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Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 03 2006,10:45    Quote As I continue my thoughts on Intelligent Design and Creation over the next few posts, bear in mind that all my comments are based on an unshakable belief that we will never make a scientific “discovery” that contradicts Scripture. While there's certainly nothing new, insightful, or even halfway intelligent about that comment, one could have a whole mini-discussion just dissecting her use of quotes around the word 'discovery'. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

steve_h Posts: 544 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 03 2006,11:18    Please note, that many us at atbc do not condone the use of nuclear ebola bombs to destroy churches. However,  maybe I'll report myself to my local Fremdenpolizei just to be on the safe side.

Drew Headley Posts: 152 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 03 2006,11:53    Quote # The idea that an increase in entropy results in an increase in information seems a backwards conclusion. Lloyd gives an example of an a perfectly ordered deck of playing cards (I’m assuming he means all cards in rank order and sectioned by suit), saying it represents minimum entropy and information. I wonder then how he defines “information,” since to me the information content is highest in this initial configuration. I “know” exactly where to find every card in the deck; the information is useful, complex, and highly specific. Shuffle the cards and the useful information is lost with the increase in entropy. Shuffle the cards and the pattern is not more complex…the pattern is in fact gone! I have yet to see an example of a purely naturalistic process (besides the dubious claims of biological evolution) that can be shown to create CSI. It has been offered by some that water freezing into ice crystals is just such an example. Ice certainly has the appearance of order when compared to liquid water. Yet, there’s no real increase in information. The water molecules bond to one another in a complete random order. It’s like taking a coffee can of marbles of various colors and shaking it. While you continue to agitate them, the marbles change places randomly. Stop shaking the can and all the marbles come to rest in a dense and somewhat predictable shape (that of the can). However, where each marble comes to rest is random, with no way to predict which marble will be where. Comment by sabre — April 3, 2006 @ 8:57 am Uh oh, the IDists are having to wrestle now with real information theory and not their own musings and intuititions.

Drew Headley Posts: 152 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 03 2006,11:58    Now that I think about it, if Dembski or DaveScot do not go in and correct these misconceptions than any respect I have for them (with is very little right now) will be gone. This should be elementary stuff for a person with a doctorate in mathematics or former employee of Dell.

Stranger than fiction Posts: 22 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 03 2006,12:08    Quote (Drew Headley @ April 03 2006,16:58) Now that I think about it, if Dembski or DaveScot do not go in and correct these misconceptions than any respect I have for them (with is very little right now) will be gone. This should be elementary stuff for a person with a doctorate in mathematics or former employee of Dell. Dembski can't correct them without damning his own patented version of information theory.  In both Shannon and algorithmic info theory, more random = more information.  But in Dembski's quirky and ill-defined theory, more random = less information. The UD poster is right in that information theory and algorithmic info theory are counterintuitive.  Dembski, on the other hand, plays off of people's intuitions with his snake oil.

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: April 03 2006,13:15    Quote Please note, that many us at atbc do not condone the use of nuclear ebola bombs to destroy churches. I, however, do. Quote Now that I think about it, if Dembski or DaveScot do not go in and correct these misconceptions than any respect I have for them (with is very little right now) will be gone. Davetard, last month, said that when he types a sentence the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is violeted. This weekend he thought it was a great idea to detonate 50 or so nuclear bombs every year to balance global warming. He's as capable of correcting another person's scientific misconceptions as a bag of Ranch Doritos.

Stranger than fiction Posts: 22 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 03 2006,13:17    Quote (stevestory @ April 03 2006,18:15) Quote Please note, that many us at atbc do not condone the use of nuclear ebola bombs to destroy churches. I, however, do. Be careful.  Big Brother Dembski has Homeland Security on speed-dial.

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: April 03 2006,13:33    Quote Dembski can't correct them without damning his own patented version of information theory. I had a magnificent exchange with Salvadorc Ordova one time. He was saying that biologists couldn't appreciate Dembski's breakthroughs because they weren't experts in information theory. When I pointed out to him that searches of the IEEE Information Theory website and publications yielded absolutely no discussion about or even mention of Dembski's name, Sal responded with an out-of-context  quote to the effect that well, lots of people can be wrong sometimes. In short, the exchange was "You just don't get it because you're not an expert!" "The experts don't have any regard for it either." "Well They're Wrong!"

Drew Headley Posts: 152 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 03 2006,13:34    Quote (stevestory @ April 03 2006,18:15) He's as capable of correcting another person's scientific misconceptions as a bag of Ranch Doritos. That made me shoot milk out of my nose, and I was not even drinking any!

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: April 03 2006,16:51    Re "When you see things in nature that is more complex than these machineries, isnt it reasonable to say that there is intelligence behind it (as opposed to pure chance)?" If the more complex thing were something that had yet to be studied in detail by anybody, that would be a reasonable conjecture. But if the complex thing is something that has been thoroughly studied by tens of thousands of researchers for over a century... Henry

Tiax Posts: 62 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 03 2006,17:01    http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/570 Davescot says: There is information on a blank CD. The arrangement of atoms, their position in time and space, IS information. Rearranging them changes the information but doesn’t add or subtract from the quantity of it. Information, like energy, can be neither created nor destroyed, it can only change form. http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/986 Davescot says: The ordered deck has less information content because it can be described in a simpler fashion than a list of 52 cards. The only way to perfectly describe a random sequence of 52 cards is to list each card in order. -ds Apparently CDs and decks of cards are different.  If you shuffle a deck, you get more information, but if you were to 'shuffle' the atoms on a CD, you just change information, and don't add any. http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/697 Davescot says: The question is whether there’s any new information required for speciation or is it just a matter of rearranging the deck chairs. Deck chairs are also different than a deck of cards.

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: April 03 2006,17:50    Re "There is information on a blank CD. The arrangement of atoms, their position in time and space, IS information." Uh, doesn't he realize that kills one of the more popular antievolution "arguments"? (I.e., the one about mutations not being able to increase the amount of information present.) Re "The question is whether theres any new information required for speciation " I wouldn't expect a speciation event to necessarily require an increase in information. (Unless of course one is describing both resulting species instead of just the one previous species.) Henry

guthrie Posts: 696 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 03 2006,21:20    So is DS a convert to post-humanism and uploading your brain to a simulation running on a supercomputer?  Looks like it to me with his talk about there being information on CD's in terms of atoms and spacing etc.   Surely that makes him a flammable heretic though?

Renier Posts: 276 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,01:52    This Pianka thing is quite disturbing. I mean, having a human, or even a non human entity saying that 90% of humans should be discarded somehow... reminds me of a story I read in an old book. Something about a dragon, plague, angels casting pestilence, sorrow, death, suffering, destruction and many wicked things on the earth. Some vengeful god really out to make sure about 90% of humanity does not just die, but suffer as much as possible for not worshipping him. Then, there was this really cruel part of torturing some people in fire for all eternity. I mean, really! Stuff like this is just so... evil and makes Pianka look like a sweet little baby angel. I am sure the people at UD would agree with me. Joking apart, it appears to me some people over at UD have some serious double standards. They say Pianka is evil, but many of them believe (and hope) that much more cruel and wicked things will befall about 90% (or more) of humanity.

Chris Hyland Posts: 705 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,02:30    Thats just the point, he didn't say that it should happen, he said he thinks it will happen. I have now read several articles in mainstream and alternative media that say that scientists are now generally condoning manmade genocide because of this.

Renier Posts: 276 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,03:47    Quote Chris Hyland wrote :That's just the point, he didn't say that it should happen, he said he thinks it will happen. I made the mistake of reading the UD biased version first. They are clear that he encouraged it. Then, I read some other sources and, once again, found out the ID people are just liars that cannot help themselves.

Faid Posts: 1143 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,03:50    Quote (Tiax @ April 03 2006,22:01) http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/570 Davescot says: There is information on a blank CD. The arrangement of atoms, their position in time and space, IS information. Rearranging them changes the information but doesn’t add or subtract from the quantity of it. Information, like energy, can be neither created nor destroyed, it can only change form. http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/986 Davescot says: The ordered deck has less information content because it can be described in a simpler fashion than a list of 52 cards. The only way to perfectly describe a random sequence of 52 cards is to list each card in order. -ds Apparently CDs and decks of cards are different.  If you shuffle a deck, you get more information, but if you were to 'shuffle' the atoms on a CD, you just change information, and don't add any. http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/697 Davescot says: The question is whether there’s any new information required for speciation or is it just a matter of rearranging the deck chairs. Deck chairs are also different than a deck of cards. Hey Tiax! Welcome! I'm sure you'll have many stories to tell from your adventures in Dembskiland... Yeah, and prepare to be re-banned, along with this here bozo -dt -------------- A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty: "The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information" "...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

Faid Posts: 1143 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,04:35    Quote PZ is just jealous that another biologist, an overnight sensation no less, got a more militant reputation than Meyers’ own. Evidently Church Burning isn’t good enough anymore. Should we change their affectionate nick from Church Burners to Earth Scorchers in honor of Dr. “Doom” Pianka? -ds Way ahead of you, Dave. I've already changed my nickname from "Church-Burnin' Faid" to "Faid, Destroyer of Worlds". Much more of a hit with the ladies. I'll leave the "nuclear cleansing" idea to you, however. It's true, the other two connections were also your doing; but this was your puppy from the beginning, and I wouldn't want to get mixed up in a copyright dispute with you. You seem like a really intimidating guy. OK, the red phone from the Doctor just rang, we have a go. Commencing banning on my mark: Three, two... -dt -------------- A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty: "The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information" "...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,04:46    Quote (Faid @ April 04 2006,09:35) Quote PZ is just jealous that another biologist, an overnight sensation no less, got a more militant reputation than Meyers’ own. Evidently Church Burning isn’t good enough anymore. Should we change their affectionate nick from Church Burners to Earth Scorchers in honor of Dr. “Doom” Pianka? -ds Way ahead of you, Dave. I've already changed my nickname from "Church-Burnin' Faid" to "Faid the Doombringer". Much more of a hit with the ladies. I'll leave the "nuclear cleansing" idea to you, however. It's true, the other two connections were also your doing; but this was your puppy from the beginning, and I wouldn't want to get mixed up in a copyright dispute with you. You seem like a really intimidating guy. OK, the red phone from the Doctor just rang, we have a go. Commencing banning on my mark: Three, two... -dt Are we witnessing the beginning of a process where DT is simply giving up on the whole 'science thing', and transitioning to a simple 24-7 'culture wars' blog? Lately it seems like he's making even less effort to put forward arguments that have any connection to physical reality, and shifting to just making up shlt about his 'opponents'. I mean, I admit, there never was much in the first place, but it seems like he's not even pretending anymore... -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Faid Posts: 1143 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,05:10    Oh crap. I tried to ever so subtlely change my nick to a cooler one, but Arden caught me... Okay, okay guys. I'll be the Doombringer: Destroyer of Worlds is up for grabs. Better hurry though, cause I'll start using both. PS: I think you have a point, Arden. Doesn't matter though, since the validity of their arguments will remain stuck to zero... -------------- A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty: "The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information" "...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,05:16    Maybe he's chafing at how limited his options are. He doesn't know anything about science, this 'theory' he's signed onto is just double-talk, his fellow travellers are all obvious religious loons. There's only so many ways he can fill the air, you know?

GCT Posts: 1001 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,05:42    http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/990#comments Uh oh, don't look now, but our fiendish plot with the ACLU has been uncovered!  Foiled again!  I hope this doesn't lead to evolution's Waterloo.

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,05:43    Quote (Faid @ April 04 2006,10:10) Oh crap. I tried to ever so subtlely change my nick to a cooler one, but Arden caught me... Okay, okay guys. I'll be the Doombringer: Destroyer of Worlds is up for grabs. Better hurry though, cause I'll start using both. PS: I think you have a point, Arden. Doesn't matter though, since the validity of their arguments will remain stuck to zero... Hmmm. Sorry 'bout that. Want me to go back and edit my message to reflect a cooler name? :-) "Burner of Churches" seems like another obvious choice. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,05:53    Quote (GCT @ April 04 2006,10:42) http://www.uncommondescent.com/index.php/archives/990#comments Uh oh, don't look now, but our fiendish plot with the ACLU has been uncovered!  Foiled again!  I hope this doesn't lead to evolution's Waterloo. I hear DaveScot has a list of 205 professors in America who are known to academia as being members of the ACLU, and who, nevertheless, are still working and shaping the policy of their universities. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,06:06    Quote (stevestory @ April 04 2006,10:16) Maybe he's chafing at how limited his options are. He doesn't know anything about science, this 'theory' he's signed onto is just double-talk, his fellow travellers are all obvious religious loons. There's only so many ways he can fill the air, you know? I think you're right. I bet DT wanted to be some kind of bargain-basement Rush Limbaugh in his retirement, and he figured since the field of BBRL's is rather glutted these days, the whole ID shtick was a good niche market. But his loyal followers are obvious doofuses, actual scientists all make fun of him, and try as he may, he can't get the science right when he tries to do it. So I think he's getting frustrated. I think the main thing he's always enjoyed most is slandering and bullying people anyway, so who can blame him for shifting to what he's best at? -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Stephen Elliott Posts: 1776 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,06:11    Quote (stevestory @ April 04 2006,10:16) Maybe he's chafing at how limited his options are. He doesn't know anything about science, this 'theory' he's signed onto is just double-talk, his fellow travellers are all obvious religious loons. There's only so many ways he can fill the air, you know? DS hates to be on the losing side. He is willing to do anything to win. Lie, cheat, order people out of "his Country", Nuke deserts etc. And he has morality on his side. Unbelievable!

Seven Popes Posts: 190 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,06:16    Quote Way ahead of you, Dave. I've already changed my nickname from "Church-Burnin' Faid" to "Faid, Destroyer of Worlds". Much more of a hit with the ladies. I'll leave the "nuclear cleansing" idea to you, however. It's true, the other two connections were also your doing; but this was your puppy from the beginning, and I wouldn't want to get mixed up in a copyright dispute with you. You seem like a really intimidating guy. Seven Popes =Consumer of Galaxies.   Just putting it out there.  Ya know... for tha ladies... -------------- Cave ab homine unius libri - Beware of anyone who has just one book.

Julie Stahlhut Posts: 46 Joined: July 2005 (Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,06:44    Wow, go away for a week or so and you miss some real gems. Three weeks in Italy, and the mention of the notion that nature might give objective evidence of being designed can only seem like suffering/persecution to the most objectionably spoiled human beings in recorded history. I don't get it.  Is DT claiming that spending three weeks in Italy is an example of suffering?  Spending three weeks in Italy is something I'd consider a dream vacation. And I also don't get this "high priest of Darwinism" thing that I found earlier in the thread.  Can I become a high priestess of Darwinism? Would I get to perform weddings?  And wear really neat satin robes?  And be tax-exempt and stuff?

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,07:00    Quote (Julie Stahlhut @ April 04 2006,11:44) Three weeks in Italy, and the mention of the notion that nature might give objective evidence of being designed can only seem like suffering/persecution to the most objectionably spoiled human beings in recorded history. Without my having to endure the toothache-inducing experience of wading around UD, what is he even talking about here? -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

GCT Posts: 1001 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: April 04 2006,07:03    Quote (Arden Chatfield @ April 04 2006,10:53) I hear DaveScot has a list of 205 professors in America who are known to academia as being members of the ACLU, and who, nevertheless, are still working and shaping the policy of their universities. That's all he has?  Good.  I was starting to think he had unearthed the whole entire secret plan, but he hasn't found us out yet, so it's still on.  Pass the word.

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