Louis
Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006
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{Puts on vaguely serious hat for once}
Deadman,
Purpose and utility: I'm going to divide this into two types: personal and general.
The general purpose and utility of arguing with denialists of any stripe in any forum is undeniable. They need countering vocally in public and I fully agree that the web is a good place to "train" and cut one's chops so to speak. Not only that but for the professional combating of denialist nonsense it serves as an excellent way to gather information. Out of such efforts have things like the discovery of the Wedge document arisen. On the wider picture you and I are in full agreement.
The personal purpose and utility of arguing is also undeniable, but only up to a certain point. Yes, as mentioned above, it can serve as great training. Yes, it can force one to examine subjects one might not have even considered before. That for me personally has been the greatest utility. I've learned about areas of study I didn't know existed and my offline pursuit of understanding of them has broadened my education considerably. I have a vastly better understanding of how deeply ignorant I am about a huge amount of stuff! The more I learn, the more ignorant I realise I am. It's very humbling and very challenging. It makes me want to correct that ignorance ever more.
I agree think challenging yourself by arguing with people holding different ideas is a good thing, it's how I changed a lot of my old, dodgier ideas for one, and you're right it forces a deeper examination both personally and on a wider level. That said, for any given individual, that utility dramatically drops off when they've learned the general pattern of fundy funster behaviour etc. When the "basics" are learned then time offline, maybe even several years worth, is what's needed. The online antics and "debate" become a distraction from the pursuit of that self education that the original spurt of online antics and debate illustrated a need for.
For example, can you really say that any creationist has presented you with anything intellectually challenging within the last year (likely more than that)? Many of the people here have finely honed, highly tuned, massive calibre muppet guns. Let's for the sake of argument assume that Clownshoes is serious. Let's assume Clownshoes is a genuine creationist, a real person, most likely from somewhere in the central/southern USA who sincerely believes what he/she is typing out here. The second someone like Clownshoes puts finger to keyboard half a dozen of us blow him out of the internet. These poor stooges have no chance, hence why they resort to the usual bullshit they do (tone concern, evasion, Gish Gallops etc etc). How many times have you played out the Grand Canyon arguments? How many times has the information issue been discussed? How many times has each and every one of us described the various modes of selection, the various types of speciation etc. It's like shooting fish in a barrel. It's not a challenge any more.
Also, let's be blunt, playing on the web has its uses but it's hardly real life activism. I think few, if any, of us can claim to contribute what, for example, Wes does in real life for the cause of combating antievolution. Things like PT, Pharyngula etc have grown out of people mucking about on TO, so I know this has its purposes and utility.
My comment above is more to do with individual utility. I'm not going to, or at least very unlikely to, go into combating antievolution in a direct professional sense. Hence this has reached a natural endpoint of utility for me. I don't need or want to tilt at every windmill that appears. I don't for one second criticise those who do, after all I did that too, it just no longer serves the purpose for me it once did. I have new things to learn. Hence why my continued ennui with the whole shebang. I will mention on very large caveat: should new evidence come up, or should a new creationist genuinely interested in discussion as opposed to recycling AIG misconceptions arrive, I'll change my tune. The intellectual to and fro is exciting, useful and interesting. Previous bouts have illustrated to me the glaring holes in my knowledge I need to fill, so my bookshelves now grown with a huge amount of books on evolutionary biology (all read), geology (some read), philosophy (some read) and theology (some read) etc. Amazon.co.uk has done very well out of me and my horizons have been sufficiently expanded to allow me to know what I need to learn better. I need to get on with doing that, and I am.
I hang around because, well, and don't take this the wrong way, I like you guys! The banter is, well, pretty silly, and that amuses me. The fact that there are a hardcore group of people that can swing into action at the merest sniff of a muppet is hilarious, and I'm still learning things from you guys occasionally (esp for example about computer science and information theory).
Cheers
Louis
-------------- Bye.
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