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Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2006,15:22   

Quote
And you were the one who invited me here.


i invited reasoned response from you on a specific thread, which, btw, you never gave, as usual.

you're nothing more than a lackwit troll.

congratulations on your achievment.

Quote
Quote (tiredofthesos @ Oct. 08 2006,16:55)
Not being a scientist...

That much is clear.


indeed the same can be said of yourself, but at least sos is honest about his limitations.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2006,16:05   

Quote (Ichthyic @ Oct. 08 2006,20:22)

Quote
i invited reasoned response from you on a specific thread, which, btw, you never gave, as usual.


I disagree.

Quote
indeed the same can be said of yourself [sic], but at least sos is honest about his limitations.


I am in the mathematical sciences.

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Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2006,16:18   

Quote
I disagree.


typical answer.

just to demonstrate why your answers are so worthless.

great job.

...and the fact you do math doesn't make you a scientist, but of course you couldn't admit that, as I expected.

lackwit fraud.

lol.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2006,16:57   

Quote (Ichthyic @ Oct. 08 2006,21:18)
...and the fact you do math doesn't make you a scientist, but of course you couldn't admit that, as I expected.

Not all sciences are empirical.

--------------
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2006,17:19   

so, what then makes you think you are qualified to comment on ones that are, any more than sos?

the answer is quite simple, you're no more an empirical scientist that he claims to be.

as i stated initially, and you are unable to accept.

go on, keep lying to yourself there, lackwit fraud.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
tiredofthesos



Posts: 59
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2006,00:00   

Since we're at the wall, Robert O, whatever intelligence you may have is the sort that pond scum might produce.  You are a silly, pompous, and blitheringly dull fraud, whatever your tinkering-with-numbers skill may be (perhaps some sort of "Rainman" talent, eh?).

 You are a really dull, shitty human being, by any sensible person's judgement.

 Fuck you and the horse's ass your head has been surgically attached within.  You aren't worth the cow that died to make your stinking belt.

   :D

  
Robert O'Brien



Posts: 348
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2006,04:27   

Quote (tiredofthesos @ Oct. 09 2006,05:00)
Since we're at the wall, Robert O, whatever intelligence you may have is the sort that pond scum might produce.  You are a silly, pompous, and blitheringly dull fraud, whatever your tinkering-with-numbers skill may be (perhaps some sort of "Rainman" talent, eh?).

 You are a really dull, shitty human being, by any sensible person's judgement.

 Fuck you and the horse's ass your head has been surgically attached within.  You aren't worth the cow that died to make your stinking belt.

   :D

That is an anencephalic rejoinder if I have ever seen one.

--------------
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

    
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2006,16:55   

Quote
Quote (Glen Davidson @ Oct. 09 2006,18:22)
Yeah yeah, so you don't understand the point of extended explanations, and must fault what you don't understand.  Nothing new in the promotion of know-nothingness and a preference for reductive simplicity.

I noted when responding to Martin that scientists often don't respect philosophers, thanks to people like Martin.  On the other hand, the contempt of the unknowing scientists who have to put down philosophy for not boiling down to single sentences puts a strain in the other direction.  

Then again, if I quoted Einstein's philosophical writings without crediting him, you'd probably make the same benighted and unsupported assertions, simply because you don't know or care about covering the bases.  

Besides which, you don't even get my name right, showing just how little you paid attention to what I wrote, and how prejudicial you are being.  Sorry I can't be as glib and unlearned as yourself in philosophical affairs, but then I never wanted to be.

It's just attack, with about as little concern for the truth as Pim evinces.  You don't, and presumably can't, back up your claims any more than he can, however you will fault what you don't understand.  It's the usual anti-intellectualism, fed by egoism and a lack of concern about what others know.  Had I faulted you for trite and glib answers, you might understand what I mean.  But I haven't, since I do recognize the need for various voices in response to pseudoscience.  Too bad that you do not.

Glen D

You are a philosopher? That explains things. Materialistic philosophers like to hear the sound of their own braying.
Quote
Ichthyic



Posts: 1803
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 09 2006,22:33  
RO, zooming in late in his WWI fighter plane, with yet another lackwit one-liner.

*sigh*

   
Ved



Posts: 398
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,06:05   

I'm pre-moving my post here to the BW...
Quote (Phillip Bruce Heywood @ ,the PT CERN thread)
It negates the words of Christ, St Paul and others, where they say or imply the immutability of various “kinds”, such as the impossibility of thorns bearing grapes or figs, or whatever.

Hey Heywood, have a raspberry!  :p  :p  :p

  
Take It To AtBC

Unregistered



(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,09:03   

PBH sputters on:
<quote>and, viola! - no controversy.
</quote>

Thanks for clearing that up, PBH.  Here there's been some controversy involving stringed instruments, and nobody else even bothered to tell us!

Where would we be without you?

Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,12:35   

Careful, Ved.  You never know what kinds of things go on in here....

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
HG

Unregistered



(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,12:48   

Comment #138246
<blockquote>Posted by Flint on October 9, 2006 02:57 PM (e)

HG:

Can a presumption be objectively proven?

"Nope. Nothing in science can be objectively proven. But of course, science does not CLAIM that all natural phenomena have natural causes, as a statement of philosophy. Science merely relies on a method that would fail otherwise, but which seems to work very well. Just because natural explanations work, does not and can not rule out other possible explanations, and science doesn’t rule them out. There is no presumption that what can’t be investigated, doesn’t exist. There’s no natural basis for making such a claim."</blockquote>

Flint,

I appreciate your efforts to explain your answer.  Please bear with me a bit longer.  You posted also "presumption that natural phenomena have natural causes".  The context of my question was meant to address this presumption, which as you state, must be made in order for science not to fail.  I just want to make sure we are on the same page here, and judging by your answer, we are.

The results of science would be the same whether science CLAIMS and strictly PRACTICES 'all natual phenomena have natural causes' or just strictly PRACTICES this philosophy.  The point is that this presumption is based upon philosophy -- a philosophy that cannot be objectively proven.  So help me to understand why another philosophy such as natural philosophy would be unacceptable.  Maybe it has to do with the scientific method failing?

Just a note:  This is intended for Flint.  If you must respond, try a little civility.  After all, we are all adults here.  Yesterday's thread was a whirlwind.

HG

Unregistered



(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,14:10   

I am coming to some conclusions about science based in part on my time spent here.

1.  Science is a tool limited by its PRACTICE of methodological naturalism.

2.  If the supernatural exists science can never prove it.  So science may not know when it has missed evidence of the supernatural.  Therefore, the possibility exists that in a scientific investigation where supernatural evidence may be present, the investigation may not consider all the evidence.  This means science may find itself in an investigation which is beyond the limits of science -- if the supernatural exists and is present.

3.  Theories of science reached in investigations described in #2, cannot rule out the possibility of other means of explanation, except to say they are not scientific.  (E.g. if evidence of supernatural intelligence exists, a scientific investigation of origins may theorize naturalistic causes but cannot rule out the possibility of supernatural causes.)  

4.  A scientist who does not accept naturalism as a world-view may still be able to practice methodological naturalism as required by science.  Likely, only those who do hold to a belief in naturalism will outright dismiss #2 & #3.  This would also likely hold true for those of other philosophical perspectives such as materialism.  They will not only likely dismiss #2 & #3, but believe the scientific results of such investigations to be absolute truth.

5.  (This one is based upon my limited knowledge of ID, and is more an observation)  Until such time that science can include phenomena currently labeled supernatural, science should remain in its current form and practice with those studying it having a good grasp of #1-4.  Other forms, such as ID must continue outside of science as currently defined and practiced.

Of course these are my conclusions and subject to revision as I follow this debate.

Mike Elzinga

Unregistered



(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,14:17   

What does HG mean by "supernatural evidence"? How would science know whether or not such evidence existed?

'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank

Unregistered



(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 10 2006,20:10   

<quote>I am coming to some conclusions about science based in part on my time spent here.</quote>

Yes, yes, yes --- you don't like the fact that science doesn't pay any attention to your religious opinions.  We got it.

How many more threads do you intend to bitch about it in?

Geez.

Flint



Posts: 478
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2006,05:17   

On the off-chance that anyone will ever wander over here and read it:

Quote
The moment one...opens the door to supernatural interventions...explanatory chaos breaks loose, since there are no known constraints upon processes that transcend natural laws.  A supernatural force could be called upon to “explain” any event in any circumstance; ...  However, the concept of a transcendent designer or other miraculous force that can explain any event under any set of conditions is no explanation at all. - Robert Pennock


In other words, ruling out the supernatural isn't a matter of philosphy, it's a matter of practical necessity. The only known alternative is called 'Making Stuff Up', which has extremely limited explanatory or predictive power.

So HG is correct: the scientific method, and indeed sanity itself, fails if we extend our presumptions to include the imaginary. And if it lacks all evidence, it's imaginary.

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2006,07:43   

on the contrary...

made up stuff has absolutely perfect predictive power, so long as you keep the made up stuff of a general enough content.

just ask Miss Cleo!

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Flint



Posts: 478
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2006,08:54   

Ichthyic:

By Jove, you're right. Here's one now:

"This might not be a good day to take unnecessary risks. Maintaining a positive attitude will improve your spirits."

Yep, good predictive power there.

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1776
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2006,09:32   

Quote (Flint @ Oct. 11 2006,10:17)
On the off-chance that anyone will ever wander over here and read it:

   
Quote
The moment one...opens the door to supernatural interventions...explanatory chaos breaks loose, since there are no known constraints upon processes that transcend natural laws.  A supernatural force could be called upon to “explain” any event in any circumstance; ...  However, the concept of a transcendent designer or other miraculous force that can explain any event under any set of conditions is no explanation at all. - Robert Pennock


In other words, ruling out the supernatural isn't a matter of philosphy, it's a matter of practical necessity. The only known alternative is called 'Making Stuff Up', which has extremely limited explanatory or predictive power.

So HG is correct: the scientific method, and indeed sanity itself, fails if we extend our presumptions to include the imaginary. And if it lacks all evidence, it's imaginary.

Invoking the supernatural may indeed have useless predictive aplication.

But the ability to explain stuff is enormous. Everything can be explained by the supernatural. In fact a lot of things used to be.

eg. Lightning was caused by Zeus/Thor etc. People got certain illnesses because they had sinned before God.

  
Flint



Posts: 478
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2006,10:20   

Stephen:

Pennock's point was that the ability of magic to explain stuff is TOO enormous. It allows exactly the same "explanation" to be applied to anything and everything. Which is why Pennock said this is "no explanation at all".

There's a close relationship between explanation and test. If it can't be tested, it's not an explanation at all (however it might be phrased), it's wishful thinking. If it can be tested but has not been, it's also not an explanation, it's a conjecture or hypothesis.

If it can be tested, has been tested, and failed the test, then it is ALSO not an explanation. It's a lie.

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1776
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2006,11:14   

Quote (Flint @ Oct. 11 2006,15:20)
Stephen:

Pennock's point was that the ability of magic to explain stuff is TOO enormous. It allows exactly the same "explanation" to be applied to anything and everything. Which is why Pennock said this is "no explanation at all".

There's a close relationship between explanation and test. If it can't be tested, it's not an explanation at all (however it might be phrased), it's wishful thinking. If it can be tested but has not been, it's also not an explanation, it's a conjecture or hypothesis.

If it can be tested, has been tested, and failed the test, then it is ALSO not an explanation. It's a lie.

Agreed.

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2006,16:00   

I doubt HG will read this (or understand it if he does) but I will once again post my standard response to all the ID "science unfairly rules out the supernatural, boo hoo hoo!!!" crapola:


The scientific method is very simple, and consists of five basic steps. They are:

1. Observe some aspect of the universe

2. Form a hypothesis that potentially explains what you have observed

3. Make testible predictions from that hypothesis

4. Make observations or experiments that can test those predictions

5. Modify your hypothesis until it is in accord with all observations and predictions

NOTHING in any of those five steps excludes on principle, a priori, any “supernatural cause”. Using this method, one is entirely free to invoke as many non-material pixies, ghosts, goddesses, demons, devils, djinis, and/or the Great Pumpkin, as many times as you like, in any or all of your hypotheses. And science won’t (and doesn’t) object to that in the slightest. Indeed, scientific experiments have been proposed (and carried out and published) on such “supernatural causes” as the effects of prayer on healing, as well as such “non-materialistic” or “non-natural” causes as ESP, telekinesis, precognition and “remote viewing”. So ID’s claim that science unfairly rejects supernatural or non-material causes out of hand on principle, is demonstrably quite wrong.

However, what science DOES require is that any supernatural or non-material hypothesis, whatever it might be, then be subjected to steps 3, 4 and 5. And HERE is where ID fails miserably.

To demonstate this, let’s pick a particular example of an ID hypothesis and see how the scientific method can be applied to it: One claim made by many ID creationists explains the genetic similarity between humans and chimps by asserting that God — uh, I mean, An Unknown Intelligent Designer — created both but used common features in a common design.

Let’s take this hypothesis and put it through the scientific method:

1. Observe some aspect of the universe.

OK, so we observe that humans and chimps share unique genetic markers, including a broken vitamin C gene and, in humans, a fused chromosome that is identical to two of the chimp chromosomes (with all the appropriate doubled centromeres and telomeres).

2. Invent a tentative description, called a hypothesis, that is consistent with what you have observed.

OK, the proposed ID hypothesis is “an intelligent designer used a common design to produce both chimps and humans, and that common design included placing the signs of a fused chromosome and a broken vitamin C gene in both products.”

3. Use the hypothesis to make predictions.

Well, here is ID supernaturalistic methodology’s chance to shine. What predictions can we make from ID’s hypothesis? If an Intelligent Designer used a common design to produce both chimps and humans, then we would also expect to see … ?

IDers, please fill in the blank.

And, to better help us test ID’s hypothesis, it is most useful to point out some negative predictions — things which, if found, would FALSIFY the hypothesis and demonstrate conclusively that the hypothesis is wrong. So, then — if we find (fill in the blank here), then the “common design” hypothesis would have to be rejected.

4. Test those predictions by experiments or further observations and modify the hypothesis in the light of your results.

5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 until there are no discrepancies between theory and experiment and/or observation.

Well, the IDers seem to be sort of stuck on step 3. Despite all their voluminous writings and arguments, IDers have never yet given ANY testible predictions from their ID hypothesis that can be verified through experiment.

Take note here — contrary to the IDers whining about the “unfair exclusion of supernatural causes”, there are in fact NO limits imposed by the scientific method on the nature of their predictions, other than the simple ones indicated by steps 3, 4 and 5 (whatever predictions they make must be testible by experiments or further observations.) They are entirely free to invoke whatever supernatural causes they like, in whatever number they like, so long as they follow along to steps 3,4 and 5 and tell us how we can test these deities or causes using experiment or further observation. Want to tell us that the Good Witch Glenda used her magic non-naturalistic staff to POP these genetic sequences into both chimps and humans? Fine —- just tell us what experiment or observation we can perform to test that. Want to tell us that God — er, I mean The Unknown Intelligent Designer — didn’t like humans very much and therefore decided to design us with broken vitamin C genes? Hey, works for me — just as soon as you tell us what experiment or observation we can perform to test it. Feel entirely and totally free to use all the supernaturalistic causes that you like. Just tell us what experiment or observation we can perform to test your predictions.

Let’s assume for a moment that the IDers are right and that science is unfairly biased against supernaturalist explanations. Let’s therefore hypothetically throw methodological materialism right out the window. Gone. Bye-bye. Everything’s fair game now. Ghosts, spirits, demons, devils, cosmic enlightenment, elves, pixies, magic star goats, whatever god-thing you like. Feel free to include and invoke ALL of them. As many as you need. All the IDers have to do now is simply show us all how to apply the scientific method to whatever non-naturalistic science they choose to invoke in order to subject the hypothesis “genetic similarities between chimps and humans are the product of a common design”, or indeed ANY other non-material or super-natural ID hypothesis, to the scientific method.

And that is where ID “theory” falls flat on its face. It is NOT any presupposition of “philosophical naturalism” on the part of science that stops ID dead in its tracks —- it is the simple inability of ID “theory” to make any testible predictions. Even if we let them invoke all the non-naturalistic designers they want, intelligent design “theory” STILL can’t follow the scientific method.

Deep down inside, what the IDers are really moaning and complaining about is NOT that science unfairly rejects their supernaturalistic explanations, but that science demands ID’s proposed “supernaturalistic explanations” be tested according to the scientific method, just like every OTHER hypothesis has to be. Not only can ID not test any of its “explanations”, but it wants to modify science so it doesn’t HAVE to. In effect, the IDers want their supernaturalistic “hypothesis” to have a privileged position —- they want their hypothesis to be accepted by science WITHOUT being tested; they want to follow steps one and two of the scientific method, but prefer that we just skip steps 3,4 and 5, and just simply take their religious word for it, on the authority of their own say-so, that their “science” is correct. And that is what their entire argument over “materialism” (or “naturalism” or “atheism” or “sciencism” or “darwinism” or whatever the heck else they want to call it) boils down to.

There is no legitimate reason for the ID hypothesis to be privileged and have the special right to be exempted from testing, that other hypotheses do not. I see no reason why their hypotheses, whatever they are, should not be subjected to the very same testing process that everyone ELSE’s hypotheses, whatever they are, have to go through. If they cannot put their “hypothesis” through the same scientific method that everyone ELSE has to, then they have no claim to be “science”. Period.

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2006,17:40   

Quote
"This might not be a good day to take unnecessary risks. Maintaining a positive attitude will improve your spirits."

Yep, good predictive power there.


Fortune cookie philosophy is famously full of foresight for fools.

HG is almost as intractable as AFDave, eh?

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Philip Bruce Heywood

Unregistered



(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 11 2006,20:34   

Well, don't just sit there and be corrected; get up and do some science.  The other day, on this site, I was advized that to eliminate  baldness from my genetic makeup, all I have to do is marry people wihout the baldness gene for a few generations, and hey, presto!  This apparently is how we got rid of the chimp-like features whilst not getting rid of our own, lesser-loved, human features!  Not that baldness is lesser-loved; I was employing an illustration.  I'm not a biologist, but I hope I have some grasp of everyday knowledge.  My correspondent in that case was trying to honestly answer a question, which puts him well in advance of every second obfuscating verbal contortionist passing himself off as a knowledgeable advisor hereabouts.  This is what CERT and Science are up against.  Supernatural input is O.K.,yes, but only if NATURE is being supernatural and we don't have to quantify its actions!  Then when someone comes along and points out, Hey, we can satisfy all reasonable parties and leave the supernatural out of the "science", another genius of comprehension comes along three posts later and says I am insisting on putting in supernatural explanations!  I have had asserted in no uequivocal manner that the species concept of reproductive self-containment doesn't exist, and the same commentator six threads later by default acknowledges reproductive integrity in nature!  Some appear frightened of the recent advances in science, and go so far as to cast aspersions on the latest technologies!  If one was to document every contradiction, every uncorrected statement, and every straightforward twisting or denial of published fact, currently being peddled by people with a politico-religious agenda or perhaps just a poor education, relating to Origins Science - why, could the world contain the books that would be written?
You can do better than this,  Mr. Suttkus & co.  People who are trying to set up genuine educational bodies - let's hope CERT makes the grade - aren't benefited by inherently self-contradictory obfuscation.
Let's see you up and about.

Darth Robo

Unregistered



(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 12 2006,05:09   

PBH:  

"I’m not a biologist,"

At last, something we agree on.

Darth Robo

Unregistered



(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 12 2006,05:09   

Oops, now it looks like I'M talking to myself.  I also sit corrected.

guthrie

Unregistered



(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 12 2006,05:10   

Mathematical based physical chemistry?  You do know that we have trouble right now even computing the folding of proteins- it will take huge advances in computing power to make what is proposed at all realistic.

guthrie



Posts: 696
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 12 2006,11:31   

Woohoo!
I got bathroom walled!  First time ever.  
My post was in reply to PBH, who seems to think we can calculate all the chemical reactions going on in biological situations.

  
Darth Robo



Posts: 148
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2006,02:43   

And Heywood's scientific response to guthrie is telling us all about his bizzare bath fetish fantasies.   ???

Coming up in 3, 2, 1...   :(

--------------
"Commentary: How would you like to be the wholly-owned servant to an organic meatbag? It's demeaning! If, uh, you weren't one yourself, I mean..."

  
'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank

Unregistered



(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 14 2006,14:27   

Hey Heywood, you're, uh, blithering again.

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