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Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,16:42    Quote (Daniel Smith @ Oct. 30 2008,19:24) [SNIP] Now Louis, you say you've already explained this and I've ignored it.  But all you've done is confirm what I've already said.  Miller/Urey doesn't help us when constructing a living organism. [SNIP] No one ever said it did. That's why your drivel is a straw man. If you are expecting Miller-Urey to be the complete explanation of abiogenesis and crowing because it isn't, you are beyond rational help. None of your other verbiage serves any purpose. The straw man you have erected at the core of your "argument" defeats it. If you want to know about the proposed/possible steps between a "sea of amino acids" (which, by the way, is by no means what is proposed) and a cell (for example) then all you have to do is ask or possibly...well...read the book I suggested. Or of course you can keep trying to waste everyone's time with snide ignorance. Perhaps that's why people are less than keen to engage with you on issues that would take actual intellectual effort. Danny, like it or not, your particular brand of ignorant arrogance, delectation of logical fallacies, and general crowing over what you (erroneously) perceive to be flaws in science you demonstrably don't understand is not inclined to make even the most patient and tolerant scientist (of which I am certainly not an example, I'm the impatient and intolerant type) provide you with the information you claim to desire. Perhaps a little more investigation on your part and a lot less "STUPID SCIENTISTS!!!!one111!!!" drivel might help get people to take your enquiry seriously. Your choice, as ever, is to take simple advice or ignore it. Carry on. Louis -------------- Bye.

Texas Teach Posts: 2084 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,20:17    Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 30 2008,13:58) Somebody with unreasonable doubt insists upon video-tape-level evidence for something that happened over a billion years ago before they'll credit science with having any answers about "life's systems", and the reaction of anyone with a clue is either to move on to something productive or to poke them with a rhetorical stick. The fact that some people chose the stick doesn't validate the argument. And thank goodness for that.  Since it would be awfully dull around here if we had to quit using the stick for fear of validating creationists' arguments. By the way, has anyone figured out how to reconcile Daniel's "we'll never understand any of this, therefore waterloo!" argument with his "one day we'll discover God's laws (or perhaps this has already happened), and then waterloo!" prediction? -------------- "Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr "I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,20:21    Oh thank the lord Jesus. Since I moved into my granddad's place 3 mos ago, things have been great. Except one thing. From near the front door, occasionally comes this mysterious stench so foul, so awful, that it is impossible to think. It's something beyond sulfur. Beyond rotten eggs. It's like if an animal vomited itself to death, and then you sealed all that in a ziploc and left it in the sun for, i don't know, a year, and then broke the bag open and went SNNNNNNNIIIIIIIIIFFFFFFFFFFFF! Every time I smell this, i go ballistic. I tear up everything in the neighborhood. And I can't find the source. For months this has tormented me. I've sprayed a million cubic feet of Air Wick Odor Stop. Nothing. I've dragged furniture outside, uninstalled cabinets and searched for decaying rats, etc. Still, on occasion, wafts the smell of putrid vomit corpse. It's crippling. Finally, at my wits' end, two hours ago I grabbed a reciprocating saw and took the entire wall out. Like an 8x6' area. And behind it was a simple black pipe, uncapped. I have no idea where the pipe leads. But from the mouth of the pipe came the most unholy gas you've ever smelled. I sealed the pipe off, and it's all over. There's furniture on my lawn, there's drywall in the hallway, dust is all around, but it's over. I can finally concentrate again. Free at last, free at last, thank god I'm free at last.

Reciprocating Bill Posts: 4265 Joined: Oct. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,20:27    Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 30 2008,21:21) Oh thank the lord Jesus. Since I moved into my granddad's place 3 mos ago, things have been great. Except one thing. From near the front door, occasionally comes this mysterious stench so foul, so awful, that it is impossible to think. It's something beyond sulfur. Beyond rotten eggs. It's like if an animal vomited itself to death, and then you sealed all that in a ziploc and left it in the sun for, i don't know, a year, and then broke the bag open and went SNNNNNNNIIIIIIIIIFFFFFFFFFFFF! Every time I smell this, i go ballistic. I tear up everything in the neighborhood. And I can't find the source. For months this has tormented me. I've sprayed a million cubic feet of Air Wick Odor Stop. Nothing. I've dragged furniture outside, uninstalled cabinets and searched for decaying rats, etc. Still, on occasion, wafts the smell of putrid vomit corpse. It's crippling. Finally, at my wits' end, two hours ago I grabbed a reciprocating saw and took the entire wall out. Like an 8x6' area. And behind it was a simple black pipe, uncapped. I have no idea where the pipe leads. But from the mouth of the pipe came the most unholy gas you've ever smelled. I sealed the pipe off, and it's all over. There's furniture on my lawn, there's drywall in the hallway, dust is all around, but it's over. I can finally concentrate again. Free at last, free at last, thank god I'm free at last. Wow, I just flashed on Gene Hackman in "The Conversation." -------------- Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be. "The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." - David Foster Wallace "Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down." - Barry Arrington

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,20:37    Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Oct. 30 2008,21:27) Wow, I just flashed on Gene Hackman in "The Conversation." I'm going to have to see that. Never seen it, though I'm a huge Gene Hackman fan. I used to do a lot of local acting, 'community theater' type stuff, and people would tell me I should be an actor professionally, which I would reject because I'm not an especially good-looking guy. I have good skills, but I'm about average looking, maybe a 7 on a 1-10 scale, and actors tend to be in the 9.5-9.9 range. That doesn't matter, you're really good, some people would say, but I think it does. There are a million actors for any given job, and there's just no point being average-looking and seeking those jobs. But once in a while, when the fancy strikes, I think about someone like Gene Hackman, and realize that looks aren't everything :-)

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,20:58    steve was it a vent for the sewer drain?  maybe like there was an old sink or an old toilet in the wall?   if it's a vent it might need to vent.  you can extend the pipe up through the roof to the attic, preferably boot it and stick it through the roof.  is it a metal pipe or PVC? Is there a hole in the top plate of the wall where the pipe used to go? i had to rip a bunch of cast iron plumbing out and redo with PVC when we bought our house.  Fortunately the worst of it had been done (from the house to the road). -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,21:01    and word up TT thank the gods for being able to choose the stick.  bless the internet overlordz.   some men you just can't reach so you have what we have here today.  he wants it he gets it.  I don't like it anymore than you do. -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,21:01    Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Oct. 30 2008,21:58) steve was it a vent for the sewer drain?  maybe like there was an old sink or an old toilet in the wall? It was black PVC, and as far as I can tell, it's designation was Ass Vomit Drain. That's a reasonable approximation, AFAIK.

Reciprocating Bill Posts: 4265 Joined: Oct. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,21:14    Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 30 2008,21:37) I'm going to have to see that. Never seen it, though I'm a huge Gene Hackman fan...once in a while, when the fancy strikes, I think about someone like Gene Hackman, and realize that looks aren't everything :-) I swear, Gene Hackman squirted out of his mother looking like a middle aged man. Then he became one. Now he's up there and still looks that way. Timeless. You'll recognize the scene I'm flashing on. Great movie for the paranoid among us. Also has a very young Harrison Ford in a minor role. ETA: HEY, UD, we're over here discussing Gene Hackman ferchrissakes. Get on with it an post some good TARD!! -------------- Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be. "The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." - David Foster Wallace "Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down." - Barry Arrington

carlsonjok Posts: 3326 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,21:42    Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Oct. 30 2008,21:14) Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 30 2008,21:37) I'm going to have to see that. Never seen it, though I'm a huge Gene Hackman fan...once in a while, when the fancy strikes, I think about someone like Gene Hackman, and realize that looks aren't everything :-) I swear, Gene Hackman squirted out of his mother looking like a middle aged man. Then he became one. Now he's up there and still looks that way. Timeless. One of my favorite Mystery Science Theater 3000 episodes was "Space Travelers" with Hackman and (among others) Gregory Peck. It was pretty odd seeing a couple Oscar winners getting the MST3K treatment. -------------- It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

Reciprocating Bill Posts: 4265 Joined: Oct. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,21:53    Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 30 2008,22:42) Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Oct. 30 2008,21:14)   Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 30 2008,21:37) I'm going to have to see that. Never seen it, though I'm a huge Gene Hackman fan...once in a while, when the fancy strikes, I think about someone like Gene Hackman, and realize that looks aren't everything :-) I swear, Gene Hackman squirted out of his mother looking like a middle aged man. Then he became one. Now he's up there and still looks that way. Timeless. One of my favorite Mystery Science Theater 3000 episodes was "Space Travelers" with Hackman and (among others) Gregory Peck. It was pretty odd seeing a couple Oscar winners getting the MST3K treatment. Wow. I saw that as "Marooned" in the theater when I was a kid - or more likely a teenager. Seems to me the events of Apollo 13 were simultaneously underway in real-space. -------------- Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be. "The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." - David Foster Wallace "Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down." - Barry Arrington

dogdidit Posts: 315 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,22:08    Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Oct. 30 2008,21:53)   Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 30 2008,22:42)   Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Oct. 30 2008,21:14)     Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 30 2008,21:37) I'm going to have to see that. Never seen it, though I'm a huge Gene Hackman fan...once in a while, when the fancy strikes, I think about someone like Gene Hackman, and realize that looks aren't everything :-) I swear, Gene Hackman squirted out of his mother looking like a middle aged man. Then he became one. Now he's up there and still looks that way. Timeless. One of my favorite Mystery Science Theater 3000 episodes was "Space Travelers" with Hackman and (among others) Gregory Peck. It was pretty odd seeing a couple Oscar winners getting the MST3K treatment. Wow. I saw that as "Marooned" in the theater when I was a kid. Seems to me the events of Apollo 13 were simultaneously underway in real-space. Holy crap. Was that based on the Martin Caidin novel by the same name? {googles} Yup. Even better, see this from the Wiki entry for Marooned (the movie):   Quote In his book "Lost Moon," Apollo 13 commander Jim Lovell reported that he had taken his wife, Marilyn, to see "Marooned." This added to her worries in the weeks leading up to the launch of the ill-fated mission. (The 'nightmare' scene in the Ron Howard film Apollo 13 depicts this.) -------------- "Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

Wesley R. Elsberry Posts: 4991 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,22:13    Any "Dark Star" fans here? -------------- "You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

dogdidit Posts: 315 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,22:14    Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 30 2008,21:01)   Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Oct. 30 2008,21:58) steve was it a vent for the sewer drain?  maybe like there was an old sink or an old toilet in the wall? It was black PVC, and as far as I can tell, it's designation was Ass Vomit Drain. That's a reasonable approximation, AFAIK. Dude, listen to 'Ras, you might need to vent that sucker. There's probably methane in that ass vomit stench. ka boom. Call a plumber. Even one named Joe. -------------- "Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

Reciprocating Bill Posts: 4265 Joined: Oct. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,22:17    Quote (dogdidit @ Oct. 30 2008,23:08) Holy crap. Was that based on the Martin Caidin novel by the same name? {googles} Yup. I read that as adolescent well before the release of the movie. What I most recall is a love scene on a motor boat which I re-read several times. I think "breasts" were mentioned, and that's all it took to pop-off my pent up adolescent libido. -------------- Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be. "The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." - David Foster Wallace "Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down." - Barry Arrington

dogdidit Posts: 315 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2008,22:29    Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Oct. 30 2008,22:17)   Quote (dogdidit @ Oct. 30 2008,23:08) Holy crap. Was that based on the Martin Caidin novel by the same name? {googles} Yup. I read that as adolescent well before the release of the movie. What I most recall is a love scene on a motor boat which I re-read several times. I think "breasts" were mentioned, and that's all it took to pop-off my pent up adolescent libido. Good memory. I don't remember squat from the book, though I do recall spending a considerable portion of my adolescence wrestling with my, ah, libido. If "breasts" were mentioned, then, well... *cough* His No Man's World was kick-ass totally believable-to-my-young-mind jingoistic space opera. My favorite Caidin novel. I wonder if I would love it again after mumbledy-some years later? Did it have breasts in it? -------------- "Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

oldmanintheskydidntdoit Posts: 4999 Joined: July 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2008,03:48    Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 30 2008,22:13) Any "Dark Star" fans here? Both the film and the spectrum game :) -------------- I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies". FTK if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand Gordon Mullings

Reciprocating Bill Posts: 4265 Joined: Oct. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2008,06:04    Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Oct. 31 2008,04:48) Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 30 2008,22:13) Any "Dark Star" fans here? Both the film and the spectrum game :) The only passage I recall is an orange ball chasing guys through aluminum ductwork. There weren't any breasts. I would have remembered them. -------------- Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be. "The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." - David Foster Wallace "Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down." - Barry Arrington

oldmanintheskydidntdoit Posts: 4999 Joined: July 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2008,06:28    It's worth a re-watch, it's aged surprisingy well. -------------- I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies". FTK if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand Gordon Mullings

dogdidit Posts: 315 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2008,07:09    Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Oct. 31 2008,06:04)     Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Oct. 31 2008,04:48)       Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 30 2008,22:13) Any "Dark Star" fans here? Both the film and the spectrum game :) The only passage I recall is an orange ball chasing guys through aluminum ductwork. There weren't any breasts. I would have remembered them. Ah yes. The Alien. It's demise was what one might have expected. And don't you remember one of the astronauts trying to teach existential materialism to a bomb, to get it to not explode? Almost as good as breasts. (Apologies for spoilers.) -------------- "Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

huwp Posts: 172 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2008,07:18    Quote (dogdidit @ Oct. 31 2008,07:09) Almost as good as breasts. Steady on, you'll get Louis into a bit of a lather with talk like that. Dark Star is great film though.

Daniel Smith Posts: 970 Joined: Sep. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2008,11:51    I know, I know... You are all brilliant scientific minds - able to master complex arguments and logic - while I'm easily distracted by shiny things. You are all witty and hilarious - wordsmiths of the highest order - while I am not allowed around sharp objects. I get it. Anyway, here is an overview of the amino acid synthesis pathway for E. coli I've been harping about: Oxaloacetate (1) Aspartic Acid* (2) Asparagine* (3) (4) Aspartic ?-semialdehyde (5)(6)(7)(8)(9) Meso-diaminopimelate (10) Lysine* (11) Homoserine (18)(19)(20) Methionine* (12) Threonine* (13)(14)(15)(16)(17) Isoleucine* Notes: Amino acids are marked with an asterisk * Each number in parentheses represents a discrete biochemical step requiring a unique enzyme. (While constructing this little map, I noticed that I left a couple amino acids out of my original argument.  I've corrected that.) So boys, here is the challenge: 1.  Explain how this amino acid synthesis system in E. coli originated via natural mechanisms. 2.  Explain how and why each of the twenty unique enzymes came to be. To further complicate matters let me add here that enzymes are proteins, and proteins are made from (you guessed it) amino acids! So enzymes are required to make amino acids and amino acids are required to make enzymes. A divine catch-22! 3.  Explain how each of the twenty steps in the biochemical pathway came together in the correct order to form these essential amino acids. 4.  Tell us what the immediate precursor to the current system was. 5.  What were all the intermediate steps? Remember that this explanation must account for each enzyme and each step. 6.  Explain how each enzyme came to be regulated. These enzymes are only produced as needed. If enzymes were unregulated you could either have too many of them, causing a chemical imbalance or even cell rupture; or too few, which would stop amino acid synthesis. How did this regulation come about? Let me be honest though: at this point, I'm not expecting fine details from any of you.  I'll be happy with a guess.  Just take a guess!  Preferably one that goes somewhat beyond "oldmanintheskydidntdoit"!  At least try to imagine a scenario that would result in the current system. Remember, this is one of the simplest systems in one of the simplest unicellular lifeforms on the planet.  It is a basic, foundational system - not a highly complex, multicellular system such as the vision system, the circulatory system, or even skin, teeth or toenails.  Those systems are orders of magnitude more complex than this one. In my opinion, if you can't explain something as simple as this within the bounds of your theory, you should find a new theory. -------------- "If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance."  Orville Wright "The presence or absence of a creative super-intelligence is unequivocally a scientific question."  Richard Dawkins

Reciprocating Bill Posts: 4265 Joined: Oct. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2008,11:58    Quote (Daniel Smith @ Oct. 31 2008,12:51) In my opinion, if you can't explain something as simple as this within the bounds of your theory, you should find a new theory. Do we still have until the end of history to respond? Because your assertion was not that the history and origins of some systems remain unexplained or only incompletely explained (well, Duh!). It was that NO such system will EVER be explained. -------------- Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be. "The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." - David Foster Wallace "Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down." - Barry Arrington

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2008,12:09    Some amino acids existed before life forms were making them. So that catch-22 isn't one.

oldmanintheskydidntdoit Posts: 4999 Joined: July 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2008,12:09    Quote (Daniel Smith @ Oct. 31 2008,11:51) In my opinion, if you can't explain something as simple as this within the bounds of your theory, you should find a new theory. Who said it was "simple" ? Please provide a link or quotation Sloth. -------------- I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies". FTK if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand Gordon Mullings

oldmanintheskydidntdoit Posts: 4999 Joined: July 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2008,12:15    Quote (Daniel Smith @ Oct. 31 2008,11:51) Let me be honest though: at this point, I'm not expecting fine details from any of you.  I'll be happy with a guess.  Just take a guess!  Preferably one that goes somewhat beyond "oldmanintheskydidntdoit"!  At least try to imagine a scenario that would result in the current system. One wonders why anybody should bother, when your answer in it's entirery is simply that an old man in the sky did do it. Go on, take a guess at how that old man did it! Was it perhaps "think-poof"? Or maybe, as perhaps this old man is outside temporal reality as we understand it, "poof-think"? Or maybe think poof (that's both at the same time). Go on Sloth, have a guess! At least try and imagine, just like the bronze age people you admire so, such a scenario. While you are at it, could you explain why your god actually made E.coli in the first place? It seems to make people ill quite alot. Your god likes misery huh? -------------- I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies". FTK if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand Gordon Mullings

Spottedwind Posts: 83 Joined: Aug. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2008,12:27    Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Oct. 31 2008,13:15) While you are at it, could you explain why your god actually made E.coli in the first place? It seems to make people ill quite alot. Your god likes misery huh? silly oldman, God created E. coli to do good in this world. Then sin, brought into the world by Adam and Even, caused evolution, which then casued E. coli to make man sick. Learn more about The Sin Theory of Evolution but make sure to wear your seatbelt.  It's a hell of a ride. Or perhaps I should say Hell of a ride?

Daniel Smith Posts: 970 Joined: Sep. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2008,13:14    Quote (Henry J @ Oct. 31 2008,10:09) Some amino acids existed before life forms were making them. So that catch-22 isn't one. So your guess is that pre-existing amino acids formed enzymes that would later come in handy in the synthesis of amino acids? Well, at least you're trying! You do know that enzymes are highly specific, unique proteins that generally only catalyze one specific chemical reaction - don't you?  They're not really jack-of-all-trade type proteins. So what selective advantage would there be for these not-yet-functional enzymes under your scenario? -------------- "If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance."  Orville Wright "The presence or absence of a creative super-intelligence is unequivocally a scientific question."  Richard Dawkins

Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2008,13:24    Quote (Daniel Smith @ Oct. 31 2008,17:51) I know, I know... You are all brilliant scientific minds - able to master complex arguments and logic - while I'm easily distracted by shiny things. You are all witty and hilarious - wordsmiths of the highest order - while I am not allowed around sharp objects. I get it. [SNIP] Ummm no. Point = missed. Anyway, sarcasm doesn't become you, especially when you are making elementary logical mistakes. Louis -------------- Bye.

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 31 2008,13:27    My guess is that earliest life used the amino acids that were already present in the environment, and synthesis of others evolved later. Henry

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