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  Topic: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed., Sternberg, Gonzalez, Crocker - A film< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
didymos



Posts: 1828
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,01:58   

Fun with screencaps. "Inner Life of A Cell" is on the left, and "Expelled" is on the right.

Zooming through the actin:





Actin Network:




Vesicle being walked along a microtubule:




Golgi Apparati:




Nuclear Envelope pores:




Centrosome in the distance:




Transcription:




Umm, not sure, really....mitochondrion?:

I can't decide if this is what the "Expelled" folk were going for in the next caps:





I kinda think it was, based on the spatial arrangement in these caps, and the implied shape in the "Expelled" one. Not that sure, though:




Original Work?

This last one appears to be unique to "Expelled", or at least, plagiarized from some other source:



(Edited 11/4/2008:  New Image Host)

--------------
I wouldn't be bothered reading about the selfish gene because it has never been identified. -- Denyse O'Leary, professional moron
Again "how much". I don't think that's a good way to be quantitative.-- gpuccio

  
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,03:00   

Well, still, even though they look similar, that's not that strange. It's still the same cell, the same processes. There isn't that much room for difference, the Harvard animation kinda set the standard (so to say). No wonder they look alike, although the walking over the microtubule really made me frown. The rest isn't that super-duper plagiarised, tbh.
(I really feel like playing the devil's advocate)

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 2015
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,06:18   

Ben Stein Watch

Ben's not JUST a creationist crank. He's also an economist nutjob.

Last paragraph:  
Quote
Incidentally, does anybody have a clue what Stein might be talking about when he says that "Paulson's proposals divert the nation from such urgently needed measures as real solvency guarantees for the banks"? Is a "real solvency guarantee" the acceptable way of saying "bank bailout" in much the same way as "intelligent design" is simply a confusing way of saying "creationism"?


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...after reviewing the arguments, I’m inclined to believe that the critics of ENCODE’s bold claim were mostly right, and that the proportion of our genome which is functional is probably between 10 and 20%.  --Vincent Torley, uncommondescent.com 1/1/2016

  
didymos



Posts: 1828
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,06:38   

Quote (CeilingCat @ April 15 2008,04:18)
Ben Stein Watch

Ben's not JUST a creationist crank.  He's also an economist nutjob.
<snip>
[/quote]
The best quote in that article:
 
Quote

Of course, being attacked by Ben Stein is a bit like being harangued [for] no discernible reason by a demented vagrant: an impartial observer might feel sorry for the attacker, but none of the blows ever land.


--------------
I wouldn't be bothered reading about the selfish gene because it has never been identified. -- Denyse O'Leary, professional moron
Again "how much". I don't think that's a good way to be quantitative.-- gpuccio

  
didymos



Posts: 1828
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,06:49   

I'm sure someone has noticed this before, but what the hell.  The same guy also had an entry on Expelled:

Ben Stein Watch, Expelled Edition

--------------
I wouldn't be bothered reading about the selfish gene because it has never been identified. -- Denyse O'Leary, professional moron
Again "how much". I don't think that's a good way to be quantitative.-- gpuccio

  
charlie d



Posts: 56
Joined: Oct. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,06:53   

dydimos:
what you have as "actin network" in your comparison above looks to me like chromatin in the case of Expelled (DNA wrapped around histones). Either that, or they have no idea what actin looks like.

  
didymos



Posts: 1828
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,07:06   

Quote (charlie d @ April 15 2008,04:53)
dydimos:
what you have as "actin network" in your comparison above looks to me like chromatin in the case of Expelled (DNA wrapped around histones). Either that, or they have no idea what actin looks like.

Yeah, I forgot to add a caveat to that one as well.  I'm not entirely sure what that's supposed to represent, I just thought it might be their version of the actin network stuff in "Inner Life".

--------------
I wouldn't be bothered reading about the selfish gene because it has never been identified. -- Denyse O'Leary, professional moron
Again "how much". I don't think that's a good way to be quantitative.-- gpuccio

  
Maya



Posts: 702
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,07:07   

Quote (Dr.GH @ April 15 2008,00:33)
riff on Maya,

There was a screenwriter named Miller,
who thought he'd create the next thriller,
with Nazis and fraud
he is a lying sod
who traded Darwin for Hitler

Evolve it, baby!   :D

  
didymos



Posts: 1828
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,07:33   

Yeah, charlie, I think you're right on that.  I just rewatched the Expelled stuff, and I'd missed a really quick transition through a nuclear pore.

--------------
I wouldn't be bothered reading about the selfish gene because it has never been identified. -- Denyse O'Leary, professional moron
Again "how much". I don't think that's a good way to be quantitative.-- gpuccio

  
JonF



Posts: 632
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,07:43   

Quote (didymos @ April 15 2008,02:58)
Fun with screencaps. "Inner Life of A Cell" is on the left, and "Expelled" is on the right.

Humph. I'd have to say it's not a slam-dunk for plagiarism. Similar, yeah, but plagiarized? It'd take some argument to convince me.

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,08:02   

Quote (Ftk @ April 15 2008,07:44)
This is what you guys consider plagerism?

My goodness you're some desperate folks.

Look who's escaped from the BW wall.

So, FTK, do you think that Jesus would approve of this?

Could I make a new character called Plicky Mouse, make him look exactly like "Mickey" apart from the colour of his jacket and you'd still approve? You would not consider that "plagerism"? Just copying something, changing the colors and textures a bit is a-ok?

FTK, do you think that there is a body of research that was used to generate the expelled version? If there is no such research (and this will come out if it gets to court) and they end up admitting that it's a wholesale copy and that there was no actual research done beyond viewing the "original" , will you still approve?

If it gets to court and expelled is found guilty will that just be another case of the evilutioninsts conspiracy controlling the court system?

And FTK, it's not "our" opinion about it that matters, It's the creators of the original animation and the Judge whose opinions will "count" in this.

See your lot in court, I very much hope.

  
didymos



Posts: 1828
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,08:03   

Quote (Ftk @ April 15 2008,05:44)
This is what you guys consider plagerism?

My goodness you're some desperate folks.

I'll be more clear.  I don't think my post makes the case for total plagiarism. It wasn't supposed to.  I just posted images of corresponding processes/structures, at least as best as I could determine.  A couple are quite obviously copied, others not so much, just as obviously.  Yeah, I threw in a snarky remark about plagiarism at the end.  Sue me.

--------------
I wouldn't be bothered reading about the selfish gene because it has never been identified. -- Denyse O'Leary, professional moron
Again "how much". I don't think that's a good way to be quantitative.-- gpuccio

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,08:04   

Quote (didymos @ April 15 2008,08:03)
Quote (Ftk @ April 15 2008,05:44)
This is what you guys consider plagerism?

My goodness you're some desperate folks.

I'll be more clear.  I don't think my post makes the case for total plagiarism. It wasn't supposed to.  I just posted images of corresponding processes/structures, at least as best as I could determine.  A couple are quite obviously copied, others not so much, just as obviously.  Yeah, I threw in a snarky remark about plagiarism at the end.  Sue me.

There's little point using facts to educate FTK. She is immune.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugers work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
olegt



Posts: 1405
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,08:25   

Quote (Ftk @ April 15 2008,07:44)
This is what you guys consider plagerism?

My goodness you're some desperate folks.

The devil is in detail, FtK. You need to dig a bit deeper into it to understand the allegations of plagiarism. ERV plans a series of posts on the subject, here is the first one.

In a nutshell, if Inner Life of a Cell were a realistic depiction of intracellular processes, sort of a documentary film, then there would be no case here because any other animation made from scratch would look pretty much the same. It turns out that the animation is a cartoon and, starting from scratch, different cartoonists would come up with very dissimilar videos.

However, if you actually peered inside a cell, you wouldn't see those pretty pictures. The processes are rather chaotic. The walker looks like a drunken sailor stepping back and forth and only slowly drifting in the right direction. Chemicals don't stick immediately to their intended locations, instead bouncing around multiple times and only occasionally getting into place. Lots of stuff floats around obstructing the view. An animator thus must focus on a few objects and processes of cellular life and discard lots of other things. It seems like the makers of the animation in Expelled have made exactly the same choices as the guys at xvivo. That's why the analogy is not two documentaries faithfully portraying the same subject but rather two Mickey Mouse cartoons in which Mickey wears different pairs of shorts.

--------------
If you are not:
Galapagos Finch
please Logout

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,08:32   

Now things are perhaps a bit clearer FTK I'll lay it out for you in a way you can understand.

a) Expelled did their own independent research and did not reference the xvivo animation at all. It just looks alot like the Harvard version as the same processes are depicted.

b) Expelled did not do any research at all and simply used the xvivo version as a template and copied substantially from it.

FTK, would you agree that option A is acceptable and option B is unacceptable?

It's important because you might well have the chance to be proved right/wrong in court!

FTK I note you've just posted this message at UD  
Quote


This is definitely not a case of plagiarism.

Check out AtBCs comparisons of the two cells.

They dont have a leg to stand on.
Link

Is this your opinion as a copyright lawyer? Or soccer-mom?

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gaugers work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,08:35   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ April 15 2008,09:02)
Quote (Ftk @ April 15 2008,07:44)
This is what you guys consider plagerism?

My goodness you're some desperate folks.

Look who's escaped from the BW wall.

Minor hiccup.  Corrected shortly.



Miner hiccup?

Quote
Tower Colliery, by trelewis


Edited by Lou FCD on April 15 2008,09:40

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,08:46   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ April 15 2008,08:32)
FTK I note you've just posted this message at UD      
Quote


This is definitely not a case of plagiarism.

Check out AtBCs comparisons of the two cells.

They dont have a leg to stand on.
Link

Is this your opinion as a copyright lawyer? Or soccer-mom?

How come she can spell plagiarism correctly for those bozos and can't spell it correctly over here?

Or do you think this is evidence that she learns things over here, even though she'd never admit it?

This seems like a task for the Nixplanatory Filter. Tell Sal to dust it off and get busy.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
- Pattiann Rogers

   
Reginald Beasley



Posts: 31
Joined: April 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,10:18   

Quote (didymos @ April 15 2008,07:06)
Quote (charlie d @ April 15 2008,04:53)
dydimos:
what you have as "actin network" in your comparison above looks to me like chromatin in the case of Expelled (DNA wrapped around histones). Either that, or they have no idea what actin looks like.

Yeah, I forgot to add a caveat to that one as well. I'm not entirely sure what that's supposed to represent, I just thought it might be their version of the actin network stuff in "Inner Life".

That vesicle bit is huuuuuuuuuuuuge. It's such a tiny specialised part of the cell and the copy is so incredibly blatant that any copyright lawyer worth his weight will harp on it over and over.

Hell, infringement cases have been won on much less.

And if Motive attempts to say "Well, cells are all pretty much the same, that's just the way that it would have happened no matter what," they will have to present their original research to the judge. If they tell him they don't have any, as I suspect they would have to, they're in wayyyy deep.

Also, a little advice to the UD folks, you're associated with people that are being sued (even if you think no one can tell you're associated, don't worry, courts have a funny way of finding out where money comes from) so try shutting the hell up. A lawyer who got his degree from a matchbook should be able to tell you that much.

  
charlie d



Posts: 56
Joined: Oct. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,10:21   

I think it's quite obvious that there is sufficiently close resemblance between the Expelled and XVIVO animations for a copyright infringement case to proceed, if XVIVO and/or Harvard decide to sue after the movie comes out.   That of course assumes that the Expelled producers will not argue some exception like "fair use" or minor use, etc, or the judge will reject such arguments.  I am not sure the Expelled producers would do that though, since those arguments would belie their current claim that the animations are original, and while their actions would be legal, it would be pretty much an admission of plagiarism - copying someone else's work without attribution.  Thus they may end up in the clear financially, but with rather rotten eggs on their faces ethically.

If the case goes to court, the process of discovery will easily do the rest: if the Expelled animations were worked out from scientific scratch, there will be, necessarily, tons of evidence for it.  There will be notes and e-mails of discussions between animators and actual biologists, the biologists' own notes, the evidence of 3D modeling from existing protein structures and cell microscopy (e.g. confocal, SEM and TE) data in the literature and databases, and so on.  If not, not.

At this stage, any firm conclusion from any of us is premature.  All we know is that the Expelled people say their animators' work is original, while the XVIVO people have reason to believe it can't be, and the Expelled animators must have copied "Inner life" (whether or not under specific instructions from the producers also remains to be seen, if and when responsibility and damages are assessed).  

That's it, so we can all just chill out.  I suspect we will know soon enough.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5402
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,10:35   

Maybe they could claim it was a

P-A-R-O-D-Y

or not.

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,10:36   

Quote (charlie d @ Posted on April 15 2008,10:21 )
There will be notes and e-mails of discussions between animators and actual biologists, the biologists' own notes, the evidence of 3D modeling from existing protein structures and cell microscopy (e.g. confocal, SEM and TE) data in the literature and databases, and so on.

Did biologists in general even worked on Expelled?

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10758
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,10:40   

http://www.comingsoon.net/news/weekendwarriornews.php?id=44099


Quote
Lack of awareness might be the killer for the Ben Stein documentary Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed (Rocky Mountain Pictures) which takes a controversial look at the thought of Intelligent Design and how the scientific community has accused those who bring it up as being religious creationists. Fortunately, fundamentalist religious groups will get fully behind the movie, possibly for the wrong reasons, with heavy promotions through churches, although a documentary will probably be a harder sell than some of the other movies those groups have flocked to. Expect it to end up outside the top 10 with roughly $1.5 million, more or less.


--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
charlie d



Posts: 56
Joined: Oct. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,10:42   

Quote (Assassinator @ April 15 2008,10:36)
Did biologists in general even worked on Expelled?

Not sure what you mean.  Sternberg and Crocker are biologists of course, although I don't know if they had any role in the movie other than being interviewed while looking soulful and aggrieved.  But IIRC Kevin Miller claimed at one point that they had a "team of cell biologists" hard at work on the animations, so there must be at least 2.

  
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,10:46   

The new expelled exposed site is a fantastic improvement.  Bravo to whomever is working on it.

--------------
Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10758
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,10:52   

From the makers of "Where's Wally?"

http://www.thebricktestament.com/king_da....1a.html

"Where's Darwin?"

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
ERV



Posts: 329
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,11:42   

Quote (charlie d @ April 15 2008,10:42)
Quote (Assassinator @ April 15 2008,10:36)
Did biologists in general even worked on Expelled?

Not sure what you mean.  Sternberg and Crocker are biologists of course, although I don't know if they had any role in the movie other than being interviewed while looking soulful and aggrieved.  But IIRC Kevin Miller claimed at one point that they had a "team of cell biologists" hard at work on the animations, so there must be at least 2.

He also made that statement before Billy D screamed 'LEEEEEROOOOOY JENKINS!' and admitted they just stole the fucking thing.

Any references to 'cell biologist(s)' were a lie.  OOOH LOOK!  A LYING FUNDIE CHRISTIAN!  Ooooh put that man in a museum-- hes rare, that Kevin.

Piece of shit.

  
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,11:58   

ERV, I LOVE it when you talk dirty :-)

--------------
Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
improvius



Posts: 807
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,12:34   

Quote (ERV @ April 15 2008,12:42)
Any references to 'cell biologist(s)' were a lie.  OOOH LOOK!  A LYING FUNDIE CHRISTIAN!  Ooooh put that man in a museum-- hes rare, that Kevin.

Piece of shit.

I still can't tell if Kevin is a lying sack of shit himself, or if he's just swallowing hook, line, and sinker everything that Mathis has been telling him.  Certainly, Mathis can't seem to open his mouth without lying.  And I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that one of his lies was "don't worry, guys, I checked with the lawyers and it's perfectly legal for us to copy this animation."

--------------
Quote (afdave @ Oct. 02 2006,18:37)
Many Jews were in comfortable oblivion about Hitler ... until it was too late.
Many scientists will persist in comfortable oblivion about their Creator ... until it is too late.

  
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,12:59   

Aw, I wouldn't put it past them if they thought that this pre-screening controversy would help them, as the pre-screening "controversy" about anti-Semitism seemed to help Passion of the Christ.

Except I'm not sure I'd credit this bunch with that much planning. A little too convenient.

We'll see what happens. (Bleh, after this weekend it's all over. Good.)

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Maya



Posts: 702
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2008,13:05   

Quote (Mr_Christopher @ April 15 2008,11:58)
ERV, I LOVE it when you talk dirty :-)

ERV should, of course, express herself as she wishes, but there is still latent bias against women in most industries, so she does us a disservice.  We have to live up to the same standards as men.  How often do we hear that kind of language from our generally larger, hairier colleagues?

Oh.  Wait.  Never fucking mind.

  
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