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  Topic: The Finest in Geocentric Models and Analysis, by Ghost of Paley< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Ved



Posts: 398
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 07 2006,15:34   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ June 06 2006,08:31)
why do you think the claymation "moon dust" has any more basis in reality?

Well Ghost, it's just that I've never seen dust modeled with clay, in stop motion (that's how they do claymation, right?) Not to mention in 3D.

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ June 07 2006,21:05)
How about the mirrors placed on the moon for distance measurements?

That's one, simple, hard to ignore piece of evidence right there. Lasers don't bounce off of just anything. How is it possible to receive a return signal from the Sea of Tranquility?

I wish I had access to a total station again. Is a modern surveying total station strong enough to get a signal back from the moon?

  
ericmurphy



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(Permalink) Posted: June 07 2006,15:40   

I thought Bill's "harmonics" sounded familiar, and sure enough, a quick look through the Scientific American archive pulled up an article from the Aug. 2005 issue by Glenn D. Starkman and Dominick J. Schwartz on harmonics in the cosmic microwave background, which likely map to redshift (since they probably have a common cause). As I suspected, observation does present some serious challenges to the inflationary lambda CDM model, but it doesn't even begin to refute the idea of an expanding universe, nor does it provide any support for Bill's crystalline sphere toy universe.

It looks to me, Bill, like you're misinterpreting the meaning of these harmonics. Harmonics are predicted by the ILCDM model, but the observed power distributions of the harmonics are not. This is definitely a problem for the model, and for inflation more generally, but it most certainly is not a problem for cosmic expansion (which, as I said earlier, is one of two possibilities, the other being a collapse).

Further, there is some evidence that the observed harmonic discrepancies from what ILCDM predicts may be due to observational error, e.g., contamination from the milky way galaxy itself or from debris in the solar system.

In any event, these difficulties are difficulties with inflation, not with an expanding universe. And they certainly don't help Bill's model of a universe (what was it, now?) 9 ly in diameter. Again, this is, as Bill points out, "cutting edge" research, and a lot more work needs to be done before any firm conclusions can be drawn. If Bill wants to hang his entire model on these discrepancies, he'd best be prepared for disappointment.

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
Ved



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(Permalink) Posted: June 07 2006,16:05   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 07 2006,21:07)
Well, I hope at least some of the people here know who that quote is from!

"I am intrigued by your theory of a donut shaped universe, Homer. I might have to steal it."

Stephen Hawking


"How many gazebos do you she-males need?"

Clancey Wiggum


Classic!

  
The Ghost of Paley



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(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2006,11:45   

eric:
Quote
As I suspected, observation does present some serious challenges to the inflationary lambda CDM model, but it doesn't even begin to refute the idea of an expanding universe, nor does it provide any support for Bill's crystalline sphere toy universe.

It looks to me, Bill, like you're misinterpreting the meaning of these harmonics. Harmonics are predicted by the ILCDM model, but the observed power distributions of the harmonics are not. This is definitely a problem for the model, and for inflation more generally, but it most certainly is not a problem for cosmic expansion (which, as I said earlier, is one of two possibilities, the other being a collapse).

Which, as we'll see, is a very damaging admission.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
ericmurphy



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(Permalink) Posted: June 10 2006,21:12   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ June 10 2006,16:45)
 
Quote
This is definitely a problem for the model, and for inflation more generally, but it most certainly is not a problem for cosmic expansion (which, as I said earlier, is one of two possibilities, the other being a collapse).

Which, as we'll see, is a very damaging admission.

Really, Bill? Are you under the impression that if inflation turns out not to be a correct accounting for observation, your geocentric model somehow turns out to be correct?

(I guess I should make sure you understand the difference between "inflation" and "expansion." Do you?)

How does your geocentric model avoid the problem of instability if it is neither expanding nor contracting? Which, I should point out, is the least of your model's problems. Or will be, once you enlighten us as to exactly what your model is.

--------------
2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
The Ghost of Paley



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(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2006,07:53   

Eric:
         
Quote
         
Quote
         
Quote
This is definitely a problem for the model, and for inflation more generally, but it most certainly is not a problem for cosmic expansion (which, as I said earlier, is one of two possibilities, the other being a collapse).



Which, as we'll see, is a very damaging admission.


Really, Bill?

Yes. Recall that inflation theory accounts for disturbing observations that threaten the entire Big Clang superstructure, including:

1) The Horizon Problem:
       
Quote
The uniformity of cosmic background radiation--varying by no more than one part in 10,000, where ever you look--posed a problem to Standard Big Bang cosmology. Suppose the universe began 14 billion years ago. We look to the west, we detect cosmic background radiation. We turn our radio antennas to the east, we detect cosmic background radiation--at exactly the same temperature. The radiation from the east and the radiation from the west are separated by 28 billion light years. Common sense tells us that the radiation from the east could not possibly be causally connected to that from the west, because information cannot travel faster than the speed of light. Nor could the regions they traveled from ever have been in communication.


2) The Flatness Problem:
       
Quote
Our universe is apparently flat. That is, it appears to have just the "right" density--or nearly so--to continue its slow expansion forever. Too much matter, and the universe eventually collapses in on itself under the influence of its own gravitational pull. This scenario, essentially the Big Bang in reverse, has been called the "Big Crunch". Too little matter, and gravity will never be able to halt the expansion of the universe. The universe eventually be populated only by gas, dust and the relics of stars, growing increasingly cold with its infinite expansion. This bleak scenario is called the Big Chill.

An intermediate scenario happens if the average density of our universe is equal to the critical density--the average density of matter needed to arrest the expansion of the universe without bringing about a Big Crunch. Cosmologists express this relationship as the ratio of the average density to the critical density: Omega. Measurements of Omega today range from 0.1 to 1. Most scientists believe that the universe is not headed for a Big Crunch.

Both the average density of the universe and the critical density change with time. When the universe was very young, and very dense, these numbers changed very rapidly. If the average density of the universe were even slightly greater or smaller than the critical density in the instant following the Big Bang, Omega would have zoomed to infinity (a quick Big Chill) or crashed to zero (the Big Crunch). The fact that we are still around, approximately 15 billion years later, is evidence that the critical density must have been extremely close--equal within 1 part in 10^15--to one after the Big Bang.


Inflation Flattens the Universe



To make the Standard Big Bang theory correspond to reality, cosmologists had to make the assumption that the average density of the universe was equal to the density immediately following the Big Bang. But how? This assumption, like the isotropy assumption, isn't explained. Since an Omega of one corresponds to a flat universe, this is known as "The Flatness Problem."


3) The Lack of Magnetic Monopoles:
     
Quote
In the early 1970s, the successes of quantum field theory and gauge theory in the development of electroweak and the strong nuclear force led many theorists to move on to attempt to combine them in a single theory known as a grand unified theory, or GUT. Several GUTs were proposed, most of which had the curious feature of suggesting the presence of a real magnetic monopole particle. More accurately, GUTs predicted a range of particles known as dyons, of which the most basic state is a monopole. The charge on magnetic monopoles predicted by GUTs is either 1 or 2gD, depending on the theory.

The majority of particles appearing in any quantum field theory are unstable, and decay into other particles in a variety of reactions that have to conserve various values. Stable particles are stable because there are no lighter particles to decay into that still conserve these values. For instance, the electron has a lepton number of 1 and an electric charge of 1, and there are no lighter particles that conserve these values. On the other hand, the muon, essentially a heavy electron, can decay into the electron and is therefore not stable.

The dyons in these same theories are also stable, but for an entirely different reason. The dyons are expected to exist as a side effect of the "freezing out" of the conditions of the early universe, or symmetry breaking. In this model the dyons arise due to the vacuum configuration in a particular area of the universe, according to the original Dirac theory. They remain stable not because of a conservation condition, but because there is no simpler topological state for them to decay to.

The length scale over which this special vacuum configuration exists is called the correlation length of the system. A correlation length cannot be larger than causality would allow, therefore the correlation length for making magnetic monopoles must be at least as big as the horizon size determined by the metric of the expanding universe. According to that logic, there should be at least one magnetic monopole per horizon volume as it was when the symmetry breaking took place.

This leads to a direct prediction of the amount of monopoles in the universe today, which is about 1011 times the critical density of our universe. The universe appears to be close to critical density, so monopoles should be fairly common.
[...]
Non-inflationary Big Bang cosmology suggests that monopoles should be plentiful, and the failure to find magnetic monopoles is one of the main problems that led to the creation of cosmic inflation theory.


As a response, Alan Guth created the Inflation Model. This model purported to explain these obsevations, by positing:
     
Quote
that the nascent universe passed through a phase of exponential expansion (the inflationary epoch) that was driven by a negative pressure vacuum energy density.

This expansion is similar to a de Sitter universe with positive cosmological constant. As a direct consequence of this expansion, all of the observable universe originated in a small causally-connected region. Quantum fluctuations in this microscopic region, magnified to cosmic size, then became the seeds for the growth of structure in the universe (see galaxy formation and evolution). The particle responsible for inflation is generally called the inflaton.
[...]
The original model of inflation,[1] proposed by Alan Guth, had the universe in a false vacuum. The universe was in an exactly de Sitter phase. In this model, regions of non-inflating universe are created through the nucleation of bubbles of true vacuum, while the rest of the universe continues inflating. When two such bubbles collide, the vast energy of the bubble walls is converted into the particles seen at the early universe. This process is called reheating. Alan Guth has described the inflationary universe as the ultimate "free lunch": new universes, similar to our own, are continuously produced in a vast inflating background. Gravitational interactions, in this case, circumvent (but do not violate) both the first law of thermodynamics or energy conservation and the second law of thermodynamics or the arrow of time problem.

However, the original model of Guth fails because, in order to guarantee a sufficient amount of inflation to solve the standard problems, the bubble nucleation rate must be too low for bubble walls to collide and for the reheating process to actually work, because the space between bubbles - which is still in the inflating phase - expands so fast that the separation between bubbles grows faster than the bubbles themselves. The energy that is released in the decay of the false vacuum is deposited entirely in the kinetic energy of the bubble walls, and none is liberated by the collision needed for the hot big bang. This is called the "graceful exit problem" and Guth's original model is now called "old inflation." Andrei Linde[2] and, independently, Andreas Albrecht and Paul Steinhardt[3] proposed a "new inflation" or "slow-roll inflation" in which the inflaton is modelled by a scalar field slowly rolling down a nearly flat potential. In this model, the expansion of the universe is only approximately de Sitter, and the Hubble parameter is actually decreasing: the expansion is slowing. While the spectrum of fluctuations generated in the false vacuum de Sitter universe of old inflation is exactly scale-invariant, new inflation produces only a nearly scale invariant spectrum.[4] This means that information about the potential during inflation can be extracted, in principle, from the cosmic microwave background by measuring the spectral index. In "slow-roll inflation", inflation terminates when the inflaton potential reaches the end of its nearly-flat part, where its slope starts to increase and the roll speeds up. This is when reheating occurs in this scenario, as particles are created via ineractions with the inflaton, on the expense of the potential's energy density.

New inflation is generally eternal: that is, the process continues eternally. Although the scalar field is classically rolling down the potential, quantum fluctuations occasionally bring it back up the potential. These regions expand much faster than regions in which the inflaton has a lower potential energy. Thus, while inflation ends in some regions, the regions in which it continues are growing exponentially, and thus continue to dominate. This steady state, which was first described by Andrei Linde,[5] in which inflation ends in some regions while quantum mechanical fluctuations keep it going in the majority of the universe, is called "eternal inflation". It is widely believed that eternal inflation, however, cannot be eternal in the past (although Andrei Linde disputes this) and so does not solve the problem of initial conditions for the universe.[6]

Additional observations, such as COBE and WMAP satellite measurements, seemed to support the theory. You can get anything you want in Alan Guth's restaurant!

Unfortunately, recent observations question the model, and ditching the model reopens many old wounds. One simply can't discard inflation and maintain an atheistic POV. More later.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
stephenWells



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(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2006,08:09   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ June 12 2006,12:53)
One simply can't discard inflation and maintain an atheistic POV.

A) What does atheism have to do with any of this?

B) You still haven't posted any geocentric model. Account for the motion of the Sun, Moon, and planets. Also account for the motion of artificial satellites, and the operation of the GPS system.

  
ericmurphy



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(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2006,08:22   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ June 12 2006,12:53)
Unfortunately, recent observations question the model, and ditching the model reopens many old wounds. One simply can't discard inflation and maintain an atheistic POV. More later.

Bill, you still haven't explained how ditching inflation requires one to ditch expansion (or contraction, the other possibility). You still haven't explained how ditching inflation helps your model (if you even have a model. You do have a model, don't you?) One way or another, your model has to either expand or contract (or possibly both at different times), or it fails.

And the fact is, Bill, that inflation hasn't even begun to be ruled out of the game yet. Current observations, which haven't even been established as valid yet, call current theory into question, but they certainly haven't ruled it out on evidentiary grounds.

Meanwhile, a geocentric universe has, in fact, been ruled out by observation. But we're all keen to see you show us how it hasn't been ruled out.

More later.

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
ericmurphy



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(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2006,08:39   

Here's the "more later" part.

As you pointed out, Bill, cosmic inflation does account for many otherwise puzzling observations. This is why the entire astrophysics, cosmology, and particle physics communities are persuaded that inflation is accurate. It's also why these same people believe that the harmonics problem will eventually be resolved in a way that does not rule out inflation.

On the other hand, Bill, your model (to the extent it exists) does not appear to account for any of these puzzling observations. E.g., does your model account for the existence of the CMB, to say nothing of its isotropy (and deviations from perfect isotropy), its temperature, or its incredible adherence to the spectrum of an ideal black body?

I suspect an attempt to provide answers to these questions will result in page after page of Mathematica .jpgs, so before we get there, can we at least get you to draw us a picture of what your toy universe looks like? After all, it's hard to critique a model when you don't even know what the model looks like.

Also, I have to say that your arguments in favor of your geocentric model very closely resemble the arguments in favor of ID and creationism. I.e., rather than provide arguments in support of your own model, you spend all of your time trying to find holes in the evidence supporting the other model. As if proving that A is wrong somehow demonstrates that B is right….

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
ericmurphy



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(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2006,08:47   

And—to quote my personal favorite greedy capitalist—"one more thing."

As Stephen pointed out, atheism neither requires inflation nor expansion, nor would it be ruled out by ruling out either one. Atheism works just as well in a static universe (in fact, it works better in a static universe) as it does in an expanding or collapsing universe.

I'm personally not an atheist, Bill. I think, given what we know about the universe, that it's approximately as likely that there is a god as that there isn't one. I remain persuaded, however, that the God described in the Bible is about as likely to resemble an actual creator god as I am to be able to come up with a grand unified theory of everything in my head between now and sunset tonight.

The existence of a creator god seems to be neither supported nor refuted by what we know about the cosmos. But the God of the Bible is pretty much ruled out by observation.

Now…about that model, Bill?

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
The Ghost of Paley



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(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2006,10:29   

Eric:
     
Quote
I suspect an attempt to provide answers to these questions will result in page after page of Mathematica .jpgs, so before we get there, can we at least get you to draw us a picture of what your toy universe looks like? After all, it's hard to critique a model when you don't even know what the model looks like.

Also, I have to say that your arguments in favor of your geocentric model very closely resemble the arguments in favor of ID and creationism. I.e., rather than provide arguments in support of your own model, you spend all of your time trying to find holes in the evidence supporting the other model. As if proving that A is wrong somehow demonstrates that B is right….

No, but showing the holes in A reveals the necessity for something else, for which I propose B. Obviously, my model should also account for the previous hypothesis's successes, but this just brings us back to the starting point that everyone's bitching about. So I'll try to describe my geocentric theory qua toy universe. Just don't expect a lot of math right away.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



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(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2006,11:02   

[quote=The Ghost of Paley,June 12 2006,15:29][/quote]
Eric:
       
Quote
As if proving that A is wrong somehow demonstrates that B is right….

GOP:
       
Quote
No, but showing the holes in A reveals the necessity for something else, for which I propose B.


No, it all depends on the nature of the "hole", and B appears to be all hole and no donut.  In all of the history of science, NO theory was discarded until another alternate was developed in considerable detail.  And it turns out that no generally accepted theory (that I know of) in the past 200 years has been completely discarded.  Classical physics is still "true".

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"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

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cogzoid



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(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2006,11:46   

Quote
So I'll try to describe my geocentric theory qua toy universe. Just don't expect a lot of math right away.
Fantastic!  We can save the math for later, don't worry.  My guess is that we won't get that far.

  
The Ghost of Paley



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(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2006,12:09   

Cogzoid:
Quote
Fantastic!  We can save the math for later, don't worry.  My guess is that we won't get that far.

I'm holding you to this statement. OK......I'll see what I can put up tonight, but the bulk might have to wait for Wednesday (since you want the last part first, I'll have to put a few things together).

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
ericmurphy



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(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2006,12:20   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ June 12 2006,15:29)
No, but showing the holes in A reveals the necessity for something else, for which I propose B. Obviously, my model should also account for the previous hypothesis's successes, but this just brings us back to the starting point that everyone's bitching about. So I'll try to describe my geocentric theory qua toy universe. Just don't expect a lot of math right away.

Yes, but as others have pointed out, Bill, B has already been ruled out by observation.  Inflation is a long, long way from being ruled out. Given that the theory is barely 25 years old, it's to be expected that there will be a few wrinkles that remain to be ironed out. Given that a geocentric view of the universe is as old as humanity (or at least as long as humans have given the notion any thought), one would have expected all the wrinkles to have been ironed out long since.

Instead, it turns out that geocentric models of the cosmos are nothing but wrinkles.

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
Faid



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(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,03:16   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ June 12 2006,17:09)
(since you want the last part first, I'll have to put a few things together).

Ghost, what you describe as "last part first" is actually the proper way to do it.
You seem an educated man, you should know that as well as I do.

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A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

  
The Ghost of Paley



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(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,05:42   

Faid:
 
Quote
Ghost, what you describe as "last part first" is actually the proper way to do it.

Not always. But in any case, I'm playing by "your" rules now, so you should be happy. I also realise that everyone was set up to attack one presentation, and was unprepared for my actual argument, and is therefore trying to force me into more hospitable territory. But I'm OK with it.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
ericmurphy



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(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,05:53   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ June 13 2006,10:42)
Faid:
         
Quote
Ghost, what you describe as "last part first" is actually the proper way to do it.

Not always. But in any case, I'm playing by "your" rules now, so you should be happy. I also realise that everyone was set up to attack one presentation, and was unprepared for my actual argument, and is therefore trying to force me into more hospitable territory. But I'm OK with it.

Well, what we were really hoping for was an actual model to criticize. So far the only thing we've really had to look at was some math with no obvious connection to the real world (was there an "argument" in there somewhere?). Unless there's some arithmetical error in your Mathematica work (how likely is that?), there hasn't really been anything to "attack" yet. Six pages into this thread.

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
The Ghost of Paley



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(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,08:02   

Hey guys, could you please confine your heliocentric nagging to this thread? I'd like the other threads to remain on topic. And yes, I'm working on my model.....

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Stephen Elliott



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(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,08:58   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ June 13 2006,13:02)
Hey guys, could you please confine your heliocentric nagging to this thread? I'd like the other threads to remain on topic. And yes, I'm working on my model.....

Would it not have been a good idea to have a model before starting this thread?

  
cogzoid



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(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,09:42   

Quote
Not always. But in any case, I'm playing by "your" rules now, so you should be happy. I also realise that everyone was set up to attack one presentation, and was unprepared for my actual argument, and is therefore trying to force me into more hospitable territory. But I'm OK with it.
Don't flatter yourself.  We are quite prepared for your argument.  You seem to be the one that is unprepared to supply it.  In fact, you'll notice how there have already been many counter-arguments on this thread in preparation of yours.  Will it ever come?  I'm not holding my breath.  We're not trying to force you into hospitable territory, we're trying to coax you into ANY territory.  Draw a cartoon or something!

  
ericmurphy



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(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,10:31   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ June 13 2006,13:02)
Hey guys, could you please confine your heliocentric nagging to this thread? I'd like the other threads to remain on topic. And yes, I'm working on my model.....

To honor Bill's request, I'm cross-posting this from the "Paley Goes to the Movies" thread:
   
Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ June 13 2006,12:50)
       
Quote
By the way, I know I'm getting ahead of you, but how exactly does your model even account for the existence of the CMB? Isn't your toy universe static?

Well, it accounts for it, but I'm trying to think about how to present it without bringing up too much math. Let me work on my orbits and crystal spheres and stuff for now, and then I'll whip up on inflation.

Well, in the standard model, it's not too difficult to present. It's the "surface of last scattering," i.e., the radiation released when the universe cooled enough for electrons to become bound in stable orbits around nuclei, allowing the mean free path of photons to be more than a couple of microns.

Not too hard to explain, and makes for a nice visual image, easily apprehended. Now, how hard is it going to be to explain in your model? If we're going to replace the new with the old, we want something in exchange, like an easier picture, perhaps?

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
ericmurphy



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(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,12:33   

Quote (ericmurphy @ June 13 2006,15:31)
Well, in the standard model, it's not too difficult to present. It's the "surface of last scattering," i.e., the radiation released when the universe cooled enough for electrons to become bound in stable orbits around nuclei, allowing the mean free path of photons to be more than a couple of microns.

Not too hard to explain, and makes for a nice visual image, easily apprehended.

And note, Bill. No math required. Not a single equation. But everyone with the foggiest notion of electromagnetism and particle interactions can understand the model, and even picture it in his or her head. Why is it so difficult for your model to be understood in the same terms?

Paging Mr. Occam! Is there a Mr. Occam in the house? We may be in need of your razor soon…

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
Ved



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(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,12:42   

Quote
Draw a cartoon or something!

Or tell us more about the close-by part of the universe. We haven't sent probes to other planets (for some reason), we haven't been to the moon (for some reason), have we put up satellites? Is our moon a satellite?

  
ericmurphy



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(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,12:53   

By the way, Bill: those photographs of Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, etc., are "observations," which you're not allowed to dispute (i.e., they're not "artists' conceptions," "computer drawings," etc.). So I think as far as your model is concerned, claims that those photos weren't taken by interplanetary probes aren't allowed either.

So I guess you're stuck with the fact that there have been, in fact, interplanetary unmanned voyages to various planets. Otherwise, this whole thread will rapidly degenerate into farce. Feel free to dispute the moon landings, mars exploration, etc.—just not on this thread.

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
Chris Hyland



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(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,13:27   

I have a few quick questions regarding Paley's universe.

Is anyone on earth apart from you (and us) aware of the nature of the universe?

If not why not, wouldnt people who sent satellites etc up there have noticed.

Why have our governments lied about sending probes into space. Why has no one involved in the conspiracy leaked anything.

If people are aware of the true nature of the universe, couldn't they just adjust the trajectory of probes etc to account for this.

  
Ichthyic



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(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,13:30   

Quote
Otherwise, this whole thread will rapidly degenerate into farce...


You mean that's not what it was supposed to be in the first place?

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

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The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,13:32   

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By the way, Bill: those photographs of Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, etc., are "observations," which you're not allowed to dispute (i.e., they're not "artists' conceptions," "computer drawings," etc.). So I think as far as your model is concerned, claims that those photos weren't taken by interplanetary probes aren't allowed either.


Anything else, Daddy?  :D  
   
OK, I accept the astronaught/probe claims at face value for the purposes of this discussion.
           
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So I guess you're stuck with the fact that there have been, in fact, interplanetary unmanned voyages to various planets. Otherwise, this whole thread will rapidly degenerate into farce. Feel free to dispute the moon landings, mars exploration, etc.—just not on this thread.

And in conjunction with Ved's comment let me make a condition of my own - let's focus on the Solar System for now*....after all, I'll still have to deal with those dreadful Venusian phases and GEO satellites n' Foucault et al. So it's not like I'm ducking a lot. Deal?

Chris Hyland:
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Is anyone on earth apart from you (and us) aware of the nature of the universe?

If not why not, wouldnt people who sent satellites etc up there have noticed.

Why have our governments lied about sending probes into space. Why has no one involved in the conspiracy leaked anything.

If people are aware of the true nature of the universe, couldn't they just adjust the trajectory of probes etc to account for this.


Now Chris, you know this is verboten on this thread.


*although I'll also refute parallax

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,13:42   

So the timeline looks like tomorrow evening or Thursday. I should have some stuff by then.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
ericmurphy



Posts: 2460
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 13 2006,14:02   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ June 13 2006,18:32)
   
Quote
By the way, Bill: those photographs of Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, etc., are "observations," which you're not allowed to dispute (i.e., they're not "artists' conceptions," "computer drawings," etc.). So I think as far as your model is concerned, claims that those photos weren't taken by interplanetary probes aren't allowed either.


Anything else, Daddy?  :D  

Just restating the ground rules, since I could smell a ruckus over those "faked" moon landings on the way.
   
 
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And in conjunction with Ved's comment let me make a condition of my own - let's focus on the Solar System for now*....after all, I'll still have to deal with those dreadful Venusian phases and GEO satellites n' Foucault et al. So it's not like I'm ducking a lot. Deal?

*although I'll also refute parallax

Well, you've got to start somewhere, and it wouldn't hurt to start right where every other cosmology ever developed starts. We'll get to the other stuff—HR diagrams, Cepheids, cosmic elemental abundances, the CMB, galaxies, metals, etc.—sometime in 2015, I'm guessing.

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
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