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VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,14:30   

Richardthughes
Quote

Bwahahahahahahah....

*remembers to breathe*


What are you doing Dude? Are you reading the latest "biological ejaculation" from doctor Meyeres or what?

--------------
I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
Chris Hyland



Posts: 705
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,14:31   

Quote
So I presented here mushrooms as part of Nature where their coloration and sometimes their lethal effects are almost impossible to explain using Natural or Sexual selection. Maybe it is only free play of life to present itself, something that is hidden under veil of Natural selection before eyes of darwinists.
The modernt heory of evolution doesn't say every feature of an organism has to be the product of natural selection.
Quote
I don't underestand how one can be a darwinist and believe in some supernatural power as well.
I have no opinion on the existence or otherwise of the supernatural, so that's not a problem. Millions of people are able to believe in both, so thats good enough for me. I have plenty of Christian friends who believe that God makes the flowers grow, that doesn't mean that we can't attibute it to a natural process.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,14:33   

Quote (VMartin @ June 25 2007,14:30)
Richardthughes
 
Quote

Bwahahahahahahah....

*remembers to breathe*


What are you doing Dude? Are you reading the latest "biological ejaculation" from doctor Meyeres or what?

It's 'Myers', V. Read closer.

Hey, V, who's your designer, and what scenario is he using?

And do you agree or disagree with Davison's statement that "There is absolutely no evidence to refute common descent"?

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,14:36   

Quote (VMartin @ June 25 2007,14:30)
Richardthughes
 
Quote

Bwahahahahahahah....

*remembers to breathe*


What are you doing Dude? Are you reading the latest "biological ejaculation" from doctor Meyeres or what?

Funny, of all the posts you could reply to...

You are an intellectual coward.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
jeannot



Posts: 1201
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,14:40   

Quote (VMartin @ June 25 2007,13:38)
I don't underestand how one can be a darwinist and believe in some supernatural power as well.  It would mean that he believe life and man arouse by chance and yet some Higher power did not care of such process (but for what process such Supernatural power takes care of?). This  Power would exist independently even if human didn't arise by chance obviously.

Just to be perfectly clear, Martin: is your hypothesis based on the supernatural?

  
VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,15:08   

Chris Hyland (and others who would like to discuss some issue concerning the topic)

In the main article of this thread is written:

Quote

Natural selection can only work on genes that are expressed. If a gene is "turned off" then it is subject to runaway mutations that will render if useless in short order.


In the case of mushrooms the genes for coloration are expressed (it is not always pigments btw) but obviously there is not natural or sexual pressure that could refine or check the quality of expression. So there is no reason why should some mushroom be so colorful (no one cares of it you know). If they are so colorful despite of lack of NatSel or SexSel, it would mean that there is some other non-darwinian force behind preservation of such genes (Portmann's self-represantation for instance). It would also mean that the same force could preserve frontloaded genes that are "turned off" despite of common darwinian meaning.

--------------
I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,15:12   

V, why is it that you admire Davison so so much, yet you aren't willing to comment on this statement of his?

Quote
There is absolutely no evidence to refute common descent


What exactly are you afraid of?

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,15:13   

Quote (VMartin @ June 25 2007,15:08)
In the case of mushrooms the genes for coloration are expressed (it is not always pigments btw) but obviously there is not natural or sexual pressure that could refine or check the quality of expression. So there is no reason why should some mushroom be so colorful (no one cares of it you know). If they are so colorful despite of lack of NatSel or SexSel, it would mean that there is some other non-darwinian force behind preservation of such genes (Portmann's self-represantation for instance). It would also mean that the same force could preserve frontloaded genes that are "turned off" despite of common darwinian meaning.

Out of interest, what colour would they be if they did not have any evolved genes? :D

So, let me get this straight, the fact all mushrooms are not what, black, white? Let's say a single colour. And re-try.

The fact that all mushrooms are not the same colour is evidence for VMartins "theory" of the supernatural designer interfering on earth with DNA?

right so far? ok.

VMartin, what colour would mushrooms be if there was no designer?

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,16:02   

Quote

So, let me get this straight, the fact all mushrooms are not what, black, white? Let's say a single colour. And re-try.


I see, you are a darwinist from AtBC. You don't want to discuss problem but only to ridicule. As usually. I am fed up with people like you but I'll try to answer you neverthenless.

I would say that coloration should be white, black or gray (many mushrooms have such colors btw). I would compare situation to nocturnal animals where there is  no natural selection or sexual selection present as active force to modify coloration. Generally speaking moles are not as colorful as butterflies are. I have never heard about red owls with white dots. I have never heard about yellow or green bats. But there might be some cryptic function during day.

I would appreciate some ideas but you may keep ridiculing my posts if you like. You are a frustrated darwinists from AtBC I underestand you.

--------------
I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,16:08   

Quote (VMartin @ June 25 2007,16:02)
I have never heard about red owls with white dots.

That's because they have black dots.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Red_Owl

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,16:13   

V, why are you afraid to explain your positions?

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,16:16   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 25 2007,16:13)
V, why are you afraid to explain your positions?

He's a troll. It's not about discussion, just the reaction.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
jeannot



Posts: 1201
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,16:24   

Quote (VMartin @ June 25 2007,15:08)
Chris Hyland (and others who would like to discuss some issue concerning the topic)

In the main article of this thread is written:

Quote

Natural selection can only work on genes that are expressed. If a gene is "turned off" then it is subject to runaway mutations that will render if useless in short order.

... which doesn't mean that any expressed gene is subject to natural selection.

  
jeannot



Posts: 1201
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,16:29   

Quote (VMartin @ June 25 2007,15:08)
In the case of mushrooms the genes for coloration are expressed (it is not always pigments btw) but obviously there is not natural or sexual pressure that could refine or check the quality of expression. So there is no reason why should some mushroom be so colorful (no one cares of it you know).

I certainly care about the color of comestible or toxic mushrooms. That's how I can identify them.
Don't you think it has something to do with natural selection?

You want to prove your conclusion with dubious arguments, Martin.
You seem to think that all mushrooms should be pigment-less (white). In that case, a toxic species (or a species that interacts with animals in any way) would not be as easily recognizable. This should favor a particular color.

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,16:41   

Quote (VMartin @ June 25 2007,16:02)

I have never heard about red owls with white dots.

Here's one (rufous morph of the Eastern Screech-owl, Otus asio), photographed from the back steps of the Biology building at Kansas State University in 2006.


What's next?

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,16:46   

Quote (Richardthughes @ June 25 2007,16:16)
         
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 25 2007,16:13)
V, why are you afraid to explain your positions?

He's a troll. It's not about discussion, just the reaction.

Here's my take:

VMartin is basically a Christian creationist, though in his own odd Eastern European way. He's indicated this here and there on other boards in the past. He doesn't know much about biology, but bottomline, he's a creationist. That's why he won't answer questions about his 'designer' and his 'scenario' -- he knows all he has is 'Goddidit', and he can't defend that and continue his pseudoscientific pretensions.

Moreover, he's from Slovakia, and he seems to have bought the notion that anything 'leftwing' -- like not being a fundie, being an atheist or a 'Darwinist' -- means you're the same as the atheistic Communist meanies who stomped on Slovakia for 45 years. In other words, he's another one of those Eastern Europeans who becomes a total rightwinger purely as a reaction against the Soviet period. His anti-Darwinism is part and parcel of this. (Like how DaveScot embraces ID as part of his wingnuttery.)

Since VM is not very bright and doesn't understand English terribly well, he's not able to see how insane Davison is, something everyone in the English-speaking world figured out years ago. All he knows is that Davison offers some kind of pseudoscientific 'attack against Darwinism', and that's enough for him.  However, he hasn't been paying very close attention, so he has serious cognitive dissonance when it's pointed out to him that Davison thinks that God has died (clashes badly with his religious beliefs), or when Davison says that there's no reason to doubt common descent (something those awful atheists believe in). VM can't make those things line up with his religious opinions, so only option is to ignore our comments. The closest he can come to a counterargument is to snarl incoherent insults, to say "I can see you are all Darwinist", or to make jokes about "you Darwinist atheist are all stupid". Like Robert O'Brien, he's completely convinced that he's smarter than everyone around him, and that his religious views make him superior to us all, so he assumes this absolves him from having to actually back up any claims he makes.

I don't see him coming here to 'get a reaction' per se; I think it's more that he wants to stroke his ego by his devastating counterarguments against the Darwinists and atheists. In other words, he wants to dazzle us all, and he's too dumb to know he can't do it.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 25 2007,17:21   

Quote (VMartin @ June 25 2007,16:02)
you may keep ridiculing my posts if you like.

I do like.

And I don't need your permission.


You are indeed fit only to be laughed at.

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,13:42   

Arden Chatfield

Quote

Moreover, he's from Slovakia, and he seems to have bought the notion that anything 'leftwing' -- like not being a fundie, being an atheist or a 'Darwinist' -- means you're the same as the atheistic Communist meanies who stomped on Slovakia for 45 years. In other words, he's another one of those Eastern Europeans who becomes a total rightwinger purely as a reaction against the Soviet period.


I dare say you are not only a prominent linguist but also a promiment psychologist. Congratulation!

--------------
I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,14:10   

Quote (VMartin @ June 26 2007,13:42)
Arden Chatfield

Quote

Moreover, he's from Slovakia, and he seems to have bought the notion that anything 'leftwing' -- like not being a fundie, being an atheist or a 'Darwinist' -- means you're the same as the atheistic Communist meanies who stomped on Slovakia for 45 years. In other words, he's another one of those Eastern Europeans who becomes a total rightwinger purely as a reaction against the Soviet period.


I dare say you are not only a prominent linguist but also a promiment psychologist. Congratulation!

And unless you quit being a coward and start backing up your statements, I can only assume I have described you correctly. Congratulations.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,14:15   

jeannot

 
Quote

A trait can be neutral Martin, and in no way neutrality implies that a trait should "perish" (if that means anything). Where did you get that idea from?


I missed this post of yours  yesterday. I take it for granted that according darwinism "structure" that is not used is "phased out". Wikipedia writes:


As the function of the structure is no longer beneficial for survival, the likelihood that future offspring will inherit the "normal" form of the structure decreases.


So the structure would degenerate consequently, wouldn't it? To be sincere I do not see darwinian explanation why should  "neutral structure" or "neutral gene" persist intact during evolution. Might be neutral drift could remove harmful mutation on "neutral genes"
but I don't know. But if yes you have a problem. Fronloaded genes that are not used could be kept "ready" by the same mechanism, don't you think so?

Do you mean that such mechanism (neutral drift or even neutral draft) lies under bright coloration of mushrooms once it developed?

Quote

You want to prove your conclusion with dubious arguments, Martin.
You seem to think that all mushrooms should be pigment-less (white). In that case, a toxic species (or a species that interacts with animals in any way) would not be as easily recognizable.


I quoted a serious research that poisonous mushrooms do not tend to be more colorful as edible ones. I mentioned a fact that there are no other vision-oriented mushroom eaters as squirrels (unless you prove that deers, slugs and turtles are vision oriented and proceeds selective pressure on mushroom coloration). There is not known case of wild animal poisoned by mushrooms.


 
Quote

This should favor a particular color.


Again: suppososing there are vision oriented mushroom eaters. In other case such explanation is not correct.

--------------
I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,14:19   

What are you so afraid of, V? You're not ashamed, are you?

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,14:23   

Quote
To be sincere I do not see darwinian explanation why should  "neutral structure" or "neutral gene" persist intact during evolution.


then go read Kimura.

I would also suggest learning something about population genetics.

here's a very simple thought for you:

linkage.

just one in the myriad of things explaining how "neutral" traits can be maintained. Concept elucidated, tested, and verified by the Evil Darwinist Conspiracy ™.

because you are blind in no way impacts on the rest of us.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,14:27   

[No channeling of banned posters. Do that again and your posting privileges will be lifted. -- WRE]

Edited by Wesley R. Elsberry on June 26 2007,14:39

--------------
I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,14:29   

Quote (VMartin @ June 26 2007,14:27)
Chatfield 24. june 11:30

 
Quote

Well, looks like the simple expedient of forcing him to explain his statements has frightened off VMartin. He can scuttle off and resume cozily brownnosing Javison somewhere.



Why do you mentioned John and me in such a way?
John's opinion on people like you is that you are creep and that you are genetic garbage. You can kiss his ass to a purple blister. It's my opinion too.

mmm, sounds like ashamed to me!

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Rev. BigDumbChimp



Posts: 185
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,14:30   

Quote (VMartin @ June 26 2007,14:27)
Chatfield 24. june 11:30

 
Quote

Well, looks like the simple expedient of forcing him to explain his statements has frightened off VMartin. He can scuttle off and resume cozily brownnosing Javison somewhere.



Why do you mentioned John and me in such a way?
John's opinion on people like you is that you are creep and that you are genetic garbage. You can kiss his ass to a purple blister. It's my opinion too.

JAD is a Joke and the fact that you're his lapdog makes you one as well. He's growing increasingly insane and ...well... the fact you can't help but wag your tail in his shadow says alot.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,14:39   

Quote (VMartin @ June 26 2007,14:27)
Chatfield 24. june 11:30

     
Quote

Well, looks like the simple expedient of forcing him to explain his statements has frightened off VMartin. He can scuttle off and resume cozily brownnosing Javison somewhere.



Why do you mentioned John and me in such a way?
John's opinion on people like you is that you are creep and that you are genetic garbage. You can kiss his ass to a purple blister. It's my opinion too.

Now that you've announced that once again you agree with Davison, how do you feel about his statements that (a) there's no reason to doubt common descent, and (b) God has died? Can we assume that you agree with those statements, too?

Really, V, if you'd quit being a weasel and started trying to back up your statements and started answering questions, things would be a lot easier for you here.

Oh, and one more thing? Drop Davison. The man's a loon. Trust me. Even Dave Scot and Bill Dembski think so.

PS: If anyone's kissing JAD's ass to a purple blister, it isn't us Darwinists.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,14:45   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ June 26 2007,14:29)
Quote (VMartin @ June 26 2007,14:27)
Chatfield 24. june 11:30

 
Quote

Well, looks like the simple expedient of forcing him to explain his statements has frightened off VMartin. He can scuttle off and resume cozily brownnosing Javison somewhere.



Why do you mentioned John and me in such a way?
John's opinion on people like you is that you are creep and that you are genetic garbage. You can kiss his ass to a purple blister. It's my opinion too.

mmm, sounds like ashamed to me!

me too.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
jeannot



Posts: 1201
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,14:53   

&t  
Quote (VMartin @ June 26 2007,14:15)
So the structure would degenerate consequently, wouldn't it? To be sincere I do not see darwinian explanation why should  "neutral structure" or "neutral gene" persist intact during evolution.

You are making more sense in your latest post, Martin. But I still don't see how you come to that prescribed evolution hypothesis.

Regarding neutrality, you are referring to some "structures" that are supposed to be costly (requiring energy/biomass). In that case, they are not neutral, they are deleterious in comparison to the absence of structure.

   
Quote
Might be neutral drift could remove harmful mutation on "neutral genes;

This is unclear, at most antithetical. If a mutation is harmful, it's not neutral.
   
Quote
Fronloaded genes that are not used could be kept "ready" by the same mechanism, don't you think so?
What mechanism?
   
Quote
Do you mean that such mechanism (neutral drift or even neutral draft) lies under bright coloration of mushrooms once it developed?
What is neutral draft? I personally don't think that coloration is neutral, even in mushrooms. But even if it's not linked to their toxicity, there could be a variety of environmental factors that could select a particular color.
   
Quote
I quoted a serious research that poisonous mushrooms do not tend to be more colorful as edible ones. I mentioned a fact that there are no other vision-oriented mushroom eaters as squirrels (unless you prove that deers, slugs and turtles are vision oriented and proceeds selective pressure on mushroom coloration). There is not known case of wild animal poisoned by mushrooms.

I'm not surprised their is none. I am not aware of any research regarding the ecological impact of predation on fungal populations by wild animals (although I haven't do much bibliographic research on that topic). I'm not even sure whether we know why some fungi are toxic and others are not. Has this anything to do with spore dissemination for instance? My suggestion was a just an example of what could select a particular color.
Anyway, you are the one who should provide some evidence for your hypothesis. And in the case of color in mushrooms, I've been asking you several times what your hypothesis was and you haven't felt the necessity to give me an answer.
If color in mushrooms is useless and costly, as you suggest, why most of them are colored? Give me a suggestion, anything...

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,15:05   

Quote
But even if it's not linked to their toxicity, there could be a variety of environmental factors that could select a particular color.


Indeed, moreover, coloration might be linked to an entirely different trait.

nothing Vmartin has raised has ANYTHING to do with whether color in fungi is a trait resultant from any selective pressures.

funny, but he really is doing the exact thing he accuses "darwinists" of:

inventing just so stories.

but then, as I keep saying, projection is nothing unusual amongst anti-science folk.

If anyone is actually interested (VMartin obviously isn't), why not create a thread where we examine the actual literature on the subject?

I'd be willing to lay odds that someone has investigated the genetics behind color and toxicity in various fungi, and that someone has even attempted to investigate if the traits are correlated with a specific selective pressure.

IMO, it would be a far more interesting thread than this one, which had actually reached the "diminishing return" point the LAST time Vmartin appeared in the forum, many moons ago.

Jean, you have access.  If you think it interesting, and have time, why not start a thread with a link to a relevant article if you manage to dig one up?

meh, I've decided I have enough interest myself, that I'll just go ahead and create a thread.

see if you can dredge up the pdf of the article list, if you have time?

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
jeannot



Posts: 1201
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,15:33   

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 26 2007,15:05)
Jean, you have access.  If you think it interesting, and have time, why not start a thread with a link to a relevant article if you manage to dig one up?

meh, I've decided I have enough interest myself, that I'll just go ahead and create a thread.

see if you can dredge up the pdf of the article list, if you have time?

I'll have a look.

EDIT : It seems that the paper quoted by Martin is almost the only one dealing the the evolution of toxicity in mushrooms. Unfortunately, Am. Nat. is one of the few journals (of ecology) I can't access.
However, I have the list of their cited references, and none of them deals with the genetics of coloration in mushroom, nor their selective role. They also clearly state in the abstract that the topic has received little attention. So I suppose most of the work remains to be done.

However, this reminds me of fascinating stories about coloration and mimicry in orchids. Stuff that has been deeply studied and explained by adaptive models.
Martin, if you really want to do some science, you should dig into that.

  
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