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Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2006,16:54   

ScaryFacts, I (or more probably the girls) will be sure to make it 'round your place.  They keep me hoppin', though.  I'm interested in your experiences.

 
Quote (Kristine @ Dec. 07 2006,14:34)
     
Quote
Bad hair day?


No, not at all. Why?  :p

I think maybe some church lady might be giving my comment the hate stare.

"Let her comment, Denyse, let her comment, we'll just ignore her. Shhhh. Then when she leaves the table to go to the ladies' room, everyone leave! And stick her with the bill (not that Bill). Wah-ha-ha-ha!"

I'll just put it on my NASA charge. Billions of $$ worth of baby back ribs. ~smack!~

Kristine, I don't know what it was about that, but it absolutely tickled my funny bone.  Thank you for that.

   
Quote (keiths @ Dec. 07 2006,15:41)
Ah, the fundies stole his adolescence, so now he's reliving it through JanieBelle and Kate.


Hmmm... You may be on to something.  I got sucked in about the middle of 10th grade or so, just when the pimples started easing up enough to make girls an option.

   
Quote (keiths @ Dec. 07 2006,15:41)
I visited BJU in the 80's.  Highlights of the trip:  
1) The "dating lounge", where prim couples held hands on sofas under the watchful eyes of chaperones, and
2) The chain-link fence surrounding the campus, topped with strands of barbed wire.  You'd have expected the barbed wire to be canted outward to repel intruders, but no, it was canted inward, as if BJU were a prison (which I suppose it was, for people like Lou).


Coincidentally enough, that's when I was there.  Fall '85.

Ahh.. the memories.  Beautiful fountain out front, I think they called it the "Bridge of Nations" as I recall.

The dating lounge - you weren't technically allowed to hold a girl's hand ANYWHERE on campus, but with the right monitors on duty there, you might get lucky and get away with it.  We weren't allowed to mingle with girls after dinner, except in specified places (the dating lounge may have been one of them - forgive me, it's been a while).

Dinner was a formal affair, and you weren't allowed to miss that.  Afterwards, you were allowed to walk a girl back to her dorm (just to the intersection in the sidewalk out front), but you couldn't hold her hand, kiss her, or stop moving.  Everyone learned to walk very, very, very slowly, to extend the amount of time you could spend with your sweetie.  That was nicknamed "The Snail Trail", and was supervised all along the way.

Freshmen weren't allowed to leave campus, except for church or for outreach extensions supervised by upper-classmen.  An off-campus date was unthinkable.

The story with the fence was that it was to keep out the criminal element, but I don't think that fooled very many of us.  We knew what it was for.

Well, keeping us in and keeping out the Furman students who would dress up like BoJos (that's what we were called) and try to sneak on campus to raid our weemens.  (You always knew a BoJo by his haircut, slacks (usually navy or tan, but never jeans outside the dorm), white dress shirt, and red or yellow tie.)  Bastards.  They probably thought that was funny.

:D

But for all that, at least two girls I knew (and their paramours) got booted in the semester I was there because they were caught in the bushes around the side of the big Vespers hall.  Another girl I knew of but didn't really know personally wound up pregnant and left in shame.  She never did divulge the name of her beau, as far as I know.  Immaculate conception, maybe.

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

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Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2006,17:22   

Don't enable me Lou! Oops, too late.

Louis—BTW—

Was that “crank” call last night good for you? Because it was confusing for me. You sounded like a woman—well, a woman imitating a man, anyway. And you’re so bitter about the Smithsonian. Did you have a film showing there that got yanked?

And when I asked for your address, you got all defensive: “I have a dress! I have a couple of dresses! Okay, they’re in my closet at my place in Canada, but still!” So you live in Canada?

Um. That was you, Louis, right?

Uh-oh.  :D

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
lkeithlu



Posts: 321
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2006,17:27   

"The dating lounge - you weren't technically allowed to hold a girl's hand ANYWHERE on campus, but with the right monitors on duty there, you might get lucky and get away with it.  We weren't allowed to mingle with girls after dinner, except in specified places (the dating lounge may have been one of them - forgive me, it's been a while).

Dinner was a formal affair, and you weren't allowed to miss that.  Afterwards, you were allowed to walk a girl back to her dorm (just to the intersection in the sidewalk out front), but you couldn't hold her hand, kiss her, or stop moving.  Everyone learned to walk very, very, very slowly, to extend the amount of time you could spend with your sweetie.  That was nicknamed "The Snail Trail", and was supervised all along the way.

Freshmen weren't allowed to leave campus, except for church or for outreach extensions supervised by upper-classmen.  An off-campus date was unthinkable.

The story with the fence was that it was to keep out the criminal element, but I don't think that fooled very many of us.  We knew what it was for."


This was a college????
I cannot imagine treating minors in this manner, much less
adults.

  
ScaryFacts



Posts: 337
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2006,17:36   

Thanks for the encouragement guys.

Before I share some of the supposed “supernatural” experiences I’ve had, I thought it might be good to think through how experiences can be evaluated.

When I relate an experience, there are several possiblities:

1.  It is truly a supernatural experience.
2.  It is coincidence/natural process which I misinterpreted
3.  I’m lying
4.  I’m deceived (either by my own psychosis, my unintentional superimposing after the fact some details that weren’t really present or by other’s intentional plan)

I think that pretty much covers the possibilities, but if there are others feel free to let me know.

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2006,18:10   

Quote (lkeithlu @ Dec. 07 2006,17:27)
This was a college????
I cannot imagine treating minors in this manner, much less
adults.

Not only that, but I volunteered to go there.  What the #### was I thinking?

Now, ya wanna know something REALLY F'd up?

The members of my church were sadly disappointed that I would go to such a liberal college as BJ.

That's not a typo.

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

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lkeithlu



Posts: 321
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2006,18:15   

Unbelievable

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2006,18:22   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Dec. 07 2006,18:10)
The members of my church were sadly disappointed that I would go to such a liberal college as BJ.

I'm scared to even ask, but what colleges did they view as 'not liberal'?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2006,18:25   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Dec. 07 2006,18:22)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Dec. 07 2006,18:10)
The members of my church were sadly disappointed that I would go to such a liberal college as BJ.

I'm scared to even ask, but what colleges did they view as 'not liberal'?


    ??


--------------
Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2006,18:25   

um... I seemed to have hijacked the thread.

Please return to your normal heckling of UD at this time.

Further discussion should probably be taken up elsewhere, should anyone remain interested.

Probably off-topic for this forum, so we can take it to Crowded Head, Cozy Bed if anyone wants.

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

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phonon



Posts: 396
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2006,19:33   

Behind the times as always. (What's with the server anyway? Sometimes I just can't connect to this site.)

Did anyone notice the way the Cambridge-Templeton Consortium page talks about their grants?

Quote
The John Templeton Foundation has made up to $3 million available for research grants to stimulate and sponsor new research insights directly pertinent to the 'great debate' over purpose in the context of the emergence of increasing biological complexity,

Yup, "scare" quotes around "great debate."

and then again
Quote
Grant proposals from all sides of this 'debate' are welcomed.

Yes, this "debate" is really "hot" right now. All the top "scientists" are "clamoring" for these "research" grants.

I just hope all this "money" produces some interesting and useful "results" that I can "read" in a "journal."

--------------
With most men, unbelief in one thing springs from blind belief in another. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

To do just the opposite is also a form of imitation. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

  
k.e



Posts: 1948
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2006,19:54   

Quote
Therefore, for the good of his soul, I would ask Dembski, if I could, what sacrifice he would be willing to make in the name of something else he spoke of, love of one’s neighbor. Specifically, I would like him to state yea or nay whether he subscribes to some of the loopier beliefs espoused by his colleagues (denial of the HIV-AIDS link, global warming denial, etc.) and if he would be willing to sacrifice these, at least, in the face of their possible detrimental effect upon other peoples’ lives—and speak out against them.


What ? and give up the rapture of his ridiculous rabble of radical right wing reactionaries.

That sort of idolatry does not come cheap.

The Dorian Gray of a southern baptist school of tombstone writing has done a deal to get where he is.
For everlasting adulation by his followers he had to perform a miracle.

And what a miracle!

By the simple laying on of hands on ignorant idiots he healed them by making them instantly stupid, they went forth and knew they were experts in science.

Now the whole world is better place, they still don't know they are idiots ...........and so does everyone else.

--------------
The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2006,20:03   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Dec. 07 2006,18:22)
 
Quote (Lou FCD @ Dec. 07 2006,18:10)
The members of my church were sadly disappointed that I would go to such a liberal college as BJ.

I'm scared to even ask, but what colleges did they view as 'not liberal'?

One last comment, just to answer Arden's question...

Fairhaven was the highest, bestest, most goodest college.

That link is to the church, the college is on the same site.

Pretty campus, though, as I recall.

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
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phonon



Posts: 396
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2006,20:05   

I'd like to point out some wrong statements in the article linked to by DaveScot here.

The article.


 
Quote
All DNA tends to acquire random mutations, but if these occur in a region that has an important function, individuals will not survive.

Is this right? It doesn't sound right to me. Every mutation of any gene will kill the organism? Come on.

 
Quote
The thinking has been that these conserved, non-coding sequences must, like genes, be there for a reason.

Just because they are conserved wouldn't necessarily mean that they perform some vital function. They could be conserved for no effing reason at all.

 
Quote
"There has been a circular argument that if it's conserved it has activity."

I don't know how circular that is, really, but it is an argument. I don't see why anyone would really hang onto this argument very dearly. It's a valid hypothesis, but why should it shock anyone if it's found to be wrong? So what?

Doesn't DNA have repair mechanism? Do these mechanisms discrimiate between coding and non-coding regions? I wouldn't think so. Maybe someone can educate me.

DaveScot is trying to argue that they must be some kind of "sleeper genes," ready to spring into action and start coding for proteins at some predetermined time in the future.

 
Quote
If it’s unused long enough it gets peppered with mutations into random oblivion.

Apparently, it doesn't.

 
Quote
If mice and men had a common ancestor many millions of years ago and they still have highly conserved DNA in common, the story follows that all the conserved DNA must have an important survival value.
Is this really the story? If so, why? Just because it's conserved it must have a vital function? Why? Just because it doesn't matter if it's there or not? That's a reasonable hypothesis (among others), but if it's wrong, so what?


 
Quote
A good experiment to figure out what unknown purpose the non-coding conserved pieces are doing would be to cut them out of the mouse genome and see what kind of damage it does to the mouse.

You're right Dave, that IS a good experiment. Glad you thought of it.

(Another one would be to breed these knockout mice for a few generations to see what happens to the offspring. Surely some ID scientist somewhere is doing this as we speak.)

So to Dave, if NDE is right then for non-coding DNA:
 
Quote
If it’s unused it won’t do any harm if it mutates into oblivion.


So let's do an experiment where we mutate the DNA away into oblivion. Lookie thar, it did no apparent harm. Evolution must be true.

I also love how he takes a relatively minor hypothesis and turns it into a central tenet of evolution.
 
Quote
A central tenet of NDE is that unexpressed (unused) genomic information is subject to relatively rapid corruption from chance mutations.


Here's where Dave gets really funny.
 
Quote
This is a good avenue for positive ID research. If the function of any of those regions were preserved because they could be of important use in the future… well that would pretty much blow a hole in the good ship NDE the size of the one that sunk the Titanic.

Well, Dave? Are you going to design the experiments that would determine what the future function of those sleeper genes are? Why don't you post your ideas on these experiments on UD. Or better yet, you could submit a proposal to the Templeton Foundation and get a leg up in this "debate."

--------------
With most men, unbelief in one thing springs from blind belief in another. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

To do just the opposite is also a form of imitation. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

  
phonon



Posts: 396
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2006,20:11   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Dec. 07 2006,20:03)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Dec. 07 2006,18:22)
 
Quote (Lou FCD @ Dec. 07 2006,18:10)
The members of my church were sadly disappointed that I would go to such a liberal college as BJ.

I'm scared to even ask, but what colleges did they view as 'not liberal'?

One last comment, just to answer Arden's question...

Fairhaven was the highest, bestest, most goodest college.

That link is to the church, the college is on the same site.

Pretty campus, though, as I recall.

Interesting church.

I like the segregated pictures. One is of the real Sunday School with nothing but white children. Then there is the "bus ministry" with nothing but black children. Yup, the bestest.

--------------
With most men, unbelief in one thing springs from blind belief in another. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

To do just the opposite is also a form of imitation. - Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4820
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2006,20:43   

About half an hour ago, I deleted all the files on the TalkOrigins Archive.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
ScaryFacts



Posts: 337
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2006,20:46   

Quote
TRoutMac: … I'm a newcomer to UD and I have relatively little knowledge of the specifics of genetics and so forth, but I am a fervent supporter of ID


Standard?

   
keiths



Posts: 2041
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2006,21:08   

Quote (ScaryFacts @ Dec. 07 2006,17:36)
When I relate an experience, there are several possiblities:

1.  It is truly a supernatural experience.
2.  It is coincidence/natural process which I misinterpreted
3.  I’m lying
4.  I’m deceived (either by my own psychosis, my unintentional superimposing after the fact some details that weren’t really present or by other’s intentional plan)


Scary,

I know your reference to "psychosis" was for comedic effect, but it's still worth stressing that perfectly normal, mentally healthy people are nevertheless subject to self-deception.  We all know about sensory illusions, and cognitive illusions abound as well -- the Monty Hall paradox being a notorious example.

The beautiful thing about the scientific style of thinking is that it gives us a way of approaching the truth despite these inherent weaknesses.

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number.  -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
ScaryFacts



Posts: 337
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2006,21:20   

Quote (keiths @ Dec. 07 2006,21:08)
I know your reference to "psychosis" was for comedic effect, but it's still worth stressing that perfectly normal, mentally healthy people are nevertheless subject to self-deception.

Actually it WASN'T for comedic effect, though I appreciate the assumption of mental health.  The reason I included it was simply I acknowlege that as one possibility.  As I share some of the experiences I have had, it is possible some will believe I must be crazy.

Maybe I am, though the history of my experiences doesn't fit the DSM-IV prognosis for any kind of psychosis.  I am just trying to be intellectually honest with myself.

The purpose of me asking others to evaluate my thinking is simply to keep self deception as far away as possible.  I truly believe in living honestly.

   
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2006,21:20   

Quote
About half an hour ago, I deleted all the files on the TalkOrigins Archive.


Oh darn it, Wes. That's so frustrating. I'm sorry that you're still having problems although you say that the content will be restored, so that's good news.

That archive is one of the best resources I've ever come across.

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Henry J



Posts: 4603
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2006,22:00   

Quote
You be the judge. I must say, I'm tired of the MF snakes on this MF plane(t)...


Better watch out for Perseus...

Henry

  
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2006,22:07   

Quote
What ? and give up the rapture of his ridiculous rabble of radical right wing reactionaries.

That sort of idolatry does not come cheap.

The Dorian Gray of a southern baptist school of tombstone writing has done a deal to get where he is.
For everlasting adulation by his followers he had to perform a miracle.

And what a miracle!


Yes, that's right, k.e. Color me stupid, but that's what I ask. I'm not asking him to quit his position, but at least condemn the "HIV doesn't cause AIDS" crap. Condemn Jonathan Wells for saying it. Post it at Uncommon Descent and turn the money-changers out of his temple. Draw a line somewhere.

Here's why. To show me how wrong I am, about everything. To save five nurses and a doctor detained in Libya and facing the death penalty for "deliberately infecting" Libyan children with AIDS. Because HIV transmitted by dirty needles doesn't cause AIDS, you know.

Because Dembski knows all about sacrifice, you know, and how the so-called moral pain of a transcendant god is worse than the physical pain of being an innocent nurse or doctor tortured in a Libyan cell, whereas I, a materialist, need moral instruction from him, because I don't have any values or beliefs, being an atheist. Yeah.

Yep. A miracle! #### right I ask this of Dembski. He wants to teach me something about love thy neighbor? Go ahead, Bill--teach. Because idolatry does not come cheap--that's for sure.

(He should thank his God that I'm not in his philosophy class.)

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
bfish



Posts: 267
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2006,23:48   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Dec. 07 2006,20:43)
About half an hour ago, I deleted all the files on the TalkOrigins Archive.

Sheesh, when I first read that I thought it was a "Harold and Maude" moment:

"I took the pills an hour ago."
Whaaaattt??? [Rushes Wes to the ER]

Looking at TalkOrigins, I see that Wes has not lost his mind, but is instead responding to the hack attempts. Sucks to have to do that. Have to say, though, I quite like the TO description of the evil perpetrator as "a cracker." I prefer to read that with it's American slang meaning, as Dave Chappelle might use it. Somehow that gives me the giggles.

  
keiths



Posts: 2041
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2006,01:06   

ScaryFacts,

I cross-posted our last couple of comments to your blog so that we can continue the conversation there.

I look forward to hearing about your experiences.

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number.  -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
keiths



Posts: 2041
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2006,01:15   

Quote
In 40 years of debating with atheists, I’ve never met one who was honest and open, who did not smarten up and abandon atheism.

Comment by Borne — December 8, 2006 @ 12:28 am

Anyone care to guess what qualifies one as an "honest and open" atheist in Borne's eyes?

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number.  -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4820
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2006,01:35   

I was heavily influenced by Raymond and Steele's "The Jargon File", where hackers are the good guys, and people who are only seeking to gain illicit entry to and control of other people's computers are crackers.

Of course, I'm also a native Floridian from Central Florida, so there is a sense in which "cracker" would describe me, too.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
stevestory



Posts: 10212
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2006,01:48   

Ever been to Lake City, Florida, the redneck hole I'm from?

(People ask, what do you mean, north central Florida is redneck? I tell them, have you ever been somewhere that even the black guys fly confederate flags from their pickup trucks? 'Cause that's Lake City.)

(I was born in, as Neal Stephenson put it, 'the illustrious trailer parks of North Florida';)

   
keiths



Posts: 2041
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2006,03:59   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Dec. 08 2006,01:35)
Of course, I'm also a native Floridian from Central Florida, so there is a sense in which "cracker" would describe me, too.

 
Quote (stevestory @ Dec. 08 2006,01:48)
I was born in, as Neal Stephenson put it, 'the illustrious trailer parks of North Florida'

Have you guys seen Errol Morris's classic documentary Vernon, Florida?

http://www.errolmorris.com/film/vernon_clip.html
http://www.errolmorris.com/film/vernon.html

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number.  -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
keiths



Posts: 2041
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2006,04:13   

Quote (Kristine @ Dec. 07 2006,22:07)
I'm not asking [Dembski] to quit his position, but at least condemn the "HIV doesn't cause AIDS" crap. Condemn Jonathan Wells for saying it. Post it at Uncommon Descent and turn the money-changers out of his temple. Draw a line somewhere.

What?  And violate the spirit of the Big Tent?  You should know better, Kristine -- ID does not take a position on the cause of AIDS.  That issue can be addressed when the culture war has been won and Of Pandas and People is back in the classroom where it belongs.

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number.  -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2006,07:02   

Yesterday DaveScot took up the research tools of Intelligent Design (silk smoking jacket, pipe, leather armchair, internet connection) and found empirical evidence for front loading in a 2004 paper by Nobrega et al.:  
       
Quote
Lack of any known means of conserving non-critical genetic information is the major objection lobbed at the front loading hypothesis. Evidently there is a means after all.

DS finds evidence of a mechanism for the preservation of genetic information in the conservation of non-coding genetic information across mouse and human DNA. The researchers operationally defined a conserved area as demonstrating 70% identity across at least 100 base pairs.  Using that definition, 1,243 conserved elements were found within the excised areas of DNA - a surprisingly high number. For DS, this is good news for the front loading hypothesis.

What DS doesn't mention is that, within the same paper, the same criterion (at least 100 bp and 70% identity) was used to contrast genetic information across the DNA of human beings and fish, within these same areas of genome. NO conserved elements were detected.

It follows that, whatever mechanism accounts for the high degree of conservation of non-coding DNA across the relatively closely related genomes of mice and men, it was insufficient to conserve any elements (as defined in the study) across fish and humans.  

Front loading would require conservation of information across vastly greater stretches of evolutionary time than has passed since the common ancestor of modern fish and human beings plied the seas.  I don't see that the the most recent findings from DS Laboratories offer front loading much comfort.

Igor! Brandy Snifter! Activate the Remote!

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2006,07:14   

If anyone with expertise in dating techniques is getting bored with AFDave, over at OE Troutmac has stated:
Quote

There is NO WAY to prove how old or young the Earth is.

Now, let me attempt to back that up. Sure, I know about all the dating methods… all of the "clocks". But I also know this: All of those methods give different ages, and all of those methods are based upon unprovable assumptions. And I also know that some "clocks" indicate a young Earth.

Troutmac is a graphic designer, not an engineer.  So, I would wager that he would approach the argument from an entirely different perspective than Dave.  It might be refreshing to see the issue from that perspective.

Plus, they manage to close down the only thread that had any activity because someone named Hawks wouldn't play their game.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
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