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Antievolution.org Discussion Board > From the Panda's Thumb > After the Bar Closes... > Atheism as a religion:

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Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 24 2007,12:13    http://beastrabban.wordpress.com/2007....ent-373 http://beastrabban.wordpress.com/2007....-part-2 They've rolled out Mary Midgeley. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Annyday Posts: 583 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 24 2007,13:18    Why does he have twenty-five citations, mostly from the same book? What's the point of that? I wrote a short blurb examining the fallacious logic, but I think I'll wordpress it over there instead. Suffice to say, I should never have been allowed to learn formal logic, as I am mean with it. -------------- "ALL eight of the "nature" miracles of Jesus could have been accomplished via the electroweak quantum tunneling mechanism. For example, walking on water could be accomplished by directing a neutrino beam created just below Jesus' feet downward." - Frank Tipler, ISCID fellow

Annyday Posts: 583 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 24 2007,13:43    What the hell, I'll post it here while it awaits moderation. Quote Your logical fallacies are showing. All objects of type A are both B and C. Some objects of type D are B. Therefore, all objects of type D are also C. Therefore, all objects of type D are A, or D = A. The bulk of your “argument” is essentially emphasizing, in detail, how much “some objects of type D are B”, and nearly completely ignoring the question of whether B is a defining feature of either D or A. I’ll give you an example: All atheists do not believe in God, and do not believe in a divinely guided morality. Some Christians doubt the existence of God. Therefore, no Christians believe in a divinely guided morality either. Therefore, Christianity is atheism. Or: “Up” is a direction along an axis. “Down” is the opposite of “up”. however “Down” is also a direction along an axis. Therefore, “down” is the same as “up”. Therefore, “down” is the opposite of itself. I could go on to “prove” that all Christians are secretly Confucians, all Hindus are Muslim, that hot is cold, and so on. I could quote long passages of crisis-of-faith, why-have-you-forsaken-me Christian poetry “proving” that Christianity is atheism. If I went on for a really long time about this, it might have the sheen of professional philosophy and good rhetoric that you display. The logic would still be crap, however. -------------- "ALL eight of the "nature" miracles of Jesus could have been accomplished via the electroweak quantum tunneling mechanism. For example, walking on water could be accomplished by directing a neutrino beam created just below Jesus' feet downward." - Frank Tipler, ISCID fellow

Albatrossity2 Posts: 2780 Joined: Mar. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 24 2007,15:00    Quote (Richardthughes @ Dec. 24 2007,12:13) http://beastrabban.wordpress.com/2007....ent-373 http://beastrabban.wordpress.com/2007....-part-2 They've rolled out Mary Midgeley. Rich I was scanning your comments, and got a chuckle out of your description of her a an "odious tard". I'm still chuckling as I type this in fact; it just rolls off the tongue so elegantly. Odious tard. Odious tard. It's a keeper! More to the point, although I admit I didn't read all those screeds religiously (pun intended), I didn't see any answer to this question. Who cares if atheism is a religion, or not? What's the point of discussing this? If you get to be a bishop or poobah or grand wizard of atheism, do you get stuff (special place in heaven, tax breaks, extra spouses, etc.)? Do you get to turn non-atheists into toads or lizards or numbats or ??? Is there any consequence if it is a religion, or not?  Seems like a lot of smoke and no fire to me. But if there is something I missed, I'd appreciate it if you could fill me in. thanks -------------- Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind Has been obligated from the beginning To create an ordered universe As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.                         - Pattiann Rogers

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 24 2007,15:25    Creationists seem very keen to frame: Atheism as faith Faith as science Science as faith So that they may bend rules. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

J-Dog Posts: 4402 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 24 2007,15:42    I remember going a couple of rounds on this very subject with DaveScot and FTK this past summer before she started censoring people.   Dave could not comprehend that a non-belief in something is not a religion, so I condemmed him to hell for all eternity.  Fun for me, cold-sweats and nightmares for him.  Can't beat fun in the summer! -------------- Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10 Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08 UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

Albatrossity2 Posts: 2780 Joined: Mar. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 24 2007,15:51    Quote (Richardthughes @ Dec. 24 2007,15:25) Creationists seem very keen to frame: Atheism as faith Faith as science Science as faith So that they may bend rules. Yes, I do understand the illogical argument atheism=faith; therefore science (which is assumed to be atheistic)=faith. But as you note, it seems to require three separate illogical steps. Atheism = faith is unconvincing, as you have pointed out there. Faith = science is even more unconvincing, and only idiots (who have never engaged in science) would fall for it. It is completely contradicted the the fact that new data will cause a true scientist to change his/her mind, but new data will never dislodge faith from the truly faithful. Atheism = science is also very unconvincing, since scientists of all faiths can still be productive scientists. So if you have to string together three tenuous assertions before you can "bend the rules", it seems pretty weak, at least to me. Has he admitted that this is where he wants to go?  If not, the "So what?" question (Even if I assume that you are right, so what?)  should smoke him out. -------------- Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind Has been obligated from the beginning To create an ordered universe As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.                         - Pattiann Rogers

Annyday Posts: 583 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 24 2007,16:28    It's not about being "convincing", it's an emotional appeal that follows only the internal logic of a certain religious bent. When you see the entire world through lenses of good and evil and religious faith, casual atheism or even the existence of facts unrelated to faith are basically incomprehensible. So instead of taking "atheist" to mean "well-confirmed agnostic", which is basically what it means, they ramble about Marxism and positivism and "evolutionism" as if they're rival cults. It's better to have a heathen enemy, with false idols and the whole nine yards, than to be dismissed. -------------- "ALL eight of the "nature" miracles of Jesus could have been accomplished via the electroweak quantum tunneling mechanism. For example, walking on water could be accomplished by directing a neutrino beam created just below Jesus' feet downward." - Frank Tipler, ISCID fellow

guthrie Posts: 696 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 24 2007,16:46    As far as I'm concerned, anyone who calls himself "Beastrabban" is a dolt.

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 24 2007,16:50    Quote (guthrie @ Dec. 24 2007,16:46) As far as I'm concerned, anyone who calls himself "Beastrabban" is a dolt. Its from "Dune" -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

guthrie Posts: 696 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 24 2007,16:54    Quote (Richardthughes @ Dec. 24 2007,16:50) Quote (guthrie @ Dec. 24 2007,16:46) As far as I'm concerned, anyone who calls himself "Beastrabban" is a dolt. Its from "Dune" I knew that.  I have read the entire sextet more times than I care to remember.  That is why anyone calling themselves beast rabban is a dolt, because the character is, apart from being  a minor one, basically a thug.  The entity whose blog we are discussing would appear to either like Dune, in which case it would be nice to see what they think of it, or else is being provocative. If you use teh google, this turns up: http://rationalperspective.wordpress.com/about/ Quote We are a group of students concerned with a variety of controversial philosophical, scientific, ethical, and religious issues. The title of our blog is meant to express a commitment to sober-minded, intellectually responsible discussion. We assume the classical principles of logic and we uphold the stylistic virtues of clarity and precision. Although the issues we treat are wide-ranging, an ongoing theme in this blog is the articulation and defense of philosophical theism. We reject the new militant (better: dogmatic) atheism, the “brights” movement, new age fluff, and moral and epistemological relativism. So far, so good, but I'm afraid that anyone who goes on about evolutionism is a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic.

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 24 2007,17:04    I'm pretty sure evolutionism is a religion. I cite the authorities of Midgeley, D' Souza and Coulter. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

guthrie Posts: 696 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 24 2007,17:05    And more ammo: http://post-darwinist.blogspot.com/2007....an.html Quote Unfortunately, this is the problem. Dawkins does write well, and this has impressed people despite the poverty of of his own ideas and the viciousness of the abuse he directs at those not sharing his own nasty reductionist views. Does beast rabban realise that he is associating with people unable to argue coherently? http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....-europe Quote Now let’s turn the the Draft Proposal’s assumption that ID is a science stopper on its head. Actually, it can easily be considered that the real science stopper here is European-wide scientific diktats imposing a politically motivated scientific uniformity on the member states. mmmm, smell the stupidity.  Beast Rabban appears very well informed about various aspects of history, religion, and politics, but poorly informed as to their relation to any form of "reality".

guthrie Posts: 696 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 24 2007,17:09    Quote (Richardthughes @ Dec. 24 2007,17:04) I'm pretty sure evolutionism is a religion. I cite the authorities of Midgeley, D' Souza and Coulter. Of course they are unipeachable sources of logical ideas.   To cut to the chase- are you an atheist because you believe that no gods exist, or because you have not come across any evidence to make you believe in a deity? In the former case, you could suggest there is a religious element namely belief.  In the latter, I do not think so. AS for evolutionism, it is something which doesn't exist except in the fevered minds of people who don't trouble themselves with actual science.  It is probably a social construct, kind of like racism.  Its existence, if it does exist, no more damages Evolutionary biology than the existence of HIV damages Behe's religious faith.

guthrie Posts: 696 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 24 2007,17:18    Well, I've read more.  BEast Rabban isn't that stupid.  They do seem wedded to a peculiar world view though.  It's interesting to see them post on ID websites, and their posts get completely ignored, presumably because they are too erudite.  So what is Beasts aim?

guthrie Posts: 696 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 24 2007,17:33    Finally, if you want someone else to invite here, how about this guy: http://creationevolutiondesign.blogspot.com/ They describe themselves thus: "I am an Australian Christian old-Earth creationist/IDist biologist who accepts universal common ancestry (but not evolution)." But they seem altogether too normal.  Or do you prefer lunatics?

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 24 2007,17:35    Quote (guthrie @ Dec. 24 2007,17:33) Finally, if you want someone else to invite here, how about this guy: http://creationevolutiondesign.blogspot.com/ They describe themselves thus: "I am an Australian Christian old-Earth creationist/IDist biologist who accepts universal common ancestry (but not evolution)." But they seem altogether too normal.  Or do you prefer lunatics? I only invite once they play the censorship card. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

guthrie Posts: 696 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 24 2007,17:36    Quote (Richardthughes @ Dec. 24 2007,17:35) ahh, fair enough.  A sensible tactic.

UnMark Posts: 97 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 24 2007,17:37    Quote (guthrie @ Dec. 24 2007,16:46) As far as I'm concerned, anyone who calls himself "Beastrabban" is a dolt. I was considering mentioning the paradox, but I decided it'd be simply construed as ranting, or somesuch.  In the Prelude to Dune prequels, Rabban is considerably more severe, in my opinion, than a mere thug.  But I'm assuming true Dune fans haven't read Brian and Kevin's mediocre attempts to continue Frank's story. "Prove God is necessary." "Easy!  He's necessary because I say He's necessary."  :O

guthrie Posts: 696 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 24 2007,17:41    Quote (UnMark @ Dec. 24 2007,17:37)  But I'm assuming true Dune fans haven't read Brian and Kevin's mediocre attempts to continue Frank's story. You assume correctly.  I have House atreides and house harkonnen waiting for when I can be bothered.  The 7th Dune book is out soon or now, or something, and I might have a look at it later, but I would rather read Herberts notes than a book.

Reciprocating Bill Posts: 4265 Joined: Oct. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 24 2007,17:58    Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Dec. 24 2007,16:00) Who cares if atheism is a religion, or not? What's the point of discussing this? That was my reaction. "Who cares?" I said to myself. Particularly, "Who cares if atheism is in some respects analogous to religion, in others not so much?" Well, that's a paraphrase. "Ho fucking hum" is what I really said. -------------- Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be. "The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." - David Foster Wallace "Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down." - Barry Arrington

UnMark Posts: 97 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 24 2007,18:05    Frank's proposed 7th book was broken up into two - Hunters and Sandworms.  Hunters ends on a bit of a cliffhanger.  I read Hunters last winter and the 6 "Legend" and "Prelude" books over the summer.  I recieved Sandworms for Xmas this year - I'll start reading it when I'm done with The Gospel of the Flying Speghetti Monster (seriously).

Assassinator Posts: 479 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 24 2007,18:10    Quote To cut to the chase- are you an atheist because you believe that no gods exist, or because you have not come across any evidence to make you believe in a deity? I thought that was the difference between agnostism and atheďsm. If your an agnostic, you're not saying anything about the existance of a deity because there isn't any evidence pointing towards both options. And if you're an atheďst, you beleive that deity's don't exist. I alwayse thought that was the difference.

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 24 2007,18:10    Quote (UnMark @ Dec. 24 2007,18:05)  I recieved Sandworms for Xmas this year Didn't cook your Turkey properly? -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 24 2007,18:12    Quote (Assassinator @ Dec. 24 2007,18:10) Quote To cut to the chase- are you an atheist because you believe that no gods exist, or because you have not come across any evidence to make you believe in a deity? I thought that was the difference between agnostism and atheďsm. If your an agnostic, you're not saying anything about the existance of a deity because there isn't any evidence pointing towards both options. And if you're an atheďst, you beleive that deity's don't exist. I alwayse thought that was the difference. Agnosticism adresses the epistemological question "can man know?", I think. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Annyday Posts: 583 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 24 2007,18:47    There are rather few "atheists" in the sense of people believing they have positive evidence against God. I don't really know of any at all, actually. "Agnostic" is just a word that Thomas Huxley used to dodge the pejorative and generally evil connotations of atheism, while meaning basically the same thing. For serious. -------------- "ALL eight of the "nature" miracles of Jesus could have been accomplished via the electroweak quantum tunneling mechanism. For example, walking on water could be accomplished by directing a neutrino beam created just below Jesus' feet downward." - Frank Tipler, ISCID fellow

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 24 2007,19:07    Well, my posts aren't going through any more. Disappointed, but not surprised. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Annyday Posts: 583 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 24 2007,19:25    Ilion accused you of denying your own existence, man. You've been pwned pretty hard. Do you want to sit down? -------------- "ALL eight of the "nature" miracles of Jesus could have been accomplished via the electroweak quantum tunneling mechanism. For example, walking on water could be accomplished by directing a neutrino beam created just below Jesus' feet downward." - Frank Tipler, ISCID fellow

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 24 2007,19:33    Quote (Annyday @ Dec. 24 2007,19:25) Ilion accused you of denying your own existence, man. You've been pwned pretty hard. Do you want to sit down? I don't have much choice. God is real because the universe need him, or something. Bodes well for Superman... -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Lou FCD Posts: 5455 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 24 2007,20:02    Posted this, it's awaiting moderation...   Quote (Lou FCD Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation. December 25 @ 2007 at 2:00 am ) A worshiper of Zeus might say the same thing. I’m genuinely interested in what makes you believe that Yahweh is legitimately The One True God, while Zeus (or any one of the gajillion other gods) is not. No snark, just curious. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

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