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Antievolution.org Discussion Board > From the Panda's Thumb > After the Bar Closes... > Fact to fact, face to face supporting science

Question: Fact to fact, face to face supporting science :: Total Votes:83 Poll choices Votes Statistics I never discuss science v. creationism in public 11  [13.25%] I occasionally discuss science v. creationism in public 60  [72.29%] I seem to always discuss science v. creationism in public 12  [14.46%] Guests cannot vote

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guthrie Posts: 696 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,16:46    Quote (J-Dog @ April 08 2008,14:17) Ah yes.  Glad you shared this with us, and this is exactly the type of situation that my experience living with a Creo best prepares me for. Prior to meeting my wife, I would have called the old bugger an utter and complete moron, totally devoid of any reason to live, and suggested, strongly, that he do something about it. Now, having had the years of maturation and experience and understanding of living with a "believer", I would simply  smile at him, and tell him to shut up and piss off. Since I do not recall actually meeting anyone with any Creationist leanings in real life before, I was momentarily a bit shocked that someone I'd regarded as intelligent was so confused.  But then I also realised that he was working off a different map from myself.  He didn't know about ID, was a believer, so of course God created the universe etc, but had no idea of the Creationist modus operandi of lying.  I think that if we had had time to talk for long enough, I coudl have gotten him to see that there is a difference between science and religion etc, and that creationists were people who misused science.  I have no problem with believers who say "I believe god created everything, including us".  I do have a problem with people who say "I believe god created us and everything and science agrees with the bible thus proving me right", or "I believe god created everything and us and you should all worship my god every day", which is effectively what the Cretinists and their ilk are saying.

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,17:02    Yah, I get to be in the majority again!  I occasionally talk to people about evolution/creationism and I have no problem doing it.  Ironically, most of these conversations are with YECs and I gently try to disabuse them of some of their crazier claims in the hopes that they won't sound so ignorant in the future.  I figure you guys might get a chuckle out of that.  But I do tend to be received fairly well and have seen some positive results since I am from within the circle rather than outside of it, so to speak.

J-Dog Posts: 4402 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,18:12    Quote (guthrie @ April 08 2008,16:46) Quote (J-Dog @ April 08 2008,14:17) Ah yes.  Glad you shared this with us, and this is exactly the type of situation that my experience living with a Creo best prepares me for. Prior to meeting my wife, I would have called the old bugger an utter and complete moron, totally devoid of any reason to live, and suggested, strongly, that he do something about it. Now, having had the years of maturation and experience and understanding of living with a "believer", I would simply  smile at him, and tell him to shut up and piss off. Since I do not recall actually meeting anyone with any Creationist leanings in real life before, I was momentarily a bit shocked that someone I'd regarded as intelligent was so confused.  But then I also realised that he was working off a different map from myself.  He didn't know about ID, was a believer, so of course God created the universe etc, but had no idea of the Creationist modus operandi of lying.  I think that if we had had time to talk for long enough, I coudl have gotten him to see that there is a difference between science and religion etc, and that creationists were people who misused science.  I have no problem with believers who say "I believe god created everything, including us".  I do have a problem with people who say "I believe god created us and everything and science agrees with the bible thus proving me right", or "I believe god created everything and us and you should all worship my god every day", which is effectively what the Cretinists and their ilk are saying. Guthrie - I am sure you did everything right, and please keep in mind that I was kidding about telling the silly old guy to piss off and shut up. I would in fact, ignore him, unless it was a one on one situation, then I would talk to him calmly, before telling him that God spoke to me in a vision about him, and he was doomed to spend his eternity in hell. -------------- Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10 Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08 UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

Assassinator Posts: 479 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,18:52    Quote (BWE @ April 08 2008,06:22)   Quote (Assassinator @ April 08 2008,05:17) ... my dad and I don't really get along anyway since character wise, we're WAY to similair. It's not that he's christian, or some other kind of fundie, it's just he's a tard on some area's. And lot's of times, there is a complete lack of logic in his parenting (and even my mum acknowledges that sometimes). And that's a pretty volatile mix. Your children will repeat that paragraph dang near verbatim someday. Thus spake BWE I really can't wait for that moment, because that would mean they would start thinking for themselfs ;-) At least I will try 1 thing my dad lacks right now: dialogue. He thinks I should listen to him just because he's my dad, problem is I simply won't do that (ofcourse, the fact that I'm still a kid and that I sometimes still am a impulsive and rebelling teen plays a part as well, I won't deny that). And although I never hestitate to at least try to discuss with my dad lots of time, I do hestitate to discuss with other family members. My grandma for instance, she's amazing, is a "regular" christian and a creationist (although I doubt she's a YEC). I once started a dialogue about that with her, when I was 10, and never bothered again because it's a way too nice relationship to spoil wich such a debate.   Quote (BWE @ April 08 2008,15:47) I discovered that Christians really exist, the kind that thump their bibles, only after I went to college. I've only met a handful even still. It's quite foreign to me. I've lived with them my entire, yet short, life and I still do. Although they're pretty friendly in most cases, some are actually pretty scary. 1 Morning I was biking to school pretty early in the morning past 1 of those folks houses, there a mother who looked a bit like that girl from The Ring (a sleeping-gown wich looks Victorian, pale face, long black hair although not hanging infront of her face) kept following me with deep-socketed dark eyes. Scared the crap outa me, but luckely even she is a bit of an excess from that community. Although that community is pretty damned clear they're fundie's, the fundie's who definatly don't look or sound fundie frighten me the most. I met this really beautiful and friendly girl a while ago, and I was shocked when I found out she was a YEC fundie. It was so wierd, I also attempted dialogue with her but I left that to rest as well because I didn't want to create tension. That's the main reason why I barely discuss controversial things at all with other people, I can't stand tension.   Quote (Louis @ April 08 2008,05:30) Dutch? Did I mention that the Netherlands is one of my most favouritest places in teh world. I've been to Amsterdam several times and a good friend of mine is Dutch. Ahhh the Van Gogh Museum, the Ann Frank House, the canals, the beautiful yet strangely leaning architecture.....ah yes, I remember them very poorly for some reason. Particularly of interest is a little cafe on the Warmoesstraat in Amsterdam called "The Greenhouse Effect". Their White Widow is superb...erm someone told me once, apparently. You can't beat Jack Herrer though...allegedly. Anyway, since the only Dutch I can reliably remember is a few plesantries, "mijn geschlactsorganen doen pijn" and "Ik hab een zwelling"* I'll leave this there. Louis *Learned only for comedy purposes I can assure you, Your Honour. I never really felt the urge to go into Amsterdam, I visited it once on our way to the popu-science museum Nemo, but I wouldn't call that a real visit to Amsterdam. When I watch that city on tv and what I've seen on that 1 trip myself, Amsterdam feels a bit...icky to me. Although I'm definatly not a christian boy, I'm pretty damned prudish on some things ;-)

BWE Posts: 1902 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,19:15    Quote (Assassinator @ April 08 2008,18:52) ...He thinks I should listen to him just because he's my dad, problem is I simply won't do that... You have correctly identified the problem. Now if you could go about identifying a solution I'd help you market it and we could make a killing. :) If it helps, half the problem is chemical. IOW, there's not much you can do but remember that dad's are generally good things to have. That and expecting perfection rarely leads to gratification. More sage words from the BWE. I'm gonna start an advice column. -------------- Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered When wished on the morning star Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it Look what it's done so far The Daily Wingnut

Falk Macara Posts: 11 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,21:00    Depends if I'm carrying my sixteen knives, twelve guns, two chainsaws, and chainsaw-firing-crossbow with underslung rabid attack dog launcher.* As a general rule, very very rarely -- effectively never since I had some lunatic hug me (!!!) and tell me they'd pray for my soul.   Falk. *:  If I am, I'll usually content myself with asking people (fundies or otherwise) to help me out from under this pile of rubbish, but mind the rabid attack dog, he's been a bit ill, Oh well, I'm sure that when it's dry it'll scrape off a beauty.

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,21:27    Quote Please tell me if by your definition (there are so many conflicting definitions) whether or not I am a creationist -- so I know if I am allowed to reply. I doubt there is any one definition that would fit all the usages of the term. An operational definition that might (or might not) work, is somebody who takes seriously arguments that, if true, would imply that hundreds of thousands of scientists have been as a group making it all up as they go, without losing their jobs en masse, and without any evident lack of research results, and without any explanation of why scientists from different nations, religions, cultures, backgrounds, and worldviews, would agree fairly well with each other on the general principles of their branch of science (even if not on all the technical details). Now as to how often I argue about evolution in person - so far I don't. I don't have much experience in oral debate, and don't think that fast (it's often a few minutes or several later when I figure out what I should have said). For another thing, in this subject I'm an amateur, so most of the technical stuff will be over my head. Plus, somebody who's been arguing from the other side for long is somebody who's chosen to disregard what the experts say about their own subjects (see operational definition above). Also, antievolutionist frequently judge arguments first by how the feel about the conclusion, a habit that can make communication rather difficult. On-line, otoh, there's time to think bewteen comments, there's time to look up stuff, and other people to jump in with added details. Also there's a record of what the other person said, and there's no actual interrupting of somebody while they're typing something. (Er, I mean from the other participants in the argument, not from others in that person's home. ) Henry

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,23:20    Quote (dheddle @ April 08 2008,13:11) Please tell me if by your definition (there are so many conflicting definitions) whether or not I am a creationist--so I know if I am allowed to reply. There are certainly many definitions but two that apply here.   1) most often referenced by members here is the YEC who takes a literal translation of Genesis, i.e. 7 24 hour days of creation, the "Let there be"s and instantaneous appearance of listed creatures, approximately 6000 years of history dating back to Adam through the generations of man, and so forth.  If you are of this ilk of creationist put on your flak jacket and duck and cover.  The barrage is endless, heavy and coming from all sides. 2) As Louis, pointed out, if you believe in God then he "created" the Universe in same fashion using some method.  From here theology ends and science takes over.  This variety can go without the flak jacket as attacks are much more intermittent but do you keep an eye out because sometimes you can become a victim of collateral damage. But most importantly, regardless of your variety or lack thereof, always post as no one is barred...at least up until the point that they are barred.  Hey, I'm still posting here so that's gotta say something.

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,23:22    skeptic do you wish you had been banned?  I don't.  Hell I didn't even like to see that intemperate liar FtK banned, but it was for the best Im sure. -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 09 2008,00:46    nah, I think banning is bad in all cases.  No matter the level on discourse there's always something that can be gained or learned even if it's only what not to say.  We're all big boys and girls here so I doubt if anything said is really unbearable and let's face it, we're not gonna be curing cancer here anytime soon so a bit of playful debate is not a complete distraction or waste of time.  I for one have picked up lots of good tidbits here and there even if I do completely disagree with the poster.  Ahh, what do I know!  Just my 2 cents.

Nomad Posts: 311 Joined: July 2007 (Permalink) Posted: April 09 2008,03:35    I'm sort of in the middle.  I'll talk about it with people in public, but it's not like I seek out arguments with people I don't know about it.  For example, when I heard a family at a restaurant talking about The Golden Compass I didn't say anything when I heard someone whispering about how she heard that the author was, get this, an "atheist", I did not break in to point out that atheism is no dirty secret that needs to be whispered about. On the other hand when I used to work with a YEC I did take issue with his denial of relativity.  His exact words were "an hour is an hour, no matter how fast you're going".  Unfortunately I didn't know then what I know now.  I didn't know that GPS satellites have to take time dilation into account to keep their clocks accurate compared to ground based systems.  I also didn't know that the effect had been measured by sending atomic clocks up into airliners. I really would have liked to see his response when I told him that this effect that he so smugly proclaimed didn't exist had not only been detected, but meant that GPS satellites had to make adjustments in their time keeping in order to work properly. I also once asked him what happened to the dinosaurs (like I said, he was a full on YEC).  His response, and I want to stress that he said this with a straight face, was that they had all been killed by a warrior king. He was a nice enough guy, it's not like he appeared to be barking mad if he wasn't discussing science or religion, but that warrior king thing let me know that I was wasting my time and that I'd better let it go in the interests of continuing workplace harmony.

Albatrossity2 Posts: 2780 Joined: Mar. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: April 09 2008,06:29    Like most scientists, I tend to like discussing science, and explaining it to folks who don't have a clear understanding of either the facts or the process of science. Unfortunately, in this country (and particularly in this part of the country) those folks tend to be creationists, and their lack of understanding tends to be willful. This means that any discussion about science is, to them, a discussion about religion. And those are routinely futile. If I think that they are actually just laboring under misconceptions that can be easily addressed scientifically, I'm open to discussing it more. As soon as it becomes clear that discussion of the science is futile, because their real questions are of a religious nature, I'll back off. There is no future in a discussion where my answers don't address their questions, and they are too dishonest to admit that no matter what the science says, their religion holds all the trump cards. -------------- Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind Has been obligated from the beginning To create an ordered universe As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.                         - Pattiann Rogers

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: April 09 2008,07:11    I wanna be the warrior king that killed all the dinosaurs.  That.  is. hilarious.  and a new one on me.  Surely should go into to Top Tard Quotes.  Nomad where does this species of denialist call home? Most people that are never bothered to think about these sorta things, for whatever reasons i dont understand, they not only have a poor understanding of how science works but also misunderstand how religion works.  The fundamental difference in for lack of better word shall we say epistemologies (although, skeptic, we have never seen any reason to suppose there is such a thing as a religious epistemology) is IMO in large part due to this deep confounding of what have been advertised as two (in many many account, often explicitly exclusive) ways of understanding the world.  There is no way to explain this particular problem to pick your average person in any sort of general social setting any more than there is for Bruce Lee to teach me Mandarin while I swim with a school of anchovies, or for me to do the centipede all the way to the moon, or get Louis to not be gay.  Should there be, is the question.  I think there is a way to communicate this information but it is not teaching*.  This is why arguing details is a failure. For me, as I am a bit of a contrarian and enjoy the pugilism I find that confronting creationist claims directly can lead to a fine argument that leaves no one satisfied unless you are trying to make some one look stupid in public.  And since that is a rare occasion anywhere but the intarwebzz I find that lighting many small fires with an indirect criticism of epistemology yields much greater heat.  And personal satisfaction.  And if you are into that sorta thing (talkin to a man and larnin' him somethin about what you know) it can be the mostest educationalest.   So, instead of going into the gritty details of exactly why Cliff Burdick can't admit that he contaminated his sample with pollen, or why we are suspicious of the supposed human-dinsoaur tracks at Paluxy, or just how the fracterial blagella ain't so Irradiodouchably  Complex  or whatever, I find that it helps to ignore those trapping details.  Seriously, they are not interested in the finer points and details anyway.  That is just a game to these douchebags like Kevinty'leven. If you really want to pwnzorg@#TAG!!!:(666!!!ione a creationist argument, it's best to start with dishonesty and liar-ship from creos.  It's not hard, and as so many have said before, it resonates with honest people.  Exxxxxpelled and the DI** are giving us tons of opportunities to talk about lying creo political thugs.  So have Hovind and Ham and so many others.  It's also good to bring up all the stupid YEC failures and laugh at them (how many times has a gold watch been found in coal strata?  noah's ark has been about to be found a couple of times in each decade for the last 100 years).  Then it is devastating to show how ID follows directly from all that old school Cray-ation Sceince.   There really is nothing new in all of this IDiocy.  Paley prepared it for sacrifice and Kant and Hume and Darwin and Dobzhansky and Morgan and Fisher and Wright and Haldane and Gould and Mayr pointed out where you could fuck it.  Right in the heart.  Attack their way of knowing. Caustic bitter acrid burning ridicule of stupid ways of thinking coupled with a clear satisfactory alternative win the day.  The clear satisfactory alternative is difficult to achieve when the discussion hinges around complex and academic issues.  Seriously how can you expect say my grandmaw to understand what is meant by species selection or Fst.  Keep it simple (why don't your local neighborhood geological features look like they're still dripping wet from Duh Flud?). My eleven cents.  been too busy to actually post about it *  Even here, I prefer the instant enlightenment model of Eno.   **  It is very easy to slip back into a quibble over minor details here.  For those who are paying attention to what some call the broader conversation over evolution and education, it may be even easier to demonstrate dishonesty and deception.  But if you are talking to some numbfuck from UD, well.... -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 09 2008,07:13    maybe that's where I'm at an advantage being both a scientist and a theist.  I can share how I rationalize both science and faith and maybe show them that there should be no burning at the stake and the two can coexist without conflict.  What a minute, didn't we talk about that once? :D

Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 09 2008,08:46    Quote (skeptic @ April 09 2008,13:13) maybe that's where I'm at an advantage being both a scientist and a theist.  I can share how I rationalize both science and faith and maybe show them that there should be no burning at the stake and the two can coexist without conflict.  What a minute, didn't we talk about that once? :D {slaps forehead} It would seem that you STILL miss the point of that thread. Oh well. Louis P.S. I think it is abundantly obvious that you don't rationalise your faith and science for any useful meaning of the word "rational". The phenomenon you're groping for is "cognitive dissonance". -------------- Bye.

dogdidit Posts: 315 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: April 09 2008,08:49    Quote (Nomad @ April 09 2008,03:35) On the other hand when I used to work with a YEC I did take issue with his denial of relativity.  His exact words were "an hour is an hour, no matter how fast you're going".  Unfortunately I didn't know then what I know now.  I didn't know that GPS satellites have to take time dilation into account to keep their clocks accurate compared to ground based systems.  I also didn't know that the effect had been measured by sending atomic clocks up into airliners. I really would have liked to see his response when I told him that this effect that he so smugly proclaimed didn't exist had not only been detected, but meant that GPS satellites had to make adjustments in their time keeping in order to work properly. I also once asked him what happened to the dinosaurs (like I said, he was a full on YEC).  His response, and I want to stress that he said this with a straight face, was that they had all been killed by a warrior king. He was a nice enough guy, it's not like he appeared to be barking mad if he wasn't discussing science or religion, but that warrior king thing let me know that I was wasting my time and that I'd better let it go in the interests of continuing workplace harmony. Actually that is a pretty good definition of relativity! An hour is an hour in one's own frame of reference. You might have gotten more purchase with your YEC friend had you confirmed his intuition by telling him that insistence on exactly that physical invariance led Einstein to his conclusions about reality: things had to be the way Special Relativity described them in order for that hour to remain an hour. Flattery gets your further (unless your goal is just to count coup) and to be honest, his intuition was valid. Following that intuition is what led to Einstein's remarkable insights. Besides, you needed to keep him talking. The warrior king thing? Priceless. Next time take notes; could be a novel or screenplay in there. -------------- "Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

J-Dog Posts: 4402 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 09 2008,08:58    Warrior King!~   I think pontificating about the warrior king theory will even get you tossed from UD!  Anybody still got a puppet that is willing to sacrifice itself for science sheer stupidity? That sounds so wack, I'm surprised it wasn't in Expelled.  I am positive that all the WK Theorists are being discriminated against too. -------------- Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10 Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08 UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 09 2008,11:29    Quote (Assassinator @ April 09 2008,00:52) [SNIP] I never really felt the urge to go into Amsterdam, I visited it once on our way to the popu-science museum Nemo, but I wouldn't call that a real visit to Amsterdam. When I watch that city on tv and what I've seen on that 1 trip myself, Amsterdam feels a bit...icky to me. Although I'm definatly not a christian boy, I'm pretty damned prudish on some things ;-) I've never been to Amsterdam for {ahem} THAT kind of thing. I assure you, despite humourous asides, my interest has only been herbal and cultural. Mainly cultural with occasional herbal thrown in. Okay one trip was mainly herbal with a lot of herbal thrown in. After all, I make drugs for a living, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that I should be curious about trying a few to see what all the fuss is about. ;-) Louis -------------- Bye.

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: April 09 2008,11:49    Warrior king? Didn't Xena kill him a while back?

slpage Posts: 349 Joined: June 2004 (Permalink) Posted: April 09 2008,14:13    The student body where I work is generally conservative.  I am developing an evolution class, but only a few of our classes directly touch on the subject. I've been here 8 years, and only twice had people question me directly about it, and only once have a student make anoffhand comment about it. One question blew me away - not THAT the question was asked, but when. I was teaching a comparative anatomy of the vertebrates class.  The first week is all background material - a brief overview of anatomical terms and the historical treatment of the field, then a day or two on why comparative anatomy even makes sense - evolution.  Can't cover much in 2 class periods, so I hit the basics - concepts like homology, cladistics, fossil record, etc.   So, we are about 10 weeks into the semester, doing dissections in lab one day, and this student, totally out of the blue, says, "Do you really believe in evoluton?" I was taken aback - why was she asking this NOW? Several students within earshot started paying attention, so I used it as a teaching opportunity (it was a class, after all).  I explained the difference between 'believing' it and acceoting it, and explained why, from my perspective, I accepted it.  She wasn't convinced, but she did not seem to be in a position to argue about it, at least she let the subject drop. But I generally only discuss the subject (cre v. evo) with colleagues.

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 09 2008,16:02    Quote (Louis @ April 09 2008,08:46) Quote (skeptic @ April 09 2008,13:13) maybe that's where I'm at an advantage being both a scientist and a theist.  I can share how I rationalize both science and faith and maybe show them that there should be no burning at the stake and the two can coexist without conflict.  What a minute, didn't we talk about that once? :D {slaps forehead} It would seem that you STILL miss the point of that thread. Oh well. Louis P.S. I think it is abundantly obvious that you don't rationalise your faith and science for any useful meaning of the word "rational". The phenomenon you're groping for is "cognitive dissonance". LOL, your comment leads me to the same conclusion in reverse.  I love the consistency of the Universe!

Nomad Posts: 311 Joined: July 2007 (Permalink) Posted: April 09 2008,23:25    Glad to see that the warrior king thing has been received well. I understand how the "hour is an hour no matter how fast you're moving" could be considered technically right, but at the same time that's not how he meant it.  It was sort of a similar sentiment to the oft uttered "but it's still a dog".  I also do get the point that I could have used that to try to flatter him by telling him how right he is about a complex subject, blah blah blah...  But I don't really see any benefit in heading in that direction.  The most that would have happened was that he'd have heard "you're right" and then would discard all mention of specifics and continue in his firm belief that relativity doesn't happen because it's contrary to his intuition about the world. The city that this happened in is a suburb of Chicago.  It's a fairly easy place to stereotype.  It's a city full of rich white people.  We're a city of middle management, loads of self important guys and their trophy wives.  The roads are choked with SUVs, and the supermarkets are filled with trophy wives (who drove SUVs to get there). It's not what I would characterize as a fundamentalist haven. The religious types that we have are more of the religious elitist grouping.  The ones who already have all the power and money, and are simply interested in retaining it. The individual I referred to was not one of those types, though.  He was closer to the image of the good American of a bygone era.  A mild mannered man with a firm belief in God, someone happy with his place and doing what he feels he's supposed to be doing.  Perhaps willfully ignorant, but not blatantly dishonest.  I'm sure he was doing and saying what he felt was right.  Which is why I really wish I could have pointed out that GPS satellites have to take relativity into account, I'd have liked to confront him with a bit of contrary evidence to see how he reacted.  I'm not saying I think he might have accepted it and changed altered his world view take it into account, I just wanted to see how he'd have denied it. In any case he's not really representative of the city.  You won't learn about him by knowing the city, or vice versa. In retrospect I'm still puzzled over the warrior king thing.  Like I said, this guy did not appear to be barking mad.  I don't know where he came up with this.  I can only guess that he had learned it from some authority figure and, as is the way of the faithful, had never questioned it. Or perhaps he was just messing with me.  It's not behavior I would normally have attributed to him, but... it's just so out there that it makes as much sense as any explanation.

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 10 2008,00:04    Actually I've heard a lot of YEC stuff and I never heard the warrior king thing.  The one I hear most often is they were allowed to drown in the flood since God did not command Noah to take them on the big boat.  Maybe he's been watching too many Rock movies.

Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 10 2008,03:20    Quote (skeptic @ April 09 2008,22:02) Quote (Louis @ April 09 2008,08:46) Quote (skeptic @ April 09 2008,13:13) maybe that's where I'm at an advantage being both a scientist and a theist.  I can share how I rationalize both science and faith and maybe show them that there should be no burning at the stake and the two can coexist without conflict.  What a minute, didn't we talk about that once? :D {slaps forehead} It would seem that you STILL miss the point of that thread. Oh well. Louis P.S. I think it is abundantly obvious that you don't rationalise your faith and science for any useful meaning of the word "rational". The phenomenon you're groping for is "cognitive dissonance". LOL, your comment leads me to the same conclusion in reverse.  I love the consistency of the Universe! Strange isn't it how, erm, no one agrees with your assessment, Skeptic. Equally strange how you cannot find one thing to support this claim (or indeed any claim) of yours whilst I have repeatedly supported mine. Even stranger is how you still cannot even begin to deal with the substance of the arguments made and instead have to repeat your ignorant caricatures of them. Louis -------------- Bye.

BWE Posts: 1902 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 10 2008,08:18    Louis, it doesn't seem strange to me. How is it strange? -------------- Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered When wished on the morning star Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it Look what it's done so far The Daily Wingnut

Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 10 2008,09:26    Quote (BWE @ April 10 2008,14:18) Louis, it doesn't seem strange to me. How is it strange? LOL It's not strange for me, it's strange for Skeptic if his assessment is to be accurate. After all the facts don't seem to match Skeptic's assessment but they seem to match mine. So it's strange that Skeptic's assessment is obviously correct and mine isn't, right? After all, those pesky facts seem to support my assessment but obviously we're not at home to Messers Facts and Evidence now are we? ;-) Louis -------------- Bye.

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 10 2008,11:56    sorry, bait not taken.

Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 10 2008,12:18    Quote (skeptic @ April 10 2008,17:56) sorry, bait not taken. What bait? And if there is bait and you aren't taking it why are you telling us you aren't taking it? Seems like taking bait to me, if bait there is of course. Just face facts Skeptic, you yet again conclusively demonstrated your utter cluelessness on that thread and no one (least of all me) will let you forget it. Perhaps you should have the simple common sense and humility to erm, well, learn. Stop talking big and failing to back it up. Louis -------------- Bye.

BWE Posts: 1902 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 11 2008,03:15    Quote (skeptic @ April 10 2008,11:56) sorry, bait not taken. Ah, I just cant fool a master baiter. -------------- Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered When wished on the morning star Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it Look what it's done so far The Daily Wingnut

huwp Posts: 172 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 11 2008,08:16    Quote BWE Posted on April 11 2008,03:15 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ah, I just cant fool a master baiter. But some people do go onan on! Edit: Because I'm awfully proud of having an edit button and to say that I didn't mean anyone in particular was going on and on, it just seemed like too good an opportunity to miss.

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