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Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1036
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 09 2012,11:35   

Okay I can't resist this.



An archaeological team from the University of Pennsylvania used the above boat, made of reeds, to move a 9 ton block of rock to Tiwanaku. You can read more about that here, but here is a longish bit:

   
Quote
We sailed toward the town of Copacabana, an important pilgrimage site both today and during the pre-Columbian period. Previous geological analyses had indicated that the green andesite stones of Tiwanaku came from this volcanic peninsula that nearly divides Titicaca into two lakes. Around this peninsula one can also find piedras cansadas (“tired stones”) that had been abandoned in the past after having been roughly shaped and dragged to the shore. While our boat was under construction, we located an ideal stone on the outskirts of Copacabana,weighing more than 9 tons and measuring roughly 3 m by 1.3 m by 1 m—about the size of the celebrated Ponce monolith at Tiwanaku. This stone was perched on a steep incline about 20 m above a rocky shoreline. Over several days, 20 Aymara from the Isla del Sol filled the crevasses and troughs of the boulder field below the stone, creating a ramp leading to open water.

Using eucalyptus poles as levers to push and pry the stone and one very thick rope wrapped around it, a group ranging from 25 to 40 people moved the stone to the edge of the water in three days. We now moved the boat into place and anxiously wondered if, with one more push, our experiment would end ingloriously. Would the 9-ton stone tip our boat over, sink it, or even break through the boat? With the help of Bolivia’s navy, we rolled the stone off the ramp and into the boat. Everyone stood quietly for a moment, and then broke into a cheer when the boat held.


After some sailing they reach their destination:

 
Quote
Our destination was the hamlet of Santa Rosa on the Taraco peninsula, the shore closest to Tiwanaku where archaeological evidence indicates the stones were offloaded. A 13 m wide canal dating from the Colonial period (if not earlier) allowed us to sail directly into the shelter of its banks. Soon after we arrived, the town’s leaders came to greet us. They were enthusiastic and hospitable. They placed a bridge of eucalyptus between the boat and the bank of the canal, drew ropes around the stone, positioned levers, and lubricated the bridge with water. With about 50 people—men,women, and children—they rolled the stone off the boat and moved it 60 m up the bank in less than an hour with no organization from our team.


Examing the results of this experiment the researchers conclude:

   
Quote
The most surprising aspect about this project was how feasible it had been. The raw material, the totora, grows in huge and sustainable quantities along the lake’s edge. There were stretches of hard work, but it was accomplished for the most part in a rather tranquil manner by a single Aymara extended family. Large groups of people were needed only for short and rather festive efforts. During the voyage, we were frustrated at times by the currents and winds, and sometimes even afraid. But now that we had the method down and understood more about the lake, we could probably transport hundreds of tons of stone in a season before the boat gave out. All that would be required is the ability to organize and motivate different groups of people. That aspect, organizing diverse communities across 90 km of shoreline and open water, was our biggest challenge.We initially found this to be very frustrating and an obstacle to our pursuit of science and truth, but this is where the greatest insight from this project lays.


* Legal Disclaimer: No space aliens, real or otherwise, were harmed during the course of this experiment.

Edit to fix some formatting issues in the quotes.

--------------
Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 09 2012,11:44   

While my pizza is heating, I figured I'd delve into a more common definition of information.

Quote
Information theory is based on probability theory and statistics. The most important quantities of information are entropy, the information in a random variable, and mutual information, the amount of information in common between two random variables.


Well, that first sentence let's out Joe right there.  

Of course, the second sentence probably screws him up too. (Hint: This isn't the same entropy as in the second law of thermodynamics, which probably explains the creationist attempt to say that information can't increase, because entropy can't decrease... in a closed system.)

Quote
entropy, which is usually expressed by the average number of bits needed to store or communicate one symbol in a message.


Now, in our two DNA sequences... there are four characters in use.  Doesn't matter what they are, just that there are four of them.  We could spell them out, we could assign numbers, or code phrases (adenine = swamp ass).  But it doesn't matter, because there are still only 4 choices.

Therefore it only takes 2 bits to unambiguously identify those 4 options.  Two bits is also nice because it does not have any excess.  I.e. there is no repeatability (like how UCU, UCA, UCG, UCC, AGU, and AGC all stand for serine in translating mRNA -> amino acids).  So, 2 bits per letter really is the shortest possible sequence that we can describe these two molecules... without compression.  But since the tension is already so thick... nevermind.

Now, we have a total of 1698 characters in each sequence.  With 2 bits per characters, we get each sequence can be described with 3,396 bits.

Again, any changes in the sequence don't matter.  Because every bit is equivalent to every other bit.  01 is not somehow more important than 00.  So the the point mutation shown in bold does not (cannot) affect the actual information content in the sequence.

Since each sequence is 1698 characters, then each sequence is 3396 bits.

They contain the same amount of information.

Joe, do you agree or disagree?  If you disagree, state clearly why.

Again, because I know that you don't understand this.  This question has nothing to do with ID or any other notions that you may hold dear.  This is a simple question.

Using Shannon information theory, these two sequences have the same amount of information, correct?

--------------
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Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 09 2012,11:51   

Quote (afarensis @ Mar. 09 2012,12:35)
Okay I can't resist this.



An archaeological team from the University of Pennsylvania used the above boat, made of reeds, to move a 9 ton block of rock to Tiwanaku. You can read more about that here, but here is a longish bit:

   
Quote
We sailed toward the town of Copacabana, an important pilgrimage site both today and during the pre-Columbian period. Previous geological analyses had indicated that the green andesite stones of Tiwanaku came from this volcanic peninsula that nearly divides Titicaca into two lakes. Around this peninsula one can also find piedras cansadas (“tired stones”) that had been abandoned in the past after having been roughly shaped and dragged to the shore. While our boat was under construction, we located an ideal stone on the outskirts of Copacabana,weighing more than 9 tons and measuring roughly 3 m by 1.3 m by 1 m—about the size of the celebrated Ponce monolith at Tiwanaku. This stone was perched on a steep incline about 20 m above a rocky shoreline. Over several days, 20 Aymara from the Isla del Sol filled the crevasses and troughs of the boulder field below the stone, creating a ramp leading to open water.

Using eucalyptus poles as levers to push and pry the stone and one very thick rope wrapped around it, a group ranging from 25 to 40 people moved the stone to the edge of the water in three days. We now moved the boat into place and anxiously wondered if, with one more push, our experiment would end ingloriously. Would the 9-ton stone tip our boat over, sink it, or even break through the boat? With the help of Bolivia’s navy, we rolled the stone off the ramp and into the boat. Everyone stood quietly for a moment, and then broke into a cheer when the boat held.


After some sailing they reach their destination:

 
Quote
Our destination was the hamlet of Santa Rosa on the Taraco peninsula, the shore closest to Tiwanaku where archaeological evidence indicates the stones were offloaded. A 13 m wide canal dating from the Colonial period (if not earlier) allowed us to sail directly into the shelter of its banks. Soon after we arrived, the town’s leaders came to greet us. They were enthusiastic and hospitable. They placed a bridge of eucalyptus between the boat and the bank of the canal, drew ropes around the stone, positioned levers, and lubricated the bridge with water. With about 50 people—men,women, and children—they rolled the stone off the boat and moved it 60 m up the bank in less than an hour with no organization from our team.


Examing the results of this experiment the researchers conclude:

   
Quote
The most surprising aspect about this project was how feasible it had been. The raw material, the totora, grows in huge and sustainable quantities along the lake’s edge. There were stretches of hard work, but it was accomplished for the most part in a rather tranquil manner by a single Aymara extended family. Large groups of people were needed only for short and rather festive efforts. During the voyage, we were frustrated at times by the currents and winds, and sometimes even afraid. But now that we had the method down and understood more about the lake, we could probably transport hundreds of tons of stone in a season before the boat gave out. All that would be required is the ability to organize and motivate different groups of people. That aspect, organizing diverse communities across 90 km of shoreline and open water, was our biggest challenge.We initially found this to be very frustrating and an obstacle to our pursuit of science and truth, but this is where the greatest insight from this project lays.


* Legal Disclaimer: No space aliens, real or otherwise, were harmed during the course of this experiment.

Edit to fix some formatting issues in the quotes.

WHE'RE IS YOU'RE EVIDENCE TAHT NATURE, OPERATING FREELY, CAN LOAD A BOAT FULL OF INUITS AMYRA??/??

YA SEE, IOW, TAHTS HOW SCEINCE OPERATES, IT FINDS THINGS HARD TO BELIEEV, BASED ON TEH EVIDECNE.  

UNLESS YOU CAN DEMONSTARTE TAHT KEVIN IS A GENETIC ADDICENT IN WHCIH CASE HE IS GAY AND EVOTARDS LICK SHITTY DIAPRES

QED

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 09 2012,11:54   

Quote (afarensis @ Mar. 09 2012,11:35)
Okay I can't resist this.



An archaeological team from the University of Pennsylvania used the above boat, made of reeds, to move a 9 ton block of rock to Tiwanaku. You can read more about that here, but here is a longish bit:

   
Quote
We sailed toward the town of Copacabana, an important pilgrimage site both today and during the pre-Columbian period. Previous geological analyses had indicated that the green andesite stones of Tiwanaku came from this volcanic peninsula that nearly divides Titicaca into two lakes. Around this peninsula one can also find piedras cansadas (“tired stones”) that had been abandoned in the past after having been roughly shaped and dragged to the shore. While our boat was under construction, we located an ideal stone on the outskirts of Copacabana,weighing more than 9 tons and measuring roughly 3 m by 1.3 m by 1 m—about the size of the celebrated Ponce monolith at Tiwanaku. This stone was perched on a steep incline about 20 m above a rocky shoreline. Over several days, 20 Aymara from the Isla del Sol filled the crevasses and troughs of the boulder field below the stone, creating a ramp leading to open water.

Using eucalyptus poles as levers to push and pry the stone and one very thick rope wrapped around it, a group ranging from 25 to 40 people moved the stone to the edge of the water in three days. We now moved the boat into place and anxiously wondered if, with one more push, our experiment would end ingloriously. Would the 9-ton stone tip our boat over, sink it, or even break through the boat? With the help of Bolivia’s navy, we rolled the stone off the ramp and into the boat. Everyone stood quietly for a moment, and then broke into a cheer when the boat held.


After some sailing they reach their destination:

 
Quote
Our destination was the hamlet of Santa Rosa on the Taraco peninsula, the shore closest to Tiwanaku where archaeological evidence indicates the stones were offloaded. A 13 m wide canal dating from the Colonial period (if not earlier) allowed us to sail directly into the shelter of its banks. Soon after we arrived, the town’s leaders came to greet us. They were enthusiastic and hospitable. They placed a bridge of eucalyptus between the boat and the bank of the canal, drew ropes around the stone, positioned levers, and lubricated the bridge with water. With about 50 people—men,women, and children—they rolled the stone off the boat and moved it 60 m up the bank in less than an hour with no organization from our team.


Examing the results of this experiment the researchers conclude:

   
Quote
The most surprising aspect about this project was how feasible it had been. The raw material, the totora, grows in huge and sustainable quantities along the lake’s edge. There were stretches of hard work, but it was accomplished for the most part in a rather tranquil manner by a single Aymara extended family. Large groups of people were needed only for short and rather festive efforts. During the voyage, we were frustrated at times by the currents and winds, and sometimes even afraid. But now that we had the method down and understood more about the lake, we could probably transport hundreds of tons of stone in a season before the boat gave out. All that would be required is the ability to organize and motivate different groups of people. That aspect, organizing diverse communities across 90 km of shoreline and open water, was our biggest challenge.We initially found this to be very frustrating and an obstacle to our pursuit of science and truth, but this is where the greatest insight from this project lays.


* Legal Disclaimer: No space aliens, real or otherwise, were harmed during the course of this experiment.

Edit to fix some formatting issues in the quotes.

Well that's how it COULD have happened, but where you there!11!!?!?!?/11?1/?1/1

(actually, very interesting, I see some interesting work in this)

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Kattarina98



Posts: 1267
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 09 2012,12:13   

Quote (afarensis @ Mar. 09 2012,11:35)
Okay I can't resist this.



An archaeological team from the University of Pennsylvania used the above boat, made of reeds, to move a 9 ton block of rock to Tiwanaku. You can read more about that here, but here is a longish bit:

     
Quote
We sailed toward the town of Copacabana, an important pilgrimage site both today and during the pre-Columbian period. Previous geological analyses had indicated that the green andesite stones of Tiwanaku came from this volcanic peninsula that nearly divides Titicaca into two lakes. Around this peninsula one can also find piedras cansadas (“tired stones”) that had been abandoned in the past after having been roughly shaped and dragged to the shore. While our boat was under construction, we located an ideal stone on the outskirts of Copacabana,weighing more than 9 tons and measuring roughly 3 m by 1.3 m by 1 m—about the size of the celebrated Ponce monolith at Tiwanaku. This stone was perched on a steep incline about 20 m above a rocky shoreline. Over several days, 20 Aymara from the Isla del Sol filled the crevasses and troughs of the boulder field below the stone, creating a ramp leading to open water.

Using eucalyptus poles as levers to push and pry the stone and one very thick rope wrapped around it, a group ranging from 25 to 40 people moved the stone to the edge of the water in three days. We now moved the boat into place and anxiously wondered if, with one more push, our experiment would end ingloriously. Would the 9-ton stone tip our boat over, sink it, or even break through the boat? With the help of Bolivia’s navy, we rolled the stone off the ramp and into the boat. Everyone stood quietly for a moment, and then broke into a cheer when the boat held.


After some sailing they reach their destination:

   
Quote
Our destination was the hamlet of Santa Rosa on the Taraco peninsula, the shore closest to Tiwanaku where archaeological evidence indicates the stones were offloaded. A 13 m wide canal dating from the Colonial period (if not earlier) allowed us to sail directly into the shelter of its banks. Soon after we arrived, the town’s leaders came to greet us. They were enthusiastic and hospitable. They placed a bridge of eucalyptus between the boat and the bank of the canal, drew ropes around the stone, positioned levers, and lubricated the bridge with water. With about 50 people—men,women, and children—they rolled the stone off the boat and moved it 60 m up the bank in less than an hour with no organization from our team.


Examing the results of this experiment the researchers conclude:

     
Quote
The most surprising aspect about this project was how feasible it had been. The raw material, the totora, grows in huge and sustainable quantities along the lake’s edge. There were stretches of hard work, but it was accomplished for the most part in a rather tranquil manner by a single Aymara extended family. Large groups of people were needed only for short and rather festive efforts. During the voyage, we were frustrated at times by the currents and winds, and sometimes even afraid. But now that we had the method down and understood more about the lake, we could probably transport hundreds of tons of stone in a season before the boat gave out. All that would be required is the ability to organize and motivate different groups of people. That aspect, organizing diverse communities across 90 km of shoreline and open water, was our biggest challenge.We initially found this to be very frustrating and an obstacle to our pursuit of science and truth, but this is where the greatest insight from this project lays.


* Legal Disclaimer: No space aliens, real or otherwise, were harmed during the course of this experiment.

Edit to fix some formatting issues in the quotes.

Yeah, but all those locals who helped are the offspring of aliens who mated with humans.

ETA: This is brilliant! I bet the local population will never believe in that crap about aliens.

Edited by Kattarina98 on Mar. 09 2012,12:15

--------------
Barry Arrington is a bitch.

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 09 2012,12:53   

I don't know if it's funny or sad that three of us Poed the article.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Kattarina98



Posts: 1267
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 09 2012,13:35   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Mar. 09 2012,12:53)
I don't know if it's funny or sad that three of us Poed the article.

You may be on to something. In the absence of Captain Guano, we post his likely comments - could this be an unhealthy addiction?

--------------
Barry Arrington is a bitch.

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 09 2012,13:40   

Quote (Kattarina98 @ Mar. 09 2012,12:35)
Quote (OgreMkV @ Mar. 09 2012,12:53)
I don't know if it's funny or sad that three of us Poed the article.

You may be on to something. In the absence of Captain Guano, we post his likely comments - could this be an unhealthy addiction?

Oh you Poe things. Maybe if you just said "nevermore"?  :p  :)

  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1036
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 09 2012,13:43   

Quote (Kattarina98 @ Mar. 09 2012,12:13)
[quote=afarensis,Mar. 09 2012,11:35]Okay I can't resist this.

snip

ETA: This is brilliant! I bet the local population will never believe in that crap about aliens.

Pisses them off actually...

--------------
Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 09 2012,14:15   

http://www.uncommondescent.com/darwini....-422123

Quote
1JoeMarch 9, 2012 at 12:50 pm
The new mantra:

“It only looks designed to you. It doesn’t look designed to me. Therefor I don’t have anything to explain.”

Well, you still have to explain what we observe.

“IDiot!”


So we have to explain what you think you see, but ID doesn't have to explain anything. More 'positive case for ID', no doubt.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 09 2012,14:26   

Quote (Kattarina98 @ Mar. 09 2012,13:35)
Quote (OgreMkV @ Mar. 09 2012,12:53)
I don't know if it's funny or sad that three of us Poed the article.

You may be on to something. In the absence of Captain Guano, we post his likely comments - could this be an unhealthy addiction?

I take solace in the fact that no matter how hard we try... we could never reach the depths of Joe's stupidity.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Kattarina98



Posts: 1267
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 09 2012,14:27   

To drive my point home - don't underestimate ancient cultures:  
Quote
One historical document indicates that the community of Jesus de Machaca, one valley over from Tiwanaku, actually wrote to the Protestant King of England to offer an alliance against the Catholic Spanish. This document dates to 1571, demonstrating a well- developed sense of geopolitics and European rivalries less than 40 years after the Spanish invasion.


From the paper afarensis linked to.

--------------
Barry Arrington is a bitch.

  
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 09 2012,17:05   

[quote=afarensis,Mar. 09 2012,17:35]



       
Quote
We sailed toward the town of Copacabana, an important pilgrimage site both today and during the pre-Columbian period. Previous geological analyses had indicated that the green andesite stones of Tiwanaku came from this volcanic peninsula that nearly divides Titicaca into two lakes. Around this peninsula one can also find piedras cansadas (“tired stones”) that had been abandoned in the past after having been roughly shaped and dragged to the shore. While our boat was under construction, we located an ideal stone on the outskirts of Copacabana,weighing more than 9 tons and measuring roughly 3 m by 1.3 m by 1 m—about the size of the celebrated Ponce monolith at Tiwanaku. This stone was perched on a steep incline about 20 m above a rocky shoreline. Over several days, 20 Aymara from the Isla del Sol filled the crevasses and troughs of the boulder field below the stone, creating a ramp leading to open water.


Copacabana???

Omigod, this means that the Designer must be . . .


Edited by Amadan on Mar. 09 2012,23:06

--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Woodbine



Posts: 1218
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 09 2012,17:07   

The Bermuda Triangle!

See, it all fits!

:O

  
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1036
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 09 2012,18:04   

Quote (Amadan @ Mar. 09 2012,17:05)
[quote=afarensis,Mar. 09 2012,17:35]



         
Quote
We sailed toward the town of Copacabana, an important pilgrimage site both today and during the pre-Columbian period. Previous geological analyses had indicated that the green andesite stones of Tiwanaku came from this volcanic peninsula that nearly divides Titicaca into two lakes. Around this peninsula one can also find piedras cansadas (“tired stones”) that had been abandoned in the past after having been roughly shaped and dragged to the shore. While our boat was under construction, we located an ideal stone on the outskirts of Copacabana,weighing more than 9 tons and measuring roughly 3 m by 1.3 m by 1 m—about the size of the celebrated Ponce monolith at Tiwanaku. This stone was perched on a steep incline about 20 m above a rocky shoreline. Over several days, 20 Aymara from the Isla del Sol filled the crevasses and troughs of the boulder field below the stone, creating a ramp leading to open water.


Copacabana???

Omigod, this means that the Designer must be . . .

That does explain why all the women in the area are named Mandy...

--------------
Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 09 2012,18:37   

***FLASHBACK***

When we were in college, we adapted the kids' game of 'Donkey' (where a few kids throw each other a ball, and each person who drops it adds a letter until the loser is a Donkey nyaaaahhh haaaa) to heading a ball, the loser becoming a B A R R Y   M A N I L O W   F A N

--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Joe G



Posts: 12011
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 11 2012,10:32   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 09 2012,14:15)
[URL=http://www.uncommondescent.com/darwinism/question-for-barry-why-do-people-embrace-darwin-today-when-his-cause-is-actually-collapsin

g-in-science/#comment-422123]http://www.uncommondescent.com/darwini....-422123[/URL]

[font=Comic Sans MS]
Quote
1JoeMarch 9, 2012 at 12:50 pm
The new mantra:

“It only looks designed to you. It doesn’t look designed to me. Therefor I don’t have anything to explain.”

Well, you still have to explain what we observe.

“IDiot!”</span>


So we have to explain what you think you see, but ID doesn't have to explain anything. More 'positive case for ID', no doubt.

No, dumbass, you have to explain living organisms- or do you not observe them?

You have to explain bacterial flagella, but you can't.

It doesn't matter if you say neither looks designed to you. You still have to explain them.

--------------
"Facts are Stupid"- Timothy Horton aka Occam's Afterbirth

"Genetic mutations aren't mistakes"-ID and Timothy Horton

Whales do not have tails. Water turns to ice via a molecular code-  Acartia bogart, TARD

YEC is more coherent than materialism and it's bastard child, evolutionism

   
Joe G



Posts: 12011
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 11 2012,10:34   

Quote (afarensis @ Mar. 09 2012,11:35)
Okay I can't resist this.



An archaeological team from the University of Pennsylvania used the above boat, made of reeds, to move a 9 ton block of rock to Tiwanaku. You can read more about that here, but here is a longish bit:

   
Quote
We sailed toward the town of Copacabana, an important pilgrimage site both today and during the pre-Columbian period. Previous geological analyses had indicated that the green andesite stones of Tiwanaku came from this volcanic peninsula that nearly divides Titicaca into two lakes. Around this peninsula one can also find piedras cansadas (“tired stones”) that had been abandoned in the past after having been roughly shaped and dragged to the shore. While our boat was under construction, we located an ideal stone on the outskirts of Copacabana,weighing more than 9 tons and measuring roughly 3 m by 1.3 m by 1 m—about the size of the celebrated Ponce monolith at Tiwanaku. This stone was perched on a steep incline about 20 m above a rocky shoreline. Over several days, 20 Aymara from the Isla del Sol filled the crevasses and troughs of the boulder field below the stone, creating a ramp leading to open water.

Using eucalyptus poles as levers to push and pry the stone and one very thick rope wrapped around it, a group ranging from 25 to 40 people moved the stone to the edge of the water in three days. We now moved the boat into place and anxiously wondered if, with one more push, our experiment would end ingloriously. Would the 9-ton stone tip our boat over, sink it, or even break through the boat? With the help of Bolivia’s navy, we rolled the stone off the ramp and into the boat. Everyone stood quietly for a moment, and then broke into a cheer when the boat held.


After some sailing they reach their destination:

 
Quote
Our destination was the hamlet of Santa Rosa on the Taraco peninsula, the shore closest to Tiwanaku where archaeological evidence indicates the stones were offloaded. A 13 m wide canal dating from the Colonial period (if not earlier) allowed us to sail directly into the shelter of its banks. Soon after we arrived, the town’s leaders came to greet us. They were enthusiastic and hospitable. They placed a bridge of eucalyptus between the boat and the bank of the canal, drew ropes around the stone, positioned levers, and lubricated the bridge with water. With about 50 people—men,women, and children—they rolled the stone off the boat and moved it 60 m up the bank in less than an hour with no organization from our team.


Examing the results of this experiment the researchers conclude:

   
Quote
The most surprising aspect about this project was how feasible it had been. The raw material, the totora, grows in huge and sustainable quantities along the lake’s edge. There were stretches of hard work, but it was accomplished for the most part in a rather tranquil manner by a single Aymara extended family. Large groups of people were needed only for short and rather festive efforts. During the voyage, we were frustrated at times by the currents and winds, and sometimes even afraid. But now that we had the method down and understood more about the lake, we could probably transport hundreds of tons of stone in a season before the boat gave out. All that would be required is the ability to organize and motivate different groups of people. That aspect, organizing diverse communities across 90 km of shoreline and open water, was our biggest challenge.We initially found this to be very frustrating and an obstacle to our pursuit of science and truth, but this is where the greatest insight from this project lays.


* Legal Disclaimer: No space aliens, real or otherwise, were harmed during the course of this experiment.

Edit to fix some formatting issues in the quotes.

How did the cut and carve the granite and diorite?

There are signs of machining- and BTW there are also stones weighing well over 9 tons.

--------------
"Facts are Stupid"- Timothy Horton aka Occam's Afterbirth

"Genetic mutations aren't mistakes"-ID and Timothy Horton

Whales do not have tails. Water turns to ice via a molecular code-  Acartia bogart, TARD

YEC is more coherent than materialism and it's bastard child, evolutionism

   
Joe G



Posts: 12011
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 11 2012,10:41   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Mar. 09 2012,11:44)
While my pizza is heating, I figured I'd delve into a more common definition of information.

Quote
Information theory is based on probability theory and statistics. The most important quantities of information are entropy, the information in a random variable, and mutual information, the amount of information in common between two random variables.


Well, that first sentence let's out Joe right there.  

Of course, the second sentence probably screws him up too. (Hint: This isn't the same entropy as in the second law of thermodynamics, which probably explains the creationist attempt to say that information can't increase, because entropy can't decrease... in a closed system.)

Quote
entropy, which is usually expressed by the average number of bits needed to store or communicate one symbol in a message.


Now, in our two DNA sequences... there are four characters in use.  Doesn't matter what they are, just that there are four of them.  We could spell them out, we could assign numbers, or code phrases (adenine = swamp ass).  But it doesn't matter, because there are still only 4 choices.

Therefore it only takes 2 bits to unambiguously identify those 4 options.  Two bits is also nice because it does not have any excess.  I.e. there is no repeatability (like how UCU, UCA, UCG, UCC, AGU, and AGC all stand for serine in translating mRNA -> amino acids).  So, 2 bits per letter really is the shortest possible sequence that we can describe these two molecules... without compression.  But since the tension is already so thick... nevermind.

Now, we have a total of 1698 characters in each sequence.  With 2 bits per characters, we get each sequence can be described with 3,396 bits.

Again, any changes in the sequence don't matter.  Because every bit is equivalent to every other bit.  01 is not somehow more important than 00.  So the the point mutation shown in bold does not (cannot) affect the actual information content in the sequence.

Since each sequence is 1698 characters, then each sequence is 3396 bits.

They contain the same amount of information.

Joe, do you agree or disagree?  If you disagree, state clearly why.

Again, because I know that you don't understand this.  This question has nothing to do with ID or any other notions that you may hold dear.  This is a simple question.

Using Shannon information theory, these two sequences have the same amount of information, correct?

Kevin- as I have already told you Shannon is useless here as Shannon only refers to mere complexity and information carrying capacity. Meyer goes over that in "Signature in the Cell"

"Information" as IDists use it is the same as Information Technology- it has to convey meaning or have a function.

And as I have also told you variational tolerance is key because if any polypeptide can perform the function then it isn't specified.

Information. The information age. Information technology. Information theory.

When IDists speak of complex specified information they are using it in the following sense:

information- the attribute inherent in and communicated by one of two or more alternative sequences or arrangements of something (as nucleotides in DNA or binary digits in a computer program) that produce specific effects

It is producing those specific events which make the information specified!

When Shannon developed his information theory he was not concerned about "specific effects":
Quote

The word information in this theory is used in a special mathematical sense that must not be confused with its ordinary usage. In particular, information must not be confused with meaning.- Warren Weaver, one of Shannon's collaborators


And that is what separates mere complexity (Shannon) from specified complexity.

--------------
"Facts are Stupid"- Timothy Horton aka Occam's Afterbirth

"Genetic mutations aren't mistakes"-ID and Timothy Horton

Whales do not have tails. Water turns to ice via a molecular code-  Acartia bogart, TARD

YEC is more coherent than materialism and it's bastard child, evolutionism

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 11 2012,10:43   

Hey, everybody?  Looks who's back.  



--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Joe G



Posts: 12011
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 11 2012,10:44   

Quote (afarensis @ Mar. 09 2012,13:43)
[quote=Kattarina98,Mar. 09 2012,12:13]
Quote (afarensis @ Mar. 09 2012,11:35)
Okay I can't resist this.

snip

ETA: This is brilliant! I bet the local population will never believe in that crap about aliens.

Pisses them off actually...

Quote
'A story was told by the local Aymara indians to a Spanish traveller who visited Tiahuanaco shortly after the conquest spoke of the city's original foundation in the age of Chamac Pacha, or First Creation,  long before the coming of the Incas. Its earliest inhabitants, they said,  possessed supernatural powers, for which they were able miraculously to lift stones of off the ground, which "...were carried [from the mountain quarries] through the air to the sound of a trumpet'. -David Zink. The Ancient Stones Speak. 1979. Musson Books



--------------
"Facts are Stupid"- Timothy Horton aka Occam's Afterbirth

"Genetic mutations aren't mistakes"-ID and Timothy Horton

Whales do not have tails. Water turns to ice via a molecular code-  Acartia bogart, TARD

YEC is more coherent than materialism and it's bastard child, evolutionism

   
Joe G



Posts: 12011
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 11 2012,10:46   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Mar. 11 2012,10:43)
Hey, everybody?  Looks who's back.  

And carlsonjok farts, right on cue....

--------------
"Facts are Stupid"- Timothy Horton aka Occam's Afterbirth

"Genetic mutations aren't mistakes"-ID and Timothy Horton

Whales do not have tails. Water turns to ice via a molecular code-  Acartia bogart, TARD

YEC is more coherent than materialism and it's bastard child, evolutionism

   
Joe G



Posts: 12011
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 11 2012,10:50   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Mar. 09 2012,07:36)
Quote (Joe G @ Mar. 09 2012,06:56)
Man you are fucking dense- the who and how are separate questions- just as the ToE and teh OoL are separate questions- even though how life originated directly affects any subsequent evolution.

Anyone else spot the fundamental error?

Hey Joe, How old is the Earth?

Geez, strange how Kevbo never supports anything- please tell us about this alleged "fundamental error"?

--------------
"Facts are Stupid"- Timothy Horton aka Occam's Afterbirth

"Genetic mutations aren't mistakes"-ID and Timothy Horton

Whales do not have tails. Water turns to ice via a molecular code-  Acartia bogart, TARD

YEC is more coherent than materialism and it's bastard child, evolutionism

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 11 2012,10:50   

Quote (Joe G @ Mar. 11 2012,10:46)
Quote (carlsonjok @ Mar. 11 2012,10:43)
Hey, everybody?  Looks who's back.  

And carlsonjok farts, right on cue....

I've noticed, Joe, is that no one over at UD seems to talk to you much.  It must suck that you have to come here for any kind of human interaction.  



--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
olegt



Posts: 1405
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 11 2012,10:53   

Quote (Joe G @ Mar. 11 2012,10:41)
And that is what separates mere complexity (Shannon) from specified complexity.

Shannon's measure of information has nothing to do with complexity. Kolmogorov's does.

--------------
If you are not:
Galapagos Finch
please Logout »

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 11 2012,10:55   

Quote (olegt @ Mar. 11 2012,10:53)
Quote (Joe G @ Mar. 11 2012,10:41)
And that is what separates mere complexity (Shannon) from specified complexity.

Shannon's measure of information has nothing to do with complexity. Kolmogorov's does.



--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Joe G



Posts: 12011
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 11 2012,10:57   

Quote (afarensis @ Mar. 09 2012,10:36)
Quote
Man you are fucking dense- the who and how are separate questions- just as the ToE and teh OoL are separate questions- even though how life originated directly affects any subsequent evolution.


Apparently, I was being to subtle, so let me be more straightforward. ID is trying to somehow claim archaeology as a "Design Science" however until ID mans up and starts making inferences about the designer, which archaeologists do routinely (it's what archaeology is about), they are engaging in rampant intellectual dishonesty. Over and above that ID's "design detection" methodology is nowhere as sophisticated as that found in archaeology.

Quote
How can anyone prove a human didit wrt ancient events?


No one witnessed this alluvial fan being formed, but we can still prove gravity did it.



Think about that for a bit.

Dude, buy a fucking vowel- archaeologists cannot say one fucking thing about the designers until they determine they even existed. And they do that by finding evidence of their existence via the determination of artifacts

And the only way they make any scientific determination about the designer(s) is by studying the design and the relevant evidence. That is what Intellignet Design is all about. And all the other questions prove that ID is not a dead-end as there are obviously unanswered questions that we will attempt to answer.

Stonehenge, made up of stones, stones mother nature can produce yet for some reason no one thinks mother nature produced Stonehenge. And after centuries of study we still don't know exactly who nor how...

--------------
"Facts are Stupid"- Timothy Horton aka Occam's Afterbirth

"Genetic mutations aren't mistakes"-ID and Timothy Horton

Whales do not have tails. Water turns to ice via a molecular code-  Acartia bogart, TARD

YEC is more coherent than materialism and it's bastard child, evolutionism

   
Joe G



Posts: 12011
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 11 2012,10:58   

Quote (olegt @ Mar. 11 2012,10:53)
Quote (Joe G @ Mar. 11 2012,10:41)
And that is what separates mere complexity (Shannon) from specified complexity.

Shannon's measure of information has nothing to do with complexity. Kolmogorov's does.

You really need to focus on context....

--------------
"Facts are Stupid"- Timothy Horton aka Occam's Afterbirth

"Genetic mutations aren't mistakes"-ID and Timothy Horton

Whales do not have tails. Water turns to ice via a molecular code-  Acartia bogart, TARD

YEC is more coherent than materialism and it's bastard child, evolutionism

   
Joe G



Posts: 12011
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 11 2012,11:00   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Mar. 11 2012,10:50)
Quote (Joe G @ Mar. 11 2012,10:46)
 
Quote (carlsonjok @ Mar. 11 2012,10:43)
Hey, everybody?  Looks who's back.  

And carlsonjok farts, right on cue....

I've noticed, Joe, is that no one over at UD seems to talk to you much.  It must suck that you have to come here for any kind of human interaction.  

I've noticed, dickhead, is evotards are full of themselves and are a bunch of gossiping cowards, and are not humans.

--------------
"Facts are Stupid"- Timothy Horton aka Occam's Afterbirth

"Genetic mutations aren't mistakes"-ID and Timothy Horton

Whales do not have tails. Water turns to ice via a molecular code-  Acartia bogart, TARD

YEC is more coherent than materialism and it's bastard child, evolutionism

   
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 11 2012,11:02   

Quote (Joe G @ Mar. 11 2012,10:57)
And after centuries of study we still don't know exactly who nor how...

But we know who. Human beings.

If you want the name of the builder the invoice is probably gone after all this time. So too bad.

And that's much more then ID can tell us about anything at all. Human beings built Stonehenge. That single sentence contains more hard facts then ID does in it's entirety.

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
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