RSS 2.0 Feed

» Welcome Guest Log In :: Register

Pages: (17) < ... 12 13 14 15 16 [17] >   
  Topic: Otangelo's thread< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Otangelo



Posts: 148
Joined: Oct. 2015

(Permalink) Posted: May 24 2016,10:23   

Quote (OgreMkV @ May 23 2016,22:25)
It's called support structures. You can, during construction, even see the remnants of those structures in the house. Once those 2x4s that hold the first wall up aren't needed anymore, the builders remove them.


If you go by a house with all the walls up, you might see some cut off 2x4s in weird places and a bunch of nails that don't seem to be doing anything.

But if you were present a little earlier, you would have seen those nails holding a 2x4 to the wall to support the wall while other walls were being built.

So, there are steps to the construction of those otherwise irreducibly complex houses. Yes, if you take 3 of the 4 walls way, that last wall will fall over. But there was other stuff present before that we don't see now.

Same thing with cells and anything else that could be claimed to be irreducibly complex. We only see what the things look like now. We don't see their 3 billion years of genetic history and we sure don't see the structures that were there, but not there now.

You don't need poof. Well, ID and creationism does, you just need support. And the best part is, there's significant evidence that those supports don't have to be a functionally positive system to work. Indeed, some are actually negative, but they were sufficiently non-harmful to stay in the population and provide the scaffolding for future evolution.

I can provide evidence of that in a paper. Would you like to see it?

Of course not. You've been doing this to long to even consider the fact that you might be wrong.

Oh well.

IC doesn't mean "not evolved".

It means precisely that. BY DEFINITION. If its ic, it did not evolve. if it evolved, its not ic. simple as that.

Michael Behe's "Evolutionary" Definition — "An irreducibly complex evolutionary pathway is one that contains one or more unselected steps (that is, one or more necessary-but-unselected mutations).  The degree of irreducible complexity is the number of unselected steps in the pathway."  (A Response to Critics of Darwin's Black Box, 2002)

" An irreducibly complex system cannot be produced gradually by slight, successive modifications of a precursor system, since any precursor to an irreducibly complex system is by definition nonfunctional. Since natural selection requires a function to select, an irreducibly complex biological system, if there is such a thing, would have to arise as an integrated unit for natural selection to have anything to act on. It is almost universally conceded that such a sudden event would be irreconcilable with the gradualism Darwin envisioned."


In the quote above, Behe notes that there is a fundamental quality of any irreducibly complex system in that, "any precursor to an irreducibly complex system that is missing a part is by definition nonfunctional.” Behe elaborates upon this definition saying  "An irreducibly complex evolutionary pathway is one that contains one or more unselected steps (that is, one or more necessary-but-unselected mutations). The degree of irreducible complexity is the number of unselected steps in the pathway."

Yet, we see millions of houses and we know they are built. How is it possible?

Because intelligent people build them. Nice example of intelligent design. lol.

It's called support structures. You can, during construction, even see the remnants of those structures in the house. Once those 2x4s that hold the first wall up aren't needed anymore, the builders remove them.

So what ? Biological systems produce feedback mechanisms, repair proteins, check mechanisms, production lines through proteins, to make other proteins, that do not have any function, unless fully setup and mounted in the biological machine. So why would evolution produce them in the first place ?

Same thing with cells and anything else that could be claimed to be irreducibly complex. We only see what the things look like now. We don't see their 3 billion years of genetic history

We know the oxygen photosynthesis pathway is today as it was supposedly 2,5 bio years ago. It did not change. Nor are there precursors known. And if you remove any of its protein parts, it ceases to function.....

  
NoName



Posts: 2721
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: May 24 2016,12:07   

Is the designer irreducibly complex?  Infinite regress.
Is the designer not irreducibly complex?  Then we know irreducible complexity can be created by non-IC entities.

It's really not hard to figure out.
You've shown no reason why the laws of chemistry and physics do not suffice.  Well, other than your own ignorance, prejudicial assumptions, and personal incredulity.  Forgive us if we don't find those compelling.

  
Cubist



Posts: 490
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 24 2016,18:32   

Quote (Otangelo @ May 23 2016,19:56)
   
Quote (Cubist @ May 23 2016,17:12)
   
Quote (Otangelo @ May 23 2016,06:27)
     
Quote (Cubist @ May 23 2016,02:38)
So what? Did Behe identify any real, existing-in-at-least-one-contemporary-critter system which was produced by means of an "irreducibly complex pathway"?

There are many. A list of irreducible complex systems

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t2166-a....systems

You misread my question. It's one thing to say that a system is irreducibly complex; it's something else again to say that a system was produced by means of an irreducibly complex pathway. So I'ma ask my question again, with emphasis on the bit you overlooked or misinterpreted or some damn thing:

Did Behe identify any real, existing-in-at-least-one-contemporary-critter system which was produced by means of an "irreducibly complex pathway"?

And while you're in the mood to reply to questions, do feel free to explain what "new information" looks like.

I dont know about critters.

I know imho that certainly the biosynthesis pathway of chlorophyll and hemoglobin is ic.

You know that it is your opinion that "the biosynthesis pathway of chlorophyll and hemoglobin is ic", yes. But I didn't ask you about your opinion; rather, I asked you about Behe's opinion, as stated in the stuff Behe has written. I asked you about Behe's opinion because I wanted to see if you actually understood what Behe wrote. When you reply to a what does Behe think question with an I think answer—which is exactly what you just did here—your response is evidence to support the hypothesis that you don't read for comprehension so good.

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3654
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: May 24 2016,19:50   

Quote
IC doesn't mean "not evolved".

It means precisely that. BY DEFINITION. If its ic, it did not evolve. if it evolved, its not ic. simple as that.


I think you made a mistake in there somewhere.

IC doesn't mean "not evolved", but it means "not evolved".

Congratulations. Instead of evidence or actual association with reality, you have changed the definitions to suit your argument.

Whatever.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
OgreMkV



Posts: 3654
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: May 24 2016,19:59   

You don't get it and I understand that. You can't conceive of anything that you think disrupts your world view. I'm sorry that you cannot be taught.

Fact is, the evolution of those mechanisms you mention is well documented. You disagree, but you never bother to read the evidence. Heck, even Behe disagrees with you. But you're much smarter than he is about biochemistry.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Otangelo



Posts: 148
Joined: Oct. 2015

(Permalink) Posted: May 25 2016,10:50   

Quote (OgreMkV @ May 24 2016,19:59)
Heck, even Behe disagrees with you.

Does he ? How so ?

  
NoName



Posts: 2721
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: May 25 2016,13:34   

Quote (Otangelo @ May 25 2016,11:50)
Quote (OgreMkV @ May 24 2016,19:59)
Heck, even Behe disagrees with you.

Does he ? How so ?

The relevant material, with explanation, is present on the previous page of this thread.
Do you not even read your critics?

  
Otangelo



Posts: 148
Joined: Oct. 2015

(Permalink) Posted: May 26 2016,15:03   

Centriole biogenesis, and the duplication cycle, amazing evidence of design

The  duplication of eukaryotic cells is a all fine-tuned biochemical processes that depends on the precise structural arrangement of the cellular components. Mitotic cell division is the most fundamental task of all living cells. Cells have intricate and tightly regulated machinery to ensure that mitosis occurs with appropriate frequency and high fidelity.

The only way to make a new cell is to duplicate a cell that already exists. A cell reproduces by performing an orderly sequence of events in which it duplicates its contents and then divides in two.  This cycle of duplication and division, known as the cell cycle, is the essential mechanism by which all living things reproduce. Dividing cells must coordinate their growth. A complex network of regulatory proteins  trigger the different events of the cycle.

During the cell cylce, eighteen different regulators are required, which order and coordinate the process. Each of these regulators are absolutely essential. If one is missing, the cell cycle is not completed and, the cell cannot duplicate.  Any of these regulators have only use if fully integrated in the process. They have no use or function by themself. This makes  replication a irreducible , interdependent process.

Centrosomes play a key role in organizing the microtubule network of the cell, most notably the mitotic spindle during cell division .

The choreography of microtubules, centrosomes and chromosomes during mitosis and meiosis is beautifully designed, and uses finely regulated and synchronized movements.

The centrosome is a structure, consisting of a pair of cylindrical microtubule-based organelles called centrioles , embedded in an amorphous network of proteins known collectively as Pericentriolar Material (PCM). Microtubules (MTs) originate from the PCM.  The PCM comprises a porous structural scaffold onto which γ-tubulin and other soluble components from the cytoplasm are loaded. Centrosome growth is an aggregation process of a condensed phase of PCM components, which segregate from the cytosol. The aggregation process leads to a centrosome phase that coexists with the cytosol and does rearrange internally. This implies that the centrosome phase is viscoelastic, such that on long timescales it behaves as a liquid-like material.

Cep192 is a pericentriolar protein that accumulates at centrosomes during mitosis and is required for PCM recruitment, centriole duplication, microtubule nucleation, and centrosome maturation.

Centrioles are among the most beautiful of biological structures. How their highly conserved nine-fold symmetry is generated is a question that has intrigued cell biologists for decades.
Centrioles are present in all eukaryotic species that form cilia and flagella, but are absent from higher plants and higher fungi which do not have cilia.
It seems likely that they have  the primary purpose of growing cilia and flagella, which are important sensory and motile organelles found in almost all cells of the human body.  These organelles have many important functions in cells, and their dysfunction has been linked to a plethora of human pathologies, ranging from cancer to microcephaly to obesity.  Great progress has been made recently in understanding how these proteins interact and how these interactions are regulated to ensure that a new centriole is only formed at the right place and at the right time.

Centriole biogenesis requires thirteen essential molecules. If any of these molecules is missing, centrioles cannot be made.

Centriole assembly is also tightly regulated and abnormalities in this process can lead to developmental defects and cancer. Initiation of centriole duplication is under tight regulation to ensure the control of centriole number. Presumably in centriole initiation, there is some form of cooperativity or positive feedback that results in asymmetric accumulation of the relevant proteins in a symmetric background.

So we have not only the requirement of eighteen proteins required for cell cycle regulation, but also thirteen essential molecules for centriole biogenesis, which by itself is also tighthly regulated, requiring positive feedback.

It appears at the initial stage of the centriole assembly process as the first ninefold symmetrical structure. The cartwheel was first described more than 50 years ago, but it is only recently that its pivotal role in establishing the ninefold symmetry of the centriole was demonstrated.  This is a highly ordered structure that really stands out from the background. Constructed of rod-like microtubules, most centrioles have a nine-fold pattern, nine triplets or doublets evenly spaced at the rim, giving it a "cartwheel" appearance in cross-section.

The comparison to a human made cartwheel is evident, and so that it is intelligently designed. Obviously, the question arises, how could all this emerge gradually ?

Another amazing fact is that Electromagnetics play an important role in cell functioning and especially in cell duplication and division (mitosis).

Recent development in the field of quantum biology highlights that the intracellular electromagnetic field (EMF) of microtubules plays an important role in many fundamental cellular processes such as mitosis. It is an intriguing hypothesis that centrosome functions as molecular dynamo to generate electric flow over the microtubules, leading to the electric excitation of microtubule EMF that is required for spindle body microtubule self-assembly. With the help of motors proteins within the centrosome, centrosome transforms the energy from ATP into intracellular EMF in the living cell that shapes the functions of microtubules. There will be a general impact for the cell biology field to understand the mechanistic function of centrosome for the first time in correlation with its structural features.



The electromagnetic property of microtubule has been reported with both computation modelling and experimental evidences.

To transform the chemical energy in ATP into electric magnetic field within the living cell, cell needs to have a molecular dynamo to transform the mechanistic movement of protein complexes to directional movements of intracellular electrons, leading to the electric excitation of the spindle body microtubules as well as the M phase chromosomes, which is essential for mitosis

Taken together the longitudinal, or axial, vibration of the 13 filaments of an MT and then the 27 MTs making up the centriole barrel produce the electromagnetic field surrounding the centriole . Interestingly, this field is also found to be ferromagnetic. Also of interest, the fundamental vibration frequency of an MT filament is approximately 465 MHz, although this frequency is continually changing due to the ongoing length changing of the filaments. The electropolarity of the centrioles enables them to exert forces at a distance—that is, forces without physical contact.

All this cannot leave us asounded and v   indicates the requirement of forsight to produce all these ingenius mechanisms,and subsequently a intelligent designer.

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t2090-c....re#4871

  
NoName



Posts: 2721
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: May 26 2016,15:15   

Amazing misinterpretation and misunderstanding.

To say nothing of an amazing ability to pretend like all the takedowns of your bullshit and all the answers to your questions haven't been provided already.

Your personal incredulity is irrelevant.  And, sadly for you, it's really all you've got.

  
stevestory



Posts: 10269
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 26 2016,15:18   

Maybe this is an experiment. Maybe somebody at Google is testing the AI bot. They set it on "babbling idiot" mode and pipe the output into a comment here and see if we reject its Turing Testosity.

   
ChemiCat



Posts: 403
Joined: Nov. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2016,04:17   

Quote
The only way to make a new cell is to duplicate a cell that already exists. A cell reproduces by performing an orderly sequence of events in which it duplicates its contents and then divides in two.  This cycle of duplication and division, known as the cell cycle, is the essential mechanism by which all living things reproduce. Dividing cells must coordinate their growth. A complex network of regulatory proteins  trigger the different events of the cycle.


Stolen from here without reference;

NCBI

A dishonest creationist, who would have thought that!

  
  490 replies since Nov. 15 2015,11:01 < Next Oldest | Next Newest >  

Pages: (17) < ... 12 13 14 15 16 [17] >   


Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic

[ Read the Board Rules ] | [Useful Links] | [Evolving Designs]