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-Antievolution.org Discussion Board
+--Forum: After the Bar Closes...
+---Topic: Religion On The Job started by Wesley R. Elsberry


Posted by: Wesley R. Elsberry on Mar. 13 2012,06:35

This thread is for discussion of instances where people claim religious discrimination when told they can't promote antievolution at work. There's a fairly long history of this, including the 1994 < Peloza v. Capistrano Unified School District > case.
Posted by: midwifetoad on Mar. 13 2012,09:10

< http://sensuouscurmudgeon.wordpress.com/2012....omorrow >
Posted by: Kristine on Mar. 13 2012,11:00

< Call the Wahhhhmbulance! >! :p


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Mr Coppedge was a "team leader" on the Cassini project at the agency's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in California. He used to talk to his co-workers about the theory and handed out DVDs on it while at work.

He claims that led to him being demoted in 2009 and the termination of his employment as a computer specialist last year.

His case, which is being heard in a Los Angeles court, is being backed by a Christian civil rights group and the Discovery Institute, a proponent of intelligent design.

John West, of the Seattle-based Discovery Institute, said: "It's part of a pattern. There is basically a war on anyone who dissents from Darwin and we've seen that for several years. This is free speech, freedom of conscience 101."

William Becker, Mr Coppedge's lawyer, claimed his client was singled out because his superiors perceived his belief in intelligent design to be religious.

He said: "David had this reputation for being a Christian, for being a practicing one. He did not go around evangelising or proselytising.

"But if he found out that someone was a Christian he would say, 'Oh that's interesting, what denomination are you?' He's not apologising for who he is. He's an evangelical Christian."
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Yeah, it's just a total coinckydinky that he's an evangelical. All right, kiddies - have at it! :)


Posted by: Richardthughes on Mar. 13 2012,11:02

I believe the thread 'religion on the job' (just below) is handling this.
Posted by: Kristine on Mar. 13 2012,11:08

Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 13 2012,11:02)
I believe the thread 'religion on the job' (just below) is handling this.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Yeah, yeah - I was just checkin'! *Blush*

Some < good background > here.



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
My run-ins with Coppedge are purely from his writings … on the Institute for Creation Research’s website. Yep, that’s right: Coppedge is a young-Earth creationist, at least based upon his writings. He has written several articles for the ICR, though I have only addressed two in this blog: “Venus and the Battle of Uniformitarianism (A Creationist Argument)” and “Dating Planetary Surfaces with Craters – Why There Is No “Crisis in Crater Count Dating”.” From his writings, he has a very poor grasp of astronomy, despite the attempt of argument from authority by posting at the bottom of them, “David F. Coppedge works in the Cassini program at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory. (The views expressed are his own.)” I address this more below.

Coppedge runs computers at JPL for the Cassini mission to Saturn. His expertise is in computers, not astronomy. And not evolution.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------




Posted by: OgreMkV on Mar. 13 2012,12:18

What the heck is it with engineers and creationism?

Also, what the heck is it with engineers thinking that they know better than everyone else on the planet about everything?

I mean, our own local case in point, Joe the toaster repair guy, thinks he knows more about ID than the guy that effectively invented it, Dembski.  And he (in his own mind) surely knows more than the 10s of 1000s of practicing scientists.

The only actual scientist that I can think of is Behe, and his ideas are all but mainstream.  He just can't seem to square it in his own mind with his religion and has to say stupid things to try to justify his religion.

rant over.. thanks
Posted by: Kristine on Mar. 13 2012,12:28

Waaaiiit just a second here - wasn't there a major miscalculation in the Cassini mission, that almost prevented it and its lander, Huygens, from communicating on the proper radio frequency, almost derailing the gathering of information entirely?

There was! Hmmm, I'm not saying it was Coppedge's fault, but...

Curse you all, I'm getting sucked back into the TARD! :D
Posted by: Tom A on Mar. 13 2012,17:10

Quote (OgreMkV @ Mar. 13 2012,12:18)
What the heck is it with engineers and creationism?

Also, what the heck is it with engineers thinking that they know better than everyone else on the planet about everything?

I mean, our own local case in point, Joe the toaster repair guy, thinks he knows more about ID than the guy that effectively invented it, Dembski.  And he (in his own mind) surely knows more than the 10s of 1000s of practicing scientists.

The only actual scientist that I can think of is Behe, and his ideas are all but mainstream.  He just can't seem to square it in his own mind with his religion and has to say stupid things to try to justify his religion.

rant over.. thanks
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I know what you mean about engineers. I work with lots of them and they (almost) all seem to think they know everything about everything, and they have no doubt about it. I'm one of three scientists at our facility and we're always dumbfounded that the engineers don't ask for advice for things outside their area of expertise when starting a project, then come looking for help when it goes to hell because they made the wrong assumptions or didn't take certain factors into account when doing calculations.

I don't know if any of them are creationists, but all that I'm aware of are religious, and pretty dogmatic about their beliefs. Very few have any knack for looking at problems in a scientific way. They usually "know" what the solution is, and are truly confused when they turn out to be wrong.

Either people with tendencies to be arrogant, dogmatic and overconfident in their knowledge and abilities are drawn to engineering, or they are trained that way in school. Most likely, it's a combination of the two.
[Disclaimer: I'm speaking in generalities of most of the engineers that I know personally, not those who read and contribute to these pages]
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Mar. 13 2012,17:45

The < Salem Hypothesis > isn't really a hypothesis but it is a pretty damn good predictor.  If you want to go all meta- on a tard, particularly one that fits that bill, bring it up.  Frilldo diddled himself with that one so long that carlson made it a key couplet

ETA to get back on topic, it seems that a corollary of the Salem 'hypothesis' might be that instances like the Coppedge fiasco might be scarce, relative to the evil athiest conspiracy squashing good creation science in university settings.  Since, if it's true, engineers are more likely to be predisposed to being creationist it is much of a stretch to think that being a proselytizing creationist wanker ala Coppedge is more likely to escape disapproval in an engineering firm, as opposed to an academic department??


Posted by: utidjian on Mar. 13 2012,19:56

I run the undergraduate labs for a small college Engineering Physics department. Basically a technician. Most of what I do is engineering. I work with scientists from Biology, Chemistry, Physics (of course) and even from Psychology in designing and building their experiments. One week I will be working on making some bio-pulverizers for a Biology lab, another week I will be designing and building a set of apparatus for radio-carbon dating using lasers, another day I will be helping a student design and build a controller unit for a CNC mini-mill, another week I will be helping a Psychology professor design a method for measuring the "anxiety" of a passenger in a car, another time I will working on a radio tracking system for some endangered turtles, to name a few... far too often I have to fix equipment that professors have wrecked because they didn't know what they were doing. Sometimes I get the time to work on my own projects.

I really love this job. I doubt I would have the freedom or variety in a larger college or university that keeps this job interesting. It is kinda like I get paid to fix, design, and build machines and apparatus. To me, it is as if I get paid to do my hobby. If I had independent means I would do the job for free.

I don't now, and never have, bought in to any part of the argument regarding design. Far from it. I see a heckuvalot more 'evolution' in the design process of the things I make and work with than I do of any sort of external 'information.' Equating the design process and the evolutionary process is not a good analogy for either but there is far more similarity and things I can learn from the evolutionary process and apply it to designs than can be done the other way around.

What is difficult for me to understand is how some engineers can not see the similarities as I do.

-DU-
Posted by: Henry J on Mar. 13 2012,22:55



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
What is difficult for me to understand is how some engineers can not see the similarities as I do.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


My guess is that the ones that see that aren't as vocal about it as the ones that don't.

Henry
Posted by: sledgehammer on Mar. 13 2012,23:02

I am the only physicist leading a team of engineers in instrumentation design.  For most of them, it's "don't bore me with the science, just tell what I need to know" so they can go off in a corner with their little piece to write some code or run a simulation to solve the immediate Problem Du Jour. And when things go south, I'm the one looking for the root cause, while they're looking for a band-aid to patch the thing together long enough to get through the next phase of testing. With only a few exceptions, most engineers I know are not interested in the science or physics behind the phenomenon that the instrument we're designing is used to investigate. This is especially true of the more overtly religious ones, who tend to be more cocksure of their abilities, while the exceptional ones tend to be younger, know when to ask questions,  and are eager to learn.

ETA: correctizationing of the grammaficationaries


Posted by: utidjian on Mar. 14 2012,00:06

sledgehammer,

I approach the problems that the scientists bring to me a bit differently. More like your younger engineers. I am very interested in the science behind (and even in front of) a particular problem. I am also interested in the whole project. I find that it is sometimes difficult to get enough details from the scientist about the exact thing they want.

I also have a tendency to 'overbuild' a particular device or instrument due to the amazing ability of some scientists to destroy it. This is not really a complaint but something I see as an interesting challenge.

I rarely trouble them with the difficulties I may encounter in making their stuff. I have learned that, for the most part, they are completely uninterested. My biologist, for instance, couldn't care less what particular alloy of stainless steel I should use for making his bio-pulverizers. Nor was he interested in how amazingly difficult it is to bore a smooth blind hole with a dead flat and smooth bottom with a smooth radius at the corner.

There is a lot of variation with physicists where I work. Some are very tidy and methodical and others are quite messy with stuff held together with tape, string, and paperclips... whatever comes to hand.

A more humorous take, obviously created by a technician:


Though I don't see myself as a Chuck Norris ;-)

-DU-
Posted by: Doc Bill on Mar. 14 2012,00:27

I've been following Coppedge since before the "troubles" after I stumbled on his Creation-Evolution Headlines site.

The site has morphed a bit recently and is not nearly as "creationist" as the old site, but you can still find it via our pal Google.

Here's a sample of the old  < Creation Safaris > site.

Coppedge is involved in many things.  He configured routers and operated the HP OpenView network management software for the Cassini project, but those jobs went away during the budget cuts. He failed to upgrade his computer skills as JPL moved to Linux;  got laid off.

He's on the board of Illustra Media which distributes the Privileged Planet and other ID titles.  

He's associated with some weird outfit called Logos Associates with John Sanford, John Baumgardner, Steve Austin and other creationists.  God knows what they do.

I found an old LinkedIn page that says he got a BS in science education from Bob Jones University (no date, but probably in the 70's) and another BS in physics with an astrophysics concentration from California State University - Northridge.  His LinkedIn page was really out there leading you to believe he ran the Cassini project when all he did was monitor the network.

He's also listed himself as President of Master Plan Association which near as I can tell was a ministry set up by his father, now deceased.

Getting back to Creation Safaris and C-E Headlines, that's quite a piece of work.  He blogs on average 400 words a day, every day and has done so for about 8 years.  Even when he was having his HR problems with JPL and getting laid off he never missed a day.  He goes after all science, even his own colleagues at JPL.

I don't see how he held down a full-time job seeing as how he appeared to be a full-time YEC, too!  Although, there were some comments in the depositions to the effect that he seemed to spend a lot of time at work on personal stuff, but who knows.

Interesting fellow in a clinical sort of way.  Probably material enough for a thesis or two.
Posted by: sledgehammer on Mar. 14 2012,01:10

DU-  I could tell from your previous post that you are one of the "exceptionals" that are a joy to work with. Your job sounds like a lot of fun, and I'm jealous. I also know of what you speak when you describe the more academically oriented scientists that have little appreciation for the art of engineering, and how to make things that work.  My undergrad degree is BSEE, but I've done a lot of ME as well (had to pay off those student loans).  I once had an engineering tech that loved the science and had been a tinkerer all his life, and he knew how to get things done.  He was worth his weight in gold.  Alas, after he got his engineering degree, he was lured away by one of my former colleagues who knew and valued his talents more than the company I was working for at the time.  I was so upset with the short-sightedness of the CEO, that I left as well.
 This is straying from the topic at hand, so I'll PM from here on out.
Posted by: utidjian on Mar. 14 2012,01:51

Interesting stuff Doc Bill. His degree from Bob Jones Looniversity appears to be in Secondary Education (according to his LinkedIn page.)

The Creation Safaris and crev.info pages are both copyright "Master Plan Association."

There is an announcement on the crev.info page:


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Reporting will be sparse through the month of March.
Please check back occasionally.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Perhaps he will be too busy in court to blog.  :D

After reading some of the court documents and comparing it to his LinkedIn page it does seem a bit fluffed up, but that isn't unusual for LinkedIn pages.

-DU-
Posted by: carolfosterr on Mar. 14 2012,05:30

It sometimes happens with my LinkedIn pages too!
What might be the reason ?
Posted by: k.e.. on Mar. 14 2012,06:50

Quote (utidjian @ Mar. 14 2012,08:06)
sledgehammer,

I approach the problems that the scientists bring to me a bit differently. More like your younger engineers. I am very interested in the science behind (and even in front of) a particular problem. I am also interested in the whole project. I find that it is sometimes difficult to get enough details from the scientist about the exact thing they want.

I also have a tendency to 'overbuild' a particular device or instrument due to the amazing ability of some scientists to destroy it. This is not really a complaint but something I see as an interesting challenge.

I rarely trouble them with the difficulties I may encounter in making their stuff. I have learned that, for the most part, they are completely uninterested. My biologist, for instance, couldn't care less what particular alloy of stainless steel I should use for making his bio-pulverizers. Nor was he interested in how amazingly difficult it is to bore a smooth blind hole with a dead flat and smooth bottom with a smooth radius at the corner.

There is a lot of variation with physicists where I work. Some are very tidy and methodical and others are quite messy with stuff held together with tape, string, and paperclips... whatever comes to hand.

A more humorous take, obviously created by a technician:


Though I don't see myself as a Chuck Norris ;-)

-DU-
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


HA, CHUCK NORRIS DOESN'T DO ENGINEERING THE PARTS A SO SCARED THEY JUST ARRANGE THEMSELVES!
Posted by: Wesley R. Elsberry on Mar. 14 2012,09:18

News < report >:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------

Coppedge claims he never forcibly compelled colleagues to accept his idea of intelligent design in the workplace. Intelligent design is a conviction that life is too complex to have developed solely through evolution and that the universe was designed by an intelligent entity.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



This isn't about forcing people to accept your pretentious twaddle, David; it's more about forcing people to listen to your pretentious twaddle, over and over, when they've told you they don't want to.
Posted by: Wesley R. Elsberry on Mar. 14 2012,09:20

Internet definition of fanatic: someone who will not change his mind and will not change the subject.
Posted by: Henry J on Mar. 14 2012,10:48

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Mar. 14 2012,08:20)
Internet definition of fanatic: someone who will not change his mind and will not change the subject.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


What about the ones that try to change the subject when they sense they're losing the argument? :p
Posted by: Doc Bill on Mar. 14 2012,11:30

Once again, narcissistic personality disorder:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Believing that you're better than others.

Fantasizing about power, success and attractiveness.

Exaggerating your achievements or talents.

Expecting constant praise and admiration.

Believing that you're special and acting accordingly.

Failing to recognize other people's emotions and feelings.

Expecting others to go along with your ideas and plans.

Taking advantage of others.

Expressing disdain for those you feel are inferior.

Being jealous of others.

Believing that others are jealous of you.

Trouble keeping healthy relationships.

Setting unrealistic goals.

Being easily hurt and rejected.

Having a fragile self-esteem.

Appearing as tough-minded or unemotional.


---------------------QUOTE-------------------



I'm right and they're wrong.  Somebody has to stand up to the experts.  Same pattern with creationists over and over.
Posted by: OgreMkV on Mar. 14 2012,11:45

Quote (Doc Bill @ Mar. 14 2012,11:30)
Once again, narcissistic personality disorder:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Believing that you're better than others.

Fantasizing about power, success and attractiveness.

Exaggerating your achievements or talents.

Expecting constant praise and admiration.

Believing that you're special and acting accordingly.

Failing to recognize other people's emotions and feelings.

Expecting others to go along with your ideas and plans.

Taking advantage of others.

Expressing disdain for those you feel are inferior.

Being jealous of others.

Believing that others are jealous of you.

Trouble keeping healthy relationships.

Setting unrealistic goals.

Being easily hurt and rejected.

Having a fragile self-esteem.

Appearing as tough-minded or unemotional.


---------------------QUOTE-------------------



I'm right and they're wrong.  Somebody has to stand up to the experts.  Same pattern with creationists over and over.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Heck, I've got 50% of those characteristics... and I'm much better now.

Of course, I can also recognize those traits in myself and pretty accurately judge when they are unfounded.

Know thyself... and all that.

I wonder if 'stalking' should be on that list?
Posted by: Henry J on Mar. 14 2012,12:50



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Believing that you're special and acting accordingly.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I'm unique! Just like everybody else!
Posted by: noncarborundum on Mar. 14 2012,14:18

Quote (OgreMkV @ Mar. 14 2012,11:45)
Of course, I can also recognize those traits in myself and pretty accurately judge when they are unfounded.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Or do you just think you can? ? ? ?
   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Exaggerating your achievements or talents.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


;)


[Edited to remove unintentional smilie]


Posted by: Doc Bill on Mar. 14 2012,14:30

We're all special.

It's just that some of us are more special than others!
Posted by: Kristine on Mar. 14 2012,16:29

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Mar. 14 2012,09:18)
News < report >:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------

Coppedge claims he never forcibly compelled colleagues to accept his idea of intelligent design in the workplace. Intelligent design is a conviction that life is too complex to have developed solely through evolution and that the universe was designed by an intelligent entity.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



This isn't about forcing people to accept your pretentious twaddle, David; it's more about forcing people to listen to your pretentious twaddle, over and over, when they've told you they don't want to.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Yes, exactly. You cannot really force a belief on someone in the United States. For all the rabble-raising from the right wing, even they cannot do it.

The laughable irony is, the Supreme Court (largely conservative due to Reagan, Bush HW, and Bush W appointees) have really raised the bar for claims of discrimination. One now (as I recall - correct me if I am wrong) has to show intent on the part of the employer, not merely results/behavior. So, here is another case in which one faction of conservatives have screwed over another.

But of course, this is not being argued in front of the SCOTUS, and another irony here is that the media may be

< Expelled > from the conference in chambers. (I'm being facetious - I know that such conferences are rarely if ever public.) ;)

Oh, dog, somebody please stop me! Stop me before I post again!
Posted by: khan on Mar. 14 2012,18:00

My last ~2 years before I retired I was supervisor of a bunch of fetus fetishist god wallopers.
Yes they could program, but it was all I could do to not bring in a rubber chicken and smack them.
Not sure of their opinions re creationism, afraid to ask.
Posted by: SLP on Mar. 15 2012,09:36

I came across an old article by Coppedge on a paper dealing with a new algorithm using large datasets to reconstruct phylogenies.  It was primarily snarky insults and nonsense, but two things struck me -

1. The program employed a heuristic search.  Coppedge - supposedly knowledgeable about computers and such - declared this to mean  that they were "just guessing"

2. He referred to the Maximum Likelihood search criterion as a "value".

IOW - he is completely ignorant of this stuff, yet felt qualified (if not compelled) to write a "take down" of this article.

The worst part is, so many lay YECs gobble his stuff up - they LIKE that he is obnoxious, rude, insulting, etc.  Pity that they cannot see that his bluster is used to cover up his angry stupidity.
Posted by: OgreMkV on Mar. 15 2012,10:08

Quote (SLP @ Mar. 15 2012,09:36)
I came across an old article by Coppedge on a paper dealing with a new algorithm using large datasets to reconstruct phylogenies.  It was primarily snarky insults and nonsense, but two things struck me -

1. The program employed a heuristic search.  Coppedge - supposedly knowledgeable about computers and such - declared this to mean  that they were "just guessing"

2. He referred to the Maximum Likelihood search criterion as a "value".

IOW - he is completely ignorant of this stuff, yet felt qualified (if not compelled) to write a "take down" of this article.

The worst part is, so many lay YECs gobble his stuff up - they LIKE that he is obnoxious, rude, insulting, etc.  Pity that they cannot see that his bluster is used to cover up his angry stupidity.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I read that same article and the critique of it... I think I happened to be reading another thread here at the time and followed the link.

The article and critique was years ago.

You know, in our modern, linked-in, facebooked, blogged society, it's really going to become interesting how one's personal life affects one's job.

No, it probably shouldn't, but it does and it will.  Does it matter if you're gay, Christian, atheist, homophobic, or any of that.  It shouldn't (it will, but it shouldn't).

On the other hand, if you are spouting views that are diametrically opposite that of your job and it's a critical part of your job, then maybe it should be taken into account.  Especially those who directly influence the public in some way.

Like, for example, a science teacher teaching students wrong science.  Or a priest being caught with drugs and hookers (of the same sex).  His sexual orientation, even his drug use really shouldn't matter.  But if I was going to a church that was intolerant to homosexuals, then I think I'd want to know if the priest was a homosexual.

It's a very interesting conundrum.
Posted by: midwifetoad on Mar. 15 2012,16:28

Apparently teachers can be fired for taking delivery of jumbo sausage pizzas, at least if they do it online.
Posted by: keiths on Mar. 16 2012,00:52

The first line of < JPL's trial brief >:


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
This case is about an employee who had no self-awareness.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: Kristine on Mar. 16 2012,09:24

We're going to be celebrating a variation of Kitzmass quite soon, methinks:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
[Coppedge] < also admits that employees complained to managers > about him harassing them by talking about his religious convictions and giving them religious DVDs as gifts.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



There's always a Buckingham, isn't there? ;)

Now, contrast this with one of the places where I work: all people of conscience, including atheists and agnostics, are a protected class, and employees are invited to attend panel discussions by other employees about their belief systems (including atheism and agnosticism, as well as Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, etc.). Participation in these discussions is optional, and meant to spread tolerance for diverse points of view. Otherwise, we don't get into it, and I don't care if someone wears a cross on a necklace.

I don't agree with the British system of banishing all religious references from the workplace, but let's face it: the workplace is a place one has to be. Likewise, when a gentleman came up to my reference desk and asked for a book by "a preacher named Joel somebody" I was able to direct him to Joel Osteen's books. I loathe Osteen's message, but it's not my job to say so; it's my job to give the patron the information he/she wants.

So, perhaps instead of making these fly-by-night videos, the Disco Boys could try to cough up some real evidence that would be included in the mainstream books and DVDs that vendors sell to libraries, so that patrons could know about and ask for them instead of the Disco 'Tute needing other Disco minions to hawk these largely unknown works at the workplace? But of course, that's too close to publishing scholarly papers in the Great Darwinian Conspiratorial Hegemony, no? And, of course, that would involve being ethical enough to not use your workplace as a soapbox for your personal beliefs.
Posted by: utidjian on Mar. 16 2012,09:25

Quote (keiths @ Mar. 16 2012,00:52)
The first line of < JPL's trial brief >:


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
This case is about an employee who had no self-awareness.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


---------------------QUOTE-------------------


That single sentence sums up the character of Coppedge in his relationship with his co-workers perfectly.

-DU-
Posted by: OgreMkV on Mar. 16 2012,10:04

Quote (Kristine @ Mar. 16 2012,09:24)
We're going to be celebrating a variation of Kitzmass quite soon, methinks:

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
[Coppedge] < also admits that employees complained to managers > about him harassing them by talking about his religious convictions and giving them religious DVDs as gifts.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



There's always a Buckingham, isn't there? ;)

Now, contrast this with one of the places where I work: all people of conscience, including atheists and agnostics, are a protected class, and employees are invited to attend panel discussions by other employees about their belief systems (including atheism and agnosticism, as well as Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, etc.). Participation in these discussions is optional, and meant to spread tolerance for diverse points of view. Otherwise, we don't get into it, and I don't care if someone wears a cross on a necklace.

I don't agree with the British system of banishing all religious references from the workplace, but let's face it: the workplace is a place one has to be. Likewise, when a gentleman came up to my reference desk and asked for a book by "a preacher named Joel somebody" I was able to direct him to Joel Osteen's books. I loathe Osteen's message, but it's not my job to say so; it's my job to give the patron the information he/she wants.

So, perhaps instead of making these fly-by-night videos, the Disco Boys could try to cough up some real evidence that would be included in the mainstream books and DVDs that vendors sell to libraries, so that patrons could know about and ask for them instead of the Disco 'Tute needing other Disco minions to hawk these largely unknown works at the workplace? But of course, that's too close to publishing scholarly papers in the Great Darwinian Conspiratorial Hegemony, no? And, of course, that would involve being ethical enough to not use your workplace as a soapbox for your personal beliefs.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


But that's not how the religious... I mean... ID proponents disseminate information.

If everyone had to go do their own research about religion... I mean... ID, then no one would probably bother.  And those that did would get the wrong idea because of all the contradictions and lies and utterly useless things in religion... I mean... ID.

So, the message MUST be presented in an evangelical... I mean... educational way.  That's the proper method for disseminating information.  No questions, no comments, no backtalk, just preaching... I mean... lecturing.

That's the way that these people actually think.  They literally can't understand things like learning.  They look stuff up to make arguments (or look for quotemines or things that they can obfuscate or lie about), but not to actually learn.  Their faith... I mean... logical hypotheses just can't stand up to that level of thinking.  And they all know it.  At least the pastors... I mean... ID leadership (many of whom also went to seminary) also know it.

I'm reading a book about how all the seminary schools are teaching the actual history of the bible and yet, these pastors they are churning out never mention it in the pulpit.  They are basically lying to their entire congregation.
Posted by: Quack on Mar. 16 2012,11:49



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I'm reading a book about how all the seminary schools are teaching the actual history of the bible and yet, these pastors they are churning out never mention it in the pulpit.  They are basically lying to their entire congregation.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Got an alternative?
Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on Mar. 16 2012,11:49



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
There's always a Buckingham, isn't there?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Funny, that, I was thinking about Buckingham while reading the NCSE opinion...
Posted by: J-Dog on Mar. 16 2012,15:23

I found a pole to Phrangulate...On the front page of MSN.

< http://www.msn.com/....msn.com >

It's tied as of when I post this.
Posted by: OgreMkV on Mar. 16 2012,15:28

Quote (J-Dog @ Mar. 16 2012,15:23)
I found a pole to Phrangulate...On the front page of MSN.

< http://www.msn.com/....msn....msn.com >

It's tied as of when I post this.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I get so pissy when polls are not correctly constructed.

The options MUST be non-overlapping.

I agree that the have the right to share their opinions.  I also agree that if they are aggressive about it to the point of harassment, then the employer should step in to prevent that.

Of, polls are specifically constructed this way by biased individuals.  With just a little thinking you can even tell which way their bias runs just by reading the responses.

Do you think abortion should be made illegal?
Of course, all children should be allowed to live and explore their lives.
No, kill all the stupid embryos and crush their remains to dust.

Hmmm....
Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on Mar. 16 2012,22:08



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Coppedge stated that he is a board member of Illustra Media, the company that produced two DVD documetaries that were submitted into evidence. The films were entitled, "Unlocking the Mysteries of Life," and "The Privileged Planet."

When asked if the DVDs contain a religious message, Coppedge testified that, "No, they do not."
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Whoops! Perjury much?

< http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/news....lawsuit >
Posted by: Krubozumo Nyankoye on Mar. 17 2012,02:23

Very interesting thread, I have not been here much lately but I always enjoy my visits.

First, on topic, the Coppedge matter. Egregious as his behavior in the work environment was, this whole lawsuit sounds like a put up job to a)garner publicity for the 'academic freedom' ploy, and b) cast aspersions on JPL.  I hope he gets slapped down hard.

On the question of engineering v. science, it is partly just a cultural difference. Engineers are expected to have conventional solutions to a wide range of problems. Scientists on the other hand generally are faced with a wide range of problems for which there are no solutions and their charge is to discover some. When you are doing good science, you really are in a uncertain situation, it takes a certain kind of calm and self-assurance to cope with that uncertainty for years and years. I don't think that kind of environment appeals to the religious. They seem to have a kind of fetish about certainty. So perhaps it is natural that the religious gravitate towards engineering instead of science.  There are no doubt plenty of brilliant engineers who are confronted with similar difficulties to those of science when developing hardware or software for truly novel applications and uses. Like the engineers who developed the four computer decision system for the avionics of the shuttle. For the time and the technology it was a brilliant piece of work.

Since I kind of have a foot in both puddles, I have a certain empathy for all parties. I have known a few scientists who were good enough at what they did but who were pretty dogmatic in other respects. Perhaps the distinguishing factor is more like a kind of natural selection. There are far fewer niches for scientists than there are for engineers.  And those niches are a much tighter fit. There are plenty of jobs for engineers without a PhD. but not many for scientists. So the winnowing process is both brutal and highly selective.

If you think about it for a while it is a little amazing that JPL tolerated this guy's extracurricular activities for as long as they did. In his capacity as a sysadmin he was in an ideal position to totally fuck up the mission, and if he was clever about it, get away scot free while serving up a truck load of scorn and derision to those elite scientists. He certainly didn't seem to shy away from deriding the work that the mission produced in as public a way as possible. Perhaps he, and his collaborators, calculated that he could do more damage to science based policy and decisions by letting the mission play out and just fanatically contradicting every result published with his idiotic rants about A.S.S.

Or perhaps they just weren't clever enough to figure out a way to cover their tracks if they did overt sabotage.

Strange world we live in. Stranger than we can suppose.
Posted by: Quack on Mar. 17 2012,10:51



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Strange world we live in. Stranger than we can suppose.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I suppose you are right.
Posted by: Doc Bill on Mar. 17 2012,22:03

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Mar. 16 2012,22:08)


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Coppedge stated that he is a board member of Illustra Media, the company that produced two DVD documetaries that were submitted into evidence. The films were entitled, "Unlocking the Mysteries of Life," and "The Privileged Planet."

When asked if the DVDs contain a religious message, Coppedge testified that, "No, they do not."
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Whoops! Perjury much?

< http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/news.......lawsuit >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You can find the Pretty Planet out on YouTube but you only have to watch part 11 of 12.  (I wish it had been 7 of 9!)

Anyway, all the talking heads are Liars for Jesus and they just can't help themselves from declaring that the universe is a creation of God, by which they mean their God.

Coppedge and the little creationists try to skirt the "ID is not religious" by claiming that the ID literature (in general) doesn't mention the Bible, however we all know that's a dodge and that they're playing word games.

A judge would need only 10 minutes on Google to uncover the entire scam.  Time will tell if the judge is up to it.

But, yeah, Coppedge is lying his head off.  About everything.
Posted by: Dr.GH on Mar. 18 2012,10:13

Quote (Doc Bill @ Mar. 17 2012,20:03)
Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Mar. 16 2012,22:08)
 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Coppedge stated that he is a board member of Illustra Media, the company that produced two DVD documetaries that were submitted into evidence. The films were entitled, "Unlocking the Mysteries of Life," and "The Privileged Planet."

When asked if the DVDs contain a religious message, Coppedge testified that, "No, they do not."
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Whoops! Perjury much?

< http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/news.......lawsuit >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You can find the Pretty Planet out on YouTube but you only have to watch part 11 of 12.  (I wish it had been 7 of 9!)

Anyway, all the talking heads are Liars for Jesus and they just can't help themselves from declaring that the universe is a creation of God, by which they mean their God.

Coppedge and the little creationists try to skirt the "ID is not religious" by claiming that the ID literature (in general) doesn't mention the Bible, however we all know that's a dodge and that they're playing word games.

A judge would need only 10 minutes on Google to uncover the entire scam.  Time will tell if the judge is up to it.

But, yeah, Coppedge is lying his head off.  About everything.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Actually, a judge is not allowed to consider anything not introduced as evidence. So it would be illegal to Google anything related to the trial.

I am sure there will be a court showing of the videos, if the JPL lawyers have any brains.


Posted by: Doc Bill on Mar. 18 2012,12:44

Part 11 of 12 of < Unlocking the Mystery of Life! >

Narrated by three creationists, Nelson, Meyer and Dembski, none of whom are scientists.  They actually claim that Dembski made a significant breakthrough that enables design to be detected.  What a laugh!

Yes, let's hope the Judge shows both the Pretty Planet and Unlocking Creationism in court.  I'll buy the popcorn.
Posted by: Amadan on Mar. 18 2012,13:35

Quote (Dr.GH @ Mar. 18 2012,16:13)
I am sure there will be a court showing of the videos, if the JPL lawyers have any brains.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I would imagine they'll try to avoid the issue of ID/religion. JPL seem to have a reasonable case that Our Hero was asked not to do [x], continued to do so, and was less than adequate at his job and was ultimately made redundant.

No need to let the case drift onto his territory when your own is more than adequate.
Posted by: Febble on Mar. 18 2012,14:15

tbh, I've watched that video (Privileged Planet 11/12) and I wouldn't call it "religious".  It mentions God, but then so does Stephen Hawking in A Brief History of Time - that doesn't make his book religious.

It's putting across the argument that perhaps an Intelligent Designer is indicated by the constants of the universe, which is a legitimate argument (if wrong).

More to the point, JPL isn't defending its position on the basis of the content of Coppedge's views, but on the insensitive way in which he banged on about them at work (including his views, apparently, on gay marriage).

Seems legitimate to me, when you are downsizing, to let go the people whose social skills, or lack of them, are getting in the way of smooth running.


Posted by: Doc Bill on Mar. 18 2012,17:26

Quote (Amadan @ Mar. 18 2012,13:35)
Quote (Dr.GH @ Mar. 18 2012,16:13)
I am sure there will be a court showing of the videos, if the JPL lawyers have any brains.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I would imagine they'll try to avoid the issue of ID/religion. JPL seem to have a reasonable case that Our Hero was asked not to do [x], continued to do so, and was less than adequate at his job and was ultimately made redundant.

No need to let the case drift onto his territory when your own is more than adequate.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The JPL lawyers tried to block entry of the films as evidence but the judge overruled that motion in favor of Coppedge.  However, Coppedge (er, Becker) argued that they needed deWolf to explain the films and the judge said he was competent to evaluate the evidence.

Would the judge have to play the films in court, or could he watch them by himself in chambers?
Posted by: Wesley R. Elsberry on Mar. 18 2012,17:30

Did the JPL co-workers get told that not only did they need the video, but they should take this DI shyster home with them, too?
Posted by: keiths on Mar. 19 2012,20:19

< Jeffrey Kluger > at Time.com:


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
It's been a long time since I graduated law school and was admitted to the bar, and I've surely forgotten more than I remember. But here's one bit of legal street-smarts I've retained: if you're a plaintiff filing a trial brief, you may not want to write it as if it were a screenplay — and then admit that you're making stuff up.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: Kristine on Mar. 19 2012,21:02

Quote (keiths @ Mar. 19 2012,20:19)
< Jeffrey Kluger > at Time.com:
 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
It's been a long time since I graduated law school and was admitted to the bar, and I've surely forgotten more than I remember. But here's one bit of legal street-smarts I've retained: if you're a plaintiff filing a trial brief, you may not want to write it as if it were a screenplay — and then admit that you're making stuff up.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Coppedge wrote his legal brief as a screenplay? :O

Heh. I love the "The intelligent design community cannot always pick its poster children." Welllll, I guess not. Just reach up your noses and find another "poster child," Disco Toots! Dig, dig, dig for someone else, because Normal Desmond wrote his screenplay and is ready for his close-up, Mr. DembskiMille! ("Well...if it gets him down the stairs...") :D

What a trainwreck!
Posted by: Doc Bill on Mar. 19 2012,21:42

His lawyer Becker wrote the brief and, yes, it's a screen play.  Most bizarre thing I've ever read and at first I couldn't believe it was a submitted legal document.

They're nuts.

However, Becker, a workman's comp lawyer, is now playing the Headache Card and poor old Coppy has to lie down every few minutes to rest his poor old melon.  How he ever held a job with such a pulsating brain we'll never know.

Get some popcorn and watch the movie:

< Coppedge day at JPL. >

Starts on Page 4.
Posted by: noncarborundum on Mar. 19 2012,22:14

Quote (Doc Bill @ Mar. 19 2012,21:42)
His lawyer Becker wrote the brief and, yes, it's a screen play.  Most bizarre thing I've ever read and at first I couldn't believe it was a submitted legal document.

They're nuts.

However, Becker, a workman's comp lawyer, is now playing the Headache Card and poor old Coppy has to lie down every few minutes to rest his poor old melon.  How he ever held a job with such a pulsating brain we'll never know.

Get some popcorn and watch the movie:

< Coppedge day at JPL. >

Starts on Page 4.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I read some of that "screenplay".  IANAL, but doesn't this whole case beg for dismissal on the grounds of "what the fuck is wrong with you?"?
Posted by: REC on Mar. 20 2012,00:23



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
"On one occasion Coppedge went as far as talking with a co-worker about the "Gospel of Jesus Christ." He also testified to sharing a DVD called the "Case for Christ" with a fellow employee at Christmas time."

"But his attorney said he wouldn't go as far as to say Coppedge was evangelizing or trying to win converts.

"It wasn't evangelizing," Becker said of the DVD. "It was a Christmas present."
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Lol. After prep, when your attorney is explaining away you answers, you have failed.

All Science! Wonder if that was the employee who wanted a "Holiday Party" instead of a "Xmas Party?" Bring your Jewish or Muslim or Atheist co-worker you're having a disagreement with the "Case for Christ" as a Christmas present? I can't imagine the shitstorm at my work!



---------------------QUOTE-------------------

"I did research some information about judicial candidates because people didn't know much about the judicial candidates," Coppedge said. "People (at work) found that helpful."
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



I'm sure this is in the context of Prop-8. Sure your gay and allied co-workers appreciated your research, asshole.

His own fucking lawyers, his headaches and all, are close to establishing a pattern of clueless dumbassedness, if not straight-up harassment. When does cross-x start?

Link:< Link >
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Mar. 20 2012,01:04

thats whats left of his brain atrophying and detaching from the cranial walls

best part of him stuck to the wall of his glomerulus

this shit couldn't be any funnier if he was up for the death penalty
Posted by: Doc Bill on Mar. 20 2012,16:50

No, your honor, I did not put a dildo on her desk.  That was a Christmas gift.
Posted by: Dr.GH on Mar. 20 2012,17:22

Quote (noncarborundum @ Mar. 19 2012,20:14)
Quote (Doc Bill @ Mar. 19 2012,21:42)
His lawyer Becker wrote the brief and, yes, it's a screen play.  Most bizarre thing I've ever read and at first I couldn't believe it was a submitted legal document.

They're nuts.

However, Becker, a workman's comp lawyer, is now playing the Headache Card and poor old Coppy has to lie down every few minutes to rest his poor old melon.  How he ever held a job with such a pulsating brain we'll never know.

Get some popcorn and watch the movie:

< Coppedge day at JPL. >

Starts on Page 4.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I read some of that "screenplay".  IANAL, but doesn't this whole case beg for dismissal on the grounds of "what the fuck is wrong with you?"?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Yeah?? The lawyer must be at least as crazy as his client.
Posted by: Henry J on Mar. 20 2012,17:26

But can a lawyer use insanity as an excuse?  :p
Posted by: paragwinn on Mar. 20 2012,19:43

I’ve taken a few liberties (none of them religious) with the “screenplay” proffered by Coppedge and Becker in Plaintiff’s Trial Brief filed in Dec 2011 to give what “might have been” a different perspective on events leading up to the trial. As parody and opinion, it makes no claim as to the factual accuracy of events. No real effort was made to structure this as a viable screenplay. Any resemblance to the actual train of events is purely coincidental.

INT. OFFICE SPACE – SOMETIME IN THE DAY

COPPEDGE enters CHIN’S office.
CHIN: Hi, David. I’ve been getting complaints about your treatment of customers and co-workers. I was wondering if you could refrain from broaching sensitive subjects while on the job. I am willing to coach you on it.
COPPEDGE (annoyed): I disagree with your position on it and on every A.S.S.*-inine interpretation of Cassini data. I challenge you to a debate. The parking lot. 3 o’clock.
CHIN: Is there anything I can say to change your mind?
COPPEDGE: No, for the Bible tells me not to.
COPPEDGE eats shoots and leaves.

*A.S.S. = Coppedge-ism for 'Age of the Solar System'

MONTHS LATER

INT. WORK AREA – DAY
CHIN: Hi, David. I’m sorry to inform you that you’re part of a general layoff involving several employees due to budget cutbacks. JPL is making job placement services available. Would you like to participate?
COPPEDGE: Sure, as long as it doesn’t cut into my time maintaing my Creationist website, guiding Creation Safaris, illustrating media at Illustra Media, etc.

COPPEDGE’S HOME – DAY (OR NIGHT, WHENEVER)
DAVID is writing up blog entries on how evo-blinded scientists are wedded to their sacrosanct A.S.S., stopping occasionally to admire the way he came up with the acronym ‘A.S.S.’ But upon reflecting upon events at JPL over the last several months, he becomes increasingly distressed. The compaints were really  about religion!  The demotion was really about religion! The layoff was really about….religion! How heavy-handed and repetitive can I perceive JPL to get?
HIS DVD-LENDING LIST. He notices a pattern forming. Wha??  His co-workers’ lack of appreciation for the considerate comments next to each of their names. Their weak principles blinding them to the truth. What the …?

INT. LAW OFFICE – DAY

Morning at the Becker Law Firm. COPPEDGE moves urgently through the corriders. Out of breath, reaches BECKER’S office.
BECKER: Hi, David. What’s up? You look like you’ve seen a ghost or zombie Jesus.
COPPEDGE: I saw a ghost alright. A spectre of religious persecution!
BECKER: Come again?
COPPEDGE: CHIN ordered me to stop exercising my free speech rights about matters I know I’m right about, and … and –
BECKER: Take a chill pill, David. Tell me what happened. Show me on this doll where you felt violated.
COPPEDGE: It was … horrible. I have an impressive title at Illustra Media. I brave the perils of Creation Safaris. I run a Creationist website almost 24/7, you know. CHIN didn’t care when he’d crossed the line suppressing my freedom of speech in the workplace. I’ve had it with him. I’m so uncomfortable with CHIN having approached me about watching how I treat customers and talking about my lack of awareness in pushing my religiously motivated political, scientific and office party views on an unwilling audience. I couldn’t deal with him on these kinds of issues. And (headache ensues) …
BECKER: There, there. Would you like a hot beverage?
COPPEDGE: … and there was my Red Streamline Stapler on his desk. He always borrows it and never gives it back and – I think he was trying to create a hostile work environment. I don’t want JPL to get away with suppressing my freedom of speech on religious grounds on  company time ever again. I cant stand for it. I just cant!
BECKER: Well, I’ll look into it. Let me know when you want to sue JPL for religious discrimination.
COPPEDGE: You know, I have an impressive title at Illustra Media. I brave the perils of Creation Safaris. I run a Creationist website almost 24/7, and I’m a member of …

AND SCENE.
Posted by: rhmc on Mar. 21 2012,07:32

Quote (paragwinn @ Mar. 20 2012,20:43)
BECKER: Take a chill pill, David. Tell me what happened. Show me on this doll where you felt violated.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------




*snort*
Posted by: Richardthughes on Mar. 21 2012,08:37

Quote (paragwinn @ Mar. 20 2012,19:43)
I’ve taken a few liberties (none of them religious) with the “screenplay” proffered by Coppedge and Becker in Plaintiff’s Trial Brief filed in Dec 2011 to give what “might have been” a different perspective on events leading up to the trial. As parody and opinion, it makes no claim as to the factual accuracy of events. No real effort was made to structure this as a viable screenplay. Any resemblance to the actual train of events is purely coincidental.

INT. OFFICE SPACE – SOMETIME IN THE DAY

COPPEDGE enters CHIN’S office.
CHIN: Hi, David. I’ve been getting complaints about your treatment of customers and co-workers. I was wondering if you could refrain from broaching sensitive subjects while on the job. I am willing to coach you on it.
COPPEDGE (annoyed): I disagree with your position on it and on every A.S.S.*-inine interpretation of Cassini data. I challenge you to a debate. The parking lot. 3 o’clock.
CHIN: Is there anything I can say to change your mind?
COPPEDGE: No, for the Bible tells me not to.
COPPEDGE eats shoots and leaves.

*A.S.S. = Coppedge-ism for 'Age of the Solar System'

MONTHS LATER

INT. WORK AREA – DAY
CHIN: Hi, David. I’m sorry to inform you that you’re part of a general layoff involving several employees due to budget cutbacks. JPL is making job placement services available. Would you like to participate?
COPPEDGE: Sure, as long as it doesn’t cut into my time maintaing my Creationist website, guiding Creation Safaris, illustrating media at Illustra Media, etc.

COPPEDGE’S HOME – DAY (OR NIGHT, WHENEVER)
DAVID is writing up blog entries on how evo-blinded scientists are wedded to their sacrosanct A.S.S., stopping occasionally to admire the way he came up with the acronym ‘A.S.S.’ But upon reflecting upon events at JPL over the last several months, he becomes increasingly distressed. The compaints were really  about religion!  The demotion was really about religion! The layoff was really about….religion! How heavy-handed and repetitive can I perceive JPL to get?
HIS DVD-LENDING LIST. He notices a pattern forming. Wha??  His co-workers’ lack of appreciation for the considerate comments next to each of their names. Their weak principles blinding them to the truth. What the …?

INT. LAW OFFICE – DAY

Morning at the Becker Law Firm. COPPEDGE moves urgently through the corriders. Out of breath, reaches BECKER’S office.
BECKER: Hi, David. What’s up? You look like you’ve seen a ghost or zombie Jesus.
COPPEDGE: I saw a ghost alright. A spectre of religious persecution!
BECKER: Come again?
COPPEDGE: CHIN ordered me to stop exercising my free speech rights about matters I know I’m right about, and … and –
BECKER: Take a chill pill, David. Tell me what happened. Show me on this doll where you felt violated.
COPPEDGE: It was … horrible. I have an impressive title at Illustra Media. I brave the perils of Creation Safaris. I run a Creationist website almost 24/7, you know. CHIN didn’t care when he’d crossed the line suppressing my freedom of speech in the workplace. I’ve had it with him. I’m so uncomfortable with CHIN having approached me about watching how I treat customers and talking about my lack of awareness in pushing my religiously motivated political, scientific and office party views on an unwilling audience. I couldn’t deal with him on these kinds of issues. And (headache ensues) …
BECKER: There, there. Would you like a hot beverage?
COPPEDGE: … and there was my Red Streamline Stapler on his desk. He always borrows it and never gives it back and – I think he was trying to create a hostile work environment. I don’t want JPL to get away with suppressing my freedom of speech on religious grounds on  company time ever again. I cant stand for it. I just cant!
BECKER: Well, I’ll look into it. Let me know when you want to sue JPL for religious discrimination.
COPPEDGE: You know, I have an impressive title at Illustra Media. I brave the perils of Creation Safaris. I run a Creationist website almost 24/7, and I’m a member of …

AND SCENE.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


PotW
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on Mar. 21 2012,09:01

exponented

that shit is so epic it needs to be included in the trial

bravo!!!  *applause*
Posted by: DiEb on Mar. 28 2012,14:01

In an update to the Coppedge trial on Mar 28, 2012 at "Evolution News", David Klinghoffer < writes > about Coppedge's ECAP (Employee Contribution Assessment and Planning), "a yearly report card on job performance":    

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Going back to 2003 when he first started receiving ECAP reviews, 14-year-veteran Coppedge had been "truly appreciated" for his "great job" and "special service," his "appropriate verbal and written communication skills," establishing "effective working relationships." Now another supervisor, Clark Burgess, had collected and reproduced in dense, small type a series of wounding critiques from co-workers, named and unnamed.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------

Klinghoffer calls this "enviable reviews". I don't know much about the American system of such assessment, but I assume that we in Europe have modeled our way after it. And here, such a review would be faint praise, not enviable but at best satisfactory: especially the phrase "appropriate verbal and written communication skills" would indicate that he is lacking in this regard, while "effective working relationships" would imply that he is a little bit autistic. Am I missing something?
Posted by: OgreMkV on Mar. 28 2012,14:28

Quote (DiEb @ Mar. 28 2012,14:01)
In an update to the Coppedge trial on Mar 28, 2012 at "Evolution News", David Klinghoffer < writes > about Coppedge's ECAP (Employee Contribution Assessment and Planning), "a yearly report card on job performance":      

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Going back to 2003 when he first started receiving ECAP reviews, 14-year-veteran Coppedge had been "truly appreciated" for his "great job" and "special service," his "appropriate verbal and written communication skills," establishing "effective working relationships." Now another supervisor, Clark Burgess, had collected and reproduced in dense, small type a series of wounding critiques from co-workers, named and unnamed.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------

Klinghoffer calls this "enviable reviews". I don't know much about the American system of such assessment, but I assume that we in Europe have modeled our way after it. And here, such a review would be faint praise, not enviable but at best satisfactory: especially the phrase "appropriate verbal and written communication skills" would indicate that he is lacking in this regard, while "effective working relationships" would imply that he is a little bit autistic. Am I missing something?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Yeah, in the US, you basically have to murder your boss while on the factory floor to get a negative review.  

Of course, to actually get promoted, your reviews must be better than that of Jesus.

I would agree that those are in the mid to mid-low range.  "Exceeds expectations in both verbal and written communication" would be at the high end.  "Meets Expectations" would be in the mid range.  "Appropriate" sounds like the boss didn't really want to say "he's a dork".
Posted by: Henry J on Mar. 28 2012,15:03

For some reason the phrase "delusions of adequacy" comes to mind here...
Posted by: The whole truth on April 01 2012,18:10

The latest on the < coppedge saga >.
Posted by: Glen Davidson on April 01 2012,18:31

Forget it, the addendum at SC covered what I added.
Posted by: Doc Bill on April 01 2012,21:05

What is really sweet about this case is that the Disco Tute is up to their codpieces in this mess and even have an in-house lawyer working with Becker.  They are totally in.

Yet, they must hate Coppedge to the bone!  Coppers is a young earth biblical literalist creationist who publishes the most outlandish nonsense on his website.  Completely off the DI script.  Coppedge is the loosest canon among loose canons.  They'll never reign him in.  Any pretense of ID being scientific goes right out the ark porthole with Coppy.
Posted by: Glen Davidson on April 02 2012,21:06

< Another not bad report on the Coppedge trial >  Not much about what's actually going on, but it finally tells me something I wanted to know, which is that it's expected to continue for several more weeks.

Mostly good, but I thought this was hardly honest reportage:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
"I thought I might be the next `Expelled,"' Coppedge testified, making a reference to the Ben Stein movie which details the perils faced by those in the scientific community who support intelligent design.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



More like, it makes up many of the perils faced by charlatans, while using frauds' fraudulent claims to suggest that science has no right to keep apologetic dishonesty out of established science.

Glen Davidson
Posted by: MichaelJ on April 02 2012,22:21

The ending was a bit rough as well. It finished with West's whine that the evilutionists wont listen to us. I left a comment there
Posted by: Henry J on April 03 2012,22:42



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
The ending was a bit rough as well. It finished with West's whine that the evilutionists wont listen to us.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Maybe if they said something that hadn't already been refuted repeatedly for the last several decades, then somebody might listen!

On the other hand, when they manage to get yet another refutal of whichever fallacy they used this time, isn't that evidence that somebody listened?

Henry
Posted by: Glen Davidson on April 07 2012,14:01

< Closing arguments may take place next week in the case of a former Jet Propulsion Laboratory worker who claims he was fired for his advocacy of the theory of intelligent design of the universe. >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
[Coppedge's lawyer]Becker said his costs to date are around $75,000, but that does not include his attorney fees. “I won't put a number on it, but you can imagine what two years of work would be,” he said.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Not to mention the screenplay introduced into evidence!  I'd say his work is worth at least 10s of dollars.

Glen Davidson
Posted by: Amadan on April 08 2012,14:21

Reading about Coppedge has for some reason brought the term "loose crayon" to mind.
Posted by: Henry J on April 08 2012,21:59

Crayon? Of what caliber? :p
Posted by: Glen Davidson on April 16 2012,15:14

< We're into the closing arguments now. >  

Otherwise, not much new.  The article states:  "Coppedge was called to a meeting with a supervisor on March 2, 2009, and told to "stop pushing your religion," his attorney William Becker said in his closing argument. The supervisor later claimed he was trying to help Coppedge, but Becker said the statement smacked of religious intolerance."

Oh yes, it's religious intolerance to tell some ranting jerk to shut up about religion to people who don't want to hear it yet can't leave because they're on the job.  If that is indeed what it's about (which it appears to be, but I'm hardly privy to the full range of info), I can see no merit in his whine that he can't proselytize a captive audience.

Glen Davidson
Posted by: Glen Davidson on April 16 2012,19:12

< Interesting snippet from Coppedge's lawyer: >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
In his closing arguments Monday, Becker said Coppedge was holding conversation about intelligent design and creation in much the same way others at JPL discussed traditional science.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Yes, nothing annoying about treating religiously-inspired BS as if it were the same as science, and expecting the science-oriented to treat such religious nonsense as if it were as legitimate science.  How the law treats such matters I really don't know, but I do hope that it is never ruled that government workers have to simply put up with bogus pseudoscience because it is religious nonsense.

Glen Davidson
Posted by: Cubist on April 17 2012,02:39

"holding conversation about intelligent design and creation in much the same way others at JPL discussed traditional science"? Interesting. Unless I'm misreading that, Coppedge's lawyer acknowledged that "intelligent design and creation" are separate and distinct from "traditional science" -- in other words, that ID ain't science!
Posted by: Amadan on April 17 2012,09:26

Here's an idea for a wholesome and entertaining parlour game.

We're going to draft a press release for Coppedge for when the Truth of ID is finally vindicated by the Christian values of American Justice he gets his posterior re-ventilated by the judge.

Let's say that it will have 7 sentences - we don't want the viewers on your local Fox affiliate to be overburdened with a pathetic level of detail.

Simply fill in the blanks below.  Submissions any time up to the actual verdict, a prize of a virtual beer (or sheep, Louis) to be awarded by popular acclaim for the most creative entry :

     

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
American justice . . . . . . . . . . . . Kenya.

Rigid . . . . . . . . . . . . Galileo.

Traditional . . . . . . . . . . . . secularism.

Controversial . . . . . . . . . . . . Darwinism.

'First they came for'  . . . . . . . . . . . . TV script.

Cassini  . . . . . . . . . . . . abortion.

Appealing . . . . . . . . . . . . PayPal.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Actually, looking at it, it would probably do just fine as it is.
Posted by: Woodbine on April 17 2012,10:24

On the occasion of David Coppedge's unsuccessful attempt to sue JPL for wrongful dismissal, eminent historian David Barton said....


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
American justice has until this day been the envy of every foreign man, woman and negro across the globe. If our courts do not overturn this travesty then I fully expect to see a repeat of when Paul Revere started the American civil war by throwing all that coffee overboard in Boston. That's right, South African coffee. From Kenya.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: Tracy P. Hamilton on April 17 2012,13:32

Quote (Woodbine @ April 17 2012,10:24)
On the occasion of David Coppedge's unsuccessful attempt to sue JPL for wrongful dismissal, eminent historian David Barton said....
 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
American justice has until this day been the envy of every foreign man, woman and negro across the globe. If our courts do not overturn this travesty then I fully expect to see a repeat of when Paul Revere started the American civil war by throwing all that coffee overboard in Boston. That's right, South African coffee. From Kenya.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Linky?
Posted by: Amadan on April 17 2012,14:12

Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ April 17 2012,19:32)
Quote (Woodbine @ April 17 2012,10:24)
On the occasion of David Coppedge's unsuccessful attempt to sue JPL for wrongful dismissal, eminent historian David Barton said....
 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
American justice has until this day been the envy of every foreign man, woman and negro across the globe. If our courts do not overturn this travesty then I fully expect to see a repeat of when Paul Revere started the American civil war by throwing all that coffee overboard in Boston. That's right, South African coffee. From Kenya.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Linky?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


ummm, I think Woodbine was giving us some authentic truthiness, Tracey.

Barton may not have said it, but we can be confident that he would have no objection to it being attributed to him. We shall therefore place it on a billboard somewhere with his name under it.
Posted by: NormOlsen on April 17 2012,15:25

Quote (Amadan @ April 17 2012,14:12)
 
Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ April 17 2012,19:32)
 
Quote (Woodbine @ April 17 2012,10:24)
On the occasion of David Coppedge's unsuccessful attempt to sue JPL for wrongful dismissal, eminent historian David Barton said....
     

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
American justice has until this day been the envy of every foreign man, woman and negro across the globe. If our courts do not overturn this travesty then I fully expect to see a repeat of when Paul Revere started the American civil war by throwing all that coffee overboard in Boston. That's right, South African coffee. From Kenya.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Linky?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


ummm, I think Woodbine was giving us some authentic truthiness, Tracey.

Barton may not have said it, but we can be confident that he would have no objection to it being attributed to him. We shall therefore place it on a billboard somewhere with his name under it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Yes, that was some high quality satire.  Kind of like this:

< David Suzuki's Anti-Human CBC >

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
God created the biosphere so that humans could rule over it and make sweet, forcible love to it. He won’t allow it to be ruined, and even promised Noah there would not be another Great Flood. And while several of the species on Noah’s ark have since become extinct, there is convincing evidence that all of them were atheists and prolific masturbators.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Sorry if that's OT but it's so damn good.
Posted by: Tracy P. Hamilton on April 17 2012,15:43

Quote (Amadan @ April 17 2012,14:12)
Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ April 17 2012,19:32)
Quote (Woodbine @ April 17 2012,10:24)
On the occasion of David Coppedge's unsuccessful attempt to sue JPL for wrongful dismissal, eminent historian David Barton said....
   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
American justice has until this day been the envy of every foreign man, woman and negro across the globe. If our courts do not overturn this travesty then I fully expect to see a repeat of when Paul Revere started the American civil war by throwing all that coffee overboard in Boston. That's right, South African coffee. From Kenya.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Linky?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


ummm, I think Woodbine was giving us some authentic truthiness, Tracey.

Barton may not have said it, but we can be confident that he would have no objection to it being attributed to him. We shall therefore place it on a billboard somewhere with his name under it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


That would be ironically appropriate.
Posted by: Trubble on April 17 2012,16:38

Quote (NormOlsen @ April 17 2012,15:25)
Yes, that was some high quality satire.  Kind of like this:

< David Suzuki's Anti-Human CBC >

   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
God created the biosphere so that humans could rule over it and make sweet, forcible love to it. He won’t allow it to be ruined, and even promised Noah there would not be another Great Flood. And while several of the species on Noah’s ark have since become extinct, there is convincing evidence that all of them were atheists and prolific masturbators.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Sorry if that's OT but it's so damn good.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



I got a chuckle from Vrooman's obviously tongue-in-cheek post. Then I made the mistake of reading the comments. It appears the majority of them think he was being serious. I'm not sure what this says about the acuity of the average reader, but good christ, it says nothing good.
Posted by: Wesley R. Elsberry on April 19 2012,00:23

< News article on closing arguments >

The article says that the lawyers have six weeks to compose their final briefs and the judge should rule within ten days of receiving those. So expect a ruling anytime between two weeks and the early part of June.
Posted by: MichaelJ on April 19 2012,16:39

Frustrating that we can't get the sense from the articles on how the case went. I suppose that is good in a way as it would only be truly newsworthy if Coppedge turned up some concrete evidence of discrimination.
Sadly though, JPL only seems to have started documented problems with Coppedge after the fateful meeting with Chin. Even if he was trying to protect him he should have documented everything.
Posted by: Doc Bill on April 19 2012,17:43

As a supervisor you simply can't "document everything."

Document all faults, disagreements, negative comments by customers?  How about successes, agreements, positive comments by customers?

Can you imagine doing that for 20 people in your section?

Nope.  The bottom line was that Coppedge was a crank such that 80% (according to court documents) of his client base didn't want him near their stuff.  One director even went so far as to hire a sys admin just to keep Coppedge out of their business.

I think it's close to universal that a company doesn't have to "justify" firing an employee.  There is "firing for cause" which usually involves violence, drugs, absenteeism, etc but when it comes to a layoff, you're either in or you're out.

Coppedge didn't keep up his skills and made himself obsolete.

I think the real story is how the Disco Tute most likely engineered both suits, provided Coppedge with legal counsel and who knows what promises.  Maybe 79 virgin Casey Luskin's. Hey, you never know!
Posted by: midwifetoad on April 19 2012,21:04

Florida is an at will state. The company I worked for in 2001 was severely damaged by people's fear of air travel after 9/11, and shortly thereafter I was at won't.
Posted by: Amadan on April 20 2012,04:21

Quote (Doc Bill @ April 19 2012,23:43)
Maybe 79 virgin Casey Luskin's. Hey, you never know!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Well, at least you can be sure that they can deliver according to specification.
Posted by: Schroedinger's Dog on April 20 2012,04:47

Quote (Amadan @ April 20 2012,11:21)
Quote (Doc Bill @ April 19 2012,23:43)
Maybe 79 virgin Casey Luskin's. Hey, you never know!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Well, at least you can be sure that they can deliver according to specification.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Can't. Stop. Laughing.
Posted by: Richardthughes on May 01 2012,12:32

< http://www.latimes.com/news....6.story >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
...

In 2010, he filed suit, alleging religious discrimination and harassment. Less than a year later, he was laid off, and added a wrongful termination claim. In the flurry of legal filings since, Coppedge included cartoons posted at JPL that he said mocked intelligent design. His attorney also wrote up a key conversation as a screenplay, complete with stage directions.

Defense attorneys scoffed at the accusation that Coppedge was targeted because of his beliefs. Due to budget cuts, including to the Cassini project, more than 200 employees also lost their jobs.

Coppedge had also waved off suggestions to update his computer skills and was saddled with a reputation for being "unwilling to listen and always having to do things his way," defense attorneys said in court papers.

In fact, during closing arguments, Fox asked the judge to recall Coppedge's demeanor on the witness stand. He repeatedly wandered off topic to discuss intelligent design.


---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Emphasis mine.
Posted by: Henry J on May 01 2012,13:51



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
In the flurry of legal filings since, Coppedge included cartoons posted at JPL that he said mocked intelligent design.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So he thinks they shouldn't be allowed to make fun of claims that aren't substantiated and don't actually explain, well, anything?
Posted by: fnxtr on May 01 2012,20:57

Quote (Henry J @ May 01 2012,11:51)


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
In the flurry of legal filings since, Coppedge included cartoons posted at JPL that he said mocked intelligent design.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So he thinks they shouldn't be allowed to make fun of claims that aren't substantiated and don't actually explain, well, anything?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Well, that's religion for ya... oh, wait, ID isn't religious. What? It is now? Well, colour me shocked.
Posted by: Wesley R. Elsberry on Sep. 07 2012,21:07

< The Coppedge Case Drags On >

Now they're saying maybe there will be a decision in a year or two.
Posted by: Doc Bill on Sep. 09 2012,11:31



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
“I’ve asked some really good lawyers and nobody knows the answer,” Becker said. “One lawyer told me it’s as long as he wants to take. It could take a year, two years.”
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Really good lawyers, eh?  What, unlike himself or the flacks he normally hangs around with?  

Really, really, like, good, lawyers.

I assume the judge could rule against Coppedge with no comment.  Simply, "no, go away."

For anyone out there with experience in these kinds of wrongful termination cases, is Coppedge typical?
Posted by: Sealawr on Sep. 12 2012,17:04

Quote (Doc Bill @ Sep. 09 2012,11:31)
 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
“I’ve asked some really good lawyers and nobody knows the answer,” Becker said. “One lawyer told me it’s as long as he wants to take. It could take a year, two years.”
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Really good lawyers, eh?  What, unlike himself or the flacks he normally hangs around with?  

Really, really, like, good, lawyers.

I assume the judge could rule against Coppedge with no comment.  Simply, "no, go away."

For anyone out there with experience in these kinds of wrongful termination cases, is Coppedge typical?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Yes, the judge could rule against Coppedge with a simple "judgment for defendant."

If the plaintiff or defendant requests a "Statement of Decision," then the judge must prepare a written opinion goign into some detail.  Most judges know how to write these to bulletproof them on appeal.

Under California law, the judge must render a decision within 90 days after the case has been submitted.

Reading between the lines in the linked article, Becker has continued to submit post-trial briefs, essentially re-setting the 90 day clock.

I suspect that's why JPL is not filing a response to his latest--they don't want to re-set the clock any more.

The judge also has the power to prohibit further filings.  I do not know why the judge has not done so in this case.  Most judges I know would have cut Becker off by now and rendered the decision.
Posted by: Wesley R. Elsberry on Nov. 01 2012,22:38

< Judge issues "tentative ruling" in favor of JPL >



---------------------QUOTE-------------------

A former computer specialist at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory was not dismissed because he advocated his belief in intelligent design while at work, a Superior Court judge has tentatively ruled.

Judge Ernest Hiroshige said Thursday he is leaning in favor of JPL's argument that David Coppedge instead was let go because he was combative and did not keep his skills sharp.

Hiroshige, who presided over the lawsuit's trial in April, ordered a final ruling to that effect be drawn up and distributed within 30 days.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: sparc on Nov. 02 2012,06:09

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Nov. 01 2012,22:38)
< Judge issues "tentative ruling" in favor of JPL >

   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------

A former computer specialist at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory was not dismissed because he advocated his belief in intelligent design while at work, a Superior Court judge has tentatively ruled.

Judge Ernest Hiroshige said Thursday he is leaning in favor of JPL's argument that David Coppedge instead was let go because he was combative and did not keep his skills sharp.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


---------------------QUOTE-------------------

Unfortunately, it is unlikely that we will see a post at UD or EN&V stating it is fine to preach ID at work as long as you are not an asshole towards your colleagues.
Posted by: Sealawr on Jan. 17 2013,14:07

Judge has issued final decison confirming the tentative.


No surprise--standard legal procedure in California.

< http://www.lacanadaonline.com/news....2.story >
Posted by: Doc Bill on Jan. 17 2013,15:33

Appeal!

We shall be entertained!

Shades of Kitzmiller, I'll bet the judge simply plagiarized the defense attorney's findings.  I smell conspiracy!

Coming this summer:  Coppedge 2:  Expected Journey
Posted by: J-Dog on Jan. 17 2013,16:53

Quote (Doc Bill @ Jan. 17 2013,15:33)
Appeal!

We shall be entertained!

Shades of Kitzmiller, I'll bet the judge simply plagiarized the defense attorney's findings.  I smell conspiracy!

Coming this summer:  Coppedge 2:  Expected Journey
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It will dwarf the competition!
Posted by: Sealawr on Jan. 17 2013,17:09

Quote (Doc Bill @ Jan. 17 2013,15:33)



Shades of Kitzmiller, I'll bet the judge simply plagiarized the defense attorney's findings.  I smell conspiracy!


---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Correctamundo!

"Becker — who declined to comment beyond his written statement — contended that by “rubber-stamping” JPL’s proposed judgment, and not issuing a thorough written ruling of his own, it would work in Coppedge’s favor going forward."

Actually, no it doesn't.  Judges routinely "rubberstamp" the winner's proposed judgment.  That's why the winner is known as "the winner."
Posted by: Glen Davidson on Jan. 17 2013,17:25

Ha ha, Becker loses that money for which he was hoping.  Yeah, you really earned it, chump.  Good attorneys actually consider whether or not they have a case...

Go ahead, squeeze Coppedge.  Bet you won't get much, but he'll get to suffer for listening to a fool like you.

Glen Davidson
Posted by: fnxtr on Jan. 17 2013,17:28

Quote (Sealawr @ Jan. 17 2013,12:07)
Judge has issued final decison confirming the tentative.


No surprise--standard legal procedure in California.

[URL=http://www.lacanadaonline.com/news/tn-818-0117-judge-confirms-earlier-ruling-sides-with-jpl-in-intelligent-design-case,0,2898



922.story]http://www.lacanadaonline.com/news....2.story[/URL]
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


404.

eta: Found if you go to their "818 now" tab.

p.s. why do these clowns all look the same?
Posted by: fnxtr on Jan. 17 2013,17:35



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
"a handful of “malicious co-workers hated [Coppedge’s] Christian views,” as well as his interest in intelligent design, “which they ignorantly perceived to be a religious concept.”
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



As a friend said recently, "sometimes the schaden just freuds itself".
Posted by: JohnW on Jan. 17 2013,18:21

Quote (fnxtr @ Jan. 17 2013,15:35)


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
"a handful of “malicious co-workers hated [Coppedge’s] Christian views,” as well as his interest in intelligent design, “which they ignorantly perceived to be a religious concept.”
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



As a friend said recently, "sometimes the schaden just freuds itself".
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Are any Christian colleges looking for a new Martyr In Residence?
Posted by: OgreMkV on Jan. 18 2013,08:08

Quote (JohnW @ Jan. 17 2013,18:21)
Quote (fnxtr @ Jan. 17 2013,15:35)


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
"a handful of “malicious co-workers hated [Coppedge’s] Christian views,” as well as his interest in intelligent design, “which they ignorantly perceived to be a religious concept.”
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



As a friend said recently, "sometimes the schaden just freuds itself".
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Are any Christian colleges looking for a new Martyr In Residence?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Teaching Load:

1) Historical Computer Science - learn about obsolete programming languages and networking protocols.  

2) Advanced Topics in Human Resources - Conflict resolution and disciplinary actions

3) Introduction to Witnessing - How to fake migraine headaches while in front of a judge.

4) Advanced Witnessing -Harassing coworkers for Jesus.
Posted by: Arctodus23 on Mar. 05 2013,17:24

All the "reports" I've seen, were in "Expelled".
Posted by: The whole truth on Oct. 12 2015,00:27

< http://americanloons.blogspot.com/2015....ge.html >
Posted by: KevinB on Oct. 12 2015,08:17

Quote (The whole truth @ Oct. 12 2015,00:27)
< http://americanloons.blogspot.com/2015.......ge.html >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Is he going to claim that the blog site persecuted him by taking so long to getting round to him?
Posted by: Henry J on Oct. 12 2015,09:33

Quote (KevinB @ Oct. 12 2015,07:17)
Quote (The whole truth @ Oct. 12 2015,00:27)
< http://americanloons.blogspot.com/2015.......ge.html >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Is he going to claim that the blog site persecuted him by taking so long to getting round to him?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Sensory deprivation?
Posted by: KevinB on Oct. 12 2015,10:23

Quote (Henry J @ Oct. 12 2015,09:33)
Quote (KevinB @ Oct. 12 2015,07:17)
Quote (The whole truth @ Oct. 12 2015,00:27)
< http://americanloons.blogspot.com/2015.......ge.html >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Is he going to claim that the blog site persecuted him by taking so long to getting round to him?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Sensory deprivation?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Certainly not common sensory deprivation....
end


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