ericmurphy
Posts: 2460
Joined: Oct. 2005
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| Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Sep. 26 2006,15:18) | | Not many of the best. Most of the best. And all of them are European. (This, of course, would count against my hypothesis, but honesty compels me to admit it, even if it makes the libbies squirm). |
Bill, all of the ones on your list are Europeans, but you've made no case, shaky or not, as to why your list should not include non-western mathematicians who have come up with such ideas as an actually-usable notation system, the concept of zero, and algebra.
Out of, say, the top 100 mathematicians of all time, how many are Europeans? Just those ten? Or some other number? And in any event, you still haven't explained what it is about Christianity in particular, as opposed to European culture in general, that makes one excel at mathematics. Without such a showing, all you've got is correlation, with not even a hypothesis as to causation.
Also: I'm a liberal, and I ain't squirmin.' I don't know where you got this idea that "liberals" hate Europeans.
| Quote | | Actually, I wouldn't wave Guns, Germs, and Steel around too much if I were you, because some racists believe that Diamond elucidates the selective pressures that shaped the Great White Brain. Diamond's anti-White agenda (all races are equal except for Whites, who are as dumb as lampposts) doesn't help you either.... |
Why not? Who cares what "some racists" think? Lots of religious fundamentalists such as yourself believe that Hitler owed an intellectual debt to Darwin (as well as that Hitler was a "liberal"), which even if true has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the merits of Evolutionary Theory.
Diamond is actually saying that accidents of geography, and the availability of domesticable animals, had more to do with the success of Western civilization than any other factors, and is the opposite of a claim that "selective pressures…shaped the Great White Brain." If a few idiot racists want to invert his conclusions, how is that Diamond's fault?
Further, Diamond doesn't argue that white people in particular are less intelligent than, e.g., New Guinean tribesman; he argues that people living in Western cultures are less intelligent because there's less need for intelligence than there is in the environment New Guinean tribesman live in. Have you actually read "Guns, Germs, and Steel," Bill, or are you basing your opinion of it on reviews?
And which do you believe, Bill? That Diamond hates whites, or that he thinks they're superior to the duskier races? You seem to believe both simultaneously.
| Quote | | You do raise a valid point, however: even if one rejects biological differences, how do I tease out the other historical variables? Well, one way would be to point out that the Muslims had recourse to the same Pagan scientists that the Christians had, but the Christians took it to the next level while Muslim mathematics stagnated. Same thing with the Hindus: they, too, had gems like Mahavira, Bramagupta, and Jyeshtadeva. Yet why, for example, did the Kerala school crash and burn, forcing 20th Century greats like Chandrasekhar, Bose, and Ramanujan to lean heavily on Western math? What dissipated the early advantages that these two cultures held over Europe? A peek into the Koran or Laws of Manu might provide a clue. |
But they won't help your argument, Bill, at least when it comes to mathematics. What is it specifically about being Christian that allows one to excel in mathematics? That's the part of your argument that's missing.
Meanwhile, I do have a hypothesis as to why Europe produced great mathematicians out of proportion to its population relative to the rest of the world: Europe, for at least the last 500 years, has produced sufficient wealth for at least a portion of the population that some individuals could devote their lives to developing the calculus as opposed to, say, subsistence farming. Why is that prior to the 20th century, famous African mathematicians were virtually unheard of? Could it be because there were no civilizations advanced enough to afford individuals the leisure time to muse on number theory rather than, e.g., animal husbandry?
Maybe Diamond is right, and agricultural techniques have more to do with the rise of mathematics than religion does?
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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity
"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams
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and individuals (Einstein) are doing some pretty #### good math and science. So what's your point? 
