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sparc



Posts: 1967
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2014,02:18   

Paul Giem tells the censor tail in this video on Biological Information: New Perspectives you will find at archive.org. At the end of his talk you can see the audience: ID the future, indeed. Or as William Dembski said:  
Quote
give us your young people . . .


Edited by sparc on Oct. 05 2014,02:20

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
sparc



Posts: 1967
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2014,02:37   

Giem states that he has been informed that the book is now (it's not clear when he gave the talk but it must have been after World Scientific finally published it) from Springer in e-book format. However, while BI:NP still has its own Springer page the eBook link on that page is dead.

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
sparc



Posts: 1967
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2014,02:49   

I should have mentioned that Giem added links to the relevant PT and AtBc threads to his video and to the video page at  youtube.

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
Quack



Posts: 1954
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2014,06:39   

Quote (sparc @ Oct. 05 2014,02:18)
Paul Giem tells the censor tail in this video on Biological Information: New Perspectives you will find at archive.org. At the end of his talk you can see the audience: ID the future, indeed. Or as William Dembski said:  
Quote
give us your young people . . .

I just skipped to that, guess it must have been the best part...

--------------
Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
snorkild



Posts: 32
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2014,05:30   

Quote (sparc @ Oct. 05 2014,02:18)
Paul Giem tells the censor tail in this video on Biological Information: New Perspectives you will find at archive.org. At the end of his talk you can see the audience: ID the future, indeed. Or as William Dembski said:    
Quote
give us your young people . . .

Quote
Paul Giem tells the censor tail in this video on Biological Information: New Perspectives you will find at archive.org. At the end of his talk you can see the audience: ID the future, indeed. Or as William Dembski said:    
Quote
give us your young people . . .


Ah, but we're not shown how very much younger the audience was at the beginning of the presentation.

--------------
wimp

  
Occam's Aftershave



Posts: 1779
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2014,10:36   

Quote (Quack @ Oct. 05 2014,06:39)
 
Quote (sparc @ Oct. 05 2014,02:18)
Paul Giem tells the censor tail in this video on Biological Information: New Perspectives you will find at archive.org. At the end of his talk you can see the audience: ID the future, indeed. Or as William Dembski said:      
Quote
give us your young people . . .

I just skipped to that, guess it must have been the best part...

Who was the old geezer sitting next to Gauger in the second row?  He sure did a lot of whining.

--------------
"Science is what got us to the humble place we’re at, and what hard-won progress we might realize comes from science, with ID completely flaccid, religious apologetics bitching from the sidelines." - Eigenstate at UD

  
Learned Hand



Posts: 214
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2014,12:11   

They helpfully made "Cornell" one of the keywords on the post. Just in case anyone forgot it's the CORNELL UNIVERSITY Symposium on Biological Information, <tinyfont> not affiliated with Cornell University </tinyfont>.

  
JohnW



Posts: 2810
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2014,12:40   

Quote (Learned Hand @ Oct. 06 2014,10:11)
They helpfully made "Cornell" one of the keywords on the post. Just in case anyone forgot it's the CORNELL UNIVERSITY Symposium on Biological Information, <tinyfont> not affiliated with Cornell University </tinyfont>.

They inexplicably forgot to include "School of Hotel Management."

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4838
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2014,14:42   

In the video, Dr. Giem calls me out specifically as calling for "persecution" in this thread.

That's right up there with suggesting Barbara Forrest should be on Haldol.

Update: Well, Giem was just channeling Casey Luskin on that, but he did seem happy to do so.

Edited by Wesley R. Elsberry on Oct. 06 2014,14:48

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4838
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2014,14:43   

Quote (Occam's Aftershave @ Oct. 06 2014,10:36)
Quote (Quack @ Oct. 05 2014,06:39)
 
Quote (sparc @ Oct. 05 2014,02:18)
Paul Giem tells the censor tail in this video on Biological Information: New Perspectives you will find at archive.org. At the end of his talk you can see the audience: ID the future, indeed. Or as William Dembski said:      
Quote
give us your young people . . .

I just skipped to that, guess it must have been the best part...

Who was the old geezer sitting next to Gauger in the second row?  He sure did a lot of whining.

Another commenter mentioned "Dr. Roth", who might be the person in question.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Occam's Aftershave



Posts: 1779
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2014,15:04   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 06 2014,14:43)
 
Quote (Occam's Aftershave @ Oct. 06 2014,10:36)
 
Quote (Quack @ Oct. 05 2014,06:39)
     
Quote (sparc @ Oct. 05 2014,02:18)
Paul Giem tells the censor tail in this video on Biological Information: New Perspectives you will find at archive.org. At the end of his talk you can see the audience: ID the future, indeed. Or as William Dembski said:          
Quote
give us your young people . . .

I just skipped to that, guess it must have been the best part...

Who was the old geezer sitting next to Gauger in the second row?  He sure did a lot of whining.

Another commenter mentioned "Dr. Roth", who might be the person in question.

Looks like it's this guy.

Ariel Roth

Long time professional YEC.  But ID has nothing to do with Biblical Creation, honest!   :D

--------------
"Science is what got us to the humble place we’re at, and what hard-won progress we might realize comes from science, with ID completely flaccid, religious apologetics bitching from the sidelines." - Eigenstate at UD

  
socle



Posts: 322
Joined: July 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2014,16:42   

Quote (Occam's Aftershave @ Oct. 06 2014,15:04)

Looks like it's this guy.

Ariel Roth

Long time professional YEC.  But ID has nothing to do with Biblical Creation, honest!   :D



"Yep, it's rock"

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4838
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2014,20:50   

Dr. Giem claims that Casey Luskin's article on the origin of the School of Hotel Management conference refutes the concerns of critics. Giem focuses on whether the IDC advocates contacted Springer, or Springer contacted the IDC advocates. Giem ignores the concern that the inappropriate use of Cornell's name was a factor in Springer's involvement.

Giem quotes Casey on saying that someone at Springer solicited a book proposal from Bill Dembski. This apparently is supposed to make everything A-OK in how things went down. Here's an email that Luskin quotes concerning what went to Springer to introduce that proposal:

     
Quote

Dear [Snip],

It's been over a year since we've been in touch. I hope this finds you well.

Back in September of last year you invited me to propose a volume to your ISRL series (see below). This spring (31 May to 3 June 2011) some of my colleagues are holding a symposium at Cornell University on new directions in biological information: "Biological Information -- New Perspectives." John Sanford, a biologist at Cornell, is hosting the event.

[...]



Giem skips over that part entirely. (Luskin dismisses it parenthetically at the start.) He moves forward to Luskin's timeline showing Springer signing off on the proposal and ready for things to move forward. But the bit documented by Luskin shows that in the initial offering of a proceedings volume to Springer, rather than a Dembski monograph as solicited, Dembski used the Cornell imprimatur to pitch it, which is one of the problems that concerned critics. This is not paranoia. It is not "persecution" to want to make sure that what religious antievolutionists say is preserved for posterity. If they don't want the things they say now to bite them in the butt later, rather than try to wipe the record clean, they might consider that they might stop lying so much.

Maybe Springer would have been on board with Dembski saying that a batch of his buddies were having a science-and-BBQ meetup at his restaurant in Riesel, TX, or any other not-usually-associated-with-scholarship locale. We don't know how that might have been received. What we do know to a certainty now is that the Cornell name was used in making the pitch to have Springer take on the conference proceedings, despite the fact that Cornell can't be stated to have sponsored the content of the event, no more than they sponsor any of the weddings that take place in the same rented space.

Edit: grammar.

Edited by Wesley R. Elsberry on Oct. 06 2014,23:05

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
fnxtr



Posts: 2535
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2014,22:31   

Quote (Learned Hand @ Oct. 06 2014,10:11)
They helpfully made "Cornell" one of the keywords on the post. Just in case anyone forgot it's the CORNELL UNIVERSITY Symposium on Biological Information, <tinyfont> not affiliated with Cornell University </tinyfont>.

"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away." -- Tom Waits

--------------
"But it's disturbing to think someone actually thinks creationism -- having put it's hand on the hot stove every day for the last 400 years -- will get a different result tomorrow." -- midwifetoad

"I am in a rush to catch up with science work." -- Gary Gaulin

  
k.e..



Posts: 3838
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2014,03:15   

Quote (snorkild @ Oct. 06 2014,13:30)
Quote (sparc @ Oct. 05 2014,02:18)
Paul Giem tells the censor tail in this video on Biological Information: New Perspectives you will find at archive.org. At the end of his talk you can see the audience: ID the future, indeed. Or as William Dembski said:    
Quote
give us your young people . . .

 
Quote
Paul Giem tells the censor tail in this video on Biological Information: New Perspectives you will find at archive.org. At the end of his talk you can see the audience: ID the future, indeed. Or as William Dembski said:    
Quote
give us your young people . . .


Ah, but we're not shown how very much younger the audience was at the beginning of the presentation.

Ha, I missed this. WHY didn't it get POTW?

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
k.e..



Posts: 3838
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2014,03:26   

Quote (fnxtr @ Oct. 07 2014,06:31)
Quote (Learned Hand @ Oct. 06 2014,10:11)
They helpfully made "Cornell" one of the keywords on the post. Just in case anyone forgot it's the CORNELL UNIVERSITY Symposium on Biological Information, <tinyfont> not affiliated with Cornell University </tinyfont>.

"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away." -- Tom Waits

It's simple double entry accounting. Justice = Truth - Lies.

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
sparc



Posts: 1967
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 19 2014,22:35   

Seems like Paul Giem is on a roll. He just published his third presentation on "Biological Information: New Perspectives" on youtube.
We currently have:
Biological Information: The Book
Biological Information - What is It?
Biological Information - Reverse Conservation
If he continues at this speed with one chapter per week he will  finish his series about end of April 2015.

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
k.e..



Posts: 3838
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 21 2014,09:35   

Quote (sparc @ Oct. 20 2014,06:35)
Seems like Paul Giem is on a roll. He just published his third presentation on "Biological Information: New Perspectives" on youtube.
We currently have:
Biological Information: The Book
Biological Information - What is It?
Biological Information - Reverse Conservation
If he continues at this speed with one chapter per week he will  finish his series about end of April 2015.

I wonder what the next chapter will be?
Time goes backwards
Lost searches
Entropy goes up a hill
Shannon's meanings in the noise
How many bits could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck bits

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
Henry J



Posts: 4656
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2014,12:46   

Entropy - not just a good idea, it's the law!

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2014,18:18   

Quote (Henry J @ Oct. 22 2014,12:46)
Entropy - not just a good idea, it's the law!

I've got that t-shirt from the 80's.

Einstein dressed as a cop.  "The speed of light.  Not just a good idea.  It's the law."

  
sparc



Posts: 1967
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 14 2014,09:29   

Paul Giem adresses Dan Graur's "On the immortality of television sets: “function” in the human genome according to the evolution-free gospel of ENCODE" (Youtube link). Especially, the discussion at the end is quite telling - and depressing.

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
sparc



Posts: 1967
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2015,02:23   

The only good thing about Ken Ham's AIG is they don't want to fool anybody about ID:
Quote
There has also been more published by creationists in the field of population genetics, including papers presented at the Biological Information: New Perspectives Symposium held at Cornell University in 2011 (Marks et al. 2013).


--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
sparc



Posts: 1967
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 30 2015,23:22   

From the comments of a PT thread in which Joe Felsenstein and Tom English shred Dembski's “A General Theory of Information Cost Incurred by Successful Search” we learn that Worldscientific mis-spelled the name of one of the BI:NP editors in his contribution to the very same book  
Quote
keiths | March 30, 2015 6:51 PM | Reply

The paper even misspells Dembski’s name:

   (*Corresponding author: dempski@discovery.org)


--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
sparc



Posts: 1967
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2015,01:40   

Must be science because Articles of Biological Information: New Perspectives do get cited:
God, Family, and Genetics – A Biblical Perspective
Part One: Genetic Evidences Supporting the Divine Origin of Man and Family
by Dr. J.C. Sanford and Dr. Robert Carter cites              
Quote
Sanford, J.C., et al., Selection threshold severely constrains capture of beneficial mutations; Biological Information:New Perspectives (Marks, R.J. III, et al., eds.), 264-297, 2013
Gibson, P., et al. Can purifying natural selection preserve biological information? Biological Information: New Perspectives (Marks, R.J. III, et al., eds.), 232-263, 2013
Brewer, W., et al., Using numerical simulation to test the “mutation-count” hypothesis, Biological Information: New Perspectives (Marks, R.J. III, et al., eds.), 298-311, 2013
Baumgardner, J., et al., Can synergistic epistasis halt mutation accumulation? Results from numerical simulation, Biological Information: New Perspectives (Marks, R.J. III, et al., eds.), 312-337, 2013


God, Family, and Genetics – A Biblical Perspective
Part Two: Genetic Evidences Refuting the Evolution of Man and Family
Dr. J.C. Sanford and Dr. Robert Carter            
Quote
Sanford J., Biological Information and Genetic Theory: Introductory Comments, Biological Information – New Perspectives(Marks, R.J. III, et al., eds.), World Scientific, 2013
Sanford, J.C., et al., Selection threshold severely constrains capture of beneficial mutations, in Biological Information: New Perspectives, (Marks, R.J. III, et al., eds.), 264-297, 2013
Nelson, C.W., and Sanford, J.C., Computational evolution experiments reveal a net loss of genetic information despite selection, in Biological Information: New Perspectives, (Marks, R.J. III, et al., eds.), 338-368, 2013
Brewer, W., et al., Using numerical simulation to test the “mutation-count” hypothesis, in Biological Information:
New Perspectives
(Marks, R.J. III, et al., eds.), 298-311, 2013
Baumgardner, J., et al., Can synergistic epistasis halt mutation accumulation? Results from numerical simulation, in Biological Information: New Perspectives (Marks, R.J. III, et al., eds.), 312-337, 2013
Montañez, G., Marks, R., Fernandez, J., and Sanford, J., Multiple overlapping genetic codes profoundly reduce the probability of beneficial mutation, in Biological Information – New Perspectives (Marks, R.J. III, et al., eds.), 139-167, 2013
Sanford J., Biological Information and Genetic Theory: Introductory Comments, Biological Information – New Perspectives (Marks, R.J. III, et al., eds.), World Scientific, 2013

GENETIC ENTROPY     Recorded in the bible?     Did Noah Live to 950 Years Old?  
Quote
Baumgardner J., W. Brewer and J. Sanford. 2013. Can Synergistic Epistasis Halt Mutation Accumulation? Results from Numerical Simulation, In: Marks II RJ. et al., (eds) Biological Information – New Perspectives (pp 312-337)
Brewer, W., J. Baumgardner and J. Sanford. 2013a. Using Numerical Simulation to Test the “Mutation-Count” Hypothesis, In: Marks II RJ, et al., (eds) Biological Information – New Perspectives (pp 298-311)
Brewer, W., F. Smith and J. Sanford. 2013b. Information loss: potential for accelerating natural genetic attenuation of RNA viruses, In: Marks II RJ, et al., (eds) Biological Information – New Perspectives (369-384)
Gibson, P., J. Baumgardner, W. Brewer, and J. Sanford. 2013. Can Biological Information Be Sustained By Purifying Natural Selection? In: Marks II RJ et al., (eds) Biological Information – New Perspectives (pp 232-263)
Sanford, J. (2013). Session II Chair - Biological Information and Genetic Theory: Introductory Comments, In: Marks II RJ et al., (eds) Biological Information – New Perspectives (pp 203-209)
Sanford, J., J. Baumgardner, and W. Brewer. 2013. Selection Threshold Severely Constrains Capture of Beneficial Mutations, In: Marks II RJ et al., (eds) Biological Information – New Perspectives (pp 264-297)


--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
sparc



Posts: 1967
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 03 2016,02:20   

Over at the The Sensuous Curmudgeon DiEB points to the fact that Casey Luskin in his last post as Research Coordinator at DI keeps misrepresenting their fake non-Cornell conference:
Quote
Later in 2011, I was privileged to attend an ID-research conference at Cornell University where dozens of ID-friendly scientists presented their work. The aftermath of this conference provided valuable insights that exposed the Darwin lobby's true aims, as well as their limitations. Many of the papers at this conference were supposed to appear in the book Biological Information: New Perspectives, to have been published by Springer-Verlag, a prestigious science publishing house. But ID-critics apparently felt threatened by the volume, so they mounted a campaign to pressure Springer to not publish the book. This was extremely revealing. How many times have we heard ID critics say things like "ID can't be taken seriously because it doesn't present research at science conferences and doesn't publish scientific papers." But then what happens when ID proponents do exactly what the critics demanded? What happens when we present pure research papers at a science conference at a top university and then seek to have it published by a world-class scientific publisher? Do Darwin lobbyists applaud us? No. Instead, they try to censor our work. This showed that the true goal of many Darwin lobbyists is to stifle academic freedom for ID at all costs, not to invite real scientific dialogue, and not to seek the truth.

Unfortunately, Springer capitulated to the censors and refused to publish the book, illegally violating their contract. But in the end, the Biological Information: New Perspectives volume was published by another well-respected publisher, World Scientific. The message here is that Darwin lobbyists don't have enough confidence and security in the merits of their viewpoint to allow critics to publish credible alternative viewpoints. It also shows that there are forces in the mainstream scientific community who are willing to seek the truth even in the face of political threats from the Darwin lobby. The whole episode was a major win for ID.


--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
k.e..



Posts: 3838
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 03 2016,06:52   

Quote (sparc @ Jan. 03 2016,10:20)
Over at the The Sensuous Curmudgeon DiEB points to the fact that Casey Luskin in his last post as Research Coordinator at DI keeps misrepresenting their fake non-Cornell conference:  
Quote
Later in 2011, I was privileged to attend an ID-research conference at Cornell University where dozens of ID-friendly scientists presented their work. The aftermath of this conference provided valuable insights that exposed the Darwin lobby's true aims, as well as their limitations. Many of the papers at this conference were supposed to appear in the book Biological Information: New Perspectives, to have been published by Springer-Verlag, a prestigious science publishing house. But ID-critics apparently felt threatened by the volume, so they mounted a campaign to pressure Springer to not publish the book. This was extremely revealing. How many times have we heard ID critics say things like "ID can't be taken seriously because it doesn't present research at science conferences and doesn't publish scientific papers." But then what happens when ID proponents do exactly what the critics demanded? What happens when we present pure research papers at a science conference at a top university and then seek to have it published by a world-class scientific publisher? Do Darwin lobbyists applaud us? No. Instead, they try to censor our work. This showed that the true goal of many Darwin lobbyists is to stifle academic freedom for ID at all costs, not to invite real scientific dialogue, and not to seek the truth.

Unfortunately, Springer capitulated to the censors and refused to publish the book, illegally violating their contract. But in the end, the Biological Information: New Perspectives volume was published by another well-respected publisher, World Scientific. The message here is that Darwin lobbyists don't have enough confidence and security in the merits of their viewpoint to allow critics to publish credible alternative viewpoints. It also shows that there are forces in the mainstream scientific community who are willing to seek the truth even in the face of political threats from the Darwin lobby. The whole episode was a major win for ID.

Haha World Nonscientific 0 Springer 1

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
sparc



Posts: 1967
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 11 2016,00:48   

Will the IDiots abuse Cambridge like they did with Cornell?
Although they are absolutely unaware of the target and the direction of the original they refer to this is exactly what they are intending according to their announcement:
Quote
British Invasion: ID Scholars to Gather at Cambridge University for "Beyond Materialism" Conference

It's the same people as always (Meyer, Gauger, Axe et al.) plus some Europeans.

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"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
Woodbine



Posts: 1182
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 11 2016,03:22   

Quote
.....there is only so much one can do within the walls of naturalism.


And yet they never, ever manage come up with one fucking thing to do outside naturalism. They just moan. And blog.

  
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