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Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2008,20:11   

Steve suggested over on the BW that I open a thread to blog about the Biology course I'm taking in my first semester in college.  Here it is.

A little about the course:

It's Bio 111, with a lab, and it's the first course along my way to a Biology Education degree.  

The instructor, who I'll just name "Doc" for now, earned his bachelor's at Ohio State, his master's at University of North Carolina Wilmington, and his PhD at North Carolina State.  Along the way, he taught various places, including at Coastal.  He's been teaching there for (if I recall correctly) 22 years or so.

The text we're using is Biology, Eighth Edition, by Campbell & Reese et al, and the lab manual is Biology, Ninth Edition, by Sylvia S. Mader.

I have the lecture at 8:00 AM on MWF, and the lab is Mondays from 11:00 to 2:00.

Monday's lecture was mostly course introduction, reviewing the syllabus, that sort of thing.  With a bit of time left in the class period, Doc opened the floor to questions.  I asked him about his background, and hence the biographical content above.

Monday's lab consisted of some discussion of the Scientific Method, evidence, and making observations, creating hypotheses, predictions, and testing, and making conclusions.  There was more than a little stress placed on the idea that in Science, we don't prove things, we disprove them or we say that evidence supports our conclusions.  A lot of that discussion can be found in various forms all over this board, or at your friendly neighborhood Science blog or ScienceBlog.

We then played some cards.  Specifically, we did a class demonstration of a game called Eleusis.

The idea of the game is to demonstrate the Scientific Method in a way that students can relate to it.

One person is designated "Nature".  Nature draws a small envelope from a larger one, and inside the smaller envelope there is a rule for a sequence of cards.  The rule might be "Black Red Black Red" or "2,4,6,8" or something having to do with the four suits of cards.  Each of the smaller envelopes contains a different rule, and each is numbered (ie. Rule #6)

Nature picks two cards out of the deck and lays them on the desk to begin the sequence.

The other members of the group then make their initial observation of the first two cards and form a joint hypothesis about the rule (writing it down of course).  They then find a card in the deck to test their hypothesis, and hand the card to Nature, who places is either next in the sequence if it fits the rule, or perpendicular to the last card that fit the sequence if it does not.  The group then observes the "test result" and progresses from there until they are confident they have figured out the rule.

One thing Doc really stressed was that Nature was to remain absolutely silent, never ever giving the rule.  Not during the process, not when the group is sure they have it, not during the comparisons later, not ever.  The idea being of course, that Nature really doesn't ever tell us if we're right.  There is no right.  There is only supported or not supported by the evidence.

After the class demonstration, the class broke into three or four smaller groups and each group played this game for some time.

Afterwards, each group sent a representative up to the board to write down their theories about the rules.  It sort of mimicked a portion of the post-peer review experiment replication process, in that each group was repeating the exact same experiments and then comparing results.

None of the groups finished all ten rules.  There was overlap on many of the rules that were completed, and in some, all the groups got the same answer.  In others, there were two or three groups that had different answers for the same rule.

We then discussed what happens in Science when one group of scientists does an experiment, but other scientists get differing results from the same experiment.  It seemed to be very instructive to the class.  They got it.

Moving on, cross posting from the BW, here are my notes and thoughts from this morning's lecture:

Quote (Lou FCD @ Aug. 20 2008,11:24)
Great introductory bio lecture this morning.  Living vs. nonliving stuff, hierarchies, stressing on evidence, that sort of thing.

One thing Doc really spent some time on was the difficulty in defining life, and how any definition of life has to encompass so much.

Some notes:

Over the thin skin of the earth, the only place we know for sure that life exists, we've documented and catalogued:

over 350,000 species of plants, over a million species of animals (BEETLES!!!), and thousands upon thousands of fungi, protists, bacteria.  Given that we have documented about 1.8 million species of life, here's some context:

That's life on earth now.
Water covers 70+% of the surface area and 99% of the volume of the known biosphere.  We've explored perhaps 5% of that.
Over 95%, and perhaps as much as 99% of all species ever are now extinct.
Earth is a dust mote in the context of the cosmos

Any definition of life would have to cover the species we know, the species that are extinct, the species that live in the vast majority of the Earth we haven't even been to, and then still cover any life we might find elsewhere.

Holy crap, that really is overwhelming in that context.

He also mentioned Justice Potter Stewart's famous quote about pornography from the 1964 Jacobellis v. Ohio case, "I know it when I see it".  It was an interesting aside.

Another interesting note from today's lecture:

Discussing the definition of Science, our working definition is 'an evidence-based way of learning about the natural world'.

and allow me this little quote on the subject of evidence, from my prof:

"...not just because it's written in a book somewhere."

Dogs and cats came up in the context of heredity, and I imagine that it wasn't accidental.  Sort of the wind up for the pitch to follow later, I think.

I'm loving my Biology class, in case anyone couldn't tell.


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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Timothy McDougald



Posts: 1036
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2008,22:03   

Brilliant! I'm going to have to see if I can find that game.

--------------
Church burning ebola boy

FTK: I Didn't answer your questions because it beats the hell out of me.

PaV: I suppose for me to be pried away from what I do to focus long and hard on that particular problem would take, quite honestly, hundreds of thousands of dollars to begin to pique my interest.

   
Lou FCD



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 21 2008,05:07   

Quote (afarensis @ Aug. 20 2008,23:03)
Brilliant! I'm going to have to see if I can find that game.

The only thing you really need are several decks of regular playing cards, a large manila envelope, several small manila envelopes, and little strips of paper for the rules. Just print them out and cut them up.

Doc had a really big set of cards for the class demonstration to make it easy for everyone to see.  They were probably about 12" X 18" or something.  Instead of placing them on the desk, he used magnets to put them up on the white board.

Also, it works best if there is a minimum group size of four.  Then each person takes a turn at being Nature.

I have to wonder if there might even be an electronic version.

Hey, there's a Wikipedia entry, even.

ETA:More info about the game, and a page with the rules

ETAA: Also, when writing the rules remember to keep it simple.  Each rule should only play on one variable, and the variables were restricted to suit, value, and color.  So


Quote
Hearts, Spades, Diamonds, Clubs, Clubs, Diamonds, Spades, Hearts


or

Quote
Each card increases by two: 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, Q, A, 3, 5, 7,...


or

Quote
Red, Red, Black, Black, Red, Red, Black, Black


would be good rules for the demonstration.

ETAAA: We just let the group pick the card out from the deck and hand it to Nature, who did the placing of the card, rather than the way the rules on that page state.

Also there was no hint from Nature.  Nature was not to speak at all (mimicking real Nature, who NEVER gives hints), not even saying "correct" or "incorrect".  Even after the lab was over, we didn't know which rules the different groups got right or wrong.

Edited by Lou FCD on Aug. 21 2008,06:23

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 21 2008,07:45   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Aug. 21 2008,06:07)
   
Quote (afarensis @ Aug. 20 2008,23:03)
Brilliant! I'm going to have to see if I can find that game.

The only thing you really need are several decks of regular playing cards, a large manila envelope, several small manila envelopes, and little strips of paper for the rules. Just print them out and cut them up...

Reminiscent of the Wisconsin card sort, used in neuropsychological testing. A task very sensitive to particular forms of brain damage, esp. to the frontal lobes, which mediate executive functioning.

The subject is presented cards (created for the purpose) and required to deduce a rule governing their classification, which is indicated by which of two piles each card is placed in. The rule is generally quite simple.

Once the subject is consistently employing the rule to predict where each card will be placed, the rule changes. Suddenly, some of their answers are wrong.  

The measure is how long the subject persists in applying the old rule, which no longer works, before deducing the new one. Persons with frontal brain damage often deduce the original rule quickly, but persist in applying it long after it has ceased to be appropriate.

(WAD? Behe? Meyers? Step over here...)

ETA: You go, Lou.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
J-Dog



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Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 21 2008,08:07   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Aug. 21 2008,07:45)
The measure is how long the subject persists in applying the old rule, which no longer works, before deducing the new one. Persons with frontal brain damage often deduce the original rule quickly, but persist in applying it long after it has ceased to be appropriate.

(WAD? Behe? Meyers? Step over here...)

ETA: You go, Lou.

How embarrassing for them - and perceptive of you to notice this!

The entire ID charade, and their entire careers and lives summed up as a footnote about an error in thinking.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Lou FCD



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 21 2008,11:18   

Oh, I almost forgot.  During the first lecture, I totally stole a line from David Heddle.  It was perfect, and classic.

Doc asked, "Anybody know what the difference is between this class, Bio 111, and the other Biology class, Bio 110?"

To which I shamelessly replied, "That other class is 'Biology for Poets'."*

Big laughs from the class, and a valiant effort at repressing a smirk from Doc.  He nearly succeeded.

*A similar line about Physics classes appears in Heddle's novel, Here, Eyeball This!, which I am currently reading in my "spare" time.  Here's a hat tip, Heddle!

Edited by Lou FCD on Aug. 21 2008,12:19

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
JonF



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Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 21 2008,11:35   

Quote (afarensis @ Aug. 20 2008,23:03)
Brilliant! I'm going to have to see if I can find that game.

Invented by Robert Abbott in 1956. Martin Gardner wrote about it in Scientific American in 1959. Abbott updated it in the 70's.

Eleusis and Eleusis Express

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 21 2008,11:54   

Quote (JonF @ Aug. 21 2008,12:35)
 
Quote (afarensis @ Aug. 20 2008,23:03)
Brilliant! I'm going to have to see if I can find that game.

Invented by Robert Abbott in 1956. Martin Gardner wrote about it in Scientific American in 1959. Abbott updated it in the 70's.

Eleusis and Eleusis Express

hmph.  Not paying attention in class, Jon?

*ahem*

 
Quote (Lou FCD @ Aug. 21 2008,06:07)
Hey, there's a Wikipedia entry, even.

ETA:More info about the game, and a page with the rules


Edited by Lou FCD on Aug. 21 2008,12:54

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 21 2008,12:05   

Lou

Thanks for starting this thread. Our classes start on Monday, and I am up to my eyeballs in things that I need to do before then, but I will follow with interest your exploits at Coastal Carolina. Our class here is not a traditional lecture/lab course like yours; it is in the studio format and thus is sorta experimental. But lots of things that are done in the traditional formats are still adaptable for us, so keep posting!

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Venus Mousetrap



Posts: 201
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 21 2008,12:13   

I play a card game called Mao, which sounds like this only less useful. One of the rules is that you can't be told the rules, and that you have to deduce them as people play. The core rules are simple (lay cards of like suit, or like value, some cards have special effects like the 8 reversing direction of play, etc.) but the reward for winning (by losing all your cards) is that you get to add a new rule of your own invention, which must then be deduced by the other players.

This eventually results in lots of rules acting at once, which is why the game has an explicit Point of Order which can be called if two players need to decide if their rules are clashing and which takes priority, etc.) It's neat. Unless, in my case, you utterly wreck the game by suddenly doubling the number of suits to 8 and making it near impossible to win, and they wouldn't let me cancel my rule *grumble grumble*

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 21 2008,12:35   

Venus,

Yeah, I think I read something about the similarity to Mao on the Wiki page or something, though I've never played Mao.

Bill and Alby,

Thanks, I hope you guys enjoy reading about the class, and maybe find something useful.  I'm certainly enjoying the class thus far, both the lecture and the lab.*

*disclaimer:  I was just thinking about sending Doc an email with a link to this thread, and my opinion of the class as stated in this thread is in no way affected by my desire to suck up for an A.  :)

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 21 2008,12:56   

Quote

The measure is how long the subject persists in applying the old rule, which no longer works, before deducing the new one. Persons with frontal brain damage often deduce the original rule quickly, but persist in applying it long after it has ceased to be appropriate.


People with perseverative frontal lobe damage never switch rules in the Wisconsin card sort. This is despite the fact that such patients may be able to describe the WCS procedure, plan a strategy for changing rules, and express an expectation that they will, this next time, manage to switch rules.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 21 2008,13:03   

Nice thread Lou, the course sounds really good. As you might now I spent 1 year doing a Bio-Informatics Bachelor, ofcourse with a biology class. But what shocked me is that we spend almost no time on the scientific method, how science works etc. How can you ever properly work with science if you don't know the basics?
Anyway, I'de love to do a similair biology course some day, but I don't think I can do that here in the Netherlands. I wonder how that works at your place Lou, how can someone at your age and no proper biology history (wich would be the case with me) end up in a university biology class. What kind of biology course is it anyway? Can you get a Master with it, or is it just for 1 year?
I bet it works very different over there in the US.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 21 2008,13:12   

Quote (Assassinator @ Aug. 21 2008,14:03)
Nice thread Lou, the course sounds really good. As you might now I spent 1 year doing a Bio-Informatics Bachelor, ofcourse with a biology class. But what shocked me is that we spend almost no time on the scientific method, how science works etc. How can you ever properly work with science if you don't know the basics?
Anyway, I'de love to do a similair biology course some day, but I don't think I can do that here in the Netherlands. I wonder how that works at your place Lou, how can someone at your age and no proper biology history (wich would be the case with me) end up in a university biology class. What kind of biology course is it anyway? Can you get a Master with it, or is it just for 1 year?
I bet it works very different over there in the US.

Assassinator,

This is just the first semester of my very first year.  I'm just like a kid who just graduated secondary school.  In fact, most of the students (though not all) in all of my classes are exactly that.  I'm "The Old Man" in a classroom mostly full of kids.  (In fact, I've been given that exact nickname in my English class...)

It's a lot of fun, but it'll be two years at Coastal for me to get an Associate's degree in Biology Ed., then I'll have to transfer to the University of North Carolina - Wilmington to finish my Bachelor's degree (another two years, if all goes well).  Then I can get certified to teach in a secondary school.

Until then, I'm just another poor Uni student making his way, just older and with a messed up neck and back.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 21 2008,13:51   

Aaa, I thought you were just doing a loose biology course for 'shits & giggles'. But you're actually wanting to become a biology teacher, I wish you good luck with that ;) My mom (snicker) did something similair, but she got a much lower degree for a primaire school teacher assistant. I'm still very proud of her, that she managed to do that while also having to run a family.

I don't think I'll ever do something similair, but I still would like to experience biology in a true educational setting. I hope that's possible, first I'll have to focus myself on my Journalism Bachelor. There are still some scientific opportunities with that, I can alwayse dive into science journalism. In the meantime I'll just follow this thread about your educational adventures.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2008,10:53   

This morning's lecture was teh awesome.

Doc started with some announcements, a reminder to get a composition book and a folder for lab, and a reminder about the Science Club.  There is a 2hr canoe paddle on the New River and a shore clean up thing on September the 6th.  After my English class I stopped by the Doc's office and gave him the $2 for membership, though obviously I can't do the canoe thing, for physical reasons.  If I'm free that day, I may see if I can just meet the club at the clean-up site.

Does membership in the Science Club make me an official Science Geek now?  I mean, I've even paid the dues and all! I'd like to be part of the Official Science Geek Club.  I mean, that's part of the benefits package, right?  Plus, Science Geeks have the hottest chic ... uh... I mean that means nothing to me because I'm married.

Ok, on to the lecture, y'all quit distracting me with the pleasures and temptations of the flesh:

Doc started out by going over the levels of biological organization that we ended with on Wednesday, and laid out that we'd be covering the bottom levels mostly in Bio 111, and why.  Seeing as how you have to understand the basics of the building blocks before you can really start to understand the higher levels, it makes sense that we're going to be spending our time at the levels of cells and their constituent parts (molecules, atoms, subatomic particles).  We'll be skipping up to the Population level in the last unit of the course.

Bio 112 will focus on the upper levels.

For anyone not familiar who might be reading this, here's what we're talking about, from the top level down.  Each level consists of members of the next lower level.  It's pretty straightforward.

 
Quote
Biosphere
  Ecosystems
     Communities
        Populations
           Organisms
              Organ Systems
                 Organs
                    Tissues
                       Cells
----------------------------------------------
                          Molecules
                             Atoms
                                Subatomic Particles


So doc drew a analogy between Bio 111 and the foundation of a house.  It takes months to put in the foundation, and it's critical to get it right, because the rest of the house, while quick and easy to put up in comparison, requires a good foundation.

So, why are we dealing with cells?  Cells are the basic structural and functional units of life.

Structural ----> All living things are made up of cells
Functional ---> All the Unity of Life functions occur at the cellular level

So then he posed the question of why are cells alive and why are their constituent parts (molecules) not alive?  (Hence the line in the organization level diagram above.)

Emergent Properties

The properties of a level of biological organization not present in lower levels, resulting from the interactions of their constituent parts.  Emergent Properties are in most cases unexpected, and not predicted from knowledge of the properties of the lower level parts.

EX 1: Water
Water is made up of hydrogen and oxygen, two flammable gases
But water, as a result of the interaction of hydrogen and oxygen is a non-flammable liquid (at room temperatures)

EX 2: Sodium Chloride
Sodium is a highly reactive explosive silvery metal
Chlorine is a toxic gas
Table salt is vitally necessary for life

EX 3: Tree
Carbon Dioxide gas and liquid water interact to form a 500 kilo tree.

(Note: The question was posed by Doc: "Where does a seed get all the stuff to make a tree?"  I was surprised that I'd never really thought about where the wood comes from.  Obviously not the soil, as Doc pointed out, or the tree would be in the middle of a big hole.  Where does all that stuff come from?  CO2 and water.)

So then we came back to The Diversity and Unity of Life

1859 (I wanted to yell out the significance of this date when he wrote it on the board and left it hanging there all alone.)

"On the Origin of Species" by Charles Darwin

Doc talked about Darwin's voyage on the Beagle briefly, then dove in head first.  (As an aside, I kept an ear out for groans or clucking tongues, but didn't notice anything untoward.)

Descent with Modification

--All organisms are related by descent from a common ancestor ---> explains the unity of life.

--Populations change over time as they adapt to new or changing environments through the process of Natural Selection ---> explains the diversity of life.

 
Quote
"Descent with Modification is the only idea that explains both of these characteristics of life."


Doc then put up a table regarding generations of our ancestries:

 
Quote
Generation - Ancestors
1                  2  <----- 6,000,000,000 people on earth now
2                  4
3                  8
4                16
5                 32
6                 64
7                128
8                256
9                512
10             1024


So the question was, "why were there fewer people on earth two hundred years ago (about generation 10) than there are now? Why weren't there 1024 * 6B?"

The answer of course is that we share ancestors.  There were some ooos and aaaas at the impact of the numbers when it dawned on people that 1024 people were in their family tree in one generation just 200 years ago.  I'm the family armchair genealogist, so I had that moment years ago, but I remember it well.

To illustrate Descent with Modification, Doc drew a graph similar to the following:



and explained that each red dot was a species.

Then he filled in the ancestry tree thus:



Then he boxed in all the extant species, and explained that the reason that all life have cells and DNA and metabolism is because of heredity from the common ancestor.



And then explained that DNA replication is not perfect, and that errors occur and adaptation to the environment takes advantage of that to produce speciation:



So if a line of heredity develops trait X, its descendants will have trait X, and if another line develops trait Q, its descendants will have trait Q.

The lecture was straightforward and easy to follow, I imagine even for someone who doesn't hang around a bunch of Science Geeks.  Good day, for sure.

Quote
All images are clickable for larger versions at my Flickr page.  Created by me, and licensed for use as you see fit.


--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
dogdidit



Posts: 315
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2008,11:43   

Years ago (more years ago than I care to calculate just now) I took a college class in (classical) quantum mechanics. The professor didn't assign a text, but instead explained that all the material for the class would be presented on the blackboard during his lectures. Therefore (1) it was important to attend every lecture, or at least get notes from a buddy, and (2) it was important to take comprehensive notes! But the professor made it abundantly clear that good note-taking alone was insufficient; he strongly recommended that we re-copy our notes after class. His theory was that when we re-copied the notes, the study material would have to pass from our eyes to our hands, and would therefore have a good chance of encountering our brains along the way, where some of it might stick.

I took his advice. It was very effective.

Dude, keep up this blog and you are going to be a serious biology-knowing science geek fer sure.

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"Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2008,11:59   

Quote (dogdidit @ Aug. 22 2008,12:43)
Years ago (more years ago than I care to calculate just now) I took a college class in (classical) quantum mechanics. The professor didn't assign a text, but instead explained that all the material for the class would be presented on the blackboard during his lectures. Therefore (1) it was important to attend every lecture, or at least get notes from a buddy, and (2) it was important to take comprehensive notes! But the professor made it abundantly clear that good note-taking alone was insufficient; he strongly recommended that we re-copy our notes after class. His theory was that when we re-copied the notes, the study material would have to pass from our eyes to our hands, and would therefore have a good chance of encountering our brains along the way, where some of it might stick.

I took his advice. It was very effective.

Dude, keep up this blog and you are going to be a serious biology-knowing science geek fer sure.

Love the thought.  If it works as well as it should, I'll have to keep that in mind for when I start teaching.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2008,12:08   

Quote
(Note: The question was posed by Doc: "Where does a seed get all the stuff to make a tree?"  I was surprised that I'd never really thought about where the wood comes from.  Obviously not the soil, as Doc pointed out, or the tree would be in the middle of a big hole.  Where does all that stuff come from?  CO2 and water.)


That's sort of like when somebody puts a clipping from a flower in a pot with only water in it, and it somehow grows - without even any access to any dirt. :p

  
cogzoid



Posts: 234
Joined: Sep. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2008,12:10   

I wish I did the same thing.  A physics prof I had in college described his method when he was a student.  He would recopy the entire lecture in pen in a new notebook every night, correcting mistakes and carefully redrawing diagrams, etc.  He still has those notebooks and uses them to construct his own lectures.  Most undergrad physics hasn't budged in a hundred years, so they work just fine.  Of course, I didn't hear the story until I was done with classes in grad school.  By then it was too late!

  
Spottedwind



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Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2008,15:51   

I wanted to quickly throw out a word of thanks and support for this thread.  Not only is it great that you are going back to college, but I love hearing about it.

I received my BS in Wildlife Biology 7 years ago but am not yet in my field; heck, I'm not even in biology right now.  I've got a simple state job that pays the bills, but it leaves me missing science to no end.  For the past few months, I've been lurking here, PT, and many other places (when our internet filters let them through) to try to get a fix when I can.  I'm still applying for jobs, volunteering at a zoo, and trying to remember that I'm still young and that there is no maximum age to begin an entry level position.  Still, I get discouraged sometimes and it seems like a cubicle farm is all I'll ever see.

You posting about the classes kind of helps me to re-energize.  Coming here in general does that, but to see your excitement about learning is kind of contagious.  I feel like I haven't used much of my knowledge in the past few years and reading over this thread is a great mental exercise.  How much do I remember?  Did I ever learn that?  It helps me to gain a bit more confidence to get up, dust off, and keep trying.

But I digress.  I wish you the best of luck on the entire endeavor and thanks again for posting about it!

(This post ended up longer than planned...I've been meaning to de-lurk for sometime...guess I waited too long  :D )

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2008,16:28   

Quote (Henry J @ Aug. 22 2008,13:08)
That's sort of like when somebody puts a clipping from a flower in a pot with only water in it, and it somehow grows - without even any access to any dirt. :p

Yeah, exactly!  I just never really thought about it.  It's magic!!!!  :)  (No son, it's science.)

 
Quote (cogzoid @ Aug. 22 2008,13:10)
I wish I did the same thing.  A physics prof I had in college described his method when he was a student.  He would recopy the entire lecture in pen in a new notebook every night, correcting mistakes and carefully redrawing diagrams, etc.  He still has those notebooks and uses them to construct his own lectures.  Most undergrad physics hasn't budged in a hundred years, so they work just fine.  Of course, I didn't hear the story until I was done with classes in grad school.  By then it was too late!


I think I might apply the same technique to my precalc class, especially since between the notes and the homework, I'm about halfway through my notebook already anyway!

 
Quote (Spottedwind @ Aug. 22 2008,16:51)
I wanted to quickly throw out a word of thanks and support for this thread.  Not only is it great that you are going back to college, but I love hearing about it.

I received my BS in Wildlife Biology 7 years ago but am not yet in my field; heck, I'm not even in biology right now.  I've got a simple state job that pays the bills, but it leaves me missing science to no end.  For the past few months, I've been lurking here, PT, and many other places (when our internet filters let them through) to try to get a fix when I can.  I'm still applying for jobs, volunteering at a zoo, and trying to remember that I'm still young and that there is no maximum age to begin an entry level position.  Still, I get discouraged sometimes and it seems like a cubicle farm is all I'll ever see.

You posting about the classes kind of helps me to re-energize.  Coming here in general does that, but to see your excitement about learning is kind of contagious.  I feel like I haven't used much of my knowledge in the past few years and reading over this thread is a great mental exercise.  How much do I remember?  Did I ever learn that?  It helps me to gain a bit more confidence to get up, dust off, and keep trying.

But I digress.  I wish you the best of luck on the entire endeavor and thanks again for posting about it!

(This post ended up longer than planned...I've been meaning to de-lurk for sometime...guess I waited too long  :D )


Thanks for joining the conversation, Spottedwind.  I'm glad this thread helps you to pick yourself up, and also that it moved you to delurk.  

Besides being the one productive job that I might be able to do with my screwed up spine, part of the impetus for me doing this is the desperate need for teachers in our area.  Here in Onslow County, NC, we're expecting an influx of about 11,000 Marines (or maybe more) in the next few years, plus their families, plus civilian support staff, plus their families.  All totaled, we're expecting 40k to 200k people (depends on exactly what the Corps does, and whose figures you're looking at).  That means there are going to be a boatload of kids needing teachers in the not too distant future.  And some of those teachers will need to be Science teachers.

It's not a bad place to live if you can deal with the ultra-right-wing nationalism that runs a little rampant in a military town.  Just something for you to consider.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2008,17:01   

Dear Mrs. Lou,

       I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings -- but this drawing by one of Lou's classmates has come to my attention:


       Your friend, deadman_932

P.S. Notice how your husband is altering his appearance to seem younger and Spicoli-like in class. Possibly just for his nefarious purposes.



Edited by Lou FCD on Aug. 22 2008,19:10

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2008,17:47   

LOL

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2008,17:56   

I actually had something like that back in my early high-school years. The only difference was that the uber cute/hot biology teacher was really short, and I already was friggin huge. That switch of positions also gives an...interesting perspective, from my point of view ;)

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2008,17:59   

Quote (deadman_932 @ Aug. 22 2008,15:01)
Dear Mrs. Lou,

       I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings -- but this drawing by one of Lou's classmates has come to my attention:


       Your friend, deadman_932

P.S. Notice how your husband is altering his appearance to seem younger and Spicoli-like in class. Possibly just for his nefarious purposes.

If Lou doesn't give you Post of the Month for that, he needs to be fired.

PS: The scare quotes around 'Doc'? The perfect touch!

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2008,18:11   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Aug. 22 2008,18:59)
If Lou doesn't give you Post of the Month for that, he needs to be fired.

PS: The scare quotes around 'Doc'? The perfect touch!

I haven't made a POTM graphic.  Will that hold you over?

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2008,18:13   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Aug. 22 2008,16:11)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Aug. 22 2008,18:59)
If Lou doesn't give you Post of the Month for that, he needs to be fired.

PS: The scare quotes around 'Doc'? The perfect touch!

I haven't made a POTM graphic.  Will that hold you over?

I guess it will have to do.  :angry:

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2008,18:17   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Aug. 22 2008,14:28)
Besides being the one productive job that I might be able to do with my screwed up spine, part of the impetus for me doing this is the desperate need for teachers in our area.  Here in Onslow County, NC, we're expecting an influx of about 11,000 Marines (or maybe more) in the next few years, plus their families, plus civilian support staff, plus their families.  All totaled, we're expecting 40k to 200k people (depends on exactly what the Corps does, and whose figures you're looking at).

Perhaps I'm being a bit obtuse, but what's this about? I mean, I assume this is all a result of our killing uppity Muslims for their oil defending democracy in the Middle East, but why all those people in the next few years? Is that Marines returning, or some new massive buildup for an invasion of Iran that no one's told me about?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2008,18:44   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Aug. 22 2008,19:17)
Perhaps I'm being a bit obtuse, but what's this about? I mean, I assume this is all a result of our killing uppity Muslims for their oil defending democracy in the Middle East, but why all those people in the next few years? Is that Marines returning, or some new massive buildup for an invasion of Iran that no one's told me about?

No, that's a base-reorganization thing (read: base closures), where the Marines displaced from other locations will be transferred to Camp Lejeune.

Those figures don't include Marines that would return from abroad should the next PotUS pull our collective asses out of the fire.  So add lots of baby making to that, for several years down the road.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2008,23:16   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Aug. 22 2008,18:13)
 
Quote (Lou FCD @ Aug. 22 2008,16:11)
 
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Aug. 22 2008,18:59)
If Lou doesn't give you Post of the Month for that, he needs to be fired.

PS: The scare quotes around 'Doc'? The perfect touch!

I haven't made a POTM graphic.  Will that hold you over?

I guess it will have to do.  :angry:

Id like to thank all the little people that made this possible. Finally my jelousy-ridden peers have aknolejed  aknowliged  seen my geniuseness and awarded me that which has alluded such lunimaries as John A. Davidson,  Larry Farfleman, Louis and even that so-called Newton of Informations, William Dembski.

I stand before you even grander than before and a giant among pigmies. You may bask in my radiunce. But this thread is not about me, it is about Lou. (HAHAHA! I WIN!!!1!1)

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Arden Chatfield



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 23 2008,19:00   

HAR HAR THIS IS LOU

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
EyeNoU



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 24 2008,06:51   

Been doing any "experiments" while at college, Lou?



  
rhmc



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 24 2008,07:35   

Quote (dogdidit @ Aug. 22 2008,12:43)
he strongly recommended that we re-copy our notes after class.

i will vouch for that method of learning.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 24 2008,09:09   

Quote (EyeNoU @ Aug. 24 2008,07:51)
Been doing any "experiments" while at college, Lou?

Geez, I wish.

By the time Friday rolled around, I was in pretty bad shape.  It's taken all weekend for the pain to start easing up enough to concentrate well.

Speaking of which, I have a precalc quiz tomorrow and a bunch of homework due Wednesday, so I'd better get to it.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 24 2008,13:11   

I've reformatted the posts for proper blogging and posted them at Crowded Head.

It occurred to me that it might be good fodder for the Tangled Bank, so I've submitted the most recent one to Dr. PZ.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 26 2008,16:44   



My notes and thoughts from Biology 111, for Monday, August 25, 2008. The entire series can be found here in blog post form. To go to this post directly, click here.

We began Monday's lecture where we left off on Friday (which is always a good place to start). Doc put the tree of life back up on the white board, and we did a quick review of what we went over on Friday regarding inheritance and emergence.

We then began to work a bit on Natural Selection, using Salmon as an example.

Natural Selection
Variation within a Population + Heredity + Differential Reproductive Success* = Natural Selection


Doc stressed that Natural Selection works at the Population level, and not at the individual level.  It's important to stress this, as it's the beginning of the explanation of why dogs don't give birth to cats, that tired old moronic Creationist standby.

Salmon

We talked about the life cycle of the salmon. Salmon breed and spawn up river, in fresh-water lakes. The young remain in the lake until they are ready, then swim downstream to the ocean. Once out on the ocean, they mature. When they are ready to breed, they return up the same river in which they were born, spawning in the same waters as their parents did.


There is a natural variation in the body size of adult salmon. Remember We're talking about adult salmon size, not babies. That becomes important in a moment.



This is a gill net. It is the tool used by commercial fishermen to catch salmon. Of course, the fishermen want to catch the largest fish, to maximize the price they get per fish. To accomplish this, the net is sized with large holes between the strands, so that smaller fish get through.



The way a gill net works is that as the fish swim through, the large ones get partially through, then can go no further. In an attempt to escape, the salmon back up. At that point, their gills get caught in the net.

So what happens is that in a river fished with commercial gill nets, the smaller fish have a selective advantage, and live to breed another season. This imparts a genetic tendency toward smaller size salmon, as smaller salmon tend to have smaller offspring.

In a river not fished with commercial gill nets, the larger fish have a selective advantage, as they outsize a certain proportion of their natural predators.  The predators pick off the smaller fish, and that population of salmon will tend to have larger offspring. The larger fish have a smaller pool of predators large enough to eat them, so the larger salmon have an advantage here, and tend to live longer - long enough to breed. It's good to be bigger than the guy who wants to eat you.



Looking back at the tree of life chart, one population can be said to acquire trait Q, a smaller size, and the other population trait X, a larger size. As other changes take place due to other selective pressures that differ in the two populations of salmon, there may come a speciation event.

Again, speciation does not occur at the individual organism level, but at the population level. Descent with Modification is an emergent property at the population level.

Chapter Two - The Chemical Context of Life

This was pretty basic chemistry stuff.

There are 92 naturally occurring elements ---&gt; about a dozen are important to biology

Molecular Formulas

Water: H2O

Salt: NaCl

An atom is the smallest unit of an element.

Atoms are composed of subatomic particles

Symbol  Particle  Charge  Mass

p+        Proton      +    1 Dalton**
n          Neutron     0    1 Dalton
e-         Electron     -     ? 1/1800 Dalton


The number of p+ in a molecule an atom = the atomic number: each element has a unique atomic number.


Naturally Occurring Elements in the Human Body
(From the chart on page 32 of the textbook)


Symbol   Element   Atomic Number   Percentage of Human Body Weight

Elements making up about 96% of human body weight

O           Oxygen              8                        65.0
C           Carbon               6                        18.5
H           Hydrogen            1                         9.5
N           Nitrogen             7                         3.3

Elements making up about 4% of human body weight

Ca          Calcium             20                       1.5
P            Phosphorus        15                       1.0
K            Potassium         19                        0.4
S            Sulfur                16                       0.3
Na          Sodium              11                       0.2
Cl           Chlorine             17                       0.2
Mg          Magnesium        12                       0.1

Atoms normally are electrically neutral.

Number of p+= number of e-



Electrical attraction stablizes orbits, as the protons and electrons attract one another due to opposite electrical charges, but protons will repel each other and electrons will repel each other due to same electrical charges. Bear in mind that sketch is not to scale.

Note the protons and neutrons clustered in the nucleus, which gives the nucleus a positive charge.

Lab notes will have to wait, as I have Spanish and Precalc homework that needs attention. (Preview hint: we got to play with live termites!)


*Individuals with certain traits produce more offspring than those with other traits.

** The unit of mass for subatomic particles is the Dalton (also sometimes known as the Atomic Mass Unit or AMU), named for John Dalton, the modern developer of Atomic Theory.

     
Quote
From whence came the art:

The first image is of our textbook, Biology, Eighth Edition, by Campbell & Reese.

Other images created by me, using the salmon from wikipedia commons, and are free to do with as you see fit.


Edited to correct a transcription error, courtesy of Henry, below.

Edited by Lou FCD on Aug. 26 2008,22:55

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 26 2008,16:55   

PotW!

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 26 2008,18:37   

Lou FCD:

 
Quote

So what happens is that in a river fished with commercial gill nets, the smaller fish have a selective advantage, and live to breed another season. This imparts a genetic tendency toward smaller size salmon, as smaller salmon tend to have smaller offspring.


Iteroparous species breed multiple times over a lifetime. Semelparous species breed once in a lifetime.

The negative selective effect described for gill nets will be stronger for semelparous rather than iteroparous species. IIRC, the explanation hinges on the age-specific distribution of V_x, "reproductive value". Depending on that distribution and the specifics of the heritability of size at a given age, it could actually be the case that positive selection for the trait would be favored in an iteroparous population despite universal exposure to gill-nets. Essentially, if the selective disadvantage in loss of V_x at the oldest age classes is more than balanced by increased V_x in the younger age classes, positive selection for the trait will continue.

Consequence: the example is undercut by describing its application to iteroparous species. The example should, for pedagogical purposes, refer only to the case for semelparous species.

A similar argument as what I outlined above underlies Medawar's hypothesis of senescence.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Wesley R. Elsberry



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 26 2008,18:41   

“Evolution Makes a Mockery of Fishing Policy”

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 26 2008,21:08   

Thank you, Rich, but the Doc really should get the credit.  I just took notes.  :)

Wesley, I appreciate the explanation and the link to your post.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Henry J



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(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 26 2008,21:28   

Quote
The number of p+ in a molecule = the atomic number: each element has a unique atomic number.


I think that should read p+ in an atom, rather than in a molecule.

Quote
(Preview hint: we got to play with live termites!;)


Hopefully not in a wooden building! ;)

Henry

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 26 2008,21:52   

Quote (Henry J @ Aug. 26 2008,22:28)
Quote
The number of p+ in a molecule = the atomic number: each element has a unique atomic number.


I think that should read p+ in an atom, rather than in a molecule.

 
Quote
(Preview hint: we got to play with live termites!)


Hopefully not in a wooden building! ;)

Henry

Quite right, Henry.  Sorry.

I'll fix it when I can.

ETA: fixed.

Edited by Lou FCD on Aug. 26 2008,22:55

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 28 2008,16:03   



My notes and thoughts from Biology 111, for Monday, August 25, 2008. The entire series can be found here.

Lab on Monday was another really fascinating demonstration of the Scientific Method. We even got to play with real live bugs - termites, to be specific. The college keeps a colony of them, which is just cool in and of itself.

So the lab opened with Doc having us split into groups of three and four again, and then handed out a blank sheet of white paper to each group, along with a red ball-point pen and a small paint brush. Each group was instructed to make a circle on the paper using the red pen.

Then the fun part started.

Doc walked around to each group with a little tupperware container, beginning with our group. When she saw what he had in the tupperware, my female lab parter immediately got a little squicked out. Termites!

Just seeing her squirm was worth the price of admission, but by the end of the lab she was fine, as long as she didn't have to touch them with her hand. Fortunately for her, that's what the paintbrush was for. Once the termite was on the paper, the paintbrush was for wrangling the termite without squishing him. All we had to do was make sure he didn't wander off the paper.

So I had the paintbrush, because Squicky Britches was still icking out, and all of a sudden, something totally unexpected happened.

Our little termite had begun to follow the red line in a circle! He was like a little NASCAR driver, in a continuous left turn.

We started hollering at the other groups, telling them all about how brilliant our little termite (who I'd named Fred) was. About that time, other groups were still receiving their termites, and everyone was standing or craning to check out our little prodigy.

Then one at a time, other termites began to find the red circles, and sure enough, they started racing around their own little tracks.

Doc let us just be fascinated for a while, which was way cool of him. I don't think anyone in the room was anything short of amazed at this behavior. Eventually though, it was time to get to work. What was causing this behavior in the termites? Our mission, whether we chose to accept it or not, was to figure it out.

Observation:

Given a white sheet of paper with a red circle in ball-point ink and a live termite, the termite tends to follow the red line. A second termite (who we named Ginger, though my lab partners are much too young to understand the significance) exhibits the same behavior.

Question:

What causes the termites to tend to follow the red line?

Hypotheses:

We formed four hypotheses in the beginning, the testing of which is the focus of this lab.
  • Hypothesis #1) The termite prefers to travel in a circle.

  • Hypothesis #2) The termite is attracted to the color red.

  • Hypothesis #3) The termite is attracted to a chemical in the ink.

  • Hypothesis #4) The termite is following the indentation in the paper made by the pressure of the pen.


Testing Hypothesis #1


  • Prediction: Using the original red ink pen, a square is drawn, and if the termite simply prefers to travel in circles, then it will not follow the square.

  • Observation: The termite follows the square, though it has a little trouble with the corners at first.

  • Conclusion: The termite does not simply prefer to travel in a circle, and the hypothesis is falsified.


Testing Hypothesis #2

  • Prediction: Using a black ball-point pen, a circle is drawn and if the termite is attracted to the color red, then it will not follow the black circle.

  • Observation: The termite follows the black circle even better than it follows the red circle.

  • Conclusion: The termite is not simply attracted to the color red, and the hypothesis is falsified.


Testing Hypothesis #3
  • Prediction: Using a colored pencil, a circle is drawn and if the termite is attracted to a chemical in the ball-point ink, then it will not follow the circle.

  • Observation: The termite does not follow the circle at all, and basically ignores the circle completely, crossing its path many times.

  • Conclusion: The termite might be attracted to a chemical in the ball-point ink that is not present in a colored pencil, and the hypothesis is supported by the evidence.


Testing Hypothesis #4
  • Prediction: Using the tip of a pen cap, a circle is drawn without making a visible mark, and if the termite does not follow the circle, then it is not simply following the indentation in the paper made by the pressure of the pen.

  • Observation: The termite does not follow the circle at all, and basically ignores the circle completely, crossing its path many times.

  • Conclusion: The termite is not simply following the indentation in the paper made by the pressure of the pen, and the hypothesis is falsified.



At this point, we were fairly confident that we were on the right track. It was time for our break, so Doc passed out little covered petri dishes to each group with pieces of wet paper towels in them. We put Fred and Ginger into our dish, and went for our break. Fred was not looking very good at this point, and seemed to need a rest from all that racing around he'd been doing, so the timing worked out pretty well.

While on break, it occurred to us that we might want to find out exactly what it was in the ink that termites found attractive, but one of the rules to the lab was that we could use anything in the room to test our hypotheses, but nothing else.

Upon returning from break, we asked Doc if we might have another termite, as Fred was looking rather peaked. He happily obliged us, and we tested various other writing implements to observe the behavior of our new termite. Our new termite really zipped around the circle made by Squicky Britches' black bic pen, so we named him Speedy.

It then occurred to us to check another black ball-point, to see if there might be some inks the termites preferred over others. Sure enough, Speedy showed a definite preference for Squicky Britches' bic over my zebra.

Thinking about the ink and the petri dishes, we wondered if the attractive chemical might be just moisture, plain old H2O in the ink.

  • Hypothesis #5) The termite is attracted to the moisture content of the ball-point ink.


Testing Hypothesis #5
  • Prediction: Using the tip of a mechanical pencil dipped in bottled water, a circle is drawn, and if the termite does not follow the circle, it is not simply attracted to the moisture content of the ball-point ink.

  • Observation: The termite does not follow the circle at all, and actually seems to avoid the dampness left on the paper.

  • Conclusion: The termite is not simply attracted to the moisture content of the ball-point ink, and the hypothesis is falsified.



We talked a bit with Doc about our experiment to this point, and he reminded us that we were allowed to use anything in the lab to test our hypothesis further. Looking around, Squicky Britches (who was so wrapped up in termite wrangling at this point that she wasn't squicky at all) noticed the transparency papers that Doc had lying on the other end of the lab table. As a control measure, we drew a fresh circle on fresh paper with Squicky Britches' bic, and retested Speedy on that circle. As expected, he followed the circle without a problem.


Further testing of Hypothesis #3

  • Prediction: When a circle is drawn and the termite is separated from the paper by a transparency film, if the termite follows the circle, then it is not simply attracted to a chemical in the ball-point ink.

  • Observation: After anthor control in which the termite followed a fresh circle directly on a fresh paper, the termite did not follow the same circle when separated from the paper by a sheet of transparency film.

  • Conclusion: The termite might be attracted to a chemical in the ball-point ink, and the hypothesis is still supported by the evidence.


So this was another really fun lab for us to practice our Scientific Method skills. Sadly, I don't think Fred survived it.
     
Quote
From whence came the art:

The first image is of our textbook, Biology, Eighth Edition, by Campbell &amp; Reese et al.


--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 28 2008,18:01   

http://www.tolweb.org/Isoptera

Cute little guys, huh?

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 28 2008,18:21   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Aug. 28 2008,16:03)
So this was another really fun lab for us to practice our Scientific Method skills. Sadly, I don't think Fred survived it.

Crap. I just wrote a $300 check for my annual termite contract and all I needed to do was draw a ballpoint pen line from my house down to the road.    :angry:

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 28 2008,18:49   

Our guys kinda looked like this:



Carlson, yeah, who knew?

It's BigExterma, screwin' us over, keepin' the TRUTH from the PUBLIC!!!11!!!1!!ONE!!!

Editated to complete my scrambled thought.

Edited by Lou FCD on Aug. 28 2008,19:52

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
utidjian



Posts: 185
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 28 2008,20:30   

Lou,

Outstanding series of posts. I haven't taken any regular biology classes since HS (physics major.)

One other test I thought of for your termites might have been:

Hypothesis: Is it the ink alone or an interaction with the ink and the paper.

Prediction: It is the ink alone. Mark out a new circle with the best ink (Squitchy Britches black pen) on the transparency film or on a clean sheet of frosted glass (so the ink will actually adhere.) See if the termite follows the ink.


Thanks again for a great series of posts. I will be watching this thread regularly.

-DU-

--------------
Being laughed at doesn't mean you're progressing along some line. It probably just means you're saying some stupid shit -stevestory

  
bystander



Posts: 301
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 28 2008,20:46   

Leave us hanging!! I wants to know the answer  :angry:

You left out disembodied telic entity pushing the termites around using wormholes in the space time continum.

Which is the correct answer no matter what your mere evidence shows. Teach the controversy !1!!one!!

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 28 2008,21:32   

Quote (utidjian @ Aug. 28 2008,21:30)
Lou,

Outstanding series of posts. I haven't taken any regular biology classes since HS (physics major.)

One other test I thought of for your termites might have been:

Hypothesis: Is it the ink alone or an interaction with the ink and the paper.

Prediction: It is the ink alone. Mark out a new circle with the best ink (Squitchy Britches black pen) on the transparency film or on a clean sheet of frosted glass (so the ink will actually adhere.) See if the termite follows the ink.


Thanks again for a great series of posts. I will be watching this thread regularly.

-DU-

Thanks DU. I'm still working on yesterday's lecture notes, and of course I have the lecture again tomorrow morning...

Hopefully, I'll get caught up by Saturday sometime.

Squicky Britches actually did try writing on the transparency, just as we were supposed to return Fred, Ginger, and Speedy to Doc. (Somehow, there must be a Snow White joke in there somewhere...) She couldn't get the ink to stick though, so we let it go.

Glad you're reading.

 
Quote (bystander @ Aug. 28 2008,21:46)
Leave us hanging!! I wants to know the answer  :angry:

You left out disembodied telic entity pushing the termites around using wormholes in the space time continum.

Which is the correct answer no matter what your mere evidence shows. Teach the controversy !1!!one!!

Yeah, so do we. Nature never told us the answer, and neither did Doc. We're pretty confident in our hypothesis, given the evidence we have in hand.

Of course, a week from Monday, new evidence may come in and refute our hypothesis, in which case we'll look at whether we have to make some adjustments or if we have to scrap it altogether and start down another path.

As my Pop always says, "Some days'll be like that."

For the moment though, we have no evidence of disembodied telic entities, ghosts, or leprechauns pushing the termites around. We're sticking with the substance in the ink hypothesis for the moment.

:)

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Zarquon



Posts: 71
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 28 2008,22:20   

termites and ink

  
qetzal



Posts: 311
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 28 2008,22:24   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Aug. 28 2008,21:32)
For the moment though, we have no evidence of disembodied telic entities, ghosts, or leprechauns pushing the termites around. We're sticking with the substance in the ink hypothesis for the moment.

:)

Maybe you should check for quantum coherence in their microtubules. I'm sure TP can help you with experimental design.  :D

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 28 2008,23:15   

Quote (Zarquon @ Aug. 28 2008,23:20)
termites and ink

HA! iz gud siensy guy!

Can I have my PhD now, or do I have to wait until the end of the semester?

 
Quote (qetzal @ Aug. 28 2008,23:24)
 
Quote (Lou FCD @ Aug. 28 2008,21:32)
For the moment though, we have no evidence of disembodied telic entities, ghosts, or leprechauns pushing the termites around. We're sticking with the substance in the ink hypothesis for the moment.

:)

Maybe you should check for quantum coherence in their microtubules. I'm sure TP can help you with experimental design.  :D

I just don't even want to go there.

:)

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,04:56   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Aug. 29 2008,05:15)
[SNIP]

Can I have my PhD now, or do I have to wait until the end of the semester?

[SNIP]

YOU can have a PhD right now! Be just like Kent Hovind and other famous creationists!

Just mail your cheque for $2000 to my home address, make payable to me, and I will send you a genuine, authenticated PhD certificate from GB* University.

Louis

*Stands for "Gullible Bastard".

--------------
Bye.

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,11:00   

Quote (qetzal @ Aug. 28 2008,22:24)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Aug. 28 2008,21:32)
For the moment though, we have no evidence of disembodied telic entities, ghosts, or leprechauns pushing the termites around. We're sticking with the substance in the ink hypothesis for the moment.

:)

Maybe you should check for quantum coherence in their microtubules. I'm sure TP can help you with experimental design.  :D

Dang it, I was going to suggest the same thing. You gotta be quick here!

Interestingly, the bacterial symbionts in termite guts were the first case where tubulin (and microtubules) were found in prokaryotes. Here's an old  reference from Science. This is one of the bits of evidence for Margulis's endosymbiont hypothesis; cilia and flagella might have arisen from prokaryotic endosymbionts that were like modern spirochetes.

Perhaps TP can tell us if the prokaryotic microtubules and the termite microtubules exhibit quantum properties...

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 29 2008,11:57   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Aug. 29 2008,12:00)
Quote (qetzal @ Aug. 28 2008,22:24)
 
Quote (Lou FCD @ Aug. 28 2008,21:32)
For the moment though, we have no evidence of disembodied telic entities, ghosts, or leprechauns pushing the termites around. We're sticking with the substance in the ink hypothesis for the moment.

:)

Maybe you should check for quantum coherence in their microtubules. I'm sure TP can help you with experimental design.  :D

Dang it, I was going to suggest the same thing. You gotta be quick here!

Interestingly, the bacterial symbionts in termite guts were the first case where tubulin (and microtubules) were found in prokaryotes. Here's an old  reference from Science. This is one of the bits of evidence for Margulis's endosymbiont hypothesis; cilia and flagella might have arisen from prokaryotic endosymbionts that were like modern spirochetes.

Perhaps TP can tell us if the prokaryotic microtubules and the termite microtubules exhibit quantum properties...

Yeah, I learned way too much about termite guts reading Margulis' Symbiosis in Cell Evolution but the tubulin hypothesis never caught on the way mitochodria and chloroplasts did. Now if flagella had their own DNA...

--------------
I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1776
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2008,13:00   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Aug. 28 2008,18:49)
Our guys kinda looked like this:



Carlson, yeah, who knew?

It's BigExterma, screwin' us over, keepin' the TRUTH from the PUBLIC!!!11!!!1!!ONE!!!

Editated to complete my scrambled thought.

I like this thread for many reasons.

1) Your enthusiasm is evident.
2) You have got me reading my Campbell Reece BIOLOGY Sixth Edition again.
3) Doing a writeup here will help you (and possibly me) in understanding the book.

As to learning tips. I have not heard he writeup one before but it sounds damned good. Here is one I came to late in life: Pre-read lessons, highlight what you do not understand. If you still do not understand when it is covered in class, ask questions until you do.

For me: I find it hard just to remember facts (but I am sure the re-writing would help), if I understand the process I tend to remember better.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2008,19:15   



My notes and thoughts from Biology 111, for Wednesday, August 27, 2008. The entire series can be found here.

Wednesday's lecture began with a review of atomic structure, including a reminder that our e- * diagrams are 2D representations of 3D space.

Then we moved on to some more basic chemistry.

We focused mostly on electrons, and will continue to, as electrons are what determines reactivity of an atom, and reactivity is what's really vital to biology.

e- orbits are called e- shells or energy levels. Each e- orbital can hold up to 2 e-.

The first energy level has one orbital, because it's so small, and electrons, having all the same negative electrical charge, repel each other.

The second and third energy levels each contain 4 orbitals, each energy level then is capable of holding 8 e- (2 e- in each orbital).

Then doc talked about how electrons fill from the innermost energy level, out.

e- contain Potential Energy due to location or structure.

Potential Energy is energy stored up that can be used to do work. For instance, because our lecture room is on the second floor, I have more potential energy than the student just below me on the first floor. Should a hole open up under my seat, I would fall down, releasing that potential energy as kinetic energy. That energy would be doing work, like breaking the table below me, breaking my bones, or with a water wheel type contraption the energy released by my falling could be used to produce electricity.

Now, in order to get that potential energy, I had to walk up the steps, doing work, trading kinetic energy for potential energy. So to get energy out, I first had to put energy in.

Remembering that the potential energy in my body on the second floor is caused by my distance from the center of gravity of the planet, likewise the potential energy of an electron is caused by its distance from the nucleus of an atom (though the force involved here would be electromagnetism rather than gravity). The further from the nucleus an e- is, the more potential energy it has.

e- must be in an orbital. They don't free range within the atom, and they tend towards the lowest energy level in which they can squeeze. Changing orbitals requires a change in energy. Energy into an electron causes the electron to move into higher energy levels, and energy released from an electron causes the electron to move to lower energy levels. This is often denoted by ?E, pronounced "delta E".

Doc used the example of sugar. Where does the energy we get from sugar come from? Ultimately, the sun imparts the energy to the plant via the leaves. Sunlight strikes the leaves of the sugarcane plant causing an excitement of electrons, and the plant stores that energy as potential energy. When we eat the sugar, our bodies change that back into kinetic energy, giving us a sugar rush. Thus in the end, we are eating sunlight.

So before we go any further with the notes, let's take a look at the elements we're discussing. In biology, most of the elements we're going discuss are going to be found within the first 18 elements on the periodic table. Let's have the standard periodic table, with those elements highlighted. (The original table here is from the National Institute of Standards and Technology, NIST. The electron distribution table is from a scan of page 36 in our textbook. I have put the two images together to help visualize the sections of the periodic table that we'll be discussing.)



Next up, we talked about orbitals, arrangement of electrons in those orbitals at different energy levels, and the notation we use to describe all that. The remainder of this discussion will reference this electron distribution diagram, found on page 36 of our textbook (at my blog, you can click for a larger version, hosted at my Flickr account):



Let's look now at a few elements on this chart. The obvious place to start is at the beginning, so we'll start with Hydrogen.



In this image, I've highlighted Hydrogen (H). A hydrogen atom consists of one e- and one p+. There are no neutrons in the nucleus of a stable hydrogen atom. The single electron travels in the orbit described. For our purposes, we're going to ignore the nucleus for the time being. In this notation, we're mostly concerned with electrons and their orbits.



Comparing that to Helium (He), we see that in this notation, we're not going to separate the electrons on opposite sides of the atom as they physically would tend to be, we're just noting that there are two e- in this orbit. Atoms in the same row on the periodic table have the same number of shells, and in the first electron shell, there is one orbit. Each orbit will hold up to two e-. It's easy to think of this first shell as being so small that the charge of the e- (which repel each other) are just so close that they won't allow any more electrons in the vicinity.

Further out, in larger shells, each shell will consist of four orbits, but again, each orbit can only hold 2 e-. The outer e- shell of a given atom is referred to as the valence shell. The number of e- in the valence shell is of utmost importance to chemical reactions, and thus to biology.



In the second row then, we would expect to find two e- shells, and indeed, here is Lithium (Li). Notice that Li has the inner shell full (2 e-) and then begins to work on the next shell, with its third e-. Electrons always fill out the shells from the inside out, from closest to the nucleus, to furthest from the nucleus.



Remember that except for the innermost one, e- shells each contain four e- orbits, and each orbit holds two e-. Now, each of those orbits in a shell will take on e- before any of them will take a second e-. Thus the notation for Beryllium shows a second electron in the valence shell, but in a separate orbit from the first e-.



Boron (B) takes a third e-, in a third orbit of the second shell, and then we come to Carbon ( C ). Carbon has four valence e-, one in each orbit of the valence shell. Each of the four e- orbits of the valence shell now has a single electron.



The next element, Nitrogen (N), has five valence e-, and the fifth one can now go in the first orbit of the valence shell, since each orbit in the shell now has one electron.



Predictably, Oxygen then takes a sixth e- in the valence shell (for a total of 8 e-) and it goes in the second orbit.



At this point a patterns should be emerging. Notice that in the first column, all the elements have one valence e-, in the second they all have two, etc.



In the eighth column, all the elements have 8 valence e- (except He), meaning that their valence shells are full. The elements in this column are referred to as the Noble Gases, or the Inert Gases. Elements with full valence shells are non-reactive. They are happy with the number of e- they have, and tend not to interact with other elements.

Atoms are most stable when they have NO unpaired electrons. Natural things tend toward their most stable state. A stack of bricks is less stable than those same bricks all flat on the ground. Likewise, elements tend towards having full valence shells.

We can say then that the reactivity of an atom depends on the number of unpaired valence e-. This becomes very important for biological chemistry.

Now that we had a good idea about valence e-, we could take that information and apply it.

Chemical Bonds

We began our discussion of chemical bonds with the first type, which is called Covalent Bonding.

There are a couple ways for atoms to find e- to fill up their valence shells. They can steal one from another atom (called ionic bonding, discussed in the next lecture). But like in life, bigger atoms are better at this than small atoms. To quote Doc directly,

   
Quote
"If you want to be successful at taking something from someone else, you had better be bigger than them, or they will whoop your ass and take it back. Hydrogen is the smallest atom, so it will always be the whoopee, not the whooper."


So hydrogen goes a different route. It shares electrons. This is called a covalent bond.



In this fashion, two hydrogen atoms can each fill their valence shell (they each now have two e- in the valence shell). They are sharing a single pair of electrons, so this is a single bond.

We can write this in a number of ways.

There is the molecular formula

H2

The structural formula

H-H

and the Lewis Dot diagram

H:H



Oxygen, having two spots to fill in its valence shell, will share two pairs of electrons, and Nitrogen, 3. In the quick sketch I did above (forgive the lack of neatness there...), the molecular notation, the structural notation, and the Lewis Dot Diagram are given for Oxygen and Nitrogen, the two most abundant elements in the air we breathe.

The lecture ended there. On Friday, we discussed electronegativity. I'll get those notes up (hopefully) by tomorrow.

* remembering our shorthand, e- means electron, p+ is for proton, and n is for neutron.
   
Quote
From whence came the art:

The first image is of our textbook, Biology, Eighth Edition, by Campbell &amp; Reese et al. The electron distribution table is from page 36 of that textbook, and I have highlighted portions of it in the various images above to assist in visualization.

The Periodic Table of the Elements is from the National Institute of Standards and Technology, NIST.


Edited to clean up a butchered sentence.

Edited by Lou FCD on Aug. 30 2008,21:53

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2008,19:16   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Aug. 30 2008,14:00)
I like this thread for many reasons.

1) Your enthusiasm is evident.
2) You have got me reading my Campbell Reece BIOLOGY Sixth Edition again.
3) Doing a writeup here will help you (and possibly me) in understanding the book.

As to learning tips. I have not heard he writeup one before but it sounds damned good. Here is one I came to late in life: Pre-read lessons, highlight what you do not understand. If you still do not understand when it is covered in class, ask questions until you do.

For me: I find it hard just to remember facts (but I am sure the re-writing would help), if I understand the process I tend to remember better.

Thanks Stephen.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2008,20:09   

Lou

I think that your understanding of the basic material may be better than some of my students.  Here is an email, rec'd tonight, from a student in my intro bio class. The name is withheld to protect the innocent...
 
Quote
I was reading the textbook and I am now confused.

On page 4, it defines Atoms as "...the fundamental building blocks of all substances, living and non-living."
Then on page 22, it goes on to say that ... "Atoms differ in the number of subatomic particles, but all have a nucleus..."
--- Back on page 8, it told me that bacteria & archaea are single-celled organisms, but that they are prokaryotic, meaning that they have no nucleus..
..Farther back still, on page four, it says in short : atoms join together to make molecules, and molecules (become organized into?) make cells...

So as I said I am confused.  Is the textbook saying that some molecules are formed without atoms?  If so, what are they made of?

..Or is page 22 incorrect about all atoms having nuclei or is there something else ?

Thanks for clearing this up


--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2008,20:41   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Aug. 30 2008,21:09)
Lou

I think that your understanding of the basic material may be better than some of my students.  Here is an email, rec'd tonight, from a student in my intro bio class. The name is withheld to protect the innocent...
 
Quote
I was reading the textbook and I am now confused.

On page 4, it defines Atoms as "...the fundamental building blocks of all substances, living and non-living."
Then on page 22, it goes on to say that ... "Atoms differ in the number of subatomic particles, but all have a nucleus..."
--- Back on page 8, it told me that bacteria & archaea are single-celled organisms, but that they are prokaryotic, meaning that they have no nucleus..
..Farther back still, on page four, it says in short : atoms join together to make molecules, and molecules (become organized into?) make cells...

So as I said I am confused.  Is the textbook saying that some molecules are formed without atoms?  If so, what are they made of?

..Or is page 22 incorrect about all atoms having nuclei or is there something else ?

Thanks for clearing this up

*headdesk*

LoL, thanks for the chuckle.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 30 2008,21:35   

Chemistry atomic nucleus != Biological cell nucleus !!

:p

I suppose though that somebody first learning two different fields at once could get confused when those two fields use one of the same words but for different things.

Henry

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2008,04:23   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Aug. 31 2008,02:09)
Lou

I think that your understanding of the basic material may be better than some of my students.  Here is an email, rec'd tonight, from a student in my intro bio class. The name is withheld to protect the innocent...
 
Quote
I was reading the textbook and I am now confused.

On page 4, it defines Atoms as "...the fundamental building blocks of all substances, living and non-living."
Then on page 22, it goes on to say that ... "Atoms differ in the number of subatomic particles, but all have a nucleus..."
--- Back on page 8, it told me that bacteria & archaea are single-celled organisms, but that they are prokaryotic, meaning that they have no nucleus..
..Farther back still, on page four, it says in short : atoms join together to make molecules, and molecules (become organized into?) make cells...

So as I said I am confused.  Is the textbook saying that some molecules are formed without atoms?  If so, what are they made of?

..Or is page 22 incorrect about all atoms having nuclei or is there something else ?

Thanks for clearing this up

{Blinks}

{Cries}

{Sound of Louis' heart breaking}

Wow...just wow.

Look, I don't want to come over all elitist or anything but the concept of an atomic nucleus and the concept of a biological nucleus were things I understood before I went through puberty. This might explain a few things dammit! On the other hand it might not! ;-)

It's really hard to think back to a time where the concept of an atom (for example) was not something I understood to some useful degree. So whilst I might come across as unsympathetic to this student (and others), believe me I'm not, I just NOW have a hard time intuitively, initially, grasping the "before atom" thinking, my failing, not the student's. I think it's a little terrifying that a college freshman doesn't have that understanding tucked away, but that aside, whoa!

Lou, you seem to be going through the "Bohr atom"/basic idea of orbitals and bonding stuff atm. Have they mentioned s orbitals/p orbitals etc yet? Pauli exclusion principle etc? If not, I hope you get to learn about it because it will make better sense of some of the questions I'll bet you have about atoms/molecules when presented with the "Bohr atom" version. Any chem help or conversation you desire, I'm happy to help with.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2008,06:13   

This raises the distinct possibility that George W. believes that Nuke-U-Lar weapons of which he has control are packed with eukaryotes.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2008,06:52   

Quote (Henry J @ Aug. 30 2008,21:35)
Chemistry atomic nucleus != Biological cell nucleus !!

:p

I suppose though that somebody first learning two different fields at once could get confused when those two fields use one of the same words but for different things.

Henry

Yeah, I am used to these cases where a word, as used in biology, needs to be distinguished from the usage of the same word in everyday parlance (e.g. fitness). This is the first time that I have had a student get confused about a word which you really only encounter in science!

The sad part is that college prep tracks in KS high schools have a year of chemistry and a year of biology. Either this student did not graduate from a KS high school, or some school someplace is doing a truly wretched job of evaluating the learning of their students. Or both...

Anyhoo, I did have to wait a bit before replying, just to staunch the bleeding from the site where my head hit the desk a few times. Here's what I wrote back  
Quote
It seems that your confusion comes about because the word "nucleus" is used for two different things, in two different fields (biology & chemistry).

The word "nucleus" comes from a Latin root meaning core, center, or kernel, The word "nut" comes from the same root.
In chemistry the nucleus of an atom is the core, consisting of protons and neutrons, around which the electrons orbit.

In biology the nucleus of a cell is the highly organized DNA-containing center of a eukaryotic cell, which is visible in a light microscope. Prokaryotes also have DNA, but it is not as organized, and is not visible in a light microscope.

So the word means a different thing in these two different contexts. I'm sorry that is the case, but sometimes biologists and chemists can use the same word to mean different things. In fact, even in astronomy the word means something else. The "nucleus" of a comet is the central core of that structure as well.

hope this helps

See, I'm not a mean atheistic professor all the time  :)

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1776
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2008,07:18   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Aug. 30 2008,20:09)
Lou

I think that your understanding of the basic material may be better than some of my students.  Here is an email, rec'd tonight, from a student in my intro bio class. The name is withheld to protect the innocent...
 
Quote
I was reading the textbook and I am now confused.

On page 4, it defines Atoms as "...the fundamental building blocks of all substances, living and non-living."
Then on page 22, it goes on to say that ... "Atoms differ in the number of subatomic particles, but all have a nucleus..."
--- Back on page 8, it told me that bacteria & archaea are single-celled organisms, but that they are prokaryotic, meaning that they have no nucleus..
..Farther back still, on page four, it says in short : atoms join together to make molecules, and molecules (become organized into?) make cells...

So as I said I am confused.  Is the textbook saying that some molecules are formed without atoms?  If so, what are they made of?

..Or is page 22 incorrect about all atoms having nuclei or is there something else ?

Thanks for clearing this up

I know that I shouldn't, but I do laugh. Although it is sad, it is also kinda funny that we are becoming more stupid.

Actually it isn't. It is damned wrong that pupils are getting less educated at the same time that the sum of human knowledge is increasing.

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2008,07:54   

No way I wasn't aware of this distinction by some time in elementary school.

Your student's question reflects an astonishing and dismaying level of ignorance. Period.

If this is at all typical we are in real trouble.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2008,09:26   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Aug. 31 2008,07:54)
No way I wasn't aware of this distinction by some time in elementary school.

Your student's question reflects an astonishing and dismaying level of ignorance. Period.

If this is at all typical we are in real trouble.

Thankfully it is not typical; I ported it over here because it was, in my 10+ years coordinating our intro course, unique.

Frankly I wondered for a bit if the student was just kidding me. But I figured I had to answer it just in case it was a serious question. I think it was...

Is there a corollary to Poe's Law for college students?

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
csadams



Posts: 124
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2008,09:43   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Aug. 31 2008,06:52)
The sad part is that college prep tracks in KS high schools have a year of chemistry and a year of biology. Either this student did not graduate from a KS high school, or some school someplace is doing a truly wretched job of evaluating the learning of their students. Or both...

. . . or some KS schools have mis-labeled courses as "chemistry" or "physics" for purposes of Qualified Admission, when in fact they're general physical science courses geared toward prepping students for the KS state assessments.

If a KS high school graduate hasn't completed the Regents college prep track, the student can still enter a state university with an ACT composite >= 21.  Or the student can graduate in the top one-third of their high school class and be admitted to a state university.

Alb, I'm not sure how the QA requirements have helped get more students ready for college, with the requirements being so low.  But if(when?) your science-impaired students hail from out my way, let me know and I'll get right on it . . .

*********************
Lou - wow!  What an experience you're getting!  You might think about checking out some summer workshops out your way.  GLOBE has a lot going on in Hampton, VA; essentially, you get paid to learn.  How sweet is that??

--------------
Stand Up For REAL Science!

  
Lou FCD



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2008,09:47   

Quote (Louis @ Aug. 31 2008,05:23)
Lou, you seem to be going through the "Bohr atom"/basic idea of orbitals and bonding stuff atm. Have they mentioned s orbitals/p orbitals etc yet? Pauli exclusion principle etc? If not, I hope you get to learn about it because it will make better sense of some of the questions I'll bet you have about atoms/molecules when presented with the "Bohr atom" version. Any chem help or conversation you desire, I'm happy to help with.

Louis

Thanks Louis. If I have any questions, it's good to know I have back-up I can call on. I really appreciate having all you guys standing by.

The p shells and s shells are on deck, in the next section of this chapter of our book.  I imagine we'll get to them on Wednesday (Monday is a holiday here).

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2008,09:49   

Quote (csadams @ Aug. 31 2008,10:43)
Lou - wow!  What an experience you're getting!  You might think about checking out some summer workshops out your way.  GLOBE has a lot going on in Hampton, VA; essentially, you get paid to learn.  How sweet is that??

Hey awesome! Getting paid to learn can't be anything but good.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 31 2008,19:09   

Quote
Have they mentioned s orbitals/p orbitals etc yet?


Didn't sound like it. I thought about mentioning that in the transition metals the electrons are added in the next to highest shell instead of the highest, but decided to wait to see if that was the next chapter. (Also in the "rare earths" the new electrons are added to the second shell from the top.) It's because those orbital have the next higher energy level, and additions are made to the lowest still empty energy level, even when that's not the top shell. It's also why the transition metals aren't overly different from each other chemically - their outer shells are all 1 or 2 electrons (with 1 (or is it 2?) exceptions where the "outermost" shell is actually empty).

Henry

  
Henry J



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2008,19:21   

Addendum to my previous post: it's Palladium, symbol Pd, atomic number 46, that has no electrons in its "outermost" (5th) shell.

Henry

  
Lou FCD



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2008,20:58   

Quote (Henry J @ Sep. 01 2008,20:21)
Addendum to my previous post: it's Palladium, symbol Pd, atomic number 46, that has no electrons in its "outermost" (5th) shell.

Henry

Now you're just trying to confuse me, Henry.

Besides, I don't care 'bout no damned Palawhocaresium because it's not in the first 18 elements and is currently irrelevant to the material.

Now stop trying to screw up my head with your materialist trans-Argon nonsense!

:)

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Henry J



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Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2008,21:07   

I just thought of something else. Some biological species have lost traits considered normal for members of the containing clade. So palladium is sort of analogous: it's to the periodic table what those species are to their clades.

Henry

  
Henry J



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Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 01 2008,21:08   

Quote
Now stop trying to screw up my head with your materialist trans-Argon nonsense!


Name a non-materialistic element! :p

Henry

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,06:21   

Quote (Henry J @ Sep. 02 2008,03:08)
Quote
Now stop trying to screw up my head with your materialist trans-Argon nonsense!


Name a non-materialistic element! :p

Henry

Narativium? Terry Pratchett's element of fiction.

Randomium? An element very useful for "explaining" why some reaction has or hasn't worked.

Crossfingersandhopelikehellium? An element in the same group as Randomium. Principle component of dusty crap that desperate students leave/place in flasks of reactions that repeatedly fail in the vain hope that some hitherto unheard of catalytic effect occurs. Not to be confused with molecular sieves or solid state catalysis.

Technecium? Well, it was made (up).

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
dogdidit



Posts: 315
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,07:42   

Unobtainium has many popular uses in engineering.

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"Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

  
dogdidit



Posts: 315
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,07:50   

Quote (Henry J @ Aug. 31 2008,19:09)
 
Quote
Have they mentioned s orbitals/p orbitals etc yet?


Didn't sound like it. I thought about mentioning that in the transition metals the electrons are added in the next to highest shell instead of the highest, but decided to wait to see if that was the next chapter. (Also in the "rare earths" the new electrons are added to the second shell from the top.) It's because those orbital have the next higher energy level, and additions are made to the lowest still empty energy level, even when that's not the top shell. It's also why the transition metals aren't overly different from each other chemically - their outer shells are all 1 or 2 electrons (with 1 (or is it 2?) exceptions where the "outermost" shell is actually empty).

Henry

SPDF!! I thought I had succeeded in forgetting all that. Thanks for nothing.

I'd imagine Reese and Campbell would cover just enough QM to understanding the how's and why's of chemical bonding, but never haven studied biology I am ignorant of just how much QM and chemistry foundation would be needed. Certainly an understanding of bonding energy would be important.

I've been eyeing up Lou's textbook; would all agree it's a pretty good choice for an autodidact self-learner?

--------------
"Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,08:11   

Quote (dogdidit @ Sep. 02 2008,07:50)
I've been eyeing up Lou's textbook; would all agree it's a pretty good choice for an autodidact self-learner?

Campbell et al. is a good textbook; there are a number of good textbooks in introductory biology.

I have been reviewing intro bio textbooks for a number of years. IMHO the best one (and it may be out of print) is Burt Guttman's Biology (McGraw Hill). It is a comprehensive tome, written in an engaging style, and very suitable for auto-didactery. Burt taught for many years at Evergreen College in Olympia WA, and is by all accounts an excellent teacher. He is also a good birder, so he has many useful talents :-)

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,14:18   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 02 2008,05:21)
Randomium? An element very useful for "explaining" why some reaction has or hasn't worked.

Is that related to randomonium?

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,14:45   

Quote (Henry J @ Sep. 02 2008,20:18)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 02 2008,05:21)
Randomium? An element very useful for "explaining" why some reaction has or hasn't worked.

Is that related to randomonium?

One period above, two above pandemonium.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,15:33   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 02 2008,14:45)
Quote (Henry J @ Sep. 02 2008,20:18)
 
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 02 2008,05:21)
Randomium? An element very useful for "explaining" why some reaction has or hasn't worked.

Is that related to randomonium?

One period above, two above pandemonium.

Louis

Pfft. More like "Bolognium." Wretched Brits.

BTW: MY GENES R NUKULAR!!

--------------
AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,19:31   



My notes and thoughts from Biology 111, for Friday, August 29, 2008. The entire series can be found here.

Forgive the delay, but I've had a ton of stuff to work on.

On Friday, we started out with a review of covalent bonding. Doc re-stressed that in covalent bonding, atoms are sharing one or more pairs of electrons.

Let's take another look at our covalent bonding notation:



Now note that the two Oxygens share two pairs of e- and the two Nitrogens share three pairs of e-, as noted by the lines and by the dots between them. Also note that in the Lewis Dot diagram, all valence e- are depicted, regardless of whether they are involved in the bonding.

Let's throw some more elements together with covalent bonds:



And to really point out the sharing, I've circled and colored to highlight which e- belong to which element:


In this diagram, we can now really see that each element now has a full valence shell, by sharing e- part time with its neighbor.

Electronegativity

Electronegativity can be defined as the ability of an atom to attract e- to itself when in a compound.

Ignoring the Noble Gases (because they have full valence shells and don't tend to interact with other elements), we can roughly divide our Electron Distribution diagram into three parts. To the left side of the diagram we have elements that are very electropositive. It's much easier for them to lose a few e- to wind up with a full valence shell than to grab six or seven e- from somewhere else.  In the center, elements are electroneutral, where they can sort of go either way. To the right of the diagram, are the electronegative elements, which only need an e- or two to fill their valence shell, and thus are more likely to take than to give.

This becomes important especially when we start discussing ionic bonds.

So if atoms are fairly close in terms of elelectronegativity, they will tend to share e- equally, and there is an even distribution of charge around the molecule. We call that a nonpolar colvalent bond.

If the atoms are further apart in terms of electronegativity, the more electronegative atom will tend to pull the shared e- more towards itself, and the distribution of charge around the molecule will have a very slight uneveness to it. We call that a polar covalent bond.



Water is a good example of a polar covalent bond. Because the Oxygen atom is highly electronegative and the Hydrogen atoms are very electropositive, the shared e- spend more time around the oxygen atom than the hydrogen atoms. Although the molecule maintains a net charge of zero (10 p+ and 10 e- in total), it does have a very slight negative charge on the Oxygen end and a very slight positive charge on the Hydrogen ends. That charge is denoted with the lower case Greek letter delta (?). Note that the atoms of a water molecule do not line up in a straight line like the atoms of a Carbon Dioxide molecule.

Ionic Bonds

Attraction between a cation and an anion.

Ionic bonds form when the difference in electronegativity between two atoms is great.



Sodium, for instance, is very electropositive, being way over on the left side of the diagram and having only one e- in its valence shell.



Chlorine is very electronegative, being way over on the right side of the diagram and having seven e- in its valence shell.



Sodium and Chlorine, side by side for a good look.



When they get together, Chlorine doesn't share an e- with Sodium, it steals one completely. This of course upsets the normal balance of an atom, where it usually has the same number of p+ and e-. When this happens, the atom becomes an ion. Because the Sodium ion has one fewer e- (10) than it has p+(11), it now has a net charge of +1, and it's called a cation. The Chlorine ion has one more e- (18) than it has p+(17) , so it has a net charge of -1 and is called an anion.

Remember that opposite charges attract each other. The Chlorine anion will now attract the Sodium cation, and they will form an ionic bond. This is not actually a molecule, but rather an ionic compound. Bonds only form molecules through covalent bonds.

Chapter 3

Water and the Fitness of the Environment

Water has several emergent properties that make it essential for life on Earth.

Hydrogen Bonds



Water is a polar molecule, and can form Hydrogen Bonds. That very slight polarity we mentioned earlier now becomes very important, as we begin discussing how water molecules attract each other, with what's known as Hydrogen Bonding.

This is where the lecture left off, to be continued on Wednesday, 3 September.
 
Quote
From whence came the art:

The first image is of our textbook, Biology, Eighth Edition, by Campbell & Reese et al. The electron distribution table is from page 36 of that textbook, and I have highlighted portions of it in the various images above to assist in visualization.

The Periodic Table of the Elements is from the National Institute of Standards and Technology, NIST.

Other images by me and are licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution- NonCommercial- Share Alike 3.0 License.


Edited by Lou FCD on Sep. 02 2008,22:10

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,22:37   

Quote
When they get together, Chlorine doesn't share an e- with Sodium, it steals one completely.


THIEF! Somebody call the copper! Otherwise those ions might a salt somebody.

Henry

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,22:41   

Chemistry puns. You're like a high-brow version of my Dad!

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,23:40   

I wonder if that's good or bad?

Henry

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2008,23:45   

Quote (Henry J @ Sep. 02 2008,23:40)
I wonder if that's good or bad?

Henry

It would make you a genetic precursor to me.

I can think of no worse insult!

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,06:13   

Quote (dogdidit @ Sep. 02 2008,07:50)
I've been eyeing up Lou's textbook; would all agree it's a pretty good choice for an autodidact self-learner?

I won't say per definition. I've been discussing with someone over ID and evolution for about a year now. The guy also has read Biology from Campbell and calls himself an auto-didact, but if you see him talk about evolution and all the subjects around it... Imo, you should always keep some experts on the field around to clearify things. Especially with things like biology and evolution, which include so many other subjects (nuclear physics for example) and the sometimes necessary backgrounds, it's incredibly difficult to teach yourself. But still, I can recommend Campbell. It helped me understand a lot of stuff about various subjects.

PS: I'de like to thank Lou for this 'blog'. Because of this, I can make better notes during class and see the value of typing them over. It will really help me getting my Bachelor ;)

  
dogdidit



Posts: 315
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,07:41   

Quote (Assassinator @ Sep. 03 2008,06:13)
     
Quote (dogdidit @ Sep. 02 2008,07:50)
I've been eyeing up Lou's textbook; would all agree it's a pretty good choice for an autodidact self-learner?

I won't say per definition. I've been discussing with someone over ID and evolution for about a year now. The guy also has read Biology from Campbell and calls himself an auto-didact, but if you see him talk about evolution and all the subjects around it... Imo, you should always keep some experts on the field around to clearify things. Especially with things like biology and evolution, which include so many other subjects (nuclear physics for example) and the sometimes necessary backgrounds, it's incredibly difficult to teach yourself.

A valid point. Truth to tell, unless I intend to work in the field (and I don't) there is really not much chance of me reaching the level of understanding of even a bachelor's degree candidate. Books are fine but the social transactions of mentoring relationships (starting with professor-student and going on from there...and lasting a lifetime) are absolutely essential. That is partly why I struck out "autodidact"; this is not at all the same as picking up a manual on LISP or perl and banging out some code, and even in engineering there is essential knowledge that can only be gained with the help and guidance of mentors. Not everything is written down in books. And the relative importance of all that is written is not always evident.

What I am looking for is a deeper undertanding that what can be gained from reading books written for the lay public. I can withstand a higher level of technical detail. Engineering is not much help but I do have a Physics bachelors that I dust off from time to time. The fundamentals never change; that's why they are called...well, you get the idea.

 
Quote
But still, I can recommend Campbell. It helped me understand a lot of stuff about various subjects.
Dank u wel, Assassinator!

ETA: Thank you Albie as well for your recommendations.

--------------
"Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

  
dogdidit



Posts: 315
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,07:48   

BTW Lou, if you want to master the elements of the periodic table, I highly recommend a mnemonic.

--------------
"Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

  
Paul Flocken



Posts: 290
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,08:57   

Quote (bystander @ Aug. 28 2008,21:46)
Leave us hanging!! I wants to know the answer  :angry:

You left out disembodied telic entity pushing the termites around using wormholes in the space time continum.

Which is the correct answer no matter what your mere evidence shows. Teach the controversy !1!!one!!

I think the zero energy photons have more to do with it than the wormholes.  :p

--------------
"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie--deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.  Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."-John F. Kennedy

  
Paul Flocken



Posts: 290
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,09:11   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 02 2008,07:21)
Quote (Henry J @ Sep. 02 2008,03:08)
Quote
Now stop trying to screw up my head with your materialist trans-Argon nonsense!


Name a non-materialistic element! :p

Henry

Narativium? Terry Pratchett's element of fiction.

Randomium? An element very useful for "explaining" why some reaction has or hasn't worked.

Crossfingersandhopelikehellium? An element in the same group as Randomium. Principle component of dusty crap that desperate students leave/place in flasks of reactions that repeatedly fail in the vain hope that some hitherto unheard of catalytic effect occurs. Not to be confused with molecular sieves or solid state catalysis.

Technecium? Well, it was made (up).

Louis

Tardium-The most essential element for the synthesis of tard in creationist brains.  The most common source of tardium is family bibles.

--------------
"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie--deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.  Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."-John F. Kennedy

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,09:32   

i can haz kwiz 2day.

I think I got them all, but I have a question about it regarding the Lewis Dot Diagram of a double covalent bond between N and H on the end of a molecule.

Wouldn't that put four e- in the H's valence shell? (There was a similar situation where an H was single bonded between two C atoms.)

I'll diagram it if that's not clear.



Edited to add image. We were given a molecule something like the first structural diagram, and required to draw the Lewis Dot Diagram.

Wouldn't this suggest too many e- in the valence shell of the circled Hydrogen?  (4)

Edited again to fix an unrelated issue with the diagram.

Edited by Lou FCD on Sep. 03 2008,11:03

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,10:03   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 03 2008,15:32)
i can haz kwiz 2day.

I think I got them all, but I have a question about it regarding the Lewis Dot Diagram of a double covalent bond between N and H on the end of a molecule.

Wouldn't that put four e- in the H's valence shell? (There was a similar situation where an H was single bonded between two C atoms.)

I'll diagram it if that's not clear.



Edited to add image. We were given a molecule something like the first structural diagram, and required to draw the Lewis Dot Diagram.

Wouldn't this suggest too many e- in the valence shell of the circled Hydrogen?  (4)

Something is very askew with that diagram.

If you consider that diagram to be an H bond between two molecules, it seems to be an interaction between a carbene derived from ethane and formaldehyde under basic conditions. My guess is something else is going on!

You've mentioned a nitrogen in the molecule, redraw that interaction, 'cos there ain't no N in there!

My guess is you have the diagram wrong.

The C-H single bond is sufficiently polar (you've mentioned electronegativity already) to be coordinated by a metal, iron complexes with pentane spring to mind, but my guess is that at the level of chem you are doing this is way off topic.  I'm guessing they haven't introduced you to carbenes and deprotonated formaldehyde yet! (And they don't interact like then when they do!)

So your instinct is right, 4 electrons around an H atom indicates a big no no. (Standard caveats about obscure excited states apply, none of which are relevant to basic theories of bonding).

The 4 valent hydrogen means check your diagrams, 'cos they ain't the accurate banana.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Lou FCD



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,10:10   

ah give me a few. I forgot they were straight out of the book. I have them in front of me and I'll give you the exact problem.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,10:26   

Ok, here's the actual question and what I did with it, which doesn't seem right, but given that the bonds are supposed to represent pairs of e-, I don't what what else I could have done with it.



--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,10:40   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 03 2008,10:26)
Ok, here's the actual question and what I did with it, which doesn't seem right, but given that the bonds are supposed to represent pairs of e-, I don't what what else I could have done with it.


Well, I'm no chemist (nor do I play one on TV), but any diagram that has a hydrogen making two bonds with two different carbons is not depicting a real molecule...

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,10:40   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 03 2008,11:26)
Ok, here's the actual question and what I did with it, which doesn't seem right, but given that the bonds are supposed to represent pairs of e-, I don't what what else I could have done with it.


Nevermind. I read the instructions on the quiz paper but not the ones in the book, which gave the option of saying it was nonsensical.

Damnit.

Same goes for the N question.

RTFB!

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,11:08   

I are lernin!

keep the posts coming.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,11:27   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 03 2008,12:08)
I are lernin!

keep the posts coming.

If I don't learn to read the instructions, Rich, you might want to carefully reconsider that request.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,11:29   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 03 2008,16:40)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 03 2008,11:26)
Ok, here's the actual question and what I did with it, which doesn't seem right, but given that the bonds are supposed to represent pairs of e-, I don't what what else I could have done with it.


Nevermind. I read the instructions on the quiz paper but not the ones in the book, which gave the option of saying it was nonsensical.

Damnit.

Same goes for the N question.

RTFB!

Look up the term "agostic". It's a word used in organometallic chem (mostly).

The chances of an agostic hydrogen bridging two uncomplexed, uncharged carbon based molecules........unlikely. Comes back to electronegativity again. The polarity of those bonds isn't sufficient to make the formal bond being shown there. If you're talking about hydrogen bonds the sure, they can and do happen, but representing them as "formal" covalent 2 electron bonds is not representing them as they really are. Even a dative bond is more "formal" than a hydrogen bond (H-bonds are really through space interactions of dipoles).

That diagram is not precisely nonsensical, but it IS nonsensical given the information you have been given. Like I said, unless you are dealing with (obscure) high energy states and weird gas state bonding modes, you're not dealing with something "real".

For given values of the word "real"! :-)

Yeah that was helpful Louis!

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,11:34   



--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,11:34   

I will translate that last post into sensiblese when I am a) not off work for the day, b) not drunk, c) not 2 hours away from my friend's wedding rehearsal, d) not drunk, e) not waiting for a cab, and f) not drunk.

There may be a recurring theme.

Well there is when I can spell "theme" the first time.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,11:37   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 03 2008,11:27)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 03 2008,12:08)
I are lernin!

keep the posts coming.

If I don't learn to read the instructions, Rich, you might want to carefully reconsider that request.

Reading the instructions, like asking for directions, is the domain of the female. Those that say you can't put a square peg through a round hole have not witnessed the brute force and ignorance school of inquiry.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Henry J



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2008,22:48   

Quote
Nevermind. I read the instructions on the quiz paper but not the ones in the book, which gave the option of saying it was nonsensical.


Well the nerve of the professor, requiring the student to know how to recognize nonsense when he sees it. How can people from here know how to recognize nonsense when they spend all their time arguing with, uh... Oh. Never mind.

Henry

  
Lou FCD



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 05 2008,09:27   

I just wanted to take a minute to say that my prof rocketh.

Apparently I wasn't the only one who didn't RTFB, and he "was in a good mood" (direct quote), so he didn't crucify us for not labeling the screwy molecules, if we drew them out reasonably correctly according to the given structural diagram.

I wound up with 11 out of the 12 possible points.

Given that, and that my Spanish instructor also didn't crucify us on spelling on our first quiz (and I got the extra credit problem which made up for all my mistakes, giving me a 100), it's not been so bad an ending to the week.

I got my precalc quiz and my labs back Wednesday night, and maxed them all out at 100s too.

I'm ready for the weekend.

:)

--- over which I have an English essay to write for Monday and my first exam (Spanish) to study for on Tuesday.

:(

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 05 2008,09:34   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 05 2008,09:27)
I'm ready for the weekend.

:)

--- over which I have an English essay to write for Monday and my first exam (Spanish) to study for on Tuesday.

:(

We give our first exam in intro Biology on Monday night.

There are 792 students in 10 sections currently enrolled. It's a logistical nightmare.

Frankly, I'm convinced it is easier to study and take a test than it is to write it, proof-read it, make two versions to discourage cheating, distribute it to 7 exam rooms, and get it graded. The students have no clues about this, of course; they are focused on one exam (theirs). And they are all convinced that we are trying to flunk them. Little do they know that I am as anxious (maybe more anxious) to see those grades as they are. I want them to do well, and I'm bummed when they don't.

Good luck on your exam, Lou. And thanks for keeping us posted on your progress there!

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Lou FCD



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2008,17:15   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Sep. 05 2008,10:34)
Good luck on your exam, Lou. And thanks for keeping us posted on your progress there!

Thanks Alby, and you're welcome.

My blog is getting kinda like the fridge was for my kids when they were in grade school (as is this thread), an observation which I find endlessly amusing.

:)

I realize I'm a little behind on posting the notes and hope to catch up soon, but as I said, I have a paper to finish and some studying to do.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
jeffox



Posts: 671
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 07 2008,21:14   

Hiya Lou!

I just got done with my first week back at school.  As a geology major, my main course is Minerology/Petrology; but I'm also taking Pre-Calc and an intro to Archeology class.

You wrote above:

Quote
I got my precalc quiz and my labs back Wednesday night, and maxed them all out at 100s too.


I took my first quiz on Thurs. and think that I did well - but I haven't seen the result yet.  We're currently on line equations and quadratic formula derivation.  Neh. . . :)

My Archeology instructor is very animated, likes to quote James Brown, and is a joke-a-minute kind of guy.  I don't anticipate any problems there.

Min-Pet is going to be a lot of work, but should be rewarding as a major "core" course for me.  Plus we have all kinds of field trips (two weekenders, one going as far as the Black Hills in SD) and I get a really cool hammer!!

I had Chem last semester, and (maybe) in the above, the bond is actually a C-C bond, with the H bonding to one or the other?  Anyway, I got a B+ in that course, but did a lot of work and kinda forgot a lot already.  :P

Best of luck to all of the school returnees!  Have fun and learn lots.

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2008,11:26   

Quote
My Archeology instructor


But does he carry a whip, wear a hat, and look like Harrison Ford? ;)

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2008,14:27   

Quote (jeffox @ Sep. 07 2008,22:14)
Hiya Lou!

I just got done with my first week back at school.  As a geology major, my main course is Minerology/Petrology; but I'm also taking Pre-Calc and an intro to Archeology class.

You wrote above:

Quote
I got my precalc quiz and my labs back Wednesday night, and maxed them all out at 100s too.


I took my first quiz on Thurs. and think that I did well - but I haven't seen the result yet.  We're currently on line equations and quadratic formula derivation.  Neh. . . :)

My Archeology instructor is very animated, likes to quote James Brown, and is a joke-a-minute kind of guy.  I don't anticipate any problems there.

Min-Pet is going to be a lot of work, but should be rewarding as a major "core" course for me.  Plus we have all kinds of field trips (two weekenders, one going as far as the Black Hills in SD) and I get a really cool hammer!!

I had Chem last semester, and (maybe) in the above, the bond is actually a C-C bond, with the H bonding to one or the other?  Anyway, I got a B+ in that course, but did a lot of work and kinda forgot a lot already.  :P

Best of luck to all of the school returnees!  Have fun and learn lots.

Here's to us, Jeff!

May we learn lots, and share the wealth.

(and now I'm three lectures and a lab behind in posting my notes.... I really need to get caught up on that!)

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2008,15:04   

Oh, almost forgot.

We turned in our lab reports for the termite lab today, in the first part of lab.... to each other.

Each person in each group turned over their lab report to someone from a different group. We're peer reviewing before final drafting.

So next Monday, each group gets their copies of the lab report back from the various reviewers, and then we take the critiques and redraft our papers for final turn-in the following week.

That's pretty cool.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
jeffox



Posts: 671
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2008,23:19   

Henry J wrote above:

Quote
But does he carry a whip, wear a hat, and look like Harrison Ford?  


No, not really.  He does talk a lot about drinking "40's" out of brown paper bags.  :)  Really, he's quite the cat, and a real quick wit, too boot.  

One student made a kinda goofy comment about how cattle, on average, orient themselves with their heads to the north.  The instructor's immediate reply was that that was because they're fed cow magnets.  Being that I've spent a lot of my life in and around farming communities, I actually knew what a cow magnet was.  I almost hit the floor laughing.  Sharp, that one.  :)

Note to city-folks:  A cow magnet is a small, rounded-edged cylinder of steel that is magnetized and fed to cattle to make all the iron-based garbage they eat collect in their stomachs and not go into their intestines where that shit can really cause problems.  They're about 2 inches long and about 1/4 inch in diameter.  The metals that cows eat include parts of old barbed-wire fences, nails, old building materials, etc.  A lot of farmers in the olden days just threw garbage out into their fields to get rid of it.  More than anybody really wanted to know, but there it is.   Moo, y'all.  :)   :)   :p

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,11:22   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 08 2008,13:04)
Oh, almost forgot.

We turned in our lab reports for the termite lab today, in the first part of lab.... to each other.

Each person in each group turned over their lab report to someone from a different group. We're peer reviewing before final drafting.

So next Monday, each group gets their copies of the lab report back from the various reviewers, and then we take the critiques and redraft our papers for final turn-in the following week.

That's pretty cool.

Anonymous peer review (drawing reports randomly) would have been more realistic, and much more entertaining.  You're much more likely to hand out an authentic merciless kicking if you're safe from reprisals.

To make it a truly accurate simulation, you should drop enough little hints for your victim to be all but certain who did the dirty deed - but unable to prove a thing.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
OWKtree



Posts: 16
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,14:02   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 03 2008,11:37)

Reading the instructions, like asking for directions, is the domain of the female. Those that say you can't put a square peg through a round hole have not witnessed the brute force and ignorance school of inquiry.


The "elegant" male solution for getting a square peg into a round hole requires the use of a lathe.

- Kurt

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,14:09   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Aug. 30 2008,21:09)
Lou

I think that your understanding of the basic material may be better than some of my students.  Here is an email, rec'd tonight, from a student in my intro bio class. The name is withheld to protect the innocent...
     
Quote
I was reading the textbook and I am now confused.

On page 4, it defines Atoms as "...the fundamental building blocks of all substances, living and non-living."
Then on page 22, it goes on to say that ... "Atoms differ in the number of subatomic particles, but all have a nucleus..."
--- Back on page 8, it told me that bacteria & archaea are single-celled organisms, but that they are prokaryotic, meaning that they have no nucleus..
..Farther back still, on page four, it says in short : atoms join together to make molecules, and molecules (become organized into?) make cells...

So as I said I am confused.  Is the textbook saying that some molecules are formed without atoms?  If so, what are they made of?

..Or is page 22 incorrect about all atoms having nuclei or is there something else ?

Thanks for clearing this up

You know, it's funny, I never really thought of the ambiguity about 'nucleus'.  They were just two different concepts with two different words, in my mind at least.

I mean, I know that it's the same word, but...I don't know, it was just different.  Probably partially due to the fact that I am inclined to biology more than chemistry, so cells come to mind more often than atoms, but still.

On one hand, at least the student paid enough attention when reading to even notice that it was the same word used.  That's at least somewhat observant.

On the other hand...that should never have left middle school, let alone high school.  Maybe even elementary school.

Scary, funny, and strange all at once.

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,14:24   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 08 2008,16:04)
Oh, almost forgot.

We turned in our lab reports for the termite lab today, in the first part of lab.... to each other.

Each person in each group turned over their lab report to someone from a different group. We're peer reviewing before final drafting.

So next Monday, each group gets their copies of the lab report back from the various reviewers, and then we take the critiques and redraft our papers for final turn-in the following week.

That's pretty cool.

Forgot to add, I really enjoyed reading about the termites.  Something I didn't know and another fascinating about nature.  Cool!

How sad of a nerd am I that the development of a hypothesis was nearly as much fun as the termites themselves?  I know it's very School House Rock!, but learning is awesome!

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2008,14:58   

Quote (OWKtree @ Sep. 09 2008,12:02)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Sep. 03 2008,11:37)

Reading the instructions, like asking for directions, is the domain of the female. Those that say you can't put a square peg through a round hole have not witnessed the brute force and ignorance school of inquiry.


The "elegant" male solution for getting a square peg into a round hole requires the use of a lathe.

- Kurt

Too girly.  If it doesn't fit, get a bigger hammer.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2008,03:54   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 05 2008,09:27)
I just wanted to take a minute to say that my prof rocketh.

Apparently I wasn't the only one who didn't RTFB, and he "was in a good mood" (direct quote), so he didn't crucify us for not labeling the screwy molecules, if we drew them out reasonably correctly according to the given structural diagram.

I wound up with 11 out of the 12 possible points.

Given that, and that my Spanish instructor also didn't crucify us on spelling on our first quiz (and I got the extra credit problem which made up for all my mistakes, giving me a 100), it's not been so bad an ending to the week.

I got my precalc quiz and my labs back Wednesday night, and maxed them all out at 100s too.

I'm ready for the weekend.

:)

--- over which I have an English essay to write for Monday and my first exam (Spanish) to study for on Tuesday.

:(

The one class I remember my grade in was pre-calc. I got an A on the first 4 out of 5 equally weighted tests and a B- in the class.

That worried me IIRC because I had calc the next quarter after summer break and it was required for science majors.

But that had to do more with distractions and so forth... I'm sure you'll sail through.

Why are you taking Spanish?

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2008,06:30   

Quote (jeffox @ Sep. 09 2008,00:19)
Note to city-folks:  A cow magnet is a small, rounded-edged cylinder of steel that is magnetized and fed to cattle to make all the iron-based garbage they eat collect in their stomachs and not go into their intestines where that shit can really cause problems.  They're about 2 inches long and about 1/4 inch in diameter.  The metals that cows eat include parts of old barbed-wire fences, nails, old building materials, etc.  A lot of farmers in the olden days just threw garbage out into their fields to get rid of it.  More than anybody really wanted to know, but there it is.   Moo, y'all.  :)   :)   :p

(slaps forehead)

So these refrigerator magnets are supposed to go IN the refrigerator.

DUH!

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2008,06:59   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Sep. 10 2008,06:30)
Quote (jeffox @ Sep. 09 2008,00:19)
Note to city-folks:  A cow magnet is a small, rounded-edged cylinder of steel that is magnetized and fed to cattle to make all the iron-based garbage they eat collect in their stomachs and not go into their intestines where that shit can really cause problems.  They're about 2 inches long and about 1/4 inch in diameter.  The metals that cows eat include parts of old barbed-wire fences, nails, old building materials, etc.  A lot of farmers in the olden days just threw garbage out into their fields to get rid of it.  More than anybody really wanted to know, but there it is.   Moo, y'all.  :)   :)   :p

(slaps forehead)

So these refrigerator magnets are supposed to go IN the refrigerator.

DUH!

I worked as a butcher for around 10 years. (I grew up in the country)

Cow magnets pick up a lot of things you wouldn't think of a cow eating but one thing I never figured out was the iron filings, little tiny metal needle shaped bits of metal stuck on them. Some cows are plumb full of magnets and those I figured were covered with bits rubbed off the other magnets but even if they only had a few the same stuff covered them. I imagined they were sucking the iron out of their spinach.

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2008,19:47   

Quote (BWE @ Sep. 10 2008,04:54)
The one class I remember my grade in was pre-calc. I got an A on the first 4 out of 5 equally weighted tests and a B- in the class.

That worried me IIRC because I had calc the next quarter after summer break and it was required for science majors.

But that had to do more with distractions and so forth... I'm sure you'll sail through.

Why are you taking Spanish?

A foreign language is required both for my associate's at Coastal and for my bachelor's in the UNC system (to which I'll transfer), and I took both French and German in high school.  I thought this time around I'd take something actually useful.  :)

Besides which, it should really be an easy A, and it would be handy for realsies here.

Speaking of precalc distractions, just as class started this evening we got word of a possible tornado headed our direction (by way of my neighborhood), and the building's classes all emptied into the first floor hallway.

We hung out for about 15 or 20 minutes before we got the all clear, and could go back to class. No sightings on the ground that I'm yet aware of, but frankly I'm exhausted and in a great deal of pain tonight, so further investigation will wait until tomorrow.

Right now, I just want to put the precalc quiz behind me (I think I did pretty well) and go to bed.

The days are starting to run together, now.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
jeffox



Posts: 671
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2008,22:40   

A furly odd occurance today.  I went to my new job (making sandwiches at the campus cafeteria) a few hours earlier today to take in my first Geology Club meeting and do some power schmoozing.  :)  After the Club's meeting, there was about an hour before I had to go to work.  So, there I was, hanging out on the commons when I noticed a fairly large group of students clustered around someone speaking.  Sort of.  I got closer and ended up actually participating.  :)

It was this cat.

Straw men, evidentiary double standards, misidentification, historical revisionism, you name it, he spewed it.  If a question was too difficult, he danced around it.  Thin-skinned and nervous as he spoke, he denounced everything he felt wasn't up to his biblical standard(s).  

I lit into him on a number of issues, and I wasn't alone.  He had little support, mostly people asking him to clarify his point(s).

He's a poor dancer, and came off as a total tard.  He even said that Dawkins made himself look bad in Expelled.  I about died with laughter at that one.

I will say that I developed a great deal of respect for the students at UWEC.  They treated him with respect, for the most part, and yet engaged him on his inconsistencies and political obtuseness.  

I guess school isn't just about book-learning.  It was an interesting day today.

Otherwise, like you wrote, Lou; my days are beginning to blend together also.  Second quiz tomorrow in Precalc.

I hope that all the other current students are having a good time and learning a lot, too!

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2008,04:14   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 11 2008,01:47)
[SNIP]

...and I took both French and German in high school.  I thought this time around I'd take something actually useful.  :)

[SNIP]

Don't knock it, UK foreign policy and "special relationship" with the USA is based on the fact that we mostly cannot be arsed to learn French.* ;-)

Louis

*Needless to say, as a Francophile, this is a policy I profoundly disagree with.

--------------
Bye.

  
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2008,09:48   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 11 2008,05:14)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 11 2008,01:47)
[SNIP]

...and I took both French and German in high school.  I thought this time around I'd take something actually useful.  :)

[SNIP]

Don't knock it, UK foreign policy and "special relationship" with the USA is based on the fact that we mostly cannot be arsed to learn French.* ;-)

Louis

*Needless to say, as a Francophile, this is a policy I profoundly disagree with.

I thought half the language was French already. (Obviously not necessary for previous sentence.)

--------------
I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
huwp



Posts: 172
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2008,10:48   

Hey, if you've studied French AND Spanish then you'll know Portuguese - ask AFDave.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2008,11:46   

Quote (dvunkannon @ Sep. 11 2008,15:48)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 11 2008,05:14)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 11 2008,01:47)
[SNIP]

...and I took both French and German in high school.  I thought this time around I'd take something actually useful.  :)

[SNIP]

Don't knock it, UK foreign policy and "special relationship" with the USA is based on the fact that we mostly cannot be arsed to learn French.* ;-)

Louis

*Needless to say, as a Francophile, this is a policy I profoundly disagree with.

I thought half the language was French already. (Obviously not necessary for previous sentence.)

Of course it is, we just don't admit it.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2008,11:51   



My notes and thoughts from Biology 111, for Wednesday, September 3, 2008. The entire series can be found here.

We left off before the Labor Day break with polarity and the ability to form hydrogen bonds.

The polarity of the water molecule, having an oxygen to one side and the two hydrogen atoms to the other, gives the molecules a slight attraction to charged molecules, since the oxygen end is going to have a slight negative charge and the hydrogen end is going to have a slight positive charge. This is caused by the unequal sharing of valence e- between the oxygen and the two hydrogens. Because the oxygen pulls harder on the shared e-, they are going to spend more time toward the oxygen, increasing its negative charge a little, and away from the hydrogens, increasing their positive charge a little (actually decreasing their negative charge a little, to be accurate).

That little bit of polarity will cause the oxygen end of one water molecule to be attracted to the hydrogen end of another water molecule (or any other positively charged molecule), and though the effect is small in one pair of molecules, it adds up with millions of molecules.

This is what causes the meniscus in a test tube or a glass of water. The water toward the edge, closest to the glass, is attracted to the glass, pulling itself up a little to stick to the sides. It's also the cause for the ability to fill a glass slightly over the edge.

Emergent Properties of Water

1. Cohesion and Adhesion

Cohesion is the ability of water (in this case) molecules to stick to each other by hydrogen bonding

Adhesion is the ability of water (in this case) to stick to other polar molecules.

In our previous example of the test tube or glass, cohesion would be responsible for the water overfilling the glass without spillage, and adhesion would be responsible for the meniscus.

They'll also cause the water level inside a glass straw to be higher than the water level of a beaker in which the straw is placed. The thinner the straw, the greater the disparity between the water levels, as there are fewer water molecules in the center, far away from the glass. In the center, gravity will tend to overcome the hydrogen bonding, but at the sides, where the water is close to the glass, the hydrogen bond is strong enough to overcome the gravitational pull.

In another example, it's the cause of a little bit of water acting like glue between two glass plates. The sum of all those hydrogen bonds makes it very difficult to separate two wet panes of glass.

In biology, this is how a plant gets water from the ground to the leaves. Little teeny veins in the tree attract the water molecules, which adhere their way up against gravity to the leaves, where it evaporates.

This lecture was rather short, due to the pop quiz Doc gave that day, and here is where it ended.

Quote
From whence came the art:

That image is of our textbook, Biology, Eighth Edition, by Campbell &amp; Reese et al.


--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2008,11:57   

Quote (jeffox @ Sep. 10 2008,23:40)
Otherwise, like you wrote, Lou; my days are beginning to blend together also.  Second quiz tomorrow in Precalc.

Yeah, took my second last night, think I did pretty well. We'll be having them every Wednesday night from here out.

Got my Spanish exam from Tuesday back this morning:

100

(two small misspellings and one use of the wrong verb - I used soy instead of estoy - but I nailed the extra credit)

I seem to be keeping mi cabeza above la agua.

Quote (jeffox @ Sep. 10 2008,23:40)
I hope that all the other current students are having a good time and learning a lot, too!


I'll second that emotion.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Ra-Úl



Posts: 93
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2008,12:16   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 11 2008,11:57)
Quote (jeffox @ Sep. 10 2008,23:40)
Otherwise, like you wrote, Lou; my days are beginning to blend together also.  Second quiz tomorrow in Precalc.

Yeah, took my second last night, think I did pretty well. We'll be having them every Wednesday night from here out.

Got my Spanish exam from Tuesday back this morning:

100

(two small misspellings and one use of the wrong verb - I used soy instead of estoy - but I nailed the extra credit)

I seem to be keeping mi cabeza above la agua.

Quote (jeffox @ Sep. 10 2008,23:40)
I hope that all the other current students are having a good time and learning a lot, too!


I'll second that emotion.

Uhmmm . . . "el agua." Feminine nouns beginning with a stressed 'a' (or 'ha') take the "el" article in singular form, and the "las" def. article in plural: "las aguas." Why? Revenge for English spelling. Really.

--------------
Beauty is that which makes us desperate. - P Valery

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2008,15:52   

Quote (Ra-Úl @ Sep. 11 2008,13:16)
Uhmmm . . . "el agua." Feminine nouns beginning with a stressed 'a' (or 'ha') take the "el" article in singular form, and the "las" def. article in plural: "las aguas." Why? Revenge for English spelling. Really.

heh, thanks. We hadn't gotten to that yet, but I remember agua from Sesame Street.

:)

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2008,18:20   

I read in one of the recent science mags (science news maybe?) that the quantum effect of the water molecule have a lot to do with the emergent chemical properties and that water made with deuterium is fundementally different in that the bond is much tighter or something like that.

[/blithering]

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

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Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2008,18:32   

Quote (BWE @ Sep. 12 2008,00:20)
I read in one of the recent science mags (science news maybe?) that the quantum effect of the water molecule have a lot to do with the emergent chemical properties and that water made with deuterium is fundementally different in that the bond is much tighter or something like that.

[/blithering]

Not entirely blithertastic my friend.

Ask yourself why (for example) hydrogen sulfide or hydrogen selenide don't behave the same way as water (in their liquid states). Elements from the first period tend to be unusual for their group by virtue of their comparatively small atomic radius and high electronegativity (simple explanation. More complex stuff involves maths, quantum mechanics, and depending on how far one wants to go, molecular orbital theory).

Isotope effects (H to D for example) can alter the strength of the bond sufficiently to noticeably affect the dissociation constants or the pka for example.

Oops, I appear to have got all excited and mildly chemical again. Apologies.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
dogdidit



Posts: 315
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2008,22:26   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 11 2008,18:32)
   
Quote (BWE @ Sep. 12 2008,00:20)
I read in one of the recent science mags (science news maybe?) that the quantum effect of the water molecule have a lot to do with the emergent chemical properties and that water made with deuterium is fundementally different in that the bond is much tighter or something like that.

[/blithering]

Not entirely blithertastic my friend.

Ask yourself why (for example) hydrogen sulfide or hydrogen selenide don't behave the same way as water (in their liquid states). Elements from the first period tend to be unusual for their group by virtue of their comparatively small atomic radius and high electronegativity (simple explanation. More complex stuff involves maths, quantum mechanics, and depending on how far one wants to go, molecular orbital theory).

Isotope effects (H to D for example) can alter the strength of the bond sufficiently to noticeably affect the dissociation constants or the pka for example.

Oops, I appear to have got all excited and mildly chemical again. Apologies.

Louis

You mean second period, correct? That is, home of oxygen, nitrogen, and flourine, the chief electronegative culprits in hydrogen bonding? I'm not nitpicking, I just want to make sure I understand. My college physics never got this far. Excuse me for being a noisy kibbitzer.

It seems to me that "hydrogen bonding" is a bit mislabelled; it's more to do with the electronegative elements than hydrogen. I read somewhere that even carbon can participate in "hydrogen bonding".

ANYHOO- Lou, hydrogen bonding is pretty critical in biochemistry. The two complementary strands on DNA are held together with hydrogen bonds. And I believe hydrogen bonding also plays a role in protein folding. So you're going to spend some time studying it, I imagine.

As for deuterium chemistry, I am slack-jawed. The extra neutron is electrically neutral, and can interact with the electron cloud only weakly (literally), I thought, so WTF? Guess I needed to stay in school a little longer.

Louis, if I had a cap, I'd doff it. *cap-doffing motion*

BWE, let me borrow this:
</blithering>

--------------
"Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

  
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2008,23:02   

dogdidit, after I read the article I called a friend of mine who works at Hanford as a researcher and asked him if they were letting heavy water into the columbia since I'm downstream and all. He said, "I don't know".

WHat!?

You should know dammit.

But I didn't say that. I only thought it.

The thing that made it noteworthy for me was that the QM of the atom affected the chemistry in such a major way.

Here is the online article! I googled 'science news heavy water.'

http://www.sciencenews.org/view....fferent


The interbitlitweb is neet.link

ETA: here is a bit of it:
Quote
The length of bonds connecting water molecules could demonstrate quantum effects and help explain some of water’s weirdness.
access
HEAVY CONNECTIONSThe distance between oxygen and the heavier deuterium in a D2O molecule in liquid heavy water is three percent shorter than the distance between oxygen and hydrogen in an H2O molecule; and the hydrogen bond (dotted) is four percent longer in heavy water than in light. Click image twice for a larger view.J. Korenblat/Science News

Heavy water is not just heavier. Swapping each H in H2O with a D — hydrogen’s isotope deuterium — changes many of water’s properties. Heavy water is poisonous, and its freezing point is 4° Celsius, instead of 0°. Those differences may reveal that quantum effects rule in ordinary water, researchers have now found.

The results, reported in an upcoming Physical Review Letters, could shed light on quantum theory’s relevance for ordinary water, which is the medium for most of the action inside living cells. The work could also help explain some controversial findings on how biological molecules behave in water.


--------------
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When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

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Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2008,23:12   

Quote
The extra neutron is electrically neutral, and can interact with the electron cloud only weakly (literally),


Is it that it interacts weakly with the electrons, or simply that it doubles the inertia of the atom it's in, making it more resistant to getting shoved around by outside forces? (Also heavier gravitationally, of course.)

Henry

  
jeffox



Posts: 671
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2008,23:36   

Oh, ya ya, da fish get bigger in heavy water, butcha can't eat 'em.

:)   :)   :p

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2008,03:07   

Quote (dogdidit @ Sep. 12 2008,04:26)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 11 2008,18:32)
     
Quote (BWE @ Sep. 12 2008,00:20)
I read in one of the recent science mags (science news maybe?) that the quantum effect of the water molecule have a lot to do with the emergent chemical properties and that water made with deuterium is fundementally different in that the bond is much tighter or something like that.

[/blithering]

Not entirely blithertastic my friend.

Ask yourself why (for example) hydrogen sulfide or hydrogen selenide don't behave the same way as water (in their liquid states). Elements from the first period tend to be unusual for their group by virtue of their comparatively small atomic radius and high electronegativity (simple explanation. More complex stuff involves maths, quantum mechanics, and depending on how far one wants to go, molecular orbital theory).

Isotope effects (H to D for example) can alter the strength of the bond sufficiently to noticeably affect the dissociation constants or the pka for example.

Oops, I appear to have got all excited and mildly chemical again. Apologies.

Louis

You mean second period, correct? That is, home of oxygen, nitrogen, and flourine, the chief electronegative culprits in hydrogen bonding? I'm not nitpicking, I just want to make sure I understand. My college physics never got this far. Excuse me for being a noisy kibbitzer.

It seems to me that "hydrogen bonding" is a bit mislabelled; it's more to do with the electronegative elements than hydrogen. I read somewhere that even carbon can participate in "hydrogen bonding".

ANYHOO- Lou, hydrogen bonding is pretty critical in biochemistry. The two complementary strands on DNA are held together with hydrogen bonds. And I believe hydrogen bonding also plays a role in protein folding. So you're going to spend some time studying it, I imagine.

As for deuterium chemistry, I am slack-jawed. The extra neutron is electrically neutral, and can interact with the electron cloud only weakly (literally), I thought, so WTF? Guess I needed to stay in school a little longer.

Louis, if I had a cap, I'd doff it. *cap-doffing motion*

BWE, let me borrow this:
</blithering>

LOL Yeah I meant first period....excluding that OTHER first period containing H and He above it. ;-)

Sorry for being confusing.

As for isotope effects, the mass of the atom in a bond has an effect. And wouldn't you know it Wikipedia has something on it. See here. It's all to do with charge/mass and the way a bond vibrates (in classical terms. The QM version is more complicated). I loves me some physical organic chem.

This is very important in biology BTW. Getting a large amount of deuterium in you can seriously affect certain rate critical enzyme catalysed reactions. This is what is technically known as a "bad thing" in clinical terms!

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2008,03:10   

Quote (Henry J @ Sep. 12 2008,05:12)
Quote
The extra neutron is electrically neutral, and can interact with the electron cloud only weakly (literally),


Is it that it interacts weakly with the electrons, or simply that it doubles the inertia of the atom it's in, making it more resistant to getting shoved around by outside forces? (Also heavier gravitationally, of course.)

Henry

The second one.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2008,03:20   

Also, if this turns out to be repeatable:
Quote
Rübhausen says the difference in bond lengths could help explain some surprising results he and his collaborators reported last year. His team was comparing RNA made with ordinary organic molecules to RNA made of those molecules’ mirror images. Their goal was to shed light on why life always uses one type of molecule rather than the other.

Chemically, the molecules and their mirror images should be identical. But the researchers found small differences in the energy it takes to excite electrons in the two types of RNA — but only when the RNA molecules were suspended in ordinary water. When the researchers repeated the experiment in heavy water, the differences disappeared.


It will quite possibly be very important.

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

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Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2008,04:40   

Quote (BWE @ Sep. 12 2008,09:20)
Also, if this turns out to be repeatable:
Quote
Rübhausen says the difference in bond lengths could help explain some surprising results he and his collaborators reported last year. His team was comparing RNA made with ordinary organic molecules to RNA made of those molecules’ mirror images. Their goal was to shed light on why life always uses one type of molecule rather than the other.

Chemically, the molecules and their mirror images should be identical. But the researchers found small differences in the energy it takes to excite electrons in the two types of RNA — but only when the RNA molecules were suspended in ordinary water. When the researchers repeated the experiment in heavy water, the differences disappeared.


It will quite possibly be very important.

I'd be careful with this. RNA is big, I'd have to check the original data out to be comfortable with what is being claimed. Is that from the above linked stuff, or do you have a reference for it? I'm dead interested so lemme have a look!

When you have large molecules with large numbers of asymmetric centres (and planes and axes and tertiary structure etc) it is very, very, VERY hard to confirm that you have each asymmetric element perfectly opposed in your enantiomeric partner molecules. Sure, optical rotation, circular dichroism and complex NMR experiments etc can give you a huge amount of information about molecular symmetry. It's even possible they've synthesised short RNA pieces (or even large ones) from different chiral pools of molecules and made sure that no other stereoisomers crept in (practically impossible to do 100%, but not too bad at 99.9%!) and got X-ray structures. Even then remember that they are dealing with billions of billions of molecules in each sample, racemisation of asymmetric centres is a spontaneous process.

It could be some solvation effect with heavy water, it could even be due to exchange processes at labile hydrogens.

ARGH! I'm going to have to go and look this up now aren't I? Thanks BWE, like I need MORE excuses to hunt through the lit for entertaining science. ;-)

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2008,04:53   

It's from the link above. I wanted to see if anyone follows my links. :)

And yeah... I can't imagine the lab procedure.

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2008,04:57   

http://rnajournal.cshlp.org/cgi/reprint/13/11/1877.pdf

Here ya go.

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2008,05:38   

Quick note before school this morning:

Yep, Doc is spending a lot of time really emphasizing the importance of Hydrogen bonding in biology.

I skimmed the heavy water discussion, but I'll try to squeeze in some time this afternoon to check it out. Thanks for that, fellas.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2008,05:45   

Sorry to hijack your thread but it's important you get the facts before you go off to face a professor who will likely tell you that God doesn't wear panties.

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
dogdidit



Posts: 315
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2008,06:54   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 12 2008,03:10)
 
Quote (Henry J @ Sep. 12 2008,05:12)
   
Quote
The extra neutron is electrically neutral, and can interact with the electron cloud only weakly (literally),


Is it that it interacts weakly with the electrons, or simply that it doubles the inertia of the atom it's in, making it more resistant to getting shoved around by outside forces? (Also heavier gravitationally, of course.)

Henry

The second one.

Louis

Ah, hadn't considered momentum. I heard hoofbeats and thought of zebras. Great discussion, Louis and BWE! Though it's more science than I can handle right now (7:30 am and in a seriously un-caffeinated state). I'll flatter myself by pretending I'll read up and understand it later.

BTW Henry J is right, we shouldn't be ignoring gravity; why, it's the strongest force in the universe doncha know!  :p

--------------
"Humans carry plants and animals all over the globe, thus introducing them to places they could never have reached on their own. That certainly increases biodiversity." - D'OL

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2008,07:13   

Besides the discrete effects on individual reactions, deuterium (in water) has interesting effects on whole organisms. One of the more well-studied effects is the ability of heavy water to slow down circadian rhythms, which are fairly resistant to manipulation by lots of other chemical and physical agents. Here's a classic paper in that area.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2008,07:18   

I'm going to start a new thread for this. Can a moderator move the other posts in heavy water? I feel like it's stealing some of Lou's spotlight.  ???

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2008,11:48   

Quote (BWE @ Sep. 12 2008,08:18)
I'm going to start a new thread for this. Can a moderator move the other posts in heavy water? I feel like it's stealing some of Lou's spotlight.  ???

It's fine, BWE. Besides, I only have a one way button for the Wall, so it's something Wesley might have to do if it's important to be over there. Otherwise, you could just post a link back to here for the beginning of the discussion.

*****

I got my first English essay back today.

See it here, at Crowded Head: My Country Bleeds for Thee

I dun got a A.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2008,12:12   

Quote (dogdidit @ Sep. 12 2008,05:54)
BTW Henry J is right, we shouldn't be ignoring gravity; why, it's the strongest force in the universe doncha know!  :p

Yeah, ignoring gravity can sometimes have sidewalk effects.

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2008,12:45   

Quote (BWE @ Sep. 12 2008,03:20)
Also, if this turns out to be repeatable:
Quote
Rübhausen says the difference in bond lengths could help explain some surprising results he and his collaborators reported last year. His team was comparing RNA made with ordinary organic molecules to RNA made of those molecules’ mirror images. Their goal was to shed light on why life always uses one type of molecule rather than the other.

Chemically, the molecules and their mirror images should be identical. But the researchers found small differences in the energy it takes to excite electrons in the two types of RNA — but only when the RNA molecules were suspended in ordinary water. When the researchers repeated the experiment in heavy water, the differences disappeared.


It will quite possibly be very important.

Betcha it won't be replicated.  Pun intended.

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2008,13:02   

Quote (dogdidit @ Sep. 12 2008,06:54)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 12 2008,03:10)
   
Quote (Henry J @ Sep. 12 2008,05:12)
   
Quote
The extra neutron is electrically neutral, and can interact with the electron cloud only weakly (literally),


Is it that it interacts weakly with the electrons, or simply that it doubles the inertia of the atom it's in, making it more resistant to getting shoved around by outside forces? (Also heavier gravitationally, of course.)

Henry

The second one.

Louis

Ah, hadn't considered momentum. I heard hoofbeats and thought of zebras. Great discussion, Louis and BWE! Though it's more science than I can handle right now (7:30 am and in a seriously un-caffeinated state). I'll flatter myself by pretending I'll read up and understand it later.

BTW Henry J is right, we shouldn't be ignoring gravity; why, it's the strongest force in the universe doncha know!  :p

The following may take a bit of work, but it will be worth it for those who really want to understand the PRIMARY kinetic isotope effect.  Here is a wikipedia article with a picture that may illustrate why H and D have different bond properties.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morse_potential

See those green horizontal lines?  They denote harmonic vibration energy of (v+0.5) times Planck's constant times frequency.  
Frequency is sqrt(k/mass), where k is the curvature of the parabola.  
E=1/2 k (r-re)^2, the second derivative of E with respect to r is k.  
Force is -dE/dr, or -k (r-re).  
F = -k (r-re) is Hooke's Law.

H is lighter than D, so the frequency is higher for H than D, and the green lines are higher for H than for D.  This analysis carries over to the blue curve, and blue horizontal lines, just more complicated.  However, you can't get out of the green well, which is infinite (i.e. harmonic oscillator breaks down), so in real life you have the blue curve.

The lowest energy any molecule can have is with v=0.  The v=0 level is lower for D, so the D0 is larger for D.  D0 is the bond energy.  So R-D bonds are stronger than R-H bonds.

What about bond distance?  The bond vibrates back and forth, but one can see from the blue curve that for a particular energy, the amount of stretch exceeds the amount of compression, so that the average distance is greater than re.  Since the energy level for D is lower than H, the stretching and compression are both smaller, but the stretch more so, so that re is shorter for R-D.  

R is boring organic stuff of interest only to Louis.

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2008,13:35   

Tracy,
I wrote down the equations from the Wiki page and tried to figure it out but I'm sadly lacking.

I'm reading "A Stubbornly Persistent Illusion: The Essential Scientific Works of Albert Einstein" right now because I told myself I'm going to understand relativity thoroughly before I die. Halfway through the general theory I figured out the equation in the special theory that explains why mass has a discrete energy value.

In QM I've figured out some of it, like I can calculate the Hamiltonian sometimes, given enough info (I understand that doesn't make sense too :) ). And I can follow the examples for Schrodinger's equations. But the second I put away my notes and books, I can't do shit with it.

And now, even though there's a new LGH powered up, and we can build computers and nanomaterials and cosmology and all that, I have a sneaky suspicion that no one really gets relativity. Or at least not most people who ought to. Is there any justification to my suspicion?

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2008,14:12   

Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Sep. 12 2008,19:02)
[SNIP]

R is boring organic stuff of interest only to Louis.

LOL This is undoubtedly true.

That reminds me of the comedy banter I've had with those of an inorganic/physical bent.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2008,15:08   

Quote (BWE @ Sep. 12 2008,13:35)
Tracy,
I wrote down the equations from the Wiki page and tried to figure it out but I'm sadly lacking.

I'm reading "A Stubbornly Persistent Illusion: The Essential Scientific Works of Albert Einstein" right now because I told myself I'm going to understand relativity thoroughly before I die. Halfway through the general theory I figured out the equation in the special theory that explains why mass has a discrete energy value.

In QM I've figured out some of it, like I can calculate the Hamiltonian sometimes, given enough info (I understand that doesn't make sense too :) ). And I can follow the examples for Schrodinger's equations. But the second I put away my notes and books, I can't do shit with it.

And now, even though there's a new LGH powered up, and we can build computers and nanomaterials and cosmology and all that, I have a sneaky suspicion that no one really gets relativity. Or at least not most people who ought to. Is there any justification to my suspicion?

Just use my equations, and the picture from wiki.  It will be much easier.

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2008,15:18   

Have you seen my avatar? I think they might be testing the wrong thing..

Thanks. Now I'm reading the paper I linked earlier.

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2008,15:33   



My notes and thoughts from Biology 111, for Friday, September 5, 2008. The entire series can be found here.

On this day, Tropical Storm Hannah was expected to hit, so the college closed at 1 PM. Although that was well after the end of our scheduled lecture, Doc (if I recall correctly) cut the class a bit short to give folks headed home a little extra time.

So in the previous lecture, we had left off discussing Cohesion and Adhesion, the first of the emergent properties of water on the table for discussion. With this lecture, we picked up with the next emergent property on the list.

2. Moderation of Temperature

Water has a relatively high specific heat, which means that water can absorb and release large amounts of heat with little change in temperature.

To discuss this topic, it helps to first have an understanding of the difference between heat and temperature.

Heat is the total amount of kinetic energy in a body.

Temperature is the average kinetic energy of the particles in a body.

To illustrate this, we discussed the comparison of a hot cup of coffee to the Arctic Ocean.

While the temperature of the cup of coffee is higher, there are many fewer molecules in that cup than there are in the Arctic Ocean. The Arctic Ocean's greater number of molecules each have lower amounts of kinetic energy (hence the lower temperature) but the sum, the aggregate, the total amount of heat is higher, simply because a lot of little bits of heat add up.



It takes much change in energy to change the temperature of water due to Hydrogen bonding and the crystalline structure of water (even as a liquid, as hydrogen bonds are formed and broken, water has a basically crystalline structure).

The Hydrogen bonds are strong enough that each of them takes a certain amount of energy to break, so much of the heat coming onto the surface of the ocean from the sun is used in breaking those bonds, leaving less energy to impart to the water molecules directly. This energy absorption helps to keep the sun from baking the planet.

Reformation of the hydrogen bonds in the cold winter releases that heat back into the atmosphere, keeping the planet from freezing over.

This ties into the next part of temperature moderation.

Water has a relatively high heat of vaporization

Heat of vaporization is the amount of energy needed to go from a liquid to a gas. This is also due to Hydrogen bonding.

Water's State of Matter


Solid ---------> Liquid ---------> Gas
0°      HEAT                HEAT      100°


Evaporation lowers the average temperature of the water left behind.

Evaporative cooling ---> We use this technique as sweating. Plants use this in the leaves, which then draws water up through the plant from the ground (remember the Hydrogen bonding thing from the last lecture?).

Rain forests are so rainy because of the vast amount of evaporative cooling, which saturates the local atmosphere. All that water vapor then cools, condenses, and falls as rain because it's now heavier than the surrounding air.

The ocean temperature close to our shore varies between the low single digits in the winter to the upper twenties in the summer, so that's a thirty degree temperature difference over the course of the year.

In the desert, the temperature ranges from around zero at night to 50° or more during the day.

Water is a great temperature regulator.

We closed out the lecture with a short discussion of the gulf stream, and how that moderates the climate of the British Islands despite their high latitude. We compared Ireland specifically to the city of Moscow, Russia, which is at about the same latitude.

The one is nicknamed the Emerald Isle because it's lush and green. The other, not so much.

   
Quote
From whence came the art:

The first image is of our textbook, Biology, Eighth Edition, by Campbell &amp; Reese et al.

Other images by me and are licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution- NonCommercial- Share Alike 3.0 License.


--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2008,17:50   

I think this might be the most useful thread ever created at AtBC.

   
simmi



Posts: 38
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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2008,18:51   

Quote (stevestory @ Sep. 12 2008,18:50)
I think this might be the most useful thread ever created at AtBC.

I agree wholeheartedly.  And to be honest, Lou, I totally didn't know that you didn't do any college biology.  Your posts fisking teh tard were so good I assumed you had advanced training in bio.  Please keep the updates coming! (without sacrificing your work, of course)

This thread also inspired me to join in with my own stories of new beginnings (I'm just starting my PhD), but then I remembered I have my own blog which I've been neglecting.  Off to write some posts...

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2008,19:22   

Quote (stevestory @ Sep. 12 2008,18:50)
I think this might be the most useful thread ever created at AtBC.

Thank you Steve. That's some pretty high praise.

 
Quote (simmi @ Sep. 12 2008,19:51)
 
Quote (stevestory @ Sep. 12 2008,18:50)
I think this might be the most useful thread ever created at AtBC.

I agree wholeheartedly.  And to be honest, Lou, I totally didn't know that you didn't do any college biology.  Your posts fisking teh tard were so good I assumed you had advanced training in bio.  Please keep the updates coming! (without sacrificing your work, of course)


:)

Actually, my last biology class was a 9th or 10th grade Microbiology class that bored me to tears. The teacher was dry as a bone as I recall, and I think I squeaked by with a C. That would have been 1983ish?

Whipping up on TARD sometimes takes little more than clear thinking. It doesn't take a biologist to know that "Evilution sucks, therefore the Bible is true" isn't the greatest of arguments. Most of the time, in fact, one need only observe the TARDic tendency towards self-inflicted gunshot wounds to the feet to get a good laugh.

 
Quote (simmi @ Sep. 12 2008,19:51)
This thread also inspired me to join in with my own stories of new beginnings (I'm just starting my PhD), but then I remembered I have my own blog which I've been neglecting.  Off to write some posts...


Some linkage, please? I mean, if my little thread here is going to be someone's inspiration, I should at least get to see the fruits of my labor.

:)

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2008,19:32   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 12 2008,20:22)
Quote (stevestory @ Sep. 12 2008,18:50)
I think this might be the most useful thread ever created at AtBC.

Thank you Steve. That's some pretty high praise.

All the praise belongs to you. While lots of us have scientific knowledge, you're the only one bringing it here on a regular basis so that others might learn.

   
Henry J



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 12 2008,21:02   

Quote
It doesn't take a biologist to know that "Evilution sucks, therefore the Bible is true" isn't the greatest of arguments.


Yeah, if the argument consists of some equivalent to "biologists have as a group continuously overlooked such and such basic thing that would totally change their minds if they'd only pay attention to their critics", well, that hardly takes expertise to recognize the illogic.

Henry

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 17 2008,09:30   

First Biology exam was this morning at 8. I think I did pretty well, and none of the questions seemed very difficult, frankly.

So, either I know the material very well and I did well, or I'm talking out my ass and I blew out badly.

Tomorrow I should be able to get back to posting up notes, and hopefully I can get close to caught up on them by the weekend.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Henry J



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Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 17 2008,13:47   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 17 2008,08:30)
or I'm talking out my ass and I blew out badly.

That could depend on what you had for lunch... :p

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1776
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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 17 2008,14:49   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 17 2008,09:30)
First Biology exam was this morning at 8. I think I did pretty well, and none of the questions seemed very difficult, frankly.

So, either I know the material very well and I did well, or I'm talking out my ass and I blew out badly.

Tomorrow I should be able to get back to posting up notes, and hopefully I can get close to caught up on them by the weekend.

Why don't you use this site to help on all your courses? Rather than rewrite your notes to paper do it to here.

You will still get the initial benefit of rewriting and also the secondary benefit of people here who are experts on the subject correcting you sometimes.

It is not asking people to do your work for you if you respond with your own thinking. It would just be even more interesting discussions. Provided that is that you made a new thread for each subject.

It would be like having many instructors/profs and make interesting reading. IMO. Pretty sure I would also learn a few things. Just a thought.

  
Henry J



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 17 2008,22:32   

Is the course still on chemistry, or is it getting into actual biology?

Henry

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 18 2008,05:50   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Sep. 17 2008,15:49)
Why don't you use this site to help on all your courses? Rather than rewrite your notes to paper do it to here.

You will still get the initial benefit of rewriting and also the secondary benefit of people here who are experts on the subject correcting you sometimes.

It is not asking people to do your work for you if you respond with your own thinking. It would just be even more interesting discussions. Provided that is that you made a new thread for each subject.

It would be like having many instructors/profs and make interesting reading. IMO. Pretty sure I would also learn a few things. Just a thought.

Stephen, while in principle that is a great thought, I'm finding I barely have time to copy my Biology notes. As it stands, I'm somewhere around four lectures and a pair of labs behind now. (Though the labs will require only a little time to write up.)

Yesterday I had the exam, then a second essay to turn in for English, and a ton of precalc homework and labs to finish up, and a quiz in precalc last night.

The issue really with Biology is that for the notes to make sense (at least to me), I need to draw pictures, and that takes a little time.

For Spanish, there's the special characters, though I've switched to the international keyboard and that would speed things up.

With precalc, there's fractions and radicals and graphs, etc., that just don't translate well to the web without a lot of time consumption.

The English stuff would be easy though, as I'm writing on the computer anyway and the lectures are pretty much note free. The instructor usually takes a point about the upcoming essay and meanders through analogy after analogy. I posted my first essay on my blog after I got it back, and will probably continue to do that as they are returned to me.

 
Quote (Henry J @ Sep. 17 2008,23:32)
Is the course still on chemistry, or is it getting into actual biology?

Henry


Henry, we're currently hitting the chemical structures of functional groups, so we're sort of making the transition now.

Monday's lecture for instance, was on amino acids, peptide bonds, polypeptides, proteins, and we closed out with a first look at nucleic acids.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2008,17:30   



My notes and thoughts from Biology 111, for Monday, September 8, 2008. The entire series can be found here.

We left off on Friday discussing the second important emergent property of water, the property of temperature moderation.

On Friday, we began with the third emergent property of water that is critical to biology.

3. Solid form of water is less dense than the liquid form

In other words, ice floats. First we took a quick look at what generally defines each state of matter at room temperatures (we didn't delve into plasmas etc)
States of Matter
Solid
Constant Shape, Constant Volume
Liquid
Constant Volume, Changing Shape
Gas
Changing Volume, Changing Shape

So we can say that generally speaking, the state of matter is dependent on its density and the fixity of its bonding. Ordinarily, the solid state of matter is more dense than the liquid state, and this unusual property of water has a very important consequence for life.



Water is its most dense at 4°.

Because ice floats, the top of a body of water will freeze first in the winter. Because of the moderation of temperature, water (in this case, ice) is a good insulator from heat. What this means is that the floating ice on a body of water hinders the escape of heat from below the ice, and the ice then acts as a thermal blanket, preventing the underlying water from freezing solid. This gives life below the ice a place to continue living, even in the coldest of arctic winters.

4. Solvent Ability

Before we can discuss water's ability to act as a solvent, we need to define some terms.

Solution - A homogeneous mixture of 2 or more different substances

Solvent---> The dissolving agent.

Solute---> The substance that dissolves

So when you salt a pot of water on the stove, the water is the solvent, the salt the solute, and the mixture is a solution.

Water has the ability  to dissolve more different substances and in greater quantity than any other solvent. (It's not universal however, or it would dissolve the container that holds it, etc.)

Salinity

Solution    Seawater         Blood
H2O         96.5%        99.1%
Salt          3.5%         0.9%

The difference in salinity between the body and the seawater is why salt water tastes so salty to us, despite the fact that the salt concentration is only 3.5%.



Salt is an ionic compound, and water dissolves it because of the charges of each of the ions involved. Water's polarity is attracted by its slightly charged poles to the charges of the ions. Because the Sodium is positively charged (a cation), the slight negativity at the Oxygen end of a water molecule is attracted to the Sodium. Conversely, the Chlorine ion is negatively charged (an anion), so the slightly positively charged hydrogen end of the water molecule is attracted to the Chlorine. The water sort of forces the salt ions apart through hydrogen bonding, and so the Sodium is separated from the Chlorine.

The solubility of sugars (for instance) works a little differently, and we cover that a bit later on.

Polarity and electrical charge are the keys to water solubility, and water's polarity and hydrogen bonding are what make it such and excellent solvent.


Oils on the other hand, are non polar molecules. That's why oil will separate from water.

Oil doesn't repel water so much as it just doesn't dissolve in water.

We say that Oils are hydrophobic.

Hydrophilic --->Attractive to water (NOT interchangeable with water soluble, though! ---> Cotton is hydrophilic but not water soluble. Cotton and starch are entirely made of cellulose (a sugar). It's components are water soluble. So we can say that being non-water-soluble is an emergent property of cellulose.

Hydrophobic ---> Not attractive to water.

At this point we moved on to pH.



pH ---> A measure of the concentration of Hydrogen ions in a solution.

H+ is a Hydrogen atom that has lost an e-, and what remains is just a p+

We denote H+ concentration thus: [H+] (where the brackets mean "concentration of" whatever is between them, in this case Hydrogen ions).

Some notes about the scale:

The pH scale is a negative logarithmic scale, meaning that each increase of 1 unit on the scale is a decrease of H+ concentration by a factor of 10. So a solution with a pH of 8 has ten times less [H+] relative to [OH-] than distilled water. A solution with a pH of 9 has ten times less [H+] relative to [OH-] than the previous solution, and 100 times less than distilled water.

A small change in the pH number can mean a big change in the balance of [H+] to [OH-]. At 7, [H+] = [OH-], and the solution is said to be neutral. I find it helpful to think of the pH scale as a balance type of scale. When a solution is neutral, it balances evenly between the [H+] and the [OH-].

Thinking about it, this makes sense, as ideally all the H+ and OH- in water should be joined together as H2O.

Also note that the body needs to be regulated relatively closely. Normally, the pH of human blood is between 7.35 and 7.45. A few tenths of a unit of pH one way or the other is fatal. Too many H+ or OH- floating around would make for a very bad day.

One last note: [H+] in distilled water is 10 to the -7 mols/L. This is where the 7 comes from in the pH of water, and the scale is based on that.

1 mole = 6.02 x 10 to the 23. This number is known as Avogadro's number, and is a handy little number to keep in your back pocket.

The lecture ended there, and we picked it up on Wednesday.
     
Quote

From whence came the art:

The first image is of our textbook, Biology, Eighth Edition, by Campbell & Reese et al.

Other images by me and are licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution- NonCommercial- Share Alike 3.0 License.


--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2008,19:52   

Got the exam results back today, and was a bit disappointed. Made some dumb mistakes and wound up with an 88. The highest score in all the sections was a 91, so I know I shouldn't feel too damned bad, but damn it.

Most of the 8 that I missed, I looked at the answer I gave and thought, "What the hell was I thinking????"

One of them was "Which of these is the molecular formula for Maltose?" I forgot to drop the two Hydrogens and the Oxygen from the dehydration synthesis, and answered C12H24O12.

What's worse, the very next question was something like "How does Maltose form from Glucose?", and I answered the question correctly.

Damnit. Some days I want to beat my head on a wall and hope some sense gets osmosified in there.

I did help out in the Science Garden later this morning, though. That was some pleasant down time.

Edited by Lou FCD on Sep. 19 2008,20:53

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2008,20:25   



My notes and thoughts from Biology 111 Lab, for Monday, September 8, 2008. The entire series can be found here.

In this lab we mostly talked about metric system measurements, then went about taking measurements of various things. Honestly, it was pretty mundane stuff for the most part, and I didn't enjoy this lab nearly as much as the first two, though I understand the necessity of it.

We used rulers, calipers, and a scale to take measurements of wooden blocks, dowels, and plastic balls, then calculated their volume and surface area.

We measured the room temperature and the temperature of cold tap water and ice water, and water on a boiling plate, as well as skin temperature.

Then, in the most interesting part of the lab, we measured each other's tibias, and then each other's heights (as well as a real dead guy's tibia). We recorded the tibia length and height of everyone in the lab, and for homework we created scatter plots and trend lines with those numbers.

It was pretty straightforward stuff, really, and well... kinda boring except for the dead guy's bone that Squicky Britches refused to touch. That was a source of mild humor.
Quote
From whence came the art:

The first image is of our textbook, Biology, Eighth Edition, by Campbell &amp; Reese et al.

Other images by me and are licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution- NonCommercial- Share Alike 3.0 License.


--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Henry J



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Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2008,21:16   

And here I thought a mole was a small burrowing mammal... :)

Henry

  
Texas Teach



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2008,21:35   

Quote (Henry J @ Sep. 19 2008,21:16)
And here I thought a mole was a small burrowing mammal... :)

Henry

I had a professor for freshmen chem that had actually gotten someone to make him a pair of plush moles to use in class.  They had Velcro in the middle that held the front and back ends together.  After using them for quite some while to make points about moles and half moles, he dropped the back ends of both into a beaker and asked the class what he was holding.

The answer:  500 mL of mole-asses.

--------------
"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2008,22:01   

Quote (Doc @ today in class)
Hydrogen ion runs into the police station. "Help, help!"

Policeman: "What's wrong?"

Hydrogen ion: "Someone stole my electron!"

Policeman: "Are you sure?"

Hydrogen ion: "Yeah, I'm positive."


--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2008,22:06   

man, that's one of my 3 horrible physics jokes. The only good one is

Cop: "You know how fast you were going?"
Driver: "Not a clue! But I know exactly where I am!"

   
Lou FCD



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 20 2008,13:18   



My notes and thoughts from Biology 111, for Wednesday, September 10, 2008. The entire series can be found here.

In the last lecture, we had left off with a discussion of pH and [H+]. We started this lecture by finishing up with pH.

Remember that pH is a negative log scale, so as [H+] goes up, pH goes down.

We came to definitions right off the bat.

Acid --> Any substance that increases [H+] of a solution. This is accomplished by donation of H+ ions (p+, since a Hydrogen without an e- is just a p+)

HCl ---> H+ + Cl-

Hydrochloric acid will break down in solution into its constituent parts, thus directly increasing the [H+] and lowering the pH of the solution.

Base --> Any substance that decreases [H+] of a solution. This can be accomplished in one of two ways:

Donation of OH- to combine with H+ already in the solution

NaOH ---> Na+ + OH- ---> OH- + H+ ---> H2O

Oven or drain cleaner, Sodium Hydroxide, will break down in solution into its constituent parts, one of which is a hydroxide ion. The hydroxide ion combines with H+ in the solution to make water, thus lowering [H+] and raising the pH of the solution.

Sucking up of H+

NH3 + H+ ---> NH4+

Ammonia, NH3, will pick up an H+ and become NH4+, thus directly decreasing [H+], and raising the pH of the solution.

Then we moved on to Chapter 4: Carbon and the Molecular Diversity of Life



Organic Compounds ---> Carbon based compounds

Hydrocarbons ---> Hydrogen and Carbon, joined together in non polar covalent bonds. There is a lot of potential energy in these bonds due to the maximum distance from the nucleus of the shared valence e- pairs. These bonds also make for hydrophobic molecules, due to the non-polarity.



Hydrocarbons are built on a skeleton of these Hydrogen and Carbon bonds, with other stuff added on. Remember that Carbon has four unpaired valence electrons, so it can form four covalent bonds. Hydrogen has one unpaired valence electron, so it can form one covalent bond.

This makes for a very nice set-up between Carbon and Hydrogen, where the carbon atom can form bonds with four Hydrogens, or three Hydrogens and another carbon, or two Hydrogens and two other Carbon atoms. Using this technique, nature can and does form chains of Carbon atoms surrounded by Hydrogens. These are called hydrocarbons, and form a skeleton upon which nature can build almost infinitely complex molecules. We can even think of the surrounding Hydrogens as plug covers for interchangeable parts.



Hydrocarbons form non-polar covalent bonds, and since the shared e- are equally far from each of the nuclei of the two atoms, that gives the bond its high potential energy. That's why Hydrocarbons are so attractive as fuels. There's lots of bang for the buck.

Of course, the big problem is that it takes about 300,000,000 years to make Hydrocarbons, due to the fact that they're made from decayed organic material (i.e. dead plants and animals). As a species, we're using the planet's available Hydrocarbons much faster than they are being made. It doesn't take a genius to work out the math here.

There are four main classes of organic compounds in living things that Bio 111 is going to cover.

Carbohydrates ---> C, H, O
Lipids ---> C, H, O (sometimes N & P)

Proteins ---> C, H, O, N, S

Nucleic Acids ---> C, H, O, N, P

Functional Groups

1. Hydroxyl Group

A Hydroxyl Group, is just an OH- that replaces a Hydrogen atom as in this Hydrocarbon.



Ethane is a Hydrocarbon molecule, and by exchanging one Hydrogen for an OH-, we change it to ethanol. Ethanol is better known as "grain alcohol" or "ethyl alcohol". Note that the ending "ol" always denotes an alchol. Note too that we keep the Hydrogen in the OH- portion of the molecule separate from the other Hydrogens in the molecular formula, to point out that it's not just another Hydrogen hanging off the main skeleton, but is associated with the Oxygen.

2. Carboxyl Group



A Carboxyl Group is made up of a Carbon, two Oxygens, and a Hydrogen, in the form COOH.

When latching onto a Hydrocarbon skeleton, it will ditch the H+, leaving it with a Carbon single bonded to a negatively charged Oxygen, and double bonded to another Oxygen. Because it donates that H+, it is an acid (lowers pH of a solution), and the negative charge makes it very attractive to water (hydrophilic).

3. Amino Group



An amino group is NH2, a Nitrogen and two Hydrogens. It will pick up an H+ from a solution, making it a base, and also hydrophilic.

4. Phospate Group



A Phosphate Group is a Phosphorus bonded with two negatively charged Oxygen atoms, one regular Oxygen atom, and double bonded with one Oxygen atom. It's molecular formula is PO42- or sometimes OPO32-, to separate the double bonded Oxygen.

Here is where the lecture ended. Although I asked in a later lecture about the odd bondings here that seem to break the rules that we earlier set forth, Doc basically said, "It's complicated, and you don't need to know that for this class, though you'll learn about it in a Chemistry class if you take one." Ok, fair enough.

Quote
From whence came the art:

The first image is of our textbook, Biology, Eighth Edition, by Campbell &amp; Reese et al.

Other images by me and are licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution- NonCommercial- Share Alike 3.0 License.


Edited by Lou FCD on Sep. 21 2008,17:58

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Texas Teach



Posts: 2084
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 20 2008,14:08   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 20 2008,13:18)
Here is where the lecture ended. Although I asked in a later lecture about the odd bondings here that seem to break the rules that we earlier set forth, Doc basically said, "It's complicated, and you don't need to know that for this class, though you'll learn about it in a Chemistry class if you take one." Ok, fair enough.

This is close to what I tell the introductory students in my physical science class.  For the more clever ones, I also point out that Lewis' dot diagrams are a lovely model, especially for electron bookkeeping, but the real world doesn't care whether our little models work out neatly.  (The patch on his model is to have the one extra bond spread around each of the positions, which lowers the energy.)

--------------
"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 20 2008,18:10   

Quote (Texas Teach @ Sep. 20 2008,15:08)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 20 2008,13:18)
Here is where the lecture ended. Although I asked in a later lecture about the odd bondings here that seem to break the rules that we earlier set forth, Doc basically said, "It's complicated, and you don't need to know that for this class, though you'll learn about it in a Chemistry class if you take one." Ok, fair enough.

This is close to what I tell the introductory students in my physical science class.  For the more clever ones, I also point out that Lewis' dot diagrams are a lovely model, especially for electron bookkeeping, but the real world doesn't care whether our little models work out neatly.  (The patch on his model is to have the one extra bond spread around each of the positions, which lowers the energy.)

The Intelligent Designer is Microsoft?

Geez, that explains a lot!

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 21 2008,00:21   



My notes and thoughts from Biology 111, for Monday, September 8, 2008. The entire series can be found here.


There are four main classes of organic compounds in living things that Bio 111 is going to cover.

Carbohydrates* —> C, H, O
Lipids —> C, H, O (sometimes N & P)
Proteins* —> C, H, O, N, S
Nucleic Acids* —> C, H, O, N, P


* Carbohydrates, Proteins, and Nucleic Acids are Macromolecules, meaning "really honkin' big".

1. Carbohydrates - Sugars - all "ose" endings mean "sugar".

"Carbon Water"

They have a C:H:O ratio of 1:2:1, so the basic carbohydrate formula would be CH2O

a) monosaccharides --> "one sugar" - these are the simple sugars, and contain between 3 - 7 C atoms in them.

A Few Simple Sugars

C Atoms     Molecular Formula     Group Name
3               C3H6O3                       triose
5               C5H10O5                     pentose
6               C6H12O6                     hexose



We're going to stick with the hexose group for a bit, because it's pretty common, and useful to illustrate several things in biology.



Because of the interchangeability of parts, a compound with the formula C6H12O6 (for instance) can actually wind up being arranged in more than one way. When compounds are arranged differently but share a molecular formula, they are called isomers ("same part"). Glucose, Fructose, and Galactose are three simple sugars, all hexose sugars, but have their atoms arranged differently. They are isomers that organisms use for energy.

Each of these hexose isomers have 7 C-H bonds (they are hydrocarbons, and remember that C-H bonds are nonpolar covalent bonds, having a great deal of potential energy)

Monosaccharides often rearrange themselves a little bit from the structural diagrams to the right, and fold in on themselves to make a hexagonal shape. There are illustrations of the process in the textbook.

b) Disaccharides --> "two sugars" - these are simply two sugars linked by a covalent bond.

Since all the bonding places are taken up by atoms in the monosaccarides, a place needs to be make for the link between the two simple sugars. This is accomplished by a dehydration synthesis, also known as a condensation reaction.

The OH- at a place on one sugar will be attracted to the H+ on another sugar. They will each leave their parent sugar molecule and combine to form a water molecule, leaving an unpaired electron in the valence shell of one Carbon in each of the sugar molecules.



This is where the hook-up occurs.

When a galactose and a glucose combine, the resulting disaccharide is called lactose and is found in milk.

When two glucose molecules combine, the resulting disaccharide is called maltose, and is used in brewing.

We can't use disaccharides for energy, so our bodies add water back into the disaccharide, in a reverse process known as hydrolysis. This breaks the disaccharide back into two monosaccharides, something our body can use for energy.

c) Polysaccharides --> "many sugars" - many monosaccharides linked by covalent bonds. These are macromolecules, and can be hundreds to thousands of monosaccharides linked together.

Polymer --> "many parts" --> large molecule made of many small and similar molecules.

Monomer --> "one part" --> one of the small molecules.

Some polymers of glucose are used by organisms to store energy, some to do other things, like build structure.

Plants use starch for energy storage.

Animals use glycogen for energy storage.

Plants use cellulose for structure.

An emergent property of these polymers is that they are not water soluble. This is the means by which they store the energy inside cells (otherwise they would just dissolve inside the cell which is mostly water).

They are stuck inside the cell until needed, much like a school bus brought in pieces into a classroom and then assembled. In order for the organism to use the energy stored therein, the polymer must first be broken down by hydrolysis.

In order to digest cellulose, water and cellulase are needed. Animals don't make cellulase in their bodies, and so can't digest cellulose. Hearkening back to the termite lab, remember that termites subsist on a diet of wood. Wood is made of cellulose. How do they do that? They depend on little microorganisms to digest the cellulose for them.

Breakdown of any -ose (sugar) is facilitated by a corresponding -ase. Breakdown of lactose needs lactase, etc.

2. Lipids --> Of our four classes with which we began this lecture, lipids are the only ones that are not macromolecules.

It's a diverse class that includes fats and oils, steroids, and phospholipids. Fats and oils are long chains, while steroids are ring structured.

This class is made of mostly C and H, with just a little O. Fats and oils are nonpolar molecules, and so are not water soluble.

Fats and oils = triglyceride --> 1 glycol + 3 fatty acids. The difference between fats and oils is density, and I'll have lovely little drawings of them for you in the next lecture.

Edited to correct the ate/ase mistake pointed out by keiths
           
Quote

From whence came the art:

The first image is of our textbook, Biology, Eighth Edition, by Campbell & Reese et al.

Other images by me and are licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution- NonCommercial- Share Alike 3.0 License.


Edited by Lou FCD on Sep. 21 2008,17:48

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Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
keiths



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 21 2008,01:45   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 20 2008,22:21)
In order to digest cellulose, water and cellulate are needed. Animals don't make cellulate in their bodies, and so can't digest cellulose.

Lou, I think you mean "cellulase" rather than "cellulate".
Quote
Breakdown of any -ose (sugar) is facilitated by a corresponding -ate. Breakdown of lactose needs lactate, etc.

Ditto here.  You really want to say
Quote
Breakdown of any -ose (sugar) is facilitated by a corresponding -ase. Breakdown of lactose needs lactase, etc.

The distinction is important.  A lactate is completely different from a lactase, for example.

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
keiths



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 21 2008,01:49   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 20 2008,22:21)

This is where the hook-up occurs.


Dig the dehydration sex.  But why does she get to have an orgasm while he doesn't?

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 21 2008,06:12   

Quote (keiths @ Sep. 21 2008,02:45)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 20 2008,22:21)
In order to digest cellulose, water and cellulate are needed. Animals don't make cellulate in their bodies, and so can't digest cellulose.

Lou, I think you mean "cellulase" rather than "cellulate".
 
Quote
Breakdown of any -ose (sugar) is facilitated by a corresponding -ate. Breakdown of lactose needs lactate, etc.

Ditto here.  You really want to say
 
Quote
Breakdown of any -ose (sugar) is facilitated by a corresponding -ase. Breakdown of lactose needs lactase, etc.

The distinction is important.  A lactate is completely different from a lactase, for example.

You're right. It was late.

Thanks for the correction.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 21 2008,06:23   

Quote (keiths @ Sep. 21 2008,02:49)
Dig the dehydration sex.  But why does she get to have an orgasm while he doesn't?

Because I ran out of gas and the artistic editing ended prematurely.

XVIVO better look out. There's a new animator in town.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Texas Teach



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 21 2008,08:09   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 21 2008,06:23)
XVIVO better look out. There's a new animator in town.

Better tell ERV to keep an eye on it for you, or it might appear in one of the Dr Dr's talks.  Something about how materialist biochemistry leads to corruption of our youth.

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Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 21 2008,11:39   

Quote (Texas Teach @ Sep. 21 2008,09:09)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 21 2008,06:23)
XVIVO better look out. There's a new animator in town.

Better tell ERV to keep an eye on it for you, or it might appear in one of the Dr Dr's talks.  Something about how materialist biochemistry leads to corruption of our youth.

Well, it is licensed under the CC, so as long as they abode by the terms of that...

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Spottedwind



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 22 2008,08:05   

I'm so glad you are continuing these...except that this is the area of biology that I was always weakest. :)  So it's probably actually a good thing to go over these basics again.

I admit, I'm an organism (and above) level person.  I just understand that more and it fascinates me more.  Not that the chemical, cellular, etc level isn't amazing...I just don't follow it as well.

Also, to all those adding in the discussion...thanks to you too.  The extra info and clarification is great.

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2008,06:36   

I'm trying to get them caught up, Spottedwind.

I noticed that on my exam, there was a significant cluster to the questions I missed, and that cluster was in the area of notes I hadn't put online yet.

Copying the notes really does seem to help.

I was disappointed: I got an 88. The highest score in all three sections was a 91, and the median score was in the 60s. One of the questions I missed was the molecular formula of maltose. What did I do wrong? I forgot to take out the water molecule from the dehydration synthesis.

Hence the graphic above that will ensure that I never ever repeat that mistake. The sugar porn has a purpose, and was not at all gratuitous.

At the moment, we're actually doing the tour of the cell, and as I sat through the lecture taking notes, I couldn't help but be reminded of The Inner Life of the Cell, and as Doc explained the different functions of different parts, I could visualize parts of the animation. I kept thinking, "Oh! so THAT'S what that thingy was that did thus and so".

The images were especially strong in my mind when we started talking about the Endoplasmic Reticulum, the Transport Vesicles, and the Golgi Apparatus. In a way, it was kind of odd to have a picture in my mind of what was going on before I could name the parts, rather than the usual way of naming things and then seeing pictures of them.

I <3 XVIVO.

Lab yesterday was kind of cool, in that it was the first time we got to use microscopes. (We have monocular compound light microscopes, fyi.) It was sort of a let-down when I was looking at my cheek cells, though. I guess I was expecting to see all the cool stuff we had been discussing in lecture yesterday morning. I saw a circle with a blob in it.

:(

WE NEED MORE POWER SCOTTY! REVERSE THE DAMNED POLARITY OR SOMETHIN', WILL YA'?

Edit to add: On the upside, I also got my second English essay back yesterday - I got an A+

Edited by Lou FCD on Sep. 23 2008,07:38

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2008,20:16   



My notes and thoughts from Biology 111, for Monday, September 15, 2008. The entire series can be found here.

The class started with a reminder that the next class period (Wednesday the 17<sup>th</sup>) would be our first exam.

Then there was a short review of Hydrocarbons generally, and carbohydrates specifically, just to get us back to the place where we had left off.

We picked up this lecture with our discussion of Lipids.

2. Lipids

Triglycerides ---> Fats &amp; Oils



Glycerol + 3 Fatty Acids

When a glycerol molecule, C<sub>3</sub>H<sub>5</sub>(OH)<sub>3</sub> (the vertical part on the left of the image), picks up three fatty acids (the long strings of C and H on the right), they combine to form a triglyceride.

Triglycerides are fats and oils. If the long fatty acid chains all remain straight, each carbon bonding with two Hydrogen atoms and its two neighbor Carbon atoms, the triglyceride can pack densely, and thus becomes a solid at room temperature. This is a saturated fat.



If one or more of the long fatty acids develops a "kink", ie two Carbons double bond and dump a Hydrogen, the stack can not pack as densely, and thus becomes a liquid at room temperature. This is an unsaturated oil. If there is one kink, it's a monounsaturated oil, and if more than one, it's a polyunsaturated oil.

Ta-da. It was kind of cool to suddenly understand the difference between them after having heard the terms for so long in reference to food labels.

We can measure energy in units called calories.

Because of fat's high percentage of hydrocarbons (all along those fatty acid chains), it has a high caloric content. For comparison, a gram of fat contains 9 calories, while a gram of carbohydrates contains 4 calories. Remember that those Hydrogen - Carbon bonds are high energy content because of the non-polar covalent bond.

Some properties of solid fats:

They are good insulators. (whales, walrus, Rush Limbaugh, etc. are good examples.)

They also make good shock absorbers. Vital organs are wrapped in fat, especially where not protected by bone.

3. Proteins

Life on earth is protein based.



Proteins are macromolecules. They are polymers of amino acids.

On the left of this structural diagram of an amino acid is the amino functional group, and on the right, the carboxyl functional group. Note the Oxygen and the Hydroxide dangling off the end there. Those two really make an amino acid hydrophillic.

Note the big R in a circle. Checking the Periodic Table, you'll note that R is not an element. R is used as a place holder for whatever plug and play molecule might go there in any given amino acid. There are hundreds of different amino acids, depending on what gets plugged in there. Living things use twenty different amino acids to make proteins.

The R is what makes each of them different.

Amino Acids

There are three groups of amino acids.

Nine of them are nonpolar ---> They are made almost entirely of C and H

Six of them are polar.

Five of them are electrically charged  ---> two are negatively charged, and three positively charged.

There's a nice amino acid chart on page 79 of our text book that shows these amino acids in their groups, and it will be important all semester. I won't bother to reproduce it here, though.



When two amino acids hook up, it's by a dehydration synthesis, similar to what we saw before in sugars. In this case though, we call it a peptide bond.

When two amino acids form a peptide bond, it's called a dipeptide. three is a tripeptide, and more than three is a polypeptide.

Long chains of amino acids, about when they reach 100 or so in a chain (not a hard and fast number), are called proteins. The average length of a protein in the human body is about 400 amino acids long.

There are three levels of protein structure that we looked at:

A) Primary Structure ---> proteins are a sequence of amino acids. A dipeptide can have 400 different possible primary structures (20 possible amino acids in the first position, 20 in the second = 20 X 20 = 400). A tripeptide can have 8,000 (20 X 20 X 20), a polypeptide of four amino acids 160,000 (20 X 20 X 20 X 20), etc. Remember, with proteins we're talking about at least about 100 amino acids long. The sequence of amino acids is critical at each and every location.

B) Secondary Structure ---> Hydrogen Bonding causes kinking, curling, twisting, etc, causing a protein to look like a twisted or knotted slinky.

C) Tertiary Structure ---> Complex 3D shape caused by the R groups interacting with each other and with the water solution in which they reside. The long molecules are electrically charged in places, polar in places and nonpolar in other places. The nonpolar parts are hydrophobic, the polar parts hydrophilic. So the nonpolar parts tend to wind up in the middle, while the polar parts and the fully charged parts tend to wind up around the outside, close to the water.

The end shape of a protein is determined by its primary structure and the Hydrogen Bonds, and the shape determines its function, much like the shape of a key determines which lock it will open.

Denaturation, the unwinding of the protein, is a result of broken Hydrogen bonds. Extreme heat or pH will denature a protein, and since shape determines function, a denatured protein will cease to function properly (or at all). High fever for instance (body temp of 42 or 43°) will denature the body's proteins and cause death. Death is bad.

Functions of Proteins

Body structure ---> Much of the body's structure is formed by proteins.

Contraction ---> Contraction of muscles (how you move) is a function of proteins

Enzymes ---> are proteins

Transport of molecules through the body

Hormones ---> insulin, growth hormone

Receptors ---> I apparently forgot to write down what Doc said about this.

These are just a few of the many functions of proteins.

4. Nucleic Acids

Macromolecules ---> Biggest of organic molecules

Polymers of nucleotides

pentose, phosphate group, nitrogenous base

Two types of Nucleic Acids ----> Ribonucleic Acid (RNA) and Deoxyribonucleic Acid (DNA)

We'll discuss these more later on, but here's where the lecture ended.

The following class period was our first exam, so there were no lecture notes for Wednesday, September 17<sup>th</sup>. We picked it up on Friday, September 19<sup>th</sup>.

Quote
From whence came the art:

The first image is of our textbook, Biology, Eighth Edition, by Campbell &amp; Reese et al.

Other images by me and are licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution- NonCommercial- Share Alike 3.0 License.


--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2008,23:25   

Quote
Some properties of solid fats:

They are good insulators. (whales, walrus, Rush Limbaugh, etc. are good examples.)


You came close to owing me a new keyboard with that one. :p

Quote
A dipeptide can have 400 different possible primary structures (20 possible amino acids in the first position, 20 in the second = 20 X 20 = 400). A tripeptide can have 8,000 (20 X 20 X 20), a polypeptide of four amino acids 160,000 (20 X 20 X 20 X 20), etc.


What if one protein is identical to another one flipped around? Seems like that formula would double count the ones that aren't their own inverse. (e.g., ABCAB and BACBA, where the letters are arbitrary amino acid units, are really the same polypeptide.)

Henry

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,05:36   

Quote (Henry J @ Sep. 24 2008,00:25)
Quote
Some properties of solid fats:

They are good insulators. (whales, walrus, Rush Limbaugh, etc. are good examples.)


You came close to owing me a new keyboard with that one. :p

Quote
A dipeptide can have 400 different possible primary structures (20 possible amino acids in the first position, 20 in the second = 20 X 20 = 400). A tripeptide can have 8,000 (20 X 20 X 20), a polypeptide of four amino acids 160,000 (20 X 20 X 20 X 20), etc.


What if one protein is identical to another one flipped around? Seems like that formula would double count the ones that aren't their own inverse. (e.g., ABCAB and BACBA, where the letters are arbitrary amino acid units, are really the same polypeptide.)

Henry

I had the same thought, Henry. I don't think the point was a specific number, but rather a simplified illustration of just how important and varied the sequence is when dealing with proteins. We certainly weren't tested on the exact number of possible sequences of amino acids in a dipeptide.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
fusilier



Posts: 252
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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,07:13   

Quote (Henry J @ Sep. 24 2008,00:25)
{snip}


What if one protein is identical to another one flipped around? Seems like that formula would double count the ones that aren't their own inverse. (e.g., ABCAB and BACBA, where the letters are arbitrary amino acid units, are really the same polypeptide.)

Henry

Close, but not quite.

If a polypeptide is a real palindrome - abcdeedcba, for example - then, yeah, you just have the same compound.  Your example, however, is of two entirely different compounds, because you must read from only one direction.

I like to use the example of the elephant parade in Disney's "Dumbo."  Amino acids have a trunk, the -COOH end, and a tail, the HHN- end.  A peptide bond is solely a trunk-to-tail arrangement, and you must read the parade starting with the first elephant - the one whose trunk is not connected to another elephant's tail.  (It's perfectly OK to call the amino end the trunk and the acid end the tail, I'm just giving an illustration.)

"Nutrasweet" brand artificial sweetener is a dipeptide called aspartame, see http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/aspartame/aspartameh.html . If you reverse the order of the amino acids, then you have an entirely different compound which does not have the same chemical properties.

Just like at the end of "Dumbo," when the original boss-lady elephant is at the rear end of the parade and Dumbo's Mom is now the leader.

Same elephants, but a different parade.

ETA:  hunh, I can't get a "subscript" tag to work.  Oh well.

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fusilier
James 2:24

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,07:19   

Why not?

Use square instead of angle brackets...

Wh<sub>y</sub> no<sup>t</sup>?

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,09:09   

Quote (fusilier @ Sep. 24 2008,08:13)
I like to use the example of the elephant parade in Disney's "Dumbo."  Amino acids have a trunk, the -COOH end, and a tail, the HHN- end.  A peptide bond is solely a trunk-to-tail arrangement, and you must read the parade starting with the first elephant - the one whose trunk is not connected to another elephant's tail.  (It's perfectly OK to call the amino end the trunk and the acid end the tail, I'm just giving an illustration.)

Oh, right, because



would not be the same as



because the R1 in the first image would be close to the acid end, while in the second it would be close to the amino end of the dipeptide, giving the two completely different shapes, and thus functions.

Edited by Lou FCD on Sep. 24 2008,10:09

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,09:10   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Sep. 24 2008,08:19)
Wh<sub>y</sub> no<sup>t</sup>?

Use square instead of angle brackets...

Wh<sub>y</sub> no<sup>t</sup>?

When you hit the preview button, the bbcode has been changed to html code, Wesley. Same when you hit submit, then try to go back and edit.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Tracy P. Hamilton



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,10:08   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 23 2008,20:16)


If one or more of the long fatty acids develops a "kink", ie two Carbons double bond and dump a Hydrogen, the stack can not pack as densely, and thus becomes a liquid at room temperature. This is an unsaturated oil. If there is one kink, it's a monounsaturated oil, and if more than one, it's a polyunsaturated oil.



Trans fats are like the unsaturated one you mention, except that the double bond does not introduce a kink, so trans fat does not lower lipid density like the good unsaturated oils.  The health risk of trans fat is actually higher than saturated fat.

Quote



Denaturation, the unwinding of the protein, is a result of broken Hydrogen bonds. Extreme heat or pH will denature a protein, and since shape determines function, a denatured protein will cease to function properly (or at all). High fever for instance (body temp of 42 or 43°) will denature the body's proteins and cause death. Death is bad.



I find denaturing of protein at 42 hard to believe! It is possible I suppose.

 
Quote


Functions of Proteins

Receptors ---> I apparently forgot to write down what Doc said about this.



Receptors are proteins that "receive" ligand molecules and in turn produce a change in the receptor that produces a signal of some sort.  Regulation is done via the production of these molecules.  

An example is G-protein coupled receptors.

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"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

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Tracy P. Hamilton



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,10:19   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 20 2008,13:18)
4. Phospate Group



A Phosphate Group is a Phosphorus bonded with two negatively charged Oxygen atoms, one regular Oxygen atom, and double bonded with one Oxygen atom. It's molecular formula is PO<sub>4</sub><sup>2-</sup> or sometimes OPO<sub>3</sub><sup>2-</sup>, to separate the double bonded Oxygen.

Here is where the lecture ended. Although I asked in a later lecture about the odd bondings here that seem to break the rules that we earlier set forth, Doc basically said, "It's complicated, and you don't need to know that for this class, though you'll learn about it in a Chemistry class if you take one." Ok, fair enough.


Chemical education discourages the use of the double bond in phosphate, and in sulfate groups as well.  As you noticed, it violates the octet rule, and does so unnecessarily!  There are some molecules where we chemists violate the rule out of necessity, such as having five atoms bonded to P, which requires 5 bonds.

The double bonds in phosphate and sulfate are historical, hence the biologists still use it a lot because that is how they learned it.  :O

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"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,10:28   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 21 2008,00:21)
In order to digest cellulose, water and cellulase are needed. Animals don't make cellulase in their bodies, and so can't digest cellulose. Hearkening back to the termite lab, remember that termites subsist on a diet of wood. Wood is made of cellulose. How do they do that? They depend on little microorganisms to digest the cellulose for them.

Some animals do produce cellulase!  Termites are an example.

 
Quote

Scientific Correspondence

Nature 394, 330-331 (23 July 1998) | doi:10.1038/28527
A cellulase gene of termite origin

Hirofumi Watanabe1, Hiroaki Noda1, Gaku Tokuda2 and Nathan Lo3

The traditional view of cellulose digestion in animals is that they cannot produce their own cellulase, and so rely on gut microorganisms to hydrolyse cellulose. A classic example of this symbiosis is that between phylogenetically lower termites and the unicellular organisms (protists) that colonize their hindguts: cellulose fermented to acetate by the protists can be used as an energy source by the termite1. There is evidence for the production of endogenous cellulase components by termites and other wood-feeding insects2; however, an unambiguous origin for such enzymes1 has not been established, to our knowledge, until now. Here we describe the first insect cellulase-endoding gene to be identified, RsEG, which encodes an endo-beta-1,4-glucanase (EC 3.2.1.4) in the termite Reticulitermes speratus


--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Henry J



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Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,11:04   

Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Sep. 24 2008,09:19)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 20 2008,13:18)
4. Phospate Group



A Phosphate Group is a Phosphorus bonded with two negatively charged Oxygen atoms, one regular Oxygen atom, and double bonded with one Oxygen atom. It's molecular formula is PO<sub>4</sub><sup>2-</sup> or sometimes OPO<sub>3</sub><sup>2-</sup>, to separate the double bonded Oxygen.

Here is where the lecture ended. Although I asked in a later lecture about the odd bondings here that seem to break the rules that we earlier set forth, Doc basically said, "It's complicated, and you don't need to know that for this class, though you'll learn about it in a Chemistry class if you take one." Ok, fair enough.


Chemical education discourages the use of the double bond in phosphate, and in sulfate groups as well.  As you noticed, it violates the octet rule, and does so unnecessarily!  There are some molecules where we chemists violate the rule out of necessity, such as having five atoms bonded to P, which requires 5 bonds.

The double bonds in phosphate and sulfate are historical, hence the biologists still use it a lot because that is how they learned it.  :O

So is the proper way to do it to put a - sign on three of the O's and a + sign on the P?

  
Louis



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,11:20   

Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Sep. 24 2008,16:19)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 20 2008,13:18)
4. Phospate Group



A Phosphate Group is a Phosphorus bonded with two negatively charged Oxygen atoms, one regular Oxygen atom, and double bonded with one Oxygen atom. It's molecular formula is PO<sub>4</sub><sup>2-</sup> or sometimes OPO<sub>3</sub><sup>2-</sup>, to separate the double bonded Oxygen.

Here is where the lecture ended. Although I asked in a later lecture about the odd bondings here that seem to break the rules that we earlier set forth, Doc basically said, "It's complicated, and you don't need to know that for this class, though you'll learn about it in a Chemistry class if you take one." Ok, fair enough.


Chemical education discourages the use of the double bond in phosphate, and in sulfate groups as well.  As you noticed, it violates the octet rule, and does so unnecessarily!  There are some molecules where we chemists violate the rule out of necessity, such as having five atoms bonded to P, which requires 5 bonds.

The double bonds in phosphate and sulfate are historical, hence the biologists still use it a lot because that is how they learned it.  :O

So are you saying there's no pi character to the sulfur-oxygen or phosphorous-oxygen "double" bond?

If so I beg to differ!

The bond lengths alone demonstrate p pi-d pi bonding.

And now a brief diversion:

For those not of the Secret Chemist Club, here's a brief and very simplified explanation:

The chemical drawings we use are simplified pictures of what's really going on, and we tend to use one resonance canonical as opposed to a matrix containing all of them, but as with so many things that's a convenient shorthand. Lou's prof was right, in a chemistry class you'd learn a LOT more about it.

Here's a very simple reason why these things can get complicated(ish): resonance.

If you look at the picture below and imagine that the red oxygen is an isotopically labelled atom (i.e. 18O instead of "normal" 16O) you can see that the label is scrambled by the resonance of the double bond in the phosphate. The blue arrows denote movement of electrons, for the uninitiated! (Even this is a gross oversimplification)



The reason this works is, simply put, because not all of the bonds are going to the outer (valence) orbitals of phosphorous. The similarity in energy between the full p orbitals oxygen and the large and available empty d orbitals on phosphorus/sulfur allow a "double" bond to form.

Another classic example of this is in phosphorous/sulfur double bonds to carbon. There is, to some extent, restricted rotation about the "double" bond, indicating it's pi character. Granted this pi character is a lot less than a carbon-carbon double bond, but it is sufficient to noticeably (i.e. chemically and spectroscopically) restrict rotation about the bond.

Also because pi bonds tend to be shorter than the corresponding sigma bond, the multiplicity of the bond (i.e. single, double etc) and thus to some degree the nature (sigma, pi) of the bond can be spectroscopically determined. Obviously this also has implications for bond strength, i.e. multiple bonds tend to be stronger than the corresponding single bond. This is because you have a sigma and a pi bond forming your double bond, as opposed to just a sigma bond forming your single bond.

And look I did that almost without referring to orbitals or hybridisation or overlap or electronegativity or...... oh dear! I get a prize for that surely?

Wikipedia on sigma and pi bonding. Not brilliant explanations actually, but enough to get an idea. The diagrams suck mighty big IMO. Almost worth me registering to edit them.......hmmmm that way madness and no job lies!

If absolutely necessary I'll explain bonding in a bit more detail. Be warned: I'll even use maths if necessary, and the word "quantum" may feature.

Shock, horror!

Louis

Edited to fix my pi

--------------
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Louis



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,11:22   

Quote (Henry J @ Sep. 24 2008,17:04)
Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Sep. 24 2008,09:19)
 
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 20 2008,13:18)
4. Phospate Group



A Phosphate Group is a Phosphorus bonded with two negatively charged Oxygen atoms, one regular Oxygen atom, and double bonded with one Oxygen atom. It's molecular formula is PO<sub>4</sub><sup>2-</sup> or sometimes OPO<sub>3</sub><sup>2-</sup>, to separate the double bonded Oxygen.

Here is where the lecture ended. Although I asked in a later lecture about the odd bondings here that seem to break the rules that we earlier set forth, Doc basically said, "It's complicated, and you don't need to know that for this class, though you'll learn about it in a Chemistry class if you take one." Ok, fair enough.


Chemical education discourages the use of the double bond in phosphate, and in sulfate groups as well.  As you noticed, it violates the octet rule, and does so unnecessarily!  There are some molecules where we chemists violate the rule out of necessity, such as having five atoms bonded to P, which requires 5 bonds.

The double bonds in phosphate and sulfate are historical, hence the biologists still use it a lot because that is how they learned it.  :O

So is the proper way to do it to put a - sign on three of the O's and a + sign on the P?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Well, yes-ish. Well, no. Maybe. Ylides!

The best approach is to realise that chemical drawing are massive oversimplifications.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,11:50   

Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Sep. 24 2008,11:28)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 21 2008,00:21)
In order to digest cellulose, water and cellulase are needed. Animals don't make cellulase in their bodies, and so can't digest cellulose. Hearkening back to the termite lab, remember that termites subsist on a diet of wood. Wood is made of cellulose. How do they do that? They depend on little microorganisms to digest the cellulose for them.

Some animals do produce cellulase!  Termites are an example.

 
Quote

Scientific Correspondence

Nature 394, 330-331 (23 July 1998) | doi:10.1038/28527
A cellulase gene of termite origin

Hirofumi Watanabe1, Hiroaki Noda1, Gaku Tokuda2 and Nathan Lo3

The traditional view of cellulose digestion in animals is that they cannot produce their own cellulase, and so rely on gut microorganisms to hydrolyse cellulose. A classic example of this symbiosis is that between phylogenetically lower termites and the unicellular organisms (protists) that colonize their hindguts: cellulose fermented to acetate by the protists can be used as an energy source by the termite1. There is evidence for the production of endogenous cellulase components by termites and other wood-feeding insects2; however, an unambiguous origin for such enzymes1 has not been established, to our knowledge, until now. Here we describe the first insect cellulase-endoding gene to be identified, RsEG, which encodes an endo-beta-1,4-glucanase (EC 3.2.1.4) in the termite Reticulitermes speratus

See, Doc specifically talked about the microcritters producing the cellulase for the termites. I'll have to point him to that.

Thanks for your input here, by the way. I appreciate the assists.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,11:57   

Louis,

When you have time, I'd appreciate a bit more on that. Obviously not a rush as it's not for Bio class, but for my personal edification.

Thanks

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Louis



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,12:05   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 24 2008,17:57)
Louis,

When you have time, I'd appreciate a bit more on that. Obviously not a rush as it's not for Bio class, but for my personal edification.

Thanks

No worries. Anything specific? Or just "general principles of chemical bonding"?

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,12:16   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 24 2008,13:05)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 24 2008,17:57)
Louis,

When you have time, I'd appreciate a bit more on that. Obviously not a rush as it's not for Bio class, but for my personal edification.

Thanks

No worries. Anything specific? Or just "general principles of chemical bonding"?

Louis

General principles in general, and the specific case above re: P specifically, would be grand.

I'm not getting what you're saying, perhaps because I don't understand p and s orbitals, etc.

I had a Chem class back in the dark ages (95ish), but that's a long time gone, frankly.

ETA: In other words, I can't understand the sentences because I don't know all the words, if that helps.

Edited by Lou FCD on Sep. 24 2008,13:17

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
midwifetoad



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,12:53   

Quote
In other words, I can't understand the sentences because I don't know all the words, if that helps.

Life would be so much more enjoyable if we could hear this said more often. Whenever it's true, for instance.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,13:07   

Quote
I'm not getting what you're saying, perhaps because I don't understand p and s orbitals, etc.


An orbital can have 1 or 2 electrons.
The 1st shell of an atom has only an s orbital.
That's all H and He (1-2) have.
The 2nd shell has an s and three p orbitals.
Li and Be (3-4) use only the s orbital of their 2nd shell.
B through Ne (5-10) add electrons to their 2nd shell p orbitals.
IIRC, B, C, and N (5-7) add 1 electron to each p orbital,
and O, F and Ne (8-10) add the 2nd electron to each of those p's.
Na through Ar (11-18) do the same for the third shell.
K and Ca (19-20) add electrons to the 4th shell s orbital.
Then it gets interesting: Sc through Zn (21-30) add electrons to the d orbital of their 3rd shell, even though they're in the 4th period.

The 1st shell has only the s orbital.
The 2nd shell has s and three p's.
The 3rd has s, p, and d.
The 4th has s, p, d, and f.

The one s orbital of a shell can hold up to 2 electrons.
The three p orbitals of a shell can hold up to 6.
The five d orbitals of a shell, up to 10.
The seven f orbitals of a shell, up to 14.
I wonder if they've picked a letter for the next type of orbital, which I presume would appear in elements 121 and up.

http://www.webelements.com/

  
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,13:16   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 24 2008,13:16)
I'm not getting what you're saying, perhaps because I don't understand p and s orbitals, etc.

The bond shapes are kinda cool. s is like a basketball, p is like a dumbell, sigma, pi, hybrids like sp3 etc. It's usually somewhere around chapter 1 or 2 of an Organic Chem textbook. Not necessary for your bio class, but kinda interesting if you have a free afternoon.

   
Louis



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,14:00   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 24 2008,18:16)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 24 2008,13:05)
 
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 24 2008,17:57)
Louis,

When you have time, I'd appreciate a bit more on that. Obviously not a rush as it's not for Bio class, but for my personal edification.

Thanks

No worries. Anything specific? Or just "general principles of chemical bonding"?

Louis

General principles in general, and the specific case above re: P specifically, would be grand.

I'm not getting what you're saying, perhaps because I don't understand p and s orbitals, etc.

I had a Chem class back in the dark ages (95ish), but that's a long time gone, frankly.

ETA: In other words, I can't understand the sentences because I don't know all the words, if that helps.

It makes perfect sense, and I was knocking a post together when something came up.

Anyway, I have to get home at some point today, so I'm off. I see that Henry and Steve have kicked proceedings off, so I'll expand tomorrow or Friday if and when I get a minute. Sound fair?

Louis

ETA: The Wikipedia articles on atomic orbitals and Electron configuration are a good place to start.

--------------
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Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,14:01   

Midwife, it seems the only route to go, if one wants to understand the sentences.

Thanks for the enumeration, Henry. But what makes an s orbital different from a p orbital? Why is it different?

Is this what you were touching on, Steve? Shape? If so, why is the shape of one orbital different from the shape of another in the same orbital (or even in different orbitals, for that matter)? Why does the second shell have one s and three p orbitals? Why not two and two or all of one or the other, for instance?

And what makes a d or f orbital different from s or p orbitals?

Does the p stand for pi and the s for sigma, as in Louis' previous explanation, or is that a whole 'nuther thing?

I think I'd have to get all that before I could even begin to understand resonance and continue with his explanation.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,14:03   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 24 2008,15:00)
Anyway, I have to get home at some point today, so I'm off. I see that Henry and Steve have kicked proceedings off, so I'll expand tomorrow or Friday if and when I get a minute. Sound fair?

Louis

ETA: The Wikipedia articles on atomic orbitals and Electron configuration are a good place to start.

Awesome. As I said, no rush, this is to satisfy my own personal curiosity.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Henry J



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,14:12   

The details would get into quantum mechanics that's over my head. But roughly, each type of orbital has a characteristic shape that and a minimum size. The 1st shell is simply too small to hold a p, d, or f, and the 2nd is too small for d or f, and the 3rd is too small for f.

  
Louis



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,14:21   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 24 2008,20:01)
Midwife, it seems the only route to go, if one wants to understand the sentences.

Thanks for the enumeration, Henry. But what makes an s orbital different from a p orbital? Why is it different?

Is this what you were touching on, Steve? Shape? If so, why is the shape of one orbital different from the shape of another in the same orbital (or even in different orbitals, for that matter)? Why does the second shell have one s and three p orbitals? Why not two and two or all of one or the other, for instance?

And what makes a d or f orbital different from s or p orbitals?

Does the p stand for pi and the s for sigma, as in Louis' previous explanation, or is that a whole 'nuther thing?

I think I'd have to get all that before I could even begin to understand resonance and continue with his explanation.

Ahhhh this is where the good stuff comes in. S does not stand for sigma nor p for pi (although the terms sigma and pi ARE derived from s and p). Sigma and pi are molecular orbitals and s and p (and d and f) are atomic orbitals. Atomic orbitals combine to form molecular ones. Molecular orbitals are what we refer to when we talk about (covalent) bonds.

The explanation I gave above hops about a bit and doesn't explain its terms well, I promise I'll do a proper post where all will be revealed.

Resonance is sort of like an "emergent property" don't worry about it too much yet (although it becomes very important in organic chemistry and hence biology). In the phosphate example above, imagine that all those oxygens are identical, it doesn't matter to the molecule which oxygen forms the double bond so it can form with any of them. What we draw as phosphate PO43- is a simplified picture of all those electronic movings around I mention. The reason I stuck the red labelled oxygen in there is so you could see that they were different, i.e. see the double bond moving.

This is a fascinating subject, the quantum mechanical picture of the atom IS complex but it is very useful when you understand it. It has those real world consequences that I hear so much about!

Louis

--------------
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Henry J



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,14:23   

Quote
It has those real world consequences that I hear so much about!


What, argument from consequences? ;)

  
Henry J



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Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,14:25   

Quote
Sigma and pi are molecular orbitals and s and p (and d and f) are atomic orbitals.


Ah. I was wondering what the sigma and pi represented. Until now they were Greek to me. (ha ha.)

Henry

  
Louis



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,14:27   

Quote (Henry J @ Sep. 24 2008,20:25)

What, argument from consequences? ;)

Little known fact:

The quantum mechanical model of the atom is strongly correlated with teen pregnancy and reduction in church attendance.

It's true I tells ya.

Louis

Edited to get the right quote in. I'm off home, I've been here 12 hours already!

--------------
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Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,15:24   

ah, thank you sir, for the clarification.

The waters are suddenly a bit less murky.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,15:51   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 24 2008,15:01)
Midwife, it seems the only route to go, if one wants to understand the sentences.

Thanks for the enumeration, Henry. But what makes an s orbital different from a p orbital? Why is it different?

Is this what you were touching on, Steve? Shape? If so, why is the shape of one orbital different from the shape of another in the same orbital (or even in different orbitals, for that matter)? Why does the second shell have one s and three p orbitals? Why not two and two or all of one or the other, for instance?

And what makes a d or f orbital different from s or p orbitals?

Does the p stand for pi and the s for sigma, as in Louis' previous explanation, or is that a whole 'nuther thing?

I think I'd have to get all that before I could even begin to understand resonance and continue with his explanation.

Somebody's exclusion rules say only one electron can be in a given quantum state. Since s is spherically symmetrical, you can only put two electrons in that state--one with spin up, one with spin down. the next electrons, in p, have an x y or z orientation, so you can fix 6 more there px spin up, px spin down, py spin up, py spin down, pz spin up, pz spin down, a sigma bond is like two dumbbells--two p bonds--with one side of the weights touching. a pi bond is like two dumbbells with both the weight parts touching, so there's more overlap, lower energy, and therefore stronger. The hybrids are some weirder shapes that result from mathematically mixing several bonds and there's also some more stuff about symmetry and anti-symmetry and I haven't thought about this stuff for about 4 years and so I've probably done more harm here than good and it won't make any sense without diagrams and factier facts than I can recall. Also, electrons can effect the energy states of other electrons by repulsing them and shielding the positive charge from the nucleus. Like Louis said, I would go get the wikipedia articles until he returns.

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,15:56   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 21 2008,04:23)
Quote (keiths @ Sep. 21 2008,02:49)
Dig the dehydration sex.  But why does she get to have an orgasm while he doesn't?

Because I ran out of gas and the artistic editing ended prematurely.

XVIVO better look out. There's a new animator in town.

Whoa. Robert Marks is gonna be pissed.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,17:56   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 24 2008,15:56)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 21 2008,04:23)
Quote (keiths @ Sep. 21 2008,02:49)
Dig the dehydration sex.  But why does she get to have an orgasm while he doesn't?

Because I ran out of gas and the artistic editing ended prematurely.

XVIVO better look out. There's a new animator in town.

Whoa. Robert Marks is gonna be pissed.

Then what explains his behavior to this point?

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Tracy P. Hamilton



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,18:24   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 24 2008,11:50)
Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Sep. 24 2008,11:28)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 21 2008,00:21)
In order to digest cellulose, water and cellulase are needed. Animals don't make cellulase in their bodies, and so can't digest cellulose. Hearkening back to the termite lab, remember that termites subsist on a diet of wood. Wood is made of cellulose. How do they do that? They depend on little microorganisms to digest the cellulose for them.

Some animals do produce cellulase!  Termites are an example.

   
Quote

Scientific Correspondence

Nature 394, 330-331 (23 July 1998) | doi:10.1038/28527
A cellulase gene of termite origin

Hirofumi Watanabe1, Hiroaki Noda1, Gaku Tokuda2 and Nathan Lo3

The traditional view of cellulose digestion in animals is that they cannot produce their own cellulase, and so rely on gut microorganisms to hydrolyse cellulose. A classic example of this symbiosis is that between phylogenetically lower termites and the unicellular organisms (protists) that colonize their hindguts: cellulose fermented to acetate by the protists can be used as an energy source by the termite1. There is evidence for the production of endogenous cellulase components by termites and other wood-feeding insects2; however, an unambiguous origin for such enzymes1 has not been established, to our knowledge, until now. Here we describe the first insect cellulase-endoding gene to be identified, RsEG, which encodes an endo-beta-1,4-glucanase (EC 3.2.1.4) in the termite Reticulitermes speratus

See, Doc specifically talked about the microcritters producing the cellulase for the termites. I'll have to point him to that.

Thanks for your input here, by the way. I appreciate the assists.

The microcritters also produce cellulases!  I merely pointed out that the animals were once not thought to do it.

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,18:25   

Quote (Henry J @ Sep. 24 2008,14:25)
Quote
Sigma and pi are molecular orbitals and s and p (and d and f) are atomic orbitals.


Ah. I was wondering what the sigma and pi represented. Until now they were Greek to me. (ha ha.)

Henry

You don't want to know about the capital letters S, P, D, F etc and Sigma, Pi, etc.

Trust me.  ???

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,18:31   

Quote (Henry J @ Sep. 24 2008,11:04)
Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Sep. 24 2008,09:19)
 
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 20 2008,13:18)
4. Phospate Group



A Phosphate Group is a Phosphorus bonded with two negatively charged Oxygen atoms, one regular Oxygen atom, and double bonded with one Oxygen atom. It's molecular formula is PO<sub>4</sub><sup>2-</sup> or sometimes OPO<sub>3</sub><sup>2-</sup>, to separate the double bonded Oxygen.

Here is where the lecture ended. Although I asked in a later lecture about the odd bondings here that seem to break the rules that we earlier set forth, Doc basically said, "It's complicated, and you don't need to know that for this class, though you'll learn about it in a Chemistry class if you take one." Ok, fair enough.


Chemical education discourages the use of the double bond in phosphate, and in sulfate groups as well.  As you noticed, it violates the octet rule, and does so unnecessarily!  There are some molecules where we chemists violate the rule out of necessity, such as having five atoms bonded to P, which requires 5 bonds.

The double bonds in phosphate and sulfate are historical, hence the biologists still use it a lot because that is how they learned it.  :O

So is the proper way to do it to put a - sign on three of the O's and a + sign on the P?

YES.  Don't listen to the old fogey Louis.

What Louis says is correct, though.  

Chemists have this resonance idea, but the question is which is more important:  a structure that obeys the octet rule but has +1 on P and -1 on each O, or a structure that disobeys the octet rule and has charge 0 on P, and 0 on one O.  Is having a positive charge on P so bad, and having negative on O so bad?  Answer: no.  Louis finds it offensive, apparently.  :p

I wonder if Louis would draw BF3 with a double bond or not, and whether there is any pi bonding in it (his justification for drawing P=O in phosphate).

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,18:33   

Quote (Henry J @ Sep. 24 2008,14:12)
The details would get into quantum mechanics that's over my head. But roughly, each type of orbital has a characteristic shape that and a minimum size. The 1st shell is simply too small to hold a p, d, or f, and the 2nd is too small for d or f, and the 3rd is too small for f.

Actually, it is a math thing.  The jellium model of the nucleus has "orbitals", where 1p, 1d functions etc are possible.

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,18:34   

Quote (Henry J @ Sep. 24 2008,14:23)
Quote
It has those real world consequences that I hear so much about!


What, argument from consequences? ;)

It keeps me employed, for example.  :)

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Texas Teach



Posts: 2084
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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,18:38   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 24 2008,14:01)
Midwife, it seems the only route to go, if one wants to understand the sentences.

Thanks for the enumeration, Henry. But what makes an s orbital different from a p orbital? Why is it different?

Is this what you were touching on, Steve? Shape? If so, why is the shape of one orbital different from the shape of another in the same orbital (or even in different orbitals, for that matter)? Why does the second shell have one s and three p orbitals? Why not two and two or all of one or the other, for instance?

And what makes a d or f orbital different from s or p orbitals?

Does the p stand for pi and the s for sigma, as in Louis' previous explanation, or is that a whole 'nuther thing?

I think I'd have to get all that before I could even begin to understand resonance and continue with his explanation.

Lou, it's all based on energy.  Lower energy is more stable.  The shapes can be derived from looking at the energy values of electrons in each orbital and the fact that electrons have wave-like properties and are subject to things like interference.

(My brain hurts from trying to reach back to everything I used to know but haven't thought about in years since I don't get to teach it in HS.  Thanks, Louis, for the refresher.)

edited to have only one conjugation of a verb in any given sentence.

--------------
"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
midwifetoad



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,19:02   

Quote
Somebody's exclusion rules say only one electron can be in a given quantum state.


That's probably Pauli's exclusion principle which states, if I remember correctly, that Pauli and a successful experiment cannot exist at the same time and place.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,19:34   

Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Sep. 24 2008,09:19)
   
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 20 2008,13:18)
4. Phospate Group



A Phosphate Group is a Phosphorus bonded with two negatively charged Oxygen atoms, one regular Oxygen atom, and double bonded with one Oxygen atom. It's molecular formula is PO42- or sometimes OPO32-, to separate the double bonded Oxygen.

Here is where the lecture ended. Although I asked in a later lecture about the odd bondings here that seem to break the rules that we earlier set forth, Doc basically said, "It's complicated, and you don't need to know that for this class, though you'll learn about it in a Chemistry class if you take one." Ok, fair enough.


Chemical education discourages the use of the double bond in phosphate, and in sulfate groups as well.  As you noticed, it violates the octet rule, and does so unnecessarily!  There are some molecules where we chemists violate the rule out of necessity, such as having five atoms bonded to P, which requires 5 bonds.

The double bonds in phosphate and sulfate are historical, hence the biologists still use it a lot because that is how they learned it.  :O

Well my issue here is actually not just that there is an extra bond there with the one Oxygen.

On top of that Phosphorus in particular only has three unpaired valence electrons to begin with, so should only be able to form 3 bonds (according to the rules), not even four, let alone five.



--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,19:38   

Quote (stevestory @ Sep. 24 2008,16:51)
 
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 24 2008,15:01)
Midwife, it seems the only route to go, if one wants to understand the sentences.

Thanks for the enumeration, Henry. But what makes an s orbital different from a p orbital? Why is it different?

Is this what you were touching on, Steve? Shape? If so, why is the shape of one orbital different from the shape of another in the same orbital (or even in different orbitals, for that matter)? Why does the second shell have one s and three p orbitals? Why not two and two or all of one or the other, for instance?

And what makes a d or f orbital different from s or p orbitals?

Does the p stand for pi and the s for sigma, as in Louis' previous explanation, or is that a whole 'nuther thing?

I think I'd have to get all that before I could even begin to understand resonance and continue with his explanation.

Somebody's exclusion rules say only one electron can be in a given quantum state. Since s is spherically symmetrical, you can only put two electrons in that state--one with spin up, one with spin down. the next electrons, in p, have an x y or z orientation, so you can fix 6 more there p<sub>x</sub> spin up, p<sub>x</sub> spin down, p<sub>y</sub> spin up, p<sub>y</sub> spin down, p<sub>z</sub> spin up, p<sub>z</sub> spin down, a sigma bond is like two dumbbells--two p bonds--with one side of the weights touching. a pi bond is like two dumbbells with both the weight parts touching, so there's more overlap, lower energy, and therefore stronger. The hybrids are some weirder shapes that result from mathematically mixing several bonds and there's also some more stuff about symmetry and anti-symmetry and I haven't thought about this stuff for about 4 years and so I've probably done more harm here than good and it won't make any sense without diagrams and factier facts than I can recall. Also, electrons can effect the energy states of other electrons by repulsing them and shielding the positive charge from the nucleus. Like Louis said, I would go get the wikipedia articles until he returns.

Ok, by "spin", are we talking about a physical spin, a rotation of the electron about a given spatial axis? Or is "spin" something more esoteric?

If the former, is that spacial axis relative to the nucleus, or is it more absolute, or neither?

Edited by Lou FCD on Sep. 24 2008,20:51

--------------
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Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,19:39   

Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Sep. 24 2008,19:24)
The microcritters also produce cellulases!  I merely pointed out that the animals were once not thought to do it.

Gotcha, thanks for the clarification.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,19:39   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Sep. 24 2008,18:56)
Then what explains his behavior to this point?

lol. I have some thoughts about that, none of which are terribly kind.

--------------
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Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,19:49   

Quote (Texas Teach @ Sep. 24 2008,19:38)
 
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 24 2008,14:01)
Midwife, it seems the only route to go, if one wants to understand the sentences.

Thanks for the enumeration, Henry. But what makes an s orbital different from a p orbital? Why is it different?

Is this what you were touching on, Steve? Shape? If so, why is the shape of one orbital different from the shape of another in the same orbital (or even in different orbitals, for that matter)? Why does the second shell have one s and three p orbitals? Why not two and two or all of one or the other, for instance?

And what makes a d or f orbital different from s or p orbitals?

Does the p stand for pi and the s for sigma, as in Louis' previous explanation, or is that a whole 'nuther thing?

I think I'd have to get all that before I could even begin to understand resonance and continue with his explanation.

Lou, it's all based on energy.  

(forgive the multiple comments, I'm trying to keep each conversation here separate in my head.)
Quote (Texas Teach @ Sep. 24 2008,19:38)
Lower energy is more stable.  


OK, got that.

Quote (Texas Teach @ Sep. 24 2008,19:38)
The shapes can be derived from looking at the energy values of electrons in each orbital


In what way? How does the energy value affect the shape? When you say energy value, are you referring to the potential energy derived from distance from the nucleus, or something else?

Quote (Texas Teach @ Sep. 24 2008,19:38)
and the fact that electrons have wave-like properties and are subject to things like interference.


Which properties are relevant here? How does it work?

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Henry J



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,19:56   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 24 2008,18:34)

Just wondering, but is the dash on the right side of the rightmost O atom supposed to be a minus sign? Cause it looks like a bond in search of another atom.

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,20:01   

Quote (Henry J @ Sep. 24 2008,20:56)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 24 2008,18:34)

Just wondering, but is the dash on the right side of the rightmost O atom supposed to be a minus sign? Cause it looks like a bond in search of another atom.

Actually, it is a bond in search of another atom, as we were pulling it out of context to isolate it and discuss it as a functional group as part of a larger molecule.

The dash remains to remind me that there's more to the molecule than this part.

--------------
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Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Tracy P. Hamilton



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,20:33   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 24 2008,19:34)
 
Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Sep. 24 2008,09:19)
       

Chemical education discourages the use of the double bond in phosphate, and in sulfate groups as well.  As you noticed, it violates the octet rule, and does so unnecessarily!  There are some molecules where we chemists violate the rule out of necessity, such as having five atoms bonded to P, which requires 5 bonds.

The double bonds in phosphate and sulfate are historical, hence the biologists still use it a lot because that is how they learned it.  :O


Well my issue here is actually not just that there is an extra bond there with the one Oxygen.

On top of that Phosphorus in particular only has three unpaired valence electrons to begin with, so should only be able to form 3 bonds (according to the rules), not even four, let alone five.


There is that also.  Usually, a bond is formed when one electron comes from one atom, and the second from the other.  Therefore carbon has four bonds and no lone pairs usually.  Phosphorus usually has 3 bonds and one lone pair.  However, if electronegative atoms are also involved (especially fluorine, all of the electrons can be used for a bond.  PF5 can be made, PH5 is rather dubious (oh how some chemists would love to make something like that).  All seven valence electrons of iodine can be used to make IF7.

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

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Tracy P. Hamilton



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,20:39   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 24 2008,19:38)
Ok, by "spin", are we talking about a physical spin, a rotation of the electron about a given spatial axis? Or is "spin" something more esoteric?

If the former, is that spacial axis relative to the nucleus, or is it more absolute, or neither?

Yes.  :p

Seriously the electron has no size, so no axis to spin around.  The value of its spin angular momentum cannot be changed, to do so would mean it is not an electron.

If the electrons spin was an integer by the way, there is no Pauli exclusion principle, all electrons could be in the lowest orbital (like 1s^6 for carbon) and there would be no chemistry.

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,20:49   

Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Sep. 24 2008,21:39)
The value of its spin angular momentum cannot be changed, to do so would mean it is not an electron.

But it can be flipped, right, between pos and neg 1/2?

   
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,20:51   

Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Sep. 24 2008,21:33)
There is that also.  Usually, a bond is formed when one electron comes from one atom, and the second from the other.  Therefore carbon has four bonds and no lone pairs usually.  Phosphorus usually has 3 bonds and one lone pair.  However, if electronegative atoms are also involved (especially fluorine, all of the electrons can be used for a bond.  PF5 can be made, PH5 is rather dubious (oh how some chemists would love to make something like that).  All seven valence electrons of iodine can be used to make IF7.

Holy crap! People, Listen! Rules exist for a reason!

WHAT IS THE POINT OF MAKING ALL THESE RULES IF JERKS LIKE IODINE AND FLORINE ARE JUST GOING TO GO AROUND BREAKING THEM WILLY NILLY??????

Seriously, if we're just going to go let Iodine use all seven of its valence electrons to form bonds, what's next? Why stop there? Why not just let Iodine use all frickin' 53? Hell, why not just skip the electrons altogether? Let's just have a great big element orgy, and let the protons and the neutrons have some fun! Hey look! Its H97C3Uno69HeK22!

Geez, the moral fabric of society is at stake here folks!!! Next thing y'know, you'll be combining Xe and R, and gay people will be getting married!

WAKE UP AMERICA!

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,20:56   

Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Sep. 24 2008,21:39)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 24 2008,19:38)
Ok, by "spin", are we talking about a physical spin, a rotation of the electron about a given spatial axis? Or is "spin" something more esoteric?

If the former, is that spacial axis relative to the nucleus, or is it more absolute, or neither?

Yes.  :p

Seriously the electron has no size, so no axis to spin around.  The value of its spin angular momentum cannot be changed, to do so would mean it is not an electron.

If the electrons spin was an integer by the way, there is no Pauli exclusion principle, all electrons could be in the lowest orbital (like 1s^6 for carbon) and there would be no chemistry.

Wait. "No size" like in 0? It has mass, so wouldn't it then be a little black hole, infinite density, etc?

The rest of that is crazy talk, over my head still.

First you say "yes" then you say "no" and then you're talking about angular momentum in reference to an object you just asserted has no size, so I'm really confused now.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Texas Teach



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,21:21   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 24 2008,19:49)

   
Quote (Texas Teach @ Sep. 24 2008,19:38)
The shapes can be derived from looking at the energy values of electrons in each orbital


In what way? How does the energy value affect the shape? When you say energy value, are you referring to the potential energy derived from distance from the nucleus, or something else?


Potential energy, yes.  I had a mathematician explain this to me once.  It was a beautiful, clear explanation. I experienced an epiphany that day....I can't for the life of me recall the details.  :)  Anyway, the shape is partly determined by potential energy due to the electrostatic charge between the electron and the nucleus, the charges of the electrons wrt each other, and the fact that the electrons' energies are only stable for certain values.

 
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 24 2008,19:49)
    
Quote (Texas Teach @ Sep. 24 2008,19:38)
and the fact that electrons have wave-like properties and are subject to things like interference.


Which properties are relevant here? How does it work?


Ok, now you caught me forgetting physical chemistry I learned before I fled grad school for the friendlier environs of teaching in public school.  (Really!;)  I fear I'd only confuse you and embarrass me.  Perhaps Louis, Tracy, or Henry (or someone else) can help?

--------------
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Henry J



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 24 2008,22:43   

Quote
Louis, 9/24/08 10:22 AM

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Well, yes-ish. Well, no. Maybe. Ylides!


Make up my mind!!!111!!

Quote
Lou,
Ok, by "spin", are we talking about a physical spin, a rotation of the electron about a given spatial axis? Or is "spin" something more esoteric?


Well, yes. And no. Maybe. (to paraphrase somebody else's earlier "explanation". :p )

It's a quantum mechanics thing. The "spin" is either up or down. Though I think the spin value might depend on what axis one is talking about at the moment. (This may be exceeding my grasp of the subject, in case you can't tell.)

But getting back to the electron orbitals: as atomic number increases, the next element puts the next electron in the lowest energy orbital that is available.

As a general rule the order of increasing energy is
1s
2s
2p 3s
3p 4s
3d 4p 5s
4d 5p 6s
4f 5d 6p 7s
5f 6d 7p 8s

Yeah, I could have made each line correspond to a period, but that format is more symmetric.
The "s" elements are the 2 leftmost columns of the periodic table*.
The "p" elements are the 6 rightmost columns, each one ending in a noble gas.
The "d" elements are the 10 transition metal columns.
The "f" elements are those 14 element sequences that are usually shown below the rest of the table.
The highest detected element, number 118, is the last one in the 7p group.

*H and He being special cases. The "s" elements outside of period 1 are the alkali metals, very reactive.

Henry

  
Louis



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,04:32   

Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Sep. 25 2008,00:31)
Quote (Henry J @ Sep. 24 2008,11:04)
Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Sep. 24 2008,09:19)
 
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 20 2008,13:18)
4. Phospate Group



A Phosphate Group is a Phosphorus bonded with two negatively charged Oxygen atoms, one regular Oxygen atom, and double bonded with one Oxygen atom. It's molecular formula is PO<sub>4</sub><sup>2-</sup> or sometimes OPO<sub>3</sub><sup>2-</sup>, to separate the double bonded Oxygen.

Here is where the lecture ended. Although I asked in a later lecture about the odd bondings here that seem to break the rules that we earlier set forth, Doc basically said, "It's complicated, and you don't need to know that for this class, though you'll learn about it in a Chemistry class if you take one." Ok, fair enough.


Chemical education discourages the use of the double bond in phosphate, and in sulfate groups as well.  As you noticed, it violates the octet rule, and does so unnecessarily!  There are some molecules where we chemists violate the rule out of necessity, such as having five atoms bonded to P, which requires 5 bonds.

The double bonds in phosphate and sulfate are historical, hence the biologists still use it a lot because that is how they learned it.  :O

So is the proper way to do it to put a - sign on three of the O's and a + sign on the P?

YES.  Don't listen to the old fogey Louis.

What Louis says is correct, though.  

Chemists have this resonance idea, but the question is which is more important:  a structure that obeys the octet rule but has +1 on P and -1 on each O, or a structure that disobeys the octet rule and has charge 0 on P, and 0 on one O.  Is having a positive charge on P so bad, and having negative on O so bad?  Answer: no.  Louis finds it offensive, apparently.  :p

I wonder if Louis would draw BF3 with a double bond or not, and whether there is any pi bonding in it (his justification for drawing P=O in phosphate).

BF3?

LOL Sure you could draw a double bond, or a B+ (as you could for phospohrous/sulfur, I'll get to the key difference in a moment), although in this case it's a pi orbital formed from a combination of a lone pair in the F 2p orbital and the empty 2p orbital of the sp2 hybridised boron. The same sort of resonance picture applies here, as that double bond is delocalised over the three bonds. But again, there is definite pi character, the hallmark of a "double" bond (the quotes indicate that thee static formalisms are inadequate to explain a resonance picture)

Spectroscopically the B-F bond in uncomplexed BF3 is slightly shorter than calculated. Also, BF3 is trigonal planar (derived from it's sp2 hybridisation), contrast this with the comparable nitrogen halide or even ammonia (trigonal pyramidal molecules which get their shape from the tetrahedral arrangement of filled orbitals (bonding and non-bonding) around the central N atom). Also contrast it with the Lewis acidity of the boron halides, BBr3 is a much stronger Lewis acid than BF3, as demonstrated by its comparative ease of hydrolysis, precisely because that pi bonding is less strong due to the comparatively poor overlap between the smaller boron 2p orbital and the larger higher energy 4p orbital. The trend in Lewis acidity of the boron halides goes AGAINST that which we would expect from the halide electronegativity trend precisely because of this. BF3 has "less" of a "naked" B+ than does BBr3 by that reckoning, again though it is an oversimplification to treat these molecules as either double bond or + and -, reality, as ever, is more subtle. However, I'd be "happier" to have a double bond in BF3 than BBr3, and "happier" to have a B+ in BBr3 than BF3.

As I mentioned above (and I don't find +s on P/S/B/anything offensive btw, I love my +s, I'll even go as far as radical anions and carbenes (shock horror)! Hence why I mentioned ylides to Henry) these diagrammatic formalisms are just that: formalisms, as is the octet rule. They are simplified ways of looking at a much more complex picture. Switching between them in appropriate circumstances is a useful tool in developing mechanistic insight.

In all seriousness, if I've given any other impression (i.e. that one should stick a double bond in bloody everywhere) then I apologise, I was being amusing! Every bond can be thought of as a + and - under the right circumstances, just as it can be thought of as a pair of radicals for example. Most of the time (unless for example detailed mechanistic work has been done with the usual array of kinetics, radical/triplet quenches etc) these diagrammatic formalisms are interchangeable.

The major difference between P/S and B is a) their size, and b) the availability of those d orbitals. That makes a huge difference. In the case of phosphorous and sulfur there are plenty of examples of restricted rotation/bond shortening around the supposed "double" bond. For example the whole basis of the difference in mechanism between the Wittig reaction and the Horner-Wadsworth-Emmons reaction is based on tuning ylide electronic states so that rotation around the P-C bond axis is restricted/unrestricted, and hence why one gets different (ratios of) geometric isomers out the other end of the reaction. Those electronic states can be so tuned that there is even debate about whether the HWE involves the same type of phosphorous species as the Wittig.

The key is to look at the data, formalisms are all well and good, but the data is king! The spectroscopic data for phosphate (for example) show something more than a P-O sigma bond. Depending on what you are doing (IR, UV etc) you see that bond a slightly different way. Hence why, for mechanistic and diagrammatic purposes, one uses these interchangeable formalisms to simplify the resonance (i.e. quantum mechanical) picture.

Now a really good question is how one would draw diborane (B2H6, because if BF3 and phosphate anions blow people's minds about bonding, then diborane (or even higher boranes) is like the LSD version!

Cheers!

Louis

--------------
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Louis



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,05:07   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 25 2008,02:51)
Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Sep. 24 2008,21:33)
There is that also.  Usually, a bond is formed when one electron comes from one atom, and the second from the other.  Therefore carbon has four bonds and no lone pairs usually.  Phosphorus usually has 3 bonds and one lone pair.  However, if electronegative atoms are also involved (especially fluorine, all of the electrons can be used for a bond.  PF5 can be made, PH5 is rather dubious (oh how some chemists would love to make something like that).  All seven valence electrons of iodine can be used to make IF7.

Holy crap! People, Listen! Rules exist for a reason!

WHAT IS THE POINT OF MAKING ALL THESE RULES IF JERKS LIKE IODINE AND FLORINE ARE JUST GOING TO GO AROUND BREAKING THEM WILLY NILLY??????

Seriously, if we're just going to go let Iodine use all seven of its valence electrons to form bonds, what's next? Why stop there? Why not just let Iodine use all frickin' 53? Hell, why not just skip the electrons altogether? Let's just have a great big element orgy, and let the protons and the neutrons have some fun! Hey look! Its H97C3Uno69HeK22!

Geez, the moral fabric of society is at stake here folks!!! Next thing y'know, you'll be combining Xe and R, and gay people will be getting married!

WAKE UP AMERICA!

XeF6 (and many other noble gas compounds) exists, way back in my undergrad days I did a project with one of the leading lights in fluorine and noble gas chem.

Now XeO3 is something you (possibly don't) want to make. It's an explosive so sensitive that a small change in atmospheric pressure will set it off. Fluctuations in the inert (argon/nitrogen) gas supply to the reaction will set it off. Walking past it will set it off. It's a cracker!

How do we know this? Well lots of reasons, but let's just say this: a PhD student working in that lab (whose name we shall keep secret, but was referred to as "Tim Nice But Dim" for the obvious reasons) was making some xenon fluorides in a zinc reaction vessel called a "bomb" (hilarious) with 2 inch thick walls and an internal volume of about one cubic centimetre. The bomb by the way was welded shut, this was the good old days when health and safety were just words we'd heard about. Tim Nice But Dim had failed to adequately evacuate his reaction vessel and flush it with fluorine and so there was some air left in the bomb when he added his xenon and stuck it in a furnace to let it react overnight. We all returned to the lab the next morning to find that the corner of it (including some rather expensive kit) was, well, erm, missing.

Based on the amounts of reagants/reactants used we estimated that he'd made about 5 or 10 milligrams of XeO3.*

Nice!

This was the guy who also got an almost perfect Union Jack in HF burns (only mild ones thank fuck) on his face when he overpressurised his plastic reaction vessel with fluorine and it popped just as he poked his head into the fumehood to look at why it wasn't behaving as expected. The burns were made by the tracks of the fragments of the plastic reaction vessel as they made a bid for freedom across the only thing in their way, his head. Luckily the explosion wasn't so big that they had enough force to go through the only thing in their way.

By the way, your reaction to the quantum mechanical picture of the atom so soon after learning the octet rule etc is perfectly normal. Breathe deeply, smoke some weed, drink heavily. We find it helps.

Louis

* MR XeO3 = 179.3.

5 mg of XeO3 = 0.28 mmol. XeO3 decays to give 5 moles of gas (2 Xe and 3 O2 per 2 moles of XeO3 therefore 0.7 mmol of gas.

The volume of an ideal gas at STP (273 K and 1 atm) is 22.4 L/mol therefore 15.7 mL of gas per 5 mg of XeO3 at 273K and 1 atm of pressure.

The bomb was pressurised to over 20 atm and was in a furnace (I forget the temperature) so that 15.7 mL of gas at STP in a 1 mL reaction vessel is bad enough, but this thing was hot and at high pressure. It went off like a grenade. We never found all of the bomb reactor....

P.S. The gays ARE getting married, and we've been discovering more noble gas compounds every year. COINCIDENCE? I don't think so. We allowed the corruption noble gases and now we're allowing the corruption of gentlemen's asses. WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN! STOP THE MADNESS! Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria!**

**Thank you Dr Venkman.

--------------
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Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,06:38   

*headdesk*

imgoingtospanishclasswhereshitmakessense

--------------
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Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Albatrossity2



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,07:04   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 25 2008,06:38)
*headdesk*

imgoingtospanishclasswhereshitmakessense

That'll teach ya. Never ask a chemist to explain chemistry. Life's too short for that.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Louis



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,07:07   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 25 2008,12:38)
*headdesk*

imgoingtospanishclasswhereshitmakessense

Que?

Luis

--------------
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Louis



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,07:08   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Sep. 25 2008,13:04)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 25 2008,06:38)
*headdesk*

imgoingtospanishclasswhereshitmakessense

That'll teach ya. Never ask a chemist to explain chemistry. Life's too short for that.

But I haven't started the explanation....yet!

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,10:31   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 25 2008,08:07)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 25 2008,12:38)
*headdesk*

imgoingtospanishclasswhereshitmakessense

Que?

Luis

Aprendo los verbos regulars. -ar, -er, y -ir, ¿verdad?

Edited by Lou FCD on Sep. 25 2008,11:32

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Tracy P. Hamilton



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,11:08   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 24 2008,20:56)
Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Sep. 24 2008,21:39)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 24 2008,19:38)
Ok, by "spin", are we talking about a physical spin, a rotation of the electron about a given spatial axis? Or is "spin" something more esoteric?

If the former, is that spacial axis relative to the nucleus, or is it more absolute, or neither?

Yes.  :p

Seriously the electron has no size, so no axis to spin around.  The value of its spin angular momentum cannot be changed, to do so would mean it is not an electron.

If the electrons spin was an integer by the way, there is no Pauli exclusion principle, all electrons could be in the lowest orbital (like 1s^6 for carbon) and there would be no chemistry.

Wait. "No size" like in 0? It has mass, so wouldn't it then be a little black hole, infinite density, etc?

The rest of that is crazy talk, over my head still.

First you say "yes" then you say "no" and then you're talking about angular momentum in reference to an object you just asserted has no size, so I'm really confused now.

Physicists don't let trivialities such as infinity bother them, the just renormalize things.  :O

If a particle is not made up of anything (a fundamental particle like the electron for example) , but has a finite size, we could make out a top half.  What is that top half made out of?  Wikipedia "point particle".

An example of the infinity business, in quantum field theory the electron interacts with itself.  Now via coulombs law, the energy is infinite since the electron distance from itself is zero.

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Louis



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(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,11:22   

Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Sep. 25 2008,17:08)
[SNIP]

Physicists don't let trivialities such as infinity bother them, the just renormalize things.  :O

[SNIP]

HAHAHAHA! Sorry It's a physics joke.....or at least it's a physics joke in my opinion.

Hasn't worked for gravity though has it? Ohhhh those pesky physicists and their M-theory. Grrrrrr.

{shakes fist}

Just when I think I've got a hold on the maths behind the universe, they go and make the maths harder!

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,11:23   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 25 2008,16:31)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 25 2008,08:07)
 
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 25 2008,12:38)
*headdesk*

imgoingtospanishclasswhereshitmakessense

Que?

Luis

Aprendo los verbos regulars. -ar, -er, y -ir, ¿verdad?

Que conio pasa capullo? Tengo monos en la cara?

Louis

P.S. My written Spanish = not so good. Forgive errors, corrections welcome.

--------------
Bye.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,11:39   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 25 2008,08:31)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 25 2008,08:07)
 
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 25 2008,12:38)
*headdesk*

imgoingtospanishclasswhereshitmakessense

Que?

Luis

Aprendo los verbos regulars. -ar, -er, y -ir, ¿verdad?

Dude, get yourself a copy of this as soon as possible.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,11:45   

[quote=Louis,Sep. 25 2008,12:23]
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 25 2008,16:31)
 
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 25 2008,08:07)

Aprendo los verbos regulars. -ar, -er, y -ir, ¿verdad?

Que conio pasa capullo? Tengo monos en la cara?

Louis

P.S. My written Spanish = not so good. Forgive errors, corrections welcome.

Quote (google translate @ a moment ago)
What happens Coni cocoon? I have monkeys in the face?


lol

Tienes una cara guapo, Lucho.

(«monos en la cara» es muy gracioso)

Edited by Lou FCD on Sep. 25 2008,12:59

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,11:51   

My hovercraft is full of eels!

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,11:52   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 25 2008,12:39)
 
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 25 2008,08:31)
   
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 25 2008,08:07)
     
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 25 2008,12:38)
*headdesk*

imgoingtospanishclasswhereshitmakessense

Que?

Luis

Aprendo los verbos regulars. -ar, -er, y -ir, ¿verdad?

Dude, get yourself a copy of this as soon as possible.

Gracias, Arden.

Tengo dos diccionarios, también. Uno diccionario no es muy bueno, pero uno diccionario es muy muy bueno.

Tiene los verbos y las conjugacións por (¿para?) los verbos irregulars también.

Edited by Lou FCD on Sep. 25 2008,12:58

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,11:54   

ser and estar are what's going to kill me.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,12:09   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 25 2008,09:52)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 25 2008,12:39)
   
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 25 2008,08:31)
   
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 25 2008,08:07)
     
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 25 2008,12:38)
*headdesk*

imgoingtospanishclasswhereshitmakessense

Que?

Luis

Aprendo los verbos regulars. -ar, -er, y -ir, ¿verdad?

Dude, get yourself a copy of this as soon as possible.

Gracias, Arden.

Tengo dos diccionarios, también. Uno diccionario no es muy bueno, pero uno diccionario es muy muy bueno.

Tiene los verbos y las conjugacións por (¿para?) los verbos irregulars también.

You'll get it. I wish I could help more, but I mostly did Russian and German. I'm currently studying Hindi on the side. Stupidly, I never got around to doing Spanish. I suppose I still should.

The 501 Verbs series is great. It was a tremendous help when I was doing Russian in the early 1980's. You don't really need the CDrom -- just order a used copy of the plain old book, that should be plenty.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,12:12   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 25 2008,17:45)
[quote=Louis,Sep. 25 2008,12:23]
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 25 2008,16:31)
 
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 25 2008,08:07)

Aprendo los verbos regulars. -ar, -er, y -ir, ¿verdad?

Que conio pasa capullo? Tengo monos en la cara?

Louis

P.S. My written Spanish = not so good. Forgive errors, corrections welcome.

 
Quote (google translate @ a moment ago)
What happens Coni cocoon? I have monkeys in the face?


lol

Tienes una cara guapo, Lucho.

(«monos en la cara» es muy gracioso)

If I've got it right it's Valencian saying used to someone staring at you. It allegedly means (roughly) "What the fuck's going on, stupid? Have I got monkeys on my face?"

But, as a Mexican friend of mine used to say:

"Las tortillas de tu madre saben como la lengua de un pero muerto."

Do you ever get the impression that I have occasionally misused the international nature of the scientific community to learn obscure and probably rude phrases?

As a Ghanaian mate of mine used to say (in Fante):

Ewiesu ye fe.

(It's a wonderful life.)

Louis

P.S. He also used to say: Wo mamu tchwe (your mother's sex parts). Both phrases have been exceptionally useful.

--------------
Bye.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,12:17   

I'll do that.

Ich spreche die Deutch ein bisschen auch und je parle le français en peut aussi.

I'd like to have a go at Mandarin sometime, and Russian would probably be good to know, as well as brushing up on the French and learning some non-Jesusy German vocabulary.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,12:20   

[quote=Louis,Sep. 25 2008,13:12]
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 25 2008,17:45)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 25 2008,12:23)
 
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 25 2008,16:31)
   
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 25 2008,08:07)

Aprendo los verbos regulars. -ar, -er, y -ir, ¿verdad?

Que conio pasa capullo? Tengo monos en la cara?

Louis

P.S. My written Spanish = not so good. Forgive errors, corrections welcome.

   
Quote (google translate @ a moment ago)
What happens Coni cocoon? I have monkeys in the face?


lol

Tienes una cara guapo, Lucho.

(«monos en la cara» es muy gracioso)

If I've got it right it's Valencian saying used to someone staring at you. It allegedly means (roughly) "What the fuck's going on, stupid? Have I got monkeys on my face?"

But, as a Mexican friend of mine used to say:

"Las tortillas de tu madre saben como la lengua de un pero muerto."

Do you ever get the impression that I have occasionally misused the international nature of the scientific community to learn obscure and probably rude phrases?

As a Ghanaian mate of mine used to say (in Fante):

Ewiesu ye fe.

(It's a wonderful life.)

Louis

P.S. He also used to say: Wo mamu tchwe (your mother's sex parts). Both phrases have been exceptionally useful.

Part of my youth was spent in a neighborhood with a high percentage of folks of Puerto Rican ancestry, and I learned all the good words then.

ETA: I think you want "perro".  (Pero = but, perro = dog)

Edited by Lou FCD on Sep. 25 2008,13:24

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,12:20   

[quote=Louis,Sep. 25 2008,10:12]  
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 25 2008,17:45)
   
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 25 2008,12:23)
     
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 25 2008,16:31)
       
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 25 2008,08:07)

Aprendo los verbos regulars. -ar, -er, y -ir, ¿verdad?

Que conio pasa capullo? Tengo monos en la cara?

Louis

P.S. My written Spanish = not so good. Forgive errors, corrections welcome.

     
Quote (google translate @ a moment ago)
What happens Coni cocoon? I have monkeys in the face?


lol

Tienes una cara guapo, Lucho.

(«monos en la cara» es muy gracioso)

If I've got it right it's Valencian saying used to someone staring at you. It allegedly means (roughly) "What the fuck's going on, stupid? Have I got monkeys on my face?"

But, as a Mexican friend of mine used to say:

"Las tortillas de tu madre saben como la lengua de un pero muerto."

Do you ever get the impression that I have occasionally misused the international nature of the scientific community to learn obscure and probably rude phrases?

As a Ghanaian mate of mine used to say (in Fante):

Ewiesu ye fe.

(It's a wonderful life.)

Louis

P.S. He also used to say: Wo mamu tchwe (your mother's sex parts). Both phrases have been exceptionally useful.

Louis, as a kindly old Russian gentleman I once knew used to say, yob tvoju mat'. Or, when he was feeling especially sentimental, he'd explain that poshol ty na khuy. Those words are just as meaningful now as they as they were back then. And so, I pass these words on to you, dear bhenchod Louis.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,12:22   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 25 2008,18:17)
I'll do that.

Ich spreche die Deutch ein bisschen auch und je parle le français en peut aussi.

I'd like to have a go at Mandarin sometime, and Russian would probably be good to know, as well as brushing up on the French and learning some non-Jesusy German vocabulary.

I'm in the same boat Lou.

I speak good French, pretty good German, and a reasonable amount of Spanish, Italian, Greek and Punjabi.

I can write good French (usually, although this sometimes needs a run up!) and reasonable German.

Oh yeah, I speak Ancient Greek and Latin like a native! I reckon in total it adds up to about 3 languages!

I'm working on English.

Louis

P.S. Mandarin is the number one top language I want to learn. It's just so DIFFERENT! The Indo-European languages seem, by and large similar to me in many ways (paging official linguist comments). (Ok so I'm excluding Basque, Hungarian/Finnish, various Gaelic languages etc)

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,12:24   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 25 2008,18:20)
[SNIP]

Louis, as a kindly old Russian gentleman I once knew used to say, yob tvoju mat'. Or, when he was feeling especially sentimental, he'd explain that poshol ty na khuy. Those words are just as meaningful now as they as they were back then. And so, I pass these words on to you, dear bhenchod Louis.

Oh you HAVE to translate those for me!

And are we really going to start swearing at each other in badly transliterated Punjabi again?

Haramsada. Tere ma di pudi.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,12:42   

Quiero aprender enseñar la Biología en inglés y en español.

Seems like that would be a valuable skill in many places.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,12:45   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 25 2008,10:24)
Oh you HAVE to translate those for me!

Louis, you lovable old chutmaari, I can't do all your work for you.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,12:47   

Quote

P.S. Mandarin is the number one top language I want to learn. It's just so DIFFERENT! The Indo-European languages seem, by and large similar to me in many ways (paging official linguist comments). (Ok so I'm excluding Basque, Hungarian/Finnish, various Gaelic languages etc)


Louis, are you trying to say that Basque, Hungarian, & Finnish ARE Indo-European, or that Gaelic is NOT?

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,12:51   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 25 2008,18:47)
Quote

P.S. Mandarin is the number one top language I want to learn. It's just so DIFFERENT! The Indo-European languages seem, by and large similar to me in many ways (paging official linguist comments). (Ok so I'm excluding Basque, Hungarian/Finnish, various Gaelic languages etc)


Louis, are you trying to say that Basque, Hungarian, & Finnish ARE Indo-European, or that Gaelic is NOT?

LOL No idea! None and all of those things. Linguistics = not my field (obviously).

I thought Basque, Hungarian, Finnish, various Gaelics all had slightly separate roots from the Germanic, Romance and Sanskrit derived languages.

Although I have it on good authority that Portuguese is a mixture of French and Spanish.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,12:56   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 25 2008,10:51)
 
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Sep. 25 2008,18:47)
 
Quote

P.S. Mandarin is the number one top language I want to learn. It's just so DIFFERENT! The Indo-European languages seem, by and large similar to me in many ways (paging official linguist comments). (Ok so I'm excluding Basque, Hungarian/Finnish, various Gaelic languages etc)


Louis, are you trying to say that Basque, Hungarian, & Finnish ARE Indo-European, or that Gaelic is NOT?

LOL No idea! None and all of those things. Linguistics = not my field (obviously).

I thought Basque, Hungarian, Finnish, various Gaelics all had slightly separate roots from the Germanic, Romance and Sanskrit derived languages.

[shakes head sadly.]

 
Quote
Although I have it on good authority that Portuguese is a mixture of French and Spanish.


Well, at least you got THAT right.



--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,13:01   

Stop teasing Arden. I want those Russian translations and a full breakdown of the evolution of modern languages NOW, mister. Or else I'll have proven that you language evolutionists have no better story than me and the Intelligent Linguist* advocates.

[/FTK]

Louis

* or bablinguisticylontowerproponentists.

--------------
Bye.

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,22:21   

Quote
ser and estar are what's going to kill me.


To be or not to be, that is the question...

Henry

  
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 25 2008,22:38   

Quote (Henry J @ Sep. 25 2008,20:21)
Quote
ser and estar are what's going to kill me.

To be or not to be, that is the question...

Henry

Or more accurately:
Quote
To be1 or to be2, that is the question...


--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2008,05:12   

lol, that's too funny.

I'm expecting a quiz in Biology this morning, based on the amount of time passed since our last one. I figure it'll be on the parts of the cell and their functions.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2008,09:22   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 26 2008,06:12)
lol, that's too funny.

I'm expecting a quiz in Biology this morning, based on the amount of time passed since our last one. I figure it'll be on the parts of the cell and their functions.

I was wrong, no quiz.

Cool lecture, though.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2008,11:38   



My notes and thoughts from Biology 111 Lab, for Monday, September 15, 2008. The entire series can be found here.

In this lab, we learned to use reagents to test for the presence of proteins, starch, and sugars, using distilled water as a negative control.

Since distilled water should be straight H2O and nothing else, each time we did a test, we could see what the reagent did in solution without the presence of whatever it was we were testing for.

We worked in groups, and our group consisted of four students.

  • A. In the first experiment, we tested for the presence of proteins with Biuret reagent, a highly corrosive blue/purply substance. Our Lab Manual and Doc each warned us about its potential hazards, safety precautions, and what to do if we got it on our skin.

    We marked four test tubes at the 1 cm level.

    • Test tube 1 we filled to the mark with distilled water. We then added about 5 drops of Biuret reagent. The water turned light blue. This was our negative control to which we could compare the other tubes when the Biuret reagent was added.

    • Test tube 2 we filled to the mark with Albumin solution. We then added about 5 drops of Biuret reagent. The solution turned a purple color, indicating the presence of proteins.

    • Test tube 3 we filled to the mark with Pepsin solution. We then added about 5 drops of Biuret reagent. The solution turned a pinkish/purple color, indicating the presence of peptides.

    • Test tube 4 we filled to the mark with Starch solution. We then added about 5 drops of Biuret reagent. The solution turned a light blue color, indicating the absence of proteins and peptides.


  • B. In the second experiment, we tested for the presence of starch with iodine.

    We marked five test tubes at the 1 cm level.

    • Test tube 1 we filled to the mark with distilled water. We then added about 5 drops of iodine solution. The water turned orange. This was our negative control to which we could compare the other tubes when the idodine solution was added.

    • Test tube 2 we filled to the mark with 1% starch solution. We then added about 5 drops of iodine. The solution turned a black color, indicating the presence of starch (duh). This was our positive control to which we could compare the other tubes when the iodine solution was added.

    • Test tube 3 we filled to the mark with onion juice that we extracted by mortar and pestle. We then added about 5 drops of iodine solution. The solution turned an orange color, indicating the absence of starch.

    • Test tube 4 we filled to the mark with potato juice that we extracted by mortar and pestle. We then added about 5 drops of iodine solution. The solution turned a black color, indicating the presence of starch.

    • Test tube 5 we filled to the mark with glucose solution. We then added about 5 drops of iodine solution. The solution turned an orange color, indicating the absence of starch.


  • C. In the third experiment, we tested for sugars (monosaccharides, specifically) with Benedict's reagent and heat.

    We marked five test tubes at the 1 cm level.

    • Test tube 1 we filled to the mark with distilled water. We then added about 5 drops of Benedict's reagent and heated in a boiling water bath for 10 minutes. The solution turned a very pale light blue.

    • Test tube 2 we filled to the mark with glucose solution. We then added about 5 drops of Benedict's reagent and heated in a boiling water bath for 10 minutes. The solution turned a pumpkin orange color, indicating a high concentration of monosaccharides.

    • Test tube 3 we filled to the mark with onion juice. We then added about 5 drops of Benedict's reagent and heated in a boiling water bath for 10 minutes. The solution turned a yellow/orange color, indicating a moderate concentration of monosaccharides.

    • Test tube 4 we filled to the mark with potato juice. We then added about 5 drops of Benedict's reagent and heated in a boiling water bath for 10 minutes. The solution turned a green color, indicating a low concentration of monosaccharides.

    • Test tube 5 we filled to the mark with starch suspension. We then added about 5 drops of Benedict's reagent and heated in a boiling water bath for 10 minutes. The solution turned a very pale light blue, indicating the absence of monosaccharides.


  • D. In the fourth experiment, we tested for starch, with 1% Amylase solution, Benedict's reagent, and heat. The point was to show that starch contains sugar. (Amylase ends in -ase, and as we remember from our earlier lecture, that means it's an enzyme that breaks down sugar through the process of hydrolysis. In this case, amylase breaks down starch to disassociative maltose. Presumably, the heat pushes the hydrolysis of maltose into glucose?)

    We marked two test tubes at the 2 cm, 4 cm, and 6 cm levels.

    • Test tube 1 we filled to the 2 cm mark with distilled water and to the 4 cm mark with 1% amylase. We then corked and shook the tube, and waited 30 minutes. At the end of 30 minutes, we noted the color of the solution and added 5 drops of Benedict's reagent and heated for 10 minutes. The solution did not change color.

    • Test tube 2 we filled to the 2 cm mark with starch suspension and to the 4 cm mark with 1% amylase. We then corked and shook the tube, and waited 30 minutes. At the end of 30 minutes, we noted the color of the solution and added 5 drops of Benedict's reagent and heated for 10 minutes. The solution turned a green color, indicating the presence of a low concentration of monosaccharides.


  • E. In the fifth experiment, we experimented with the emulsification of lipids using Sudan IV.

    We marked two test tubes, the first at the 3 cm and 4 cm levels, and the second at the 2 cm, 3 cm, and 4 cm levels.

    • Test tube 1 we filled to the 3 cm mark with distilled water and the 4 cm mark with vegetable oil. We then shook the tube and observed the behavior of the liquid, watching it separate and not become a solution.

    • Test tube 2 we filled to the 2 cm mark with water, to the 3 cm mark with vegetable oil, and to the 4 cm mark with Sudan IV. We then shook the tube and observed the behavior of the liquid, watching it take much longer to separate. The Sudan IV seemed to retard the separation process quite a bit.


We then discussed the results of our testing and the lab ended.

     
Quote
From whence came the art:

The first image is of our textbook, Biology, Eighth Edition, by Campbell &amp; Reese et al.

Other images by me and are licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution- NonCommercial- Share Alike 3.0 License.


Edited to change an onion into a potato.

Edited by Lou FCD on Sep. 26 2008,15:04

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2008,13:12   



My notes and thoughts from Biology 111, for Friday, September 19, 2008. The entire series can be found here.

As we took our first exam on Wednesday, September 17, there was no lecture for that day.

We took the first part of class to go over the exam results. I had left the exam feeling very good, figuring I was unsure about and may have missed two or three questions. Turns out, I missed eight.

Damn.

Out of 64 students in 3 sections, the highest score was a 91, the lowest a 29, and the median 67. I scored an 88.

Doc said not to sweat it too much, as the first exam is the one everyone does a little less well on, unfamiliar territory, etc., and he drops the lowest exam score.

I was rather surprised at about 5 of my 8 incorrect answers, thinking to myself, "What the hell were you thinking???? You know better than that!!!" I really pulled some dumb answers from out of my butt to very simple answers.

One of my incorrect answers though, was the molecular formula of maltose (two glucose molecules bonded together). Now, without thinking, I simply answered with double the formula of glucose, stupidly forgetting to subtract the water molecule from the hydrolysis synthesis that is required to form maltose from two glucose molecules (or any disaccharide from two monosaccharides).

Hence the unforgettable graphic I made subsequently. After making that animation, I will never repeat that mistake.

After going over the exam, we moved on to Chapter 6 - A Tour of the Cell.

Cell Theory

In 1839 Matthias Jakob Schleiden and Theodor Schwann each independently formulated the basic tenet of cell theory, Schleiden working with plants and Schwann working with animals.

All living things are composed of one (unicellular organisms) or more (multicellular organisms) cells.

Since a unicellular living thing is made up of just one cell (duh), it means that a cell is a living thing.

The cell is the basic unit of structure and function of all living things.

What is a cell?

Robert Hooke gave us the term "cell". Looking at the bark of a dead oak tree under a microscope, he observed that the structure he saw looked like little rooms, or cells.

A cell is defined by its plasma membrane, the outer bound that separates the non-living extracellular fluid (ECF - mostly water) from the intracellular fluid (ICF - also mostly water) inside the living cell. The ICF is made up of cytosol, a thick syrupy water solution containing proteins etc.

A cell must exist in ECF, or it will die. As an example, Doc pointed out that the upper layer of skin cells on the body are dead cells, as they are exposed to the air.

Way back in the beginning of the class, one of the properties we said helped to define living things was the need for nutrients and the production of waste. The cell, being a living thing, does indeed require nutrients and produces waste, in an exchange across the plasma membrane between the ECF and the ICF.

A cell must have operating instructions. Those instructions are in the form of a chromosome, and a cell must have at least one chromosome. (Humans have 23 pairs of them.) The instructions are instructions for making proteins. Those proteins are made by ribosomes (though I'm not entirely sure I caught exactly what the doc was saying here, and may have muffed that - corrections welcome).

Doc then drew up our tree again, labeling domains and pointing out how we know that the cell nucleus came after the split off of Bacteria and Archaea.



We ran out of time and had to pick up the differences between Prokarya and Eukarya on Monday.

   
Quote
From whence came the art:

The first image is of our textbook, Biology, Eighth Edition, by Campbell &amp; Reese et al.

Other images by me and are licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution- NonCommercial- Share Alike 3.0 License.


Edited by Lou FCD on Sep. 26 2008,15:08

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2008,14:00   

Failing to follow my own advice, here's a question for the chemists on the forum...

What is the molecular basis for the color change seen when iodine is added to starch or cellulose?

We do this iodine test in our class too; coincidentally we did it just today. But when a student asked me how that worked, I couldn't answer. Google has been marginally useful; there is the most informative link that I've found so far.

If you know the answer, and can deliver it at a level that a college freshman accounting major might understand, I'd like to hear it!

thanks

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2008,15:57   

Quote
Edited to change an onion into a potato.


Evilution disproofed!!111!!!!

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2008,18:13   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Sep. 26 2008,20:00)
Failing to follow my own advice, here's a question for the chemists on the forum...

What is the molecular basis for the color change seen when iodine is added to starch or cellulose?

We do this iodine test in our class too; coincidentally we did it just today. But when a student asked me how that worked, I couldn't answer. Google has been marginally useful; there is the most informative link that I've found so far.

If you know the answer, and can deliver it at a level that a college freshman accounting major might understand, I'd like to hear it!

thanks

I'll be on the case tomorrow!

Not only that, the post about bonding etc should be forthcoming. If not fifthcoming.

I are currently drunk, therefore not going to attempt it.

Will I be allowed to use words like "hypervalent" and "oxidation state"?

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2008,18:14   

Quote (Henry J @ Sep. 26 2008,21:57)
Quote
Edited to change an onion into a potato.


Evilution disproofed!!111!!!!

Naaaah that's macro(biotic)evolution proofederised!

Onion into potato is the same as cat into dog.

Whaddya mean it's still a vegetable?

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2008,18:30   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 26 2008,19:13)
Will I be allowed to use words like "hypervalent" and "oxidation state"?

Only if you define them first.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Texas Teach



Posts: 2084
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2008,18:48   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 26 2008,18:30)
 
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 26 2008,19:13)
Will I be allowed to use words like "hypervalent" and "oxidation state"?

Only if you define them first.

As Louis is currently in the process of making himself hypervalent, it may be necessary for someone to check his oxidation state before he is allowed to drive.

--------------
"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2008,19:18   

Words matter. I used 'Peanut Butter Jars' once and my prof called me on the phone to tell me that I needed to retype the page (before computers) and they were 'liter flasks'.

He was a little bit upset at my transgression.

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
Henry J



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Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2008,20:34   

As I recall, "oxidation state" is the number of electrons at atom has donated to other atoms in the molecule.

In H2O for example, each H has an oxidation state of +1, and the O has state -2.

It's sort of like saying what the charge would be if the covalent bonds were ionic instead of covalent.

Henry

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 26 2008,21:33   

Quote
Doc then drew up our tree again, labeling domains and pointing out how we know that the cell nucleus came after the split off of Bacteria and Archaea.




Is it fully settled yet whether the archaea is one domain, or two?

Tree of Life shows both ways, sort of like a movie with alternate endings. (Or beginnings?)

Henry

  
Lou FCD



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 27 2008,13:36   



My notes and thoughts from Biology 111, for Monday, September 22, 2008. The entire series can be found here.

Before we get to the actual lecture, there's something I need to address here.

While taking notes, it is often helpful and even necessary to draw little diagrams and pictures, many of which I reproduce in this series by digital means.

This is often simpler, neater, and more helpful than just scanning pages of notes from my notebook.

Until now, it's really not made much of a difference, but in this lecture we begin drawing diagrams of cell structure, and while it's not terribly difficult to do digitally, when drawing them in a notebook it is imperative for accuracy to understand the proper method for drawing a cell. It is a skill which requires a great deal of practice.

Chromosomes and various proteins for example, can be very complicated, and drawing them incorrectly can lead to gross misunderstandings and disaster for the student. To help prevent this, I've created a digital animation of the proper method for drawing a chromosome inside a prokaryotic cell. The method employed here can be extended and extrapolations to eukaryotic cell diagramming should not be difficult.

The method, along with this lecture, is below.



Note the technique for drawing the chromosome, and study it carefully. This method is known as the Charles Brown Structural and CellulaR Inscription and Basic Biology Lesson Extraction. It is the only acceptable method in our classroom.

We ended the previous lecture at the beginning of our tour of the cell, and the evolution of the nucleus of the eukaryotic cell. Indeed, the cell nucleus is what defines the eukaryote domain. Prokaryotes don't have a nucleus, but rather just a chromosome in the center of the cell, a pre-nucleus (hence the label prokaryote).

We began the new lecture with a quick review of the tree of life and the split between prokaryotes and eukaryotes, and then moved on to listing some differences between the two types of cells.

The Two Basic Cell Types

Prokaryotic                                     Eukaryotic

circular*          Chromosomes            linear*
usually 1                                         many
in cytoplasm                                    in nucleus

70s**               Ribosomes               80s**</td>


not present     Membrane Bound        present</td>
                       Organelles

1 - 10 µm            Size                    10 - 100 µm

*circular or linear: meaning the ends of the chromosome either connect or don't connect - as they are tangled up in a little ball, it is important to remember that the overall shape is not a circle or straight line

**70s and 80s are just a reference to size, with 80s being somewhat bigger than 70s


We're going to focus on Eukaryotic cells, as that domain contains the stuff we're most familiar with: plants, animals, algae, and fungi.

Eukaryotic Cell Structure

Before we get started here, let me point you to a really beautiful CGI animation of the workings of a cell. It was made by a company called XVIVO for Harvard University, and is titled The Inner Life of a Cell. It's about 8 minutes long, so watch the video, we'll discuss some of what is going on in that video, and then I'll remind you to go back and watch the video again at the end of our tour of the cell.

(The video is so amazingly well done that even the perpetrators of the Intelligent Design Creationism Hoax were so impressed with it that one of their "Leading Lights", Dr. Dr. (He's got two!!!) William A. Dembski by name, was busted having swiped it, clipped the credits, changed the title, and was using it in his "talks". Then he lied about it, and was busted in that lie too. Meanwhile, Ben Stein's utter failure of a piece of crap propaganda garbage called Expelled, got exposed for plagiarizing Inner Life as well. Such high standards of morality and integrity! Liars and thieves, the lot of them.)

(The wikipedia article has some decent diagrams of these structures, so I'm going to use them instead of my own here for illustrative purposes.)



1. Nucleus

In most eukaryotes, it is the largest structure in the cell. It's surrounded by a double membrane called the nuclear envelope. The envelope has tiny openings in it called pores.

It contains the chromosomes ---> Long molecules of DNA coiled around proteins ---> They are very, very long, but coiled up. They might be long enough to reach across a desk, but they have to fit inside the nucleus of the cell. A human being has 23 pairs of these things inside the nucleus of the cell. That big mass of 23 pairs of chromosomes is called chromatin.

Also inside the nucleus is the nucleolus ---> manufactures ribosomal RNA (rRNA). One or sometimes more than one in the nucleus.

2. Ribosomes

Sites of protein synthesis. Consists of 2 subunits of rRNA + protein We'll cover this more in Unit 4, later in the semester.

There are two groups of Ribosomes in the cell, the free and the bound (or fixed).

The free ribosomes, as the name implies, float freely in the cytoplasm, while the bound ribosomes are attached (or bound, duh) to membranes (the outer membrane of the nucleus or the outer membrane of the endoplasmic reticulum.

The other major difference is that the free ribosomes produce proteins for use in the cytoplasm of the cell, like enzymes to begin the breakdown of sugars. The bound ribosomes produce proteins for use elsewhere. Insulin is a good example of this. It is produced inside the cells of the pancreas, but used elsewhere to regulate the sugar level.

3. Endoplasmic Reticulum, or ER

endo - "inside"

plasmic - "cytoplasm"

reticulum - "net"

The ER surrounds the nucleus and is continuous with the outer membrane of the nucleus. It's divided into two parts:

Rough ER ---> has bound ribosomes, and thus looks rough. The Rough ER produces proteins for export to other organelles or other cells.

Smooth ER ---> does not have bound ribosomes, and thus looks smooth. The Smooth ER synthesizes lipids, stores Calcium (Ca2+), detoxifies chemicals ---> the enzymes inside are especially important in the liver, for example.

Proteins leave the ER via a transport vesicle. This is actually a very cool process whereby the protein presses up against the membrane of the ER, then pushes further and further out, like an erupting zit, until it forms a big blister on the outside of the ER. Eventually, the blister itself breaks free and acts like a bubble around the protein as it travels to the Golgi Apparatus.

4. Golgi Apparatus

The golgi apparatus looks kind of like a stack of pancakes or coins. When a transport vesicle touches the golgi apparatus, the membrane of the transport vesicle fuses with the membrane of the golgi apparatus. Then the blistering pimple process is repeated in reverse, and the protein is delivered inside the golgi apparatus. That's just frackin' cool.

The protein enters by transport vesicle on one end of the golgi apparatus, called the cis (or receiving) side. It will eventually leave via the trans (or shipping) side. (This is where the term cis comes from in relation to discussions with transsexual folks, if you've heard that term bandied about. Cis folks are just non-trans folks. Now you know. Next time, do your own homework.)

Inside the golgi apparatus, the protein is modified for whatever task it needs to perform. It may have sugars added or sections of the protein might be removed, etc.

The protein which entered on the cis side and was then modified in the golgi apparatus is then ready for shipping from the trans side. It's packaged up and shipped via the transport vesicle mechanism, just like before.

The transport vesicle has a protein on the outside that works like an address label, telling the vesicle where the delivery is to be made. It might go directly to the plasma membrane and exit via the same process, or it can travel to another organelle within the cell and be delivered via the same process, or it might just stay in the cytoplasm and become another membrane bound organelle, depending on its pupose.

Lysosomes are a good example of that last.

5. Lysosomes

A lysosome is a vesicle filled with hydrolytic enzymes (digestive)

Hydrolytic ---> hydrolysis (that's convenient, huh?)

The enzymes use hydrolysis to digest, or break down, stuff the cell needs broken down, like carbohydrates or proteins, etc. Different lysosomes digest different things. They are the cell's recycling guys.

They might recycle worn out organelles, breaking them down into their constituent parts to be transported and reused within the cell.

They might digest bacterial infections, etc.

Lysosomes normally digest cancerous cells.

Lysosomes can tell a cell to suicide if damaged. They also tells some cells to suicide in the normal process of development. The webs between the fingers and toes of an embryo are digested this way.

And with that, this lecture ran out of time. We picked up the discussion of eukaryotic cell structures with the next lecture, taking up mitochondria, chloroplasts, the cytoskeleton, and cilia and flagella.


 
Quote
From whence came the art:

The first image is of our textbook, Biology, Eighth Edition, by Campbell &amp; Reese et al.

The image of the cell structure is a screenshot of the Wikipedia article for the Endoplasmic Reticulum. The image has been released into the public domain by its author, Magnus Manske.

Other images by me and are licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution- NonCommercial- Share Alike 3.0 License.


--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Marion Delgado



Posts: 89
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 27 2008,15:44   

Re the poor termite sacrificed on the altar of Dawkins/Darwin:

I notice this so-called "Lou - an obviously made up ideal composite "student" "of" "biology" - grasps at straw after straw in order to avoid even raising the hypothesis that one of God's creatures is following God's purpose.

Even after secular hypotheses crumble, each one more desperate than the one before, he clings to the faith that there has to be some sort of materialist mechanistic explanation. Despite the lack of positive evidence for it, he even invokes the idea that ballpoint pen ink, which anyone who had a mother would know is very poisonous, is some sort of food the termite follows around.

Experiment if you dare:

put a pile of termite food on one part of the paper (wood shavings?) and a pool of ballpoint pen ink on another. Which does the termite follow?

Conclusion: the "following a chemical" hypothesis is for dimbulbs who think Godlessness is a substitute for rational thought.

Here's an idea: What if red/black ink circling behavior in termites is irreducibly complex? then any attempt to break it down to components will destroy the information, won't it?

  
Texas Teach



Posts: 2084
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 27 2008,16:36   

Quote (Marion Delgado @ Sep. 27 2008,15:44)
Re the poor termite sacrificed on the altar of Dawkins/Darwin:

I notice this so-called "Lou - an obviously made up ideal composite "student" "of" "biology" - grasps at straw after straw in order to avoid even raising the hypothesis that one of God's creatures is following God's purpose.

Even after secular hypotheses crumble, each one more desperate than the one before, he clings to the faith that there has to be some sort of materialist mechanistic explanation. Despite the lack of positive evidence for it, he even invokes the idea that ballpoint pen ink, which anyone who had a mother would know is very poisonous, is some sort of food the termite follows around.

Experiment if you dare:

put a pile of termite food on one part of the paper (wood shavings?) and a pool of ballpoint pen ink on another. Which does the termite follow?

Conclusion: the "following a chemical" hypothesis is for dimbulbs who think Godlessness is a substitute for rational thought.

Here's an idea: What if red/black ink circling behavior in termites is irreducibly complex? then any attempt to break it down to components will destroy the information, won't it?

Poe's(t) of the week.

--------------
"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 27 2008,16:55   

lol, it's so hard to tell anymore.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Marion Delgado



Posts: 89
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2008,19:51   

By the way, Lou, as someone whose biology notes in college were always much-borrowed, I think you take very good notes. Illustrations are vital, and you take due note of that.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 02 2008,06:42   

Lou,

I haven't forgotten about you, I'm writing the bonding thingy as and when I get time. It's actually a useful thing for me to be doing, for reasons I'll explain when I post it.

Also not forgotten is the starch/iodine thing.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 02 2008,06:53   

Quote (Marion Delgado @ Oct. 01 2008,20:51)
By the way, Lou, as someone whose biology notes in college were always much-borrowed, I think you take very good notes. Illustrations are vital, and you take due note of that.

Thank you sir. The drawing actually takes more time and effort than the notes themselves, and that's part of what's keeping me behind on posting the notes.

You're right though, the illustrations are vital, at least for me. Nothing in biology makes sense except in light of evolution, and nothing in Biology notes make sense except in light of illustrations.

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 02 2008,07:42)
Lou,

I haven't forgotten about you, I'm writing the bonding thingy as and when I get time. It's actually a useful thing for me to be doing, for reasons I'll explain when I post it.

Also not forgotten is the starch/iodine thing.

Louis


Okee dokee, Louis. I can always be patient for the promise of a little bondage.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 03 2008,11:13   

I think I screwed the pooch on a pop quiz this morning, dealing with passive transport and concentration gradients.

Just couldn't get my damned head together for some reason.

On the other hand, I got my third English essay back this morning. The prompt was a personal narrative.

It's up on my blog, if anyone's interested:

8 Seconds

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 16 2008,16:44   

Quote
concentration gradients

Hey, those came up on the train wrecked thread on PT.

Henry

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,19:25   

Precalc midterm sucked. Just so y'know.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2008,10:53   

Well that doesn't sound good.

Precalc? is that something between algebra and calculus?

Henry

  
blipey



Posts: 2061
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2008,11:05   

Quote (Henry J @ Oct. 23 2008,10:53)
Well that doesn't sound good.

Precalc? is that something between algebra and calculus?

Henry

I think it focuses on trig and analytic geometry, but that's only a vague memory from tutoring while I was in engineering school; I never took the class.

--------------
But I get the trick question- there isn't any such thing as one molecule of water. -JoeG

And scientists rarely test theories. -Gary Gaulin

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2008,12:03   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 02 2008,12:42)
Lou,

I haven't forgotten about you, I'm writing the bonding thingy as and when I get time. It's actually a useful thing for me to be doing, for reasons I'll explain when I post it.

Also not forgotten is the starch/iodine thing.

Louis

Still not forgotten! I haven't had any time for anything other than work/family commitments this last week or two. What with various birthdays and outings I am stuck in real life!

Apologies, it WILL be worth it however.....well when I've added all the diagrams and equations to Image Shack and worked out just how many posts it's going to take....

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,05:34   

Quote (Henry J @ Oct. 23 2008,11:53)
Well that doesn't sound good.

Precalc? is that something between algebra and calculus?

Henry

I don't think I did well, but I guess it remains to be seen. Should have the exam back on Monday, I think.

Precalc is two classes, the first focuses on algebra, the second on geometry.

I'm taking the first one, and I guess I'm not meshing well with the teacher's style at this point. I'm a little frustrated.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,05:40   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 23 2008,12:03)
Still not forgotten! I haven't had any time for anything other than work/family commitments this last week or two. What with various birthdays and outings I am stuck in real life!

Scene from the Louis household.



--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,09:02   

It's funny how that photo mirrors social science research, which shows guys just going nonresponsive to their mates over time.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,09:03   

Quote (Henry J @ Oct. 16 2008,17:44)
wrecked thread on PT

"Sir we've got a redundancy alarm on ATBC"
"Ignore it."

   
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,09:04   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Oct. 24 2008,06:40)
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 23 2008,12:03)
Still not forgotten! I haven't had any time for anything other than work/family commitments this last week or two. What with various birthdays and outings I am stuck in real life!

Scene from the Louis household.


That lolcat is so damn funny...and it's going to get me in so much trouble.

To Lou, sorry to hear precalc isn't going as well.  It's just a midterm though and plenty of time to recover.  

Yeah, it can be hard to adapt to different profs...I always found it odd that I could start of really not liking a professor but as the class progressed I began to understand them a bit more.  Whether it was a matter of them warming up to the class, or us understanding their quirks, or something else, it sometimes just took a while.  One of my professors that I...well, not hated but had a great deal of dislike for initially eventually I came to really respect and, if not enjoy, apprecaite.  Maybe not what you are talking about but my two Lincolns nonetheless.

Good luck and keep your head up.  You'll do fine.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,13:03   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 24 2008,15:02)
It's funny how that photo mirrors social science research, which shows guys just going nonresponsive to their mates over time.

"Yes dear"

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 24 2008,19:38   

Quote (Spottedwind @ Oct. 24 2008,10:04)
To Lou, sorry to hear precalc isn't going as well.  It's just a midterm though and plenty of time to recover.  

Yeah, it can be hard to adapt to different profs...I always found it odd that I could start of really not liking a professor but as the class progressed I began to understand them a bit more.  Whether it was a matter of them warming up to the class, or us understanding their quirks, or something else, it sometimes just took a while.  One of my professors that I...well, not hated but had a great deal of dislike for initially eventually I came to really respect and, if not enjoy, apprecaite.  Maybe not what you are talking about but my two Lincolns nonetheless.

Good luck and keep your head up.  You'll do fine.

heh, actually, I'm having the exact opposite experience with my precalc teacher.

She's nice enough, but the further the class goes, the less I seem able to get from her.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 09 2008,16:16   

I haven't forgotten this thread, things have just been very busy. Weekly quizzes in precalc, I just had a Spanish exam Thursday morning, and a Biology exam on Friday morning.

Biology exam was on mitosis, meiosis, chromosomes and Mendel's inheritance experiments, monomy, trisomy, polywhatsisfacething, short fruit flies with purple flowers and red eyed pea plants, nondisjunction, and sundry related messy biolomological stuff.

Added to that there was an English paper in there somewhere, and a viral induced meltdown of my computer, resulting in a new (albeit cheap WalMart special) laptop as a replacement. (While that will keep me writing papers and whatnot, I have IMPORTANT CRAP on that old hard drive, that I have GOT to get back.)

On the upside, I'm running Ubuntu on the new laptop. I'm always happy about giving the finger to Microsoft Beta Testing Inc.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 09 2008,16:17   

Oh, and I wound up with a B on that precalc midterm, fwiw. Suckage.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 09 2008,16:18   

Quote
short fruit flies with purple flowers and red eyed pea plants


I think there's a poem in there somewhere.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 09 2008,16:25   

Quote (khan @ Nov. 09 2008,17:18)
Quote
short fruit flies with purple flowers and red eyed pea plants


I think there's a poem in there somewhere.

It would of course involve sex (linked genes).

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 09 2008,16:29   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Nov. 09 2008,22:25)
Quote (khan @ Nov. 09 2008,17:18)
Quote
short fruit flies with purple flowers and red eyed pea plants


I think there's a poem in there somewhere.

It would of course involve sex....

{Eyebrows raise}

Quote
...(linked genes).


CURSES! Foiled again.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 09 2008,18:44   

Fruit flies have purple flowers? Huh.

Were any hollow grams involved in that?

Henry

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 09 2008,18:47   

Quote (Louis @ Nov. 09 2008,17:29)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Nov. 09 2008,22:25)
 
Quote (khan @ Nov. 09 2008,17:18)
 
Quote
short fruit flies with purple flowers and red eyed pea plants


I think there's a poem in there somewhere.

It would of course involve sex....

{Eyebrows raise}

 
Quote
...(linked genes).


CURSES! Foiled again.

Louis

(x + 3) (x + 7) = x2 + 7x + 3x + 21 = x2 + 10x + 21

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 09 2008,18:52   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Nov. 09 2008,19:47)
Quote (Louis @ Nov. 09 2008,17:29)
 
Quote (Lou FCD @ Nov. 09 2008,22:25)
 
Quote (khan @ Nov. 09 2008,17:18)
   
Quote
short fruit flies with purple flowers and red eyed pea plants


I think there's a poem in there somewhere.

It would of course involve sex....

{Eyebrows raise}

 
Quote
...(linked genes).


CURSES! Foiled again.

Louis

(x + 3) (x + 7) = x2 + 7x + 3x + 21 = x2 + 10x + 21

Reminds me of ninth grade, when I discovered (and fell in love with) algebra.

23 X 17 = 20x20 - 3x3 = 400 - 9 = 391

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 09 2008,18:57   

Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 09 2008,19:44)
Fruit flies have purple flowers? Huh.

Were any hollow grams involved in that?

Henry

Possibly, but they were tense and progressive, presently.

There was something about a star and a sir in there, but I don't think I'm taking an astronomy class.

Things are getting a little jumbled up.

ETA: To be or the other to be, THAT is really the question.

Edited by Lou FCD on Nov. 09 2008,19:58

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 10 2008,13:43   

So I got the results of my Biology exam back this morning.

After walking out of the first one so confident and then finding out I got a B, I was hesitant to be confident about this one. I felt good about it, seemed like I should do well, but ...

anyway, I got a 97. (70 questions. I missed 2, and I understand why I missed them, so that's good.)

I'm pretty happy about that.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 10 2008,14:10   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Nov. 10 2008,13:43)
So I got the results of my Biology exam back this morning.

After walking out of the first one so confident and then finding out I got a B, I was hesitant to be confident about this one. I felt good about it, seemed like I should do well, but ...

anyway, I got a 97. (70 questions. I missed 2, and I understand why I missed them, so that's good.)

I'm pretty happy about that.



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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 10 2008,14:14   

I can't seem to get an invite to band camp though....

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 10 2008,17:46   

well lou you are sticking the flute in the wrong place.

congrats on yer test!

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
bfish



Posts: 267
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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 10 2008,19:05   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Nov. 10 2008,11:43)
So I got the results of my Biology exam back this morning.

anyway, I got a 97.

Hey, congratulations!

Are you still doing your drosophila lab, or is that over with? I haven't kept track if that was one generation ago or two. When it's finished, I'd be curious to hear what the experiment was.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 10 2008,20:55   

Quote (bfish @ Nov. 10 2008,20:05)
   
Quote (Lou FCD @ Nov. 10 2008,11:43)
So I got the results of my Biology exam back this morning.

anyway, I got a 97.

Hey, congratulations!

Are you still doing your drosophila lab, or is that over with? I haven't kept track if that was one generation ago or two. When it's finished, I'd be curious to hear what the experiment was.

Thanks to you both.

That lab we finished last Monday.

Here's what it was:

We were given a bunk of knocked out fruit flies and told how to tell the males from the females. We picked out five males and five females, and put some maggot food (blue sticky stuff) in the bottom of a tube that was similar to a really fat test tube. We kept the tubes on their side, so the unconscious flies didn't get stuck in the maggot food and starve to death.

Now, we were given this information: Our flies were F1 generation flies, and the P generation was kept in a lab out in Durham or Greensboro or somewhere. In the P generation, all the males had red eyes, and all the females had white eyes.

In our F1 generation, I checked them out under a microscope and all the males had white eyes and all the females had red eyes, exactly the opposite of the P generation.

So, the question was, "What will the F2 generation have in the way of eye color?"

If eye color were an autosomal Dominant/recessive allele, then we would expect that barring any hanky-panky skewing of the F1 generation by picking out flies with particular eye colors, we would expect that our flies would have a 3:1 ratio of the eye color coded for by the Dominant allele to the eye color coded for by the recessive allele, and that it would be the same ratio regardless of the sex of the flies.*

Since we had such a definite correlation to sex, it was pretty obvious that the gene was sex linked. Since females and male were demonstrably capable of having either eye color, it had to be linked to the X chromosome (since girl flies don't have a Y chromosome).

Ok, so we know then that the gene for eye color in fruit flies is coded for in the X chromosome. So which color is Dominant, and which recessive?

If white were the Dominant trait, then all the P generation males would have to have the recessive, w, and the females either heterozygous Ww, or homozygous Dominant, WW.

Remembering that females inherit an X chromosome from their mother and an X chromosome from their father, we would expect that the F1 generation females would then have either half white and half red eyes if their mothers were heterozygous, or all white eyes if their mothers were homozygous Dominant. (Each of the males would inherit their X chomosome from their mother, so we would expect them to all have white eyes if their mothers were homozygous Dominant, or half red and half white if their mothers were heterozygous. - remember they only get one X, and Dad donates the Y)

IF: Pfemales = WW and Pmales = w, then F1females should = Ww and have white eyes.

IF:  Pfemales = Ww and Pmales = w, then F1females should = 50% Ww and have white eyes and 50% ww and have red eyes.

ALL our females had red eyes, so white could not possibly be the Dominant trait.

BUT IF: Red is the Dominant allele, then we know that the P generation females were homozygous recessive:

SO :  Pfemales = rr and Pmales = R, then all F1females should = Rr and have red eyes. The males would all be r, and have white eyes, which is exactly what we saw.

That then was my hypothesis, because it matched the available evidence.

A week after we put the flies in, we knocked them out again with fly nap, removed the F1 adult flies, and set them free (or euthanized them, our choice), leaving a squirming mass of maggots in the blue stuff at the bottom of the tube.

Given that, our task was now to form a prediction as to the eye color of the F2 generation flies.

Because the F1 flies broke down this way according to my hypothesis:

Females: Rr     -  Males: r

and the females would get one X from each parent, the males one X from Mamma fly, I predicted that:

Females: 50% Rr with Red eyes, 50% rr with white eyes
Males: 50% R with Red eyes, 50% r with white eyes

Last Monday, we checked out our tubes full of F2 generation flies.

Our count:

Females 22 Red eyes, 13 White eyes
Males 17 Red eyes, 13 White eyes

...which was a bit disconcerting.

At first glance, I thought class totals were more in line with my hypothesis. However, excluding our count, the totals were:

Females 82 Red eyes, 68 White eyes
Males 71 Red eyes, 65 White eyes

Still not perfect, but closer. We still seemed to be a bit heavy on Red eyed females.

Looking at the x2 goodness of fit, we see that our group:

((22 - 17.5)2 / 17.5) + ((13 - 17.5)2 / 17.5 = 2.314, which yields a p-value of between 0.1 and 0.2 (with one degree of freedom) for our females.

Kinda weak, but above passable support for the hypothesis.

For the males, we have

((17 - 15)2 / 15) + ((13 - 15)2 / 15) = 0.533, which yields a p-value of between 0.3 and 0.5 (with one degree of freedom) for our males.

I'm much happier with the male prediction.

The class as a whole, including our results,

((104 - 92.5)2 / 92.5) + ((81 - 92.5)2 / 92.5) = 2.85 and a p-value of between 0.10 and .05 for our females.

((88 - 83)2 / 83) + ((78 - 83)2 / 83) = 0.602 and a p-value of between 0.30 and 0.50 for our males.**

I haven't yet run the numbers on the mixed sex results, as that will require some thought regarding degrees of freedom, I think. My brain hasn't caught up to me on that yet.

There were a couple groups (ours was one) who were way off on females, and are the bulk of the cause of the odd female numbers. The other groups were pretty close to 50/50 on the females, and most of the groups (but not all) were pretty close with the males.

That leaves some questions to be answered, but with the lab done, all that's left is the report. I'd like to run the experiment several more times, just to find out what's up for my own personal edification.***

*Fruit flies have an XX / XY sex chromosome set-up like humans

**Raw numbers for those of you interested:
                        F(red)          F(white)           M(red)       M(white)

Group 1 (us)   22                13                     17               13
Group 2           18                11                     21               16
Group 3           11                13                     6                  8
Group 4           12                14                     8                  12
Group 5           16                 12                    11                9
Group 6           25                 18                    25                20
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals             104               81                     88               78****

***I'll get the chance next semester, but that's a (VERY happy, cool) story for a different post.

**** Feel free to check my math, as well as the rest of the post. It's late, and I'm tired.*****

*****Editated to try and straighten out the asterisks.

Edited by Lou FCD on Nov. 10 2008,21:59

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
bfish



Posts: 267
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 10 2008,21:55   

Thanks for the detailed description of the task and of your thought process, which I'm impressed with. I'm always curious what gets taught and how.

Those flies are pretty cool, eh?

Quote

Ok, so we know then that the gene for eye color in fruit flies is coded for in the X chromosome.


Just a minor quibble: It's not the case that THE gene for eye color in Drosophila is on the X, but rather that A gene for eye color is on the X. There are other genes involved in making pigment that are on different chromosomes. Your white eyes were the result of a single gene being knocked out, but you can also get white eyes by knocking out two or more genes in combination that, when knocked out singly, give a different eye color, neither red nor white.

As a historical aside, the mutant gene you got to play with was the very first Drosophila mutant ever found.

Your numbers sound OK to me. I'm surprised you got so few progeny from five females, though. Either the food is not so nutritious (I know the blue food of which you speak), or y'all are counting the flies before they've all come out. That could help explain the unbalanced numbers. (Although I think chance explains it just fine, being, of course, a chance worshipper). How many days after you set up the F1 crosses did you score the progeny, and what temperature were they grown in?

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 10 2008,22:09   

Quote (bfish @ Nov. 10 2008,22:55)
Thanks for the detailed description of the task and of your thought process, which I'm impressed with. I'm always curious what gets taught and how.

Those flies are pretty cool, eh?

 
Quote

Ok, so we know then that the gene for eye color in fruit flies is coded for in the X chromosome.


Just a minor quibble: It's not the case that THE gene for eye color in Drosophila is on the X, but rather that A gene for eye color is on the X. There are other genes involved in making pigment that are on different chromosomes. Your white eyes were the result of a single gene being knocked out, but you can also get white eyes by knocking out two or more genes in combination that, when knocked out singly, give a different eye color, neither red nor white.

As a historical aside, the mutant gene you got to play with was the very first Drosophila mutant ever found.

Your numbers sound OK to me. I'm surprised you got so few progeny from five females, though. Either the food is not so nutritious (I know the blue food of which you speak), or y'all are counting the flies before they've all come out. That could help explain the unbalanced numbers. (Although I think chance explains it just fine, being, of course, a chance worshipper). How many days after you set up the F1 crosses did you score the progeny, and what temperature were they grown in?

Thanks, and thanks for the clarification on the eye color.

We did go over the original experiment (early 20th century) in lecture this past week, which was cool in conjunction with Mendel's peas.

Doc mentioned today that we were on the low end of the various labs, that other classes were hitting in the 50s and up for each sex/eye color. He speculated that we just got to them early, and because the other labs were a day or two after us, they got better results.

Room temperature, by the way, whatever that happened to be. There were certainly still a ton of maggots in the blue stuff when we removed the adults, so maybe you're right on that. We went from Monday to Monday to Monday on the lab, so it was seven days to adult removal, and another seven until we counted adults in the next generation.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
bfish



Posts: 267
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 10 2008,23:16   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Nov. 10 2008,20:09)
Room temperature, by the way, whatever that happened to be. There were certainly still a ton of maggots in the blue stuff when we removed the adults, so maybe you're right on that. We went from Monday to Monday to Monday on the lab, so it was seven days to adult removal, and another seven until we counted adults in the next generation.

I see. Let's say room temperature is about 21 degrees C. Those flies wouldn't start emerging at all until Day 12 or 13 at that temperature, so yeah, if you were counting after 14 days, the flies were only just coming out. This can skew results for some genotypes, in that flies carrying different mutant backgrounds can tend to emerge at different rates. That's not particularly the case with white, but having a bigger n probably would have helped make your results match up a little closer to theory.

  
Lou FCD



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 11 2008,09:37   

OK, wait.

Degrees of Freedom wrt males. I think i r doin it rong.

ETA: ok, nevermind. I confused myself for a moment.

Edited by Lou FCD on Nov. 11 2008,10:39

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
OWKtree



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Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 11 2008,10:11   

Red-eyed pea plant sway

Fruit flies follow Time's arrow

Prefer bananas?

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 11 2008,12:43   

Time flies like an arrow.

Fruit flies like a banana.

  
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 12 2008,22:25   

Time's fun when you're having flies says the frog.

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 22 2008,06:55   

Ok, I suppose the cat can be released at this point.

There are somewhere about 10 students left in my Bio 111 lecture, about the same in my lab. Considering we started out with well over double that, this is disappointing.

Coastal recognizes this is a persistent problem in particular classes and has a plan to address this high drop/fail rate in these classes. Building on a model from U Missouri KC, they are considering instituting what will be known as the PASS program (Peer Assisted Study Sessions). They will be taking a student that has done well in the class in a previous semester and having that student lead a voluntary group study session a few times a week, so that the student who did well in the past can give students currently taking the class some help.

It's a paid position (not much, but some), and the peer group leader has to keep separate office hours in addition to the group study sessions, to be available for individual assistance.

Additionally, the peer group leader repeats the class (for free and not for a grade) to keep current with the various sections.

Doc asked me a few weeks ago if I'd do this next semester (assuming the college follows through - it's not 100% commitment yet), and at the time said I was the first one he thought of. I was pretty chuffed about that, regardless of whether I got the position.

He gave me a letter of recommendation, and I turned that in with my application for employment, and the interview went well, I think.

I spoke to Doc yesterday about some unrelated stuff, and he told me that I was the only one he recommended for the job. Since the position requires a letter of recommendation from an instructor that teaches the course, and he's the only Bio 111 instructor...

IF the college follows through with this, not only will I get the opportunity to sit in on the class again, but I'll be sitting in on ALL FOUR SECTIONS. Now, in addition to the study sessions, the office hours, the face time I'll have to have with Doc, the face time I'll have to have with the program director, four Bio 111 lectures and labs...

That's a lot of time.

I lightened my course load a bit, and only registered for 12 hours next semester. I'm taking 14 this semester and had planned on upping that a little with maybe one extra class (I was eyeballing zoology), but it's just not going to happen.

For next semester, I'm taking Conceptual Physics (intro course recommended to me by the dept head) + lab, Bio 112 + lab, Literature-based research (English 113), and this ACA 111 course that the college requires of all students (it's like "Intro to Academic Success" or something and it's a one credit class which I'm taking online).

I think that's going to be more than enough of a load, figuring in the PASS leader thing.

Anyway, I'm pretty excited about the program, and about being asked to do it.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 22 2008,07:18   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Nov. 22 2008,06:55)
Anyway, I'm pretty excited about the program, and about being asked to do it.

Congrats, Lou!

We have a similar program here. Students who do well in our intro course can assist in instruction in that course in subsequent semesters as "practicum" instructors. It is a good way to learn the material at a deeper level than you will learn it as a student, simply because you have to know it well enough to explain it other students, and that means you have to know it from about 10 different angles! The practicum students come from our biology majors and our science education majors, and they report that they learn a lot about biology and a lot about pedagogy from this experience.

It sounds like a lot of time and work there, but I suspect that it will be worth the effort.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 22 2008,07:53   

Thanks, Alb.

On top of that, it dawns on me that best of all, it means I must be doing half-way decently in 111 this semester, or he wouldn't have asked or recommended me.

It's a welcome reassurance.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 24 2008,14:10   

Exam in Bio this morning. Snuck over to his office later and twisted Doc's arm a bit.

I got a 93.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
keiths



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 24 2008,14:35   

Regarding the PASS program:  since you plan a career in teaching, this will be excellent practice!

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
J-Dog



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 24 2008,14:53   

Total congrats Dude!  I can't wait for you to transfer to Johns Hopkins, or Lehigh!

There would be a book, maybe a mini-series with making both Sal and Behe cry, I think.

SRSLY - rock on

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 24 2008,19:56   

Quote (keiths @ Nov. 24 2008,15:35)
Regarding the PASS program:  since you plan a career in teaching, this will be excellent practice!

That was kind of my thought, too. Sort of an early warm up.

I hope it goes through.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 24 2008,19:56   

Quote (J-Dog @ Nov. 24 2008,15:53)
Total congrats Dude!  I can't wait for you to transfer to Johns Hopkins, or Lehigh!

There would be a book, maybe a mini-series with making both Sal and Behe cry, I think.

SRSLY - rock on

I love the way your mind works.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 25 2008,15:04   

Just got the phone call I've been waiting on.


...I got the job.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
khan



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 25 2008,15:15   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Nov. 25 2008,16:04)
Just got the phone call I've been waiting on.


...I got the job.

That's great.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 25 2008,15:49   

Quote (khan @ Nov. 25 2008,16:15)
That's great.

Thank you, Khan.

I'm rather excited about the opportunity.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Henry J



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 25 2008,16:06   

Hi ho, hi ho, it's off to work ya go...

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 25 2008,16:26   

I'm suddenly apprehensive about it, Henry. I haven't worked since the accident six years ago. I hope my body holds up.

On the upside, whenever I fill out any kind of form for anything, it always asks about my employment status. There's never a spot that says, "useless cripple", so I always have to answer "unemployed", though sometimes, just for fun, I put "retired". :)

It's always a crappy feeling to put "unemployed". Makes me feel rather ... uh... crappy...

Of course, now nobody will ever ask again...

bastards.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Texas Teach



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 25 2008,17:10   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Nov. 25 2008,16:26)
I'm suddenly apprehensive about it, Henry. I haven't worked since the accident six years ago. I hope my body holds up.

On the upside, whenever I fill out any kind of form for anything, it always asks about my employment status. There's never a spot that says, "useless cripple", so I always have to answer "unemployed", though sometimes, just for fun, I put "retired". :)

It's always a crappy feeling to put "unemployed". Makes me feel rather ... uh... crappy...

Of course, now nobody will ever ask again...

bastards.

I had similar work as an undergrad chem major helping with lab classes.  I spent a couple of weeks navigating the tiny spaces in the lab between students on crutches after injuring my ankle.   Not because I needed the money, but because I loved the work.  They couldn't keep me away.  It made me a much better TA when I got to grad school, and that lead me to my career teaching.  You'll do fine.  Be kind, be patient, be knowledgeable, and be willing to say "I don't know, but I'll find out".

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"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
JohnW



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Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 25 2008,17:39   

Quote (Texas Teach @ Nov. 25 2008,15:10)
Be kind, be patient, be knowledgeable, and be willing to say "I don't know, but I'll find outGoddidit".

Fixed that for you.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 25 2008,17:46   

Quote (Texas Teach @ Nov. 25 2008,17:10)
Be kind, be patient, be knowledgeable, and be willing

But don't Behe.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Spottedwind



Posts: 83
Joined: Aug. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 26 2008,09:25   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Nov. 25 2008,16:04)
Just got the phone call I've been waiting on.


...I got the job.

Work has picked up the past few weeks, so I haven't been able to check in (DT left UD?!?!), but this is awesome news to return to.  The exam, the PASS, all of it, congrats!

Now if you could just spread a little of that luck around, that'd be great  ;)

Seriously though, you've earned what you've worked for and I hope that it turns out great.

  
Lou FCD



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 26 2008,16:36   

Thanks all, I'll see what I can do about spreading some of the luck, though I'd better keep some in reserve for the time that makes up most of my life.

:)

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 14 2008,17:25   

Final Exam tomorrow morning at 8. Lab at 11 with a final test (as opposed to a Final Exam).

I hope to go back and finish this series beginning next weekend, after my final Final.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Texas Teach



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 14 2008,17:56   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Dec. 14 2008,17:25)
Final Exam tomorrow morning at 8. Lab at 11 with a final test (as opposed to a Final Exam).

I hope to go back and finish this series beginning next weekend, after my final Final.

Good luck on the test.  I'm looking forward to seeing more of your reports, they've been missed.

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"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 15 2008,12:40   

Thanks TT.

I got a 94 on the final. I'd love to just wallow in the wave of relief, but precalc final looms at 5 tonight.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
jeffox



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 20 2008,14:21   

It's too soon to know my scores, (or my overall grades) but I finished all my finals yesterday.  I feel that I didn't do too good on my Precalc or my Intro to Archeology finals, but I think I did pretty well on Min/Pet.

Right now, I expect C/B+/B respectively.  We'll see.

I am set up completely for next semester, and that will begin in one month.

I trust that you were all A's/4.0, right Lou?  

Or, maybe like me, that you feel that you learned a lot & had fun.  Best of luck to you next semester, too!

  
olegt



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 20 2008,14:41   

Lou,

Congrats on the successful end of the semester and on the new job!

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Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 20 2008,15:40   

Quote (jeffox @ Dec. 20 2008,15:21)
It's too soon to know my scores, (or my overall grades) but I finished all my finals yesterday.  I feel that I didn't do too good on my Precalc or my Intro to Archeology finals, but I think I did pretty well on Min/Pet.

Right now, I expect C/B+/B respectively.  We'll see.

I am set up completely for next semester, and that will begin in one month.

I trust that you were all A's/4.0, right Lou?  

Or, maybe like me, that you feel that you learned a lot & had fun.  Best of luck to you next semester, too!

:) No, I got a B in precalc. I had some struggles mid-semester and couldn't quite recover my A.

A in Spanish though (100 average and 100 on the final), A in English, and don't know yet but think I'm borderline A/B in Biology. The chem in the beginning gave me a stumble a bit and I suck at pop quizzes. Depends on their weight, I think.

Thanks Oleg.

On a quasi-good note, I got the letter the other day letting me know what courses they'll accept transfer credit for from my 2 1/2 semester stint at Marshall in the mid nineties. I didn't expect any transfer credit at all, so when they said they would give me 6 credits for my Psych and Speech classes, I was just tickled I wouldn't have to take those boring ass classes again.

I had 24 credits, but like I say, they were 12 years old. I didn't expect to get credit for any of them.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
carlsonjok



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 20 2008,18:05   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Dec. 20 2008,15:40)
A in Spanish though (100 average and 100 on the final), A in English,

Have you decided which language you are going to learn?

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 20 2008,19:38   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Dec. 20 2008,19:05)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Dec. 20 2008,15:40)
A in Spanish though (100 average and 100 on the final), A in English,

Have you decided which language you are going to learn?

Yes. Portugese, because it's a mixture of French and Spanish. I took French in high school, so when I'm done with Spanish, all I have to do is mix the words together, right?


right?

(Where's AFDaveyDoodles when you need him?????

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
jeffox



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2008,13:25   

Lou wrote:

Quote
:) No, I got a B in precalc. I had some struggles mid-semester and couldn't quite recover my A.

A in Spanish though (100 average and 100 on the final), A in English, and don't know yet but think I'm borderline A/B in Biology.


Nice grades!  And also congrats, and wishing you best of luck on your upcoming semesters.

BTW, I was also surprised at UWEC taking most of my credits from UMM* from back in the latter 1980s.  Accredation means something, I guess.  :)  They save me about a year-and-a-half of work.  Like you, I didn't think that they'd apply, so it's nice that they did!

*Believe it or not, TARDavison is actually correct when he's written that UMM was an old cattle school.  Of course, that was about 100 years ago.  But don't spoil the old fart's fun, eh?   :)   :p

I, myself, got laughs from my classmates when I called it, "little school on the prairie."   I was there for a pre-engineering degree, in anticipation of getting into the IT at the main "U" in the 'cities, planning on a EE.

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2008,14:52   

Quote (jeffox @ Dec. 21 2008,14:25)
Lou wrote:

   
Quote
:) No, I got a B in precalc. I had some struggles mid-semester and couldn't quite recover my A.

A in Spanish though (100 average and 100 on the final), A in English, and don't know yet but think I'm borderline A/B in Biology.


Nice grades!  And also congrats, and wishing you best of luck on your upcoming semesters.


Thanks, Jeff! Same to you.

 
Quote (jeffox @ Dec. 21 2008,14:25)
BTW, I was also surprised at UWEC taking most of my credits from UMM* from back in the latter 1980s.  Accredation means something, I guess.  :)  They save me about a year-and-a-half of work.  Like you, I didn't think that they'd apply, so it's nice that they did!


Dude, that totally rocks.

 
Quote (jeffox @ Dec. 21 2008,14:25)
*Believe it or not, TARDavison is actually correct when he's written that UMM was an old cattle school.  Of course, that was about 100 years ago.  But don't spoil the old fart's fun, eh?   :)   :p

I, myself, got laughs from my classmates when I called it, "little school on the prairie."   I was there for a pre-engineering degree, in anticipation of getting into the IT at the main "U" in the 'cities, planning on a EE.


Heh, then he probably remembers that.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Marion Delgado



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2008,16:01   

In your PASS program, I hope you remember to teach the controversy, Lou. Don't just teach intelligent design, teach the Davisonian counter-theory.

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2008,19:07   

Quote (Marion Delgado @ Dec. 21 2008,17:01)
In your PASS program, I hope you remember to teach the controversy, Lou. Don't just teach intelligent design, teach the Davisonian counter-theory.

I got that one down pat:

Goddidit. Then he died.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 22 2008,13:30   



My notes and thoughts from Biology 111, for Wednesday, September 24, 2008. The entire series can be found here.

Forgive the delay in this, the next installment of the series. At about this point in the semester, the workload and involvement in school just took off, and I needed to devote as much time as possible to homework and studying.

When last we left off, we had just begun a quick tour of the eukaryotic cell and its structures. We'd gone over the Nucleus and the Ribosomes, and some of the membrane-bound organelles like the Endoplasmic Reticulum (or ER), the Golgi Apparatus (or GA), and the Lysosomes.

We'll pick it up here with number 7, the Mitochondria (another membrane-bound organelle), and we'll go into more depth when we get to Chapter 9.

The mitochondria are sites of aerobic respiration. Recall that C:H bonds have a high potential energy because of the maximum distance of electrons from the nuclei of the Carbon and Hydrogen atoms. In other words, the electrons they share equally are midway between the C and the H.

So to get energy, a eukaryote (like a human, for instance) eats sugar and breathes air. In the air, there is Oxygen. What aerobic respiration does is take the energy out of the C:H bonds in the sugar by combining it with oxygen. The chemical reaction goes like this:

C6H12O6 + 6O2 ---> 6CO2 + 6H2O

What does that mean? Well, to each molecule of hexose (a sugar with 6 Carbons), six Oxygen atoms are added. Now, all those atoms have to go somewhere, they don't just disappear. By rearranging the atoms into six Carbon Dioxide molecules and six water molecules (both polar molecules, meaning the electrons are closer to one atom than the other), the mitochondria lower the potential energy of the molecules. But that energy also has to go somewhere, it also doesn't just disappear. (First Law of Thermodynamics, remember?) Where does it go? Well, the body uses it to do stuff, like make your muscles contract!

In fact, most of the energy our bodies use comes from this very reaction. The mitochondria are the body's power plant. This is pretty cool, especially since the mitochondria is just an infection, really.

What?

Well, not exactly, but yeah. It turns out that way back in the day, millions of years ago, probably before Ronald Reagan was born even, what is now your body's power plant was a bacterium. Remember when we discussed some of the differences between prokaryotic cells and eukaryotic cells? Let's put that table back up, since it's been a while.

The Two Basic Cell Types

Prokaryotic                                     Eukaryotic

circular*          Chromosomes            linear*
usually 1                                         many
in cytoplasm                                    in nucleus

70s**               Ribosomes               80s**</td>


not present     Membrane Bound        present</td>
                      Organelles

1 - 10 µm            Size                    10 - 100 µm

*circular or linear: meaning the ends of the chromosome either connect or don't connect - as they are tangled up in a little ball, it is important to remember that the overall shape is not a circle or straight line

**70s and 80s are just a reference to size, with 80s being somewhat bigger than 70s



It turns out that the mitochondria has one circular chromosome, no nucleus so the chromosome is in the matrix (cytoplasm), has its own 70s ribosomes, and is the size of a prokaryote. The mitochondria probably evolved from what is known as an alpha proteobacteria by a process known as endocytosis ('endo = inside; cytosis = more than the usual number of cells'). Endocytosis occurs when a cell literally wraps itself around another cell (in this case, the proteobacterium) and sort of swallows it up. Here, the proteobacterium survived the process, and multiplied. The eukaryotic cell benefited from the power being generated by the proteobacterium, and the proteobacterium benefited from the physical protection of the eukaryotic cell. In anthropomorphic terms, the cell said, "Dude! Make me some juice and I won't let the other cells eat you, lol!"

Over the course of time, the proteobacteria gave up some of its independence, and the eukaryotic cell stopped generating its own power. They became interdependent. This relationship is termed endosymbiotic, meaning a relationship where one partner is inside the other and both partners benefit from the relationship.

This is a very cool illustration of how evolution can do the neatest things with what's around it.

Also, the mitochondria divide (by binary fission, a prokaryote technique) separately from the rest of the cell. This is yet further support for the evolution of the mitochondria from a proteobacterium. There can be little doubt that the mitochondria was at one time a prokaryote.

This leads us to number 8, Chloroplasts.

Chloroplasts are very similar to mitochondria, but are found only in plants and algae. Since plants and algae also have mitochondria, it would seem that the proteobacterial infection that led to the evolution of the mitochondria must have occurred so long ago that it was before animals and plants went their separate ways on the evolutionary bush. Not so with chloroplasts. Since we see them in plants and algae, but not other eukaryotes, we can infer that chloroplasts evolved after plants and algae split from other eukaryotes, but before they split from each other.

Now here's the really cool thing: chloroplasts work exactly the opposite from mitochondria. Instead of turning sugar and oxygen into carbon dioxide and water, chloroplasts take carbon dioxide and water, add a little energy from sunlight, and turn them into oxygen and sugar. This is how plants and algae take raw materials from the environment and store that sunlight as energy in the form of C:H bonds until they need it. When they need energy, the mitochondria reverse the chemical reaction, and voila!

So we eat plants. The plants have sunlight stored in the sugar. We eat the sugar and do exactly what the plants do with it with the exact same process! That is just totally cool.

Now, the chloroplast also has 70s ribosomes and divide independently of the cell, etc etc. They have a little bit different structure than the mitochondria though, including a thylakoid membrane (which is functionally equivalent to the matrix of the mitochondria) and stroma (which is functionally equivalent to the inner membrane space). It seems the chloroplast descended from a different bacterium, called a cyanobacterium, and also became part of the cells through endosymbiosis.

Wow. Nifty, nifty, nifty.

Ok, moving on to number 8.

8. The Cytoskeleton

The cytoskeleton is not bound by a membrane. It is a network of protein fibers that extend from the nuclear envelope to the plasma membrane. It keeps the organelles in place inside the cell, and organizes internal structures. It's very important for the ER and the GA, for instance. It also helps to support the cell and maintain the shape of the cell, as the name implies.

It also serves as a sort of train track for the transport vesicles, and the Harvard/XVIVO animation I mentioned earlier has some very good shots of transport vesicles traveling along the fibers. You should go watch Inner Life of the Cell again. (Actually, you should do that again anyway, just because it's so freaking cool.)

The cytoskeleton is made up of three types of fibers:

a) microtubules, which are basically little hollow straws

b) microfilaments, which are braided cables

c) intermediate filaments, which are big, fat cables

And this brings us to

9. Cilia and Flagella

Microtubules can sort of stick out of the cell (but not break the cell membrane which still surrounds them). They can form a long tail (a flagellum), or a bunch of them can stick out a shorter distance (cilia). A cross section of a flagellum or a cilium is exactly the same. Eight pairs of microtubules encircles one pair of microtubules. Because microtubules can contract or extend, they can create motion for the cell. When a cell uses a flagellum for locomotion, the flagellum moves like a swimming snake to produce directional motion. When a cell uses cilia, it's more like the oars of a boat.

Now, most eukaryotic cells have neither flagella nor cilia. Out of about 200 kinds of cells in the human body, only the sperm have a flagellum. The cilia appear in the reproductive tract of females. Instead of sticking out of an egg cell and swimming the egg along, however, the cilia are actually in the tract itself, and sort of "pass" the egg along. They are also found in the upper respiratory tract.

The final stop on our quick tour of the cell before we go into more depth is

10. The Cell Wall

Ok, the main thing here is not to confuse this with the plasma membrane. The cell wall is a distinct cell feature not found in all eukaryotes. It resides outside the plasma membrane in plants, algae, and fungi, but not in animals. It is somewhat rigid, unlike the plasma membrane. Mostly it helps to support and protect the cell. It is composed primarily of polysaccharides. In plants and algae, it's made of cellulose, and in fungi it's made of chitin.

In the next lecture, we pick up with the structure and function of the cell membrane.

 
Quote
From whence came the art:

The first image is of our textbook, Biology, Eighth Edition, by Campbell &amp; Reese et al.

Other images by me and are licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution- NonCommercial- Share Alike 3.0 License.


Edited by Lou FCD on Dec. 22 2008,14:33

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Henry J



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 22 2008,15:58   

Quote
10. The Cell Wall

Sounds like the cell walls evolved once (using cellulose) for plants & algae, and separately (using chiton) for fungi? So fungi walls

aren't homologous with plant walls. And us animals have to do without walls around our cells.

Quote
This is pretty cool, especially since the mitochondria is just an infection, really.

Either that or a bit of food that didn't get properly digested. :p

But all that aside, when will we get to the chapter on irreducible complexity? :p  :)

Henry

  
Texas Teach



Posts: 2084
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 22 2008,16:18   

Quote (Henry J @ Dec. 22 2008,15:58)
Quote
10. The Cell Wall

Sounds like the cell walls evolved once (using cellulose) for plants & algae, and separately (using chiton) for fungi? So fungi walls

aren't homologous with plant walls. And us animals have to do without walls around our cells.

Quote
This is pretty cool, especially since the mitochondria is just an infection, really.

Either that or a bit of food that didn't get properly digested. :p

But all that aside, when will we get to the chapter on irreducible complexity? :p  :)

Henry

You can't have just a chapter on IC.  Only an entire book on the subject is stable.

--------------
"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
Henry J



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 22 2008,17:32   

An entire book on IC? That's an ICky thought.

  
sledgehammer



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 22 2008,22:55   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Dec. 20 2008,19:38)
   
Quote (carlsonjok @ Dec. 20 2008,19:05)
   
Quote (Lou FCD @ Dec. 20 2008,15:40)
A in Spanish though (100 average and 100 on the final), A in English,

Have you decided which language you are going to learn?

Yes. Portugese, because it's a mixture of French and Spanish. I took French in high school, so when I'm done with Spanish, all I have to do is mix the words together, right?


right?

(Where's AFDaveyDoodles when you need him?????

Cien por ciento es muy belo, hombre.

Mixing Spanish and Portuguese might not be such a good idea.  I learned Spanish growing up in Venezuela, so when I moved to Brazil, I spoke "Espangues" for the longest time, gradually shifting to "Portanhol". It took 12 years to finally master Brazilian Portuguese.

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The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time. The terror of their tyranny is alleviated by their lack of consistency. -A. Einstein  (H/T, JAD)
If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. ?Think about that. -K. Hovind

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 22 2008,23:19   

Quote (sledgehammer @ Dec. 22 2008,23:55)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Dec. 20 2008,19:38)
   
Quote (carlsonjok @ Dec. 20 2008,19:05)
     
Quote (Lou FCD @ Dec. 20 2008,15:40)
A in Spanish though (100 average and 100 on the final), A in English,

Have you decided which language you are going to learn?

Yes. Portugese, because it's a mixture of French and Spanish. I took French in high school, so when I'm done with Spanish, all I have to do is mix the words together, right?


right?

(Where's AFDaveyDoodles when you need him?????

Cien por ciento es muy belo, hombre.

Mixing Spanish and Portuguese might not be such a good idea.  I learned Spanish growing up in Venezuela, so when I moved to Brazil, I spoke "Espangues" for the longest time, gradually shifting to "Portanhol". It took 12 years to finally master Brazilian Portuguese.

Nah, I was making a callback joke. We had this creobot here for a while named AFDave who insisted, argued with the resident linguists even, that Portuguese was a mixture of French and Spanish.

He was ... stubbornly ignorant, to put it mildly.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 23 2008,16:23   

I got my report card in the mail today.



Click to embiggen

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 23 2008,16:34   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Dec. 23 2008,16:23)
I got my report card in the mail today.



Click to embiggen

Just out of curiousity, what exactly do you do in an algebra lab?  It isn't like you can put X in a test tube or anything.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 23 2008,16:50   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Dec. 23 2008,17:34)
Just out of curiousity, what exactly do you do in an algebra lab?  It isn't like you can put X in a test tube or anything.

It was supposed to be a time to work problems with the instructor right at hand.

It turned out to be mostly a waste of time, in my opinion. What would happen is that the instructor would hand us a "lab", a worksheet three or four pages long with 20 or 30 problems on it. Then she would put the final answers up on the overhead, and we would copy them onto the worksheet. Then we'd take it home and do it for homework, with the answers to guide us.

It was sometimes helpful in the sense that we got instant feedback on completing the problem, by seeing if we got the right answer.

On the other hand, I never got why she just didn't put the answers on there before printing the thing out, so that we could spend the lab time doing the problems with her there to answer questions and provide assistance, which was the intended purpose of the lab.

As it was, it was a wasted 60 minutes, (30 minutes twice a week), and a doubling of our homework.

Edited to correct the schedule.

Edited by Lou FCD on Dec. 23 2008,17:56

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Marion Delgado



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Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 23 2008,19:40   

I couldn't help but notice you suck at Bible study and penmanship!

Not so smart now, are you, smart guy?

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 05 2009,20:54   

Quote (Marion Delgado @ Dec. 23 2008,20:40)
I couldn't help but notice you suck at Bible study and penmanship!

Not so smart now, are you, smart guy?

lol

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 05 2009,20:58   

So I filled out my W4s and other employment papers today, after which they sent us to the Security office for our new ID cards.

It's a lovely ID card which looks exactly like my student ID only with "Staff" where the other one says "Student", and I got my staff parking sticker.

I asked about the stick for beating the students, but the bastards told me I have to have tenure before I get that, and I'm not allowed to Expel anyone until I have tenure, either.

I'm thinking I should organize a strike.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
jeffox



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 05 2009,21:38   

Ya ya, give 'em hell, Lou!   :)

  
Henry J



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 05 2009,21:40   

Quote
I'm thinking I should organize a strike.


But, the problem with that is that you'd need that stick before being able to strike something with it. So that plan won't work. ;)

Henry

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 05 2009,21:52   

Quote (Henry J @ Jan. 05 2009,22:40)
Quote
I'm thinking I should organize a strike.


But, the problem with that is that you'd need that stick before being able to strike something with it. So that plan won't work. ;)

Henry

Damn you and your logic!

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Henry J



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 06 2009,11:44   

:O

  
Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 06 2009,14:59   

A bit thunderstruck...

I'm giving my first introduction of the PASS program to 111 students this morning, and am writing my contact info on the board. I mention something like, "The only real difference between me and all of you is that I've already taken this course for a grade, and I did well...", when Doc interrupts me.

"I want to say something here," he begins. "Last semester, we had three sections of Biology 111, adding up to about 60 students. There was one A, and the man who got it is standing at the board."

What the hell do you even say to that? Totally threw my presentation. Of course I knew I got an A because it was on my report card, but I had no clue I got the only A.

I'm not sure if I feel more shameless pride about it or distress for the other students or sadness about the state of our high school science programs, but there was no way in hell I could keep it to myself.

In any event, I got a pretty enthusiastic response in the 8:00 section, but less so in the 1:30 section. Might be an after lunch thing, or maybe just a more prepared (and thus confident) bunch because almost all the 1:30 students are Science majors. Doc says he picked up on it too, without even having seen the interest surveys. It'll be interesting to see how those two sections compare over the course of the semester.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
khan



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Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 06 2009,15:57   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Jan. 06 2009,15:59)
A bit thunderstruck...

I'm giving my first introduction of the PASS program to 111 students this morning, and am writing my contact info on the board. I mention something like, "The only real difference between me and all of you is that I've already taken this course for a grade, and I did well...", when Doc interrupts me.

"I want to say something here," he begins. "Last semester, we had three sections of Biology 111, adding up to about 60 students. There was one A, and the man who got it is standing at the board."

What the hell do you even say to that? Totally threw my presentation. Of course I knew I got an A because it was on my report card, but I had no clue I got the only A.

I'm not sure if I feel more shameless pride about it or distress for the other students or sadness about the state of our high school science programs, but there was no way in hell I could keep it to myself.

In any event, I got a pretty enthusiastic response in the 8:00 section, but less so in the 1:30 section. Might be an after lunch thing, or maybe just a more prepared (and thus confident) bunch because almost all the 1:30 students are Science majors. Doc says he picked up on it too, without even having seen the interest surveys. It'll be interesting to see how those two sections compare over the course of the semester.

Case closed: you've earned your stick.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 11 2009,08:38   

Thank you Khan. I've really been looking forward to the stick. I'm going carve my initials in it.

Bio 112 is going to be a big adjustment. The teaching style of my new instructor (Doc II) is radically different. Rather than passing out information, Doc II is more... conversational. Was it Aristotle that did the 'walk and talk' thing with his students? Apart from actually walking around campus during class, this is more like my new instructor's technique.

I'm enjoying it thoroughly, in a completely different way than Doc I's class, but I'm concerned I'm not taking effective notes. So far it's been introductory review stuff for the most part, but I'm nervous anyway.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Marion Delgado



Posts: 89
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 11 2009,15:09   

Point out that the theory of grading is just that - a theory!

  
Rrr



Posts: 146
Joined: Nov. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 13 2009,13:18   

Quote (Marion Delgado @ Jan. 11 2009,15:09)
Point out that the theory of grading is just that - a theory!

Cheeze thanks you!

Or maybe my speelings' off? Appoplexies if i hert yer pheelings.
;)

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 13 2009,14:55   

Quote (Marion Delgado @ Jan. 11 2009,16:09)
Point out that the theory of grading is just that - a theory!

lol

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 13 2009,15:10   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Jan. 06 2009,12:59)
A bit thunderstruck...

I'm giving my first introduction of the PASS program to 111 students this morning, and am writing my contact info on the board. I mention something like, "The only real difference between me and all of you is that I've already taken this course for a grade, and I did well...", when Doc interrupts me.

"I want to say something here," he begins. "Last semester, we had three sections of Biology 111, adding up to about 60 students. There was one A, and the man who got it is standing at the board."

HA HA THIS IS LOU:



Everybody! Let's GET HIM!



--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
jeffox



Posts: 671
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 26 2009,23:04   

I finally got started with the spring semester here.  I set out for the "U" at oh-dark-and-cold-hundred (6:00 a.m.) with a 45 min. walk in -6 F. weather.  :O  The rest of the day went well, though.

Already had one test in Sed/Strat.  Nobody was ready for that, for sure.  Even me.

So far the only course that has me scared is Beginning German.  The first day seemed, to me, to be a lot like learning how to swim by being thrown into a lake.  Swim or die, I think you get the picture.  

Sorry if this is outside of the thread, Lou; but you and I are both in the same boat, it's just a lot colder here.  :)  And I do hope that it's going well for you this semester, too.  I'm sure we'll both do well, bud!

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2009,05:38   

Quote (jeffox @ Jan. 26 2009,23:04)
Sorry if this is outside of the thread, Lou; but you and I are both in the same boat, it's just a lot colder here.  :)  

Oh, is your name Shackleton, too?



--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2009,15:03   

You're good, Jeff. I've just been swamped. The semester is going well and I'm enjoying the hell out of sitting in those Bio 111 classes.

I watch the other students as much as I watch Doc. The hardest thing is not blurting out answers to the questions he poses in class.

He wants to teach and get them to think about Biology. I want to talk about Biology and learn stuff they're not ready for.

He wins. I pout and sit on my hands.

I'm going to need a roll of duct tape soon though, so I can tape my mouth shut.

:)

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2009,15:17   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Jan. 27 2009,14:03)
I'm going to need a roll of duct tape soon though, so I can tape my mouth shut.

:)


  
jeffox



Posts: 671
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2009,16:47   

Actually, CarlsonJOK, it's more like this:



:)

  
jeffox



Posts: 671
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2009,16:57   

Lou, you wrote:

Quote
I watch the other students as much as I watch Doc. The hardest thing is not blurting out answers to the questions he poses in class.


I kinda know what you mean.  Myself, I'm noticing a big difference between myself and the other students, age-wise.  F'rinstance, I had to explain in my Beginning German class why I didn't like the Scorpions, and my answer amounted to, well, I grew up listening to REAL rock bands.  A few of their eyes got big at that one.  I should be more diplomatic, I guess.  :)

The instructor just got back from a visit to Riga, Latvia; so I'll have to be careful about my cold-warrior-speak.  That, or mentioning things like the GDR.  :O

  
Marion Delgado



Posts: 89
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2009,20:17   

"Give em hell!"

No, he just tells them the truth and they think it's hell!

  
Marion Delgado



Posts: 89
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 03 2009,14:36   

Occasionally I link sincere evolution-haters to this thread, Lou, if I think they might have moderately open minds.

I recommend they start from the beginning and see what they think afterwards.

I think the big issues are intractable but at least we may all move towards, e.g., the understanding of a Michael Behe, which is not so far off the beam that it would actually retard our ability to educate people in biology.

This may seem a poor example/comparison, but I've decided for myself that I think string theory is a nonproductive research program in particle physics. That given, at least some of the string theorists reject the dependence on the landscape and the anthropic principle. I still think the residual is not productive, but the current landscape, etc., self-described Rube Goldberg system, which lacks predictiveness and testability, is actively retarding progress in theoretical physics.

The idea of evolution most evolution-haters have is so far from correct that they're shadowboxing with stuff that was barely the case 150 years ago, IMO.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 03 2009,14:46   

I'm flattered, Marion. I hope I'm doing a decent job.

*sigh*

I guess that means I should put down the paint roller and finish this up then.

:)

(I'm waiting on the latest coat of paint on my bedroom walls to dry anyway...)

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 03 2009,15:26   

Does that make for good watching?

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 03 2009,15:57   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Feb. 03 2009,16:26)
Does that make for good watching?

It's better than watching the drywall mud dry, for sure. That REALLY sucked.







That's an Old Burgundy base coat of flat latex, with a top coat of sponged on Merlot semigloss latex.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Rrr



Posts: 146
Joined: Nov. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 09 2009,17:04   

Hey, no wonder you look a bit worn out in teh pix !^)
Quote
flat latex, ... sponged on Merlot

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 09 2009,17:15   

Quote (Rrr @ Feb. 09 2009,18:04)
Hey, no wonder you look a bit worn out in teh pix !^)
 
Quote
flat latex, ... sponged on Merlot

I slept in my own bed last night for the first time in a while. I hope I'm looking better now, I'm certainly feeling better.

I definitely have the world's most uncomfortable couch.

Maybe that will help me get more done on blogging my notes now.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Rrr



Posts: 146
Joined: Nov. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 09 2009,17:40   

Sweet dreams, man.
And rosy red...

  
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 09 2009,17:42   

Cracklin' rosie, make me a smile
Girl if it lasts for an hour, thats al right
We got all night
To set the world right
Find us a dream that don't ask no questions, yeah

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 10 2009,12:31   

Got my first 112 exam back this morning.

I got a 90. One student got an A, and two of us got a B.

I'm a bit out of sorts, but the exam was unlike any I'd ever taken. I'll take it and learn from it.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2009,07:58   

I have an office.

I feel special.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2009,08:42   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 14 2009,13:58)
I have an office.

I feel special.

Congrats! When one finally gets an office one knows one has arrived.

When one gets an office with a WINDOW, one has clearly won the Nobel prize.

Your (spectacular) progress is being followed with interest, brother.

;-)

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
silverspoon



Posts: 123
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2009,09:06   

Just let us know if you lose your office space & keys. We’ll get Kevin Miller and Ben Stein right on it.

--------------
Grand Poobah of the nuclear mafia

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2009,10:29   

I Expelled myself and got an entire house!

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2009,10:42   

Quote (Louis @ Feb. 14 2009,09:42)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 14 2009,13:58)
I have an office.

I feel special.

Congrats! When one finally gets an office one knows one has arrived.

When one gets an office with a WINDOW, one has clearly won the Nobel prize.

Your (spectacular) progress is being followed with interest, brother.

;-)

Louis

Even Doc doesn't have a window. None of the offices in our building do.

The Chair, however, is in the new Math and Science building. She must have won about 10 Great Big Nobels.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2009,10:42   

Quote (silverspoon @ Feb. 14 2009,10:06)
Just let us know if you lose your office space & keys. We’ll get Kevin Miller and Ben Stein right on it.

I'm sure they'll be all over that in a heartbeat.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2009,10:43   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Feb. 14 2009,11:29)
I Expelled myself and got an entire house!

The call has gone out. Miller and Stein should be calling any moment now.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 18 2009,21:24   

Monster Tales from the 112 Lab, in which I say bad words and nearly crap my pants.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2009,07:07   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 18 2009,21:24)
Monster Tales from the 112 Lab, in which I say bad words and nearly crap my pants.

Quote
I was swapping between moving the table and making quick, partial sketches of what I saw. Everything was going along quietly when all of a sudden […] tried to jump off the slide and eat my face. I swear it did.

I had that happen in high school bio lab, with water from a creek behind my house. It just ain't right for stuff under a microscope to move fast.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2009,11:52   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Feb. 19 2009,08:07)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 18 2009,21:24)
Monster Tales from the 112 Lab, in which I say bad words and nearly crap my pants.

Quote
I was swapping between moving the table and making quick, partial sketches of what I saw. Everything was going along quietly when all of a sudden […] tried to jump off the slide and eat my face. I swear it did.

I had that happen in high school bio lab, with water from a creek behind my house. It just ain't right for stuff under a microscope to move fast.

or be way bigger than everything else when it jumps into your field of view.

or look like scary Matrix shit.

or try to eat your face.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2009,08:04   

I'm headed for the Morehead Planetarium in Raleigh today with the Science Club. Because of a decision handed down from on high (at the state level) about budget stuff, we'll be taking personal vehicles.

It's a 2 1/2 hour drive each way, in a car with another student, Doc, and The Chair.

Should be a cool and interesting journey.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 11 2009,09:26   

Must brag:

Big 112 exam yesterday, covering protists, fungi, and the opening volley of animals. That's a lot of ground to cover.

Doc II gives essay exams that are an absolute bear. 6 questions, he takes your best 5 answers. In an hour and half, it's a lot. The questions usually start, "Completely describe..." and involve life cycles, reproduction, x-otrophy, environment, impact, importance to humans, etc.

It's a ton of information, and the real trick is not what to write, but rather what can be left out in order to finish an exam in the allotted time but still answer the question.

I studied my ass off for this one, and was utterly exhausted at the end. Total. Brain. Shutdown. afterwards, and I went home and flopped for the rest of the day.

Doc II just now poked his head in my office to tell me I got a 98.

I went from grumpy bastard to happy fool in about 2.5 milliseconds.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 11 2009,10:32   

So it's official: You're a smart ass.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
hereoisreal



Posts: 745
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 11 2009,10:39   

Quote (khan @ Mar. 11 2009,10:32)
So it's official: You're a smart ass.

No, a smart ass is one that can sit on an ice cream
cone and tell you what flavor it is.
Congrats Lou.

Zero

--------------
360  miracles and more at:
http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com

Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5)

It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

   
Rrr



Posts: 146
Joined: Nov. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 11 2009,16:28   

So finally, all that training at UD et al pays off, eh? You seem to have evolved an ability to separate precious few gems from a big heap of chaff, if I may mix my semaphores a little here.

Congratulations!

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 11 2009,16:41   

Thanks, I'm still doing my happy dance.

(...which kind of made it a challenge to dissect that nematode today in lab...)

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 11 2009,16:45   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Mar. 11 2009,16:41)
Thanks, I'm still doing my happy dance.

(...which kind of made it a challenge to dissect that nematode today in lab...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlYCVpPo1WQ

and that sweater scores .92 Dembskis, Lou.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 10 2009,08:32   

The Chair caught up to me in the hall on Wednesday as we were heading out for a bird watching field trip for 112 Lab.

She needed my cell number so that the UNCW folks could reach me. Turns out I've been nominated for one of two summer internships from Coastal down at Dub. I have to do an interview.

I guess I had better figure out what field interests me, since they try to match the intern with someone working in a field that interests them.

I caught up with one of the first students from Coastal to get this internship a few years ago, and asked about what all it entailed. I expected to be just washing test tubes and the like, but she told me that they put her right in with the grad students doing real sciency stuff (including washing test tubes, but also learning what the grad students were doing).

I'm pretty excited.

Also, my wife thinks it's odd for me to always be talking to a chair. I considered not explaining, just for fun.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 10 2009,08:59   

Quote
"I am," I said
To no one there
An no one heard at all
Not even the chair


--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 10 2009,09:10   

Quote (Lou FCD @ April 10 2009,08:32)
I guess I had better figure out what field interests me, since they try to match the intern with someone working in a field that interests them.

<Slimey Sal Cordova>

Joan Roughgarden?

</Slimey Sal Cordova>
Quote

Also, my wife thinks it's odd for me to always be talking to a chair. I considered not explaining, just for fun.




Also: congratulations.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 10 2009,09:27   

Congratualtions from me too... but be careful out there!


The Chair

Winner of The 2009 Fangoria Chainsaw Awards!

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
bfish



Posts: 267
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 10 2009,17:09   

Quote (Lou FCD @ April 10 2009,06:32)
I caught up with one of the first students from Coastal to get this internship a few years ago, and asked about what all it entailed. I expected to be just washing test tubes and the like, but she told me that they put her right in with the grad students doing real sciency stuff (including washing test tubes, but also learning what the grad students were doing).

It's funny, I was just talking about that with a coworker yesterday. We were trying to decide if we should take an intern this summer or not. We have some boring work that needs to be done, and we both felt guilty at the idea of foisting it off on some poor intern. Which is maybe a strange attitude, because we do boring things all the time.
I don't know what the intern program is like at UNCW, but it's probably similar to the one where I work. I've had several interns over the last few summers - high school students, undergrads, and teachers. It's hard to get a lot out of your interns, since our program is so short (6-8 weeks), and you have to train them before they can be of much help. Still, as much as possible, we give them a few interesting tasks. A little bit of shit work, too, but we all do that as part of our jobs anyway.
   We use the analogy of a cooking show. There is almost never time to do a full experiment from beginning to end, so we have them do one part of the greater experiment, and then, hey, look in the oven, here are some things that are ready for the next part of the experiment! I was very pleased last summer that we worked it out such that my high school interns were able to generate actual data and present it at the talk they had to give. They were collecting data the day before the talk, so it was a tight fit!
   Anyway, good luck. Hope you get in.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 13 2009,07:13   

10Q

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 27 2009,20:38   

I got the word today that UNCW will not be hiring any interns this summer due to the economy.

Summer registration was last week, and I didn't register because I knew I'd be tied up. I reallocated the tuition funds to another project to boot.

And just to add insult to injury, I had planned for using the internship money to fund the fall semester.

Fuck.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: April 27 2009,22:06   

Quote (Lou FCD @ April 13 2009,07:13)
10Q

Is that anything like Q10 calculations in physiology?

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
csadams



Posts: 124
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 27 2009,23:00   

Quote (Lou FCD @ April 27 2009,20:38)
I got the word today that UNCW will not be hiring any interns this summer due to the economy.

Summer registration was last week, and I didn't register because I knew I'd be tied up. I reallocated the tuition funds to another project to boot.

And just to add insult to injury, I had planned for using the internship money to fund the fall semester.

Fuck.

If it helps, I know of a workshop or three which would pay a stipend and tuition over the summer.  The good news?  - they're in Kansas.  The bad? - they're in Kansas.

Our district has axed summer school.  (Your second grader needs extra help in reading?  Too bad.)  A nearby district's last day of school is this Friday - three weeks early because they're out of money.  Two other nearby districts are RIFing.  In another district, the science teacher told me this weekend that the superintendent quit rather than RIF anyone else.

This was such a great opportunity for you, Lou, and I'm sorry it's fallen victim to this great mess we call the economy.  Hang in there!   :(

--------------
Stand Up For REAL Science!

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 28 2009,06:16   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ April 27 2009,23:06)
Quote (Lou FCD @ April 13 2009,07:13)
10Q

Is that anything like Q10 calculations in physiology?

I think that's Bio 160, Wesley. I'm not responsible for that information yet. :)

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 28 2009,06:20   

Quote (csadams @ April 28 2009,00:00)
Quote (Lou FCD @ April 27 2009,20:38)
I got the word today that UNCW will not be hiring any interns this summer due to the economy.

Summer registration was last week, and I didn't register because I knew I'd be tied up. I reallocated the tuition funds to another project to boot.

And just to add insult to injury, I had planned for using the internship money to fund the fall semester.

Fuck.

If it helps, I know of a workshop or three which would pay a stipend and tuition over the summer.  The good news?  - they're in Kansas.  The bad? - they're in Kansas.

Our district has axed summer school.  (Your second grader needs extra help in reading?  Too bad.)  A nearby district's last day of school is this Friday - three weeks early because they're out of money.  Two other nearby districts are RIFing.  In another district, the science teacher told me this weekend that the superintendent quit rather than RIF anyone else.

This was such a great opportunity for you, Lou, and I'm sorry it's fallen victim to this great mess we call the economy.  Hang in there!   :(

Yeah, things are just sucking all over.

It might be interesting to visit Kansas for the summer, but given that my wife put her foot down (on my neck) about me going to sea as one of the possible UNCW projects (sample collections), it's probably out of the question.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 28 2009,09:27   

Quote (Lou FCD @ April 28 2009,06:20)
Quote (csadams @ April 28 2009,00:00)
Quote (Lou FCD @ April 27 2009,20:38)
I got the word today that UNCW will not be hiring any interns this summer due to the economy.

Summer registration was last week, and I didn't register because I knew I'd be tied up. I reallocated the tuition funds to another project to boot.

And just to add insult to injury, I had planned for using the internship money to fund the fall semester.

Fuck.

If it helps, I know of a workshop or three which would pay a stipend and tuition over the summer.  The good news?  - they're in Kansas.  The bad? - they're in Kansas.

Our district has axed summer school.  (Your second grader needs extra help in reading?  Too bad.)  A nearby district's last day of school is this Friday - three weeks early because they're out of money.  Two other nearby districts are RIFing.  In another district, the science teacher told me this weekend that the superintendent quit rather than RIF anyone else.

This was such a great opportunity for you, Lou, and I'm sorry it's fallen victim to this great mess we call the economy.  Hang in there!   :(

Yeah, things are just sucking all over.

It might be interesting to visit Kansas for the summer, but given that my wife put her foot down (on my neck) about me going to sea as one of the possible UNCW projects (sample collections), it's probably out of the question.

It could be worse - she could be begging you to go to sea...and asking for rich's email.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 28 2009,16:32   

Ah, but Kansas is about as far from the sea as one can get! ;)

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 28 2009,16:48   

Quote (Lou FCD @ April 28 2009,06:20)
Quote (csadams @ April 28 2009,00:00)
Quote (Lou FCD @ April 27 2009,20:38)
I got the word today that UNCW will not be hiring any interns this summer due to the economy.

Summer registration was last week, and I didn't register because I knew I'd be tied up. I reallocated the tuition funds to another project to boot.

And just to add insult to injury, I had planned for using the internship money to fund the fall semester.

Fuck.

If it helps, I know of a workshop or three which would pay a stipend and tuition over the summer.  The good news?  - they're in Kansas.  The bad? - they're in Kansas.

Our district has axed summer school.  (Your second grader needs extra help in reading?  Too bad.)  A nearby district's last day of school is this Friday - three weeks early because they're out of money.  Two other nearby districts are RIFing.  In another district, the science teacher told me this weekend that the superintendent quit rather than RIF anyone else.

This was such a great opportunity for you, Lou, and I'm sorry it's fallen victim to this great mess we call the economy.  Hang in there!   :(

Yeah, things are just sucking all over.

It might be interesting to visit Kansas for the summer, but given that my wife put her foot down (on my neck) about me going to sea as one of the possible UNCW projects (sample collections), it's probably out of the question.

i went on one of those research cruises with those UNCW guys one time.  i had a ball but the head scientist was an ass.  i wanted to kill him by the time the cruise was over.  got lots of respect for those folks spending week after week on boats in the middle of the ocean, its a wonder that the sea isn't littered with bobbing corpses.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: April 28 2009,17:06   

After weeks at sea, everybody knows to use a sinker.

Ever read Ian Fleming's "The Hildebrand Rarity"?

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 28 2009,17:53   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ April 28 2009,18:06)
After weeks at sea, everybody knows to use a sinker.

Ever read Ian Fleming's "The Hildebrand Rarity"?

lol

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
csadams



Posts: 124
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 29 2009,06:40   

Quote (Henry J @ April 28 2009,16:32)
Ah, but Kansas is about as far from the sea as one can get! ;)

Well, yeah . . . now . . . gotta love the Cretaceous, though -



But won't Lou's future students see his um, obvious maturity, and think he was around at the time of the mosasaurs anyway?

FWIW, Lou, if those workshops exist in Kansas, hopefully there are some in your area.

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Stand Up For REAL Science!

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 07 2009,15:49   

The Chair rang me up today to tell me that Dub has decided to offer Coastal one intern slot, as a volunteer.

I got it, and I'm happy about it and all, and I really look forward to it, but...

well, you know. Money would have been nice too.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 07 2009,15:58   

Quote (Lou FCD @ May 07 2009,15:49)
The Chair rang me up today to tell me that Dub has decided to offer Coastal one intern slot, as a volunteer.

I got it, and I'm happy about it and all, and I really look forward to it, but...

well, you know. Money would have been nice too.

So, tell them what you need - maybe there are some discretionary funds hidden away somewhere.  Worth a try!

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 12 2009,15:44   

Thanks, J, I will. They're supposed to call me sometime in the near future.

Meanwhile, I was out and about after my 112 final today and bumped into my prof who was coming into a store as I was going out. He stopped me to let me know I'd gotten an A on the final exam.

I'm ready for summer break now.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
ERV



Posts: 329
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 12 2009,15:58   

Quote (Lou FCD @ May 12 2009,15:44)
Meanwhile, I was out and about after my 112 final today and bumped into my prof who was coming into a store as I was going out. He stopped me to let me know I'd gotten an A on the final exam.

*nod*

Working in TARD mines is good for your biology grades.

It strengthens the haunches.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 12 2009,16:21   

Quote (ERV @ May 12 2009,16:58)
Quote (Lou FCD @ May 12 2009,15:44)
Meanwhile, I was out and about after my 112 final today and bumped into my prof who was coming into a store as I was going out. He stopped me to let me know I'd gotten an A on the final exam.

*nod*

Working in TARD mines is good for your biology grades.

It strengthens the haunches.

Not good for the blood pressure though, I suspect. :)

I'm looking forward to botany and zoology and ecology, where I can spend a semester each on one subject. Bio 112 is like this huge whirlwind, covering so much ground it makes my head swim.

The final wasn't even cumulative, and it covered mosses, ferns, gymnosperms, angiosperms, ecology, and Tragedy of the Commons.

I need some alcohol tonight to unwind, for sure. Who's buying?

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 12 2009,16:29   

Quote (Lou FCD @ May 12 2009,17:21)
Quote (ERV @ May 12 2009,16:58)
Quote (Lou FCD @ May 12 2009,15:44)
Meanwhile, I was out and about after my 112 final today and bumped into my prof who was coming into a store as I was going out. He stopped me to let me know I'd gotten an A on the final exam.

*nod*

Working in TARD mines is good for your biology grades.

It strengthens the haunches.

Not good for the blood pressure though, I suspect. :)

I'm looking forward to botany and zoology and ecology, where I can spend a semester each on one subject. Bio 112 is like this huge whirlwind, covering so much ground it makes my head swim.

The final wasn't even cumulative, and it covered mosses, ferns, gymnosperms, angiosperms, ecology, and Tragedy of the Commons.

I need some alcohol tonight to unwind, for sure. Who's buying?

What do you want?

I recall liking peach brandy.

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 12 2009,17:42   

Quote (khan @ May 12 2009,17:29)
What do you want?

I recall liking peach brandy.

If it's free, it's me. :)

I think tonight it's just a few Yuengling Lagers. I'll do something more special this weekend, I think.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 12 2009,18:52   

lets see something more special...

eastern North Carolina...

yup that would be Natty Light, wouldnit?

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 12 2009,20:55   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ May 12 2009,19:52)
lets see something more special...

eastern North Carolina...

yup that would be Natty Light, wouldnit?

lol, plobly.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2009,13:11   

w00t! Just got a call from the English department. 8 Seconds has been chosen for the New River Anthology, to be published in August. Also, they want me to read it at a fall reading.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
KCdgw



Posts: 376
Joined: Sep. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2009,13:21   

Quote (Lou FCD @ May 15 2009,13:11)
w00t! Just got a call from the English department. 8 Seconds has been chosen for the New River Anthology, to be published in August. Also, they want me to read it at a fall reading.

That is an outstanding piece of writing.

KC

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Those who know the truth are not equal to those who love it-- Confucius

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2009,13:30   

Quote (KCdgw @ May 15 2009,14:21)
Quote (Lou FCD @ May 15 2009,13:11)
w00t! Just got a call from the English department. 8 Seconds has been chosen for the New River Anthology, to be published in August. Also, they want me to read it at a fall reading.

That is an outstanding piece of writing.

KC

Thank you.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2009,15:25   

Quote (Lou FCD @ May 15 2009,13:11)
w00t! Just got a call from the English department. 8 Seconds has been chosen for the New River Anthology, to be published in August. Also, they want me to read it at a fall reading.

Damn that's good!  

No wonder Davetard fell for you! :)  As a Mighty Morphin U S Marine, (Chessy-Poof Division) he recognized the special bond that exists between warriors, and was drawn to you like a moth to a flame.

Hoo Rah for your story.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2009,16:15   

Quote (Lou FCD @ May 15 2009,13:11)
w00t! Just got a call from the English department. 8 Seconds has been chosen for the New River Anthology, to be published in August. Also, they want me to read it at a fall reading.

HA HA THIS IS YOU



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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
ppb



Posts: 325
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2009,18:44   

Congratulations Lou.  That's a nice bit of writing.  I wish I could write like that, although I am happy not to have such a dramatic bit of personal experience to share with the world.  :)

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"[A scientific theory] describes Nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And it agrees fully with experiment. So I hope you can accept Nature as She is - absurd."
- Richard P. Feynman

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 15 2009,19:48   

Thanks all. That's one of my favorite pieces, so I'm glad y'all enjoyed it.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 15 2009,07:48   

So, internship obviously fell through in the end, but

SQUEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!

From the preface to my zoology textbook, I just opened:

Quote
Chapter 1 begins with a brief explanation of the scientific method - what science is (and what it is not) - and then moves to a discussion of evolutionary principles. Following a historical account of Charles Darwin's life and discoveries, we present the five major components of Darwin's evolutionary theory, and an assessment of its current scientific status. This approach reflects our understanding that Darwinism is not a single, simple statement easily confirmed or refuted. It also prepares the student to dismiss the arguments of creationists who misconstrue scientific challenges to Darwinism as contradictions to the validity of organic evolution. The chapter ends with discussion of micro- and macroevolution.


Methinks it will be an interesting semester.

Edited by Lou FCD on Aug. 15 2009,08:50

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
dvunkannon



Posts: 1377
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 15 2009,08:07   

Quote (Lou FCD @ May 15 2009,20:48)
Thanks all. That's one of my favorite pieces, so I'm glad y'all enjoyed it.

Left you a comment over there. Congratulations!

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I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter
I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2009,17:31   

Quote
It also prepares the student to dismiss the arguments of creationists who misconstrue scientific challenges to Darwinism as contradictions to the validity of organic evolution.

Now that's an area in which you probably have a big head start, due to precipitating here and at PT!

Henry

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2009,19:28   

Have to share:

Quote
We emphasize that the word "theory," when used by scientists, is not arbitrary speculation as is often implied by nonscientific usage. Creationists make this mistake when they call evolution "only a theory" to imply that it is little better than a random guess. In fact, evolutionary theory is supported by such massive evidence that most biologists consider repudiation of evolution a repudiation of reason. Nonetheless, evolution, like all other theories in science, cannot be proved correct by mathematical logic, but is testable, tentative, and falsifiable.


(my emphasis)

That's in Chapter 1, just after a whole section on the Principles of Science that talked a bit about McLean v. Arkansas and Kitzmiller v. Dover.

Oh, yeah, a quote from there:

Quote
Unfortunately, the religious position formerly called creation-science has reappeared in American politics with the name "intelligent design theory."


Ouch. (snicker)

Also, the text says that little Billy D is a poopy head who makes crappy farty videos.*

*Ok, the text doesn't really say that part. It does however mention that the eight school board members who supported the intelligent-design requirement in Dover were summarily given the toe of the boot.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2009,19:45   

Quote (Henry J @ Aug. 16 2009,18:31)
Quote
It also prepares the student to dismiss the arguments of creationists who misconstrue scientific challenges to Darwinism as contradictions to the validity of organic evolution.

Now that's an area in which you probably have a big head start, due to precipitating here and at PT!

Henry

Yeah, definitely, though it looks like the text says what it has to say about the creationists and then gets on with real biology. (As it should, I might add.)

My carousing here won't be much of an advantage in that respect, in the end. I've picked up way more than that hanging out here though, and that definitely puts me at a significant advantage in all my science classes.

I am profoundly grateful for this place and its gallery of snarky rogues and assorted riff-raff.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2009,20:33   

No need to hunt for snarks after you find this place.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2009,21:14   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Aug. 16 2009,19:28)
That's in Chapter 1, just after a whole section on the Pimples of Science that talked a bit about McLean v. Arkansas and Kitzmiller v. Dover.


Fixed that for you.

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"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Marion Delgado



Posts: 89
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2009,09:59   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Aug. 16 2009,20:33)
No need to hunt for snarks after you find this place.

No one say anything boojuny, or he'll know!

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2564
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 17 2009,10:01   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Aug. 16 2009,20:33)
No need to hunt for snarks after you find this place.

k.e. is really a boojum, BTW.

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It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 20 2009,13:50   

Quote (Lou FCD @ May 15 2009,14:11)
w00t! Just got a call from the English department. 8 Seconds has been chosen for the New River Anthology, to be published in August. Also, they want me to read it at a fall reading.

Got my copy this morning. I'm pretty tickled, even though it's just a little community college publication. My new English instructor is in charge of it, and recognized my name from her roll so she brought my copy to me in class this morning.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 21 2009,17:24   

Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Aug. 16 2009,20:14)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Aug. 16 2009,19:28)
That's in Chapter 1, just after a whole section on the Pimples of Science that talked a bit about McLean v. Arkansas and Kitzmiller v. Dover.


Fixed that for you.

No, no, it's not "pimples", it's "pirahna" (sic).

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2009,15:14   

Coastal transfer students out-perform 4-year UNC students - mostly because we rock. Also, we're better looking.

/yetanotherbragaboutmyschool

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2009,04:35   

Guess what we were discussing in Zo lab yesterday:







Edited by Lou FCD on Sep. 16 2009,05:38

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 16 2009,04:46   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 16 2009,04:35)
Guess what we were discussing in Zo lab yesterday

Yer intestinal tract OR tapeworms named "louis."

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 14 2009,20:34   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Aug. 22 2009,16:14)
Coastal transfer students out-perform 4-year UNC students - mostly because we rock. Also, we're better looking.

/yetanotherbragaboutmyschool

To wit:



I've posted my creative project for my World Lit class, a photographic representation of the poem by Bunina. (Nudes, so no prudes)

From the Seashore by Anna Petrovna Bunina (1806)

I'm very proud of it, so I'm trolling for compliments. :) (OK, if you *must* criticize, be gentle.)

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2010,14:29   

I just got my acceptance letter to UNCW. I'm kind of tearing up. It's dumb I guess, but there you go.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2010,14:37   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 20 2010,15:29)
I just got my acceptance letter to UNCW. I'm kind of tearing up. It's dumb I guess, but there you go.

We'll never hear the end of this.

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2010,19:18   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 20 2010,14:29)
I just got my acceptance letter to UNCW.   I'm kind of tearing up.** It's dumb I guess, but there you go.

Dude way to go!  Unlike all* the other posters here, I of course knew you could do it.  

* Well the UD read-bys anyway...

** I am sure BA77 and/or jerry would be happy to supply a shoulder to cry on...

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Thought Provoker



Posts: 530
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2010,20:07   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 20 2010,14:29)
I just got my acceptance letter to UNCW. I'm kind of tearing up. It's dumb I guess, but there you go.


Congratulations

  
Acipenser



Posts: 35
Joined: Jan. 2010

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2010,20:37   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 20 2010,14:29)
I just got my acceptance letter to UNCW. I'm kind of tearing up. It's dumb I guess, but there you go.

Congratulations!

I don't know if you will find this encouraging or not (hope so) but you'll be younger than I when you finish your degree objectives.  I'm finishing up the last chapter of my thesis this week and I turn 55 on monday....yikes! :O

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2010,21:09   

Thanks ev'r'body.

Quote (Acipenser @ Feb. 20 2010,21:37)
I don't know if you will find this encouraging or not (hope so) but you'll be younger than I when you finish your degree objectives.  I'm finishing up the last chapter of my thesis this week and I turn 55 on monday....yikes! :O


Actually I do. I keep chuckling to myself that I ought to be finishing up my PhD just in time to retire (assuming I live that long...) and it's good to hear that I'm not paddling this boat alone.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
qetzal



Posts: 311
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2010,21:32   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 20 2010,14:29)
I just got my acceptance letter to UNCW. I'm kind of tearing up. It's dumb I guess, but there you go.

Very, very hearty congrats, Lou!

  
Acipenser



Posts: 35
Joined: Jan. 2010

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2010,21:39   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 20 2010,21:09)
Thanks ev'r'body.


Actually I do. I keep chuckling to myself that I ought to be finishing up my PhD just in time to retire (assuming I live that long...) and it's good to hear that I'm not paddling this boat alone.

No, you're not alone on this journey and I've had a few chuckles over the crappy pension plan provided by Graduate Studies.

In any case, all I can offer as advice is apply for everything and hope for anything in the quest for any $$$ that is passibly within your reach.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 15 2010,18:48   

Just a superficial update for now.

I've sort of let this thread wither on the vine, between school and some personal issues I was dealing with (a parting of ways with my wife Jane least among them).

I've been sticking to relatively stress-free Twitter and Facebook stuff, not even blogging much of anything. I've been taking a lot of pictures. (See my sig for some of my better portrait stuff - NSFW, including a few of my naked ass - you've been warned.)

I am now a graduate of Coastal Carolina Community College, with an A.S. in Biology/Biology Ed, and I start my Junior year at UNCW on Wednesday in the Biology program. My course schedule for this fall is all Biology:

Genetics
Plant Physiology
Environmental Science

I'm sort of happy, but also kind of nervous. Back at Coastal, I was sort of a big fish in a little pond. I may need to get used to being just another fish in the ocean.

But also, a lot of me just feels ambivalence. That might just be leftover exhaustion, maybe some burnout, lingering heartache over the personal issues, I don't really know.

I'm really disappointed that I'm not ecstatic about that schedule, about my graduation, about my accomplishment, about my new school, about my new apartment, about being single. I should be thrilled. I've dreamed about an all-advanced-biology schedule for years now. I have it. Why aren't I jumping up and down?

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 15 2010,19:32   

Shit hun.

I went from being a big frog in a little pond to being a nothing much in a a large pond.

You'll do fine.

Shit happens.

Work hard and apply yourself.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Acipenser



Posts: 35
Joined: Jan. 2010

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 15 2010,21:11   

Sorry to hear about the issues you've been dealing with but life does throw you all sorts of curve balls.  Believe me I know how easy it is to lose perspective, enthusiasm, and focus on your academic goals.

To finally finish my Ph.D took 15 years.  I had one three week experiment remaining to complete my first Ph.D. research (not multiple Ph.Ds just the research needed to write a thesis) when I was diagnosed with a potentially nasty liver disease.  It required two years of chemo to treat and it kicked my ass.  I was ill enough from the chemo that I had to PELP (planned educational leave program) for nearly the entire treatment.  At the completion of the treatment I was supposed to be allowed back into the lab to finish the research.  That did not happen but the department stood by my position and offered me the option of taking a masters and walking away or starting over with the research segment of the degree requirements.

I needed to get the PH.D. to fit in the plans of my business partner and I who were going to buy his brother out of the business.  I restarted in a different lab and after I finished the data collection and writing my first chapter my business partner (and best friend for 35 yrs) was diagnosed with one of the nastiest cancers around.  I had to tell him he had maybe a year to live (he lived one year and 5 days after that conversation).  Along with that my sister in law was battling metastatic breast cancer and losing.  My wife and I were close to our friend and SIL and spent nearly an entire year providing care to both of them.  I flew to MD Anderson every two weeks with my buddy until he just couldn't do it no more.  Myself and wife flew to Washington to help take care of her sister in the final weeks of her life.  They died within 3 weeks of each other.

Now while all this was going on my time exptensions were running out and I knew it.  I tried several times to sit down and write but just couldn't get the job done.  My graduate group again stood behind me knowing what I had been facing and gave me the time to finally finish the thesis.  I did not get my enthusiasm back for the lab and writing for about a year after their deaths.  Not only was my friend (and SIL) gone but our long-term business plans (the entire purpose of staying in school and for that matter pursuing a Ph.D. in the first place) were shot to hell.  For so much of that time I felt like I wanted to retreat back to our home in the mountains and chuck it all.

I am glad that I didn't stop and did finally finish the degree.  It has opened up new opportunities and I am currently working on a couple of great and very challenging projects.  And I get to work with fish everyday....it just doesn't get any better than that!

Take a deep breath and revaluate your goals and if a degree is in the future get reinvolved with somebody doing some research.  Our lab always has a slew of undergrads who work with us and might it be possible you could find a workstudy program that will generate some $$ for you.  Moving up to a larger University will make it easier for you to find someone who has some cash and wants you to work for them.

sorry about going all KF on ya but wanted to let you know that as an older student you have a bit more of life's potholes to deal with than the typical undergrad.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 15 2010,22:14   

I think several of us are in or have been in the "students over the traditional age" club. I'm sorry to hear that things haven't been going well lately. But I hope that you are able to get past that to take full advantage of the opportunities that may be available at your new school. When I think back to my undergrad days, I can recall that there were many chances I could have had to get involved that I passed by. Join or start a study group: a bit of structure in your life may be helpful to get you going. If there is a seminar series put on by your department, make an effort to go to it. Find out who's doing the research that most interests you and find out if they could use a volunteer.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2010,03:58   

Hi Lou,

Sorry to hear about the crappier elements of your personal life, but that said, I am even sorrier to have visited your website and seen photos of your arse. ;-)

All I can say about the degree stuff is that you are an inspiration. Well done you. It takes a lot of courage to do what you've done (and no small amount of ability) so whatever headgear I am wearing has been very thoroughly taken off in your direction!

When I say you are an inspiration by the way, I mean it literally. For my job I have to know/learn a lot of biology/biochem, I saw what you were doing and thought to myself "why the hell am I slogging through all this stuff to have no shiny object at the end of it? That Lou bloke is doing it, so can I!" So either October this year or January 2011 I am starting an Open University degree in Life Sciences whilst still working. So slightly different from you (this will take me about 6 years, and is done remotely for the most part). I'm doing this for a combination of personal edification, love of things biological, time saving (it saves me the effort of researching things to learn about, weird I know) and you never know, it might help my career (it might not, but that's not important, I make that toddle along well enough by itself!;)

For the Foreigners among you the Open University is a respectable institution giving out well recognised degrees, not Patriot University of Bible Study and Diploma Milling or something similar. Check it out, esp those in the UK, it's a bloody good way to learn a subject to degree level in a non-traditional way.

Louis

P.S. "Students over the traditional age" rock and rock hard. In my experience they always make the best students because more often than not they want to study. I might be biased!

--------------
Bye.

  
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2010,10:12   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Aug. 16 2009,20:45)
Quote (Henry J @ Aug. 16 2009,18:31)
 
Quote
It also prepares the student to dismiss the arguments of creationists who misconstrue scientific challenges to Darwinism as contradictions to the validity of organic evolution.

Now that's an area in which you probably have a big head start, due to precipitating here and at PT!

Henry

Yeah, definitely, though it looks like the text says what it has to say about the creationists and then gets on with real biology. (As it should, I might add.)

My carousing here won't be much of an advantage in that respect, in the end. I've picked up way more than that hanging out here though, and that definitely puts me at a significant advantage in all my science classes.

I am profoundly grateful for this place and its gallery of snarky rogues and assorted riff-raff.

The finest riff-raff hang out here.

ETA: Yes, I realize I responded to something a year old.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2010,11:05   

Lou:

1. That sucks.

2. Congratulations.

3. Hey, sometimes school is exciting, sometimes it's just work.

Life is rich, huh?

Khan: no-one said we're Rapid Response Riff-Raff™!

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 16 2010,18:32   

Lou - Congrats and Ouch - I think we've all been there.

Fortunately for you, I have a wonderful idea that will help your focus and get back on the Janie Bell and Kate Bandwagon:  YOU CAN START UP THE UNC IDEA CLUB!!! 111.

Just imagine the fun, the excitement, the looks on the other club members when you bring in Casey Luskin hisself to speak to them!!!!  (BTW - Don't forget to fund raise enough to get him the extra airline seat required for his eyebrows.)

I know.  You can thank me later - by posting a picture of the look on Casey's face as HE looks at your skinny little butt sans clothing!

But srsly - keep on hanging in and hanging out.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 22 2010,18:18   

Hey, thanks all for the kindnesses.

I'm feeling a bit better about things, and I appreciate your taking the time to speak up.

...or in the words of Bartles & Jaymes,

Thank you, for your support.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 15 2010,22:53   

Hi Lou,

Sorry things got rough. Life is full of twists I guess. But you should be in classes about now, yes?

Just wanted to say that I'm a little jealous that you are taking a genetics class. When I went through biology, genetics was, er, not as advanced as it is now. All the young biologists/ecologists I meet these days have so much understanding it makes me want to go back just so I can get a structured understanding.

Then I remember that it's also work and I go out and buy a 12 pack instead. But it's the thought that counts as they say. Also, as far as how big a pond it is, remember that C is average; you are not going to a pond full of bigger fish.

Congratulations.

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 20 2010,17:55   

Quote (Louis @ Aug. 16 2010,04:58)
All I can say about the degree stuff is that you are an inspiration. Well done you. It takes a lot of courage to do what you've done (and no small amount of ability) so whatever headgear I am wearing has been very thoroughly taken off in your direction!

When I say you are an inspiration by the way, I mean it literally. For my job I have to know/learn a lot of biology/biochem, I saw what you were doing and thought to myself "why the hell am I slogging through all this stuff to have no shiny object at the end of it? That Lou bloke is doing it, so can I!" So either October this year or January 2011 I am starting an Open University degree in Life Sciences whilst still working. So slightly different from you (this will take me about 6 years, and is done remotely for the most part). I'm doing this for a combination of personal edification, love of things biological, time saving (it saves me the effort of researching things to learn about, weird I know) and you never know, it might help my career (it might not, but that's not important, I make that toddle along well enough by itself!)

Louis,

I am humbled. I don't know what else to say about this.

Lou

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 20 2010,17:57   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Aug. 15 2010,23:14)
I think several of us are in or have been in the "students over the traditional age" club. I'm sorry to hear that things haven't been going well lately. But I hope that you are able to get past that to take full advantage of the opportunities that may be available at your new school. When I think back to my undergrad days, I can recall that there were many chances I could have had to get involved that I passed by. Join or start a study group: a bit of structure in your life may be helpful to get you going. If there is a seminar series put on by your department, make an effort to go to it. Find out who's doing the research that most interests you and find out if they could use a volunteer.

Thanks, Wesley.

This all means a lot to me, the encouragement and the advice.

Lou

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 20 2010,17:59   

Quote (BWE @ Sep. 15 2010,23:53)
Hi Lou,

Sorry things got rough. Life is full of twists I guess. But you should be in classes about now, yes?

Just wanted to say that I'm a little jealous that you are taking a genetics class. When I went through biology, genetics was, er, not as advanced as it is now. All the young biologists/ecologists I meet these days have so much understanding it makes me want to go back just so I can get a structured understanding.

Then I remember that it's also work and I go out and buy a 12 pack instead. But it's the thought that counts as they say. Also, as far as how big a pond it is, remember that C is average; you are not going to a pond full of bigger fish.

Congratulations.

BWE,

I am always glad to hear from you, and you couldn't have picked a better time to show up with some encouragement.

Peace, Brother Man,

Lou

P.S. Didja hear DNA is a double helix?? :) Enjoy the six pack, and tip one for me.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Robin



Posts: 1431
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 21 2010,08:43   

Hey Lou, I hope things have gotten a little better in the month since you posted about the personal/school stuff. Very tough going I'm sure and believe me, as others have stated (in some detail) there are those of us who can relate.

Trust me when I say that the light at the end of the tunnel isn't a train.  ;)

Good luck and good work!

--------------
we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed.  Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 21 2010,10:51   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 20 2010,23:55)
Quote (Louis @ Aug. 16 2010,04:58)
All I can say about the degree stuff is that you are an inspiration. Well done you. It takes a lot of courage to do what you've done (and no small amount of ability) so whatever headgear I am wearing has been very thoroughly taken off in your direction!

When I say you are an inspiration by the way, I mean it literally. For my job I have to know/learn a lot of biology/biochem, I saw what you were doing and thought to myself "why the hell am I slogging through all this stuff to have no shiny object at the end of it? That Lou bloke is doing it, so can I!" So either October this year or January 2011 I am starting an Open University degree in Life Sciences whilst still working. So slightly different from you (this will take me about 6 years, and is done remotely for the most part). I'm doing this for a combination of personal edification, love of things biological, time saving (it saves me the effort of researching things to learn about, weird I know) and you never know, it might help my career (it might not, but that's not important, I make that toddle along well enough by itself!)

Louis,

I am humbled. I don't know what else to say about this.

Lou

[Exquisite Japanese style uber-politeness mode]

No, sir. It is I who am more humbled by your commitment and humility in the the face of adversity.

[/Exquisite Japanese style uber-politeness mode]

I think we now try to out bow each other and hand over business cards in a serious and solemn fashion. I may have got this wrong. ;-)

But seriously Lou, you are an inspiration...of the good kind, honest!

It takes real balls to buck a prevailing trend (serious education later than the usual age) and in this economic climate you must be missing out on a luxury or two to make it. Maybe not, but if you are turning up to college in a Ferrari and crocodile skin shoes, don't tell me, it'll ruin my mental image of honest toil!

Two quotes for ya buddy:

“If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away…”, Henry David Thoreau

“It's easy to drift with the current swift.
You just lie in your boat and dream.
But in Nature's Plan, it takes a real man
To paddle a boat upstream.”
, Author Unknown (Translation, muggins here didn't Google properly)

In the immortal words of the Prophet*: Give it some bollocks!**

Louis

* My mate Chris. A very lovely man.

** If I may be permitted to translate for the assembled Colonials, Foreigners and Degenerates (but I repeat myself): "Please go about your task with enthusiasm, effort and a certain insouciant espieglerie." Thank you.

Editted a) to insert spelling and grammatical errors, b) because I can, and c) to piss off FTK because we all know she is still reading. And on the subject of old shitheads reappearing, what the hairy gibbering clam-cock is Obliviot doing resurfacing under a new account (to avoid restrictions) and having no one at all hit him with anything stick shaped? I shall have to correct this if and when I can be bothered. Which is unlikely. Hell I might even be n...n...n...ni...niiiiicc....Nope can't say it. ;-)

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 21 2010,10:58   

Quote (Robin @ Sep. 21 2010,14:43)
[SNIP]

Trust me when I say that the light at the end of the tunnel isn't a train.  ;)

[SNIP]

a) Depends on the tunnel.

b) Yes, sadly, it invariably is.

However, given that, it can be an interesting time to start either a) trainspotting or b) a very advanced sprinting career. In other words, when life gives you lemons say "Oi, garcon! I ordered fucking oranges! Sort it out por favor!".

It seems to work for other people. I can't imagine why. ;-)

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Robin



Posts: 1431
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 21 2010,13:13   

[quote=Louis,Sep. 21 2010,10:58][/quote]
Quote
Quote (Robin @ Sep. 21 2010,14:43)
[SNIP]

Trust me when I say that the light at the end of the tunnel isn't a train.  ;)

[SNIP]

a) Depends on the tunnel.

b) Yes, sadly, it invariably is.

However, given that, it can be an interesting time to start either a) trainspotting or b) a very advanced sprinting career. In other words, when life gives you lemons say "Oi, garcon! I ordered fucking oranges! Sort it out por favor!".

It seems to work for other people. I can't imagine why. ;-)

Louis


Ahhh Louis... :D


I daresay though, if the light is from an approaching engine, one should only take up trainspotting if one is farsighted. Otherwise the train identification will be rather brief.

--------------
we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed.  Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 21 2010,15:02   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 21 2010,08:58)
Quote (Robin @ Sep. 21 2010,14:43)
[SNIP]

Trust me when I say that the light at the end of the tunnel isn't a train.  ;)

[SNIP]

a) Depends on the tunnel.

b) Yes, sadly, it invariably is.

However, given that, it can be an interesting time to start either a) trainspotting or b) a very advanced sprinting career. In other words, when life gives you lemons say "Oi, garcon! I ordered fucking oranges! Sort it out por favor!".

It seems to work for other people. I can't imagine why. ;-)

Louis

DIBS!

I called it.

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 22 2010,03:41   

Quote (fnxtr @ Sep. 21 2010,21:02)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 21 2010,08:58)
Quote (Robin @ Sep. 21 2010,14:43)
[SNIP]

Trust me when I say that the light at the end of the tunnel isn't a train.  ;)

[SNIP]

a) Depends on the tunnel.

b) Yes, sadly, it invariably is.

However, given that, it can be an interesting time to start either a) trainspotting or b) a very advanced sprinting career. In other words, when life gives you lemons say "Oi, garcon! I ordered fucking oranges! Sort it out por favor!".

It seems to work for other people. I can't imagine why. ;-)

Louis

DIBS!

I called it.

Dammit!

I'm never saying anything sig worthy again. I keep getting quoted against my will. It's violation I tells ya, violation!

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1692
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 22 2010,04:49   

Quote
I keep getting quoted against my will


I understand your distress. I'd never do anything like that to you...

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 22 2010,07:18   

Quote (Schroedinger's Dog @ Sep. 22 2010,10:49)
Quote
I keep getting quoted against my will


I understand your distress. I'd never do anything like that to you...

Yeah, you're a paragon of virtue in that department! ;-)

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2010,12:32   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 20 2010,15:59)
Quote (BWE @ Sep. 15 2010,23:53)
Hi Lou,

Sorry things got rough. Life is full of twists I guess. But you should be in classes about now, yes?

Just wanted to say that I'm a little jealous that you are taking a genetics class. When I went through biology, genetics was, er, not as advanced as it is now. All the young biologists/ecologists I meet these days have so much understanding it makes me want to go back just so I can get a structured understanding.

Then I remember that it's also work and I go out and buy a 12 pack instead. But it's the thought that counts as they say. Also, as far as how big a pond it is, remember that C is average; you are not going to a pond full of bigger fish.

Congratulations.

BWE,

I am always glad to hear from you, and you couldn't have picked a better time to show up with some encouragement.

Peace, Brother Man,

Lou

P.S. Didja hear DNA is a double helix?? :) Enjoy the six pack, and tip one for me.

I did hear about the double helix thing. I think one of the big questions had to do with why so much junk dna and whether humans had <>100k genes.

:) Now thanks to Collins, Venter, Carroll et. al. I just read scientific american to stay as current as the rest of the scientists. :D

PS. Do you notice that the fish are about the same?

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
Texas Teach



Posts: 2084
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2010,18:31   

Quote (BWE @ Sep. 23 2010,12:32)
:) Now thanks to Collins, Venter, Carroll et. al. I just read scientific american to stay as current as the rest of the scientists. :D

Is that your subscription or do you have your wife buy them for you?

--------------
"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 27 2010,16:47   

Quote (Texas Teach @ Sep. 23 2010,16:31)
Quote (BWE @ Sep. 23 2010,12:32)
:) Now thanks to Collins, Venter, Carroll et. al. I just read scientific american to stay as current as the rest of the scientists. :D

Is that your subscription or do you have your wife buy them for you?

no, I take them from the coffee table at work. :D

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 27 2010,18:26   

Quote (BWE @ Sep. 27 2010,17:47)
Quote (Texas Teach @ Sep. 23 2010,16:31)
Quote (BWE @ Sep. 23 2010,12:32)
:) Now thanks to Collins, Venter, Carroll et. al. I just read scientific american to stay as current as the rest of the scientists. :D

Is that your subscription or do you have your wife buy them for you?

no, I take them from the coffee table at work. :D

I so have to get my doctor and dentist to subscribe to SciAm and Nature.  That'll save me a bundle.   :)

--------------
I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 27 2010,20:55   

Quote (BWE @ Sep. 23 2010,13:32)
PS. Do you notice that the fish are about the same?

A pleasant realization, if ever there was one!

Thanks to everyone who's offered words of support. There is a beer in Wilmington, NC for each of you.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Bob O'H



Posts: 2564
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2010,11:22   

Yeah, but you're going to drink them, aren't you? You bastard.

--------------
It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2010,12:02   

A beer for for each of us? A beer? **A** beer????

I for one am insulted! Should I make it to Wilmington, NC (granted, unlikely, but still I should do a Grand Tour of the USA one year. I miss the place) I shall demand that the local brewery is put on emergency notice and that all available transplantable livers are available on standby.

Of course that is going to have to be after this effing health kick I'm on. I never want to see fizzy water again. It's not as good as beer, they lied.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2010,19:09   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 28 2010,12:02)
A beer for for each of us? A beer? **A** beer????

I for one am insulted! Should I make it to Wilmington, NC (granted, unlikely, but still I should do a Grand Tour of the USA one year. I miss the place) I shall demand that the local brewery is put on emergency notice and that all available transplantable livers are available on standby.

Of course that is going to have to be after this effing health kick I'm on. I never want to see fizzy water again. It's not as good as beer, they lied.

Louis

Hey wait a minute!  Isn't NC one of the states that you're not allowed to wander around in again after those "regretable incidents" the last time that Homeland Security bent the rules and allowed you in?

Which leads me to play Hounslow East.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2010,19:09   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 28 2010,10:02)
A beer for for each of us? A beer? **A** beer????

As long as it's imported. :-)

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 28 2010,19:31   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 28 2010,12:02)
I never want to see fizzy water again. It's not as good as beer, they lied.

You get Budweiser in England?

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 29 2010,05:39   

Quote (J-Dog @ Sep. 29 2010,01:09)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 28 2010,12:02)
A beer for for each of us? A beer? **A** beer????

I for one am insulted! Should I make it to Wilmington, NC (granted, unlikely, but still I should do a Grand Tour of the USA one year. I miss the place) I shall demand that the local brewery is put on emergency notice and that all available transplantable livers are available on standby.

Of course that is going to have to be after this effing health kick I'm on. I never want to see fizzy water again. It's not as good as beer, they lied.

Louis

Hey wait a minute!  Isn't NC one of the states that you're not allowed to wander around in again after those "regretable incidents" the last time that Homeland Security bent the rules and allowed you in?

Which leads me to play Hounslow East.

I'm allowed back to the Carolinas and Georgia but never to the "Best Western" chain of hotels, Kentucky, Alabama, most of Texas, certain medical centres on the east coast, Baja, parts of New Mexico, any state Sarah Palin is in at the time and Paris Hilton.

I'm happy about that last part. Being banned from Paris Hilton is something of an acheivement.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 29 2010,05:48   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Sep. 29 2010,01:31)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 28 2010,12:02)
I never want to see fizzy water again. It's not as good as beer, they lied.

You get Budweiser in England?

Unfortunately.

It's mostly "brewed under licence in Burton on Trent". This is a quaint British euphemism for "some hops and yeast were chucked in a bucket of unfiltered river water and the results were fortified with ethanol cracked out of North Sea crude oil". See: Stella, Kronenberg, Hofmeister, Heineken, Lowenbrau, Staropramen and other assorted makes of "Wifebeater"*.

Louis

*The affectionate not-at-all-misogynistic term for generic ~5% alcohol piss water lager that we get foisted upon us in hostelries across this great land. To say I disapprove would be an understatement. The term "Wifebeater" is sufficiently common that a gentleman of a certain socioeconomic class can walk into the public hostelry of his choice and ask the proprietor, or his/her designated employee, for a pint a of Wifebeater and be assured that a Stella Artois will be poured for him. Should Stella Artois be unavailable different beverages that permit enragement of said gentlemen will be suggested in order that he can return home safe in the knowledge that upon arrival he will be sufficiently lubricated to merrily "bray the missus" for any minor transgression she has commited. HTH HAND.

--------------
Bye.

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 29 2010,20:53   

Quote (Bob O'H @ Sep. 28 2010,12:22)
Yeah, but you're going to drink them, aren't you? You bastard.

You got me. :)

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 29 2010,20:55   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 28 2010,13:02)
A beer for for each of us? A beer? **A** beer???

(snip the blah blah blah)

<---poor college student and starving artist. That's like broke2

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 29 2010,20:58   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 29 2010,06:48)
Quote (carlsonjok @ Sep. 29 2010,01:31)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 28 2010,12:02)
I never want to see fizzy water again. It's not as good as beer, they lied.

You get Budweiser in England?

Unfortunately.

It's mostly "brewed under licence in Burton on Trent". This is a quaint British euphemism for "some hops and yeast were chucked in a bucket of unfiltered river water and the results were fortified with ethanol cracked out of North Sea crude oil".

Ah, so it's almost as bad as the real thing?

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 30 2010,04:15   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 30 2010,02:55)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 28 2010,13:02)
A beer for for each of us? A beer? **A** beer???

(snip the blah blah blah)

<---poor college student and starving artist. That's like broke2

Ahhh but you'll notice my solutions didn't require your cash, just your notifying the emergency services ahead of time!

Anyway, I take it you are angling for an AtBC rescue posse to descend on Wilmington, get you horribly drunk, and force you to make inappropriate phone calls to Casey Luskin at obscure hours of the morning. If so...I approve!

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 30 2010,08:49   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 30 2010,02:15)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 30 2010,02:55)
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 28 2010,13:02)
A beer for for each of us? A beer? **A** beer???

(snip the blah blah blah)

<---poor college student and starving artist. That's like broke2

Ahhh but you'll notice my solutions didn't require your cash, just your notifying the emergency services ahead of time!

Anyway, I take it you are angling for an AtBC rescue posse to descend on Wilmington, get you horribly drunk, and force you to make inappropriate phone calls to Casey Luskin at obscure hours of the morning. If so...I approve!

Louis

I think a drunken, 2am "Why did we ever break up" call to Denyse would be more fun.

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 30 2010,20:57   

"Beer bad. Wait, what am I saying?" - Xander Harris.

Henry

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2010,19:38   

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 30 2010,05:15)
 
Quote (Lou FCD @ Sep. 30 2010,02:55)
 
Quote (Louis @ Sep. 28 2010,13:02)
A beer for for each of us? A beer? **A** beer???

(snip the blah blah blah)

<---poor college student and starving artist. That's like broke2

Ahhh but you'll notice my solutions didn't require your cash, just your notifying the emergency services ahead of time!

Ah, well in that case, you're on!

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 30 2010,05:15)
Anyway, I take it you are angling for an AtBC rescue posse to descend on Wilmington, get you horribly drunk,

Well, duh.

Quote (Louis @ Sep. 30 2010,05:15)
and force you to make inappropriate phone calls to Casey Luskin at obscure hours of the morning. If so...I approve!

Louis


hmm..... I don't know how comfortable I am with Lacy Casey of the Caterpillar Unibrow having my number, but it's not like I can't direct his return calls directly to voicemail...

Let's do it!

Edited for proper capitalization.

Edited by Lou FCD on Oct. 01 2010,20:39

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 01 2010,23:44   

I reckon this ought to go in this thread.



--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Robin



Posts: 1431
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2010,10:49   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Oct. 01 2010,23:44)
I reckon this ought to go in this thread.




Booyaw! Congrats Lou!

--------------
we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed.  Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2010,11:20   

Thanks, Robin!

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 09 2010,10:26   

It would seem I owe the Discovery Institute a bit of thanks.

While registering for Spring classes at UNCW, I saw that my Genetics instructor is teaching a seminar that would interest me: BIO 495: Creative Differences: Evolution and Religion

Alas, by the time I got to register, the 12 seats stood at -1 remaining.

After Genetics this morning, I spoke to my instructor about it, and this is the word-for-word transcript:

 
Quote
Hi. I'm actually in college because I started following the Dover trial. What do I have to do to get into your seminar?


Her face lit up like it was Christmas.

 
Quote
I'll get you in. Email me.


The whole conversation was almost short enough to fit into a tweet. Apparently, "Dover" is like a magic word.

Thanks, Disco 'Tute TARDs.

Edited by Lou FCD on Nov. 09 2010,11:26

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 09 2010,10:33   

Abraca-Dover?



Edited by Lou FCD on Nov. 09 2010,11:49

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 09 2010,10:49   

Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 09 2010,11:33)
Abraca-Dover?


You just made my day. Thanks.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 09 2010,10:54   

Reckon it was time to amend the thread title to reflect my continuing education.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 09 2010,13:12   

Quote (Henry J @ Nov. 09 2010,10:33)
Abraca-Dover?


Congrats on the Abracadover to you too!~

And what about going all out with a YabadabaIDiot, and inviting Casey "Tits" Luskin to speak to your "IDEA" Club???? (Intelligent Design Equals Assholiness)

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 10 2011,01:32   

Sorry to just pop in now and then but I figured this thread would be up to date. Are you in school this quarter Lou?

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 10 2011,10:40   

Hey BWE!

Yeah, and I just got my ass handed to me in a Vertebrate Natural History lab practical yesterday. Freshwater fish and amphibians in the southeast US.

ouch.

The rest of my schedule is going ok, though. I've just been swamped lately. The weekend is looking good for some update stuff though.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 10 2011,11:14   

Quote
and amphibians in the southeast US.


Did you misidentify Newt Gingrich again?

  
Texas Teach



Posts: 2084
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 10 2011,17:02   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Feb. 10 2011,11:14)
Quote
and amphibians in the southeast US.


Did you misidentify Newt Gingrich again?

He got better.

--------------
"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
Sol3a1



Posts: 110
Joined: July 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2011,10:00   

Quote (Texas Teach @ Feb. 10 2011,17:02)
Quote (Doc Bill @ Feb. 10 2011,11:14)
Quote
and amphibians in the southeast US.
Did you misidentify Newt Gingrich again?
He got better.

I always thought he was a horny toad

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2011,14:46   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Feb. 10 2011,12:14)
Quote
and amphibians in the southeast US.


Did you misidentify Newt Gingrich again?

Worse, I failed to identify about 60 species of fish and amphibians. Brain lock at the second station, I began to fixate on the 90 second clock, and it was all bad after that.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Sol3a1



Posts: 110
Joined: July 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2011,14:49   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 11 2011,14:46)
Quote (Doc Bill @ Feb. 10 2011,12:14)
Quote
and amphibians in the southeast US.
Did you misidentify Newt Gingrich again?
Worse, I failed to identify about 60 species of fish and amphibians. Brain lock at the second station, I began to fixate on the 90 second clock, and it was all bad after that.

Major suckage

As a fellow student (of networking, not biology) I do still know about brain lock and how it can turn a good day into absolute crap

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 11 2011,14:50   

Quote (Sol3a1 @ Feb. 11 2011,15:49)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 11 2011,14:46)
Quote (Doc Bill @ Feb. 10 2011,12:14)
 
Quote
and amphibians in the southeast US.
Did you misidentify Newt Gingrich again?
Worse, I failed to identify about 60 species of fish and amphibians. Brain lock at the second station, I began to fixate on the 90 second clock, and it was all bad after that.

Major suckage

As a fellow student (of networking, not biology) I do still know about brain lock and how it can turn a good day into absolute crap

My exact words, wrapped around an F-bomb.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
BWE



Posts: 1902
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2011,17:34   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 11 2011,12:46)
Quote (Doc Bill @ Feb. 10 2011,12:14)
Quote
and amphibians in the southeast US.


Did you misidentify Newt Gingrich again?

Worse, I failed to identify about 60 species of fish and amphibians. Brain lock at the second station, I began to fixate on the 90 second clock, and it was all bad after that.

Ugh. Did you talk to the instructor after? I assume that the majority of exams don't go that way.

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2011,08:34   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 11 2011,14:46)
Quote (Doc Bill @ Feb. 10 2011,12:14)
Quote
and amphibians in the southeast US.


Did you misidentify Newt Gingrich again?

Worse, I failed to identify about 60 species of fish and amphibians. Brain lock at the second station, I began to fixate on the 90 second clock, and it was all bad after that.

I recall once studying all night for a final, went to the test all pumped up and turned in a blank blue-book... Damn good think the Prof let me have another go at it later.

Turn on the famous "Lou Charm", or maybe give prof some feelthy pictures?

Good luck dude.  Let me know if sacrificing another ID-Believing Christian will help.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2011,08:37   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 11 2011,12:46)
Quote (Doc Bill @ Feb. 10 2011,12:14)
Quote
and amphibians in the southeast US.


Did you misidentify Newt Gingrich again?

Worse, I failed to identify about 60 species of fish and amphibians. Brain lock at the second station, I began to fixate on the 90 second clock, and it was all bad after that.

1st year calculus. Night class. Crazy girlfriend. Cadaver for a prof.  Bombsville.

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
KCdgw



Posts: 376
Joined: Sep. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2011,10:44   

Quote (fnxtr @ Feb. 14 2011,08:37)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 11 2011,12:46)
Quote (Doc Bill @ Feb. 10 2011,12:14)
 
Quote
and amphibians in the southeast US.


Did you misidentify Newt Gingrich again?

Worse, I failed to identify about 60 species of fish and amphibians. Brain lock at the second station, I began to fixate on the 90 second clock, and it was all bad after that.

1st year calculus. Night class. Crazy girlfriend. Cadaver for a prof.  Bombsville.

The infamous "Rodent ID" exam in Mammalogy. After a few minutes, the damned things all began to look alike.

--------------
Those who know the truth are not equal to those who love it-- Confucius

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2011,10:53   

Well, rats!

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2011,14:13   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 11 2011,20:50)
Quote (Sol3a1 @ Feb. 11 2011,15:49)
 
Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 11 2011,14:46)
 
Quote (Doc Bill @ Feb. 10 2011,12:14)
   
Quote
and amphibians in the southeast US.
Did you misidentify Newt Gingrich again?
Worse, I failed to identify about 60 species of fish and amphibians. Brain lock at the second station, I began to fixate on the 90 second clock, and it was all bad after that.

Major suckage

As a fellow student (of networking, not biology) I do still know about brain lock and how it can turn a good day into absolute crap

My exact words, wrapped around an F-bomb.

I remember major instances of brain lock in my life. A couple of classics:

1) During physics A-level (final year of UK high school exams, ~US college freshman/sophomore equivalent...or they were back then) I forget the equation for a straight line (y=mx+c) and totally brain farted over it for a hour.

2) Second paper of same subject I couldn't remember the Doppler Effect. I knew EXACTLY what it was but had to try to answer the question without the words "Doppler Effect".

3) First year undergrad chemistry I forgot what urea was. UREA!!!!

4) I memorably, cringingly, arse quakingly forgot what "mechanical stirring" was (it's the use of an overhead stirrer for really thick reaction mixtures where magnetic stirring is not appropriate). When my boss said to me in my first week on the job "that'll need mechanical stirring for 24 hours" I blurted out without a moments reflection "BY HAND!!??". Yeah. He laughed. I felt like an utter cock end. This was something I did pretty much every day as well. Muppetry doesn't even begin to cover it.

Ohhhhh brain locks. I know them well.

Happens to the best of us Lou, put it behind you, have a beer, and laugh at yourself.....many years later after appropriate grief of course. You have my sympathy though, brain lock is embarrassing and always occurs on topics you a) know well and b) understand.

Louis

ETA: P.S. I recommend drinking heavily. Contrary to the wise words of Dean Vernon Wermer in National Lampoon's Animal House, fat, drunk and stupid IS a way to go through life. Quite a good one actually.

--------------
Bye.

  
Texas Teach



Posts: 2084
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2011,17:14   

My two best exam failures:

The first was Freshman year of college.  I was taking the second semester of calculus (I'd tested out of the 1st).  I was having trouble making it to that class at 8 am every day, and hadn't been in a week.  Showed up and was handed a test.  Not my best work.


The second was in grad school.  PhD comprehensive exams involved passing 5 out of 10 exams.  Some professors gave a long list of references, others only one (and you had to track down anything else relevant).  This particular one was over some analytic chemistry topic that I can't remotely remember now.  I knew I didn't really get it, but figured what the hell.  When I got there it was all detailed memory questions on a couple of articles rather that big concepts (what I'd tried, unsuccessfully, to study).  I stared at it hopelessly for about ten minutes, then decided to enjoy my Saturday and turned it in blank.

--------------
"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2011,18:08   

Strangely (or perhaps not), all the sympathetic stories are making me feel a lot better about it.

Y'all rock.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2011,18:22   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 15 2011,00:08)
Strangely (or perhaps not), all the sympathetic stories are making me feel a lot better about it.

Y'all rock.

He who never made a mistake never made anything.

By this standard I am the world's most productive individual.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2011,18:48   

Quote (Louis @ Feb. 14 2011,16:22)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 15 2011,00:08)
Strangely (or perhaps not), all the sympathetic stories are making me feel a lot better about it.

Y'all rock.

He who never made a mistake never made anything.

By this standard I am the world's most productive individual.

Louis

Oh, yeah, then there was the 3rd Year Music Theory exam:

"Fill in the chords between the given ones, to create an omnibus."

Uh... what? Oh feck.

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2011,21:51   

I once was set to give a deposition in professional context. In came three attorneys, two of whom were charged with making me look like an idiot. They were followed by a cart full of video equipment and a court reporter. A microphone was clipped to my tie, the camera oriented and the equipment activated. First question posed to me, by the attorney for whom my testimony would be favorable, was an easy one, albeit broad, lazy. My response would be witnessed by a jury.  

I could not respond. 10 seconds passed. 20 seconds. Silence. 30 seconds. I could feel my heart beating under the microphone. 40 seconds. Fuck, I'd better say something - but couldn't. 60 seconds. Disabled by mounting anxiety, I could not organize a response. Further eternities passed. I mumbled something.

Once things got underway I did more than OK. But I still blanch when I think about that very long minute or so. Fortunately, I was subpoenaed for another video deposition a few weeks later, and did well. Nothing like getting back on the horse. Even if it is, for somebody, the one you ride in on.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
noncarborundum



Posts: 320
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2011,00:44   

Quote (fnxtr @ Feb. 14 2011,18:48)
Quote (Louis @ Feb. 14 2011,16:22)
 
Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 15 2011,00:08)
Strangely (or perhaps not), all the sympathetic stories are making me feel a lot better about it.

Y'all rock.

He who never made a mistake never made anything.

By this standard I am the world's most productive individual.

Louis

Oh, yeah, then there was the 3rd Year Music Theory exam:

"Fill in the chords between the given ones, to create an omnibus."

Uh... what? Oh feck.

To create a what?

It worries me that I don't know this, especially since I majored in music theory.  Granted, that was a long time ago, and maybe things have changed.  The only musical omnibus I remember is the one in the Flanders & Swann song.

--------------
"The . . . um . . . okay, I was genetically selected for blue eyes.  I know there are brown eyes, because I've observed them, but I can't do it.  Okay?  So . . . um . . . coz that's real genetic selection, not the nonsense Giberson and the others are talking about." - DO'L

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2011,08:12   

What about this one?



or even this one?



--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2011,08:35   

Quote (noncarborundum @ Feb. 14 2011,22:44)
Quote (fnxtr @ Feb. 14 2011,18:48)
 
Quote (Louis @ Feb. 14 2011,16:22)
 
Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 15 2011,00:08)
Strangely (or perhaps not), all the sympathetic stories are making me feel a lot better about it.

Y'all rock.

He who never made a mistake never made anything.

By this standard I am the world's most productive individual.

Louis

Oh, yeah, then there was the 3rd Year Music Theory exam:

"Fill in the chords between the given ones, to create an omnibus."

Uh... what? Oh feck.

To create a what?

It worries me that I don't know this, especially since I majored in music theory.  Granted, that was a long time ago, and maybe things have changed.  The only musical omnibus I remember is the one in the Flanders & Swann song.

I think it was Romantic.

Never heard of it since.

(Cue "That's What I Like About You" jokes in 3, 2, 1...)

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"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
Bing



Posts: 144
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2011,13:03   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 14 2011,18:08)
Strangely (or perhaps not), all the sympathetic stories are making me feel a lot better about it.

Y'all rock.

Research Methodology.  The instructor was a freak who had only completed at PhD.  (He had quit college after 1st semester in his freshman year, bummed around in the computer labs for the next year and a half and upon his return went straight into the PhD program)  He believed that it was more sensitive statistically to set a brutal exam and scale up the results to achieve the appropriate mean and standard deviation.  6 hours into the 3 hour exam (7-10pm so it was now 1am the next day) he kicked everyone out of the room.  I believe my raw score was in the high 20's but it scaled out as a B+.

The worst part was the bars all closed at 1am so we couldn't even go for 10 drinks when the exam 'ended'.

  
KCdgw



Posts: 376
Joined: Sep. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2011,13:29   

Quote (Bing @ Feb. 15 2011,13:03)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 14 2011,18:08)
Strangely (or perhaps not), all the sympathetic stories are making me feel a lot better about it.

Y'all rock.

Research Methodology.  The instructor was a freak who had only completed at PhD.  (He had quit college after 1st semester in his freshman year, bummed around in the computer labs for the next year and a half and upon his return went straight into the PhD program)  He believed that it was more sensitive statistically to set a brutal exam and scale up the results to achieve the appropriate mean and standard deviation.  6 hours into the 3 hour exam (7-10pm so it was now 1am the next day) he kicked everyone out of the room.  I believe my raw score was in the high 20's but it scaled out as a B+.

The worst part was the bars all closed at 1am so we couldn't even go for 10 drinks when the exam 'ended'.

There was a legendary (and most likely apocryphal)  Physics prof at Cal who gave an exam in his Honors course strictly on the curve. There were 5 students in the class: One scored 98%, three scored 99%, and one scored 100%.  Grade distribution: A: 1 C: 3 F: 1

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Those who know the truth are not equal to those who love it-- Confucius

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 15 2011,13:38   

This really isn't my fail, but I sure as hell didn't learn anything.

Second semester of minerology.  We're given a lab test that's basically, "here's 100 minerals, tell us everything you know about them in 4 hours"

Well, my professor had a project about to go up on the space shuttle, so we saw him twice the entire semester.  The only grad student in the Geology Department had never taken advanced minerology.  We were given a textbook and about 2000 pages of lectures and a hearty 'good luck'.

So anyway, I go sit at one of the messy lab tables and start writing.  I look up and the TA has his feet on the desk and is reading a newspaper.  I sigh and look around...

it's then that I realize that the mess on the table I'm sitting at is the complete set of minerology posters that have been taken down from the lab in anticipation of the test.  

I don't think it actually mattered though.  The final score for the class (IMO) was if you were there on the same days as the prof, you got an 'A', if not, you got a 'C'.

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Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2011,08:40   

On a somewhat brighter note, I had two pieces in this year's All Student Art Show at school

Ceci n'est pas une pomme.



and Alcyone Bathes



A third piece, a still life called "Lust", didn't make the cut. :(

On the upside:

I won Best of Show



The show was jurored by Anne Brennan, acting director of the Cameron Art Museum. These were her written comments:

 
Quote
Immediately attracted to William Tell reference and bodily expression of the subject. Is he staring at a drawn bow and arrow? He's anxious! I'm anxious for him! Then to discover the humorous title and reference to Magritte - what a lovely surprise for this viewer! I laughed right out loud alone with the work!!! Well conceived, executed and presented! And the lighting even reminiscent of a different time and age, although a contemporary subject - nice play between...


The piece gets bought by the Ann Flack Boseman Gallery and added to the permanent collection which is on display in the University Union and the Student Center.

I'm really proud of this, and had to share it with all both of you who hadn't yet heard me bragging incessantly about it since the show's opening on Thursday night.

Edited by Lou FCD on Feb. 20 2011,09:44

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2011,11:22   

Quote
I'm really proud of this, and had to share it with all both of you who hadn't yet heard me bragging incessantly about it since the show's opening on Thursday night.


Well congratulations!  And don't forget to thank all the little people that made it possible*...

Please send duplicate awards to (in no particular order)
J-Dog
Wes
Carlson & Carlson's "horses"
Arden & Arden's Mum
Louis & Louis's Mum, and Louis Jr.
Richard and richardthughes
DaveScot & David Springer
Janie Bell & Corporal Kate
Ras
k.e.
Maya
Khan
BWE
Wolfhound
Amadan
Afarensis
et al

And remember!  None of this would have possible without the extreme stupidity and total assholiness of Dr. Dr. William A Dembski and the total nuts at UD that have kept us and you amused, inspiring you to get in touch with all your inner wierdness and talent, and blasted you forth to exceed the normal probability bounds of awesomeness!

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2011,14:16   

Bravo, sir, bravo.

Though to me the subject looks more resigned to his fate than fearful.

Soon to be a major motion picture starring William H. Macy. :-)

edit minor typo.

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"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2011,14:55   

Nice work Lou! Way to go on the Renaissance Man front.

Louis

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Bye.

  
paragwinn



Posts: 539
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2011,18:36   

Congratulations!!

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All women build up a resistance [to male condescension]. Apparently, ID did not predict that. -Kristine 4-19-11
F/Ns to F/Ns to F/Ns etc. The whole thing is F/N ridiculous -Seversky on KF footnote fetish 8-20-11
Sigh. Really Bill? - Barry Arrington

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2011,18:45   

Quote (J-Dog @ Feb. 20 2011,12:22)
 
Quote
I'm really proud of this, and had to share it with all both of you who hadn't yet heard me bragging incessantly about it since the show's opening on Thursday night.


Well congratulations!  And don't forget to thank all the little people that made it possible*...

Please send duplicate awards to (in no particular order)
J-Dog
Wes
Carlson & Carlson's "horses"
Arden & Arden's Mum
Louis & Louis's Mum, and Louis Jr.
Richard and richardthughes
DaveScot & David Springer
Janie Bell & Corporal Kate
Ras
k.e.
Maya
Khan
BWE
Wolfhound
Amadan
Afarensis
et al

And remember!  None of this would have possible without the extreme stupidity and total assholiness of Dr. Dr. William A Dembski and the total nuts at UD that have kept us and you amused, inspiring you to get in touch with all your inner wierdness and talent, and blasted you forth to exceed the normal probability bounds of awesomeness!

Man, I can barely even begin to describe the web of links between those two photos and that list of people.

I followed a link from the Bad Astronomer (as I recall) one day to this place called The Panda's Thumb, where I learned about a little place called Dover and a TARD named Dembski.

I wound up here, and took a challenge from Arden a bit too seriously. JanieBelle was born and met a guy named DaveScot, who balked a bit and Kate was born. It was the girls who got the uh... creative juices... flowing. I realized I enjoyed creative writing, and I learned a bit of biology.

The girls met a girl named Kristine, and told her about this place. (This becomes important later.) A lot of other names on that list were fans and visitors to the girls' blogs.

I wound up going back to college, where I studied biology because of the attacks on science from the likes of Dembski and DaveScot, and while there began to take my writing (creative and otherwise) more seriously. It was a school project for a literature and writing class that got me to take my photography more seriously.

It was the encouragement of people like you, J-Dog, when you wrote things like this, that kept me going when school seemed like it would get the better of me. That one particular comment sticks with me to this day, by the way. Interestingly, I'm giving a presentation tomorrow morning on the legalities and history of creationism in American schools for my Religion v. Evolution senior seminar, and a lot of my presentation will draw from that very blog post.

The self-portrait above was taken in a moment of goofing around as an homage to Magritte because of a Facebook conversation I'd just had with Teh Witch. Then I was discussing Magritte and that conversation with my best friend in the grocery store, and she bought me the apple just for that reason. The best friend, please note, is the beautiful woman pictured above - in a horse trough, as it turns out. (Hellllooooo completely gratuitous Carlson reference!) I met said best friend in my Botany class last Spring.

Along the way I may or may not have taken a drunken ride on Louis' mum. That's really neither here nor there, but I figured I'd throw that in for lulz.

There are several threads in that web I have to keep to myself, too. It's a very tangled bank. :)

So in a very real, though slightly indirect way, I am where I am, doing what I'm doing, Biology and Art, because of Dembski and his creobot bffs. When I'm on the international lecture circuit and the NY Times best-seller list getting paid the big bucks to humiliate them very publicly and utterly mercilessly, they'll have no one to blame but themselves. In my spare time, I'll be taking award-winning nude photos of beautiful people. Oh, the irony of justice. It's almost enough to make me believe in Karma.

     
Quote (Louis @ Feb. 20 2011,15:55)
Nice work Lou! Way to go on the Renaissance Man front.

Louis


Seriously though, not to get all sappy or anything, but thanks. Right now, I really do feel like I can do it all, and do it all well. It's kind of satisfying to hear stuff like that.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2011,18:54   

Quote (fnxtr @ Feb. 20 2011,15:16)
Bravo, sir, bravo.

Though to me the subject looks more resigned to his fate than fearful.

Soon to be a major motion picture starring William H. Macy. :-)

edit minor typo.

Thanks! :)

Really? Hmm.. interestingly, you're the first to see it that way, but it's cool that the same image can have different meanings and effects on different people.

I'm just happy that it has any effect on anyone. :)

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 21 2011,18:55   

Quote (paragwinn @ Feb. 21 2011,19:36)
Congratulations!!

Thank yeh, thank y'ver much.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2011,06:26   

Remember to tell us how the talk went later today.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
fusilier



Posts: 252
Joined: Feb. 2003

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 22 2011,07:17   

Congratulations for the accomplishment!

--------------
fusilier
James 2:24

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 23 2011,00:17   

Thanks, fusilier!
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Feb. 22 2011,07:26)
Remember to tell us how the talk went later today.


The talk went well. The way the course is set up, the rest of the semester consists of two students giving a presentation each week that serve as springboards for discussions for that week. My instructor and I had decided that there was a lot of material to for me to cover, and that it might serve as a good backdrop for everyone else's presentations, so I went first and got both time slots for today.

Even so, there's just so much material that's important and relevant to understanding how we got where we are today that it would never all fit. I did the best I could to hit the highlights.

The other advantage for the class is that my broad overview introduced a lot of topics that could give some of the students who are less familiar with the subject ideas for their own, perhaps more specific, topics. Someone may have been interested today by something I said about Behe, for instance, and give their presentation on his role in the IDC movement, or cover the Dover trial, or (god forbid) the bacterial flagellum and "irreducible complexity".

My instructor took a moment in the hall before class to let me know that several students have approached her over the last few weeks about me. My first thought was, "BUT I HAVEN'T EVEN BEEN THAT STRIDENT!!!! yet." (Seriously, I've made a point to stay within the boundaries of the course, as instructed. It chafes a little some days, but I've stayed within the rules - no going after religion more generally.)

haha, it turns out that they "are a little intimidated" by my knowledge of the subject matter. I promised her I'd be gentle with them. :) It was pretty cool to hear her say she told each of them to jump right in and that I was probably more well-informed and up-to-date on the topic than she was. While I would find that a bit unsettling in any other type of class, this is a seminar that she's deliberately set up in such a way that we all come to the table as equals (well, except that at the end of the day, she's still giving the grades...) This is my first seminar, so I don't know if they're all set up that way, but hanging out here for the past 5+ years means I'm pretty comfortable.

Discussion afterward traveled along a few different threads, but mostly centered generally around how this all relates to the reasons evolution gets short shrift in U.S. high school classrooms today. Several students approached me after class to say they found the history very interesting. My instructor emailed me to say "Great job!"... and also I forgot to give her a hard copy of my bibliography. :/ whoops. (She said to just email her a copy, and I did.)

I don't know if anyone would find it useful or interesting, but I'd be happy to make my PowerPoint available if anyone does.

Edited by Lou FCD on Feb. 23 2011,01:24

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2012,08:30   

So I entered three pieces for this year's All Student Art Show. I was thinking I had more time before the submission deadline and was caught up short with the piece I really wanted to do. There was no way I could get that done in time, so here's what I entered:

Is There A Problem, Mister?



And here it is framed, a deviation from my usual minimalist taste



I really broke my ass to get that one done in under 24 hours so I could get it to the printer/framer's. I thought it was the best of the three, and had a real shot at winning something.

It got rejected, and didn't even show.

I thought this one might have an outside shot at an honorable mention:
Yes, Officer?



Apparently, humor was not enough to carry it, and it too got rejected and did not show.

I liked this one, but didn't think it would do anything at the show:
Do You Ever Get The Feeling You're Being Watched?



Turns out I may be a half-decent photographer, but I'm a shitty art critic.



What the hell do I know?



--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2012,12:11   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 26 2012,08:30)
Turns out I may be a half-decent photographer, but I'm a shitty art critic.

There are certain expectations for an academic art exhibit, and one I've seen a fair amount and may have had an influence is "rejection of the commercial". If it has to do with commerce or an aesthetic that is common in commerce, then it won't go far with an academic judge who has this in mind. That would explain why your first two images would go nowhere.

Back in my undergraduate days, I took several photography courses through the college of fine arts. My paid job at the time was as a staff photographer for the school newspaper. Some days I would be "on call", and the voice pager was the latest technology for putting editors in touch with photographers. One such day, I was sitting in on a graduate seminar being given by Jerry N. Uelsmann, the most prominent photographer on the faculty. There were maybe eighteen people in attendance. He was in fine form, giving a lecture on how photojournalism was killing the art of photography. Of course, before the end of class happened, my pager went off. Our most excitable editor's voice clearly carried across the room, going on about a reporter needing my photographic services at a particular place on campus, and get there ASAP. The longest part of the walk was the ten feet to the door of the lecture room.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2012,14:04   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Feb. 26 2012,13:11)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 26 2012,08:30)
Turns out I may be a half-decent photographer, but I'm a shitty art critic.

There are certain expectations for an academic art exhibit, and one I've seen a fair amount and may have had an influence is "rejection of the commercial". If it has to do with commerce or an aesthetic that is common in commerce, then it won't go far with an academic judge who has this in mind. That would explain why your first two images would go nowhere.

Ah, well that's something I hadn't thought about, thanks for bringing that to my attention. Of course, unless grad students are eligible wherever I end up, this is my last academic art show.

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Feb. 26 2012,13:11)
Back in my undergraduate days, I took several photography courses through the college of fine arts. My paid job at the time was as a staff photographer for the school newspaper. Some days I would be "on call", and the voice pager was the latest technology for putting editors in touch with photographers. One such day, I was sitting in on a graduate seminar being given by Jerry N. Uelsmann, the most prominent photographer on the faculty. There were maybe eighteen people in attendance. He was in fine form, giving a lecture on how photojournalism was killing the art of photography. Of course, before the end of class happened, my pager went off. Our most excitable editor's voice clearly carried across the room, going on about a reporter needing my photographic services at a particular place on campus, and get there ASAP. The longest part of the walk was the ten feet to the door of the lecture room.


lol, I can just imagine! I really wish I could figure out a way to squeeze in some actual photography classes. On the other hand, the intro photo classes seem to be about developing film in a darkroom, and as interesting as that topic might be, it's not what I'm looking for.

The local camera shop holds weekly classes in a commercial setting, but frankly, having conversed on numerous occasions with the guys who work there, I'm not at all confident that my $30/class would be well-spent.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
fusilier



Posts: 252
Joined: Feb. 2003

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2012,09:48   

[quote=Wesley R. Elsberry,Feb. 26 2012,13:11]
Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 26 2012,08:30)
{snip}

Back in my undergraduate days, I took several photography courses through the college of fine arts. My paid job at the time was as a staff photographer for the school newspaper. Some days I would be "on call", and the voice pager was the latest technology for putting editors in touch with photographers. One such day, I was sitting in on a graduate seminar being given by Jerry N. Uelsmann, the most prominent photographer on the faculty. There were maybe eighteen people in attendance. He was in fine form, giving a lecture on how photojournalism was killing the art of photography. Of course, before the end of class happened, my pager went off. Our most excitable editor's voice clearly carried across the room, going on about a reporter needing my photographic services at a particular place on campus, and get there ASAP. The longest part of the walk was the ten feet to the door of the lecture room.

hehehe

Reminds me of the First Law:  "TriX, f/8, and be there.

--------------
fusilier
James 2:24

  
Robin



Posts: 1431
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2012,10:19   

Hey! Congrats Lou! Those look great!

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we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed.  Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2012,11:52   

Quote (Robin @ Feb. 27 2012,11:19)
Hey! Congrats Lou! Those look great!

Thanks, Robin!

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Kattarina98



Posts: 1267
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2012,12:04   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 26 2012,08:30)
Do You Ever Get The Feeling You're Being Watched?



Congratulations!

This is my favourite.

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Barry Arrington is a bitch.

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2012,13:01   

My wife being an artist and all, I've been to way more than my fair share of art openings.  No matter what the judges write on their results page, they know what will win, place, and show within about 2 minutes of touring the works.

Art, as I'm sure you know, is purely subjective.  See, for me the first two pieces are more interesting in terms of subject matter.  There's obviously a story that could be told about those.  On the other hand, there's little technical brilliance.  The gator on the other hand, is technically brilliant.  The out-of-focus areas are useful in highlighting the detail and the totally off-center focal point... well, my wife would say it's excellent.

You got a judge that was interested in the technical details vs. the subject.

Like I said, I've been through way too many judging processes... and as someone who isn't actually involved in the art, I get a real behind the scenes view sometimes.  

Anyway, congrats.  I'll shut up now.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2012,16:20   

10Q berry muy mucho.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2012,19:17   

Beautiful.  Congratulations.  The croc's not bad either.
:)

Way to go dude.

Edited by J-Dog on Feb. 28 2012,19:18

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 29 2012,17:16   

Quote (J-Dog @ Feb. 28 2012,20:17)
Beautiful.  Congratulations.  The croc's not bad either.
:)

Way to go dude.

lol thanks!

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 01 2012,21:49   

Wow! Congratulations! :)

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 05 2012,06:01   

Quote (Kristine @ Mar. 01 2012,22:49)
Wow! Congratulations! :)

Thanks!

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
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