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Antievolution.org Discussion Board > From the Panda's Thumb > After the Bar Closes... > Behe's response

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Albatrossity2 Posts: 2780 Joined: Mar. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 28 2007,17:33    BA77 bloviates on at Behe's latest Amazon atrocity. Not only does he reinvoke his notion from UD that "melanin=information" and more melanin= more information, he parades his ignorance and mendaciousness proudly.     Quote Many times, naturalists parade examples of reproductive isolation between close sub-species ( Horse & Donkey; Grizzly Bear & Polar Bear; Various Insects etc.. etc..) as stunning proof of evolution. Yet, the hard evidence of exhaustive experimentation indicates that the information for variation was already "programmed" into the parent species's genetic code and the sub-species, or what is sometimes known as the pure breed, becomes devoid of much of the variety that was present in the genetic code of the parent species. Bad news for those bears being only subspecies now... -------------- Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind Has been obligated from the beginning To create an ordered universe As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.                         - Pattiann Rogers

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 29 2007,23:58    Nick Matzke adds to Behe's latest humiliation

Albatrossity2 Posts: 2780 Joined: Mar. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2007,06:10    Over at Behe's Amazon blog, Philip Cunningham (aka BA77), has left the building (again).     Quote I'm sure when you find the conclusive evidence of the limit being violated many people will want to see it....until you find this evidence I'm going on to other things,,,I'm sure I'll see you later...so take care...and I wish you well! -------------- Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind Has been obligated from the beginning To create an ordered universe As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.                         - Pattiann Rogers

Altabin Posts: 308 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2007,16:33    Jesus, everyone recalibrate their irony filters for Behe's latest (arguing that Miller adopts "Darwinism" for theological reasons, and is thus a stealth closet ID supporter): Quote My own view (which Miller spectacularly fails to grasp) is that, as a scientist, one is obliged to look at the evidence of nature dispassionately and nonjudgmentally. If the coherence and complexity of the malaria parasite point to its purposeful design by an intelligent agent, then that’s where the data point.  As a scientist, one is not allowed to pass judgment on the morality of nature. To reject the weight of evidence because it shows the universe to be something unpalatable is to betray science. Let's not forget the endless bleating from UD and the DI that "Darwinism leads to Nazism," "ooh, look, Dawkins says that the universe is meaningless, which is a horrible thing to say, which means he doesn't love his children and likes fascism" and infinite other permutations of the is-ought fallacy... But, predictably, they just love it at UD. --------------

Albatrossity2 Posts: 2780 Joined: Mar. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2007,16:43    Quote (Altabin @ Oct. 30 2007,16:33) Jesus, everyone recalibrate their irony filters for Behe's latest (arguing that Miller adopts "Darwinism" for theological reasons, and is thus a stealth closet ID supporter):       Quote My own view (which Miller spectacularly fails to grasp) is that, as a scientist, one is obliged to look at the evidence of nature dispassionately and nonjudgmentally. If the coherence and complexity of the malaria parasite point to its purposeful design by an intelligent agent, then that’s where the data point.  As a scientist, one is not allowed to pass judgment on the morality of nature. To reject the weight of evidence because it shows the universe to be something unpalatable is to betray science. Let's not forget the endless bleating from UD and the DI that "Darwinism leads to Nazism," "ooh, look, Dawkins says that the universe is meaningless, which is a horrible thing to say, which means he doesn't love his children and likes fascism" and infinite other permutations of the is-ought fallacy... But, predictably, they just love it at UD. This is the same lame Amazon Behe blatherfest from whence Philip Cunningham (aka bornagain77) was sent packing yesterday (see my post above). I wonder if he will reminisce at UD about his triumphs over the Darwinists on that comment thread. Maybe they can give him some better ideas so that he lasts a bit longer in his next venture outside the UD crib. -------------- Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind Has been obligated from the beginning To create an ordered universe As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.                         - Pattiann Rogers

Albatrossity2 Posts: 2780 Joined: Mar. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2007,17:16    Yay! Joe g is back in action on Behe's blog. The dumbest IDiot in the entire galaxy is parading his ignorance on a prime-time venue. All Science So Far! -------------- Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind Has been obligated from the beginning To create an ordered universe As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.                         - Pattiann Rogers

Albatrossity2 Posts: 2780 Joined: Mar. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 02 2007,13:42    Behe attempts to rebut Nick Matzke's EoE review in Trends in Ecology & Evolution. Here is part 1. He promises two more to follow. No mention of the name of the author of the review, and thus no ad hominem arguments until the second paragraph   Quote Like almost all reviews by Darwinists, this one begins with a genuflection to the Dover trial, where a former-head-of-the-Pennsylvania-Liquor-Control-Board-appointed-judge... Comments are open; have fun. -------------- Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind Has been obligated from the beginning To create an ordered universe As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.                         - Pattiann Rogers

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 02 2007,14:02    God that is a tardfest. Why don't batshit77's nannyfilters kick in over there? JAM you are one crazy dude.  I don't have the tard tolerance you do buddy.  Hats Off!!! -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

Mr_Christopher Posts: 1238 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 02 2007,14:47    Behe opines: Quote Even if God purposely designed the malarial parasite, He may not have decreed that a particular infected mosquito would bite a particular person on a particular day, or that a particular tiger would eat some one in particular. In the case of the tiger (designed or not), for example, a human’s fate might depend on when he decides to go for a walk, which route he takes, etc., etc. Nature and human life would still be chockful of contingency and freedom. Gosh that makes so much sense.  The designed the malaria parasite but it's not his fault if you become infected with it.  You should have never lived in Africa in the first place, dolt!   It never ceases to amaze me how so many christians like Behe can ignore and/or rationalize obvious moral issues brought on by this religious nonsense.  When held to even the most marginal moral code, God/the inteligent designer is a very sick and perverted bastard. "Hey god made the malarial parasite but he didn't force you to live in Africa!  You should count your blessings!" I think it was Camus who said something close to when a christian sees an innocent child whose eyes have been burned out they must either abandon their faith or burn their own eyes out.  I think he was on to something. -------------- Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

Doc Bill Posts: 1039 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 02 2007,20:09    Hang on a minute. Behe is describing what God does or does not, can or can not do. How does Behe know this?  Or even suggest it? Like Behe's entire Life's Work this comes under the heading of Making Stuff Up. Behe can't possibly know what God thinks about a tiger or a mosquito, much less what the tiger or mosquito thinks, or does. HG Frankfurt would call this "bullshit." So do I.  Bullshit, Behe.

ERV Posts: 329 Joined: Sep. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 02 2007,21:47    Funny insider info-- Okay, the HIV research world is cut-throat.  You do NOT talk about your research until its already on its way to publication land, as competition is thick and fierce. One of the PIs I emailed for more info on Vpu was just wonderful-- very nice, very helpful, very prompt replies.  But even though Im just a random grad student in the middle of nowhere, he kept this ace up his sleeve: Modulation of the severe CD4(+) T-cell loss caused by a pathogenic simian-human immunodeficiency virus by replacement of the subtype B vpu with the vpu from a subtype C HIV-1 clinical isolate. Quick translation-- those 'pathetic' changes in Vpu?  Yeah, those pathetic changes alone can drastically alter disease progression.  Its a sweet paper, and it references any paper you could want to read on the sequence, structure, biological, and clinical evolution of Vpu accumulated thus far. ROFL!  Poor Behe.  Im gonna have my 'reply' up to him sometime this weekend-- Its an off weekend for tests, so Im actually going to have time to sit down and figure out a way to turn "Wow.  Youre an asshat." into a nice post...

Art Posts: 69 Joined: Dec. 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 02 2007,22:05    Behe passes off ubiquitin-mediated degradation as gumming things up.  Apparently, he is not impressed with, um, sex determination, photomorphogenesis, neurogenesis, eye development, meiosis, root development, etc., etc., etc.  (These and more all involve Ub-mediated protein turnover.) I wonder if he has written Stockholm, demanding that the 2004 Nobel Prize in Chemistry be revoked. I'm amazed at how much biology he has to shove under the rug, just to save his book.

JAM Posts: 517 Joined: July 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2007,01:17    Quote (Art @ Nov. 02 2007,22:05) Behe passes off ubiquitin-mediated degradation as gumming things up.  Apparently, he is not impressed with, um, sex determination, photomorphogenesis, neurogenesis, eye development, meiosis, root development, etc., etc., etc.  (These and more all involve Ub-mediated protein turnover.) I wonder if he has written Stockholm, demanding that the 2004 Nobel Prize in Chemistry be revoked. I'm amazed at how much biology he has to shove under the rug, just to save his book. That's might be a good stiletto, Art. Have you ever tried it on any lay subjects? They at least get the idea of the Nobel in Chemistry. From my dealings with the Tard, it seems to draw a lot of its force from the idea that those of us who argue against it study only evolution.

Albatrossity2 Posts: 2780 Joined: Mar. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2007,08:06    It appears that somebody finally alerted Behe to the fact that he was taking a pounding on the comment threads at his Amazon blog. Comments on every thread except the rebuttal to ERV seem to be really disabled now, at least for me. If anyone else can post a comment, please let us know here. Perhaps it is just a temporary glitch? One can only hope; there were some interesting discussions going on over there, and it was a very public forum. -------------- Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind Has been obligated from the beginning To create an ordered universe As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.                         - Pattiann Rogers

Jim_Wynne Posts: 1208 Joined: June 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2007,18:59    And speaking of ERV, her answer to Behe is up, and it's a dandy. -------------- Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2007,10:42    Quote Alas, noticing that I am indeed a woman appears to be the crown jewel of your observational capabilities, and nicely explains why you yourself are not involved in the research world in any meaningful capacity. Ouch.

J-Dog Posts: 4402 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2007,10:52    Quote (Jim_Wynne @ Nov. 04 2007,18:59) And speaking of ERV, her answer to Behe is up, and it's a dandy. Those pictures of Behe that she links to are a VAST improvement over the balding lumber-jack Behe pictured on his Amazon House Of Pain site. I wish she hadn't done that - now it's gonna be harder to get the hate on for Behe... -------------- Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10 Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08 UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2007,11:17    A commenter on ERV's site says Quote DS  said...    Seriously. I used to think that Behe had an agenda and was just blinded by his faith. He has become such a caricature that I now think he merely likes the attention (and the money). As you pointed it out beautifully (especially in the last few paragraphs) he's not even making an effort to make sense anymore. He's mailing it in because he knows the people who agree with him don't care what he says, and he will get ripped to shreds by science no matter what he says. It's getting sad (I guess it never wasn't).  (my bolding) That's exactly right. Behe doesn't have to bother saying anything scientifically defensible, because his audience will never listen to an actual researcher like ERV. They're zealots.

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2007,11:24    It can't help that ERV is an HIV researcher, because so many Intelligent Design people are also HIV deniers.

Albatrossity2 Posts: 2780 Joined: Mar. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2007,06:41    Part II of Behe's response to Matzke's review of his book is up at Amazon. Comments are disabled (I guess they learned that lesson), so I guess we have to comment here and at PT. -------------- Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind Has been obligated from the beginning To create an ordered universe As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.                         - Pattiann Rogers

Zachriel Posts: 2723 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2007,21:18    Part III is up. You can get there via Nick's latest post at The Panda's Thumb. -------------- You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

Zachriel Posts: 2723 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2007,21:32    Some highlights from Behe's blog: Quote Part I: Like almost all reviews by Darwinists, this one begins with a genuflection to the Dover trial, where a former-head-of-the-Pennsylvania-Liquor-Control-Board-appointed-judge, showing no evidence he actually understood the academic arguments of either side, copied almost word for word the document handed to him at the end of the trial by the lawyers for the complainant. This was his “decision.” For signing off on a document castigating intelligent design the apparently clueless judge got his picture in Time magazine, was bequeathed honorary degrees, and has been lionized by all the right people. Always good to start with the traditional scientific boilerplate, "former-head-of-the-Pennsylvania-Liquor-Control-Board-appointed-judge". Quote Part II: Truly in this instance the Darwinian elephant labored mightily and brought forth a gnat. A gnat being a very complex organism. Quote Part III: And this: “He is obsessed with ‘randomness,’ which he incorrigibly associates with ‘Darwinism’ and cosmic purposelessness.” Now, wait a darn second. Wasn’t it Darwin himself, we are constantly assured, who based his theory on “random” variation? As Nick points out, Darwin didn't know the source or nature of variation, the word 'random' never appearing in Origin of Species. -------------- You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2007,21:39    In case you fell off a turnip truck yesterday and trust Michael Behe, here's a more detailed description from Wikipedia: Quote Early life, education, and law career Jones was born in 1955 in Pottsville, Pennsylvania and raised in Orwigsburg, Pennsylvania, where he attended Blue Mountain High School. He graduated high school from Mercersburg Academy. He earned his Bachelor of Arts degree from Dickinson College in 1977 and law degree from Dickinson School of Law in 1980. At that time, the school was unaffiliated with Pennsylvania State University. After clerking for Guy A. Bowe, the president-county judge for Schuylkill County from 1980 to 1983, Jones joined the law firm of Dolbin & Cori. When he was made a partner, the name of the firm was changed to Dolbin, Cori & Jones. In 1986, Judge Jones began his own private practice, John Jones & Associates. He spent the next years as a trial lawyer. He also served as solicitor for several municipalities, including his hometown of Pottsville, and was a part-time assistant Schuylkill County public defender until 1995. From around 1992 until his appointment to the federal bench, Jones served as counsel to the Reading firm of Roland & Schlegel. [edit] Political career In 1992, Jones unsuccessfully ran for the U.S. House of Representatives for the Sixth Congressional District seat and then was co-chair of the transition team for Governor-elect Tom Ridge. Jones was the chairman of the Pennsylvania Liquor Control Board from 1995 to 2002, a period marked by some controversy. He was part of a failed attempt to privatize state stores, and he banned Bad Frog Beer after determining that its label (a frog giving the finger) was in bad taste. He briefly considered running for Governor in 2001, but was appointed to fill a vacancy on the U.S. District Court for the Middle District of Pennsylvania by President George W. Bush in February 2002. He was unanimously confirmed by the U.S. Senate on July 30 and was commissioned on August 2. [edit] Service on federal bench Jones was assigned to the Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District bench trial, the first direct challenge brought in the federal courts against a school district that mandated the teaching of intelligent design. He was praised by Tom Ridge, former Pennsylvania Governor and former head of the Department of Homeland Security, who said that "I can't imagine a better judge presiding over such an emotionally charged issue... he has an inquisitive mind, a penetrating intellect and an incredible sense of humor."[1]

bystander Posts: 301 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 06 2007,22:52    As a non-scientist, it has been hard going, but rewarding, educating myself on the whole HIV issue so I can see the holes in Behe's argument. It still boils down to Behe: X and there are no studies contradicting this Others: What about all of these studies? Behe: Insignificant Others: They are not insignificant because Y and Z. Behe: Gratuitous Insults Others: Wanker What burns me up if that I take the time to study the evidence so I can understand the majority position. Ftk on the other hand reads nothing and declares it all on gut feel.

oldmanintheskydidntdoit Posts: 4999 Joined: July 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 07 2007,02:58    Quote (bystander @ Nov. 06 2007,22:52) Ftk on the other hand reads nothing and declares it all on gut feel. I think the difference is the difference! FTK can whine away and it'll never make any difference because "her" position has been the default position since humanity could conceive of a higher power. Been there, done that. FTK's position is being dropped as the generations change. I doubt her kids will have the same set of attitudes that she does, despite "her" best efforts to program them. Since FTK reads nothing she cannot criticize on the level of the evidence and so her slings and arrows are too blunt to matter. They don't reach the evidence. People like Behe give the appearance of dealing with the scientific substance, but it's only an appearance. Put a science sounding gloss on "god did it" and people like FTK are happy. They don't understand the "why" of it, but they understand the message even if they skip the maths. The maths is just there to signpost "this is really science proving your god exists". -------------- I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies". FTK if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand Gordon Mullings

ERV Posts: 329 Joined: Sep. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 07 2007,16:46    Quote (bystander @ Nov. 06 2007,22:52) It still boils down to Behe: X and there are no studies contradicting this Others: What about all of these studies? Behe: Insignificant Others: They are not insignificant because Y and Z. Behe: Gratuitous Insults Others: Wanker Can I steal that?  I will reference you!

bystander Posts: 301 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 08 2007,05:54    Quote (ERV @ Nov. 08 2007,09:46) Quote (bystander @ Nov. 06 2007,22:52) It still boils down to Behe: X and there are no studies contradicting this Others: What about all of these studies? Behe: Insignificant Others: They are not insignificant because Y and Z. Behe: Gratuitous Insults Others: Wanker Can I steal that?  I will reference you! ERV Sure, 'tis nothing compared to your great putdowns!

Bob O'H Posts: 2564 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 10 2007,06:00    From Part III of Behe's reply to Nick Matzke: Quote And isn’t there a rather well-known evolutionary biologist with the initials Richard Dawkins currently traveling the world to tell us exactly that Darwinism means purposelessness? So, what's his full name? Richard Ian Cornelius Henry Angus Robert Daniel Denyse Albert William Kenneth Ivan Nelson Springer? -------------- It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

Assassinator Posts: 479 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 10 2007,12:08    Got a little question :) Quote I look forwards to Behe attempting to defend all the various aspects of his "work" that have been demolished so far in reviews. Can anyone post links to those reviews? (I already got the TolkOrigins link)

JonF Posts: 634 Joined: Feb. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 10 2007,16:59    Quote (Assassinator @ Nov. 10 2007,13:08) Got a little question :) Quote I look forwards to Behe attempting to defend all the various aspects of his "work" that have been demolished so far in reviews. Can anyone post links to those reviews? (I already got the TolkOrigins link) http://www.sunclipse.org/?p=123

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