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Acartia_Bogart Posts: 2927 Joined: Sep. 2014 (Permalink) Posted: May 02 2016,08:06    Quote CLAVDIVS May 2, 2016 at 6:35 am kairosfocus I don’t pretend you’re barely literate. You are one of the worst writers of English I have ever had the misfortune to read. Why don’t you do a course on writing concisely and lucidly – there are lots online. Your alleged “response” @ 248 completely misses the point. You burble on about moral precepts like stable family structure, commitment and child welfare. But Girgis et al do not claim gay relationships are any less stable, committed or suitable for child-rearing. The only difference between gay and straight that Girgis et al point to is child-bearing capacity which is not a moral precept, it is a factual state of affairs. Claiming a factual state of affairs entails a moral obligation to maintain that state of affairs is a classic instance of the naturalistic fallacy. QED Edited by stevestory on May 02 2016,11:58

LarTanner Posts: 36 Joined: Dec. 2015 (Permalink) Posted: May 02 2016,09:52    Quote (Acartia_Bogart @ May 02 2016,08:06) Quote CLAVDIVS May 2, 2016 at 6:35 am kairosfocus I don’t pretend you’re barely literate. You are one of the worst writers of English I have ever had the misfortune to read. Why don’t you do a course on writing concisely and lucidly – there are lots online. Your alleged “response” @ 248 completely misses the point. You burble on about moral precepts like stable family structure, commitment and child welfare. But Girgis et al do not claim gay relationships are any less stable, committed or suitable for child-rearing. The only difference between gay and straight that Girgis et al point to is child-bearing capacity which is not a moral precept, it is a factual state of affairs. Claiming a factual state of affairs entails a moral obligation to maintain that state of affairs is a classic instance of the naturalistic fallacy. QED For my money, Denyse O'Leary is a far worse writer. Everything she posts is some folksy inside joke. Her snide tone is intelligible, but her precise meaning is never. KF is a long-winded and obscure writer, yes, but he thinks his every comment should be the last word on the matter. He re-revises and expands on the same content he's been posting for years because he thinks eventually the evo mat alinskyite agit prop stalins-in-lab-coats and enabling fellow travelers will have no choice but to admit that he and Plato have been right all along. The way to read KF is to ignore all the extra words he packs on. So, when he writes this:   Quote The manipulation of marriage under false colour of law is a reflection and extension of a trend of socio-cultural decay that in turn reflects the fundamental breakdown of moral principle in our civilisation. Our civilisation is on a slippery slope, headed for the cliffs, in a march of folly. One that may already have passed the point of no return. just focus on a few choice noun phrases:   Quote ...socio-cultural decay... breakdown of moral[s]...slippery slope...point of no return. Essentially, he's complaining that no one buys the kind of BS he's so fond of. This is the entirety of his deal. Edited by stevestory on May 02 2016,11:59

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 02 2016,11:03    I'm expecting Aleta and CLAVDIVS to be banned any minute. They're really tearing KF multiple new orifices with the kind of construction equipment National Geographic does hour-long features on.

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 02 2016,11:06    Quote 528 ziggy lorencMay 2, 2016 at 8:29 am KF — “ZL, refusal on your part to examine or take seriously facts, reasoning and relevant worldviews analysis does not constitute want of evidence as presented and linked.” There is that willingness to engage in fair and open discussion that we have come to know and love in KF. KF, obviously you are incapable of listening to other people’s opinions and views without resorting to a patronizing and arrogant tone. If you were one of my children, you would receive a good mouth soaping. I disagree with StephenB and Phinehas and Mr. Murray, and they are capable of responding in a civil manner. If you can’t do this, maybe it is time for you to seek other avenues of communication. linky

Acartia_Bogart Posts: 2927 Joined: Sep. 2014 (Permalink) Posted: May 02 2016,11:07    Quote ziggy lorencMay 2, 2016 at 8:29 am KF — “ZL, refusal on your part to examine or take seriously facts, reasoning and relevant worldviews analysis does not constitute want of evidence as presented and linked.” There is that willingness to engage in fair and open discussion that we have come to know and love in KF. KF, obviously you are incapable of listening to other people’s opinions and views without resorting to a patronizing and arrogant tone. <b>If you were one of my children, you would receive a good mouth soaping.</b> I disagree with StephenB and Phinehas and Mr. Murray, and they are capable of responding in a civil manner. If you can’t do this, maybe it is time for you to seek other avenues of communication. Now, there is an image that will be hard to get out of your head.

Acartia_Bogart Posts: 2927 Joined: Sep. 2014 (Permalink) Posted: May 02 2016,11:08    Quote (Acartia_Bogart @ May 02 2016,11:07) Quote ziggy lorencMay 2, 2016 at 8:29 am KF — “ZL, refusal on your part to examine or take seriously facts, reasoning and relevant worldviews analysis does not constitute want of evidence as presented and linked.” There is that willingness to engage in fair and open discussion that we have come to know and love in KF. KF, obviously you are incapable of listening to other people’s opinions and views without resorting to a patronizing and arrogant tone. <b>If you were one of my children, you would receive a good mouth soaping.</b> I disagree with StephenB and Phinehas and Mr. Murray, and they are capable of responding in a civil manner. If you can’t do this, maybe it is time for you to seek other avenues of communication. Now, there is an image that will be hard to get out of your head. Damn, SteveStory beat me by one minute.

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 02 2016,11:46

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 02 2016,11:52    Quote 46 ZachrielMay 2, 2016 at 9:39 am Origenes: And what are those scientific reasons for this rejection? The primary problems with a scientific claim of “intelligence as a cause” of life are the lack of specified mechanisms, and the lack of testable entailments. Quote 47 OrigenesMay 2, 2016 at 10:30 am Zachriel, What are the specified mechanisms and testable entailments of intelligent design as cause of the Antikythera mechanism, Stonehenge, an extraterrestrial artificial signal or the Mona Lisa? Quote 48 ZachrielMay 2, 2016 at 10:41 am Origenes: What are the specified mechanisms and testable entailments of intelligent design as cause of the Antikythera mechanism, Stonehenge, an extraterrestrial artificial signal or the Mona Lisa? The Antikythera mechanism was found in a Roman shipwreck, is made of bronze, had Greek inscriptions, and included a cycle for the Olympiads. Let’s venture a guess that it was manufactured by a peculiar form of ape that was prevalent at the time in that area of the planet Earth, who are known to have worked in brass, to have had a great interest in the movements of the planets, and held regular athletic competitions. Need we go on? Do you want a citation to a study of Greek bronze-working? Zachriel is all outta Bubble Gum. Edited by stevestory on May 02 2016,12:53

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 02 2016,13:46    Quote 541 AletaMay 2, 2016 at 12:09 pm kf writes, Quote You may be trying a baiting game to say see he is quoting Bible and can be tossed as spouting religious drivel. In fact, you will see that I have primarily spoken to worldview, ethics/justice and policy issues i/l/o ideologies, agendas and implications. Howbeit as you seem to want to know how I would find a specifically Christian basis that rules out attempted homosexualisation of marriage. The first two sentences are pretty incomprehensible to me. And no, I have no interest in knowing how you would provide a “specifically Christian basis that rules out attempted homosexualisation of marriage.” My point is that lots of other Christians disagree with you, and thus would disagree with the conclusions you draw from the Bible verses you offer. Your argument is with them, not me, as I don’t consider the Bible an authority on anything. Quote 542 PaVMay 2, 2016 at 12:15 pm Alaeta: You haven’t responded to my last post. The resolution to the questions I’ve asked is this: law ought to legislate that which is morally good and right. Lawmakers do NOT have the right to contradict God’s Law, written in our hearts, because God is the Law-Giver, not man. This, in fact, is the revolt we see taking place in society. And it will destroy us. We will have ‘hell’ to pay for. Quote 543 AletaMay 2, 2016 at 12:32 pm PaV writes, Quote Lawmakers do NOT have the right to contradict God’s Law, written in our hearts, because God is the Law-Giver, not man. No, that is not a principle upon which our country is based. linky Edited by stevestory on May 02 2016,14:47

Acartia_Bogart Posts: 2927 Joined: Sep. 2014 (Permalink) Posted: May 02 2016,17:33    I don't want to get scooped by SteveStorey again. Quote ziggy lorencMay 2, 2016 at 4:19 pm V responding to KF– “You still have not made a very convincing argument why two 60 year old lesbians getting legally married in any way contributes to moral decay or why it is any of your [damned] business.” With a slight modification, and pardon my language, these are probably the wisest and truest words I have heard in this 500+ comment thread. When it comes right down to it, this is the reason that I can’t get worked up about SSM. Because it has no negative impact on me, my loved ones, or society, it is none of my business. The world would be a much better place if the self-righteous would concentrate on their own behaviour and stop worrying about what consenting adults do behind closed doors.

JohnW Posts: 3217 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 03 2016,10:57    I don't think ziggy's long for UD, but she's getting her money's worth while it lasts.  This one's going to leave a mark: Quote StephenB — “You have a lot to learn about the religion you claim to embrace.” Absolutely true. Which is where you and I differ. You are certain that you know everything about the religion you claim to embrace. My stance is far more tenable. As you mature, you may gain wisdom. You certainly couldn’t lose any. -------------- Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

CeilingCat Posts: 2363 Joined: Dec. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: May 03 2016,11:16    I'm reading The Last Continent, one of the Discworld books by Terry Pratchett, and he gives a description of Wizards that I think describes the UD crowd to a Tee:   Quote A herd of self regarding village idiots.

Acartia_Bogart Posts: 2927 Joined: Sep. 2014 (Permalink) Posted: May 03 2016,12:37    Quote (JohnW @ May 03 2016,10:57) I don't think ziggy's long for UD, but she's getting her money's worth while it lasts.  This one's going to leave a mark:   Quote StephenB — “You have a lot to learn about the religion you claim to embrace.” Absolutely true. Which is where you and I differ. You are certain that you know everything about the religion you claim to embrace. My stance is far more tenable. As you mature, you may gain wisdom. You certainly couldn’t lose any. My money is on Clavdivs. Quote CLAVDIVSMay 3, 2016 at 7:54 am kairosfocus Clavdivs, do you see the setting up of a tainted strawman target to mischaracterise principled objections to the attempt to impose homosexualisation on marriage under false colours of law? I suppose you did this to bait, as you know I have Afro-Caribbean ancestry. Nope – didn’t know that. It’s irrelevant. Bait you did, your behaviour is grossly offensive and needs to be walked back . . . you have tried to taint people with racist bigotry without any proper warrant, shame on you. It’s your behaviour that’s grossly offensive — don’t try to blame me when I hold up a mirror so you can see clearly the logical consequences of your ridiculous “fellow traveller” rhetorical nonsense. You have repeatedly and viciously attacked my character and others’ as amoral and immoral. Your pretense of taking offense doesn’t fool anybody. If you continue with the “fellow traveller” rhetoric I will not refrain from reminding you that, by your logic *not mine*, someone who opposes gay marriage is a “fellow traveller” with the KKK.

KevinB Posts: 525 Joined: April 2013 (Permalink) Posted: May 03 2016,12:39    Quote (CeilingCat @ May 03 2016,11:16) I'm reading The Last Continent, one of the Discworld books by Terry Pratchett, and he gives a description of Wizards that I think describes the UD crowd to a Tee:     Quote A herd of self regarding village idiots. I'd suggest that they're more like the Clowns' Guild, who insist that all humour must conform to the Rules, and vigorously discipline failure to conform.

Jkrebs Posts: 590 Joined: Sep. 2004 (Permalink) Posted: May 03 2016,13:41    Terry Pratchett and the Discworld novels are great - glad to see that some others here like them. "Small Gods", for instance!

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 03 2016,15:43    I heart Zachriel: Quote They may have scientific value if they lead to testable hypotheses. Even ID could have scientific value, but it’s very unlikely for several reasons: ID is in all probability false; those inspired by ID rarely do any scientific research of note; and ID is fraught with fallacious reasoning. linky

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 03 2016,15:46    Quote 74 MatSpiritMay 3, 2016 at 11:16 am john_a_designer @39: “The problem at the moment is not the ID argument, as far as it goes, but the ideological blindness and political bullying of the materialists. The best argument we can make for the time being is what Tour is doing. Essentially he is asking “HOW did this evolve naturalistically?” If the Darwinian “theory” is indeed a truly scientific explanation shouldn’t its proponents be able to answer that question?” Tour isn’t asking how anything evolved. He’s claiming that a modern cell, complete with RNA, DNA and all the other internal organelles found in a modern cell, was the FIRST living thing and demanding to know how such an extraordinarily complex cell could could poof into existence through natural, non-intelligent means. Evolution proponents say that claim is ridiculous, people who actually work in the OOL field believe the first living thing was small and simple enough to form via stochastic processes and its only ability was to self-reproduce. All the gew-gaws in modern cells got there through the slow step by step process of evolution. They also wonder why an accomplished scientist like Dr. Tour doesn’t know this and, more importantly, how anybody with an ounce of responsibility could set out to “teach” OOL to others without getting such basic facts straight. I’ll betcha a bright shiney nickel that his religious beliefs were responsible. I also wonder why he didn’t “defeat science” by “proving” that mice are too complex to be produced by dirty rags, therefore Jesus. Perhaps that was too much even for him. Here’s a challenge for Professor Tour: Give your speech to an audience of actual OOL researchers. When they stop laughing, they will set you straight. New person called MatSpirit

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 03 2016,15:54    WOW. PaV: Quote I propose a simple test. If God exists, then Christianity, as a revealed religion, should assist people to properly interpret the natural law. So, if Christianity should reign in a culture, then we should see within that culture a growth in civility, ethics, education and moral behavior. Likewise, if Christianity should no longer reign in the culture, because more and more people can no longer properly interpret the Law placed in their hearts, then civility, ethics, morality and levels of education should falter. I declare this experiment to have taken place, it’s results duly noted, and that these results point to a God-based origin of morality. Just pick up a paper from the 1960’s, and compare it to today’s. Simple experiment. And most of what you’ll see, is really what you don’t see in the 60’s. Zachriel: Quote 63 Zachriel May 3, 2016 at 2:05 pm PaV: Just pick up a paper from the 1960’s, and compare it to today’s. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x.......7de.jpg Here you go Zach: Edited by stevestory on May 03 2016,16:57

CeilingCat Posts: 2363 Joined: Dec. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: May 03 2016,16:12    PaV: "So, if Christianity should reign in a culture, then we should see within that culture a growth in civility, ethics, education and moral behavior." Trumped you.

Acartia_Bogart Posts: 2927 Joined: Sep. 2014 (Permalink) Posted: May 03 2016,18:28    Quote (Acartia_Bogart @ May 03 2016,12:37) Quote (JohnW @ May 03 2016,10:57) I don't think ziggy's long for UD, but she's getting her money's worth while it lasts.  This one's going to leave a mark:   Quote StephenB — “You have a lot to learn about the religion you claim to embrace.” Absolutely true. Which is where you and I differ. You are certain that you know everything about the religion you claim to embrace. My stance is far more tenable. As you mature, you may gain wisdom. You certainly couldn’t lose any. My money is on Clavdivs. Quote CLAVDIVSMay 3, 2016 at 7:54 am kairosfocus Clavdivs, do you see the setting up of a tainted strawman target to mischaracterise principled objections to the attempt to impose homosexualisation on marriage under false colours of law? I suppose you did this to bait, as you know I have Afro-Caribbean ancestry. Nope – didn’t know that. It’s irrelevant. Bait you did, your behaviour is grossly offensive and needs to be walked back . . . you have tried to taint people with racist bigotry without any proper warrant, shame on you. It’s your behaviour that’s grossly offensive — don’t try to blame me when I hold up a mirror so you can see clearly the logical consequences of your ridiculous “fellow traveller” rhetorical nonsense. You have repeatedly and viciously attacked my character and others’ as amoral and immoral. Your pretense of taking offense doesn’t fool anybody. If you continue with the “fellow traveller” rhetoric I will not refrain from reminding you that, by your logic *not mine*, someone who opposes gay marriage is a “fellow traveller” with the KKK. OK, I am switching my bet back to Ziggy. Quote ziggy lorencMay 3, 2016 at 4:59 pm KF — “ZL, you obviously have not seriously read the thread above…” You obviously have not taken heed of the many appeals that have been made in this thread for you to stop lecturing, patronizing and sermonizing. When you post a comment that does not do this, I will respond. Until then, you are best to be ignored.

Acartia_Bogart Posts: 2927 Joined: Sep. 2014 (Permalink) Posted: May 03 2016,20:45    Indiana Effigy mentions same sex marriage at comment 18 on a W. J. Murray OP about the left's use of inflammatory terms (eg. Bigot and racist), and they are still talking about the evils of SSM and society's inevitable drive over the cliff 700 comments later.

Woodbine Posts: 1218 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: May 03 2016,21:09    WJM is just as deranged as Gaulin only he's more literate. He believes he has access to THE MIND OF GOD - but he won't share. Edited by Woodbine on May 04 2016,03:10

REC Posts: 638 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 03 2016,23:00    VJTorley"Let’s be clear what we’re talking about here. While it’s reasonably certain that the rise in global temperatures since the late 1970s has been largely man-made," O shit son, do you know DiscoTute policy on that? Barry?

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 04 2016,10:30    Quote 726 ziggy lorencMay 4, 2016 at 9:05 am KF — “You can be safely categorised as an idea and implementer hitman, in a strategic change context. In the online context, as a troll. BA77 suggests a very familiar identity resurfacing under another pseudonym.” First, I am a woman. Secondly, thank you for again providing another example of Mr. Murray’s argument about using inflammatory labels for the purpose of stifling discussion. Thirdly, to you always believe unsubstantiated accusations made by BA77? Who is William Spearshake? If you don’t like him, I get the feeling that I might. Origenes — “The continuous stream of ad hominem attacks on Ziggy Lorenc and others is hard to stomach.” Thanks for the support. Personally, I just find it embarrassing. Not for me, but for KF. Why he thinks that 6,500 words spread over several comments is going to be read by anyone is the biggest mystery. i heart ziggy lorenc

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 04 2016,10:33    Quote (REC @ May 04 2016,00:00) VJTorley"Let’s be clear what we’re talking about here. While it’s reasonably certain that the rise in global temperatures since the late 1970s has been largely man-made," O shit son, do you know DiscoTute policy on that? Barry? where'd he say that? that should be fun.

k.e.. Posts: 5432 Joined: May 2007 (Permalink) Posted: May 04 2016,11:06    Quote Who is William Spearshake? If you don’t like him, I get the feeling that I might. Priceless! OMG     Quote Why he thinks that 6,500 words spread over several comments is going to be read by anyone is the biggest mystery. *cough* only 6,500 words? That might be proportionally more words read than by the collected readers of Shakespeare. -------------- "I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit "ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus "I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

Acartia_Bogart Posts: 2927 Joined: Sep. 2014 (Permalink) Posted: May 04 2016,13:12    Quote (k.e.. @ May 04 2016,11:06) Quote Who is William Spearshake? If you don’t like him, I get the feeling that I might. Priceless! OMG     Quote Why he thinks that 6,500 words spread over several comments is going to be read by anyone is the biggest mystery. *cough* only 6,500 words? That might be proportionally more words read than by the collected readers of Shakespeare. And just as indecipherable.

REC Posts: 638 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 04 2016,15:24    Quote (stevestory @ May 04 2016,10:33) Quote (REC @ May 04 2016,00:00) VJTorley"Let’s be clear what we’re talking about here. While it’s reasonably certain that the rise in global temperatures since the late 1970s has been largely man-made," O shit son, do you know DiscoTute policy on that? Barry? where'd he say that? that should be fun. http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....my-take

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 04 2016,17:03    Quote 738 PhinehasMay 4, 2016 at 3:46 pm Aleta: Quote Many children in single parent families have no active father, or one they see seldom. Hopefully they have other male role models, but that is the same for same-sex couples. Would you not agree that single-parent families are not optimal and should be avoided in favor of two-parent families where possible? Quote 739 PhinehasMay 4, 2016 at 3:51 pm Z: Quote No, we value truth over falsity. Why? Does Phinehas think this idiocy is clever?

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 04 2016,17:05    Lots of people at UD seem to think: 1) Do 'clever' word game 2) ??? 3) Evolutionary science collapses! The underwear gnomes had a better business plan.

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