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  Topic: A Separate Thread for Gary Gaulin, As big as the poop that does not look< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
N.Wells



Posts: 1736
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2017,11:37   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Mar. 25 2017,10:09)
A new buzz-phrase: "inclusive fitness"?

..........

Giving things "fitness" names has a way of even more complicating things.

"Inclusive fitness" was defined* in 1964 by W.D. Hamilton in the middle of the kin selection / altruism debate.  This is neither new nor a buzzword, but a very important and clarifying concept with major implications**.

*"Define": - state the word, and explain exactly what you mean by it.  I realize that this is a novel concept for you, Gary, but it really is at the heart of doing good science.  You might try it sometime.

**All of which are lost on you, Gary.

I never cease to be amazed at how little you care about making yourself look like an uninformed idiot almost every time you spout off about something.  Doesn't it ever occur to you that it might be worth checking up on your facts before talking about things?

  
ChemiCat



Posts: 394
Joined: Nov. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2017,13:59   

From the Sandwalk comments;

 
Quote
JassWednesday, March 22, 2017 4:51:00 PM
"It's not a lie if you believe it" -someone once said...

I often say that ( to some) "...it's not a lie if you want to believe it..." However, it is an unacceptable lie if you want to deceive others because you chose to believe a lie and manipulate others to believe it...

Since there is no system to make public deceivers accountable to society, anybody can publish any shit he wants under the protective umbrella of "science" and he gets away with that whether it is true or false...with one exception: ID. If they publish something even with experimental evidence that can't be denied, it's always wrong, a lie or deceiving...

This is what's wrong and I'll fight it to death....


Does Jass = Gaulin? It sounds like it to me.

For "Jass's" information, nobody from the ID side has ever done an experiment, ever.

  
N.Wells



Posts: 1736
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2017,15:36   

Quote (ChemiCat @ Mar. 25 2017,13:59)
From the Sandwalk comments;

 
Quote
JassWednesday, March 22, 2017 4:51:00 PM
"It's not a lie if you believe it" -someone once said...

I often say that ( to some) "...it's not a lie if you want to believe it..." However, it is an unacceptable lie if you want to deceive others because you chose to believe a lie and manipulate others to believe it...

Since there is no system to make public deceivers accountable to society, anybody can publish any shit he wants under the protective umbrella of "science" and he gets away with that whether it is true or false...with one exception: ID. If they publish something even with experimental evidence that can't be denied, it's always wrong, a lie or deceiving...

This is what's wrong and I'll fight it to death....


Does Jass = Gaulin? It sounds like it to me.

For "Jass's" information, nobody from the ID side has ever done an experiment, ever.

Don't think so - Gary comments under his own name there and Jass never pushes Gary's nonsense.  Jass' English is better too.

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5085
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2017,17:38   

I was studying laminar flow nozzles then ran across this gem of an experiment worth mentioning:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=p08_KlTKP50

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The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5085
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2017,18:30   

And I wanted to mention this video that recently came in via email from the local STEM network. It starts off with an excellent explanation of theorems, formulas to describe basic principals and how that relates to the modeling process:

The Modeling Method: A Synopsis
modelinginstruction.org/sample-page/synopsis-of-modeling-instruction/

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The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5085
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2017,18:46   

Quote (N.Wells @ Mar. 25 2017,11:37)
Quote (GaryGaulin @ Mar. 25 2017,10:09)
A new buzz-phrase: "inclusive fitness"?

..........

Giving things "fitness" names has a way of even more complicating things.

"Inclusive fitness" was defined* in 1964 by W.D. Hamilton in the middle of the kin selection / altruism debate.  This is neither new nor a buzzword, but a very important and clarifying concept with major implications**.

*"Define": - state the word, and explain exactly what you mean by it.  I realize that this is a novel concept for you, Gary, but it really is at the heart of doing good science.  You might try it sometime.

**All of which are lost on you, Gary.

I never cease to be amazed at how little you care about making yourself look like an uninformed idiot almost every time you spout off about something.  Doesn't it ever occur to you that it might be worth checking up on your facts before talking about things?

It only goes to show the problem I'm up against.

And does that name by chance include a gay population, without which all of humanity is somehow less fit?

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
N.Wells



Posts: 1736
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2017,22:27   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Mar. 25 2017,18:30)
And I wanted to mention this video that recently came in via email from the local STEM network. It starts off with an excellent explanation of theorems, formulas to describe basic principals and how that relates to the modeling process:

The Modeling Method: A Synopsis
modelinginstruction.org/sample-page/synopsis-of-modeling-instruction/

"Basic principals" = caustic school administrators?  Principles!

The video doesn't fully describe modeling (it's more about teaching through student activities), but it does so enough to show that they would not approve of what you do.  Yes, they use the word modelling (which seems to be as far as you went in paying attention), but note their description of the modelling CYCLE, including testing (i.e. ground-truthing).

Yes, inclusive fitness includes such things as homosexuals furthering their genetic success by helping to raise their own nephews and nieces, or less directly by just being part of a broader group that reproduces especially successfully because everyone contributes to raising everyone else's kids.  (This could usefully be called the "successful village" phenomenon.  Aso, this is not included in "inclusive fitness" by chance but by intention and by definition.)  

However, it is uncommon at best to talk about inclusive fitness in terms of the success of the whole species, rather than groups within it, so your statement "without which all of humanity is somewhat less fit" falls outside most or all of the topic of "inclusive fitness".

The problem you are up against is you.

Laminar flow fountains are very cool indeed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v....nV5DBSo (in French, but great)
& for the fountains at the Burj Al Arab hotel in Abu Dhabi:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v....gLjV6Ss
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v....l49iAJ8

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5085
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2017,16:24   

Darn principal/principle typo! I better reset my autopilot, by looking up that one next time I use the word again.

Giving things you cannot explain "fitness" names is not the same as explaining how something works.

I earlier watched (and liked) the video from France and almost all other videos for making one, though it's not exactly what I'm working on. You would likely need a magnifying glass to carefully observe one of mine in operation. It's for an industrial machine I'm developing.

Honorable mention:

Laminar versus turbulent flow through a kitchen faucet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v....60iUq2I

Physics of Life - The Reynolds Number and Flow Around Objects
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v....hY&t=4s

Low Reynolds Number Flow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v....&t=222s

Laminar Flow Fountain
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v....kX0WzCo

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The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
N.Wells



Posts: 1736
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2017,16:45   

Good luck with your laminar flow stuff.  It's likely to be way more productive than your ID nonsense, and certainly more interesting.  

Quote
Giving things you cannot explain "fitness" names is not the same as explaining how something works.
 
Now there you go again, displaying your stupidity for all to see.  Naming is certainly not tantamount to explaining, but that's not what has happened.  Hamilton provided a definition, with math and expository writing explaining how it worked, and he also provided natural examples.  It has since been backed up with many more field studies, many lab experiments, and more mathematics - I think there's a big section on it in Martin Nowak's book on mathematics of evolution ["Evolutionary Dynamics"] that I recommended to you a while ago.  It is a great example of an initial hypothesis that has become a well established theory.  It is well explained, well understood (other than by you) and is not an example of either just slapping a name on something or something that is not well understood.  

Ignorantly slapping names on something and falsely claiming to have provided an explanation is what you do ("intelligence", "design", "intelligent design", etc.)

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5085
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2017,16:56   

Quote (N.Wells @ Mar. 26 2017,16:45)
Hamilton provided a definition, with math and expository writing explaining how it worked, and he also provided natural examples.

Then you should be easily be able to explain the underlying basic principles that cause some to be gay while others are not.

This is supposed to be one of the biggest remaining mysteries in all of science.  Show me what you (actually) got.

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The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
N.Wells



Posts: 1736
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2017,18:01   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Mar. 26 2017,16:56)
 
Quote (N.Wells @ Mar. 26 2017,16:45)
Hamilton provided a definition, with math and expository writing explaining how it worked, and he also provided natural examples.

Then you should be easily be able to explain the underlying basic principles that cause some to be gay while others are not.

This is supposed to be one of the biggest remaining mysteries in all of science.  Show me what you (actually) got.

Quit moving the goal posts just because you've shown yourself to be uniformed with respect to your blatherings.

What I said was that inclusive fitness explains how altruistic behaviors and behaviors or traits that do not directly result in more offspring for the individual involved (e.g. homosexuality) can be positively selected during the course of evolution. That's all I claimed, and that is well understood.  What amount of homosexuality is explained by a genetic component is unknown, as are the exact causes of homosexuality.

Recall, this is in response to YOUR question, "And does that name by chance include a gay population...?".  The answer remains, yes it does.

Inclusive fitness explains kin selection, which includes such things as individuals sacrificing themselves (or putting themselves at risk) to warn siblings and cousins: J.B.S. Haldane, "I would gladly lay down my life for two brothers or eight cousins."  However, it also describes the benefits to a community of a more general reciprocal altruism involving unrelated individuals (hence "inclusive"), and how many selfish cheaters can be tolerated before such a system becomes unstable.  If your community benefits from having elders around (more people to watch over the young, more long-term experience, more accumulated wisdom, and more experience with rare hazards), all of which increases the chances of survival for your young, it is worth your while evolutionarily to look after unrelated elders, quite apart from the personal benefits of establishing a culture of looking after elderly people in preparation for when you in turn become elderly.

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5085
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2017,21:12   

Quote (N.Wells @ Mar. 26 2017,18:01)
What I said was that inclusive fitness explains how altruistic behaviors and behaviors or traits that do not directly result in more offspring for the individual involved (e.g. homosexuality) can be positively selected during the course of evolution. That's all I claimed, and that is well understood.  [b]What amount of homosexuality is explained by a genetic component is unknown, as are the exact causes of homosexuality.[b]

Recall, this is in response to YOUR question, "And does that name by chance include a gay population...?".  The answer remains, yes it does.

Inclusive fitness explains kin selection, which includes such things as individuals sacrificing themselves (or putting themselves at risk) to warn siblings and cousins: J.B.S. Haldane, "I would gladly lay down my life for two brothers or eight cousins."  However, it also describes the benefits to a community of a more general reciprocal altruism involving unrelated individuals (hence "inclusive"), and how many selfish cheaters can be tolerated before such a system becomes unstable.  If your community benefits from having elders around (more people to watch over the young, more long-term experience, more accumulated wisdom, and more experience with rare hazards), all of which increases the chances of survival for your young, it is worth your while evolutionarily to look after unrelated elders, quite apart from the personal benefits of establishing a culture of looking after elderly people in preparation for when you in turn become elderly.

Instead of your trying to pretend that you knew how how all that works you should have just been honest, which in this case only needed the one sentence. All the rest around it was well written, but amounts to trying to look smart after basically admitting you have no working model for determining the likely cause of things like "altruism".

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5085
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2017,21:14   

Edit (for bolding code) below:

 
Quote (N.Wells @ Mar. 26 2017,18:01)
What I said was that inclusive fitness explains how altruistic behaviors and behaviors or traits that do not directly result in more offspring for the individual involved (e.g. homosexuality) can be positively selected during the course of evolution. That's all I claimed, and that is well understood.  What amount of homosexuality is explained by a genetic component is unknown, as are the exact causes of homosexuality.

Recall, this is in response to YOUR question, "And does that name by chance include a gay population...?".  The answer remains, yes it does.

Inclusive fitness explains kin selection, which includes such things as individuals sacrificing themselves (or putting themselves at risk) to warn siblings and cousins: J.B.S. Haldane, "I would gladly lay down my life for two brothers or eight cousins."  However, it also describes the benefits to a community of a more general reciprocal altruism involving unrelated individuals (hence "inclusive"), and how many selfish cheaters can be tolerated before such a system becomes unstable.  If your community benefits from having elders around (more people to watch over the young, more long-term experience, more accumulated wisdom, and more experience with rare hazards), all of which increases the chances of survival for your young, it is worth your while evolutionarily to look after unrelated elders, quite apart from the personal benefits of establishing a culture of looking after elderly people in preparation for when you in turn become elderly.

Instead of your trying to pretend that you knew how how all that works you should have just been honest, which in this case only needed the one sentence. All the rest around it was well written, but amounts to trying to look smart after basically admitting you have no working model for determining the likely cause of things like "altruism".

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
N.Wells



Posts: 1736
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2017,23:05   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Mar. 27 2017,21:14)
Edit (for bolding code) below:

   
Quote (N.Wells @ Mar. 26 2017,18:01)
What I said was that inclusive fitness explains how altruistic behaviors and behaviors or traits that do not directly result in more offspring for the individual involved (e.g. homosexuality) can be positively selected during the course of evolution. That's all I claimed, and that is well understood.  What amount of homosexuality is explained by a genetic component is unknown, as are the exact causes of homosexuality.

Recall, this is in response to YOUR question, "And does that name by chance include a gay population...?".  The answer remains, yes it does.

Inclusive fitness explains kin selection, which includes such things as individuals sacrificing themselves (or putting themselves at risk) to warn siblings and cousins: J.B.S. Haldane, "I would gladly lay down my life for two brothers or eight cousins."  However, it also describes the benefits to a community of a more general reciprocal altruism involving unrelated individuals (hence "inclusive"), and how many selfish cheaters can be tolerated before such a system becomes unstable.  If your community benefits from having elders around (more people to watch over the young, more long-term experience, more accumulated wisdom, and more experience with rare hazards), all of which increases the chances of survival for your young, it is worth your while evolutionarily to look after unrelated elders, quite apart from the personal benefits of establishing a culture of looking after elderly people in preparation for when you in turn become elderly.

Instead of your trying to pretend that you knew how how all that works you should have just been honest, which in this case only needed the one sentence. All the rest around it was well written, but amounts to trying to look smart after basically admitting you have no working model for determining the likely cause of things like "altruism".

You really have comprehension problems, don't you?

You claimed that inclusive fitness was a new buzz word that merely adds complications.  

You are wrong on both assertions - the term was coined 50 years ago, and is well understood and offers considerable clarification.

You then asked (rather poorly) "And does that name by chance include a gay population, without which all of humanity is somehow less fit?"
You brought up homosexuality.  I agreed that homosexuality is the sort of thing intended to be covered by inclusive fitness (something that tends not to lead to an individual having as many children as a heterosexual, but where the presence of homosexuals could well be a overall benefit to the reproductive success of a group, raising the status of a group via artistic contributions, for instance, or helping to provide childcare, or such like).  That is not a claim to understand the origin of homosexuality.  

Inclusive fitness explains very nicely (mathematically and as demonstrated via field and lab studies) that altruistic behaviors and behaviors that do not lead to an individual's personal reproductive success can nonetheless be selected for during evolution.  It is best worked out with regard to (1) animals that offer warnings that increase their own risk but help save their relatives, and (2) eusocial insects like ants and bees with unusual (for us) patterns of relatedness (with clones, haploid individuals, and so forth).    

You now insist that I need to have or claimed falsely to have an explanation for the causes of homosexuality.  The origin of homosexuality is not what you or I have been discussing, and it's not what I claimed.  Again, inclusive fitness, about which you remain ignorant, explains very well how apparently nonadaptive behavior can nonetheless be selected for during the course of evolution.  It has been a tremendously successful area of biology.

I did not say that we do not understand how altruistic behavior can expand through a population.  We do know this.  If an altruistic behavior has a genetic component (is selectable), it can be selected if its average or expected cost to an individual is exceeded by the benefits in reproductive success reaped by the individual's close relatives.  Again, as Haldane said, "I would gladly lay down my life for two brothers or eight cousins."

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5085
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2017,19:21   

www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/04/12/dinosaur-ancestors-had-crankles-crocodile-ankles-scientists/
Quote
"Our discovery shows the value of maintaining and re-assessing historical collections: many new discoveries, like this one, can be made by looking through museum collections with fresh eyes."


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The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
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