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Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2008,15:48   

Start with this one:

Any observation can be reconciled with the actions of an all powerful supernatural intelligence. Therefore no observation can empirically confirm or disconfirm the hypothesis of supernatural design. Supernatural design is therefore beyond the reach of the scientific method.

That alone sinks your position in a scientific context.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Daniel Smith



Posts: 970
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2008,16:00   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Dec. 07 2008,13:43)
     
Quote (Daniel Smith @ Dec. 07 2008,16:39)
         
Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Dec. 06 2008,05:44)
Time to tally Daniel's further concessions:
[snip]

Shouldn't that read:              
Quote
Time to tally Daniel's further concessions (as I've reinterpreted them to conform to my own warped worldview, in which I cannot fathom how any reasonable person could disagree with me, so what I do is basically ignore most of what they say in favor of my own biased interpretation - so that I will always think that I am right):

It should read exactly as it reads: as a list of unrefuted statements, most of which are fatal to your position.

Your move here is to refute them, not further ignore.

Honestly Bill, you've proven over and over that it doesn't matter what I say - you'll just twist things to suit your own views.  You're incapable of comprehending an opposing view.

In the meantime, your large lacunae (the nuts and bolts of how evolution actually works) remains fully unexplained.  If you want to believe that you've completely refuted me - believe it - it's perfectly in keeping with your (also unfounded) belief that naturalism explains everything.

Your position cannot be argued against because you've set up safeguards around it which ensure that opposing arguments cannot even be considered unless they conform to your specifications (which just happen to only allow for your position).  But you can't see that because you're blinded to reality.

How many times will you ignore my plea for you to explain how evolution produced just one biological system?  

Bill?

Where'd you go?

BILL!!!  Oh BIIILLLLLL!

hmm, I guess he ran away again...

--------------
"If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance."  Orville Wright

"The presence or absence of a creative super-intelligence is unequivocally a scientific question."  Richard Dawkins

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2008,16:23   

Time to tally Daniel's further concessions:

- Daniel concedes that each of his responses here are refuted.

- Daniel concedes that he has no empirical way of deciding if there is one designer, or a quadrillion designers.

- Daniel concedes that it doesn't follow that if we don't know the history of something, that "something" must have miraculous origins - yet this is exactly the argument he is making.

- Daniel repeatedly concedes that any observation can be reconciled with the actions of an all powerful supernatural intelligence. Therefore no observation can empirically confirm or disconfirm the hypothesis of supernatural design. Supernatural design is therefore beyond the reach of the scientific method.

- Daniel concedes these points on the naturalism and supernatural agency.

- Daniel concedes that experimental studies such as Lenski's flatly contradict his assertion that no observation can empirically confirm or disconfirm the hypothesis of natural selection.

- Daniel concedes that he does not understand the relationship of functional integration and design.

- Daniel concedes that biological science would look the same regardless of the God's activity, demonstrating the inherent irrelevance of "God theory."

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2008,16:33   

This objection has nothing to do with naturalism. It has to do with empiricism:

"Any observation can be reconciled with the actions of an all powerful supernatural intelligence. Therefore no observation can empirically confirm or disconfirm the hypothesis of supernatural design. Supernatural design is therefore beyond the reach of the scientific method."

The result is that no empirical traction relevant to your god theory is possible.

Your move here is to show how that is wrong: how empirical traction is possible in light of the fact that no observation can empirically confirm or disconfirm the hypothesis of supernatural design.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Daniel Smith



Posts: 970
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2008,16:57   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Dec. 07 2008,14:33)
This objection has nothing to do with naturalism. It has to do with empiricism:

"Any observation can be reconciled with the actions of an all powerful supernatural intelligence. Therefore no observation can empirically confirm or disconfirm the hypothesis of supernatural design. Supernatural design is therefore beyond the reach of the scientific method."

The result is that no empirical traction relevant to your god theory is possible.

Your move here is to show how that is wrong: how empirical traction is possible in light of the fact that no observation can empirically confirm or disconfirm the hypothesis of supernatural design.


I've noticed that my responses to you are handled in either of two ways Bill: A) you completely ignore what I say and then pretend I had no answer, or B) you twist my answer to fit your conclusions.  I'm not going to continually repeat this cycle.  I'd suggest you go back and reread all my answers to your challenges and then read all your non-answers to mine.

I've already refuted this once - all it takes to empirically falsify the "God theory" is to show how one complex biological system originated naturally.  Of course, you conveniently don't remember that.  

So, what are we left with then?  We have a choice between a theory that explains everything and can be easily falsified, or one that explains nothing and cannot be falsified.

I vote for the former.

--------------
"If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance."  Orville Wright

"The presence or absence of a creative super-intelligence is unequivocally a scientific question."  Richard Dawkins

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2008,16:59   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Dec. 07 2008,13:29)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Dec. 05 2008,22:52)
So.... what you're saying is... it looks like someone designed it, so therefore God designed it.

It's all complicated-like, and you can't understand how it evolved, so it didn't evolve.

Bravo.

Please, don't quit your day job at the garage.

You're close, I've corrected it for you:                      
Quote
So.... what you're saying is... it looks like someone with unlimited intelligence designed it, so therefore God designed it.

It's all complicated-like, and you can't  no one can  understand how it evolved, so it didn't evolve.

Funny, I don't recall you making a single successful argument for your Designer With Unlimited Intelligence.

Show me one argument you've made that doesn't boil down to this.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2008,17:47   

No one's mentioned any specific systems? Really?

Do I really have to laboriously type out several libraries worth of information, or is simply pointing you to it sufficient? Read the Luisi book and references therein. There you will find the answers you claim to be seeking.

Although I think that this claimed interest of yours is utterly disingenuous seeing as you are merely reiterating your argument from mere assertion, ignorance and incredulity. Why should anyone bother discussing the technicalities of current science with you when the very basics of entry level philosophy are demonstrably beyond you?

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2008,18:34   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Dec. 07 2008,17:57)
I've already refuted this once - all it takes to empirically falsify the "God theory" is to show how one complex biological system originated naturally.  Of course, you conveniently don't remember that.

Once again, with feeling:

What you are describing here is the activity (and attainments) of science conducted without regard to "god theory." That work has been conducted, and will continue, without attending to or deriving guidance from "god theory." "God theory," whether expressed in the affirmative or the negative, cannot and will not make the slightest predictive contribution to this effort, and therefore can never put itself at risk of disconfirmation in any active or scientifically constructive sense. That is because any observation can be reconciled with the actions of an all powerful supernatural intelligence - even the articulation, in the detail you demand, of the natural origins of a complex living system. A supernatural intelligence may "design" things to arise in just such a natural way. Moreover, the discovery of one such natural origin would not logically exclude the possibility that other systems arose through more direct supernatural design - assembled like little automobiles (although I would predict the sight of goalposts moving on the horizon). Therefore no observation can empirically confirm or disconfirm the hypothesis of supernatural design. Supernatural design is therefore beyond the reach of the scientific method and of no value to actual research.
         
Quote
Your position cannot be argued against because you've set up safeguards around it which ensure that opposing arguments cannot even be considered unless they conform to your specifications (which just happen to only allow for your position).

The safeguards and specifications to which you refer are the most basic requirements of empirical science, and are certainly not of my devising. It is refreshing to hear you state that you understand, at some level, that your argument does not merit consideration within that context. That's all we've been saying: your position has no relevance to science conducted within the framework of methodological naturalism.

[edits for clarity]

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2008,18:41   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Dec. 07 2008,16:57)
I've already refuted this once - all it takes to empirically falsify the "God theory" is to show how one complex biological system originated naturally.  Of course, you conveniently don't remember that.  

So, what are we left with then?  We have a choice between a theory that explains everything and can be easily falsified, or one that explains nothing and cannot be falsified.

I vote for the former.

Nonsense.  How do we know that this "god"-thing didn't use a method that appears natural?  Thus, even a supposed "falisification" of this particular god-theory isn't a falsification.  About the best that could be said is that one particular god-theory out of thousands might be falisified.  

Of course, that all assumes that there is evidence for a god-theory, since all this argument is is a false dichotomy.  If, somehow, biological evolution through natural selection and other mechanisms somehow was falsified (and it can be), it would not make any particular god-theory a winner by default.  Positive evidence is needed.  We still have yet to see any presented, just a lot of "nuh-huh" arguments from incredulity.  

That said, I'm sure all this has been said before, and I'm sure it will be conveniently ignored or written off.  Always the same.  I do have to ask others, since I haven't gone back to try to pick out the whole argument, but has Daniel gotten the "if evolution is false then my particular version of god created the universe" argument out of the way, or is this still part of the argument?  It gets confusing.

--------------
"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
PvM

Unregistered



(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2008,19:05   

From Vindication:

<blockquote>
<strong>Ray Martinez said:</strong>

<strong>DI ID</strong> is not a novel movement. They owe their science to William Paley (see Behe, 1996). I coud cite Darwin, Dawkins and Pigliucci testifying to Paley's first-rate biological scholarship. I doubt the latter two have the same respect for DI ID biology.
</blockquote>

There is no science within ID relevant to the concept of "Design". While historically they may appeal to Paley, their foundation is much more simple: When the courts rejected creation science, DI developed a Wedge Strategy to allow the introduction of God.

<blockquote> Elsberry's celebration is unwarranted. He has made headway against straw men, corruption and subjectivity, not Creationism or Intelligent Design.  
</blockquote>



That however does seem cause for celibration. Headway against corruption. Of course, other ID proponents have done little to further their cause of either Creationism or Intelligent Design.
Those are the simple facts.

John Kwok

Unregistered



(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2008,19:05   

From Vindication:

Dear Ray:

Darwin's admiration for Paley waned considerably both during, and especially, after the HMS Beagle voyage. "On the Origin of Species" should be seen in part as one long extended argument against Paley's notion of "Intelligent Design", in which Darwin demonstrated persuasively how such design could arise via a natural process known as Natural Selection.

I suggest you read the relevant literature again before you cite Darwin, Dawkins and Pigliucci and those who have "praised" Paley's work.

Respectfully yours,

John

Ray Martinez

Unregistered



(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2008,19:05   

From Vindication:

<blockquote>
<strong>John Kwok said:</strong>

Dear Ray:

Darwin's admiration for Paley waned considerably both during, and especially, after the HMS Beagle voyage. "On the Origin of Species" should be seen in part as one long extended argument against Paley's notion of "Intelligent Design",[....]
</blockquote>

Contradictory flow.

You begin by stating that Darwin's admiration for Paley waned during and after the Beagle voyage. THEN you state that the "Origin" was a reply to Paley.

Fact: Darwin's admiration never waned for Paley since his praise for Paley was recorded in his Autobiography written during the last six years of his life.

And you are correct that the "Origin" was a reply to Paleyan ID (1802).

<blockquote>I suggest you read the relevant literature again before you cite Darwin, Dawkins and Pigliucci and those who have "praised" Paley's work.</blockquote>

All three men have praised Paley. Apparently you are not aware.

But the point of your comment escapes me. I think you misinterpret "praise" and "respect." One can praise and respect another but disagree with their interpretations and conclusions. Paley is held in high regard by modern Darwinists. Darwin disagreed vehemently with Paley but he held him to be a formidable opponent.

Ray

John Kwok

Unregistered



(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2008,19:05   

From Vindication:

Dear Ray:

If Paley is held in "high esteem", then you'd see tributes from scientists held in his honor. There are none I know of. Instead, we are getting ready to celebrate next year not only Darwin's bicentennial of his birth, but also the 150th anniversary of the original publication of "On the Origin of Species".

Paley has been discredited by the likes of Ayala, Darwin, Dawkins, Gould, Pigliucci and others for generations. Your interpretation of Paley's "appreciation" stands in stark contrast to what I read from scientists like those I've cited when I was in grad school and beyond, to the very present.

Respectfully yours,

John Kwok

PvM

Unregistered



(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2008,19:05   

From Vindication:

<quote>Paley is held in high regard by modern Darwinists. Darwin disagreed vehemently with Paley but he held him to be a formidable opponent.</quote>

In high regard in what aspect? That he was wrong?

PvM

Unregistered



(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2008,19:05   

From Vindication:

<quote>You begin by stating that Darwin’s admiration for Paley waned during and after the Beagle voyage. THEN you state that the “Origin” was a reply to Paley. </quote>

That is not necessary a contradiction. Admiration could indeed be waning especially given the fact that Darwin had found a better solution than Paley's appeal to the supernatural

Flint

Unregistered



(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2008,19:05   

From Vindication:

<quote>Admiration could indeed be waning especially given the fact that Darwin had found a better solution than Paley’s appeal to the supernatural</quote> In principle this is not a fact, this is a policy position. Paley said, essentially, that how life forms originated is <i>inherently</i> forever beyond our understanding, that no possible explanation can be remotely as plausible as magic, and that we are best off worshiping rather than trying to understand it. At best, we can devise some apparently natural mechanism that might fit what little we're capable of observing, and we can kid ourselves that we're onto something.

Imagine some phenomenon that, for the sake of the mental exercise, meets these criteria. It is totally magic, outside of cause and effect, generated by "supernatural" means where "supernatural" is a code word meaning, inherently beyond human understanding. Now, how would science approach such a phenomenon? I submit science would presume (as it must) natural causes, find some (or many), subdivide one single phenomenon up according to which aspects of it seem related to which apparent causes, perform tests some of which (through sheer statistical distribution) would seem to explain some of it, toss the rest as needing reclassificiation or better methods, etc.

What makes Darwin's approach "better" than Paley's is that it appears to make useful predictions, in the sense that helpful discoveries have been made by assuming and treating such things as predictions. Part of what we've determined gives every indication of being at least mostly correct, as far as it goes. Is our "hit rate" better than science would generate in the case of "genuine pure magic"? How could we know?

Paley has not held our admiration mostly because when "magic" was presumed to be the cause of most everything, societies worldwide were depressingly static in their lack of progress toward any real (i.e. useful) understandings. The conceptual breakthrough that man COULD understand nature, at least in small and limited ways, and could validate such understandings and distinguish among competing proposals, has increased the human rate of understanding of the world we live in by a factor of at least 20, probably much more. After all, <i>anything</i> can be "explained" by magic, leaving nobody the wiser. Which is how it was done for millennia.

Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2008,19:16   

Daniel are you trolling two boards at one now?

the looseness of your definitions of things like 'system' and 'natural' and 'theory' suggest to any honest observers that a bit of house cleaning is in order before you can even begin to deduce what the question is.  

the question for you is "How can I figure out a way to describe this rock so that it demands the existence of the almighty triune god of the old and new testament?"

that's a bit boring.  it's fun to piss on it and point out how stupid an enterprise it is.  But it goes nowhere.  Just circle wanking.

When you start imagining that your criticisms are scientifically relevant or even pertinent (they aren't:  see RB's notes about empiricism, again) it is tiresome and stupid.  you say the same ignorant shit over and over again, people will probably get upset when you start raising your voice.

it has nothing to do with science and everything to do with your post modern charade of scientism as a motivator for your metaphysick.  things are hard to understand therefore Yahweh.  It's a leap of faith that only someone who secretly understood the puppet show would take.  you are a fraud.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2008,19:17   

Quote (Badger3k @ Dec. 07 2008,19:41)
...has Daniel gotten the "if evolution is false then my particular version of god created the universe" argument out of the way, or is this still part of the argument?

Nope, that's pretty much the entirety of his argument to date.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2008,20:09   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Dec. 07 2008,13:29)
I've cited actual enzymes and amino acid synthesis systems, you people have [snipped] those and cited reasons why science doesn't have any answers that explain those systems.  

I cite evidence, you cite arguments.

Wait wait wait.

You actually believe that citing things that science can't explain to your satisfaction is "EVIDENCE"?

So you assume that a lack of an explanation, or you not accepting a scientific explanation, automatically defaults to God Did It.

Tell you what. You said this:

 
Quote

it looks like someone with unlimited intelligence designed it, so therefore God designed it.


Please explain your mechanism by which someone with unlimited intelligence designed it. While you're at it, show evidence for your someone with unlimited intelligence.

No babbling about how "obviously evolution can't work, therefore design". And no "everyone just AGREES that God is obvious except YOU GUYS!" We'll just laugh at you some more if you repeat that.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2008,21:00   

Quote
I wonder who was large enough to step on those bears and extincitify them?


Dinosaurs. ;)

Henry

  
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2008,21:04   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Dec. 07 2008,19:17)
Quote (Badger3k @ Dec. 07 2008,19:41)
...has Daniel gotten the "if evolution is false then my particular version of god created the universe" argument out of the way, or is this still part of the argument?

Nope, that's pretty much the entirety of his argument to date.

That is what I thought, but wasn't sure.

Sheesh!  ???

--------------
"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2008,21:05   

Maybe we can convince Daniel to stop underlining for emphasis so we can stop clicking on words that aren't links.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2008,22:03   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Dec. 07 2008,19:05)
Maybe we can convince Daniel to stop underlining for emphasis so we can stop clicking on words that aren't links.

Bill, quit your damn underlining!!!

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
bfish



Posts: 267
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2008,02:18   

Quote (Guest @ Dec. 07 2008,17:05)
From Vindication:
Paley said, essentially, that how life forms originated is <i>inherently</i> forever beyond our understanding, that no possible explanation can be remotely as plausible as magic, and that we are best off worshiping rather than trying to understand it.
At best, we can devise some apparently natural mechanism that might fit what little we're capable of observing, and we can kid ourselves that we're onto something.

My guess is that Flint hasn't read one word of Daniel Smith, and yet, he seems to be very familiar with his arguments.

Ze permalink, as bounced from Panda's Thumb to page 330 of Bathroom Wall-E.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2008,05:51   

Quote (bfish @ Dec. 08 2008,03:18)
Quote (Guest @ Dec. 07 2008,17:05)
From Vindication:
Paley said, essentially, that how life forms originated is <i>inherently</i> forever beyond our understanding, that no possible explanation can be remotely as plausible as magic, and that we are best off worshiping rather than trying to understand it.
At best, we can devise some apparently natural mechanism that might fit what little we're capable of observing, and we can kid ourselves that we're onto something.

My guess is that Flint hasn't read one word of Daniel Smith, and yet, he seems to be very familiar with his arguments.

Ze permalink, as bounced from Panda's Thumb to page 330 of Bathroom Wall-E.

At best, creationist arguments are subject to microevolution. But at the end of the day, they're still of the creationist kind.

Macroevolution would be if a creationist argument produced a scientific one. I defy you to show me a step by step mechanism that would turn a creationist argument into a scientific one. It's never been observed. It CAN'T be observed.

Fish with legs, dinosaurs with feathers, but creationists with assumed conclusions and a hard outer shell for blocking enlightenment. It boggles the mind that the species is not yet extinct, given it's lack of adaptation to new information. The population seems to be getting artificial support by means of a zoo-like or preserve-like network of churches whereby nonadaptive behavior is sustained by rampant, uncontrolled breeding in social isolation.

As it cannot, by definition, allow adaptation to new information, it is an evolutionary dead end and always will be.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2008,06:12   

Uh, oh!  Ray-Ray has had posts sent to the Bathroom Wall.  Prepare for a long tirade concerning censorship with such atheist luminaries as Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler, and the entire government of communist China thrown in for reference purposes.  He plays this particular card at TalkRational whenever his natterings are sent to TBW equivalent, The Compost Heap, or when somebody declares they are putting him on "ignore".

Silly, silly little man.

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I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
k.e..



Posts: 5432
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2008,07:23   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Dec. 08 2008,00:57)
I've already refuted this once - all it takes to empirically falsify the "God theory" is to show how one complex biological system originated naturally.  Of course, you conveniently don't remember that.  

So, what are we left with then?  We have a choice between a theory that explains everything and can be easily falsified, or one that explains nothing and cannot be falsified.

I vote for the former.



You have just unintentionaly answered your own question except the correct answer is the latter.

Ever heard of Occam's Razor ?

Except in this case everything beats ...uh nothing.

Prepare for a simple lesson in logic, theology and philosophy.

Over to you Danny Boy.

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"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
mitschlag



Posts: 236
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2008,07:33   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Dec. 07 2008,16:57)
I've already refuted this once - all it takes to empirically falsify the "God theory" is to show how one complex biological system originated naturally.  Of course, you conveniently don't remember that.

This is getting confusing.  How could any empirical finding falsify the "God theory"?

Which god is it?  Is the god Jesus, the Trinity, Brahma, Vishnu, Zeus, The Great Spirit, Satan?  What?

What are the god's properties?  I hope one of them is perfect goodness, because malevolent gods give me the creeps.
   
Quote
So, what are we left with then?  We have a choice between a theory that explains everything and can be easily falsified, or one that explains nothing and cannot be falsified.

I vote for the former.


Now I'm thoroughly confused.  I thought the God theory was the one that explained nothing and couldn't be falsified.

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"You can establish any “rule” you like if you start with the rule and then interpret the evidence accordingly." - George Gaylord Simpson (1902-1984)

  
k.e..



Posts: 5432
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2008,08:49   

Quote (mitschlag @ Dec. 08 2008,15:33)
Quote (Daniel Smith @ Dec. 07 2008,16:57)
I've already refuted this once - all it takes to empirically falsify the "God theory" is to show how one complex biological system originated naturally.  Of course, you conveniently don't remember that.

This is getting confusing.  How could any empirical finding falsify the "God theory"?

Which god is it?  Is the god Jesus, the Trinity, Brahma, Vishnu, Zeus, The Great Spirit, Satan?  What?

What are the god's properties?  I hope one of them is perfect goodness, because malevolent gods give me the creeps.
   
Quote
So, what are we left with then?  We have a choice between a theory that explains everything and can be easily falsified, or one that explains nothing and cannot be falsified.

I vote for the former.


Now I'm thoroughly confused.  I thought the God theory was the one that explained nothing and couldn't be falsified.

Expect Danny Boy to obfuscate and change subject back to wrenches and little boys.

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"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2008,08:55   

Quote (mitschlag @ Dec. 08 2008,07:33)
 
Quote (Daniel Smith @ Dec. 07 2008,16:57)
I've already refuted this once - all it takes to empirically falsify the "God theory" is to show how one complex biological system originated naturally.  Of course, you conveniently don't remember that.

This is getting confusing.  How could any empirical finding falsify the "God theory"?

Which god is it?  Is the god Jesus, the Trinity, Brahma, Vishnu, Zeus, The Great Spirit, Satan?  What?

What are the god's properties?  I hope one of them is perfect goodness, because malevolent gods give me the creeps.
     
Quote
So, what are we left with then?  We have a choice between a theory that explains everything and can be easily falsified, or one that explains nothing and cannot be falsified.

I vote for the former.


Now I'm thoroughly confused.  I thought the God theory was the one that explained nothing and couldn't be falsified.

I think Danny was hoping that nobody was paying attention when he wrote that. I noticed it too, but couldn't bring myself to waste the electrons needed to say

BWAAAAHAAAHAAA!

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Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
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