have to take your whiny rants to JAD's blog to ask for some approval? Dave, your ignorance shines more with every new shot you take at this. At no (normal) stage of cell division (meiosis or mitosis) are "two chromosomes  connected by a centromere [and] they magically become a single chromosome composed of two chromatids". For that alone, you should not only get flunked, but repeat the whole class. Look, just give it up. The more you post, the more it becomes evident that, either: a) You are way less smart than you say you are, or b) You are too arrogant and immature to admit you were wrong. Or both, of course. -------------- A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty: "The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information" "...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

djmullen Posts: 327 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 26 2006,18:23    People trying to psychoanalyze DaveScot should go to Google Groups and search for "david springer dell" without the quotes.

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 26 2006,21:15    Quote (djmullen @ Nov. 26 2006,18:23) People trying to psychoanalyze DaveScot should go to Google Groups and search for "david springer dell" without the quotes. I want DaveTard's Job.. http://groups.google.com/group....bf507de -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 27 2006,01:22    More Tard. http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2006....5914427 Quote DaveScot said... Oh hi, John. I wonder where you'd slunk off to after mailing that letter to O'Leary. She forwarded it to all the admins at UD. A couple of them, even Dembski, rose up in your defense. They rose up, that is, until I emailed them a couple dozen choice quotes from your blog "newprescribedevolution" where you'd called Dembski all kinds of unflattering names. They then went from defending you to pitying you but agreeing that me banning you was the right thing to do. I didn't want to expose you in that way but you left me no choice. 4:39 AM Didn't you D*mbski a 'fundy' and Denyse 'Morphodyke', Dave? -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Lou FCD Posts: 5455 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 27 2006,03:13    Quote (Richardthughes @ Nov. 27 2006,01:22) Didn't you D*mbski a 'fundy' and Denyse 'Morphodyke', Dave? Ahhh Sir Richard, your memory serves you well. Though I don't recall the specifics of the first part, as to the second part of your querie... Dave picks up Janie's pet name for O'Leary  (Originally coined here)       Quote (DaveScot @ July 29 2006, 6:29AM) On 7/29/2006 06:29:44 AM, DaveScot waxed damned near poetic whilst opining...    Kate    A lot more has been made of what transpired on UD than what really transpired on UD. I was tired of moderating and sick of the evo/id controversy. It just goes on and on, the same things are said over and over, and people rarely change their position on it. So, me not being a quitter and Bill not being a firer, I gave him a public ultimatum that challenged his authority on his own blog with the choice of let me have my way or find someone else for the job. I suspect we both got what we wanted (I know I did). The only surprise was Morphodyke. I'd thought one of the existing editors would take over for me.    I bet Bill was a bit taken back when Morphodyke brought Davison back in the fold. Bill thinks Davison is a nut. Those are his exact words - a nut. He humored me with Davison, not saying a word about it until I figured it out for myself, and now he's in the position of having to humor O'Leary while she goes through the same exercise. Humorously, it's been repeated even at Uncyclopedia... William Dembski   Quote Blogging - One of Dembski's favorite blog lapdogs is a discharged combat marine named DaveScot. DaveScot is a self-confirmed multimillionaire megagenius with a self-documented IQ well beyond 150, which was confirmed via SAT scores in 1974. His high IQ is also doubtless the reason why DaveScot is kept busy by legions of women who regularly beg him to sire their children. DaveScot is the "Darth Maul" to Dembski's "Emperor Palpatine". He will regularly terminate the privileges of the subhuman blogtards that fester on Dembski's blog, thus providing the blog site with a purely intellectual and untainted venue for discussing the revolution that is intelligent design. Denyse O'Leary, aka Morphodyke, has been designated Dembski's right-hand androgynous blog partner. She and DaveScot have not played nicely in the past due to DaveScot's jealousy of her rapid ascent to replace DaveScot as Dembski's favorite. Since no one has ever seen a verified picture of DaveScot, some conspiracy theorists have speculated, based on the discharged-Marine look sported by O'Leary, that they are one and the same person. The emphasis is of course, mine in all instances above. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Alan Fox Posts: 1556 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 27 2006,03:54    Quote Since no one has ever seen a verified picture of DaveScot Scott Page mentioned having seen one once. Professor Page? Any chance of a peek?

k.e Posts: 1948 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 27 2006,08:18    Quote .......some conspiracy theorists have speculated, based on the discharged-Marine look sported by O'Leary, that they are one and the same person. Well .......that IS a tantalizing thought. But how did DssT suddenly become articulate in glib and  an expert on the psychology of cats with apartmentia? And find the time to write about it in "Sky High" a weekly review of androgynous architects archnemisis... Archean absolutists overarching anal meanderings on alchemy and astrology while pandering to idiot designers...no DSSt is NOT repeat NOT a dyke even if he/she wished he was. Because if he was, he would have had JB and CK up against a wall with her wicked wicked ways. He is of course now famous for FAILING to do that .....despite all the groveling a retired boot licking grunt with a Dell pin in his lapel and a 2 IP's is capable of doing. Class all the way is Oberdumkofundpocketpeckerpuller Herr Dastard. As he bends over the motor bay of his evil water borne traveling contraption twiddling his mustache he imagines himself to be the Czar of anti evolutionary mushrooms each with an eye patch and a loaded gun hidden in their cockpits. At least they don't say no or turn out to be boys when he puts the hard word on them. But seriously are these guys out to paint DT as a kind of ID saint, all hat and no cattle? I thought that was our job. -------------- The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

Kristine Posts: 3061 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 27 2006,12:31    More re Denyse: She was in Minneapolis in 2004 pushing her new book. (Yes, I missed it.) Evolution under fire? More O'Leary. I knew about her before she was installed at UD. She’s real (as in really unreal). I just about fell over when she was crowned blog princess. Is it me, or has it become pretty quiet over there at UD? Several blasé posts…position statements about position statements...we don’t know our Greek, blah, blah (no, I admit I don't). -------------- Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip? AtBC Poet Laureate "I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive "Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

Alan Fox Posts: 1556 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 27 2006,14:56    Quote Is it me, or has it become pretty quiet over there at UD? It's not just you. They badly need a new idea, or even just a new strategy. New blood, perhaps. They could bring back Josh Bozeman, for instance.

keiths Posts: 2195 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 27 2006,15:20    Quote (Kristine @ Nov. 27 2006,12:31) Is it me, or has it become pretty quiet over there at UD? Like watching paint dry. UD gets this way periodically whenever they manage to chase off or ban all of the intelligent people. Look no further than the Pinker thread.  27 comments full of error after inanity, piling higher and higher, and not a single intelligent challenge to offset the stench. Gil Dodgen even manages to condescend to Pinker, which is hilarious given that Pinker under general anesthesia could still out-think Gil. Things were hopping for a while at UD after LeTard got sacked, and for a short while after he got back, when the leash was still tight.  Those days appear to be over. -------------- And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

steve_h Posts: 544 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 27 2006,15:25    Maybe all of the contributors are busy writing articles for their UncommonlyDense4Kids site.

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 27 2006,15:34    Don't worry, I'll fix this. *rolls up sleeves* Oi, Davetard you bellend. Do some more sciencey posts. Thermodynamics would be fine. Make sure you list you SAT induced IQ at least once, tell folks you're a millionaire, that you used to work at Dell and that they can't comprehend how fast your mind works. You might want to omit the 'living in a boat full of fungus' bit, though. I command it! *claps hands twice* -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

keiths Posts: 2195 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 27 2006,15:37    Quote (Alan Fox @ Nov. 27 2006,14:56) They could bring back Josh Bozeman, for instance. Wouldn't that be great?  Maybe we could get him to talk again about how great it was to be an Old Testament slave. -------------- And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

keiths Posts: 2195 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 27 2006,15:49    I just popped over to Josh's website to see what he's been up to, and found this great "they all look the same to me" comment: Quote The first fime was REINCARNATION- a muddled Japanese horror film that wasn’t horrorific in any way. It was a mind-numbing mixture of nonsense and the same tired “scare” over and over again. Frankly, as an American of European descent, I couldn’t for the life of me tell the girls apart. The girl would start talking, and I’d ask myself- wait, is this the main character or someone else? Let’s be honest- it’s just hard to tell between the girls. They all have the stereotypical Japanese look- very thin, long straight black hair, seemingly unable to take care of themselves without the help of a male figure who holds their hand everywhere they go (figuratively, that is.) -------------- And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 27 2006,15:52    Quote (keiths @ Nov. 27 2006,15:20) Quote (Kristine @ Nov. 27 2006,12:31) Is it me, or has it become pretty quiet over there at UD? Like watching paint dry. UD gets this way periodically whenever they manage to chase off or ban all of the intelligent people. Look no further than the Pinker thread.  27 comments full of error after inanity, piling higher and higher, and not a single intelligent challenge to offset the stench. Gil Dodgen even manages to condescend to Pinker, which is hilarious given that Pinker under general anesthesia could still out-think Gil. Things were hopping for a while at UD after LeTard got sacked, and for a short while after he got back, when the leash was still tight.  Those days appear to be over. Hey, be nice to Gil. He appears to have designed this program, which certainly marks him as Steven Pinker's intellectual superior.   -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 27 2006,16:12    Quote (keiths @ Nov. 27 2006,15:49) I just popped over to Josh's website to see what he's been up to, and found this great "they all look the same to me" comment:       Quote The first fime was REINCARNATION- a muddled Japanese horror film that wasn’t horrorific in any way. It was a mind-numbing mixture of nonsense and the same tired “scare” over and over again. Frankly, as an American of European descent, I couldn’t for the life of me tell the girls apart. The girl would start talking, and I’d ask myself- wait, is this the main character or someone else? Let’s be honest- it’s just hard to tell between the girls. They all have the stereotypical Japanese look- very thin, long straight black hair, seemingly unable to take care of themselves without the help of a male figure who holds their hand everywhere they go (figuratively, that is.) Hey, Josh is from Indiana, we should be glad he didn't call her 'Oriental'. Clearly Josh needs to meet Chiaki Kuriyama: -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Kristine Posts: 3061 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 27 2006,16:38    Quote     Quote Is it me, or has it become pretty quiet over there at UD? Like watching paint dry.   Or maybe this is the part of the B-movie when everyone is supposed to start necking!   -------------- Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip? AtBC Poet Laureate "I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive "Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

Lou FCD Posts: 5455 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 27 2006,16:43    Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Nov. 27 2006,15:52) Hey, be nice to Gil. He appears to have designed this program, which certainly marks him as Steven Pinker's intellectual superior.   Yeah, plus I have a special place in Gil's heart, so quit pickin' on him! -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Lou FCD Posts: 5455 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 27 2006,16:52    Quote (keiths @ Nov. 27 2006,15:49) I just popped over to Josh's website to see what he's been up to, and found this great "they all look the same to me" comment:     Quote The first fime was REINCARNATION- a muddled Japanese horror film that wasn’t horrorific in any way. It was a mind-numbing mixture of nonsense and the same tired “scare” over and over again. Frankly, as an American of European descent, I couldn’t for the life of me tell the girls apart. The girl would start talking, and I’d ask myself- wait, is this the main character or someone else? Let’s be honest- it’s just hard to tell between the girls. They all have the stereotypical Japanese look- very thin, long straight black hair, seemingly unable to take care of themselves without the help of a male figure who holds their hand everywhere they go (figuratively, that is.) Holy Crap.  Looks like he forgot to point out her "slanty eyes". I'm guessing it was part of the original comment about her "stereotypical Japanese look", but it then got changed in edit to the whole "unable to take care of themselves" thing.  He just forgot to amend the "look" part of it. But I'm just guessing. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank Posts: 2560 Joined: Feb. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 27 2006,20:05    By golly, there's just something . . . about  . . . an Asian girl with chains . . . . A certain . . . je ne sais quois . . . . -------------- Editor, Red and Black Publishers www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

Reciprocating Bill Posts: 4265 Joined: Oct. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 27 2006,22:16    Quote People trying to psychoanalyze DaveScot should go to Google Groups and search for "david springer dell" without the quotes. Very entertaining.  Here was one poster's impression of Dave circa 1997:   Quote As for this interminable flame war, it should be obvious that you will never change Springer's mind - he's convinced he is right, and will angle off, deflect, redirect and turn words to keep from being confonted with any facts that conflict with his world view or opinions - and will crow  loudly when he does score a point with a fact (even if its out of  context).  He's more slippery than a Scientology lawyer - and don't bother trying to change him. Probably can't be improved upon. -------------- Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be. "The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." - David Foster Wallace "Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down." - Barry Arrington

Zachriel Posts: 2723 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 28 2006,07:22    Joe G:       Quote More thoughts on human chromosome 2: ... However that does not mean said ancestor(s) shared a common ancestor with chimps. In a way, Joseph is correct. A nested hierarchy cannot be established with just two nodes. So, Joseph, * What is the minimal number of nodes necessary to establish a nested hierarchy? * Do the twigs of a tree represent a nested hierarchy? * Do extant vertebrates form a nested hierarchy? Do extinct vertebrates fit this nested hierarchy? * Please point to specific independently derived traits to support your assertions (per the definition you yourself provided). (Xposted to Joseph's blog.) -------------- You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

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