Printable Version of Topic
-Antievolution.org Discussion Board
+--Forum: After the Bar Closes...
+---Topic: The DI's latest martyr: Guillermo Gonzalez started by Jason Spaceman
Posted by: Jason Spaceman on May 13 2007,01:37
---------------------QUOTE------------------- Intelligent design scientist denied tenure at Iowa State
Leading proponent of theory targeted by atheists, linked to Taliban, in 2005
Posted: May 12, 2007 6:45 p.m. Eastern
© 2007 WorldNetDaily.com
A leading proponent of intelligent design, who was targeted by atheist professors in 2005, has been denied tenure at Iowa State University.
Assistant professor of astronomy and physics Guillermo Gonzalez, co-author of "The Privileged Planet: How Our Place in the Cosmos Is Designed for Discovery," was one of three members of the ISU faculty denied promotion or tenure of the 66 considered during the past academic year, reported the Ames, Iowa, Tribune.
"I was surprised to hear that my tenure was denied at any level, but I was disappointed that the president at the end denied me," Gonzalez said yesterday.
In 2005, three ISU faculty members drafted a statement and petition against intelligent design in the science curriculum that collected 120 signatures.
Claims for intelligent design, said the ISU faculty statement "are premised on (1) the arbitrary selection of features claimed to be engineered by a designer; (2) unverifiable conclusions about the wishes and desires of that designer; and (3) an abandonment by science of methodological naturalism.
"Whether one believes in a creator or not, views regarding a supernatural creator are, by their very nature, claims of religious faith, and so not within the scope or abilities of science. We, therefore, urge all faculty members to uphold the integrity of our university of 'science and technology,' convey to students and the general public the importance of methodological naturalism in science, and reject efforts to portray intelligent design as science."
Similar petitions were published by faculty at the University of Iowa and the University of Northern Iowa. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Read it < here. >
Posted by: "Rev Dr" Lenny Flank on May 13 2007,07:12
Now he can go join Dr Dr Bill at the Podunk Academy of God, or whatever.
Posted by: lkeithlu on May 13 2007,07:28
Check this out about Baylor's Beckwith leaving the Evangelicals and becoming a catholic (again)
< http://www.abpnews.com/2139.article >
Posted by: "Rev Dr" Lenny Flank on May 13 2007,07:45
Quote (lkeithlu @ May 13 2007,07:28) | Check this out about Baylor's Beckwith leaving the Evangelicals and becoming a catholic (again)
< http://www.abpnews.com/2139.article > ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Maybe the church will pay to send him to law school.
(snicker) (giggle)
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on May 13 2007,12:32
Quote (lkeithlu @ May 13 2007,07:28) | Check this out about Baylor's Beckwith leaving the Evangelicals and becoming a catholic (again)
< http://www.abpnews.com/2139.article > ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
As an aside, from that same site, has anyone noticed that 'pro-family' seems to mean < nothing more > than 'anti-gay'?
Yep, fag bashing should solve all the problems of families everywhere.
Posted by: Robert O'Brien on May 13 2007,14:47
Refusing to grant tenure to Guillermo Gonzalez is clearly ideologically/politically motivated. He has at least 55 publications in his field according to ISI Web of Knowledge, which is more than his most vociferous critics have accomplished.
Posted by: Ichthyic on May 13 2007,15:07
---------------------QUOTE------------------- Refusing to grant tenure to Guillermo Gonzalez is clearly ideologically/politically motivated. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
well, if the university has violated its own tenure rules in rejecting gonzales, surely gonzales can sue them in court.
oh wait, gonzales is not pursuing the matter?
hmm.
Posted by: Glen Davidson on May 13 2007,15:52
While I'm not expert on Gonzalez's qualifications, my impression is that he should have been given tenure.
Yes, I know, he doesn't sound very convincing on Privileged Planet, but his other ideas are taken seriously in other fora, and he may be right that the best place to look for really old earth rocks is the moon.
I'd give him some trouble over the Privileged Planet nonsense, of course, as it's all too close to the marvel that the cat has holes in its skin where his eyes happen to be. It's like the psychics, retrofitting the facts to be their "predictions", marveling that we can scientifically understand the universe, even though it took a good 4 billion + years for life to get to the stage of scientific understanding.
But he does good work, and I can't see denying him tenure over his manifestly politico-religious positions, at least unless I've seen that the latter affects his actual work. I suppose I'd have to hold my nose to vote tenure for him, yet I think that I would. Now if someone has evidence that his pseudoscientific notions do affect either his teaching or his work, I'd be likely to change my mind.
Glen D
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on May 13 2007,16:03
Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 13 2007,14:47) | Refusing to grant tenure to Guillermo Gonzalez is clearly ideologically/politically motivated. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
'Clearly'? So why were the other two professors denied tenure?
Should someone who thinks Noah's Ark carved the Grand Canyon be given tenure at a geology department?
As anyone who's been around academia any length of time can tell you, people have been denied tenure for far less.
Posted by: Robert O'Brien on May 13 2007,16:57
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ May 13 2007,16:03) | ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
---------------------QUOTE------------------- 'Clearly'? ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
That's what I wrote.
---------------------QUOTE------------------- So why were the other two professors denied tenure? ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Dunno.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Should someone who thinks Noah's Ark carved the Grand Canyon be given tenure at a geology department? ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Possibly, but in any event that is far removed from Guillermo Gonzalez's "cosmological ID."
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
As anyone who's been around academia any length of time can tell you, people have been denied tenure for far less. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
And people have been granted tenure for far less.
Posted by: "Rev Dr" Lenny Flank on May 13 2007,17:07
Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 13 2007,14:47) | Refusing to grant tenure to Guillermo Gonzalez is clearly ideologically/politically motivated. He has at least 55 publications in his field according to ISI Web of Knowledge, which is more than his most vociferous critics have accomplished. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Alas, universities are under no obligation to provide people with secure pulpit from which to preach their religious opinions.
Let him go to the Texas School of Seminary or whatever, with Dr Dr Bill.
(shrug)
Posted by: Robert O'Brien on May 13 2007,17:10
Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ May 13 2007,17:07) | Alas, universities are under no obligation to provide people with secure pulpit from which to preach their religious opinions.
Let him go to the Texas School of Seminary or whatever, with Dr Dr Bill.
(shrug) ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Lenny, where are your 55+ publications in astronomy? Anyway, he did not introduce his avocational cosmological ID ideas into his classroom.
Posted by: "Rev Dr" Lenny Flank on May 13 2007,17:13
Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 13 2007,17:10) | Lenny, where are your 55+ publications in astronomy? ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
The same place as yours. (shrug)
Posted by: "Rev Dr" Lenny Flank on May 13 2007,17:14
I think it's long past the time when nutters should be treated like. . .. well . . . like nutters.
I see no reason to give tenure to nutters.
And the nutters can weep about that all they like.
Posted by: Robert O'Brien on May 13 2007,17:23
Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ May 13 2007,17:14) | I think it's long past the time when nutters should be treated like. . .. well . . . like nutters. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I am glad you finally came to that realization. When will you start taking lithium bicarbonate?
Posted by: Richardthughes on May 13 2007,17:26
Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 13 2007,17:23) | Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ May 13 2007,17:14) | I think it's long past the time when nutters should be treated like. . .. well . . . like nutters. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I am glad you finally came to that realization. When will you start taking lithium bicarbonate? ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Wow BobTard you're the funniest thing since..erm...eh...a burning orphanage.
Posted by: Robert O'Brien on May 13 2007,17:30
Quote (Richardthughes @ May 13 2007,17:26) | Wow BobTard you're the funniest thing since..erm...eh...a burning orphanage. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
It's a gift.
Posted by: guthrie on May 13 2007,17:34
I don't think Lennie suffers from manic-depressive illness. Rather, a uni-polar dislike of nutters, but since thats not listed as a mental illness, there's nothing he needs to be on.
Posted by: Richardthughes on May 13 2007,17:44
Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 13 2007,17:30) | Quote (Richardthughes @ May 13 2007,17:26) | Wow BobTard you're the funniest thing since..erm...eh...a burning orphanage. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
It's a gift. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I hope you kept the receipt.
*jumps into ROFLcopter to escape the LOLocaust*
Posted by: "Rev Dr" Lenny Flank on May 13 2007,17:44
Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 13 2007,17:23) | Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ May 13 2007,17:14) | I think it's long past the time when nutters should be treated like. . .. well . . . like nutters. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I am glad you finally came to that realization. When will you start taking lithium bicarbonate? ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Har har har. That was, well, clever beyond measure, Robert. Take you a long time to think that one up, did it?
Ya know, my mommy wears combat boots, too.
Posted by: lkeithlu on May 13 2007,19:09
So, what was the reason he was denied? I thought that universities in general did not make this public, as it can get in the way of a person applying for a tenure track position elsewhere. Do we know for certain it was for his ID work? Tenure is based on many criteria, including scholarship, teaching effectiveness, and service to one's institution and the greater community.
Posted by: stevestory on May 13 2007,19:15
The UDers are firing off emails based on the notion Gonzales was denied tenure for supporting ID. It might be true, but it's stupid to assume.
Posted by: "Rev Dr" Lenny Flank on May 13 2007,19:24
Quote (stevestory @ May 13 2007,19:15) | The UDers are firing off emails ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Yeah, THAT will help. (snicker) (giggle)
Posted by: Cedric Katesby on May 13 2007,20:40
"I am glad you finally came to that realization. When will you start taking lithium bicarbonate? "
Wow. Think of the wit it would take to come up with a comment like that. :O
Posted by: blipey on May 13 2007,20:48
Quote (Cedric Katesby @ May 13 2007,20:40) | "I am glad you finally came to that realization. When will you start taking lithium bicarbonate? "
Wow. Think of the wit it would take to come up with a comment like that. :O ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
adn too spell it "right", to!!!
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on May 13 2007,23:23
Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ May 13 2007,17:13) | Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 13 2007,17:10) | Lenny, where are your 55+ publications in astronomy? ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
The same place as yours. (shrug) ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I find it hilarious that a person who's published nothing (Robert) regularly insults anti-ID people for not publishing enough. It takes a certain really profound lack of self-awareness to do that, which is, of course, why Robert does it well.
Sure people are free to support ID and to think that the Grand Canyon is a few thousand years old. And university faculties are free to reject such beliefs as junk science. Universities are not obliged to have affirmative action programs whereby they have to admit people teaching religiously-based 'science' into their faculties.
Posted by: Ichthyic on May 14 2007,00:22
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
And people have been granted tenure for far less. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
as if you would know.
---------------------QUOTE------------------- Wow. Think of the wit it would take to come up with a comment like that. :O ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
yes, I often refer to him as the witless wonder when he gets going on a posting binge, as he is wont to do from time to time.
and of course, everyone reminds him why he had a tardilicious award named in his honor.
I have yet to see him ever contribute an original thought to any forum.
btw there, bobbo, Lenny HAS actually recently published a book.
...and you?
thought so.
Posted by: Louis on May 14 2007,02:24
{Chemist hand goes up}
Erm, and unless I'm mistaken (which is possible) it is lithium carbonate NOT the bicarbonate (i.e. lithium hydrogen carbonate) which is used for treatment of bipolar disorder.
Louis
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on May 14 2007,09:13
Quote (Louis @ May 14 2007,02:24) | {Chemist hand goes up}
Erm, and unless I'm mistaken (which is possible) it is lithium carbonate NOT the bicarbonate (i.e. lithium hydrogen carbonate) which is used for treatment of bipolar disorder.
Louis ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Now, how exactly would you know that?
Posted by: Louis on May 14 2007,09:14
I erm work in the erm pharmaceutical industry. It's not like some sort of secret you know.
Louis
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on May 14 2007,09:15
Quote (Louis @ May 14 2007,09:14) | I erm work in the erm pharmaceutical industry. It's not like some sort of secret you know.
Louis ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Likely story.
Posted by: Louis on May 14 2007,09:22
But I'm not bipolar, I'm brilliant
Louis
Added in edit: No I'm not I'm worthless.
Added in further edit: Sod that, I'm wonderful. Quick to the credit card spending spree!
Added in yet further edit: Oh woe is me etc, I've over done it, I'm a complete failure.
{I'm not taking the micky out of BPD, it's a terrible disease, ask Stephen Fry}
Posted by: J-Dog on May 14 2007,11:18
Quote (Louis @ May 14 2007,09:22) | But I'm not bipolar, I'm brilliant
Louis
Added in edit: No I'm not I'm worthless.
Added in further edit: Sod that, I'm wonderful. Quick to the credit card spending spree!
Added in yet further edit: Oh woe is me etc, I've over done it, I'm a complete failure.
{I'm not taking the micky out of BPD, it's a terrible disease, ask Stephen Fry} ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Louis - IMO, Post Of The Week (UP!) - course it isonly Monday (down)...
I would have made it a Monthly Award Nomination, if it had a rugby reference in it...
Go Cats!
Posted by: CCP on May 14 2007,12:22
Nobody who is spouting off their opinion on this (or any other) specific tenure case knows what they are talking about. He's got pubs? Then it wasn't about that. ISU is a research-intensive institution and my guess is he did not obtain sufficient external funding. Yes, that's enough--it happened to me! Alternatively, the very fact that petitions against him have been circulated is enough of a reason to deny him based on collegiality criteria. Even if an institution has hard & fast black & white criteria for tenure, there's always a little weaseling room in the wording to permit the denial of total assholes etc.
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on May 14 2007,13:31
If you haven't already done so, see < Ed's blog > for a good discussion of this, with some very apropos remarks about just how arbitrary the awarding or not rewarding of tenure often/usually is.
Even Heddle says some sensible things:
---------------------QUOTE------------------- One comment: as Sean Carrol's experience points out, tenure always, or almost always, has a political component, and that very well may have played a part on Gonzalez's case. We may never know, because there is enough linguistic wiggle-room in any tenure decision and committee report (And believe me I know, I once served on and chaired the university faculty committee that was the stage before the provost in tenure decisions) to obfuscate political motivations by committee members. A committee member who wants to derail a candidacy need only say things like "I don't think this candidate's track record on acquiring grants is promising enough to award tenure" even when he really means "I don't like this guy" for whatever reason.
And in a sense the ID community, as it always does, will suffer for the ineptitude of its leadership. For given that they see conspiracies with greater ease than John Birchers saw commies, they have desensitized everyone to any future claim of ID discrimination. With Gonzalez, who is by leaps and bounds the best of the marquis IDers, it will be hard for them to champion his case simply because they cry wolf too often. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Tenure is a brutal process, no one denies that. Whether it's a Grand Atheist Conspiracy, as many IDers automatically assume (and as ROB thinks is 'clear'), is a different question.
Posted by: Gunthernacus on May 14 2007,13:48
---------------------QUOTE------------------- < Dr. Dr. Dembski wrote >: If I ever became the president of a university (per impossibile), I would dissolve the biology department and divide the faculty with tenure that I couldn’t get rid of into two new departments: those who know engineering and how it applies to biological systems would be assigned to the new “Department of Biological Engineering”; the rest, and that includes the evolutionists, would be consigned to the new “Department of Nature Appreciation” (didn’t Darwin think of himself as a naturalist?). ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
This whole IDist business of righteous indignation about Gonzalez is a mixture of unwitting projection and bitter jealousy.
Posted by: blipey on May 14 2007,13:54
---------------------QUOTE------------------- Dr. Dr. Dembski wrote: If I ever became the president of a university ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Bob Jones U might be looking.
Posted by: J-Dog on May 14 2007,14:03
Thank you DaveTard for the link - Here is my email
'president@iastate.edu'
Dr. Geoffroy,
Thank you for leading a university that has to courage to stand up for the separation of church and state and deny tenure to an idiot like Guillermo Gonzalez. “Privileged Planet” my gluteus maximus! He made Iowa State a laughing stock – now maybe he can seek tenure at a more suitable environment… like Liberty University.
Thanks again for the truly “intelligent” decision!
Posted by: BWE on May 14 2007,14:09
Quote (guthrie @ May 13 2007,17:34) | I don't think Lennie suffers from manic-depressive illness. Rather, a uni-polar dislike of nutters, but since thats not listed as a mental illness, there's nothing he needs to be on. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Need - as in Maslow? Because,...
Posted by: Wesley R. Elsberry on May 14 2007,15:00
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
And people have been granted tenure for far less.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
And, as Sean Carroll's case shows, people have been denied tenure for far more.
I think that the remaining perturbation, that of people having been granted tenure for far more, need not be explored.
Posted by: Robert O'Brien on May 14 2007,15:55
Quote (Richardthughes @ May 13 2007,17:44) | I hope you kept the receipt.
*jumps into ROFLcopter to escape the LOLocaust* ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Good comeback.
Posted by: Robert O'Brien on May 14 2007,15:57
Quote (J-Dog @ May 14 2007,14:03) | Thank you DaveTard for the link - Here is my email
'president@iastate.edu'
Dr. Geoffroy,
Thank you for leading a university that has to courage to stand up for the separation of church and state and deny tenure to an idiot like Guillermo Gonzalez. “Privileged Planet” my gluteus maximus! He made Iowa State a laughing stock – now maybe he can seek tenure at a more suitable environment… like Liberty University.
Thanks again for the truly “intelligent” decision! ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Thank you for demonstrating the lack of native intelligence of the opposition.
Posted by: Robert O'Brien on May 14 2007,15:58
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ May 14 2007,15:00) |
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
And people have been granted tenure for far less.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
And, as Sean Carroll's case shows, people have been denied tenure for far more.
I think that the remaining perturbation, that of people having been granted tenure for far more, need not be explored. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Was he denied tenure?
Posted by: Robert O'Brien on May 14 2007,16:02
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ May 13 2007,23:23) | I find it hilarious that a person who's published nothing (Robert) regularly insults anti-ID people for not publishing enough. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I am surrounded by people who have impressive publication records in mathematics and statistics, and they are my measuring stick.
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on May 14 2007,16:03
Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 14 2007,16:02) | Quote (Arden Chatfield @ May 13 2007,23:23) | I find it hilarious that a person who's published nothing (Robert) regularly insults anti-ID people for not publishing enough. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I am surrounded by people who have impressive publication records in mathematics and statistics, and they are my measuring stick. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
My point remains unchanged.
Posted by: blipey on May 14 2007,16:19
Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 14 2007,16:02) | Quote (Arden Chatfield @ May 13 2007,23:23) | I find it hilarious that a person who's published nothing (Robert) regularly insults anti-ID people for not publishing enough. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I am surrounded by people who have impressive publication records in mathematics and statistics, and they are my measuring stick. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Can you see over their ankles? A lot of Lilliputians can be dangerous, but just one is merely sad.
Posted by: Louis on May 14 2007,16:22
---------------------QUOTE------------------- Even Heddle says some sensible things: ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Arden,
No.
I'm sorry we just don't say things like that. Go and stand in the corner and think very hard about what you've done.
Louis
P.S. Lest some wag think I'm serious and biased against poor, poor Davey Heddle: I'm not. 'Sa joke. Heddles' point was.....gack....actuallly...very.....yeurk......sensible..
{sound of panting}
See?
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on May 14 2007,16:26
Quote (Louis @ May 14 2007,16:22) |
---------------------QUOTE------------------- Even Heddle says some sensible things: ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Arden,
No.
I'm sorry we just don't say things like that. Go and stand in the corner and think very hard about what you've done.
Louis
P.S. Lest some wag think I'm serious and biased against poor, poor Davey Heddle: I'm not. 'Sa joke. Heddles' point was.....gack....actuallly...very.....yeurk......sensible..
{sound of panting}
See? ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Now, see, Louis? Was that so hard?
Posted by: Louis on May 14 2007,16:29
Quote (J-Dog @ May 14 2007,18:18) | I would have made it a Monthly Award Nomination, if it had a rugby reference in it...
Go Cats! ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Are you a fan of the mighty mighty Leicester Tigers also?
All I can say is 44 to 16. We've got Wasps this weekend for the Heineken Cup, and if we play like we did on Saturday, we'll bloody murder 'em.
Louis
P.S. For those of an unfortunately foreign disposition (you have my pity for losing life's great lottery and not being born an Englishman) The Leicester Tigers are a rugby union team who have won 2 of the three tournaments that it is possible to win this season We are the best club in the UK and if all goes well this weekend, the best club in Europe.
Tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrs
Posted by: Louis on May 14 2007,16:31
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ May 14 2007,23:26) | Now, see, Louis? Was that so hard? :p ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Yes. I'm going for a lie down in a darkened room. Have the house boy fetch me a Mint Julip and an ice pack. I think I've sprained my tolerance gland.
Louis
Posted by: guthrie on May 14 2007,16:59
Quote (BWE @ May 14 2007,14:09) | Quote (guthrie @ May 13 2007,17:34) | I don't think Lennie suffers from manic-depressive illness. Rather, a uni-polar dislike of nutters, but since thats not listed as a mental illness, there's nothing he needs to be on. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Need - as in Maslow? Because,... ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
BEcause he needs beer I suppose.
Posted by: Wesley R. Elsberry on May 14 2007,17:50
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Was he denied tenure?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Yes, Carroll was denied tenure at the University of Chicago. He moved to CalTech without instigating an email campaign about how he'd been robbed or otherwise showing anything but some disappointment that the UoC thing didn't work out.
Posted by: "Rev Dr" Lenny Flank on May 14 2007,17:57
Quote (guthrie @ May 14 2007,16:59) | BEcause he needs beer I suppose. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
And brunettes.
Posted by: Robert O'Brien on May 14 2007,20:27
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ May 14 2007,17:50) |
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Was he denied tenure?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Yes, Carroll was denied tenure at the University of Chicago. He moved to CalTech without instigating an email campaign about how he'd been robbed or otherwise showing anything but some disappointment that the UoC thing didn't work out. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I'm not sure that Dr. Gonzalez has instigated such an e-mail campaign but I do not fault him if he has. People who are wronged should not roll over.
Posted by: Dr.GH on May 14 2007,21:41
A friend of mine was turned down for tenure when the department had no money for any promotions. But, they handled it by "alowing" him to withdraw from review. 2 years later with a better $$ picture, he was alowed to "resume" the process. He 1) had not raised a fuss, 2) had received other offers, and was given tenure.
When I was confronted with tenure- I quit. I could not stand the idea of staying in Georgia anymore. I could not stand dealing with medical students anymore. I was even tired of crazy sick people (by far the better part of the deal).
Posted by: Dr.GH on May 14 2007,21:44
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ May 14 2007,13:31) | If you haven't already done so, see < Ed's blog > for a good discussion of this, with some very apropos remarks about just how arbitrary the awarding or not rewarding of tenure often/usually is. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
What could Brayton ever know about tenure? He is not eligable, never considered, and never will be.
Gack gack ptuie. Heddle did have a sensible comment. I was rejected for tenure at one college the same year I cleared the same amount of grant $$ as my salary, received the board of trustee's "Commendation for Excellence" and was named "Teacher of the Year." I was told that a single tenured faculty member stopped the application by claiming I "was not very collegal." Translated that means I objected to his habit of giving good grades for blow-jobs.
Sure there is a personality aspect. Anybody here work in any large companies?
Posted by: deadman_932 on May 14 2007,21:58
---------------------QUOTE------------------- P.S. For those of an unfortunately foreign disposition (you have my pity for losing life's great lottery and not being born an Englishman) [snip, snip, blahbiddy blah]We are the best club in the UK and if all goes well this weekend, the best club in Europe.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Ahem. In Europe, yes, maybe.
Posted by: Chris Hyland on May 14 2007,23:20
---------------------QUOTE------------------- I was rejected for tenure at one college the same year I cleared the same amount of grant $$ as my salary ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Not only that but at this point we have no idea whether or not Gonzalez is bringing in the grants, which surely is more important than the number of papers he's published.
Posted by: Bob O'H on May 15 2007,00:04
---------------------QUOTE------------------- I was even tired of crazy sick people (by far the better part of the deal). ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
And yet, you continue to post here.
:-)
Bob
Posted by: Ichthyic on May 15 2007,00:11
---------------------QUOTE------------------- I am surrounded by people who have impressive publication records in mathematics and statistics, and they are my measuring stick. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
something tells me you constantly attempt to overcompensate for your rather tiny "measuring stick", bobbo.
---------------------QUOTE------------------- Thank you for demonstrating the lack of native intelligence of the opposition ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
opposition? LOL. when exactly are you going to go about actually defining a position for you to be in opposition to to begin with?
right.
troll.
Posted by: BWE on May 15 2007,00:37
Quote (Dr.GH @ May 14 2007,21:44) | Quote (Arden Chatfield @ May 14 2007,13:31) | If you haven't already done so, see < Ed's blog > for a good discussion of this, with some very apropos remarks about just how arbitrary the awarding or not rewarding of tenure often/usually is. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
What could Brayton ever know about tenure? He is not eligable, never considered, and never will be.
Gack gack ptuie. Heddle did have a sensible comment. I was rejected for tenure at one college the same year I cleared the same amount of grant $$ as my salary, received the board of trustee's "Commendation for Excellence" and was named "Teacher of the Year." I was told that a single tenured faculty member stopped the application by claiming I "was not very collegal." Translated that means I objected to his habit of giving good grades for blow-jobs.
Sure there is a personality aspect. Anybody here work in any large companies? ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I'd trade grades for blow jobs. Maybe that's part of the reason I was never tenured.
Hmmm. There may be more to it though.
Posted by: N.Wells on May 15 2007,00:49
Say that a research university grants tenure to a 30-year-old scientist. The university is likely to keep that person for another 35 years, which could amount to on the order of 2.5-5 million dollars in salary, fringe benefits, and work space prior to retirement. Actually, since no one can make you retire any more, you could conceivably add another 15 or so years on to that, adding another 40% to those costs.
A popular teacher at a state university who pulls in 300 students into a large lecture course once a semester will earn their department somewhere around $200,000 to $300,000 per year for that course, depending on how much the university pays the department per enrollee at that course level. Let's say $240,000 at $400 per student. In contrast, an unpopular teacher who can only draw 30 students per intro session is only going to earn the department $24,000 per year for two offerings of that course. Over 35 years that's going to be a difference in $7,560,000 in departmental income. So a tenure decision is not a minor one, and a department will have a long time to regret a mistake.
Moreover, whomever a department tenures, the department is probably going to be stuck with for the next 35 years. A single person can quite easily turn a department from being a great place to work to a miserable place. Someone who carries their share of committee work is to be desired, whereas someone whose trials and tribulations creates committee work just drags everyone down. A good professor pulls in good students and adds to the glory of the department, whereas a bad professor scares the good students away. People have different strengths in different areas, so one hopes to get a good mix of strengths in a department. People say tenure is like a marriage (worse, because it's probably more like a plural marriage), but at least in marriages you can get a divorce if things turn ugly.
Thus a lot weighs on a tenure decision besides 'did this person meet the minimum requirements?'
Among the factors taken into consideration in tenure decisions (besides the numbers of papers published) are $$$ obtained in external funding; where were articles and books published; how many times have the various publications been cited; how many coauthors were involved in publications and grants; what were the candidate's contributions in multi-author works and multiple-investigator grants; how many masters, doctoral, and post-doc students has the candidate mentored; what senior people in the field but outside your university think of the person's research; professional awards and service; and teaching evaluations by students and fellow faculty. Along with other stuff. Shortcomings in almost any of these things could potentially doom a tenure decision.
To enlarge on the importance of where things are published: the humanities in particular have few ways of assessing the significance of a work (citation records for humanities works tend to be problematic and not comparable), so they have made a finely honed art out of assessing the reputation of the publisher of your book. This can arise, albeit to a lesser degree, in science as well. I would guess that a Regnery Press book might well be held against a candidate at a college- or university-level committee: it's sort of sending up a flag that you don't want to be considered a serious scholar.
(My apologies for some repetition of points that others have already made.)
Posted by: slpage on May 15 2007,14:38
I admit, I was granted tenure and I have far fewer publications that Gonzalez (but many more than Wells and Dembski) and have never even received a major research grant (I have received a few small ones).
Then, I am not at a major research institution, do not claim to be or present myself as a major researcher, have not claimed (implicitly or explicitly) to have overturned a major scientific theory or to have provided material support for a fringe ideology. Nor have I ignored the course catalog description of a class and instead taught my preferred fringe ideology.
Tenure is no guarantee, even if you publish, even if you have grants. As others have pointed out, there is much more to it. While I was in grad school, one of the profs in my dept. was up for tenure. She had dozens of publications, had recently received a big NSF grant, taught several courses, etc., yet was denied tenure. I know a major researcher at Harvard that has never received tenure yet has been there for decades.
For the ID crowd to whine about this is to yet again display their intellectual limitations, their spoiled child attitude, and their condescending hubris.
Posted by: Lou FCD on May 15 2007,15:29
< Denialism Blog's post > on the subject.
Just thought I'd share.
Posted by: Robert O'Brien on May 15 2007,16:42
Quote (Ichthyic @ May 15 2007,00:11) | something tells me you constantly attempt to overcompensate for your rather tiny "measuring stick", bobbo. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Maybe I should demonstrate my manhood by teaming up with you and Peezee to pick on another high school student.
Posted by: Ichthyic on May 15 2007,17:06
ooh, nice try at deflection, but nobody's biting, bobbo.
bait's too small.
Posted by: MidnightVoice on May 16 2007,17:33
---------------------QUOTE------------------- P.S. For those of an unfortunately foreign disposition (you have my pity for losing life's great lottery and not being born an Englishman) [snip, snip, blahbiddy blah]We are the best club in the UK and if all goes well this weekend, the best club in Europe.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
---------------------QUOTE------------------- Ahem. In Europe, yes, maybe. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
And in the Southern Hemisphere it will be a South African Team :D
Back to tenure:
From the local paper
< http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps....0514050 >
Supporters of Gonzalez said they think the university denied him tenure, because he was promoting an unpopular idea on college campuses, the theory that some features of life are best explained as products of an intelligent cause, rather than natural selection or random mutation.
“I think if looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it likely is a duck,” said John West, a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute, a Seattle-based organization that supports discussing intelligent design in science classes.
“There are two issues here: academic freedom and the First Amendment. Gonzalez has gained attention for his advocacy of intelligent design as legitimate science in his book, "The Privileged Planet."
More than 400 faculty members at the three public universities have signed petitions since Gonzalez’s book was published that rejected attempts to represent intelligent design as science. None of the statements mention Gonzalez by name.
< http://desmoinesregister.com/apps....004 >
prof appeals denial of tenure
About 12 people have applied for tenure in the past 10 years in the physics and astronomy department, and four of those were denied, said Eli Rosenberg, the chairman of the ISU department of physics and astronomy.
John McCarroll, an ISU spokesman, said tenure is achieved through approval from the candidate's department, the department chairman, a committee within the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences, the dean of the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences, the executive vice president and provost, and the university president.
Gonzalez was denied a favorable vote on each of those levels, he said.
The decision on whether to award tenure is also based on the quality of the faculty member's work, the "impact in the community, how you are being received in the community," Rosenberg said.
Posted by: Henry J on May 16 2007,21:34
---------------------QUOTE------------------- “I think if looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it likely is a duck,” said John West, [...] ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Seems like DI people should avoid using lines like that, since it could so easily be used against the guy he's defending.
Henry
Posted by: Chris Hyland on May 16 2007,23:20
I've never laughed so hard at creationist dishonesty:
---------------------QUOTE------------------- Two of the five active tenured astronomy professors in the department that denied tenure to Guillermo Gonzalez at Iowa State University are connected to a widely-publicized statement that denounces intelligent design as "creationist pseudoscience."
...
Iowa State University has made much of the fact that Dr. Gonzalez's tenure application was rejected starting at the level of his department. Now we know that at least 40% of the tenured faculty in astronomy in his department are connected to a statement that regards intelligent design as "creationist pseudoscience" and insists that "it is scientifically inappropriate and pedagogically irresponsible" for it "to be introduced into… science curricula." ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
For anyone who doesnt know the statement actually reads:
---------------------QUOTE------------------- It is scientifically inappropriate and pedagogically irresponsible for creationist pseudoscience, including but not limited to "intelligent design," to be introduced into the science curricula of our nation's public schools. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
ie nothing to do with teaching at university whatsoever.
I did some investigation of my own and it turns out the project Steve statement also says:
---------------------QUOTE------------------- Evolution is ... a major ... inappropriate and pedagogically irresponsible ... curricula ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
So it turns out it's a pro-ID statement after all.
Posted by: Wesley R. Elsberry on May 17 2007,00:10
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
“There are two issues here: academic freedom and the First Amendment. Gonzalez has gained attention for his advocacy of intelligent design as legitimate science in his book, "The Privileged Planet."
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
A tenure committee should take note of someone advocating < a scam > as if it were legitimate science.
Posted by: Robert O'Brien on May 17 2007,01:08
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ May 17 2007,00:10) | A tenure committee should take note of someone advocating < a scam > as if it were legitimate science. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I do not think that criticism applies to Guillermo Gonzalez.
Posted by: Chris Hyland on May 17 2007,05:17
Haha it gets even better:
---------------------QUOTE------------------- Science Professor Expresses Astonishment at Iowa State's Denial of Tenure to Gonzalez ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Can you guess what science?
---------------------QUOTE------------------- Dr. Robert J. Marks, Distinguished Professor of Electrical and Computer Engineering at Baylor University ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
---------------------QUOTE------------------- I went to the Web of Science citation index which is the authority on citations. Only journal papers, not conference papers, are indexed. There are lots of Prof. Gonzalez's papers listed. My jaw dropped when I saw one of his papers has 153 citations and 139 on another. I have sat on oodles of tenure committees at both a large private university and a state research university, chaired the university tenure committee, and have seen more tenure cases than the Pope has Cardinals. This is a LOT of citations for an assistant professor up for tenure. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Right from now on whenever I see a post about this from a creationist I'm going to search for:
---------------------QUOTE------------------- $ ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
and if I don't find anything I'm not going to read it.
Posted by: Wesley R. Elsberry on May 17 2007,06:18
Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 17 2007,01:08) | Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ May 17 2007,00:10) | A tenure committee should take note of someone advocating < a scam > as if it were legitimate science. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I do not think that criticism applies to Guillermo Gonzalez. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
According to the DI, it does. Emphasis added:
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
“There are two issues here: academic freedom and the First Amendment. Gonzalez has gained attention for his advocacy of intelligent design as legitimate science in his book, "The Privileged Planet."
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Posted by: Dr.GH on May 17 2007,11:04
Faculty have a proper concern about the reputation of the school and the consequent effect this has on their students. I would be more likely to accept a student from schools without creationists teaching than schools where they do.
Posted by: Robert O'Brien on May 17 2007,13:25
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ May 17 2007,06:18) | According to the DI, it does. Emphasis added:
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
“There are two issues here: academic freedom and the First Amendment. Gonzalez has gained attention for his advocacy of intelligent design as legitimate science in his book, "The Privileged Planet."
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
You should know as well as anyone that there are two schools in the ID "big tent," one for "biological ID" and one for "cosmological ID." Guillermo Gonzalez is in the latter group, and as far as I know he has not specifically endorsed Of Pandas and People.
Posted by: Richardthughes on May 17 2007,13:32
Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 17 2007,13:25) | Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ May 17 2007,06:18) | According to the DI, it does. Emphasis added:
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
“There are two issues here: academic freedom and the First Amendment. Gonzalez has gained attention for his advocacy of intelligent design as legitimate science in his book, "The Privileged Planet."
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
You should know as well as anyone that there are two schools in the ID "big tent," one for "biological ID" and one for "cosmological ID." Guillermo Gonzalez is in the latter group, and as far as I know he has not specifically endorsed Of Pandas and People. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Two schools; one manifesto, BobTard.
Posted by: Robert O'Brien on May 17 2007,13:40
Quote (Richardthughes @ May 17 2007,13:32) | Two schools; one manifesto, BobTard. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I refuse to lump them all together, DickTard. Guillermo Gonzalez is several steps above the Apostle of Savior-King Moon, for example.
Posted by: Richardthughes on May 17 2007,13:48
Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 17 2007,13:40) | Quote (Richardthughes @ May 17 2007,13:32) | Two schools; one manifesto, BobTard. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I refuse to lump them all together, DickTard. Guillermo Gonzalez is several steps above the Apostle of Savior-King Moon, for example. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Gotcha. Despite the whole DI thing. Nothing like arbitrary Fundy dichotomies. But if he were a Moonie, he'd be bad, no doubt.
You're using less Latin these days.
Posted by: Robert O'Brien on May 17 2007,14:14
Quote (Richardthughes @ May 17 2007,13:48) | Nothing like arbitrary Fundy dichotomies. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
DickTard:
When you use "labels" indiscriminately they lose their force. If I'm a "fundy" then what's < this guy >
Posted by: blipey on May 17 2007,15:17
Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 17 2007,13:25) | Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ May 17 2007,06:18) | According to the DI, it does. Emphasis added:
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
“There are two issues here: academic freedom and the First Amendment. Gonzalez has gained attention for his advocacy of intelligent design as legitimate science in his book, "The Privileged Planet."
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
You should know as well as anyone that there are two schools in the ID "big tent," one for "biological ID" and one for "cosmological ID." Guillermo Gonzalez is in the latter group, and as far as I know he has not specifically endorsed Of Pandas and People. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I'm sorry, where was Of Pandas and People in Wes's quote? You're going to have to show me that evidence card, now Bob.
Posted by: Wesley R. Elsberry on May 17 2007,15:49
To be fair, the IDC-as-scam link is about the drafts of "Of Pandas and People".
However, the point that Gonzalez may not have explicitly endorsed OPAP doesn't affect the validity of my statement. OPAP is not the only evidence going that IDC is a sham. Also, some people involved in a Ponzi scheme may sincerely believe that they are engaged in legitimate multi-level marketing business practices; they would still be wrong.
Posted by: Richardthughes on May 17 2007,16:10
Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 17 2007,14:14) | Quote (Richardthughes @ May 17 2007,13:48) | Nothing like arbitrary Fundy dichotomies. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
DickTard:
When you use "labels" indiscriminately they lose their force. If I'm a "fundy" then what's < this guy > ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Your Dad?
Checked out your blog, BTW.
Latin down 70%, bitterness at Ed Brayton up 35%.
Posted by: silverspoon on May 17 2007,17:58
Of course Gonzalez could end all the speculations about why he was denied. ISU’s policies require them to inform him in writing the reasons for his denial.
The negative publicity he’s receiving from all the whining the DI is doing must outweigh any prospects of future employment in his book. Very strange, coming from such an intelligent fellow.
Posted by: JohnW on May 17 2007,18:04
Quote (silverspoon @ May 17 2007,17:58) | Of course Gonzalez could end all the speculations about why he was denied. ISU’s policies require them to inform him in writing the reasons for his denial.
The negative publicity he’s receiving from all the whining the DI is doing must outweigh any prospects of future employment in his book. Very strange, coming from such an intelligent fellow. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
The publicity is all but guaranteeing him a tenured position in the Department of Apologetics at some fundie bible college. Maybe he's taking advice from The Isaac Newton of Farty Noises.
Posted by: Lou FCD on May 17 2007,18:08
Quote (silverspoon @ May 17 2007,17:58) | Of course Gonzalez could end all the speculations about why he was denied. ISU’s policies require them to inform him in writing the reasons for his denial.
The negative publicity he’s receiving from all the whining the DI is doing must outweigh any prospects of future employment in his book. Very strange, coming from such an intelligent fellow. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Playing the martyr is much more conducive to filling the offering plate than doing actual research. Especially when you know ahead of time that there's no research to do.
Posted by: "Rev Dr" Lenny Flank on May 17 2007,19:03
Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 17 2007,13:25) | Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ May 17 2007,06:18) | According to the DI, it does. Emphasis added:
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
“There are two issues here: academic freedom and the First Amendment. Gonzalez has gained attention for his advocacy of intelligent design as legitimate science in his book, "The Privileged Planet."
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
You should know as well as anyone that there are two schools in the ID "big tent," one for "biological ID" and one for "cosmological ID." Guillermo Gonzalez is in the latter group, and as far as I know he has not specifically endorsed Of Pandas and People. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Hey Bobbie, in the phrase "cosmological ID", what, uh, does the "ID" stand for . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ?
Posted by: Wesley R. Elsberry on May 17 2007,23:03
Seems that FtK doesn't like the fact that a tenure committee could pay attention to whether a candidate is promoting a scam.
Posted by: Richardthughes on May 18 2007,10:15
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ May 17 2007,23:03) | Seems that FtK doesn't like the fact that a tenure committee could pay attention to whether a candidate is promoting a scam. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
She'd have 'teach the controversy' 2+3 =7 mathematicians in there, too.
Posted by: heddle on May 18 2007,10:20
JohnW,
---------------------QUOTE------------------- The publicity is all but guaranteeing him a tenured position in the Department of Apologetics at some fundie bible college. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Nope. Most fundie colleges (e.g., BJU, Liberty), require an affirmation of the YEC view. Gonzalez would not qualify.
Posted by: J-Dog on May 18 2007,10:46
Quote (heddle @ May 18 2007,10:20) | JohnW,
---------------------QUOTE------------------- The publicity is all but guaranteeing him a tenured position in the Department of Apologetics at some fundie bible college. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Nope. Most fundie colleges (e.g., BJU, Liberty), require an affirmation of the YEC view. Gonzalez would not qualify. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Unless you're William Dembski...
< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Dembski#Recent_developments >
Maybe there is room under the big tent for a dis-credited ID Martyr after all at a Liberty, or a Patriot U.
Posted by: stevestory on May 18 2007,13:07
Quote (J-Dog @ May 18 2007,11:46) | Unless you're William Dembski...
< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Dembski#Recent_developments > ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
That 'recent developments' section begins thusly:
---------------------QUOTE------------------- Recent developments
In December 2001, Dembski launched the International Society for Complexity, Information and Design (ISCID), of which he is Executive Director. Dembski is also the editor-in-chief of ISCID's journal, Progress in Complexity, Information, and Design (PCID). ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Given that PCID, the premiere ID journal, hasn't published an issue in over a year and a half, maybe they should rename it No Progress in Complexity, Information, and Design.
If you wanted to be sober and do a little digging, you could probably find a couple of amusing things:
1 Past statements decrying the very concept of tenure, by IDers who now wail and gnash their teeth that Gonzales isn't receiving it. 2 Search through The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, From Fraud to Foolishness, and like books, and find a dozen basic ways in which ID fails as a scientific revolution and instead resembles various other scams such as free energy and dianetics. Just offhand I can think of a) no operational definitions for CSI b) confirmation bias, c) no progress solving outstanding problems d) deliberately confusing jargon e) allegations of conspiracy f) misuse of legitimate science such as the SLOT....
Somebody else can continue. It's been a long week. I'm going to watch the NBA playoffs and get smashed.
Posted by: J-Dog on May 18 2007,14:07
Quote (stevestory @ May 18 2007,13:07) | Somebody else can continue. It's been a long week. I'm going to watch the NBA playoffs and get smashed. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Steve - More fuel for the DI Conspiracy hopper...
The NBA also has a clear bias against Gonzalez, as he is denied the opportunity to sit courtside and root for the Iowa NBA team...
When will the hating ever stop?
Posted by: oldmanintheskydidntdoit on May 18 2007,14:20
---------------------QUOTE------------------- And you wonder why the public doesn’t buy this story. The public evidently has enough horse sense to know a pile of manure when they smell one. The Darwinian narrative is already lost. The only thing propping it up is the establishment clause and that’s being remedied as we speak. You see that just takes a little longer because we have for SCOTUS justices to retire or die before we can replace them. The easy part was taking over congress, the executive branch, school boards, etc. If it wasn’t for tenure there’d be even more reorganization going on.
You can’t fight city hall.
Write that down. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
< DS > Thats cheesy poof meister no.1. What planet is Davescot talking about again, where all these things happened? I don't remeber any of that, LOL.
And Dembski? bitter:
---------------------QUOTE------------------- Unlike Forrest and Miller, who have nice cushy jobs with tenure, at the time I came on as an expert witness for Thomas More, I was in the process of losing my job with Baylor. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Aww. Better keep those < $100,000 > paydays coming. Oh, and there's the classic
---------------------QUOTE------------------- If I ever became the president of a university (per impossibile), I would dissolve the biology department and divide the faculty with tenure that I couldn’t get rid of into two new departments: those who know engineering and how it applies to biological systems would be assigned to the new “Department of Biological Engineering”; the rest, and that includes the evolutionists, would be consigned to the new “Department of Nature Appreciation” (didn’t Darwin think of himself as a naturalist?). ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
of course. All the fuss they are making now, yet it was only on the 10 January 2007 that Dembski < said > that. I linked to the google cache of that particular page, for reasons that i'm sure by now are obvious.
So, the head"things" of ID despise tenure, much like Dembski despises what Dawkins stands for. hahahahaha
---------------------QUOTE------------------- Oldman, you get AtBC Member of the Month. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Marvellous! :D
Posted by: Richardthughes on May 18 2007,14:36
Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ May 18 2007,14:20) |
---------------------QUOTE------------------- And you wonder why the public doesn’t buy this story. The public evidently has enough horse sense to know a pile of manure when they smell one. The Darwinian narrative is already lost. The only thing propping it up is the establishment clause and that’s being remedied as we speak. You see that just takes a little longer because we have for SCOTUS justices to retire or die before we can replace them. The easy part was taking over congress, the executive branch, school boards, etc. If it wasn’t for tenure there’d be even more reorganization going on.
You can’t fight city hall.
Write that down. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
< DS > Thats cheesy poof meister no.1. What planet is Davescot talking about again, where all these things happened? I don't remeber any of that, LOL.
And Dembski? bitter:
---------------------QUOTE------------------- Unlike Forrest and Miller, who have nice cushy jobs with tenure, at the time I came on as an expert witness for Thomas More, I was in the process of losing my job with Baylor. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Aww. Better keep those < $100,000 > paydays coming. Oh, and there's the classic
---------------------QUOTE------------------- If I ever became the president of a university (per impossibile), I would dissolve the biology department and divide the faculty with tenure that I couldn’t get rid of into two new departments: those who know engineering and how it applies to biological systems would be assigned to the new “Department of Biological Engineering”; the rest, and that includes the evolutionists, would be consigned to the new “Department of Nature Appreciation” (didn’t Darwin think of himself as a naturalist?). ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
of course. All the fuss they are making now, yet it was only on the 10 January 2007 that Dembski < said > that. I linked to the google cache of that particular page, for reasons that i'm sure by now are obvious.
So, the head"things" of ID despise tenure, much like Dembski despises what Dawkins stands for. hahahahaha
---------------------QUOTE------------------- Oldman, you get AtBC Member of the Month. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Marvellous! :D ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
and possibly next month as well for this post.
Why not forward it to PZ Myers? He runs with our best stuff. Be sure to link to AtBC
Posted by: Louis on May 18 2007,14:57
Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ May 18 2007,21:20) |
---------------------QUOTE------------------- Oldman, you get AtBC Member of the Month. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Marvellous! :D ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
It's a swizz! I make my 1000th post, prove god exists and Oldman gets member of the month? I'm writing to my MP.
;-)
Louis
Posted by: stevestory on May 18 2007,15:05
Quote (J-Dog @ May 18 2007,15:07) | Quote (stevestory @ May 18 2007,13:07) | Somebody else can continue. It's been a long week. I'm going to watch the NBA playoffs and get smashed. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Steve - More fuel for the DI Conspiracy hopper...
The NBA also has a clear bias against Gonzalez, as he is denied the opportunity to sit courtside and root for the Iowa NBA team...
When will the hating ever stop? ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Obviously, I mean, why'd you even bother to point it out? It's also pretty clear that the suspension of Robert Horry for two games is an unwritten Darwinist threat to Gonzales. H is, of course, the letter that comes after G--just as Horry was suspended after Gonzales was denied tenure. Also, there are two G's in his name--Horry was suspended for two games. And what was the Darwinist excuse for the suspension? That Horry knocked Steve Nash "outside the box". I thought we wanted people going "outside the box"?!?!?!?!?!?!
These Darwinists are beyond belief.
PS--Guillermo Gonzales. Galileo Galilei. Notice anything!?!?!?!?!?!?!oneoneoneone
Posted by: stevestory on May 18 2007,15:11
Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ May 18 2007,15:20) |
---------------------QUOTE------------------- The easy part was taking over congress, ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
He's talking about the Democrats, I presume?
Posted by: oldmanintheskydidntdoit on May 18 2007,18:00
Quote (Richardthughes @ May 18 2007,14:36) | Why not forward it to PZ Myers? He runs with our best stuff. Be sure to link to AtBC ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
< http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/05/the_id_tenure_plan.php >
I did, he did. Fantastic.
Posted by: Richardthughes on May 18 2007,18:05
I TAKE ALL CREDIT.
HOMOS.
Posted by: Ichthyic on May 18 2007,18:11
---------------------QUOTE------------------- PS--Guillermo Gonzales. Galileo Galilei. Notice anything!?!?!?!?!?!?!oneoneoneone ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
G spot?
Posted by: oldmanintheskydidntdoit on May 18 2007,18:15
Quote (Richardthughes @ May 18 2007,18:05) | I TAKE ALL CREDIT.
HOMOS. :angry: ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I bow to your superior kung fu skills Richardthughes!! < >
Posted by: Richardthughes on May 18 2007,18:21
Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ May 18 2007,18:15) | Quote (Richardthughes @ May 18 2007,18:05) | I TAKE ALL CREDIT.
HOMOS. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I bow to your superior kung fu skills Richardthughes!! < > ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
TWO WRITE. MY SIGNATURE IS NOT BIG ENOUGH FOR ALL MY PLAUDITS.
HOMOS.
Ps - Congrats!
Posted by: Robert O'Brien on May 18 2007,19:14
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ May 17 2007,15:49) | To be fair, the IDC-as-scam link is about the drafts of "Of Pandas and People".
However, the point that Gonzalez may not have explicitly endorsed OPAP doesn't affect the validity of my statement. OPAP is not the only evidence going that IDC is a sham. Also, some people involved in a Ponzi scheme may sincerely believe that they are engaged in legitimate multi-level marketing business practices; they would still be wrong. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
There is nothing wrong with the sort of ID Guillermo Gonzalez writes about. The flagellum may have been unspun but the Anthropic Principle and teleology have not.
Posted by: Robert O'Brien on May 18 2007,19:24
< Iowa State denies tenure to an intelligent design advocate with impeccable credentials >
(via < Telic Thoughts >)
Posted by: Richardthughes on May 18 2007,19:25
Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 18 2007,19:24) | < Iowa State denies tenure to an intelligent design advocate with impeccable credentials >
(via < Telic Thoughts >) ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
"Weekly News | Christian Views"
Thanks, BobTard!
Posted by: Ichthyic on May 18 2007,20:51
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
There is nothing wrong with the sort of ID Guillermo Gonzalez writes about. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
but of course you wouldn't prefer to defend that statement, would ya now, bobbo?
Posted by: blipey on May 18 2007,23:22
Quote (Ichthyic @ May 18 2007,20:51) |
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
There is nothing wrong with the sort of ID Guillermo Gonzalez writes about. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
but of course you wouldn't prefer to defend that statement, would ya now, bobbo? ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I give him a ranking of 5 for speaker points.
Posted by: "Rev Dr" Lenny Flank on May 18 2007,23:33
Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 18 2007,19:14) | There is nothing wrong with the sort of ID Guillermo Gonzalez writes about. The flagellum may have been unspun but the Anthropic Principle and teleology have not. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
In case you haven't noticed, Bobbie, ID is illegal to teach.
Indeed, ANYTHING that invokes a supernatural creator or designer an an explanatory mechanism, is illegal to teach.
Game over.
Posted by: Robert O'Brien on May 19 2007,21:04
Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ May 18 2007,23:33) | In case you haven't noticed, Bobbie, ID is illegal to teach.
Indeed, ANYTHING that invokes a supernatural creator or designer an an explanatory mechanism, is illegal to teach.
Game over. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Lenny, I realize you are limited to a certain set of cognitions, but I did not write anything about teaching ID.
Posted by: Richardthughes on May 19 2007,21:20
BobTard, why not start up a thread about your blog? It'd get more views and comments than your blog does - presumably you want your ramblings looked at?
Posted by: Robert O'Brien on May 19 2007,23:07
Quote (Richardthughes @ May 19 2007,21:20) | BobTard, why not start up a thread about your blog? It'd get more views and comments than your blog does - presumably you want your ramblings looked at? ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
That seems a little narcissistic.
Posted by: Richardthughes on May 19 2007,23:40
Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 19 2007,23:07) | Quote (Richardthughes @ May 19 2007,21:20) | BobTard, why not start up a thread about your blog? It'd get more views and comments than your blog does - presumably you want your ramblings looked at? ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
That seems a little narcissistic. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
No more than blogging...
You can "teach the controversy", teach us Latin...
Posted by: "Rev Dr" Lenny Flank on May 20 2007,00:07
Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 19 2007,21:04) | Lenny, I realize you are limited to a certain set of cognitions, but I did not write anything about teaching ID. ---------------------QUOTE-------------------
It's "Rev Dr" Lenny to you, Bobbie.
And of course you don't actually write about ANYTHING. (shrug)
Posted by: stevestory on May 20 2007,04:37
Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 20 2007,00:07) | |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|