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The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2006,05:46   

Louis:
   
Quote
) "Liberal" is not an insult. Nor is American liberalism the sum total of liberal thought. Go East Ghosty, come to Europe, we've had liberalism for centuries (vaguely!. ####, some of us (me included) even LIKE Americans, that's how tolerant we are!

Yeah, the term "liberal" means something different to Europeans. But on the whole, Britian and the rest of Europe is far more "progressive" and "leftist" than America. In fact, American Democrats would be considered a little to the right on the European political spectrum.
   
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3) Learn the difference between fiscal conservatism and social conservatism. I am getting tired of the "left vs right" falsely dichotomous bullshit of American political discussion, there are other political axes to move along. We know you're in the top right hand corner next to Hitler, but the diametric opposite of you is NOT in the top left hand corner with Mao. Nor does liberalism equate to socialism or communism. You can be socially liberal and fiscally conservative. You can be liberal and expect people to demonstrate certain responsibilities AND try to get the state to provide a safety net for when things go awry. It really isn't either or Ghosty. Try to think in ways other than "Them and us", it makes life lots nicer.

Why would you think I have an affinity for Hitler's policies? He was a socialist who stifled political expression and murdered millions of people. Or do you dispute that Hitler was disloyal to his own economic program?
 
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11 That all unearned income, and all income that does not arise from work, be abolished.
12 Since every war imposes on the people fearful sacrifices in blood and treasure, all personal profit arising from the war must be regarded as treason to the people. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
13 We demand the nationalization of all trusts.
14 We demand profit-sharing in large industries.
15 We demand a generous increase in old-age pensions.
16 We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle-class, the immediate communalisation of large stores which will be rented cheaply to small trades people, and the strongest consideration must be given to ensure that small traders shall deliver the supplies needed by the State, the provinces and municipalities.
17 We demand an agrarian reform in accordance with our national requirements, and the enactment of a law to expropriate the owners without compensation of any land needed for the common purpose. The abolition of ground rents, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.
18 We demand that ruthless war be waged against those who work to the injury of the common welfare. Traitors, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished with death, regardless of creed or race.
19 We demand that Roman law, which serves a materialist ordering of the world, be replaced by German common law.
20 In order to make it possible for every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education, and thus the opportunity to reach into positions of leadership, the State must assume the responsibility of organizing thoroughly the entire cultural system of the people. The curricula of all educational establishments shall be adapted to practical life. The conception of the State Idea (science of citizenship) must be taught in the schools from the very beginning. We demand that specially talented children of poor parents, whatever their station or occupation, be educated at the expense of the State.
21 The State has the duty to help raise the standard of national health by providing maternity welfare centres, by prohibiting juvenile labour, by increasing physical fitness through the introduction of compulsory games and gymnastics, and by the greatest possible encouragement of associations concerned with the physical education of the young.

Of course, Hitler also supported immigration restrictions and a few other tenets of cultural conservatives, but this aspect has been greatly exaggerated:
 
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When the Nazis came to power in 1933 one of the first acts Hitler did was to legalize abortion. By 1935 Germany with 65 million people was the place where over 500,000 abortions were being performed each year. Although Hitler and his government encourged Aryan women to produce a lot of children, he left the matter of abortion and all its facets in the hands of a decidely pro- abortion medical establishment. Even in the midst of Nazi propaganda aimed at increasing the Aryan population, scores of Aryan women still chose to abort their unborn children. The medical publication Deutsches Aerzleblatt reported the abortions in Germany each year reached a half-million.

Further, a Nazi decree of October 19, 1941 established abortion on demand as the official policy of Poland. Hitler, however, expressed dissatisfaction with this policy. Abortion, he believed, should NOT be limited to Poland. He therefore ordered that abortion be expanded to all populations under the control of the "Ministry of the Occupied Territories of the East."

On July 22, 1942, the Fuhrer exhibited a highly positive attitude towards abortion as an indispensable method of dealing with the non-German populations in countries under Nazi control. "In view of the large families of the native populations," he asserted, "it could only suit us if girls and women there had as many abortions as possible." Hitler also personally announced that he "would personally shoot" any "such idiot" who "tried to put into practice such an order (forbidding abortion) in the occupied Eastern territories.

Despite contemporary attempts to characterize Hitler as opposed to abortion, the historical evidence clearly and overwhelmingly supports only one possible conclusion: Hitler and his regime were adamantly pro-abortion. To depict Hitler as anti-abortion is a ludicrous as calling him anti-genocide or pro- Jewish. Both Hitler and his government had little regard for human life perceived as subpar, whether born or preborn.

 
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I LOVE your new strategy, it's just SO much fun! I am apparently a homophobe because I made a joke about YOU having a crush on Eric.

Glad we can agree on something. But it's OK; I'm sure you didn't mean any harm. And I don't care if you think I'm gay; it's just funny that you apparently find the lifestyle so distasteful.
 
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b) That you protest far too much at my little joke. Did I hit a nerve Ghosty? Do you really have a crush on Eric? Is he your godless liberal of choice? Note I am NOT saying that you want to have sex with Eric. After all you can love him for his posting talents and wonderous manners in a purely asexual manner, but love it still is. Can you not love another man without it being sexual, Ghosty? I love my father and my brother and some of my male friends, but I don't want to have sex with any of them. Geeeez Ghosty, little girls have crushes on pop stars before their first pube sprouts and they even know what sex is! Trust me, I'm not coy, if I wanted to say you wanted to have sex with Eric, I would have said it!

This passage made me laugh so hard that I lost the rest of my voice. Dude, you clearly have issues with homosexuality. Why this is, I don't know, and couldn't care less. I didn't know that complimenting Eric would bring forth a rush of free associations involving sprouting pubes and homoerotic male bonding, but apparently this thicket's rather thorny, so I'll leave it alone. I'm having too much fun seeing the Liberal Mind in action. Carry on... :D  :D  :D

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
ericmurphy



Posts: 2460
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2006,05:59   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ July 12 2006,10:46)
Why would you think I have an affinity for Hitler's policies? He was a socialist who stifled political expression and murdered millions of people.
 

Not a chance, Bill. Hitler was no more a "socialist" than Mussolini was. Does a "socialist" normally ban all unions as soon as he obtains political power?

Hitler gave a lot of lip-service to socialist programs during his tenure (as, I cannot fail to point out, our own administration does). The Volkswagen program (which failed to deliver a single car to a single German family during its entire existence) is only the most obvious example. Hitler was a fascist in every sense of the word, which is why the major industrialists backed him.

If you think the NSDAP actually confiscated war profits from the Krupps, the Messerschmidts, the IG Farbens, the Henkels, etc., you really need to do some remedial reading on the subject.

In short, there was nothing about Hitler's rule that was even remotely socialist.

Just because the name of the party was the National Socialist Workers Party doesn't mean the part was in any way "socialist," Bill. Any more than the "Healthy Forests Initiative" is in any way interested in preserving the National Forests.

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2006,06:12   

Eric, please read the link - it discusses the nationalisation of businesses and price controls under Hitler's watch.

Flank, how can I be a repressed homosexual and a frustrated heterosexual? Or am I bi? Get your story straight.  ;)


Improvious:
 
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I guess you missed my earlier post: "I did a little bit of poking around on some AN sites, and I found far more references to Christianity than to both Darwin and the theory of evolution combined."

No I didn't: I just recognise blatant cherry-picking when I see it. Aryan Nations is affiliated with the Christian Identity sect, so of course it's going to attract the "Christians". Using AN as to represent the movement is as misleading as using, say, the National Alliance. That's why I used the umbrella Stormfront website as a proxy for the neonazi movement -- it's far more comprehensive. And I used more than a "post"; I used two separate polls on two different web sites. I also linked to the leading "scientific" thinkers in the movement. Read the links.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
ericmurphy



Posts: 2460
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2006,06:17   

One more thing, Bill. Hitler was in favor of abortion, including forced abortion, as a tool for achieving racial purity and for reducing population growth among ethnicities he considered "inferior."

If you think this makes Hitler a "liberal," or a "socialist," someone has been reading you some very scary bedtime stories about liberal and socialist bogeymen.

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
ericmurphy



Posts: 2460
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2006,06:26   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ July 12 2006,11:12)
Eric, please read the link - it discusses the nationalisation of businesses and price controls under Hitler's watch.

Bill, I've read dozens of books on the Nazi party (my Dad, a staunch Republican, is fascinated by the Third Reich), and I'm pretty familiar with the history of the regime.

Yes, many businesses in Germany were nationalized. Do you think that means the workers in those business got to share in the profits? Do you think that nationalization might possibly have had something to do with placing the country on a war footing? Do you think the owners of those businesses were turned out onto the street? Why do you suppose all those famous industrial families backed Hitler to the end? Because he was impoverishing them?

Price controls had one purpose, Bill: to keep the war popular. Trust me, they had nothing to do with Hitler's love for the common people. When the end arrived, in the form of the Red Army, Hitler's goal (thwarted somewhat by Speer and others) was to annihilate the German people who had disappointed him so.

Are these "liberal" or "socialist" policies, Bill? Maybe in your dreams.

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2006,07:26   

Eric:
     
Quote
Yes, many businesses in Germany were nationalized. Do you think that means the workers in those business got to share in the profits? Do you think that nationalization might possibly have had something to do with placing the country on a war footing?

Which was partly motivated by his need to cover for his economic bungling:
     
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Kershaw makes the same point and suggests that it was this fear of social unrest, heightened by serious food shortages in Germany during the fall of 1935-themselves largely the result of government policies-that played the major role in Hitler's decision to reoccupy the Rhineland in March 1936, considered one of his "brilliant" strokes precisely because it was so unexpected-Germany was unprepared militarily or economically to carry out any extended effort in support of what even Hitler conceded to intimates was nothing more than a bold bluff.

What caused those food shortages?
     
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These facts were well known the the time, both within and without Germany. Roberts and others had written about them, attributing the food shortages to Hitler's centralized agricultural policy, which had virtually eliminated food imports while implementing government controls. The predictable result: Germany produced less food, causing both shortages and price increases. According to Roberts, wheat went up 15 percent, eggs 50 percent, butter 40 percent, potatoes 75 percent, and most meat 50 percent-all despite "official" and ineffectual price controls which Hitler for appearances' sake refused to lift. Well into Hitler's "miracle," Kershaw notes, "poor living-standards, falling real wages, and steep price increases in some necessities...(were) the dismal reality behind the 'fine facade of the Third Reich.'"

And how did Hitler feel about free trade? Let's look:
   
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Commenting in early 1937 on Goring's Four Year Plan for economic self-sufficiency, Roberts had presciently predicted the inevitability of either war or Hitler's fall from power. " There are 34 vital materials without which a nation cannot live, and unfortunately, Germany is worse off than any other great state insofar as these are concerned," he observed. "Whereas the British Empire is largely dependent on outside sources for only nine of these, Germany has only two in ample quantities-potash and coal. That means she must turn to the foreigner for all of her supplies of 26 of these and for part of six more. Yet this is the Power that sees fit to launch a plan for complete self sufficiency. It is ludicrous, unless she looks forward to obtaining control of the vast raw materials of central Europe or the lands beyond the Ukraine by some adventurous foreign policy...That is (Hitler's) basic dilemma. If he persists in the (economic) policies he has enunciated, he plunges Europe into war; if he abandons them, he can no longer maintain his position within Germany."

It's not that Hitler lacked contrary advice. Kershaw tells us that in October 1935 Price Commissioner Carl Goerdeler sent Hitler in October, 1935, "a devastating analysis of Germany's economic position." According to Kershaw, Goerdeler "favored a return to market economy, a renewed emphasis upon exports, and a corresponding reduction in the rearmament drive-in his view at the root of the economic problems...If things carried on as they were, only a hand-to-mouth existence would be possible after January 1936." But Goerdeler was ignored and later dismissed. Instead, Germany reoccupied the Rhineland, to widespread popular acclaim, and Goring unveiled his Four Year Plan, putting the economy firmly on a war footing.

Hitler himself apparently never had a clue that the economic policies he had followed for the first three years of his regime were responsible for his production problems. By 1936, Kershaw makes clear, Hitler believed his own press clippings regarding his economic acumen. Thus, for Hitler, the food crisis only confirmed his preconceptions. In the secret memorandum on which Goring's Four Year Plan was based, Hitler wrote, "We are overpopulated and cannot feed ourselves from our own resources. The solution ultimately lies in extending the living space of our people, that is, in extending the sources of its raw materials and foodstuffs." That is, the problem is not my fault and the answer is war, not economic reform.

[all emphases mine]

Sounds like the New York Times taught Hitler everything he knew about economics. And now "the paper of record" reaches out to a new generation.

Quote
Price controls had one purpose, Bill: to keep the war popular.

On the contrary -- price controls made the war necessary. Not that the Nazis complained.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
GCT



Posts: 1001
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2006,07:58   

Is it just me, or is Ghosty resorting to the third grade tactic of, "I'm rubber, you're glue.  Whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you."

  
Faid



Posts: 1143
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2006,08:54   

Quote
On the contrary -- price controls made the war necessary. Not that the Nazis complained.


Paley, the very passage you quoted says otherwise- once again.    
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But Goerdeler was ignored and later dismissed. Instead, Germany reoccupied the Rhineland, to widespread popular acclaim, and Goring unveiled his Four Year Plan, putting the economy firmly on a war footing.


Hitler was looking for WAR, not prosperity. He strove to make Germany self-sufficient, regardless of the cost... Because he was eager to sound the war drums. Hence the reducing of imports, controlled trade agreements, new working opportunities in local industry... And of course, demolishing the unions and filling up the treasury as much and as soon as possible.

(Edit: Haha, check this site. Just type in your views, and supposed results, and then see if they agree with what schoolkids are taught today. But I suppose that's just the liberals taking over the world, right?)

Look, judging from this, and from your pathetic quotemining results to prove nazis are evolutionists (the quote you provided was your greatest failure so far: Even I wouldn't think it would be that hard to get some nazi support for ToE from the net -especially to the GoogleMaster), I think it would be better if you quit stalling and just went back to proving geocentricism. The stars in their immobile Sphere are not in your favor these days...

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A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

  
ericmurphy



Posts: 2460
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2006,09:36   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ July 12 2006,12:26)
Eric:
           
Quote
Yes, many businesses in Germany were nationalized. Do you think that means the workers in those business got to share in the profits? Do you think that nationalization might possibly have had something to do with placing the country on a war footing?

Which was partly motivated by his need to cover for his economic bungling:

Yep. But that doesn't make him a socialist. It's not like fascist governments don't have economic policies, Bill.

None of your other points supports your contention that the NSDAP was in any way, shape, or form, a socialist party. Hitler was as close to a pure fascist, and his party was as close to a purely fascist party, as we are (with any luck) ever likely to see.

The Nazis were a far-right party, Bill, not a far-left party. No amount of quote-mining is going to change that fact.
     
   
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Price controls had one purpose, Bill: to keep the war popular.

On the contrary -- price controls made the war necessary. Not that the Nazis complained.

Bill, the war was a foregone conclusion as soon as Hitler became Chancellor (in the same way that war with Iraq became an inevitability as soon as Bush became president).  Hitler's mismanagement of the German economy had nothing to do with any sort of "socialist" philosophy of government. National Socialism was the antithesis of any sort of "socialist" economic policy. The only purpose any of Hitler's economics policies served was to further the end of global domination by force of arms. If Hitler needed to appease the masses by the use of price controls or promises of automobiles for everyone, so be it.

Face it, Bill: Hitler is a child of the Right, not the Left. To state otherwise is to fundamentally misunderstand what National Socialism was all about.

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2006,09:46   

Paley logic:

1) 'Nazi' is short for 'National Socialist'.
2) Socialists are leftists.
3) Liberals are leftists.
4) Liberals believe in evolution.
5) Therefore, liberals and anyone who believes in evolution is a Nazi.

swoooosh!!!!!

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Shirley Knott



Posts: 148
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2006,09:54   

Well, Arden, I think you've published the fully polished and fully formed version of Paley's gecontric theory.  I know it was tough work to extract that from his ravings, and I imagine the uninitiated might be puzzled at the lack of things like planets and stars, but... the cognoscenti get it, as Paley intended they should.

Thanks!

hugs,
Shirley Knott

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2006,10:27   

See, Eric, the problem with history is that it involves a lot of "chicken/egg" issues. Hitler was like all politicians: he wrote and said a lot of crap to get elected, with only some of it intersecting his true beliefs. This, in conjunction with the secrecy and complexity of the Nazi government, makes it very difficult to separate planned events from contingency.
    Take the holocaust, for instance. How much of the Holocaust superstructure (gas chambers, etc) was planned from the very beginning? No one knows: some historians argue that genocide was always the goal of Nazi policy; others claim that it evolved to suit Hitler's wartime needs. Yet all real historians agree that the holocaust happened. Same thing with Lebensraum; Hitler obviously embraced this concept before his rise to power (the concept predates Mein Kampf by over 25 years). This doesn't change the fact that his economic principles necessitated a quick and widespread application of the idea. Hitler's cultural fascism, economic socialism, and racial theorising intertwined to motivate his policies. In fact, syndicalist economic ideas inspired fascism's economic core. Georges Sorel inspired many of the Italian fascists, and Sorel himself sympathised with much of Mussolini's actions. Liberals really screwed the 20th century from both ends.
 
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National Socialism was the antithesis of any sort of "socialist" economic policy.

As I've said, syndicalist economics formed the core of fascism, and since a syndicalist is simply an impatient Marxist, Hitler's quarrel with communism was only a quibble, pinko textbooks to the contrary.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2006,10:30   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 12 2006,14:46)
Paley logic:

1) 'Nazi' is short for 'National Socialist'.
2) Socialists are leftists.
3) Liberals are leftists.
4) Liberals believe in evolution.
5) Therefore, liberals and anyone who believes in evolution is a Nazi.

I forgot, there's one more:

6) Therefore, Hitler was a liberal.



(Knowing Paley, Stalin probably was a liberal too. And anyone else Paley disapproves of, as well.)

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2006,10:34   

Quote

As I've said, syndicalist economics formed the core of fascism, and since a syndicalist is simply an impatient Marxist, Hitler's quarrel with communism was only a quibble, pinko textbooks to the contrary.


Right. Hitler had all those Communists killed just to cover up how much of a liberal he was.

You mean EVERYONE'S textbooks, Paley. (Except maybe David Irving's.)

Paley, are you just messing with us, or are you REALLY this much of a shit for brains?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2006,10:39   

In fact, I'll go one step further and argue that Erasmus Darwin* and Karl Marx killed more people than the rest of the world's madmen combined.





*The real "author" of The Origin of Species, Charles himself not being competent to write a comic book. Laugh all you want, the truth will out someday.....

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2006,10:50   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ July 12 2006,15:39)
In fact, I'll go one step further and argue that Erasmus Darwin* and Karl Marx killed more people than the rest of the world's madmen combined.


*The real "author" of The Origin of Species, Charles himself not being competent to write a comic book. Laugh all you want, the truth will out someday.....

Paley, you really need to find a girlfriend or something.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2006,10:51   

A.C.:
   
Quote
You mean EVERYONE'S textbooks, Paley. (Except maybe David Irving's.)


Hey, look it up if you don't believe me. The Nazi/Communist divide was based on an internecine squabble between two shades of pink. That's why Hitler slandered Christianity in private; if there's one thing a liberal can't abide, it's a doctrine that espouses personal responsibility. Hitler's heart lay with Odin, not Jesus. As several have discovered.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2006,10:54   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ July 12 2006,15:51)
A.C.:
   
Quote
You mean EVERYONE'S textbooks, Paley. (Except maybe David Irving's.)


Hey, look it up if you don't believe me. The Nazi/Communist divide was based on an internecine squabble between two shades of pink. That's why Hitler slandered Christianity in private; if there's one thing a liberal can't abide, it's a doctrine that espouses personal responsibility. Hitler's heart lay with Odin, not Jesus. As several have discovered.

I'm noticing a trend, here. YOU make a stupid statement, and suddenly it's OUR responsibility to disprove it.

Again, aren't you supposed to be off proving a flat earth, or something?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Faid



Posts: 1143
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2006,11:08   

Quote
*The real "author" of The Origin of Species, Charles himself not being competent to write a comic book. Laugh all you want, the truth will out someday.....


Yeah. Right after we find out about the fake moon landings.

Paley, seriously. If you really think that Hitler's policies had anything to do with even the fundamental principles of Communism, you've got some major reading to do.

{Edit: And of course Paley had to maintain his reputation as a quote artist (and to make his post appear more valid), so he provides a link -about Nazis and Pagan religions! Whoa, that showed us!  :p }

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A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

  
Faid



Posts: 1143
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2006,11:17   

Ghost, here's an idea: Why don't you provide us with a Hollow Earth model? I'm sure you can do it with your QM hocus-pocus, and you'll get to prove you're smarter than those Pagan Liberal Scientists the Nazis had!

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A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2006,11:31   

OK, 18 seconds of "googletrawling" brought this:
 
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Having combed their literature, Professor Gregor has shown beyond a shadow of doubt the affinities, too long ignored, between fascism and Marxism-Leninism. (It was Don Luigi Sturzo who provided the reductio ad absurdum: Fascism was black communism and communism was red fascism.) Richard Pipes has written that "Bolshevism and fascism were heresies of socialism."

Recalling that Mussolini began his political career as a distinguished Italian socialist, Gregor writes: "Fascism’s most direct ideological inspiration came from the collateral influence of Italy’s most radical ‘subversives’ — the Marxists of revolutionary syndicalism."

Even Nikolai Bukharin, the leading Soviet ideologist whom Stalin purged, began to have misgivings about the Revolution and began to allude to the fascist features of the emerging system. Gregor writes:

By the early 1930s, the ‘convergence’ of fascism and Stalinism struck Marxists and non-Marxists alike. . . . By the mid-1930s, even Trotsky could insist that ‘Stalinism and fascism, in spite of deep difference in social foundations, are symmetrical phenomena’ . . . .

Fascist theoreticians pointed out that the organization of Soviet society, with its inculcation of an ethic of military obedience, self-sacrifice and heroism, totalitarian regulation of public life, party-dominant hierarchical stratification all under the dominance of the inerrant state, corresponded in form to the requirements of Fascist doctrine.

Left liberals have frantically denied the "Janus" notion that Marxism-Leninism and fascism have a common origin. With scholarly skill and an enormous amount of reading has Professor Gregor made such denials as dated as the Communist Manifesto.

[my emp]


Here's another source.

Here's another:
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The best way to learn the nature of fascism is from the fascists themselves. To wit....

I am a Socialist, and a very different kind of Socialist from your rich friend, Count Reventlow. ... What you understand by Socialism is nothing more than Marxism.

Adolf Hitler, spoken to Otto Strasser, Berlin, May 21, 1930.
We National Socialists are enemies, deadly enemies, of the present capitalist system with its exploitation of the economically weak ... and we are resolved under all circumstances to destroy this system.

Gregor Strasser, National Socialist theologian...

Quote
Ernst Roehm, a dedicated socialist, leader of the SA, second only to Hitler in power in the National Socialist Party, in a letter to a friend, observed how often his street thugs switched back and forth between Roehm's National Socialist gangs and the Communist gangs, uncertain on whose side they rightly belonged.

In his, Road to Serfdom, Hayek remarks upon how, during the 1930s, the propagandists of both parties recognized the relative ease with which a young communist could be converted into a Nazi or vice versa and how university professors in the U.S. and Britain noticed that students returning from study in Germany could not decide whether they were Marxists or fascists, but were certain only that they hated, Western Civilization.

Of course, this article details several differences between classical Marxism and Fascism, but the differences are dwarfed by the underlying unity.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Faid



Posts: 1143
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2006,11:43   

HAHA good job, Ghost.

A quote from Trotsky comparing Stalinism to Fascism (Gee, I wonder why?), Another by a Nazi theologian explaining why Marxists are not true Socialists (edit: and why capitalists are bad- big deal), and another that describes how thugs switched back and forth between Nazi and Commie gangs (torn by ideological inner conflict, no doubt).

My question was simple: How are Hitler's economic policies simillar to ever the fundamental principles of Communism?

"Underlying unity" indeed. Maybe you should actually read that site, instead of trying to find quotes to use. I know I will.

Come on, you can do better than that.

--------------
A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2006,11:44   

Um, no, you were supposed to be explaining how Hitler was a closet Communist, which is what you were claiming.

Please, pay attention to the question. You're starting to act like Dave Hawkins.

The SA wanted straight Communism, which was a big reason Hitler had them killed once he came to power.

I think your standards for 'proving' that Hitler was a communist are much more lax than your standards for 'proving' that he wasn't a Christian. You're happy to take one anticapitalist quote as solid proof that he was a communist, but you also assume all those glowing things Hitler said about Jesus were all just window dressing to get elected.

Now, please. Flat Earth. Get to work. Your scholarly credibility is hanging by a thread.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Faid



Posts: 1143
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2006,11:48   

Or Hollow Earth. I know it's not in the Bible, but neither is Geocentricism (at least that's what any Fundie Christian who is not a crackpot would swear, as we all know).

--------------
A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2006,11:52   

Quote (Faid @ July 12 2006,16:43)
HAHA good job, Ghost.

A quote from Trotsky comparing Stalinism to Fascism (Gee, I wonder why?), Another by a Nazi theologian explaining why Marxists are not true Socialists, and another that describes how thugs switched back and forth between Nazi and Commie gangs (torn by ideological inner conflict, no doubt).

My question was simple: How are Hitler's economic policies simillar to ever the fundamental principles of Communism?

"Underlying unity" indeed. Maybe you should actually read that site, instead of trying to find quotes to use. I know I will.

Come on, you can do better than that.

No, actually he can't.

Funny, he's probably googling "Hitler and Communism" or something like that, and getting almost nothing but references detailing how Hitler had all the German Communists murdered in the 1930's. (And all the Commissars murdered in the USSR in the 1940's.) Which he has to ignore.

But hey, thanks to Bill, we now know that 'Communist', 'Liberal', 'Nazi' and 'Darwinist' are all synonyms. We owe him some kind of thanks for that.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2006,12:54   

<sigh>

Here's a site that lists some of Hitler's economic policies:
           
Quote
•&#61472;On 2nd May, 1933, Adolf Hitler ordered the Sturm Abteilung (SA) to arrest
Germany's trade union leaders. Robert Ley formed the Labour Front (DAF), the
only union organization allowed in the Third Reich.
•&#61472;A pay freeze was introduced in 1933 and this was enforced by the Labour Front.
Wages were now decided by the Labour Front and compulsory deductions made
for income tax, and for its Strength through Joy programme. The Labour Front
issued work-books that recorded the worker's employment record and no one
could be employed without one.
•&#61472;The government banned the introduction of some labour-saving machinery.
•&#61472;Employers had to get government permission before reducing their labour force.
•&#61472;The Nazi government gave work contracts to those companies that relied on
manual labour rather than machines. This was especially true of the government's
massive autobahn (motorway) programme.
•&#61472;The Nazis concentrated on rearming. Thousands of Germans worked in factories
producing weapons.
•&#61472;Conscription into the German armed forces helped to reduce the numbers of
unemployed.
•&#61472;Hitler also encouraged the mass production of radios. In this case he was not only
concerned with reducing unemployment, but saw them as a means of supplying a
steady stream of Nazi propaganda to the German people.
•&#61472;Youth unemployment was dealt with by the forming of the Voluntary Labour
Service (VLS) and the Voluntary Youth Service (VYS), these planted forests,
repaired river banks and helped reclaim wasteland.
•&#61472;Women in certain professions such as doctors and civil servants were dismissed,
while other married women were paid a lump sum of 1000 marks to stay at home.
•&#61472;In the summer of 1935 Adolf Hitler announced the introduction of Labour Service
(RAD). Under this measure all men aged between the ages of nineteen and
twenty-five had work for the government for six months. Later women were also
included in the scheme and they did work such as teaching and domestic service.

This is classic New Deal socialism. And yes, Hitler and Mussolini were outspoken admirers of FDR.

So let's see:

1) Hitler embraced fascism, a political system based in large part on syndicalist ideas;

2) His economic policies imposed heavy-handed price, wage, and labour controls, expanded the bureaucracy, formed tightly-regulated cartels administered by the government (as well as business leaders), reduced trade, and instituted public works projects to alleviate unemployment. When he wasn't forming shell companies to funnel sweetheart loans into his rearmament program, of course. Smells leftie to me.

Now I've quoted several sources to back up my views, and here's one more:
       
Quote
As part of that denial, an essay by Steve Kangas is much reproduced on the internet. Entering the search phrase "Hitler was a Leftist" will bring up multiple copies of it. Kangas however reveals where he is coming from in his very first sentence: "Many conservatives accuse Hitler of being a leftist, on the grounds that his party was named "National Socialist." But socialism requires worker ownership and control of the means of production". It does? Only to Marxists. So Kangas is saying only that Hitler was less Leftist than the Communists -- and that would not be hard. Surely a "democratic" Leftist should see that as faintly to Hitler's credit, in fact.

At any event, Leonard Peikoff makes clear the triviality of the difference:



Contrary to the Marxists, the Nazis did not advocate public ownership of the means of production. They did demand that the government oversee and run the nation's economy. The issue of legal ownership, they explained, is secondary; what counts is the issue of CONTROL. Private citizens, therefore, may continue to hold titles to property -- so long as the state reserves to itself the unqualified right to regulate the use of their property.

Which sounds just like the Leftists of today.


And all I get in return is an attempt at redefinition ("Hitler wasn't a classic Marxist, so he can't be a commie!" Problem is, nobody can be a classic Marxist in the real world -- the attempts always devolve into socialism), and weak, fact-free bleatings based on Lenny Flank's Talk Origins agitprop.

Get some new material already. Hitler was a Darwin-lovin' pagan pinko, and the sooner you come to grips with that, the better.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2006,13:02   

Hey Paley, who was this, uh, "God" and "Creator" that Hitler kept talking about in _Mein Kampf_ . . . . . . ?

Anyone we know . . . .?

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Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2006,13:12   

Odin.

--------------
Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2006,13:30   

Quote
•&#61472;The Nazis concentrated on rearming. Thousands of Germans worked in factories producing weapons.
•&#61472;Conscription into the German armed forces helped to reduce the numbers of unemployed.


Yup. These convince me. Sure fire signs of Communism. How could I have doubted you?

The invasion of the Soviet Union just sealed the deal.

 
Quote
This is classic New Deal socialism.


So FDR's New Deal policies were actually Marxism? First a flat earth, now this! I learn new things every time I engage with Paley!

 
Quote
And yes, Hitler and Mussolini were outspoken admirers of FDR.


They were? Everything I've read showed Hitler hated FDR! Pinko historians again, I guess.

Oh, BTW, why did Hitler have all the German Communists sent to concentration camps or killed after he came to power? Was he just hung over that day, or terribly confused?

Since you know the white supremacist sites so well, please dig up some quotes where Hitler lauds Darwin.

 
Quote
Odin.


Don't think so:

“I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.”

“The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will.”

“My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice. And as a man I have the duty to see to it that human society does not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did the civilization of the ancient world some two thousand years ago — a civilization which was driven to its ruin through this same Jewish people.

“Then indeed when Rome collapsed there were endless streams of new German bands flowing into the Empire from the North; but, if Germany collapses today, who is there to come after us? German blood upon this earth is on the way to gradual exhaustion unless we pull ourselves together and make ourselves free!

“And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited.”

“And now Staatspräsident Bolz says that Christianity and the Catholic faith are threatened by us. And to that charge I can answer: In the first place it is Christians and not international atheists who now stand at the head of Germany. I do not merely talk of Christianity, no, I also profess that I will never ally myself with the parties which destroy Christianity. If many wish today to take threatened Christianity under their protection, where, I would ask, was Christianity for them in these fourteen years when they went arm in arm with atheism? No, never and at no time was greater internal damage done to Christianity than in these fourteen years when a party, theoretically Christian, sat with those who denied God in one and the same Government.”

“I may not be a light of the church, a pulpiteer, but deep down I am a pious man, and believe that whoever fights bravely in defense of the natural laws framed by God and never capitulates will never be deserted by the Lawgiver, but will, in the end, receive the blessings of Providence.”

(I bet all Hitler's Odin quotes and Darwin quotes must be in the same place.)

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Faid



Posts: 1143
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2006,13:50   

sigh indeed.

 
Quote
This is classic New Deal socialism. And yes, Hitler and Mussolini were outspoken admirers of FDR.


More handwaving, Ghost? Did FDR arrest all the trade union leaders? fire women from highly-paid jobs, to make them work in the factories? Did he fire the jews to give their jobs to Anglo-Saxons? Also, was FDR a Communist? (wait, I guess you probably think he was...)

Here comes the clue train, last stop is you: Hitler, (like FDR) had to fight unemployment. and that's where just about all simmilarity ends. Not to mention any simillarity with the Socialist manifesto.
I already explained you that Hitler was getting ready for WAR. And all his policies were for that. Or would you show me where he gave the workers control over industries? where he actually turned against the German Capital and claimed all their means of production? "bureaucracy" is not part of the economic theory of Marxism or Communism, Ghost. You can have an amazing amount of bureaucracy and live in a capitalistic country- with that bureaucracy in total cahoots with the capital. Oh and don't get me started about how renouncing machinery over human workforce is part of socialism... Maybe you should read a book from time to time.
But you already know all that: The whole world knows it. That's why you get all your ideas from your wacky right-wing sites and can't find a serious source that supports them. That's why you already moved the goalposts, and got to Hitler being a "leftist" -which can mean anything you want it to, right?

Hitler was a product of RIGHT extremism, Ghost. Fascism was (and still is) the murderous lunatic relative the great right-wing family has locked in the attic and pretend he doesn't exist.

The sooner you come to terms with that, the sooner it will stop haunting your dreams.


Also:
Quote
When he wasn't forming shell companies to funnel sweetheart loans into his rearmament program, of course. Smells leftie to me.

:D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D

Oh boy, that sinus infection sure messed up your sense of smell...

--------------
A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

  
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