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  Topic: Will a "Gay Gene" Refute Evolution?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 05 2006,07:19   

Quote (GCT @ April 05 2006,12:16)
I thought that was Big Gay Al.  Or was Gene the name of Stan's gay dog?

Yes, it is Big Gay Al. I was making a dumb joke. Yeesh, way to wreck it...   :p

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Russell



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Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 05 2006,07:54   

Quote
There is new talk of a "gay gene" being profferred by "scientists."
Is there? Where?

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Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

  
J. G. Cox



Posts: 38
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 05 2006,08:32   

All traits have both genetic and environmental components; this includes behavioral traits. Sometimes, one or the other seems much more important than the other. For instance, how many heads you have is almost entirely controlled by genes, though certain environmental factors (e.g., not too little food meaning you have none and are dead, or environmental toxins which interfere with development giving you 2) could still exert some influence. Almost all traits are also influenced by more than one gene locus. That is why it is usually incorrent to speak of 'a gene' for something. What is usually meant is that a particular allele of a given gene affects the probability that a given organism will have one value of a trait versus another. Usually, there are multiple genes for which different alleles may affect the same trait.

 So, would the existence of certain alleles that increase the likelihood that their carriers are homosexual disprove evolution? First, there is the point that pretty much no one datum or result could disprove evolutionary theory at this point, but that is a topic for another thread. The basic objection would seem to be that such alleles should reduce fitness, and therefore be selected against. This is an interesting question, in fact, as that is part of why some researchers are investigating it. (Notice that they are doing actual research into an interesting evolutionary conundrum, not simply making assertions about its potential implications). Researchers search for alleles influencing homosexuality because it is extremely unlikely that this trait is entirely a consequence of environment.

 Let's assume that alleles for homosexuality do in fact reduce fitness. In an evolutionary framework, that would make such alleles a sort of genetic disease. Notice that classifying such alleles as deleterious and 'disease-causing' requires accepting an evolutionary framework. However, our definitions of disease do not correspond to what natural selection might select against. For example, brain tissue is extremely metabolically expensive; in food-limited situations, having too much brain matter could easily lead to reduced fitness, or even early death. In that case, would we declare intelligence to be a disease? Another example; I don't want to have children, which greatly reduces my fitness; am I diseased? Thus, sociological attacks against homosexuality based on it being a 'disease' i.) require acceptance of evolution, and ii.) are guilty of the same logical fallacy as social Darwinism

  Let's still assume that alleles which promote homosexuality impose a fitness cost. Why might such alleles persist? Evolutionary theory gives some indication of where to look. One mechanism which might maintain such alleles is persistent mutation of wild-type alleles into mutant type, in this case one promoting homosexuality. In instances where the mutational pathway from wild-type to a particular mutant allele is short and/or probable (e.g., a single point mutation), then selection and mutation can maintain the deleterious mutants at non-trivial frequencies in a population. Another reason why such alleles might persist is simply that natural selection hasn't eliminated them yet. Remember, natural selection is simply an adjustment of the probability distribution governing the fates of different alleles; it is not wholly deterministic. Natural selection is also a continuing process, and just because a given alleles hasn't yet achieved fixation or has not been wholly eliminated does not mean that natural selection is not acting on it.

  However, we cannot simply assume that alleles which promote homosexuality do in fact reduce fitness. This is where some of the research that others have pointed to in this thread comes in. Again, evolutionary theory tells us where we should be looking for answers. One possibility is that such alleles might increase inclusive fitness; this is also known as kin selection. Thus, having alleles which promote homosexuality might decrease one's own reproductive output, but might increase that of one's relatives. For instance, a homosexual male might contribute more to raising the offpsring of his sisters and mother than a heterosexual male, or might be less likely to be run off or killed by the dominant male in his social group (thus thus better able to help his relative reproduce). Unfortunately, this is very hard to test because i.) we cannot directly observe the ecological and social conditions under which our ancestors evolved and ii.) doing the appropriate experiments with humans would be considered highly unethical.

 Another important point is to remember that natural selection acts on the average fitness derived from having a certain trait or allele. If having alleles which promote homosexuality on average improves fitness, then we would expect to see them in a population, at least at some frequency. This ties in to research which showed the increased reproduction of female relatives of gay men. If the increase in fitness for the females is equal to or greater than the decrease in fitness for the males carrying the alleles, then such alleles would spread in the population.

  In summary, the presence of alleles which promote homosexuality would not constitue a 'problem for evolution' for two reasons. First, modern evolutionary theory predicts the presence of some deleterious alleles within a population. Second, we have no idea if such alleles are actually deleterious.

  
J. G. Cox



Posts: 38
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 05 2006,08:40   

I should also emphasize that evolutionary theory gives many potential research directions for the question at hand. Does kin selection play a role? Is homosexuality in fact deleterious? Is frequency-dependent selection occurring? Should sex ratio affect allele frequency? Could different social structures influence selection for and against such alleles? Etc.

 Intelligent design 'theory,' however,' proposes nothing. Either this 'aspect of the universe' was designed or not. If not, then we turn to evolution for explanations. If so, then we can't do any more research because we aren't allowed to know anything about the Designer. Science stops where ID begins.

  
The Ghost of Paley



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Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 05 2006,09:09   

J. G. Cox wrote:
Quote
I should also emphasize that evolutionary theory gives many potential research directions for the question at hand.

Except for the most important one: would evolutionary theory predict a "gay gene"? Or any other gene for that matter? Why must Darwinism wait for verification of an entity's existence before lauching its research program? Shouldn't evolutionary psychology or the ever-so-mathematically-cogent field of population genetics provide a predictive model for what changes are possible? But no, after real scientists make the discoveries, evos rush in, chisels in hand, and announce a new field to "tackle". It's easy to give answers when nothing's at stake.......but you get what you pay for.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Arden Chatfield



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 05 2006,09:13   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ April 05 2006,14:09)
J. G. Cox wrote:
Quote
I should also emphasize that evolutionary theory gives many potential research directions for the question at hand.

Except for the most important one: would evolutionary theory predict a "gay gene"? Or any other gene for that matter? Why must Darwinism wait for verification of an entity's existence before lauching its research program? Shouldn't evolutionary psychology or the ever-so-mathematically-cogent field of population genetics provide a predictive model for what changes are possible? But no, after real scientists make the discoveries, evos rush in, chisels in hand, and announce a new field to "tackle". It's easy to give answers when nothing's at stake.......but you get what you pay for.

Well, I see G.O. Paley is back, but since his mood is no better than before, his 'vacation' must not have been very restful...

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
jeannot



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(Permalink) Posted: April 05 2006,09:20   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ April 05 2006,11:26)
Quote
A friend of mine, who is homosexual, has a twin brother (is that English?)


Yes, that's perfectly grammatical, not to worry.

Quote
who is not.
And this is easily noticeable from their manners.

My two cents.


You're talking about an identical twin, I assume?

Yes I am.

  
J. G. Cox



Posts: 38
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 05 2006,09:45   

Quote
Except for the most important one: would evolutionary theory predict a "gay gene"?


 No, it would not, because (as far as we know) mutations are random. Thus, just because some trait might affect fitness does not affect that probability that that trait will arise; it simply means that if it does, then the probable fate of that trait will be determined by its fitness influence.

 If you can come up with a way to predict mutations (not just differential probabilities of transitions versus transversions), then you have just scored yourself a Nobel. In any case, that would be incorporated right into evolutionary theory because evolution, like all scientific theories, is amenable to adjustment as new information is obtained.

 ID, however, seems amenable to adjustment only as the political and legal climate changes.

  
The Ghost of Paley



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Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 05 2006,12:45   

Quote
No, it would not, because (as far as we know) mutations are random. Thus, just because some trait might affect fitness does not affect that probability that that trait will arise; it simply means that if it does, then the probable fate of that trait will be determined by its fitness influence.

Well, I'm talking about the likelihood of natural selection preserving a particular mutation, not the odds of the mutation arising in the first place. So why can't evolution derive a probability distribution of this "fitness influence"?
Quote
If you can come up with a way to predict mutations (not just differential probabilities of transitions versus transversions), then you have just scored yourself a Nobel. In any case, that would be incorporated right into evolutionary theory because evolution, like all scientific theories, is amenable to adjustment as new information is obtained.

Geneticists should worry about the mutation part; it's the evos responsibility to describe the other half of the RM & NS expression. Their inability to do so is one reason why evolution gets scant attention in medical textbooks. Retrodiction only goes so far, especially when people's health is on the line.
Quote
ID, however, seems amenable to adjustment only as the political and legal climate changes.

We were the ones who saw the value in "junk" DNA, and the danger in assuming that retroviruses randomly insert themselves in the genome. But then cleaning up after Darwin is a full time job.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
sir_toejam



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(Permalink) Posted: April 05 2006,13:53   

Quote
So why can't evolution derive a probability distribution of this "fitness influence"?


Actually, you stumbled on a very interesting current area of reseach.  short answer: they have done this, in the lab.

Wes posted some articles relating to this a month or so ago.

scroll back and check them out, or ask Wes.

as to what can be done in the field; selective pressures are extremely variable in most instances, and #### near impossible to account for every current and potential pressure on a specific trait, let alone traits that might be linked, without some serious controls in place.

It makes it very difficult to calculate exact probabilites like you want, but there are folks out there trying to do that very thing.

why don't you spend some time at your local university library and check it out.

oh wait, that's right.  Based on your past posts about the inadequacies of cladistics, I'd say your reading comprehension is not sufficient to the task.

oh well, you could always try anyway.  ####, you might learn something.

  
The Ghost of Paley



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(Permalink) Posted: April 05 2006,14:31   

Quote
It makes it very difficult to calculate exact probabilites like you want, but there are folks out there trying to do that very thing.

why don't you spend some time at your local university library and check it out.

And what predictions have they made? Take your time - it's an important question.
Quote
oh wait, that's right.  Based on your past posts about the inadequacies of cladistics, I'd say your reading comprehension is not sufficient to the task.

oh well, you could always try anyway.  ####, you might learn something.

Even Mr. Brazeau conceded that several of his earlier criticisms of Arnason et al. were refuted in the literature, although this didn't prevent him from launching several more. And the fact that Arnason's work suffers from flaws does not erase the more egregious problems in the research Brazeau cited, which supports my earlier complaint of phylogenetic unreliability. But being such an expert thinker on all things fishy, I'm sure you were already aware of that. ;)

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
sir_toejam



Posts: 846
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 05 2006,14:59   

Quote
Even Mr. Brazeau conceded that several of his earlier criticisms of Arnason et al. were refuted in the literature,


but not any of the ones raised by you, nor were any of the objections raised by you logical or relevant.

face it, everyone here agrees you were completely shredded there, except you of course.

that says a lot about your ability to reason.

Quote
And what predictions have they made? Take your time - it's an important question.


As usual, I'm not gonna do your work for you.  You're simply not worth more than a sidenote to any lurkers that the issue is worth investigating.

Quote
why don't you spend some time at your local university library and check it out.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 05 2006,15:40   

Quote
but not any of the ones raised by you, nor were any of the objections raised by you logical or relevant.

Um, who was the one who cited, summarised, and highlighted the points in the offending study? As for your second point, the very length of the thread says something about the scientific relevance of my objections. At least it's a better indicator than "Dood, you were really shredded. 9 out of 10 hyenas agree!"  :D
Quote
As usual, I'm not gonna do your work for you.  You're simply not worth more than a sidenote to any lurkers that the issue is worth investigating.

Paley's translation for the lurkers: "I don't have a clue, dood." So does evolution predict a gay gene or not? Supporting reasoning/evidence would be nice.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
thordaddy



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(Permalink) Posted: April 05 2006,18:17   

Or, does evolution predict a collection of genes that will defy evolution?  Isn't this the nature of homosexuality?

  
avocationist



Posts: 173
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(Permalink) Posted: April 05 2006,19:03   

Quote
No, it would not, because (as far as we know) mutations are random. Thus, just because some trait might affect fitness does not affect that probability that that trait will arise;
If you can come up with a way to predict mutations (not just differential probabilities of transitions versus transversions), then you have just scored yourself a Nobel.


And yet, it must have some logical pattern. Else, how to account for the amazing similarity between marsupial and placental animals.

  
thordaddy



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(Permalink) Posted: April 05 2006,19:37   

It seems to me that when we look at homosexuality, lesbianism, abortion, suicide and euthanasia, we see phenomenon that purposely defy evolution.  If each of these phenomenon were genetically-related then a "self-destruct" gene would seemed to have evolved at evolution's own design.

  
avocationist



Posts: 173
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 05 2006,20:04   

Chris,

Quote
The weasel program was meant to demonstrate cumulative selection not evolution.
Yes, but without deciding the end result at the beginning, blind forces might never get there.

The whole question of search space is an interesting one, because we may not really know the factors that would help to narrow down the search. When certain evolution detractors have put forth what would appear to be the search space, the possibility of a solution to this or that problem is often quite out of reach, no matter how many e coli you have working for you. Problem is, organizing factors or emergent properties all seem to change the nature of our universe. They all seem to require some fundamental intelligence.

Why do you read several evolutionary papers per week?

Quote
This may be an irreconcilable philosophical difference, sufficed to say any of the laws I described would not be any more proof of this consiouness to me than if they did not exist. Having said that I am perfectly willing to accept the existence of a god, but I would still need scientific evidence of his involvement in evolution.
Are you familiar with cosmic fine tuning? It's not just a few laws here and there. They say, for example, that the amount of matter in the universe is within one billionth of what it needs to be in order to have a stable universe. That is, the parameters are that narrow. Nature's Destiny by Denton does a good job of explaining a wide array of them.

Quote
Having said that I am perfectly willing to accept the existence of a god, but I would still need scientific evidence of his involvement in evolution.
There is no way for God to be omnipotent or omniscient unless God is actually everywhere, and in everything. I think of evolution as an inside job, not one of an external being. It seems to me the evidence is fairly strong that random processes didn't cause this universe, or its laws, or its existence in the first place. What do you think of the information based arguments for ID?

Quote
I had this problem over at UD, the best way to look at it is that random means that the organism does not know which mutations will increase fitness.
It's too bad you guys over there have different names and I am clueless what's going on. It may be that the organism turns on a mutation feature, and in a specific area of the genome, and then suddenly gets the mutation for digesting nylon. For me, that's just too good to be true but we must also account for the organism's ability to direct itself like that in the first place.

Quote
Presumably you mean that we need an evolutionary path for every single system for it to be scientifically acceptable to infer that it did evolve?
I don't think so. Behe complains that there are none in the literature that are really any good. If we had a couple of quite good and plausible routes for some very complex systems to evolve, then the pressure would be off. It wouldn't matter that we couldn't explain each one.
Quote
I would say that modern evolutionary theory certainly does not rule it out.
Saltation?

Quote
(homology flaw)  Why is that a flaw, have I missed something?

I'm referring to the problem that homologous organs often do not arise from the same genes, and that during development, they are often grown from different body segments or in a different order or from a different group of cells. Animal forelimbs develop from different body segments. Homology is difficult because many or most genes control widely divergent body parts. The eye color of drosphila is controlled by a gene th also controls female sex organs. Mouse coat color and mouse size are on the same gene. Chickens are subject to a detrimental mutation in a single gene that causes a wide array of malformations, some of which are unique to birds and others which are shared by other vertebrates.

No only do homologous structures in closely related species arise from different genes, but nonhomologous structures can arise from the same gene.
Quote
This may be true in some cases, but in many cases journals are so eager to publish innovative 'against the grain' work that big name journals can end up publishing bad papers.
I suspect that this greatly depends on just which grains are being rubbed.

  
guthrie



Posts: 696
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 05 2006,22:14   

Quote (thordaddy @ April 05 2006,23:17)
Or, does evolution predict a collection of genes that will defy evolution?  Isn't this the nature of homosexuality?

Translation:
*Fingers in ears*
"lalalllalaaaaa I cant hear you, speak louder, llaaaaaalllaalaa"

WE have already explained why your comment is utter bollocks.  Please try and understand.

  
Tim Hague



Posts: 32
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 06 2006,01:17   

Quote (J. G. Cox @ April 05 2006,13:32)
In summary, the presence of alleles which promote homosexuality would not constitue a 'problem for evolution' for two reasons. First, modern evolutionary theory predicts the presence of some deleterious alleles within a population. Second, we have no idea if such alleles are actually deleterious.

Interesting analysis J. G.

There is one additional factor that might be worth having a look at - is the human race currently under selection pressure?  In certain parts of the world it is, however in increasingly large parts of the world I would argue that millions of humans are not under any particular pressure to survive at all.  

When a species is not under selection pressure, and with technology providing the vast majority of us the ability to survive, then deleterious traits would be able to spread (not being selected against).  If there are genetic influences on sexual preference, then they would not currently be affecting the survival of the species as a whole.  

There's also nothing to stop a homosexual man popping down to the sperm bank to make a donation, and - for a double whammy - a homosexual woman deciding to have a baby and popping down to the same sperm bank.

   
Russell



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(Permalink) Posted: April 06 2006,04:28   

Quote
There is new talk of a "gay gene" being profferred by "scientists."

I repeat: Is there? Where?

I suggest this whole thread is just Thorthingy making stuff up again and chortling while a bunch of potentially productive people waste time on it.

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Stephen Elliott



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(Permalink) Posted: April 06 2006,06:04   

Quote (Russell @ April 06 2006,09:28)
Quote
There is new talk of a "gay gene" being profferred by "scientists."

I repeat: Is there? Where?

I suggest this whole thread is just Thorthingy making stuff up again and chortling while a bunch of potentially productive people waste time on it.

I think that there has been.

Thordaddy's take is that science is trying to find a natural explanation for a gay gene for political purposes. Funnily enough he is on-side with the gays with this.

They also seem to worry that a gay gene is political.

Thordaddy is scared that a gay gene would make gays be considered normal. While gays are worried that a gay gene could be used as an excuse for people to hunt for (and then practice) "cures".

Myself: Who cares what consenting adults do (provided it harms nobody else)?

All sorts of stuff here.

  
The Ghost of Paley



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(Permalink) Posted: April 06 2006,06:23   

Thanks for the references. I remember the controversy surrounding Dean Hamer's work, but notice the silent dog in the debate: evolutionary theory. Why didn't Hamer take historical biology into account before offering his hypothesis? Answer: nobody knows what evolution predicts.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
The Ghost of Paley



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(Permalink) Posted: April 06 2006,06:35   

Quote
It seems to me that when we look at homosexuality, lesbianism, abortion, suicide and euthanasia, we see phenomenon that purposely defy evolution.  If each of these phenomenon were genetically-related then a "self-destruct" gene would seemed to have evolved at evolution's own design.

I agree, but I'd like to see if evolution actually makes any predictions before I hammer it with any putative inconsistencies. All of this could be avoided if evolution could provide a rigorous way to test its stories instead of leaning on other disciplines for guidance. This is why Dembski and Behe had to construct a new vocabulary before critiquing Darwin.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
avocationist



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(Permalink) Posted: April 06 2006,06:39   

Oh, sh**. My last post here (to Chris) was meant for another thread. I always keep two windows open since the reply screen is so cumbersome and hard to use. I will cut and paste it over there.

  
Russell



Posts: 1082
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 06 2006,08:06   

Quote
(Stephen Elliott: ) I think that there has been (new talk of a "gay gene" being proffered by "scientists".

You provided a bunch of google hits, but what's the "new" talk? Anything from this millennium?

I understand, of course, that there are and have been ongoing discussions about "nature vs. nurture" on this, as on so many issues of human behavior. But my question, specifically, is what is the "new talk"? Have any new data been found? Any new research reported?

Or is it just Thorthingy perseverating on one of his compulsions?

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Arden Chatfield



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(Permalink) Posted: April 06 2006,09:09   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ April 06 2006,11:35)
Quote
It seems to me that when we look at homosexuality, lesbianism, abortion, suicide and euthanasia, we see phenomenon that purposely defy evolution.  If each of these phenomenon were genetically-related then a "self-destruct" gene would seemed to have evolved at evolution's own design.

I agree, but I'd like to see if evolution actually makes any predictions before I hammer it with any putative inconsistencies. All of this could be avoided if evolution could provide a rigorous way to test its stories instead of leaning on other disciplines for guidance. This is why Dembski and Behe had to construct a new vocabulary before critiquing Darwin.

Well, I guess this disproves my observation that IDC types never talk to each other at science blogs...

PS: GOP, I think you can do better than Thordaddy. Believe me.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
stevestory



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(Permalink) Posted: April 06 2006,09:10   

GOP's like Albert Einstein compared to thordaddy.

   
Stephen Elliott



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(Permalink) Posted: April 06 2006,09:18   

Quote (Russell @ April 06 2006,13:06)
Quote
(Stephen Elliott: ) I think that there has been (new talk of a "gay gene" being proffered by "scientists".

You provided a bunch of google hits, but what's the "new" talk? Anything from this millennium?

I understand, of course, that there are and have been ongoing discussions about "nature vs. nurture" on this, as on so many issues of human behavior. But my question, specifically, is what is the "new talk"? Have any new data been found? Any new research reported?

Or is it just Thorthingy perseverating on one of his compulsions?

Maybe I did not make myself clear. I am not claiming there is scientific evidence that there is a gay gene. I am not claiming there isn't either.

I  was trying to show the stupidity of the argument.

TD. Seems to think scientists are trying to prove a gay gene for political purposes to suport homosexuality.

Homosexuals are worried scientists are trying to prove a gay gene for political purposes in order to "cure" homosexuality.

The google list was not suposed to suport either view. Just show that people are trying to use science to fulfil a world-view. I am not talking about scientists in general here BTW.

Personaly, I do not care what makes somebody homosexual. If pushed I would guess it is biological and reinforced by culture. But I do not know.

I am fairly sure that my being atracted by the oposite sex has little to do with culture, but is just the way I am. Again, I am not certain. But I am fairly sure. Look at peadophiles. Nothing in society encourages that.

Therefore I consider a peadophile not to be criminal but a mental defect.

I reckon we do not choose who/what we atracted by. It is a mental thing that people have none or little control over.

  
Russell



Posts: 1082
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 06 2006,10:01   

Quote
I am not claiming there is scientific evidence that there is a gay gene. I am not claiming there isn't either.
Yes, I understand what you're saying, and I'm pretty much of the same opinion.

What I don't understand is: what's new? When ThorGuy says
Quote
There is new talk of a "gay gene" being profferred by "scientists."
is he referring to the stuff you found from several years ago, or is there really anything "new" to bring to the discussion? And I want to know why the ThorGuy puts quotes around "scientists".

I suspect that trying to engage in this discussion without being clear on that is bound to be a waste of time.

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Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

  
Henry J



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(Permalink) Posted: April 06 2006,10:27   

Re "Homosexuals are worried scientists are trying to prove a gay gene for political purposes in order to "cure" homosexuality."

But wouldn't proving it to be environmental also have a chance of being used that way?

Henry

  
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