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  Topic: Uncommonly Dense Thread 3, The Beast Marches On...< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
CeilingCat



Posts: 2363
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 22 2009,23:35   

Quote (JohnW @ Sep. 22 2009,14:37)
 
Quote (Maya @ Sep. 22 2009,12:33)
   
Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 22 2009,13:44)
Considering he's retired and just had a hip operation, he's probably only a danger to himself.

Ah, so all the posturing is to try to attract him some Granny Tard luvvin'!

You win the Ghastly Mental Image Of The Day award, Maya.  I just had lunch too.

Yeah, I had lunch too.  Now it's all over the desk and floor.

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 2363
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 22 2009,23:50   

How the mind of a Biblical literalist works as described by KairosFocus:      
Quote
2] Provenance is thus about right, chain of custody is reasonable, and there are no signs of obvious fraud, so on the Ancient Documents Rule — failing credible explanation otherwise [i.e burden of disproof is now on those who would reject the programs] — it seems on preponderance of evidence these are the right “original” pgms, PASCAL version at least. (The BASIC version would be interesting . . . )

The "provenance" is that the handle has "oxford" embedded in it, the "chain of custody" is an anonymous handle on a whacko blog and there are no obvious signs of fraud to a person who happens to be dead or in a coma.  "...so on the Ancient Documents Rule — failing credible explanation otherwise [i.e burden of disproof is now on those who would reject the programs] — it seems on preponderance of evidence these are the right 'original' pgms..."

Life really starts to make sense when you abandon logic and evidence and just start using your God-given Discernment.

  
k.e..



Posts: 5432
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2009,00:15   

Quote (Maya @ Sep. 23 2009,00:40)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 22 2009,16:36)
But..but... I got a new bag and hat, special.  :angry:


I really do worry wonder about the pictures you boys have so close to hand....

Well at least you can see both of his in that photo.

Did you know the average purse can hold about a dozen gerbils?

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
Turncoat



Posts: 129
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2009,02:48   

Quote (didymos @ Sep. 22 2009,20:30)
Personally, I think it's high time Clivebaby started quoting Huey Lewis at every opportunity.  Or Emmanuel Lewis.

"I want a new drug. One that won't make me sick."

--------------
I never give them hell. I just tell the truth about them, and they think it's hell. — Harry S Truman

  
1of63



Posts: 126
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2009,05:34   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 22 2009,23:22)
Dear Joseph, who wrote:

   
Quote
38

Joseph

09/21/2009

7:00 pm

Cumulative selection implies a target.

Otherwise cumulative is meaningless.




Got it?

Wrong.

Much as I hate to agree with the little weasel, he's right.

If something is selected, it is one thing chosen from a range of others.  

In cumulative selection, a number of things are chosen in succession using the same criteria.  In other words, they are being selected with a particular purpose, goal or target in mind.

No target, no selection.

Except in nature, where there is no mind but the target is survival.

 
Quote
As for being a targeted search, well, of course it is. You cannot have a search unless you have something to search for just as you cannot have selection unless you have some target towards which selection is directed.

In the case of WEASEL or similar programs, the author sets the target. In the natural world, the environment in which the organism has to survive sets the target or targets.
Seversky

--------------
I set expectations at zero, and FL limbos right under them. - Tracy P. Hamilton

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2009,08:25   

Quote
In cumulative selection, a number of things are chosen in succession using the same criteria.  In other words, they are being selected with a particular purpose, goal or target in mind.
Generating a fitness score does not require a particular target.

You can as Zach has done, have a target that mutates along with the population, or you can have a diffuse target that models all the viable combinations or strings.

Your statement is wrong on at least two separate counts.

In the wandering weasel, the target can change for successive generations.

But it is also possible to score substrings rather than the entire string, resulting in the possibility that individual characters change in fitness value.

And of course, Dawkins himself, after about four pages of describing Weasel, introduces biomorphs, which have no target at all. Nevertheless, they accumulate selected changes.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2009,09:54   

Joseph and Kairosfocus talk about Pi. It ends with Joseph noting:
 
Quote
IOW if we asked 1,000 people to give a value for Pi we could predict that they wouldn’t all be the same.

Trainwreck.

Along the way Gordon Mullings states the obvious
 
Quote
One reason not to use pi etc in your friendly local encrypting system!

Several times
 
Quote
And of course one of my little challeges to the chance folks is to get 1,000 bits of functionally specific algorithmic or linguistic info out of such a chance process. Y’know, write some Word files or a short Pascal pgm


...

And what would that prove Gordon?

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2009,10:03   

O'Leary explanins the origins of bird migration
Quote


Joseph, thanks for the information and thanks for recalling Sermonti, one of the first to question the Darwin nonsense.

Obviously, these creatures use a method that depends on things that change little from year to year.

That would suggest they use the sky, and would also explain why weather conditions might delay them by occlusion.

In northern regions, the colder it gets, the brighter the sky (unless a blizzard descends, where vast snow insulates).

But almost all have left before then.

I kid you not. No, really.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2009,10:31   

joseph is a genius (and closet YEC?)

Quote
8
Joseph
09/23/2009
9:32 am
Denyse,

I say it is all programming.

IOW migration is downloaded into the DNA along with the rest of the software required- for development and day-to-day operations.

Sermonti also talks about butterflies- how they flutter about one their own- that they must have a system of recognition of group identity.

But anyway about the birds one person commnted:

An animal with an innate image of the firmament!


butterfly = computer = bye bye freewill

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Quack



Posts: 1961
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2009,11:26   

Quote
No target, no selection.

Except in nature, where there is no mind but the target is survival.

Right, May it also be expressed like the target is about fitness, a measure of chance of survival with respect to a fitness landscape? But I suppose that is implicit in "survival"

I see the target phrase as a stand-in for the fitness landscape.

I don't think this is difficult except when one has a mental block against it.

--------------
Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2009,12:07   

Quote
I see the target phrase as a stand-in for the fitness landscape.


I'm sorry to keep repeating this, but selection can be based on any of the following, plus any that I haven't thought of.

Random selection, as by asteroid impacts or supervolcanoes. Not difficult to model in software.

Wandering fitness functions, as in real life, with changing environments and ecosystems. Also not difficult to model.

Capricious selection, as in Dawkins' biomorphs.

Target proximity, as in most Weasel implementations.

Diffuse fitness, in which there are multiple possible targets, and in which a specific character may change in fitness value depending on the value of other characters. This is also not difficult to model in software.

You could also model wandering diffuse fitness.

What Behe would like you to believe is that structures like the flagellum are some kind of Platonic ideal to be searched for, rather than something arrived at through a series of contingencies having no plan or foresight.

There is an interesting empirical question posed as to exactly what historic steps produced the flagellum, but not having that history is no more troubling than not having the exact facts in any historical event.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Touchstone



Posts: 28
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2009,14:01   

Here's something you don't see everyday... kairosfocus making a coherent, short(ish) post CORRECTING Joseph:

Quote
the sequence of digits in pi will be similar to the patterns of appearance of a flat random generator’s o/p.


http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....-335053

I couldn't think of a clever term, but there's some kind of threshold being crossed here, when Joseph's tard is so thick, even KF can identify it as tard. "Crossing the KF limit" or some such.

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2009,14:23   

Quote (Touchstone @ Sep. 23 2009,14:01)
I couldn't think of a clever term, but there's some kind of threshold being crossed here, when Joseph's tard is so thick, even KF can identify it as tard. "Crossing the KF limit" or some such.


Don't cross the streams!

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Dr_Dave



Posts: 2
Joined: Mar. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2009,14:55   

Ahoy hoy!

Long time lurker, first time poster. Been routinely amused and edumacated by this thread for years now.

Don't know if anyone saw (apologies if it's been mentioned already), but Google launched "sidewiki" today.

http://www.google.com/sidewiki/intl/en_GB/index.html

A fascinating application that allows independent commenting on any webpage on the internet. It basically allows informed experts to post independent comments alongside, for example, any blog post that, maybe, didn't have a balanced commenting policy already. Thus allowing visitors to that page to learn more about the subject matter in question.

I can't imagine where that might come in handy...

Dave

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2009,16:04   

Dr_Dave that's too bad.  It might make this thread obsolete.  Welcome!  Hang out, have a drink, be aware that Louis might ask you to try on a bear costume.  You don't have to if you don't wanna.  if you do wanna might wanna warsh it first

Hi touchstone I still laugh my ass off at Joe-Tards pet name for you.  I do appreciate the people that point out stupid.  There is hope yet.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2009,20:01   

I addedd a SideWiki comment pointing out that Mullings was wrong about "latching" in "weasel" and hasn't had the guts to admit it.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Ptaylor



Posts: 1180
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2009,20:44   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Sep. 24 2009,13:01)
I addedd a SideWiki comment pointing out that Mullings was wrong about "latching" in "weasel" and hasn't had the guts to admit it.

It's on 'The Original WEASEL(s)' thread here, and I notice there is a 'usefulness' voting function.
Edited: added an earle

--------------
We no longer say: “Another day; another bad day for Darwinism.” We now say: “Another day since the time Darwinism was disproved.”
-PaV, Uncommon Descent, 19 June 2016

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2009,22:41   

My long-lived, most excellent puppet Diffaxial has been silently banninated at UD, following a mild tweak of StephenB. I'll reconstruct that jibe from memory as best I can:
 
Quote
30 years later, StephenB sits alone on a park bench, clutching his cane:

"And then I said, all things that come to exist have a... uh...uh... a something. A cause! Ha! By cracky Diffaxitive I got you that time. That's what I said! I think that's, I think that's what I said. Heh Heh. I said. Heh. That Diffixative."

:D

Too close to homeless, apparently.

This occurred on the Shrinking Timeline thread.

(Cross posted from the Czar thread.)

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
sparc



Posts: 2088
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2009,22:57   

Quote (Ptaylor @ Sep. 23 2009,20:44)
   
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Sep. 24 2009,13:01)
I addedd a SideWiki comment pointing out that Mullings was wrong about "latching" in "weasel" and hasn't had the guts to admit it.

It's on The Original WEASEL(s) thread, and I notice there is a 'usefulness' voting function.

This is like searching KF's first use of the term FSCI (you may judge if my comment on my comment on FCSI explanation in the UD Glossary is helpful). So,  which was the original Weasel thread? Link please, I want to leave my vote there.
If you want to link to your sidewiki entrance directly you will find it in your google profile. Just copy the link address under the "more" button. Your comment will pop up together with the original page you commented on.

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"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
Ptaylor



Posts: 1180
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2009,23:30   

Quote (sparc @ Sep. 24 2009,15:57)
So,  which was the original Weasel thread? Link please, I want to leave my vote there.

Sorry, got lazy - here it is.

--------------
We no longer say: “Another day; another bad day for Darwinism.” We now say: “Another day since the time Darwinism was disproved.”
-PaV, Uncommon Descent, 19 June 2016

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 2363
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2009,00:12   

The Constitutional Scholar explains herself:    
Quote
I had almost forgotten. I helped draft our Constitution in 1981. But no one minds that kind of thing any more. Unless … could there now be hope?

Later, in the same thread:    
Quote
1

IRQ Conflict

09/22/2009

5:29 am
“I helped draft our Constitution in 1981.”

Really? Wow! That’s something to brag to the grand kids about eh?
 
Quote
11

feebish

09/23/2009

12:40 am
I’m with IRQ Conflict on this one. I think I mentioned in one of my first comments here that I got to live in Toronto for a year and enjoyed it very much. Please tell us what part you played in the drafting of the Constitution! Even if it was small, I’d like to hear it.
   
Quote
14

O'Leary

09/23/2009

11:54 am
Feebish at 11, I was summoned to Ottawa (our seat of government) in 1981, to testify about our new Constitution.

The government paid my plane fare.

I do not know what use they made of my information.

Well, a free plane ride!  That makes her a regular Tardus Jefferson.  I wonder if she testified for the constitution or against it?

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2009,00:20   

lolololol tardus jefferson

what a god damned fool

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Alan Fox



Posts: 1556
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2009,00:40   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Sep. 23 2009,15:01)
I addedd a SideWiki comment pointing out that Mullings was wrong about "latching" in "weasel" and hasn't had the guts to admit it.

I see it. The marvels of modern technology!

  
Alan Fox



Posts: 1556
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2009,00:42   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Sep. 23 2009,17:41)
My long-lived, most excellent puppet Diffaxial has been silently banninated at UD, following a mild tweak of StephenB. I'll reconstruct that jibe from memory as best I can:
 
Quote
30 years later, StephenB sits alone on a park bench, clutching his cane:

"And then I said, all things that come to exist have a... uh...uh... a something. A cause! Ha! By cracky Diffaxiate I got you that time. That's what I said! I think that's, I think that's what I said. Heh Heh. I said. Heh. That Diffixiate."

:D

Too close to homeless, apparently.

This occurred on the Shrinking Timeline thread.

(Cross posted from the Czar thread.)

Congrats on the performance.

</envy

  
Touchstone



Posts: 28
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2009,00:50   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Sep. 23 2009,22:41)
My long-lived, most excellent puppet Diffaxial has been silently banninated at UD, following a mild tweak of StephenB. I'll reconstruct that jibe from memory as best I can:
   
Quote
30 years later, StephenB sits alone on a park bench, clutching his cane:

"And then I said, all things that come to exist have a... uh...uh... a something. A cause! Ha! By cracky Diffaxiate I got you that time. That's what I said! I think that's, I think that's what I said. Heh Heh. I said. Heh. That Diffixiate."

:D

Too close to homeless, apparently.

This occurred on the Shrinking Timeline thread.

(Cross posted from the Czar thread.)

Diffaxial is banninated?? Ouch. That was a hell of a run.

I saw that that StephenB's witty retort -- something like "Diffaxial needs a laxative!" *yuk, yuk* -- got removed, too, so I was thinking it was just mod prudery against both sides...

That thread was easily the most lopsided spanking of StephenB I've seen to date (if only because it "summed" so many other damning points from previous threads). One *almost* gets the sense that StephenB has gotten a bit of glimpse of the scope and breadth of his mistakes at the "right reasoning" level. But that sense only lasts until you read his next post…

Diffaxial RIP.

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 2363
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2009,00:54   

From the Darrell Falk's Misshapen Theology thread:
Quote
10

alan

09/22/2009

9:08 am
Can you see God is now separating The Wheat and the Tares, The Foolish virgins and the Wise, the Sheep from the Goats. An example: theistic evolution as more of a means to escape from God (the Biblical One) specifically in terms of His Judgements which are His Word(s) as revealed in Romans 8 for example – the “bad” design can’t be due to a moral fall of man – we are not subject to futility that could give sight to the blind if willing to receive a repentance unto salvation – groaning inwardly I will not! Theistic Evolution: yet another religion = mans escape from God leading to books written replete with such illogic as to not be able to recognize it when writing it…as Bill points out “passing the buck”. Blind men looking at the Son. The Sheep from the Goats (Mt. 25) (Rev. 3:10) Be aware the your religion can be your hope that will keep you blind.

Daniel 12:12, God speaks of a blessed person who waits and comes to1,335 days. September 26, A.D. 29, announcing the Lamb of God to May 22, A.D. 33, the Day of Pentecost. The time between these two events was exactly 1,335 days inclusive, as Daniel 12:12 had predicted. God will allow you to have your religion which is your reward, but God has His Plan. So be free to be created in the image of darwin – or, and without apology as this applies to all including me, start paying better attention.

All science so far!

  
MichaelJ



Posts: 462
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2009,01:19   

Sidewiki doesn't work on Chrome!

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 2363
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2009,01:23   

Wow!  That Darrell Falk's Misshapen Theology thread is a goldmine of religious tardism.  tragic mishap steps up to the plate in messages 16 through 19 and gives a detailed rundown on some of God's greatest evils.  He even has a run at Calvinism.  And he's supposedly on religion's side.  Some samples:

 
Quote
In what Christian theology does there exist a God who is not responsible for death? God has decreed that “the wages of sin is death”. In Christianity, God is therefore responsible for the death of every human being who has ever lived. How could the assertion that God created pathogens make it any worse? lol.
 
Quote
The Bible I read places upon God the direct responsibility for plagues against Egyptians and even Israelites in the OT. He struck down Ananias and Saphira in the NT. What about Revelations?

Rev 14:19-20
“The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.”
 
Quote
Exodus 32:35
“And the LORD struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made.”

Numbers 11:33
“But while the meat was still between their teeth and before it could be consumed, the anger of the LORD burned against the people, and he struck them with a severe plague.”

There are also plagues in Numbers 14, 16 and 25 along with dire warnings in the Mosaic covenant of plagues if the people turned away from God. In 2 Samuel 24 and 1 Chronicles 21 God gave king David a choice of punishments and David chose a plague which lasted for three days and killed 70,000 people. God using plagues as a punishment is recorded and predicted in the prophetic books of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Amos, Habakkuk, Zechariah and Revelations. Again, which Bible are TEs reading?
Quote
It just occurred to me that the Calvinist definition of evil is even worse. In hardcore, five-point Calvinism, God determines every action that human beings take and indeed every event that has ever happened. The Calvinist theodicy justifies a God that directly causes evil in humans by suggesting that God causes evil so he may display his grace and mercy in forgiving us and redeeming us to himself. One might rightly wonder what he is trying to prove by displaying his grace and mercy to a bunch of machines. Regardless these TEs cannot be Calvinists because that option is actually worse from their perspective than the free will definition of evil.

All science so far!

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 2363
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2009,01:40   

Oh Joy!  Same Darell Falk's Misshapen thread:    
Quote
37

kairosfocus

09/23/2009

1:22 pm
Prof Beckwith.

Pardon a brief note or two:

45,000 words later, KF finishes and (rimshot) Frank Beckwith replies to him!  Tardfight!!  Get the popcorn!!

  
Occam's Toothbrush



Posts: 555
Joined: April 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2009,04:02   

Quote (CeilingCat @ Sep. 24 2009,01:12)
The Constitutional Scholar explains herself:      
Quote
I had almost forgotten. I helped draft our Constitution in 1981. But no one minds that kind of thing any more. Unless … could there now be hope?

Later, in the same thread:      
Quote
1

IRQ Conflict

09/22/2009

5:29 am
“I helped draft our Constitution in 1981.”

Really? Wow! That’s something to brag to the grand kids about eh?
   
Quote
11

feebish

09/23/2009

12:40 am
I’m with IRQ Conflict on this one. I think I mentioned in one of my first comments here that I got to live in Toronto for a year and enjoyed it very much. Please tell us what part you played in the drafting of the Constitution! Even if it was small, I’d like to hear it.
     
Quote
14

O'Leary

09/23/2009

11:54 am
Feebish at 11, I was summoned to Ottawa (our seat of government) in 1981, to testify about our new Constitution.

The government paid my plane fare.

I do not know what use they made of my information.

Well, a free plane ride!  That makes her a regular Tardus Jefferson.  I wonder if she testified for the constitution or against it?

She probably recommended 999999% more Jebus, then filled the rest of her testimony with links to her blogs.

--------------
"Molecular stuff seems to me not to be biology as much as it is a more atomic element of life" --Creo nut Robert Byers
------
"You need your arrogant ass kicked, and I would LOVE to be the guy who does it. Where do you live?" --Anger Management Problem Concern Troll "Kris"

  
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