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  Topic: Walter D. Wright's thread, pre-programmed and other theories of evo< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
nmgirl



Posts: 92
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: June 07 2010,14:06   

is walter bjray's grandfather?

  
iWalter276



Posts: 9
Joined: June 2010

(Permalink) Posted: June 07 2010,14:07   

Dear Richard Hughes (and those that agree with him),

No doubt I have come across as an individual that 'has the characteristics of speculation.' You may say it with tounge and cheek; however speculation or Hypothesis or Axioms, science has been building upon this premise for hundreds of years. You may be a parrot; however, I am trying to break out of the box.

--------------
Walter D. Wright

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 07 2010,14:08   

Quote (iWalter276 @ June 07 2010,20:07)
Dear Richard Hughes (and those that agree with him),

No doubt I have come across as an individual that 'has the characteristics of speculation.' You may say it with tounge and cheek; however speculation or Hypothesis or Axioms, science has been building upon this premise for hundreds of years. You may be a parrot; however, I am trying to break out of the box.

I am trying to break into the box. Where's the entrance? Will there be slippers?

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 07 2010,14:11   

Quote (iWalter276 @ June 07 2010,13:49)
.Why is the door for equality in educational thinking welded shut? Is that a dumb ass question?

No, it's not a dumbass question.

It's a lie.

The door was open for creationism in the 19th century, when creationists tried their hardest to defend their notions against the new kid on the block, evolution via natural selection. They lost that fight, just as the adherents to phlogiston theory lost in the previous century when a better and more useful explanation supplanted phlogiston.

The door of science is always open for new ideas and new evidence. It's open if you can come up with new evidence that your old notions might be right. But that's the problem. Neither you nor anyone else has any new evidence for creationism or creationism-lite (aka ID). And whining about the door being shut is not evidence. It's just whining.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 07 2010,14:24   

Quote (iWalter276 @ June 07 2010,14:07)
Dear Richard Hughes (and those that agree with him),

No doubt I have come across as an individual that 'has the characteristics of speculation.' You may say it with tounge and cheek; however speculation or Hypothesis or Axioms, science has been building upon this premise for hundreds of years. You may be a parrot; however, I am trying to break out of the box.

Have you tried eating with your bum and pooping with your mouth? That would be box-breaking alright.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
iWalter276



Posts: 9
Joined: June 2010

(Permalink) Posted: June 07 2010,14:25   

Quack,
That remark 'are you a doctor' - quack was supposed to be a friendly joke. However you have given me the best advice.
I wish not to waste anyone time. I was not giving my "sob story" but a reason, since I was snidded for spelling, why I cannot see as well as I can. But I asssume getting to know one another is 'old fashioned' and as remarked, am I someone 'grandfather?' Aluding to the fact that I believe in God and have antiquated ideas.
I posted my sites in good faith, hoping for good feedback, felt attacked, responded in kind and asked to leave due to wasting my time as well as yours.

I wish you all well in your pursuit of Intellect and knowledge and you all will make fine candidates for the 14th century sequestering team.

Work hard in the belief of your supioriority. Thank you Louis for at least being part way civil. And to the rest. Yes, I am real, just pushing the 'thinking envelope,' an exercise I would recommend.

--------------
Walter D. Wright

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 07 2010,14:27   

Hey Walter, 'different' isn't always 'better'. Some healthy skepticism if good - but here's the million dollar question - do you apply that skepticism equally to all things?

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 07 2010,14:32   

Quote (iWalter276 @ June 07 2010,20:25)
[SNIP]

Thank you Louis for at least being part way civil. And to the rest. Yes, I am real, just pushing the 'thinking envelope,' an exercise I would recommend.

You are most welcome. Now, that "thinking envelope", what's the postage for one of those?

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2333
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 07 2010,14:32   

Walter, here is a link to a cute little piece on nucleosynthesis. It is written in simple terms, with lots of pretty cartoons.

There is a special section just about carbon. Good luck.

(Just a hint about the "probability of a triple alpha reaction: It happens inside stars with the temperature about 6*10^8 degrees K, and a pressure of about 2*10^5 grams per cubic centimeter. And it does not require three nucleons to interact simultaneously. In fact there is 10^-16 seconds that the Beryllium 8 nucleus exists. If that seems like a very short time- it is. But, it is chemically a very long time since the reaction only takes about 10^-21 seconds. Therefore, the existence of (8)Be is about at equilibrium. This does "up the odds").

Edited by Dr.GH on June 07 2010,12:51

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 07 2010,14:39   

I am concerned that preloaded evolution cannot explain how much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood.

Needless to say that neither can CreationIDism, so that's makes them both useless and we can ignore them in favour of Assault Rifle Jesus's favourite bedtime story.

I think that we need to think outside the box whilst pushing the envelope into another box and refusing to accept dogma whilst challenging any and all attempts to cast a sceptical eye on anything.

It's all the fault of the communists and anyone who wants to prevent people praying in schools to nuclear missiles.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 07 2010,14:52   

Quote (iWalter276 @ June 07 2010,13:35)
To: Oldmanintheskydidntdoit.
My inquiry of "Where did the first self-replicating molecule come from? How did it come to be?" was not to avoid an answer, it was to obtain an answer that Darwinian Evolution(I will still choose to use the term, Selectivity), has not shown. Therefore, how can Darwinism be considered a Scientific theory any more than ID, if both Theories cannot answer the basic question, which is: "Where did the the first self-replicating  molecule or cell come from?"
Mr. Michael Ruse only has guesses, so unless you know something he does not, you might write him. Fair is fair.
Based on the fact that both Theories cannot answer the basic question gives both Theories equality, does it not?

"Darwinian Evolution" is only concerned with the activity that happens after entities that can replicate themselves exist.

The origin of those replicating units was not considered by Darwin in published works.

   
Quote
Mr. Michael Ruse only has guesses, so unless you know something he does not, you might write him. Fair is fair.

Abiogenesis research on the other hand has progressed well past "guesses".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis#Other_models
I personally think auto-catalysing networks hold much promise

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki....reation

You may consider them guesses as the work was not handed down directly via clay tablets. Yet more scientific research happens in those fields a day then has happened in the entire history of Intelligent Design.
   
Quote
Therefore, how can Darwinism be considered a Scientific theory any more than ID, if both Theories cannot answer the basic question, which is: "Where did the the first self-replicating  molecule or cell come from?"

Many theories cannot answer that question yet they are considered scientific. As Darwinism does not attempt to address that question it cannot be judged on it's ability to answer it. Intelligent Design, on the other hand, does claim to be able to answer that question. And as you have noted, it cannot, therefore it is not scientific.

Thank you for admitting that, at least.
   
Quote
Based on the fact that both Theories cannot answer the basic question gives both Theories equality, does it not?

As noted, one theory is not concerned with the question you are asking. Putting that aside, there is a massive body of evidence supporting "Darwinism" and a natural origin of life. Even if you put all that aside as "guesses" you still cannot say a single thing relevant to the origin of life with regard to it's origin via Intelligent Design.

If you think otherwise, feel free to note what ID says about the origin of life, other then "it was designed". Which I kinda guessed anyway.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 07 2010,14:56   

Quote (iWalter276 @ June 07 2010,14:25)
I wish you all well in your pursuit of Intellect and knowledge and you all will make fine candidates for the 14th century sequestering team.

Work hard in the belief of your supioriority. Thank you Louis for at least being part way civil. And to the rest. Yes, I am real, just pushing the 'thinking envelope,' an exercise I would recommend.

Oh, we done already? I guess I should have read the entire thread before bothering to write my last reply.

Ok, well fuck you then. I guess that's what you want said? Now you can claim the nasty evolutionists swear and poke fun and that's why you [strike]chickened out. [/strike] left with your dignity intact.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2333
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 07 2010,14:59   

I think we should have a "No profanity until page three of any creatobot thread" rule. Maybe even until page four.

They just quit.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 07 2010,15:16   

Hi Walter,

I was actually in the process of writing a longer response to you but it seems that you're already leaving, so I won't bother.

I'm sorry that you felt offended by my statement that you probably don't know what a scientific theory is, but maybe then you shouldn't produce videos in which you claim that it's plagiarism if scientists refine and extend existing theories because you can only claim that if you haven't the foggiest idea what a scientific theory is. Or was that another "sarcastic statement?"

You single-handedly dismiss 150 years of scientific achievements but scientists are the ones with their nose in the air who don't realize that they don't have a clue. According to you, their life-long study and research amounts to nothing ("degree of underachievement"), while your 40 years of armchair study apparently gives you great expertise not only in biology but in physics as well.

It seems that you prefer to use polemics instead of factual arguments yourself but don't like it if you're answered in the same vein...

Anyway, if you're still looking for a pro-ID forum, why not try Uncommon Descent? You'd fit in perfectly, really.

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 07 2010,15:25   

Quote (Dr.GH @ June 07 2010,20:59)
I think we should have a "No profanity until page three of any creatobot thread" rule. Maybe even until page four.

They just quit.

We accidentally the creationist?*

Louis

*With apologies to any /b/tards watching. Herp derp derp.

--------------
Bye.

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 07 2010,15:44   

Quote (iWalter276 @ June 07 2010,11:35)
To: Oldmanintheskydidntdoit.
My inquiry of "Where did the first self-replicating molecule come from? How did it come to be?" was not to avoid an answer, it was to obtain an answer that Darwinian Evolution(I will still choose to use the term, Selectivity), has not shown. Therefore, how can Darwinism be considered a Scientific theory any more than ID, if both Theories cannot answer the basic question, which is: "Where did the the first self-replicating  molecule or cell come from?"
Mr. Michael Ruse only has guesses, so unless you know something he does not, you might write him. Fair is fair.
Based on the fact that both Theories cannot answer the basic question gives both Theories equality, does it not?

Newton's theory of gravitation cannot answer the basic question, which is: "Where did the first mass come from?"  Is it a scientific theory, Walter?  It does seem to work rather well.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 07 2010,16:42   

Quote
Therefore, how can Darwinism be considered a Scientific theory any more than ID, if both Theories cannot answer the basic question, which is: "Where did the the first self-replicating  molecule or cell come from?"

That's not the basic question. The questions addressed by evolution theory are (1) why is a single nested hierarchy so prevalent across known life forms, (2) why are closely related species clustered near each other geographically, (3) why is it so common to find evidence that a later species is a modified copy of an earlier species, etc. (a biologist could no doubt make a much longer list). Those patterns are a direct logical consequence of the premises on which evolution theory is based, and that's why evolution is accepted by scientists, and why it is what gets taught in science classes (at least those that are properly run).

To put this another way, arguing against a theory requires addressing the questions that the theory does answer, and showing that it answers them incorrectly, not by referring to questions that it doesn't address.

 
Quote
As a chemist, you know, three Helium nuclei, with the same harmonics, at the same velosity, need to meet at the same instant to make the nuclei for a Carbon Atom.

I'm not a physicist, but that doesn't sound right. Oh, three He atoms is one way to make a carbon, but other ways that come to mind are 1+5=6 (H+B=C), 2+4=6 (He+Be=C), and 3+3=6 (Li+Li=C), none of which require more than two nuclei hitting each other at the same time.

 
Quote
Seriously, natural selection does not have any kind of creative power at all. All it does is kill of the runts.
- Unknown creationist.  

Mutations increase the amount of variety within the species or population. Selection happens when varieties that don't do as well become a smaller fraction of that population. It's the positive feedback from repetitive variation plus selection that produces new abilities in the members of the species, not either of those mechanisms by itself.

 
Quote
But science cannot prove Darwinian Selectivity,

That depends on what one means by "prove". What scientists can do (and have done) is figure out what patterns would be highly likely consequences of the premises in the theory, and highly unlikely to occur together if it's wrong, and check if those patterns are routinely observed. (I listed three such patterns in an earlier paragraph.)

 
Quote
a very, very valid Scientific Question is this: Which microbial life form did the dinosaurs come from? Was it different than the mammals?

See website http://tolweb.org/Amniota/14990 for the relationships of those groups of species. Their common ancestor was an early reptile or reptile-like species, not a microbe.

 
Quote
Did/do species evolve, and what is the cause? Examining all available evidence is a good place to start.

That is what scientists do. It's how the theory was formulated in the first place.

 
Quote
ALL matter is “Pre-programmed!!!

If that's your way of saying that two atoms of the same element will undergo the same chemical reactions when put in the same circumstances, then yes. But I don't see the point of putting it that way.

Quote
Why Carbon is the most plentiful element in the Universe when it should not be according to the laws of Fusion,

I would expect the relative abundance of elements to generally go down as the atomic number goes up. I don't offhand know what a "law of fusion" is, unless it's a funny way of saying that elements with 2 or more protons are produced by fusion of lighter nuclei, mostly in stars plus some that happened before the universe cooled off from the big bang.

Henry

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 07 2010,16:49   

Quote (Louis @ June 07 2010,12:39)
I am concerned that preloaded evolution cannot explain how much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood.

Needless to say that neither can CreationIDism, so that's makes them both useless and we can ignore them in favour of Assault Rifle Jesus's favourite bedtime story.

I think that we need to think outside the box whilst pushing the envelope into another box and refusing to accept dogma whilst challenging any and all attempts to cast a sceptical eye on anything.

It's all the fault of the communists and anyone who wants to prevent people praying in schools to nuclear missiles.

Louis

"The clarity is devastating, but where is the ambiguity? Over there, in a box."

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 07 2010,16:58   

Hey, Wally?

Still there?

Just one more thing:

You vent about them sci-en-tif-ical types with all their high-falutin' language and stuff, and yet you engage in the worst linguistic obfuscation I've ever seen.  

It doesn't make you look like a poet, or an artiste, or particularly clever, it makes you look like you don't have the cojones to use straight talk to say what you really mean.  

Or that you don't even know what you really mean.

(Danger: Saxon word ahead!)...

Get to the fucking point, already.

Thank you.

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 07 2010,17:09   

Quote (Louis @ June 07 2010,12:32)
Quote (iWalter276 @ June 07 2010,20:25)
[SNIP]

Thank you Louis for at least being part way civil. And to the rest. Yes, I am real, just pushing the 'thinking envelope,' an exercise I would recommend.

You are most welcome. Now, that "thinking envelope", what's the postage for one of those?

Louis

A penny for your thoughts?  Or do you have to put your 2 cents in?  (pace Carlin).

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 07 2010,19:00   

Quote (iWalter276 @ June 07 2010,13:18)
Please inform me. Is the name of this URL:
"Intelligent Design Creationism Adovcates?
The name implies, all involved are pro ID.
Am I mistaken?
Respectfully,

First, "URL" is an acronym for "Uniform Resource Locator". It's the thing with an "http://" prefixing it in the address bar of your browser, not the content of any graphic or text on the page that your browser displays once it retrieves the URL.

Second, the graphic in question alludes to the course-credit-for-online-trolling policy of IDC advocate William A. Dembski, where students are required to enter into discussions online defending IDC in order to earn a certain percentage of points toward their grade in a philosophy course he teaches.

Most people don't have that sort of cognitive issue in parsing the graphic and figuring out what it means.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 07 2010,19:52   

Walter's an ESL student, right?  Why do IDiots assume lots of words equal smart?  A little advice, if you're open to it, Walter:

fewer words
more focus
single idea

it'll help

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
sledgehammer



Posts: 533
Joined: Sep. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: June 07 2010,20:34   

Quote (iWalter276 @ June 07 2010,11:49)
It does not make me a prude; but why should I have to subject myself to it? It is called respect... Is that a dumb ass question? I don't think so.

Hey! Show some self-respect here.
 
Quote
I could care less what your belief system is.

Thanks for caring.

--------------
The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time. The terror of their tyranny is alleviated by their lack of consistency. -A. Einstein  (H/T, JAD)
If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. ?Think about that. -K. Hovind

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 07 2010,23:04   

In my previous post I mentioned expecting that the abundance of elements would go down as the atomic number went up. That does seem a reasonable first approximation, but might have exceptions. One factor that occurs to me is that the average bonding energy (i.e., how much less rest mass is present in the nucleon than it had as a free particle) also varies with atomic number, and nuclei with higher bonding energy nuclei might form more readily than those with lower bonding energy.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 08 2010,03:11   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ June 08 2010,01:00)
[SNIP]

Most people don't have that sort of cognitive issue in parsing the graphic and figuring out what it means.

Yeah, but Wes, most people aren't right. You have to remember we are all evil Darwinist commies trying to legislate away Wally's right to shoot assault rifles whilst praying at school. Or something.

Our interpretation of our own words is simply wrong. We're all pro-ID apparently.

HTH HAND

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Quack



Posts: 1961
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 08 2010,04:18   

Walter, you probably won't read this but anyway, just in case:

You struck me as somewhat like an elephant barging into a china store.

In short, your strategy was absolutely disastrous.

A better strategy that might work better for you in future forays into the evil world of science would be to cut down on the crap, make at least your initial message(s) short and to the point. Just state your position, your intentions, and maybe ask a couple of questions about basic, fundamental issues.

It was - and is - most unwise to come charging with a chip on your shoulder, declaring that according to you personal opinion, 150 years of science is only so much bullshit.

I wish you better luck in the future, unless you are too stubborn to learn & take sound advice, but it is, as they say, your own funeral.  (With English not being my language, I may not always get my metaphors right.)

EDIT: A couple of hours later after I have been using the time to think while mowing the lawn:

I told you I am  
Quote
I am not much except an old fellow who spent a lifetime trying to learn and understand as much as possible of the universe and mankind.

and feel like asking: Do you spend any time trying to learn and understand?

What I conceive as a fundamental difference between you and the rest of us here, is that it seems you don't do anything to verify your "knowledge". Your dead wrong statements about carbon comes to mind.

Whether you decide that your goodbye was final or not, here then is what I try to do all the time - and what I recommend that you do too:

I check my facts.

I started typing distribution of elements and Google obligingly offered a number of choices, of which I chose in the universe and got 6 600 000 results.

I offer just #4 What Is the Most Abundant Element?

Quote
What Is the Most Abundant Element?

Answer: The most abundant element in the universe is hydrogen, which makes up about 3/4 of all matter! Helium makes up most of the remaining 25%. Oxygen is the third most abundant element in the universe. All of the other elements are relatively rare.

Ignorance may be overcome, but stupidity is incurable.

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Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2333
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: June 08 2010,07:39   

Quote (Henry J @ June 07 2010,21:04)
In my previous post I mentioned expecting that the abundance of elements would go down as the atomic number went up. That does seem a reasonable first approximation, but might have exceptions. One factor that occurs to me is that the average bonding energy (i.e., how much less rest mass is present in the nucleon than it had as a free particle) also varies with atomic number, and nuclei with higher bonding energy nuclei might form more readily than those with lower bonding energy.

Henry, the abundances of some elements like beryllium are much lower than a log linear model expects, and it turns out they all form with a particularly unstable intermediate. Others, like iron, are much more abundant and have a nucleus far more stable than average- particularly to neutron and alpha irradiation.

See the link I posted earlier.

An additional good resource is Hydrogen Fussion in Stars.

Edited by Dr.GH on June 08 2010,06:00

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
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