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oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 21 2012,03:39   

Quote (Ftk @ June 20 2012,19:54)
I'm asking tons of people, and since you all consider yourselves so highly educated, I thought you might be able to throw me some advise.

Even when asking for help you can't help yourself can you?

In the years I've been hanging around here I don't think I've ever heard somebody say "well, because I'm so educated..."

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1692
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: June 21 2012,04:47   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ June 21 2012,10:39)
Quote (Ftk @ June 20 2012,19:54)
I'm asking tons of people, and since you all consider yourselves so highly educated, I thought you might be able to throw me some advise.

Even when asking for help you can't help yourself can you?

In the years I've been hanging around here I don't think I've ever heard somebody say "well, because I'm so educated..."

It is a bit irritating that FTK needs to snark constantly.

But if one of her kids is in trouble and she needs help, it would be a no-brainer (for me at least) to provide such help if it was in my capacity.

Sorry FTK, I'm one of the dumb ones and can't help you there. Ogre and Olegt are more qualified.

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"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 21 2012,04:56   

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ June 21 2012,04:47)
But if one of her kids is in trouble and she needs help, it would be a no-brainer (for me at least) to provide such help if it was in my capacity.

Perhaps the years of indoctrination are finally coming home to roost.

What's wrong with a good bible bashing university I ask you?

Science taught from a good moral Christian perspective, nuttin wrong with that, after all it's "for the kids".

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: June 21 2012,07:30   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ June 21 2012,04:56)
Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ June 21 2012,04:47)
But if one of her kids is in trouble and she needs help, it would be a no-brainer (for me at least) to provide such help if it was in my capacity.

Perhaps the years of indoctrination are finally coming home to roost.

What's wrong with a good bible bashing university I ask you?

Science taught from a good moral Christian perspective, nuttin wrong with that, after all it's "for the kids".

Here's the thing, and I only bring this up because it's a child.

Accreditation is the major factor in any college choice.  The vast majority of colleges and universities have the same programs.  Some are better at engineering (Texas A&M) and some are much better at the liberal arts.  State colleges and universities are generally (MUCH) cheaper than private colleges and universities for roughly the same education.  The actual education all comes down to the professors anyway.  If the student searches out the easiest teachers, then they won't get nearly the education that they would if they search out the tougher instructors.

But, the key is accreditation... and it must be an regional accreditation agency of the US Education Department.  There are only a few and they are really simple to see.  

Middle States Association of Colleges and Schools
New England Association of Colleges and Schools
North Central...
North West...
Central...
Southern...

Having this accreditation from one of these guys is a big deal and it's not easy to get.  Therefore, it is prominently displayed in their catalog, brochures, and other recruiting literature.

You can also go to the websites of these associations and see what the status of these schools is according to them.  That's a big deal too.  Almost all state and local colleges will be fully accredited and be in good standing.  The website will note if the school has a warning or is not in good standing.  This is a big deal.

There's a school here in central Texas that is accredited, but they have been in trouble with the Southern Association for so long that even small universities will not accept a Bachelor's degree from them for admission to grad school.  Lots of kids go there, because it's an easy, party school.  But the school is pretty much blacklisted among university level educators and many businesses in central Texas also ignore graduates from that school.

Now, why did I bring this up, because the vast majority of private religious schools are not even accredited.  They simply don't meet the standards (14 different points ranging from record keeping to faculty to resources).  That's not to say they aren't good schools... they may be.  But they aren't accredited and that means probably no financial aid (including student loans) from the government.

And most graduate schools will not accept degrees from them.  

For example, my wife went to a school in San Francisco.  It really is an excellent private school and has been in existence for decades.  Some very famous people (in certain industries) have gone there.  But they only got their Western Association accreditation when my wife started there.  That was a big deal for the school and the students.  

So, here's your take away.  Not all colleges and schools are equal and if they don't say that they are accredited, then I would really suggest you look elsewhere for a quality education.

As far as guidance in terms of courses, majors, and the like... PM.

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Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

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Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 21 2012,08:32   

Thanks for the info to those who provided.  I'll pm a few of you.  It's more related to his skills/talents and the path he wants to take, but is hesitant for a variety of reasons.  I'll explain.  Thanks again.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
JonF



Posts: 634
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 21 2012,11:16   

Quote (Ftk @ June 20 2012,20:54)
I need to get in touch with a really good career/college counselor.

You might try talking to Mimi Doe, 781-530-708. She does training on how to get in, but she might be able to give you some help or pointers. See Application Boot Camp (that's Mimi on your right).

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 21 2012,13:03   

Is it too late to chime in that it would be a good idea to look at the projected job market?

Most degrees cost more than the projected payback. Of course money isn't everything if you have a strong interest in a particular career.

But sometimes an undecided person would be better off working a few years before going into debt for schooling that may not be used.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
utidjian



Posts: 185
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 21 2012,13:12   

FTK:

A few things: Everything that OgreMKV said about accreditation. It is especially important, at the undergraduate level, if your child decides to change schools as to whether the course work done at one school is acceptable at another.

What does your child really want to do? If it is something astronomy then there aren't many jobs in it and the pay isn't the greatest, but if that is his passion then... go with it. If it is engineering the money is pretty good but the courses are really tough. There is a pretty high attrition rate for engineering. In most any of the natural sciences his or her math needs to be pretty strong. Same with engineering.

Schools: Places like UC Berkeley (for example) have an excellent reputation as science and engineering schools, but that is mainly their graduate schools. For an undergrad UC Berkeley is a pretty brutal place to learn. Places like Stanford ($$$$$$) and MIT are much better because they simply care for undergrads better. Smaller 4 year "teaching colleges" or liberal arts colleges can be an excellent value both for the money and for the quality of education your child will receive.

I am not a professional counselor/adviser on colleges or career tracks but I may be able to help with some ideas/experience.

PM me if you want to discuss it further.

-DU-

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Being laughed at doesn't mean you're progressing along some line. It probably just means you're saying some stupid shit -stevestory

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 21 2012,13:56   

"Data scientist" is an under-served, high growth and well paid field I'd suggest if he has the inclination:

http://searchbusinessanalytics.techtarget.com/definit....ientist

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 21 2012,16:31   

OgreMkV and Tracy Hamilton were *extremely* helpful in pm, but I'll just throw what I wrote to them out here and any of you who have the inclination can chime in.  My son has read there responses, and is very pleased...has a few follow up questions I'll try get to Ogre later.

Here's the deal....


Here’s his dilemma....One centers around his career choice..the other is the financial situation.  Financially, I think we have done enough research, that we’re probably on the right track. He’s reading “How to go to college almost free”..Ben Kaplan.  Lots of interesting/helpful information in there.  His school counselors are very helpful on the topic as well.

Career choice is another matter.  He’s very gifted in the field of art, winning several awards in school and community (school of 1700 students), being requested by the school to design shirts and other things that come up.  He has a lot of engineers and artists on his Dad’s side...teachers on my side.  He’s working for a bronze sculptor this summer doing odds and ends around his studio, but has access to learning from his as well.

His LOVE is 3D animation/imaging.  He is obsessed with it, and already spends hours and hours and hours learning various graphics computer applications and designing things on his own.  He’d like a career in designing for computer games/programs/animation, etc.  BUT, he’s also aware that those jobs are extremely hard to come by, and he’s watched many people over the last few years not able to find jobs in the fields they went to college for due to the poor economy.  He’s also aware that art is the first field to suffer when the economy is poor.  

What he’d like is to find a way to work toward his goal, but have a back up plan.  That would mean he needs to have laid out for him other career paths that would use the skills he has so that he doesn’t have to give up his dream of working toward some sort of 3D imaging design path.  

He also needs to know what the best place to study would be.  We will certainly contact KState, KU, Washburn University here in Kansas to see which would offer the best path for what he’d like to do, but he’s worried that Kansas may not be the best place for this career path and that other school may provide something much better.  He has no idea how to find the right fit.  

Also, he’d really like to do this in a financially feasible way.  He’s been told by *many* people to attend a junior college near us that supposedly is very good at transferring to all major universities.  He could stay at home to save even more money that first year or two.  He’s worried he’ll miss out on something he wants to take early on, but as I’ve assured him, he can always take anything he wants or needs for his major when he moves on to a 4 year college to finish his degree.  

So, biggest item on his mind is finding as many fields as possible where he could use his skills so that he is more likely to be guaranteed a job when he graduates.  Where on earth do we get that kind of information?


====

Like I said...he has several things to think about after Ogre/Tracy responses, but if you have any other suggestions, have at it.

One thing I know he's still mulling over is how he could get in touch with some professionals in the field of 3D animation/imaging since he's leaning toward that path.

Someone who would be willing to take the time to give him some good advise about the field...the pay...other avenues other than animation where his skills might be of use that guarantee job openings and decent salary.  He's read a ton about it online, but still would love to contact some *real* people.   Ogre has given some good suggestions in this regard as well, but he'd still like to get with some people who are working in the field he's interested in.  He could just start calling places I guess, but not even sure where to start here in KS...he'd probably end up working out of state anyway.

Oh, and he just finished his junior year...so he's working on scholarships/financial apps this summer.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: June 21 2012,17:24   

If there's a local university nearby with an art/graphics department, he might start there.

I have cold called dozens of professors about various things and every one of them has been more than helpful.  Give them a call, ask about internships with companies, etc.

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Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1692
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: June 21 2012,17:38   

FTK:

Quote
Someone who would be willing to take the time to give him some good advise about the field...the pay...other avenues other than animation where his skills might be of use that guarantee job openings and decent salary.  He's read a ton about it online, but still would love to contact some *real* people.   Ogre has given some good suggestions in this regard as well, but he'd still like to get with some people who are working in the field he's interested in.  He could just start calling places I guess, but not even sure where to start here in KS...he'd probably end up working out of state anyway.


I sometimes do freelance work as a 3D artist. I specialize in camera and lighting, but also have a good background in scenery. If your kid needs tips or has questions about this, feel free to PM me. Despite what is usualy perceived, there is big money in the 3D industry (think architecture).

But that's the full extent of what I can help you with.


ETA: Spelling. "architecure" is not a real word.

Edited by Schroedinger's Dog on June 22 2012,00:43

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 21 2012,17:38   

Architects use 3-D animation all the time now, although off-shore competition is making 3-D animation a more difficult way to make a living.

But helping out at an architecture office might be a good way for him to get paid while learning more about the ins and outs of the field.  

Our local school has an Architecure/Graphics course - you could check into yours, but it might be too late since I would guess that his Sr year classes are already booked.

At one time I worked for an architecture office where the Principal also taught at a university, so that he might consider shopping around for an architect with a teaching background as a possible mentor.

Good luck, and keep reading.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1692
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: June 21 2012,18:30   

Well J-Dog, thankfuly, there are still people here who need on-site expertise for rendering and local scenery.

But I see your point. And apprenticeship is quite a good idea.

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"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 22 2012,00:42   

Quote (Ftk @ June 21 2012,14:31)
(snip)His LOVE is 3D animation/imaging.  He is obsessed with it, and already spends hours and hours and hours learning various graphics computer applications and designing things on his own.  He’d like a career in designing for computer games/programs/animation, etc.  BUT, he’s also aware that those jobs are extremely hard to come by, and he’s watched many people over the last few years not able to find jobs in the fields they went to college for due to the poor economy.  He’s also aware that art is the first field to suffer when the economy is poor.  
(snip)

My brother now does CG's for shows like "Eureka", and worked on "Poltergeist: Legacy" and stuff like that.

He got started by doing commercial design for local business' brochures. Long, boring hours and crappy pay.

Took a while, but talent and hard work won out in the end.

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"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
MichaelJ



Posts: 462
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: June 22 2012,01:03   

Personally I'd advise to go for the money - a mainstream IT course or something and keep his passion in his spare time.

I've hired a lot of IT people over the years and a college degree was valuable in so far as it proved that somebody could stick at something for 4-6 years. I would always hire somebody who had average grades but has automated his house with a Linux server over somebody who got high distinctions but his IT interest seems to stop once he left the office.

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 22 2012,04:06   

fundamentally your CV is what you can do. For visuals, it's even easier.

I'm currently in the process of creating an online portfolio of webapps - it's no good claiming to be able to do so without having something to back it up that people can see.

So, practice, practice practice.

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 22 2012,10:09   

Quote (MichaelJ @ June 22 2012,01:03)
Personally I'd advise to go for the money - a mainstream IT course or something and keep his passion in his spare time.

I've hired a lot of IT people over the years and a college degree was valuable in so far as it proved that somebody could stick at something for 4-6 years. I would always hire somebody who had average grades but has automated his house with a Linux server over somebody who got high distinctions but his IT interest seems to stop once he left the office.

I've kinda tried... ;)  He's at that age where he has a dream.  I'm living in reality where it doesn't usually come true, but I'm not going to put a damper on his dreams.

I'm hoping he'll go for a double major...have actually suggested IT many times...not a lot of interest atm.  Course, salary is currently his major concern about this route he's on.  He knows the pay isn't good.  It's why he's kinda freaking out atm.  

Thanks for the advise everyone.  Very helpful.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
csadams



Posts: 124
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 22 2012,10:12   

File this under the category of "WTF?"

Topeka (Kansas) currently has a great state school board representative, Carolyn Campbell.  She's being challenged this November by an ardent Fred Phelps supporter.  

Which one of these will Topekans FTK or Floyd Lee support?

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Stand Up For REAL Science!

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 22 2012,10:28   

I won't be voting, but if I were, this WBC guy has three strikes against him from my perspective.  

1.  WBC of course...couldn't possibly vote for a member of    their organization.
2.  If the media is correctly reporting, he's entering the race  due only to the issue of evolution.  Yeah, no interest in someone like that.  
3.  He doesn't even have children of his own.

So, you're safe with my non vote, cs.

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
csadams



Posts: 124
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 22 2012,10:35   

Meh, messin' with ya, FTK.  Tough to be in that district if you're anti-evolution!

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Stand Up For REAL Science!

  
Ftk



Posts: 2239
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 22 2012,10:38   

Ya think?  I'm not "anti-evolution".  But, you know that already.  Let's not quibble over ambiguous labels though, eh?

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"Evolution is a creationism and just as illogical [as] the other pantheistic creation myths"  -forastero

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 22 2012,12:16   

Quote (Ftk @ June 22 2012,10:38)
 I'm not "anti-evolution".  

well, you are not "pro-evolution" are you now? Does the fence chafe much?

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Dr. Jammer



Posts: 37
Joined: Feb. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: June 22 2012,14:32   

Are we still pretending that there's but a single definition of evolution, which is synonymous with Neo-Darwinism? Surely not.

The whole bait-and-switch definition game no longer works, fellas. Get some new trickery, please.

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Luskin destroys Talk Origins. | Dawkins runs scared. | Upright Biped scares off Moran

   
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: June 22 2012,14:39   

Quote (Dr. Jammer @ June 22 2012,14:32)
Are we still pretending that there's but a single definition of evolution, which is synonymous with Neo-Darwinism? Surely not.

The whole bait-and-switch definition game no longer works, fellas. Get some new trickery, please.

Go find every biology textbook you can and type of the definitions of evolution that you find.

Want to bet what you get?

Or, are you saying that because evolution is an observed fact AND a theory that describes the behavior of systems of reproducing organisms that we have multiple definitions of evolution?

Let me ask this, what is the one definition of ID?  Why does Behe say it mechanistic and Demsbki say that it isn't mechanistic?  Why do some people say that the designer did and does everything, while other say that the designer only designs things we aren't sure how came about?  Why do some say design only applies to life and others say it applies to everything, including the formation of the universe?

Why don't you go argue with your own side about what the real definition of ID is?

BTW: Even if you totally disprove evolution, right here, right now... it doesn't mean that ID is right.  Only positive supporting evidence can do that.  Got any?

edit to add this...

What do you make of this quote Jammer?

lastyearon goes for a Friday bannination.

Quote
Don’t feel too bad, Jerad. I think you are making a valiant effort to clarify things, to understand where you and UPB differ, to understand what exactly Intelligent Design means. But, you know what they say… "Never ask for clarification from a man whose soul depends on not being clear."


Edited by OgreMkV on June 22 2012,14:41

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Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: June 22 2012,15:03   

A short passage from one of my favorite science fiction authors.  While he wrote science fiction, much of what he wrote about was science fact, including this gem of wisdom.

Quote
Laura turned her head away again to take in more of the view below.

"It really works, doesn't it," she said thoughtfully after a while.

"What does?"

"Science. It works."

Dyer stopped drinking and looked at her in mock surprise.
"Are you feeling all right today . . . no headaches or dizzy spells or anything like that?"

"It's okay. This really is me talking," Laura said. "It's just that . . . well, everything I've seen since we came here . . . it's all too incredible to be real, but it is. Whatever people had to learn to build something like this, they had to get it right. Know what I mean, there's no room to fool yourself when you take on this kind of thing. There are so many other 'ologies' and 'isms' and all kinds of stuff that people spend their whole lives believing, but they're all fooling themselves, aren't they. They never have to prove it by doing something like this . . . something where there's no getting away from the fact that it either works or it doesn't."

"You mean results," Dyer offered, screwing the cap back on the flask and returning the flask to the knapsack.

"Yes, that's it I guess. Results. If something doesn't produce any results outside your own head, there's no way you're ever going to know whether what you think about it is right or wrong. You could believe it all you want, but if you're honest you'd have to admit that you couldn't know."


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Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 22 2012,15:08   

Quote (Dr. Jammer @ June 22 2012,14:32)
Are we still pretending that there's but a single definition of evolution, which is synonymous with Neo-Darwinism? Surely not.

listen shitface, the only reason I can even say "evolution" is that it really means "reality based community who will engage with evidence".

So to your lot there *is* only a single definition of evolution, which is synonymous with "no god". And that's the sense I'm using it - their sense. Obviously "evolution" explains about as much about life as "flow" does a rivers course.

So if you've a problem with that take it up with them.

If you don't then prove it and start to engage on the evidence rather then your pathetic hit and run smear attempts.
Quote
The whole bait-and-switch definition game no longer works, fellas. Get some new trickery, please.


Yawn. The priests have been using your trickery for thousands of years. Smoke and mirrors...

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Glen Davidson



Posts: 1100
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 22 2012,16:09   

Quote (Dr. Jammer @ June 22 2012,14:32)
Are we still pretending that there's but a single definition of evolution, which is synonymous with Neo-Darwinism? Surely not.

The whole bait-and-switch definition game no longer works, fellas. Get some new trickery, please.

Are we still pretending that there's but a single definition of genetics, synonymous with the "neo-darwinian" (anachronistic, of course, but dumbasses often are) presentation of genetics?

Are we still pretending that there's only a single definition of thermodynamics, the materialistic conception embodied in the laws of thermodynamics, as if caloric and other "theories" don't exist?

Oh, you're right ignoramus, there are other ideas of evolution.  Just not in science, you know, in the empirical world, vs. the fictional fantasy world of IDiots.

Glen Davidson

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http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
Dr. Jammer



Posts: 37
Joined: Feb. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: June 22 2012,17:02   

Quote (OgreMkV @ June 22 2012,15:39)
     
Quote (Dr. Jammer @ June 22 2012,14:32)
Are we still pretending that there's but a single definition of evolution, which is synonymous with Neo-Darwinism? Surely not.

The whole bait-and-switch definition game no longer works, fellas. Get some new trickery, please.

Go find every biology textbook you can and type of the definitions of evolution that you find.

Want to bet what you get?

Or, are you saying that because evolution is an observed fact AND a theory that describes the behavior of systems of reproducing organisms that we have multiple definitions of evolution?

Let me ask this, what is the one definition of ID?  Why does Behe say it mechanistic and Demsbki say that it isn't mechanistic?  Why do some people say that the designer did and does everything, while other say that the designer only designs things we aren't sure how came about?  Why do some say design only applies to life and others say it applies to everything, including the formation of the universe?

Why don't you go argue with your own side about what the real definition of ID is?

BTW: Even if you totally disprove evolution, right here, right now... it doesn't mean that ID is right.  Only positive supporting evidence can do that.  Got any?

edit to add this...

What do you make of this quote Jammer?

lastyearon goes for a Friday bannination.

       
Quote
Don’t feel too bad, Jerad. I think you are making a valiant effort to clarify things, to understand where you and UPB differ, to understand what exactly Intelligent Design means. But, you know what they say… "Never ask for clarification from a man whose soul depends on not being clear."

So, then, "every biology textbook" is in on the bait-and-switch tactic as well? I surely hope not, lest I'll be forced to write to some politicians and book publishers to see that it's rectified.

Anyway...

Evolution means that life changes over time. It doesn't answer the questions of to what extent and via what means. Those are additional questions that various branches of evolution attempt to answer; Darwinian evolution, front-loaded evolution, etc.

In saying that she's not "anti-evolution," the lovely Ms. Ftk is saying that she's not anti-life-changes-over-time (nor am I). However, that doesn't mean she's not anti-Darwinian evolution; she may or may not be (I am).

One can reject certain proposed explanations of how life evolved without rejecting the notion that it did evolve.

Likewise, a person can reject the notion that Neil Armstrong traveled to the moon on a bicycle (how) without rejecting the notion that Neil Armstrong did travel to the moon.

Life changed over time. <== Broad claim
Life changed over time via x. <== More specific claim; possible to reject without rejecting the broader claim.

Neil Armstrong traveled to the moon. <== Broad claim
Neil Armstrong traveled to the moon via x <== More specific claim; possible to reject without rejecting the broader claim.

Get it?

God, I feel like I'm trying to teach a group of mentally challenged third-graders here.

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Luskin destroys Talk Origins. | Dawkins runs scared. | Upright Biped scares off Moran

   
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 22 2012,18:41   

Quote
First off, let's be clear that design can accommodate all the results of Darwinism.  -- Wad, 01/24/01


In which case ID becomes a dispensible patina of spookiness.

Yawn.


eta  minor typo.

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"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
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