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  Topic: A Separate Thread for Gary Gaulin, As big as the poop that does not look< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 14 2016,20:24   

OK, so let's examine your post over at Kurzweil.

   
Quote
Why can't all of that be in the rudimentary behavior of any self-learning system?

Could be, but that's speculation, without evidence.

     
Quote
After connecting sensors to memory in a way that guesses get taken when necessary you get a controlling system capable of both kindness and ruthlessness.

Assertion, without evidence.

     
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In all cases it mostly depends whether you're a companion, offspring, pet, or for lunch. Some animals have brains that cause them to eat their own young, but they still exist. You can say that their brains evolved to be that way, but it's maybe more likely that they were always that way.
There is no "always" in geological time and biological lineages.

     
Quote
The same with our behavior, for as long as we have had the human brain design.

Two assertions, without evidence, one large regarding our past behavior, and a huge assumption that begs your conclusions by reference without basis to "human brain design".

   
Quote
In this case genetic system designed neurons figured out how to add a new capability then it was suddenly there in the population.

False claim that genetic systems design anything (begging your conclusions again), false claim that they "figure anything out", unsupported assertion that something new arrived suddenly.   Might have, but no evidence provided.

     
Quote
Its origin coincides with a "chromosome speciation" event in our past where descendants no longer had the 48 chromosome design.
Speculation, without evidence.  Might have, but didn't have to.

     
Quote
There may have been relatively sudden changes in our behavior caused by what the new capabilities resulted in, where for better or worse we just had to make the best of it.
Could be, but assertion without support.


     
Quote
Our genetic systems might have something more like a built-in morphological plasticity that goes where it wants to go and we end wanting the same.

Assertion without support for "built-in plasticity".  "Goes where it wants to go" is again begging your desired conclusions about how life works, without any supporting evidence whatsoever.

     
Quote
After being poorly adapted for life in a tree we don't want to live in one anymore. An ape that wants nothing more than that would find our path to be more like a devolution, but of course we don't value the same things so we don't care what they would think. Smart birds have reasons to see cars as being our way of dealing with the handicap of not having wings.
 Fanciful delusions.  No evidence suggests that other apes or birds think at that level.

     
Quote
We have big brains that can usually outthink other animals but we need that when otherwise no match against the strength of lions and bears.
OK, if you add in hands that can manipulate weapons.

     
Quote
A "necessity is the mother of invention" sort of thing that sent prehistoric ancestors up the trees in the first place, we only came back down again.

Not an interpretable sentence.

     
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The ability to run on land would have been already there, to express again.

Unsupported speculation, and probably false.  Not all arboreal creatures are able to run well on the ground.  Sloths, sifaka, flying squirrels, gibbons, orang-utans.

     
Quote
What you then end up with for morphology is what we became. More like switching to another possible mode or direction that only goes one way, after that.
Two unsupported assertions.

Quote
We can end up with big brains to reason with but we then become a danger to even ourselves with our technology. In that case you can add that we evolved to become a threat to other life on this planet. It's then clearly more like a political statement than actual help explaining our origin.

OK

     
Quote
The same is in a way true of other analogies that do not help model what actually did happen, where there was a chromosome fusion speciation event followed by us 46's having to make the best of being reproductively isolated from the 48's and whatever changes that caused or will later cause.
 Robertsonian fusion can cause speciation by reproductive isolation, but it doesn't have to.  Some species do fine indefinitely for many generations with polymorphisms in chromosome number.  However, the process might well start differentiation of alleles on different chromosomes.  About one in a thousand newborn humans has a Robertsonian translocation, most commonly between chromosomes 13 and 14, 14 and 21, and 14 and 15, and we aren't really bothered or affected by any of it.  Most likely the fusion happened in our ancestry after we had already split from the branch that gave rise to chimps: http://www.askabiologist.org.uk/answers....id=4413


     
Quote
It's again back to the very basics of evidence.
False statement.  You can't go back to evidence if you haven't yet provided any.

     
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This time systems biology related, where there are molecular level circuits to model.
Not a sentence, no idea what you mean.

     
Quote
Thinking in terms of mutation and selection does not help program them.
Obviously false.  You don't understand them at all, and so you can't model them, or even critique them competently.

In short, your post is your typical pile of garbage - mostly unsupported assertions, with absolutely no supporting evidence.  Some wrong stuff, some incomprehensible, execrably written stuff, some stuff that begs your desired conclusions.  

Some of your speculations might be right, but that just doesn't matter - you provide absolutely no reason for anyone to agree with, or even bother to think about, your conclusions.  The fact that they seem self-evident to you is irrelevant.  Note that you neither get nor deserve any benefit of the doubt here, because the fact that you are nearly always wrong (about anything that you can be pinned down on) gives your audience zero confidence in your judgment.

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 14 2016,21:27   

N.Wells you did not provide evidence against what I said.

An initial minimal loss of fertility only helps get us off to a good start.

But try this geology tour in widescreen mode:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNqcNH7ez4k#t=453.476823

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 14 2016,21:29   

Use this link, the other starts later into it:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNqcNH7ez4k

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 14 2016,23:05   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Aug. 14 2016,21:27)
N.Wells you did not provide evidence against what I said.

An initial minimal loss of fertility only helps get us off to a good start.


So now you are concerned about people not providing evidence?  However, as it turns out, I did, but you failed to notice it.  It was covered in the link (and also in the MJD White book on chromosomal evolution that I've recommended to you in the past - we've had this discussion before), and in my comment that, "About one in a thousand newborn humans has a Robertsonian translocation, most commonly between chromosomes 13 and 14, 14 and 21, and 14 and 15", and we aren't really bothered or affected by any of it.  You don't hear about it because it's typically not a problem, unlike, say, trisomy-21.

Changes in chromosome number can on occasion lower fertility and may initiate reproductive isolation, and are indeed likely to start the process of limiting allele crossovers between individual chromosomes even while both versions of the chromosomes are still with single individuals and mixing freely within the population.  However, multiple numerically mismatched chromosomes can link up in various non-standard configurations to avoid problems during reproduction (read any genetics text over the last 60 years or so).

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 15 2016,05:22   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Aug. 14 2016,22:27)
N.Wells you did not provide evidence against what I said.

An initial minimal loss of fertility only helps get us off to a good start.

But try this geology tour in widescreen mode:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNqcNH7ez4k#t=453.476823

What more evidence is required to demonstrate that you make assertions without evidence, often without meaning, then to present those assertions and meaningless word assembles?
res ipsa loquitur

N.Wells provided all the evidence necessary to show, once again, that you are wildly fantasizing and reporting incoherently on the results.
I've heard better notions from acid casualties.

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 15 2016,16:30   

Quote (N.Wells @ Aug. 14 2016,23:05)
Quote (GaryGaulin @ Aug. 14 2016,21:27)
N.Wells you did not provide evidence against what I said.

An initial minimal loss of fertility only helps get us off to a good start.


So now you are concerned about people not providing evidence?  However, as it turns out, I did, but you failed to notice it.  It was covered in the link (and also in the MJD White book on chromosomal evolution that I've recommended to you in the past - we've had this discussion before), and in my comment that, "About one in a thousand newborn humans has a Robertsonian translocation, most commonly between chromosomes 13 and 14, 14 and 21, and 14 and 15", and we aren't really bothered or affected by any of it.  You don't hear about it because it's typically not a problem, unlike, say, trisomy-21.

Changes in chromosome number can on occasion lower fertility and may initiate reproductive isolation, and are indeed likely to start the process of limiting allele crossovers between individual chromosomes even while both versions of the chromosomes are still with single individuals and mixing freely within the population.  However, multiple numerically mismatched chromosomes can link up in various non-standard configurations to avoid problems during reproduction (read any genetics text over the last 60 years or so).

You are supposed to be addressing this:
Quote
What is most important to me is new knowledge of how the most simple to most complex self-learning systems work. Instead of generalizations like "kind" I need something to help computer model what is in essence the origin of life, very first biological intelligence(s).

www.kurzweilai.net/forums/topic/despite-what-you-might-think-humans-actually-evolved-to-be-kind#post-768742


I am not looking for another best guess what might be true. The internet is already full of them.

I expect a model that makes reliable predictions in regards to morphological changes over the past 6 million years. The only thing you gave me is a lame excuse for scientific laziness.

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 15 2016,16:47   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Aug. 15 2016,16:30)
 
Quote (N.Wells @ Aug. 14 2016,23:05)
   
Quote (GaryGaulin @ Aug. 14 2016,21:27)
N.Wells you did not provide evidence against what I said.

An initial minimal loss of fertility only helps get us off to a good start.


So now you are concerned about people not providing evidence?  However, as it turns out, I did, but you failed to notice it.  It was covered in the link (and also in the MJD White book on chromosomal evolution that I've recommended to you in the past - we've had this discussion before), and in my comment that, "About one in a thousand newborn humans has a Robertsonian translocation, most commonly between chromosomes 13 and 14, 14 and 21, and 14 and 15", and we aren't really bothered or affected by any of it.  You don't hear about it because it's typically not a problem, unlike, say, trisomy-21.

Changes in chromosome number can on occasion lower fertility and may initiate reproductive isolation, and are indeed likely to start the process of limiting allele crossovers between individual chromosomes even while both versions of the chromosomes are still with single individuals and mixing freely within the population.  However, multiple numerically mismatched chromosomes can link up in various non-standard configurations to avoid problems during reproduction (read any genetics text over the last 60 years or so).

You are supposed to be addressing this:
   
Quote
What is most important to me is new knowledge of how the most simple to most complex self-learning systems work. Instead of generalizations like "kind" I need something to help computer model what is in essence the origin of life, very first biological intelligence(s).

www.kurzweilai.net/forums/topic/despite-what-you-might-think-humans-actually-evolved-to-be-kind#post-768742


I am not looking for another best guess what might be true. The internet is already full of them.

I expect a model that makes reliable predictions in regards to morphological changes over the past 6 million years. The only thing you gave me is a lame excuse for scientific laziness.

Wow, you really are shifting those goal posts as fast as you can tap dance!

Gary #1:  
Quote
This forum should be discussing a far more serious credibility problem such as:
 
Quote

My opinion: Evolutionary Psychologists can't seem to get their story straight!
www.kurzweilai.net/forums/topic/despite-what-you-might-think-humans-actually-evolved-to-be-kind


So I did, and showed that what you had was all unsupported speculation.  So.....

Gary #2:  
Quote
N.Wells you did not provide evidence against what I said.  An initial minimal loss of fertility only helps get us off to a good start.


Well, actually, I had already provided the relevant evidence, so.......

Gary #3:  
Quote
You are supposed to be addressing this:
   
Quote
What is most important to me is new knowledge of how the most simple to most complex self-learning systems work. Instead of generalizations like "kind" I need something to help computer model what is in essence the origin of life, very first biological intelligence(s).


What you are looking for is justification of your pet ideas.  You are uninterested in anything that you cannot force-fit into that box.  

However, your model has absolutely nothing to do with the origin of life.  It doesn't involve biochemistry, molecular interactions, simple genes, generations of prebiotic compounds or early biotic "individuals".  You still lack a decent operational definition for "intelligence", and have not yet shown that intelligence has anything to do with molecules or vice versa.

You are the one being lazy - do the work required to show people why they should take you seriously.  So far, you are not even presenting a viable guess, let alone a best guess.

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 15 2016,17:06   

Let us also note that his "model" makes no predictions.  None at all.

It is false to fact in general, woefully inadequate in every respect wherin it is not false.
It abuses the term "learn" and irs variants in ways starkly contradictory to the standard usage in Cognitive Science.
It lacks any shred of explanatory power.  This, in conjunction with its inability to make predictions, renders it a work of fiction, not science.
Unpublishably bad fiction at that.

  
Texas Teach



Posts: 2084
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 15 2016,17:28   

Quote (NoName @ Aug. 15 2016,17:06)
Let us also note that his "model" makes no predictions.  None at all.

It is false to fact in general, woefully inadequate in every respect wherin it is not false.
It abuses the term "learn" and irs variants in ways starkly contradictory to the standard usage in Cognitive Science.
It lacks any shred of explanatory power.  This, in conjunction with its inability to make predictions, renders it a work of fiction, not science.
Unpublishably bad fiction at that.

His claim that his model predicts the Cambrian Explosion is one of the funniest things ever.

--------------
"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2016,00:39   

Quote (Texas Teach @ Aug. 15 2016,17:28)
Quote (NoName @ Aug. 15 2016,17:06)
Let us also note that his "model" makes no predictions.  None at all.

It is false to fact in general, woefully inadequate in every respect wherin it is not false.
It abuses the term "learn" and irs variants in ways starkly contradictory to the standard usage in Cognitive Science.
It lacks any shred of explanatory power.  This, in conjunction with its inability to make predictions, renders it a work of fiction, not science.
Unpublishably bad fiction at that.

His claim that his model predicts the Cambrian Explosion is one of the funniest things ever.

You should not be teaching science.

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
ChemiCat



Posts: 532
Joined: Nov. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2016,01:51   

Quote
You should not be teaching science.


Says the science wannabe who cannot even begin to understand the scientific process, who can only supply a list of unevidenced assertions, who cannot accept that the scientific evidence totally disproves his assertions, who still insists that molecular intelligence proves his god.

Still here I see, Gaulin. Having trouble working out how a door works?

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2016,02:24   

Quote (N.Wells @ Aug. 15 2016,16:47)
Gary #1:      
Quote
This forum should be discussing a far more serious credibility problem such as:
     
Quote

My opinion: Evolutionary Psychologists can't seem to get their story straight!
www.kurzweilai.net/forums/topic/despite-what-you-might-think-humans-actually-evolved-to-be-kind


So I did, and showed that what you had was all unsupported speculation.  So.....

Perhaps I need to point out that I was NOT the one who said "Evolutionary Psychologists can't seem to get their story straight!"

You are trying to brush off a serious credibility problem that has nothing at all to do with me.

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2016,05:32   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Aug. 16 2016,03:24)
 
Quote (N.Wells @ Aug. 15 2016,16:47)
Gary #1:          
Quote
This forum should be discussing a far more serious credibility problem such as:
       
Quote

My opinion: Evolutionary Psychologists can't seem to get their story straight!
www.kurzweilai.net/forums/topic/despite-what-you-might-think-humans-actually-evolved-to-be-kind


So I did, and showed that what you had was all unsupported speculation.  So.....

Perhaps I need to point out that I was NOT the one who said "Evolutionary Psychologists can't seem to get their story straight!"

You are trying to brush off a serious credibility problem that has nothing at all to do with me.

You're getting worse at this tawdry maneuver.
You raised the issue to deflect attention from your latest batch of errors.
We pointed out that it is irrelevant to both your 'work' and the purpose of this thread.
Now you're sliding into the error where any perceived, or known, problem in any area of science that you fantasize your notions apply to validates your notions.
This too is false.

You don't get to have your "theory" accepted as the default that other theories must triumph over.  That would be a disgraceful role-reversal and inversion of propriety were your notions actually a theory.  As your poorly expressed heap of inept notions is not, by any stretch, a theory, it is a predictable, utterly laughable, exposure of your mental failings to make such a rhetorical move.

You have nothing to offer to the problems that evolutionary psychology wrestles with.  You don't even know what the field is about, let alone the interplay between it and Cognitive Science.

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2016,05:35   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Aug. 16 2016,01:39)
Quote (Texas Teach @ Aug. 15 2016,17:28)
Quote (NoName @ Aug. 15 2016,17:06)
Let us also note that his "model" makes no predictions.  None at all.

It is false to fact in general, woefully inadequate in every respect wherin it is not false.
It abuses the term "learn" and irs variants in ways starkly contradictory to the standard usage in Cognitive Science.
It lacks any shred of explanatory power.  This, in conjunction with its inability to make predictions, renders it a work of fiction, not science.
Unpublishably bad fiction at that.

His claim that his model predicts the Cambrian Explosion is one of the funniest things ever.

You should not be teaching science.

You are not qualified to judge.
Having never been taught science, having not even the most rudimentary knowledge of what science is nor how it works, you don't even know what science teachers do.

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2016,05:52   

In a reply I just wrote I have new material to copy-paste into the paper, I'm still working on:
www.kurzweilai.net/forums/topic/what-is-intelligence-1#post-768934

This helped find something I sensed missing, but did not know how to word.

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2016,06:07   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Aug. 16 2016,06:52)
In a reply I just wrote I have new material to copy-paste into the paper, I'm still working on...

This helped find something I sensed missing, but did not know how to word.

Still a parasite, guided by fellings, not knowledge.

But we have long known that you don't know how to word.  You don't even know how to express your own ineptitude.
LOL

  
ChemiCat



Posts: 532
Joined: Nov. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2016,07:42   

From Gaulin's post at Kurzweil;

Quote
As in our imagination there can be an internal world model representation of our body interacting with its environment, which qualifies as a (virtual) body to control that is in addition to the body it emulates. We this way test various actions in our mind, before actually performing them. Other animals likewise plan their actions, and have an imagination they fills their dreams that have them moving their legs and feet in ways that make it obvious they dream too.


This is supposed to make sense? Is English your first and only language? Try running your paragraph through Google translate, it would make for better communication than this crap.



Quote
As in our imagination...


Imagination, another word you do not understand and is now added to the Gaulin Not-a-dictionary.

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2016,08:16   

Quote (ChemiCat @ Aug. 16 2016,08:42)
From Gaulin's post at Kurzweil;

Quote
As in our imagination there can be an internal world model representation of our body interacting with its environment, which qualifies as a (virtual) body to control that is in addition to the body it emulates. We this way test various actions in our mind, before actually performing them. Other animals likewise plan their actions, and have an imagination they fills their dreams that have them moving their legs and feet in ways that make it obvious they dream too.


This is supposed to make sense? Is English your first and only language? Try running your paragraph through Google translate, it would make for better communication than this crap.



Quote
As in our imagination...


Imagination, another word you do not understand and is now added to the Gaulin Not-a-dictionary.

It is also an appallingly simple-minded, and very wrong-headed, perspective on the lived body.
Gestalt Psychology has mustered plenty of facts and evidence to render that sort of 'just so' story ludicrous.  And that work was done close to 100 years ago.

Gary really does fit the description of her clients the physicist with the 'help line' spoke of.
Illiterate in all the fields he claims to use, claims to have supplanted, claims to be 'going beyond'.
It barely rises to the level of embarrassing -- it's like a child who's heard of Shakespeare trying to read a Moliere play in the original French presented as a 'long lost Shakespeare play' and pouting that his reviews aren't superlative.  Nor his discovery taken seriously.

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2016,09:07   

Here's a nasty little set of problems for you, Gary.
Your notions do not even admit that such circumstances can occur -- your 'circuit diagram' rejects the possibility of such phenomena:
How is it we don't remember the flood of sensations we are subject to when we sleep?
How is it that we can remember dreams?  How does 'sensory addressed memory' help explain this?
How is it that some sensations are 'taken in' by the dreaming mind and folded into the dreaming experience?
Out of the roaring flood of "sensations" impacting us every moment, how is it we remember that a city we have never visited exists?  Or the Pythagorean theorem?  Or the Law of Excluded Middle?

Your entirely naive and simple-minded notion of 'sensory addressed memory' is not merely useless, it is false.  Proust notwithstanding.
I am not denying a relationship between experience and memory.  I
am denying that you have even the vaguest clue of what experience and memory really are nor how they actually function.

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2016,19:40   

Hippocampo-cortical coupling mediates memory consolidation during sleep
home.uchicago.edu/~arij/journalclub/papers/2016_Maingret_al.pdf
www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v19/n7/full/nn.4304.html

How a memory consolidates memories depends on what kind of memory it is. Electronic RAM chips consolidate memories in a single "write" operation. As a result the ID Lab critter never has to sleep. This is beyond the capabilities of a typical human memory system but there are a small number of people with almost that level of memory retention.

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 18 2016,06:56   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Aug. 17 2016,20:40)
Hippocampo-cortical coupling mediates memory consolidation during sleep
home.uchicago.edu/~arij/journalclub/papers/2016_Maingret_al.pdf
www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v19/n7/full/nn.4304.html

How a memory consolidates memories depends on what kind of memory it is. Electronic RAM chips consolidate memories in a single "write" operation. As a result the ID Lab critter never has to sleep. This is beyond the capabilities of a typical human memory system but there are a small number of people with almost that level of memory retention.

That the "hippocampo-cortical coupling' may mediate memory consolidation is neither a premise nor a prediction of your "theory".
Nor is the existence of a hippocampus.  

You have not provided an explanation that follows from your "theory".
Nor have you addressed the problem that we can remember dreams, despite there being no sensory acts addressing or writing memory 'locations'.
Nor have you addressed the problem, present even for the 'memory consolidation' notion, that present sensory input can, but will not always, enter into the flow and content of a dream.

You make the assumption that dreams are merely, or are entirely, explicable as memory consolation events.  This is not a proper assumption -- it is a hypothesis.  It is a hypothesis that cannot even arise in your "theory" because at no point is memory 'addressed by sensation' as part of a consolidation process.
The very notion of 'memory consolidation' is incongruent with your simple-minded approach to mechanistic reduction of memory as sensory-addressed 'ram'.  There is nothing in your 'circuit diagram' that permits of it, nor implies it, nor is implied by it.
Yet another failure for your effluent.

Your notion that memory is read and written by direct access from sensation, which is all your "theory" asserts in this portion of the "circuit diagram" is simply incapable of mapping onto the real world.  It is simply not how memory works.
This is entirely true regardless of whether there are ever events which present as a direct stimulation of memory by a specific sensation nor whether there is ever a case of a memory being formed directly from a sensory input.
In fact, looked at with that level of attention, one finds a plethora of unwarranted assumptions, presuppositions that must be elaborated on and subsequently justified -- validated by evidence.

Your absurdist notions that try to collapse all memory to RAM, that elides all the critical details of neurophysiology, psychology, and the rest of Cognitive Science collapses under the self-contradictory, incoherent, mess you are so inordinately proud of.  It has no explanatory power, no coherence, no basis in fact.  It is bad fanfic, which, as such, has no relationship to science.
No evidence, no operational definitions, no ability to explain, nothing whatever.

I reject your assertion that there is such a thing as intelligence.  Intelligence is adjectival.  It is an attribute of processes, it is not a process in and of itself.  Still less is it an entity or event.  In its noun form it is a convenient, but misleading shorthand.
Nor is intelligence an attribute that can be manufactured by any mechanical combination of sub-processes.
This is the root cause of your failure to supply operational definitions for your terms -- you have this emotional 'notion' that there is such a 'thing' as intelligence, and that it therefore requires explanation.  It needs no definition because you "know" what you "mean".  You are wrong in both categories.
You might as well be trying to explain 'yellow' by reference to the distinctive aroma of various types of (unused and freshly manufactured) paintbrushes.

You are so profoundly unqualified to even begin to think about the issues involved that you are unable even to understand the critiques raised against your little fictions.
The facts, the evidence, logic, and science are all against you.  You have wasted your life on your notions without ever bothering to invest the effort to gain the foundational knowledge that will let you be even marginally functional in addressing the problem space.
You don't even know what the problem space is.

  
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 18 2016,11:19   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Aug. 17 2016,19:40)
Hippocampo-cortical coupling mediates memory consolidation during sleep
home.uchicago.edu/~arij/journalclub/papers/2016_Maingret_al.pdf
www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v19/n7/full/nn.4304.html

How a memory consolidates memories depends on what kind of memory it is. Electronic RAM chips consolidate memories in a single "write" operation. As a result the ID Lab critter never has to sleep. This is beyond the capabilities of a typical human memory system but there are a small number of people with almost that level of memory retention.

1) You are (as always) confusing the map for the territory, the label for the actual thing.  Your model does not simulate neurons in the hippocampus - you just have routines and variables that you have stuck labels on, with no attempt to simulate what actually happens.  You have no ground-proofing and have not attempted to insert reality in any meaningful way.  You might as well have a Global Climate computer model with variable called Storm that is initiated by a random number generator, rather than calculating storm parameters from underlying parameters.

2) You have not yet provided an operational definition for "intelligence", so no one, including you, can get a handle on what you are talking about.  Your nonsense certainly doesn't apply to the standard definitions of intelligence.

3) Your computer model starts almost at the end of the process of brain evolution, so it would add little or nothing to the discussion even if it was accurate.

4) Those problems aside, it is obvious that the most primitive brains and their evolutionary precursors were heavily but far from solely involved with sensory input (so your various "criteria" are bogus).  

Let's review what has long been known to everyone but Gary.  

Once life existed, one of the earliest innovations must have been sensing and responding to stimuli.  We see this in animals and plants, but also in protists and prokaryotes.  At its basis, this is a taking or generating a chemical signal and generating a chemical response: e.g., sense light, generate growth hormone on that side.  This does not involve motors until it reaches a relatively sophisticated level: much of this is simple chemical reactions.

Anything that is chemical is in a sense also electrical, and electrical signals can be processed and transmitted quite quickly, so cells that specialize in doing that (i.e., nerve cells) are advantageous.  However, only the lineage leading to animals was able to capitalize on that, and only after that branch had already been taken: sponges don't have nerve cells.  They also lack digestive and circulatory systems, so they don't have anything for an autonomous nervous system to control. They do have cells that can contract (hence myocytes, or muscle cells), but they rely on their own albeit weak signalling abilities, which are part of the basic capabilities of all cells.  

Nerves transmit electrochemical impulses, from responses to stimuli, both chemical, electrochemical, and physical (touch, sound, light), and to muscles.  Part of that is simple transmission, without processing : signal generation over here can generate a response in a cell over there.  This has obvious advantages, even for a sessile creature, and even when no "motors" or muscle cells are involved ("Food! - Start producing digestive enzymes").

Cnidarians and ctenophores create nerves and a nerve net (rapid signal transmission and a transmission system).  Presumably the former comes first, and the second follows almost immediately.  There is still nothing in the way of ganglia or brains, so very little processing happens beyond automatic generation of a consensus responses from the nerve cells.  Neurons collect, process, and transmit those signals: in simplest form, they are just a communications relay station.  

The next step up is to collect a mass of neurons together, for ease of intercommunication.  These are ganglia, and we have reached the stage where we can talk about processing signals rather than just transmitting them.  This is particularly valuable in terms of triggering muscle cells to do something.  

However, most of the jobs of ganglia in no way involve anything that can be referred to as intelligence, as most ganglia are part of the autonomous (or peripheral) nervous system.  This is concerned with the most basic of functions for the operation of the individual organism, which require no choices whatsoever: "beat now, beat now, beat now" once you have at least a precursor for the heart; "food coming, release enzymes, start peristalsis" once you have a gut.  (Again, note that the simplest animals do not have guts, hearts, circulation systems, or nerves.)

The next step up from the thoughtless responses from ganglia are to collect the ganglia into a centralized cluster, i.e. a brain.  Earthworms have lateral peripheral ganglia, which communicate to two large ganglia on either side of its head.  These are approaching being a brain, but they are not in complete control: they don’t exert complete central control, because the ganglion in each body segment receives and processes sensory information independently.

Obviously, although that works for the worm, it is not especially efficient.  It would be like having an army run by sergeants, who send their information and decisions up to a panel of generals, who then render suggestions.

Once you have a brain, you have the opportunity for more interconnections between the neurons, thereby allowing for more complex processing, including primitive thinking.  Nonetheless, animals suggest that a lot of primitive brain power is going towards interpretation of complex signals and generation of complex sequences of responses, rather than generating creative responses based on retrieved memories.

An organism can do a fairly sophisticated job of navigation by following simple sets of rules (e.g. look at maximally efficient detritivore tracks) or by random walks followed by retracing chemical trails, such as ants).  However, by the level of navigation involving learning and recognizing landmarks, choosing routes, and perhaps especially correctly guessing shortcuts, we can legitimately talk about intelligence at work.  However, this is a level of sophistication well beyond the evolution of the animal kingdom, let alone the origin of life.

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 18 2016,17:50   

Quote (N.Wells @ Aug. 18 2016,11:19)
2) You have not yet provided an operational definition for "intelligence", so no one, including you, can get a handle on what you are talking about.  Your nonsense certainly doesn't apply to the standard definitions of intelligence.

You are so full of bullshit it must hurt.

Show me your "operational definition" for intelligence. Then I'll show you mine, again.

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 18 2016,18:22   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Aug. 18 2016,17:50)
 
Quote (N.Wells @ Aug. 18 2016,11:19)
2) You have not yet provided an operational definition for "intelligence", so no one, including you, can get a handle on what you are talking about.  Your nonsense certainly doesn't apply to the standard definitions of intelligence.

You are so full of bullshit it must hurt.

Show me your "operational definition" for intelligence. Then I'll show you mine, again.

Providing an operational definition is your responsibility, not mine.  You are the one making claims about intelligence.

You have claimed to provide an operational definition, but that's not what that was.  The closest you have come to giving a definition, such as it is, is unworkable.

So, according to your supposed operational definition, which has more intelligence, a mushroom or an oak tree?  A bee or a butterfly?  A bee or an oak tree?  By how much, and how do you justify your answer?  What are the units and how do I measure it?  Do they all have the same amount of "molecular intelligence" and "cellular intelligence"?  Does the amount of cellular intelligence depend on the amount of cells?

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 18 2016,23:39   

Quote (N.Wells @ Aug. 18 2016,18:22)
Quote (GaryGaulin @ Aug. 18 2016,17:50)
 
Quote (N.Wells @ Aug. 18 2016,11:19)
2) You have not yet provided an operational definition for "intelligence", so no one, including you, can get a handle on what you are talking about.  Your nonsense certainly doesn't apply to the standard definitions of intelligence.

You are so full of bullshit it must hurt.

Show me your "operational definition" for intelligence. Then I'll show you mine, again.

Providing an operational definition is your responsibility, not mine.  You are the one making claims about intelligence.

You have claimed to provide an operational definition, but that's not what that was.  The closest you have come to giving a definition, such as it is, is unworkable.

So, according to your supposed operational definition, which has more intelligence, a mushroom or an oak tree?  A bee or a butterfly?  A bee or an oak tree?  By how much, and how do you justify your answer?  What are the units and how do I measure it?  Do they all have the same amount of "molecular intelligence" and "cellular intelligence"?  Does the amount of cellular intelligence depend on the amount of cells?

N.Wells I just knew you would dance around to that one. There is no way you can beat an operational definition with enough information in it to model from.

On another note: in a thread for why we need to sleep I ended up having to respond to additional information that caused me to need to go into way more detail in regards to what the ID Lab model predicts:

www.kurzweilai.net/forums/topic/why-do-we-have-to-sleep?replies=13#post-769221

Over a decade ago I experimented with Arnold Trehub inspired long term memory locations that were added whenever a unique experience (new bit pattern being addressed) occurs. That made it possible to add many more bits of addressing. After finding out that the program's fast creation of a new memory location makes it work the exact same as having a RAM location all set to go I did not need to experiment with it anymore.

In this case I have thousands of hours of experience with something quite simple, to explain the most recent evidence in regards to what happens during sleep. The only surprise to me is how something that once seemed a minor technical detail so nicely answers one of the biggest questions in science.

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 19 2016,00:22   

Quote
N.Wells I just knew you would dance around to that one. There is no way you can beat an operational definition with enough information in it to model from.


So, if you knew that was coming, then what are your answers?  And how does someone go about verifying those answers?

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 19 2016,07:07   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Aug. 18 2016,18:50)
Quote (N.Wells @ Aug. 18 2016,11:19)
2) You have not yet provided an operational definition for "intelligence", so no one, including you, can get a handle on what you are talking about.  Your nonsense certainly doesn't apply to the standard definitions of intelligence.

You are so full of bullshit it must hurt.

Show me your "operational definition" for intelligence. Then I'll show you mine, again.

So, you get substantive serious criticism, engagement with your work and this is how you respond?
Never forget this when wondering why you are treated withs such contempt, why you are granted so little (actually so much negative) standing.

As to your final assertion -- this has been a common thread through your internet career.  Yet again, we must point out quite simply that this is not how things work.  Anywhere, ever, for anyone.
You're making positive claims to explain something without ever specifying, really without ever being able to specify, just what it is you are claiming to explain.
You're the one making claims.  You're the one who has to defend them, and that starts with identifying them.
You don't win by default, no one does.  The default is the null hypothesis.  You are merely a null.  Your notions don't rise to the level of hypothesis.

The absurd tacked-on 'again' is another one of your typical ploys.  The rhetorical pretense of having already done what was being asked for.
Which is complete bullshit, as we all know.
You have never provided an operational definition.
No, a 'theory of operation' is emphatically not an operational definition.  That you could somehow believe that it is is merely more evidence that you are completely and entirely unqualified to make the claims you make.

You're a contemptible shill for incoherent notions being paraded about as if they were ideas, and for adopting the pretentious and utterly false stance of being qualified to speak on the issues involved.
You don't even know what the issues are.
You can't even lay out a coherent and consistent view of what the problems are, what it is you are trying to 'solve' or 'explain'.
You quite literally do not know what you are talking about.
That assessment now extends to cover the various 'bright and shiny objects' your crow-like encounters with science leads you to link to or quote here.

You lack even the basic integrity to follow through on your oft-repeated pouts that amount to a poor imitation of Eric Cartman's "screw you guys, I'm going home".  Eric, however, is a paragon compared to you.
Smarter, more poised, better behaved, more learned, better spoken, a more capable writer, and, well, the list just goes on and on.  Are you smarter than a fourth grader?  No.  You're barely a fourth rater, at most.

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2016,18:26   

Quote (N.Wells @ Aug. 19 2016,00:22)
 
Quote
N.Wells I just knew you would dance around to that one. There is no way you can beat an operational definition with enough information in it to model from.


So, if you knew that was coming, then what are your answers?  And how does someone go about verifying those answers?

I'm currently testing that and other things, in the thread I started at the Kurzweil AI forum. In this reply the phrase "Why sleep evolved" ended up becoming scientifically useless, but the rest of the information was useful:

www.kurzweilai.net/forums/topic/why-do-we-have-to-sleep#post-769365

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
Jim_Wynne



Posts: 1208
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2016,18:48   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Aug. 20 2016,18:26)
Quote (N.Wells @ Aug. 19 2016,00:22)
 
Quote
N.Wells I just knew you would dance around to that one. There is no way you can beat an operational definition with enough information in it to model from.


So, if you knew that was coming, then what are your answers?  And how does someone go about verifying those answers?

I'm currently testing that and other things, in the thread I started at the Kurzweil AI forum. In this reply the phrase "Why sleep evolved" ended up becoming scientifically useless, but the rest of the information was useful:

www.kurzweilai.net/forums/topic/why-do-we-have-to-sleep#post-769365

From one of your comments there:
Quote
From what I can gather what we call "sleep" was there since the very first cells, which caused the same to emerge in multicellular plants and animals, not something that "evolved" over time.

This is one of the stupidest things you've said to date. Do you know why?

--------------
Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2016,18:58   

Quote (Jim_Wynne @ Aug. 20 2016,18:48)
Quote (GaryGaulin @ Aug. 20 2016,18:26)
Quote (N.Wells @ Aug. 19 2016,00:22)
   
Quote
N.Wells I just knew you would dance around to that one. There is no way you can beat an operational definition with enough information in it to model from.


So, if you knew that was coming, then what are your answers?  And how does someone go about verifying those answers?

I'm currently testing that and other things, in the thread I started at the Kurzweil AI forum. In this reply the phrase "Why sleep evolved" ended up becoming scientifically useless, but the rest of the information was useful:

www.kurzweilai.net/forums/topic/why-do-we-have-to-sleep#post-769365

From one of your comments there:
Quote
From what I can gather what we call "sleep" was there since the very first cells, which caused the same to emerge in multicellular plants and animals, not something that "evolved" over time.

This is one of the stupidest things you've said to date. Do you know why?

So you think you have something to add eh?

It does not matter to me which way the evidence goes. Show me what you got!

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
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