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Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2007,22:34   

DLH = Slimey Sal.

What do I win?

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2007,22:44   

Re "The hypothesis might be true if modern organisms had recoverable front loading DNA, but even then it could have been caused by horizontal gene flow."

I'd think that with front loading, one would expect a much higher quantity of apparent horizontal transfer than would be expected without it.

Henry

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2007,23:12   

Quote
I'd think that with front loading, one would expect a much higher quantity of apparent horizontal transfer than would be expected without it.


Even if you grant the front-loading hypothesis in-principle testability, it still doesn't clear up any way to test such a proposition.  The predictions that the article seems to give (haven't read it, just saw this) aren't necessarily incongruent with the null hypothesis.  It will remain a slippery slope argument I think.  

Unless they want to invoke a young-earth and claim that there is not enough time for horizontal transfer to explain whatever it is they claim is evidence for frontloading, that is.   For, given an old earth, and common descent (including what we know about horizontal transfer in many taxa) they don't have a null hypothesis.  It encompasses the entire range of life on earth with DNA so this will be more hand-waving.

Unless they know something about Teh Designer that we don't, that is...  perhaps they know just how he frontloaded it?  Is it in genesis?

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2564
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2007,00:54   

Hmmm, this idea might be testable.  If front-loading occurred, then the genomes of the "lower" taxa would have been larger.  Earlier this year, Organ et al. had a paper published (not in Cell Cycle, in one of their feeder journals) which estimated genome size from cell size in bones:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v446/n7132/abs/nature05621.html
Organ, C.L., Shedlock, A.M., Meade, A., Pagel, M. and Edwards, S.V. (2007).  Origin of avian genome size and structure in non-avian dinosaurs.  Nature 446: 180-184.

[b]If[b] a similar relationship could be found in "lower" taxa, and [b]if[b] cells could be distinguished and their sizes measured from old (e.g. Cambrian) fossils, then one could test the prediction.

If one found that "lower" taxa had more DNA, then one only has to get round the problem of mutation degrading the genome.

Bob

--------------
It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Alan Fox



Posts: 1556
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2007,03:56   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 09 2007,17:34)
DLH = Slimey Sal.

What do I win?

Evidence?

David L. Hagen can match Sal for sliminess, and he is also rather pompous. (I may have already mentioned this.)

  
djmullen



Posts: 327
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2007,04:22   

Quote (J-Dog @ Sep. 07 2007,08:02)
 
Quote (djmullen @ Sep. 07 2007,01:27)
If Dembski has a mild case of AS, that would explain a lot about him.


Is this a typo? ?Doesn't it make more sense to make that If Dembski has a wild case of AS, that would explain a lot about him?

But seriously, good catch and diagnosis - so, how are we coming along on the cure? ?And is DaveScot part of the problem, or part of the cure?

We'll know more about Dave's prognosis after the 30 gallon enema therapy.

  
djmullen



Posts: 327
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2007,05:00   

"Salvador" Cordova:

"I'm listed at Hopkins under the last name 'Cordova', but you'll see me under my birth name, not under 'Salvador'."

So what is Mr. Cordova's real first name?

My guess?  L. Ron Cordova.

Anybody else got an idea?

Link

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2007,06:08   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Sep. 09 2007,23:12)
 
Quote
I'd think that with front loading, one would expect a much higher quantity of apparent horizontal transfer than would be expected without it.


Even if you grant the front-loading hypothesis in-principle testability, it still doesn't clear up any way to test such a proposition.  The predictions that the article seems to give (haven't read it, just saw this) aren't necessarily incongruent with the null hypothesis.  It will remain a slippery slope argument I think.  

Unless they want to invoke a young-earth and claim that there is not enough time for horizontal transfer to explain whatever it is they claim is evidence for frontloading, that is.   For, given an old earth, and common descent (including what we know about horizontal transfer in many taxa) they don't have a null hypothesis.  It encompasses the entire range of life on earth with DNA so this will be more hand-waving.

Unless they know something about Teh Designer that we don't, that is...  perhaps they know just how he frontloaded it?  Is it in genesis?

Good point. What exactly is the argument predicting that teh Designer would front-load genomes, other than a young-earth viewpoint?

The OBSERVATION of possible front-loading has certainly been seized upon by IDiots as being consistent with their inferences, but that means nothing. Every observation is consistent with those vague inferences. If we found an organism whose genetic code consisted of cheesy-poofs, it would be consistent... Who knows how the designer works, or thinks?  So how is it possible to predict anything?

Seems to me that they would have a hard time explicating any cogent argument whereby their notion (an unknown designer acting by unknown mechanisms at an unknown time and place) leads to an explicit prediction of front-loading. This is yet another YEC-derived claim.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2007,06:11   

Quote (Henry J @ Sep. 09 2007,23:44)
Re "The hypothesis might be true if modern organisms had recoverable front loading DNA, but even then it could have been caused by horizontal gene flow."

I'd think that with front loading, one would expect a much higher quantity of apparent horizontal transfer than would be expected without it.

Henry

Fair use permits quotation for the purposes of discussion within a scientific audience:
 
Quote
Here I propose a hypothesis that answers the questions posed
above, and offers experimentally testable predictions. This hypoth-
esis postulates that (1) shortly (in geological terms) before Cambrian
period a Universal Genome that encodes all major developmental
programs essential for every phylum of Metazoa emerged in a unicel-
lular or a primitive multicellular organism; (2) The Metazoan phyla,
all having similar genomes, are nonetheless so distinct because they
utilize specific combinations of developmental programs. In other
words, in spite of a high similarity of the genomes in phyla X and
Y, an organism belonging to phylum X expresses a specific set of
active developmental programs, while an organism belonging to a
different phylum Y has a distinct set of “working” programs specific
for phyla Y….

There are two main testable predictions of the presented hypoth-
esis, which are absolutely critical for validation of the model:
(1) full or parts of the developmental programs characteristic to
higher taxons must be encoded in genomes of lower taxons, and
(2) blocks of genetic information encoding these developmental
programs in more primitive taxons must be useless in these taxons…

As a general approach to searching for such latent developmental
programs one can effectively utilize information from genome
projects. Accordingly, one may identify genes responsible for an
un-expressed developmental program in a genome of an organism
belonging to a lower taxon, and try to activate it. For example, as
mentioned above, the sea urchin genome encodes a large set of genes
involved in the eye development. It is possible that overproduction of
the active master switch Pax6 in sea urchin may initiate eye develop-
ment. Similarly, since major components of the adaptive immunity
are encoded in the sea urchin genome, one could attempt to activate
production of antibodies by experimenting with transcription factors
or teratogenes.

Another indication that latent developmental program is present
in a lower taxon would be expression of such a program in higher
taxons derived from the lower one in a seemingly convergent
processes. For example, a possible experiment would be to activate
development of circulation systems of mammalian or bird types in
lizards, or even in Xenopus. The circulation systems in mammals
and birds appear to be very similar, however, they developed from
the Reptilian system independently in these taxons. Therefore, it
seems likely that Reptilia possess the program of development of the
circulation system of the mammalian/bird type and requires only a
minor switch to activate it.

Of course, if it a developmental program for a given structure (such as a camera eye) could be activated within an organism that neither has eyes nor has ancestors that have camera eyes, THAT would be a major problem for contemporary evolutionary models.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2007,07:19   

Larry Half-Mad makes the following observation over at the "Expelled" blog
Quote
Wesley “Ding” Elsberry and Sleazy PZ Myers arbitrary censor comments and commenters on their blogs. They have no credibility.


If for a moment we accept that, we have "All those who censor comments on blogs have no credibility".

Yet Larry happily comments on UncommonDescent, who are proud of their censorship of opposing views!

Link

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Zachriel



Posts: 2723
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2007,07:20   

Quote
bornagain77: Who will lay odds that PZ doesn’t even know how to work on cars?

Well, that settles it then. PZ Myers doesn't know anything about evolutionary biology because he may not be able to replace a car's alternator. He has no scientific credibility whatsoever.



--------------

You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

   
k.e



Posts: 1948
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2007,08:03   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Sep. 10 2007,15:19)
Larry Half-Mad makes the following observation over at the "Expelled" blog
 
Quote
Wesley “Ding” Elsberry and Sleazy PZ Myers arbitrary censor comments and commenters on their blogs. They have no credibility.


If for a moment we accept that, we have "All those who censor comments on blogs have no credibility".

Yet Larry happily comments on UncommonDescent, who are proud of their censorship of opposing views!

Link

Don't forget Larry's own short lived blog where he was busier banning ppl left right and centre than a one armed Sydney taxi driver with crabs.

--------------
The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2007,08:18   

Quote (Zachriel @ Sep. 10 2007,08:20)
Quote
bornagain77: Who will lay odds that PZ doesn’t even know how to work on cars?

Well, that settles it then. PZ Myers doesn't know anything about evolutionary biology because he may not be able to replace a car's alternator. He has no scientific credibility whatsoever.


It's not just dense, it's UncommonlyDense.

   
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2007,08:25   

DS comes out and says it!
Quote
In all fairness to nbogard (who is now being moderated) anyone who thinks a design inference is warranted is in some sense a creationist. The argument I think hinges on conflating “creationist” with biblical creationist. One can be the former without being the latter.


According to DaveScot everybody at UD is a creationist!

Just not a "biblical" creationist! Creationist nonetheless!
Link

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2007,08:49   

Quote
bornagain77: Who will lay odds that PZ doesn’t even know how to work on cars?

And in other news, whaddaya wanna bet Eugenie Scott can't install drywall? Ho ho ho!

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2007,09:04   

I bet Richard Dawkins doesn't know the first damn thing about building a subfloor or pouring a slab.  Pffft.  Evilutionists think they know everything.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
k.e



Posts: 1948
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2007,09:13   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Sep. 10 2007,16:25)
DS comes out and says it!
 
Quote
In all fairness to nbogard (who is now being moderated) anyone who thinks a design inference is warranted is in some sense a creationist. The argument I think hinges on conflating “creationist” with biblical creationist. One can be the former without being the latter.


According to DaveScot everybody at UD is a creationist!

Just not a "biblical" creationist! Creationist nonetheless!
Link

So we have a non biblical god as the non biblical creator?

Now we are getting somewhere, Allahu Akbar min kulli shay!!!        ???? ????

Or maybe Amun Ra? Baal? Yaveh? Shiva?

I'M CONFUSED, I DON'T BELIEVE CAMEL FARMERS COULD HAVE KNOWN THE ALL POWERFUL ONE. HE'S TEXAN HOMOS!!! d.t.

--------------
The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2007,09:21   

Quote

And in other news, whaddaya wanna bet Eugenie Scott can't install drywall?


I wouldn't take that bet. Genie seems remarkably handy, given the couple of times she's helped us move places.


She does bake a scrumptious lemon pie.

Surely, that justifies everything she says about anthropology in UD-logic, right?

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2007,09:42   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Sep. 10 2007,09:21)
 
Quote

And in other news, whaddaya wanna bet Eugenie Scott can't install drywall?

I wouldn't take that bet. Genie seems remarkably handy, given the couple of times she's helped us move places.

She does bake a scrumptious lemon pie.

Surely, that justifies everything she says about anthropology in UD-logic, right?

*consults Table of Expertise in the Materialist Conspiracy Omnibus*

Nope, sorry.  Lemon pie only buys you credibility when it comes to Newtonian physics.  Now a killer key lime pie will get you both anthropology and organic chemistry. HTH.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2007,11:12   

Quote (Alan Fox @ Sep. 10 2007,03:56)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 09 2007,17:34)
DLH = Slimey Sal.

What do I win?

Evidence?

David L. Hagen can match Sal for sliminess, and he is also rather pompous. (I may have already mentioned this.)

Evidence? Sure.

Darwinian mechanisms can't explain it. (Perhaps)

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2564
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2007,11:25   

Quote (Zachriel @ Sep. 10 2007,07:20)
Quote
bornagain77: Who will lay odds that PZ doesn’t even know how to work on cars?

Well, that settles it then. PZ Myers doesn't know anything about evolutionary biology because he may not be able to replace a car's alternator. He has no scientific credibility whatsoever.


PZ even thinks that bits of cars reproduce, and he's teaching his students this.  I mean, how can you have a course in transmission genetics, when everyone knows that their inheritance is Lamarckian.

Bob

--------------
It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
heddle



Posts: 126
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2007,12:27   

Bob O’H,

LoL.

Hmm, that reminds me that I once helped a friend rebuild a manual transmission using parts from another transmission. As proof that such transmission genetics resulted in a loss of information, when we were done the gear pattern was no longer an ordered 1-2-3-4-R along the classic H arrangement, but something bizarre like 3-1-4-R-2, which made driving interesting. Anyhow, entropy definitely increased, thereby demonstrating that the SLoT leads only to devolution.

But I didn’t realize until now that the fact that I can work on cars (like any good NASCAR fan) also proves that I am a better scientist than PZ.

--------------
Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

  
C.J.O'Brien



Posts: 395
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2007,12:36   

Quote
This hypothesis postulates that (1) shortly (in geological terms) before Cambrian period a Universal Genome that encodes all major developmental programs essential for every phylum of Metazoa emerged in a unicellular or a primitive multicellular organism;

So what about the Ediacaran fauna? Was that a beta-test? And what about trace fossils, presumably made by bilateral, worm-like organisms, the oldest of which were made 1.1 billion YA? Is that "shortly" before the Cambrian (from ~545 million YA)?

 
Quote
(2)The Metazoan phyla, all having similar genomes, are nonetheless so distinct because they utilize specific combinations of developmental programs. In other words, in spite of a high similarity of the genomes in phyla X and Y, an organism belonging to phylum X expresses a specific set of active developmental programs, while an organism belonging to a different phylum Y has a distinct set of  “working” programs specific for phyla Y…

This is pretty mushy. First, where do plants and fungi fit into all of this? Sure, everybody loves animals. They're where the evolutionary action is. But are the authors claiming here that plants, animals, and fungi all have "similar" genomes? In all, I detect some very outmoded taxonomic thinking here masquerading as a serious hypothesis.
Beyond that, what possible mechanism is there for conserving all these "useless" sequences until such time as they have a function?

Quote
There are two main testable predictions of the presented hypothesis, which are absolutely critical for validation of the model: (1) full or parts of the developmental programs characteristic to
higher taxons must be encoded in genomes of lower taxons, and (2) blocks of genetic information encoding these developmental programs in more primitive taxons must be useless in these taxons…

"Higher" and "lower"? If, by "lower," they mean this supposed "unicellular or a primitive multicellular organism" which is undoubtedly extinct, how in Falwell do they think they can test this? If they don't mean an extinct organism, then how is this not circular?

Frontloading presents more problems for creationism than it solves.

--------------
The is the beauty of being me- anything that any man does I can understand.
--Joe G

  
k.e



Posts: 1948
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2007,12:49   

Quote (heddle @ Sep. 10 2007,20:27)
Bob O’H,

LoL.

Hmm, that reminds me that I once helped a friend rebuild a manual transmission using parts from another transmission. As proof that such transmission genetics resulted in a loss of information, when we were done the gear pattern was no longer an ordered 1-2-3-4-R along the classic H arrangement, but something bizarre like 3-1-4-R-2, which made driving interesting. Anyhow, entropy definitely increased, thereby demonstrating that the SLoT leads only to devolution.

But I didn’t realize until now that the fact that I can work on cars (like any good NASCAR fan) also proves that I am a better scientist than PZ.

Fttt anyone can do that. I once rebuilt a VW beetle gearbox and got 4 reverse gears and 1 forward gear. (Later I found out the diff. can be put in upside down and still work. And that pratically every apprentice VW mechanic had driven into a worksop wall much to the amusement of the older hands.)

So that was definitely more information required at the time of assemby to say the least.

BTW if that is how good a mechanic you are, should  science check to see if it is going slower with you driving?

--------------
The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
Bob O'H



Posts: 2564
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2007,13:13   

Kindly remove your ironymeters from the room.

Done it?  Good.  On the But PZ Myers is still evil post, DLH gives us the following.  The emphasis is mine.
Quote
True science is an application of:
* “As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.” Pvbs 27:17;
* “. . . to search out a matter is the glory of kings.” Pvbs 25:2; and
* “. . . rebuke a wise man and he will love you.” Pvbs 9:8b.

Love you?  Is that why they read the marriage bans in church?

Bob

--------------
It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2007,13:18   

Quote (k.e @ Sep. 10 2007,12:49)
Fttt anyone can do that. I once rebuilt a VW beetle gearbox and got 4 reverse gears and 1 forward gear.

Pfff. French tanks come with 4 reverse gears out of the box. They're for expedited withdrawing.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2007,13:21   

DaveTard:

http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....-136660

Quote
16

DaveScot

09/10/2007

1:17 pm
Bob

An obvious question arises - why doesn’t an organism degrade before its terminal point?

Observation has revealed great variation in the level of protection and repair of genetic code both from one organism to the next and from one stretch of code to the next in the same organism. From an engineering perspective it’s trivial to protect some memory regions better than others. It’s all a matter of how much protection you need and how much overhead you’re willing to use to protect it. Code that needs to be maintained without error for geologic timespans gets better error detection/correction applied to it.


Quick, to the informatics lab, Tardman!
We should be able to see this extra, targeted protection, then...?

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2564
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2007,13:28   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 10 2007,13:18)
Quote (k.e @ Sep. 10 2007,12:49)
Fttt anyone can do that. I once rebuilt a VW beetle gearbox and got 4 reverse gears and 1 forward gear.

Pfff. French tanks come with 4 reverse gears out of the box. They're for expedited withdrawing.

Yeah, but at least they didn't only have armour fitted on the rear. like the Italian tanks.

There aren't any Italians reading this, are there?

Bob

--------------
It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2007,13:30   

Quote (Bob O'H @ Sep. 10 2007,13:28)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 10 2007,13:18)
Quote (k.e @ Sep. 10 2007,12:49)
Fttt anyone can do that. I once rebuilt a VW beetle gearbox and got 4 reverse gears and 1 forward gear.

Pfff. French tanks come with 4 reverse gears out of the box. They're for expedited withdrawing.

Yeah, but at least they didn't only have armour fitted on the rear. like the Italian tanks.

There aren't any Italians reading this, are there?

Bob

There's French people reading this and that didn't stop Richard.  ???

BELGIANS! That's the ticket! There's none of THEM reading this, is there?

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2007,13:31   

Quote
It’s all a matter of how much protection you need and how much overhead you’re willing to use to protect it


When DS explains it like that
it's like a revelation, the scales fall from my eyes and I wonder why we're not all toiling under Dictator DaveTards mighty hand.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
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