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NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 01 2015,11:19   

Weren't you going away?

NOTHING you have presented is anything other than an argument from incredulity.

None of the points you raise are new, unknown to researchers, or fatally problematic for naturalism.

Get over it.

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 01 2015,11:55   

Quote
DNA replication, and its mind boggling nano technology  that defies naturalistic explanations


That is incorrect. Therefore everything that follows is meaningless.

You need to read research papers instead of creationists.

Let me ask you a question (not that you'll answer).

If it could be proven that someone lied to you, multiple times, would you still use their arguments in discussions? Would you answer be different if you disagreed with their position?

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 01 2015,13:12   

I see the liar is back, having lied again.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
rossum



Posts: 289
Joined: Dec. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 01 2015,15:08   

Quote (Otangelo @ Dec. 01 2015,11:00)
DNA replication, and its mind boggling nano technology  that defies naturalistic explanations

Rearrange the following words to make a well known phrase or saying: GALLOP GISH.

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The ultimate truth is that there is no ultimate truth.

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 01 2015,15:36   

Quote (rossum @ Dec. 01 2015,13:08)
Quote (Otangelo @ Dec. 01 2015,11:00)
DNA replication, and its mind boggling nano technology  that defies naturalistic explanations

Rearrange the following words to make a well known phrase or saying: GALLOP GISH.

He could have saved a lot of typing by posting a picture of a fishing reel.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 01 2015,15:54   

He should shuffle a standard deck of cards, deal them out in a row, and contemplate the astounding improbability of exactly that sequence occurring.
He should take special note of pairs, runs, or other 'winning' series of cards.
Impossible!  Clearly, no naturalistic explanation is possible for this precise sequence of cards!

  
ChemiCat



Posts: 532
Joined: Nov. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 02 2015,04:06   

Quote

Quote (Otangelo @ Dec. 01 2015,11:00)
DNA replication, and its mind boggling nano technology  that defies naturalistic explanations.


Please, Trollangelo, point to anywhere in your copypasta that cannot be explained by the laws of physics and chemistry.

Better yet, point to somewhere in the DNA molecule and show what your miracle worker (sorry, Intelligent Designer) did, when and how.
With evidence and full chemical analysis in your own words.

Waiting..

  
Cubist



Posts: 558
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 02 2015,06:47   

Quote (Otangelo @ Nov. 17 2015,03:48)
 
Quote (Cubist @ Nov. 17 2015,03:10)

   
Quote
Fortunately, the fossil record here in the RealWorld does contain various transitional fossils, so your question doesn't arise.


I think there is enough evidence to say, the fossil record does NOT confirm the ToE…

That's nice. By all means, think what you like. The mere fact that what you like to think has little-to-no bearing upon reality, doesn't bar you from thinking what you like.

In an earlier comment, you asked the question:
Quote
If there are no transitional fossils in the fossil record, how would you confirm  the ToE in regard of paleontology?

This question presumes, as a hypothetical, that there aren't any transitional fossils in the fossil record. Do you understand that your hypothetical is invalid—that the fossil record does, in fact, contain some transitional fossils—and that, therefore, my response that the fossil record does, indeed contain some transitional fossils, is a valid answer to the question it was written in reply to?

Quote
Did Darwin also predict that lots of fossils with soft tissue, proteins, collagen, and non-permineralized, would be found?

I have no idea what Darwin may have predicted, or failed to predict, as regards specific features of the fossil record. If it does indeed turn out to be the case that Darwin made some predictions about specific features of the fossil record, and those (hypothetical?) predictions of Darwin's turn out to have been wrong, what of it?

Quote
 
Quote
Do you, or do you not, have evidence of "information-rich systems" being produced by "intelligent agents" other than human beings?

Once its granted that non-intelligence mechanisms are unable to create information-rich systems, your question is moot.

Sure: If one grants that "non-intelligence mechanisms are unable to create information-rich systems", then my question does, indeed, become moot.

If.

As it happens, I do not grant that "non-intelligence mechanisms are unable to create information-rich systems".

Quote
We know that intelligence outside of the human realm is possible. We have lots and lots of evidence of dualism, and out-of the body experiences, and near death experiences, which indicate that intelligence can exist without being bond to the physical body.

That's nice. And if I had written anything in the general neighhborhood of do you have evidence for the existence of "intelligence outside the human realm", it would even be a cogent response.

However, I did not ask you for evidence that "intelligent agents" other than human beings exist. Rather, I asked you for evidence that "intelligent agents" other than human beings have produced "information-rich systems".

I ask again: Do you, or do you not, have evidence of "information-rich systems" being produced by "intelligent agents" other than human beings?

 
Quote (Otangelo @ Nov. 16 2015,19:03)
 
Quote (Cubist @ Nov. 16 2015,18:51)

   
Quote
What does "new information" look like? Given an arbitrary string of nucleotides, and a mutation which alters that string of nucleotides, how can you tell whether or not the post-mutation version of that string contains any "new" information?

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t2062-p....roteins

Few of the many  possible polypeptide chains will be useful to Cells
Paul Davies puts it more graphically: ‘Making a protein simply by injecting energy is rather like exploding a stick of dynamite under a pile of bricks and expecting it to form a house…"

That's nice. It's nothing even vaguely approximating an answer to my question, but it's nice.

Quote
Bruce Alberts writes in Molecular biology of the cell :

Since each of the 20 amino acids is chemically distinct and each can, in principle, occur at any position in a protein chain, there are 20 x 20 x 20 x 20 = 160,000 different possible polypeptide chains four amino acids long…

Again: That's not an answer to my question, but it's nice.

It's a simple enough question: What does "new information" look like? I am not asking you to define what "new information" is, nor am I even asking you to justify your assumption that 'new information" exists; I am, instead, asking you how one would recognize this "new information" stuff if one actually saw it. Would you care to answer the question I actually wrote, as opposed to… some question you wish I'd written, or some question you imagine me to have written?

  
Otangelo



Posts: 149
Joined: Oct. 2015

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 16 2015,16:59   

Factory and machine planning and design, and what it tells us about cell factories and molecular machines

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t2245-f....achines

Some steps to consider in regard of factory planning, design and operation

All text in red requires INTELLIGENCE :

Choosing Manufacturing   and Factory location
Selecting Morphology of Factory Types
Factory planning
Factory design
Information management within factory planning and design
Factory layout planning
Equipment supply
Process planning
Production Planning and Control
establishing various internal and external  Communication networks
Establishing Quantity and Variant Flexibility
The planning of either a rigid or flexible volume concept depending of what is required
Establishing Networking and Cooperation
Establishing Modular organization
Size and internal factory space organization, compartmentalization and layout
Planning of recycling Economy
Waste management
Controlled factory implosion programming

All these procedures and operational steps are required and implemented in human factories, and so in biological cells which operate like factories. It takes a lot of faith to believe, human factories require intelligence, but cells, far more complex and elaborated, do not require intelligence to make them, and intelligent programming to work in a self sustaining and self replicating manner, and to self disctruct, when required.  

Molecular machines:

The most complex molecular machines are proteins found within cells. 1 These include motor proteins, such as myosin, which is responsible for muscle contraction, kinesin, which moves cargo inside cells away from the nucleus along microtubules, and dynein, which produces the axonemal beating of motile cilia and flagella. These proteins and their nanoscale dynamics are far more complex than any molecular machines that have yet been artificially constructed.

Probably the most significant biological machine known is the ribosome. Other important examples include ciliary mobility. A high-level-abstraction summary is that, "[i]n effect, the [motile cilium] is a nanomachine composed of perhaps over 600 proteins in molecular complexes, many of which also function independently as nanomachines." Flexible linker domains allow the connecting protein domains to recruit their binding partners and induce long-range allostery via protein domain dynamics.

Engineering design process

The engineering design process is a methodical series of steps that engineers use in creating functional products and processes. 2

All text in red requires INTELLIGENCE  

locating information and research
feasibility study
evaluation and analysis of the potential of a proposed project
process of decision making. Outlines and analyses alternatives or methods of achieving the desired outcome
feasibility report is generated
determine whether the engineer's project can proceed into the design phase
the project needs to be based on an achievable idea
concept study (conceptualization, conceptual engineering
project planning
solutions must be identified
ideation, the mental process by which ideas are generated
morphological chart - independent design characteristics are listed in a chart, and different engineering solutions are proposed for each solution. Normally, a preliminary sketch and short report accompany the morphological chart.
the engineer imagines him or herself as the item and asks, "What would I do if I were the system?"
Synthesis is the process of taking the element of the concept and arranging them in the proper way.
Synthesis creative process is present in every design.
thinking of different ideas, typically as part of a small group, and adopting these ideas in some form as a solution to the problem
Establishing design requirements is one of the most important elements in the design process
feasibility analysis
Some design requirements include hardware and software parameters, maintainability, availability, and testability
the overall system configuration is defined, and schematics, diagrams, and layouts of the project will provide early project configuration.
detailed design and optimization
the preliminary design focuses on creating the general framework to build the project on.
further elaborate each aspect of the project by complete description through solid modeling,drawings as well as specifications.
Some of the said specifications include:
Operating parameters
Operating and nonoperating environmental stimuli
Test requirements
External dimensions
Maintenance and testability provisions
Materials requirements
Reliability requirements
External surface treatment
Design life
considering packaging requirements and implant them
External marking
production planning and tool design
planning how to mass-produce the project and which tools should be used in the manufacturing of the part.
selecting the material, selection of the production processes, determination of the sequence of operations, and selection of tools, such as jigs, fixtures, metal cutting and metal forming tools.
start of manufactoring
the machines must be inspected regularly to make sure that they do not break down and slow production

Someone can object and say, that human invented machines do nor replicate, and therefor the comparison is invalid. Fact is however, that replication adds further complexity , since humans have not been able to construct self replicating machines in large scale. This is imho what every living cell is able and programmed to do. In order to so so, extremely complex celluar mechanisms are required, like DNA replication.

1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki....machine
2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki....process

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 16 2015,17:12   

Ah, more drive-by irrelevancy from the master of incomprehension.

  
Glen Davidson



Posts: 1100
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 16 2015,17:53   

Quote

Someone can object and say, that human invented machines do nor replicate, and therefor the comparison is invalid. Fact is however, that replication adds further complexity , since humans have not been able to construct self replicating machines in large scale.


So the "analogy" falls apart at that point.  Or would, if there were any real analogy in the first place.

"See, it's unlike things that we know were designed.  If that isn't proof of design, what could be?"

By the way, deal with the fact that the information isn't distributed according to required function, but according to heredity.  Sort of like we'd expect of unintelligent evolution, not of some supremely intelligent being capable of handing extreme complexity.

But you won't deal with that, any more than you'll come up with an honest analogy.

Glen Davidson

--------------
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
Occam's Aftershave



Posts: 5287
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 16 2015,18:04   

Quote (Otangelo @ Dec. 16 2015,16:59)
Factory and machine planning and design, and what it tells us about cell factories and molecular machines

Hey, the serial plagiarizer's back!

--------------
"CO2 can't re-emit any trapped heat unless all the molecules point the right way"
"All the evidence supports Creation baraminology"
"If it required a mind, planning and design, it isn't materialistic."
"Jews and Christians are Muslims."

- Joke "Sharon" Gallien, world's dumbest YEC.

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 16 2015,18:06   

Poor guy is too dumb to realize that nothing on his list requires intelligence... since none of it is red.

Of course, he's partially right... some of that requires intelligence. But that's meaningless to the idea of intelligent design, since there is no intelligence that can perform the requirements for evolution.

That's all you have to do Otangelo. Provide the designer. Provide the designer that has built the universe and designed and constructed all the living things in said universe.

Everything else you (and all ID proponents) is meaningless garbage. You REQUIRE a designer, yet you are totally unable to even describe said designer, much less its actual capabilities.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 16 2015,23:39   

Huh. What can we conclude from the return after a two-week absence.

1. Forgot he had flounced.
2. Slow healer.
3. Attention whore.
4. Meds need adjusting.
5....???

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
MagickMan



Posts: 1
Joined: Oct. 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 17 2015,05:24   

Quote (fnxtr @ Dec. 16 2015,23:39)
Huh. What can we conclude from the return after a two-week absence.

1. Forgot he had flounced.
2. Slow healer.
3. Attention whore.
4. Meds need adjusting.
5....???


5. Prophet?

  
ChemiCat



Posts: 532
Joined: Nov. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 17 2015,06:13   

Quote
Factory and machine planning and design, and what it tells us about cell factories and molecular machines [rubbishy analogy redacted]


Except that cell structures don't have forward planning or design, just the laws of physics and chemistry.

  
Cubist



Posts: 558
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 19 2015,21:01   

Quote (Otangelo @ Dec. 16 2015,16:59)
Factory and machine planning and design, and what it tells us about cell factories and molecular machines…

Hello, Otangelo! I can't help but notice that you have, once again, neglected to answer the questions I had for you.

Question: Do you, or do you not, have evidence of "information-rich systems" being produced by "intelligent agents" other than human beings?

I am not asking you to provide evidence that "intelligent agents" other than human beings exist. Rather, I am asking you to provide evidence that "intelligent agents" other than human beings have produced "information-rich systems".

Question: What does "new information" look like?

Given an arbitrary string of nucleotides, and a mutation which alters that string of nucleotides, how can you tell whether or not the post-mutation version of that string contains any "new" information?

I am not asking you to define what "new information" is. I am not asking you to justify your assumption that "new information" exists. I am, instead, asking you how one would recognize this "new information" stuff if one actually saw it.

I look forward to reading your answers to my questions.

  
ChemiCat



Posts: 532
Joined: Nov. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2015,04:31   

Quote
Hello, Otangelo! I can't help but notice that you have, once again, neglected to answer the questions[...]


Did you expect a testable, falsifiable answer from Trollangelo, Cubist? Don't hold your breath.

The first rule of Creationist Club? Don't answer questions about Creationist Club!

  
Cubist



Posts: 558
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2015,04:39   

Quote (ChemiCat @ Dec. 21 2015,04:31)
 
Quote
Hello, Otangelo! I can't help but notice that you have, once again, neglected to answer the questions[...]

Did you expect a testable, falsifiable answer from Trollangelo, Cubist? Don't hold your breath.

The first rule of Creationist Club? Don't answer questions about Creationist Club!

You are, of course, correct. I am merely following in the footsteps of Lenny Flank; as he liked to point out, his oft-repeated questions did their job regardless of whether or not their Creationist target responded to them in any way.

  
ChemiCat



Posts: 532
Joined: Nov. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2015,15:10   

Hi Cubist

Not being American I had to look up "Lenny Flank". I now see where you are coming from.

  
Cubist



Posts: 558
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 21 2015,19:42   

Quote (ChemiCat @ Dec. 21 2015,15:10)
Hi Cubist

Not being American I had to look up "Lenny Flank". I now see where you are coming from.

In addition to not being American, you're also relatively new to AtBC. I say "relatively new" because while Lenny hasn't posted much here in the past few years, there was a time when he was very active on this forum, and if you'd been around in those days, you would surely have remembered Lenny.

Try googling on [ site:www.antievolution.org "lenny flank" ]. I think you may enjoy what you find.

  
ChemiCat



Posts: 532
Joined: Nov. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 23 2015,03:27   

Thanks Cubist

I'm working my way through them.

  
Otangelo



Posts: 149
Joined: Oct. 2015

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 09 2016,18:45   

Quote (Cubist @ Dec. 19 2015,21:01)
[quote=Otangelo,Dec. 16 2015,16:59]

Question: Do you, or do you not, have evidence of "information-rich systems" being produced by "intelligent agents" other than human beings?

Question :  Do you, or do you not, have evidence of "information-rich systems" being produced by "intelligent agents" other than human beings?

Question :  Do you, or do you not, have evidence of "information-rich systems" being produced by NON "intelligent agents" at all ?

  
Otangelo



Posts: 149
Joined: Oct. 2015

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 09 2016,18:46   

ATP synthases: molecular nano power plants

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t1439p1....se#4550

From Marcos Eberlin's excellent book : Life and the Universe by Intelligent Design

https://www.widbook.com/ebook....-design

ATP synthase motor. The smallest and most efficient power plant on this planet powering the production of energy of Life. One of the essential requirements for Life is energy. Living organisms require large amounts of energy, and the molecule that stores and releases energy of life is adenosine triphosphate represented by the acronym ATP (Figure 2). And then there is a need for a huge amount of this molecule. And to synthesize it with efficiency and optimization, Life requires adenosine - a heterocyclic nitrogenous base, a ribose sugar molecule (one sugar) and three phosphates. Note the difficulty here for any unguided process  you "want to imagine" to form such a molecule. Sugars are formed by formaldehyde - essentially - a highly reactive molecule. Sugars are reactive and unstable, and reaction media that allow synthesis of sugars are incompatible with the means of synthesis of nitrogenous bases. Anions phosphate precipitate in the presence of metal ions such as Ca2 +, for example. And links between phosphate anions involve slow reactions, and need to be catalyzed by enzymes. Therefore, this molecule synthesis routes give a hell lot of work that only the machinery of life can perform. And to make matters worse for the task, the ATP molecule is unstable and hydrolyzes easily in water, and is exothermical (gives off heat). And then to establish the third phosphate connection, which requires most energy,  life must go against the kinetics and enthalpy and so uses the only way to overcome such cumber thermodynamic: a machine, and an incredible nanomachine: ATP synthase

The ATP molecule - a chemical masterpiece- to generate the energy of Life.
The ATP synthase is the name given to a true nanomolecular "power plant"  made by turbines and protein reactors, that in a spectacular and artfully crafted way, synthesizes - and reverse the synthesis - the molecule of ATP (adenosine triphosphate) from ADP (adenosine bifosfate) and anions of inorganic phosphate in the cells (Figure 1). A nanomolecular marvel of technology, chemistry and mechanical engineering mega intelligent.

Carved like a work of chemical art , beautiful and awe-inspiring - it appears to challenge failed theories - ATP synthase has the smallest engine known in this universe. And this engine, professional thing, it performs like  a perfect and finely tuned ballet,  a synchronized set of thousands and thousands of inter- and intramolecular interactions. This plant also has input channels and output protons also artfully constructed with extreme skill and sophistication and astonishing precision, and nanometrical distances and forces set and finely calculated for the purpose of building a nanomolecular plant maximized to produce  chemical energy.

With a nanomolecular turbine powered by protons and which transmits its movement through a molecular rotor, and channels that direct the movement of these protons - kind of molecular slides to the water parks, the ATP synthase has fascinated many electrical and  chemical engineers primarily - for its perfection in performing reactions and producing energy. In it, we also have "molecular pins" that attach the rotor to the chemical reactor (F1 unit) catalyst, which accommodates within itself the reagents and literally confines them and "Squeezes", so as to accelerate the desired chemical reaction. And that tightens and loosens are all promoted by a synchronized spin - one opens and closes nanometrically set - governed by a molecular piece of oval shape crankshaft type in camshafts, those that man added to their combustion engines
A fantastic chemical reaction then occurs in the ATP synthase: ADP + ATP → PO4-. And the whole machinery of ATP synthase is there fitted perfectly in the cell wall of the inner mitochondrial membrane , that hyper mega high tech " cell ship" . And all with homochiral molecules, AA type lefthanded only.

The ATP synthase is therefore a show of sophistication, specification and aperiodicity, and hyper mega irreducible complexity . Disconnect one of its components, disturb one of its forms, replace some of your AA position, and there are thousands and thousands of them, and the system loses function altogether. Try to build it slowly, step by step, by mindless unguided processes, will it be possible? Viable at the molecular level? Where would the energy come from to build it, if it is the energy provider of life? Remember though that the energy that produces ATP synthase is essential to life, virtually for all forms of life. And it is power required  at the right time at the right flow! The structure of ATP synthase is so ingenious that its elucidation earned a Nobel Prize in 1997, as the enormity and significance of the feat. Our cells contain thousands of these nanomotors embedded in their mitochondria, and installed in their membranes. And these nanomotors - nano power plants - are about 200,000 times smaller than a pinhead. And that nanomotor is there for the sole purpose of forcing the occurrence of a single reaction: the third phosphate bond in ADP "crushing it" along with phosphate to form ATP
The ATP molecules are used in key processes in the cell which require energy, which is released , then regenerating ADP and a free phosphate. The energy produced is directed, for example in humans, for contraction of muscles, beating of the heart and processes in the brain, whereas the reaction products are economically and wisely recycled . In the center of the ATP synthase is a small rotor which rotates around 100 revolutions per second, synthesizing 3 ATP molecules per revolution, or 300 molecules of ATP per second! Only for our thinking and walking, we recycle proportional to our body weight (80 kg) of ATP every day. Each enzyme in the ATP synthase is composed of 31 other proteins that, in turn, are made of thousands of amino acids precisely arranged. Remove any of the 31 proteins and the motor becomes simply useless.
The ATP synthase, along with the Scourge, is one of the most "striking" examples of mega irreducible complexity we see around the corner in life. And there's more: all the immense set of genetic information and RNA, plus dozens of proteins needed to build the ATP synthase, are in total even more irreducibly complex than the ATP synthase itself. The car factory is -by principle - more irreducibly complex than the car it manufactures.

Described in more details chemical and biochemical (insane task), the ATP synthase is a protein complex consisting of several proteins that fit perfectly synchronously, and - in a synchronized chemical ballet - in the form of a "mushroom". This nano mill is in thousands "installed" on the inner membrane of the mitochondria (Figure 6). There are two main components: (1) head - a spherical area comprised by the catalytic portion of the enzyme known as Factor connection 1, or simply F1, which measures about 90 Å in diameter; and (2) basic - called F0 - fixing the whole to the inner membrane of mitochondria. High resolution SEM micrographs revealed that the head (1) and the bottom part (2) are joined by a central rod - formed by subunits F1 and F0 - relatively narrow (45) which is connected to a peripheral button 90-100 Å in diameter. A mitochondria located in human liver cells has about 15,000 copies of ATP synthase

The most efficient way to conduct a chemical reaction known in this universe, "the hard way"! In the ATP synthase, a protein complex jointly embraces a ADP difosfate  molecule and one anion phosphate (Pi) providing energy and forcing them "mechanically" by reacting . Reaction occurred "by force", the engine spins at 8,500 RPM and the protein complex "opens" then its arms, by the action of the crankshaft driven by an engine and rotor, and releases the product, the tri-phosphate ATP molecule. The ATP synthase is the smallest rotary engine known today. To give you an idea of its tiny size, in a millimeter, can be grouped, side by side, approximately about 100 000 ATP synthases. This engine is driven not by power, but by "proton energy"; that is, by a countercurrent flow of protons.
The ATP synthase would then be the headless product of evolution, not guided or inexcusable evidence of intelligent design? Remember that without energy there is no life, and in life there is no power without ATP, and in life there is no ATP without ATP synthase. The ATP synthase is thus more one of the great "chicken-egg" dilemmas  of Life! For all biochemical processes that coordinate the functioning and structure need to be supplied ATP synthase molecule itself produces: ATP. About 14 trillion body cells at this point are conducting this biochemical reaction via ATP synthase, in about a million times per minute through mitochondria.
To give you even more ingenius details of this fabulous machine, note that the F1 region of ATP synthase (F1-ATPase) is made up of six protein units, and divided into three pairs of active sites. These units form regions which provide "chemical hugs" through a docking site for ADP and phosphate. An anchoring (or stator) is curved on the outside of the structure in order to fix the base (F0) to the head (F1). Three molecules of ATP are formed for each complete shaft rotation. Chemical engineering of ATP synthase is  shown - there's no denying - intelligent and mega efficient . The complex has a spiral shaft, called "Y", which is the circumference between F0 and F1 and allows the connection of one region to the other, like a pen within a cardboard tube. The intelligent design of this nanomolecular machine causes the flow of protons, across the membrane, turn the shaft and the base. So it's not turning the base and the axis "attracts" the protons, as originally thought, but it is the flow of protons turning the engine. The turning occurs when the central axis (y) puts pressure on the inner walls of the six proteins in the F1 region thus result in a smooth structural deformation with consequent reformation alternately. My vote here for the "pinnacle" of chemical engineering in the nanomolecular this universe. Heck, what a  genius mind that knew Chemistry as anyone else, to come up with something like that!

Note further that the F0 subunit, which is fixed on the membrane of mitochondria, rotates clockwise. Laterally annexed the F0, is another input channel subunit which serves as the channel where the protons will be directed to the engine. The rotation is synchronized around its own axis and provides that individually protons enter and exit, respectively. Since the protons are attracted to the input channel, they connect to F0, and follow  nearly a complete rotation, they then are  conveyed to an output channel present on the same side frame attached to where F0 enters. The subunit F1 (F1 ATPase) is that attracts molecules adenosine diphosphate (ADP) and phosphate (Pi), which are released together with ATP.

3D view at the molecular level of ATP synthase: nano power plant vital to life on this planet.

But there is even more wonder in the ATP synthase: the rotational mechanism used for F0 is performed routinely when there is a high concentration of protons in the cytosol and a low concentration of ATP inside the mitochondria. But when these concentrations are reversed, the enzyme " understands biochemically" that its function was successful, and if it continues, will promote serious imbalance in the cell. Control is everything! In this situation, the ATP synthase "thinks and reacts," and and makes its F0 turn now in the opposite direction, and the mechanism is reversed, and the proton exit channel now becomes the input channel, and the  protons inside the organelle return to the cytosol. ATP molecules are now converted to ADP and phosphate free, in a chemical "retro-reaction" . A chemical balance nano-mechanically directed and controlled! Since you know this fantastic nanomachine a little better  at the molecular level, , what do you think: chance or design?

Referências e notas
1. "ATP synthase — a marvellous rotary engine of the cell" M. Yoshida, E. Muneyuki, T. Hisabori, Nature Reviews Molecular Cell Biology 2001, 2, 669.
2. Paul D. Boyer. The ATP Synthase - a splendid molecular machine. Annual Review of Biochemistry, Vol. 66: 717-749 (July 1997)

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 09 2016,22:41   

Quote (Otangelo @ Jan. 09 2016,18:45)
[quote=Cubist,Dec. 19 2015,21:01]
Quote (Otangelo @ Dec. 16 2015,16:59)


Question: Do you, or do you not, have evidence of "information-rich systems" being produced by "intelligent agents" other than human beings?

Question :  Do you, or do you not, have evidence of "information-rich systems" being produced by "intelligent agents" other than human beings?

Question :  Do you, or do you not, have evidence of "information-rich systems" being produced by NON "intelligent agents" at all ?

Yes.

I believe these were already mentioned for you.

1) Stars
2) Termites
3) Crystals
4) Rock Layers

Now answer the question.

Do you or do you now, have evidence of "information rich systems" being produced by intelligent agents other than humans?

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2016,11:45   

Oooooh -- "hyper mega irreducible complexity"!
Not impressive.
There is no such thing as 'irreducible complexity'.
Your arguments from incredulity do not serve to establish the meaningfulness and applicability of the alleged concept.
It has less relevance to science than 'the current king of France' does to politics.
For the same reason.

Meanwhile, your concept of a supernatural entity is incoherent, internally contradictory, and unsupported by evidence of any sort.
Just the sort of thing you find intellectually satisfying.

Shameful.

  
ChemiCat



Posts: 532
Joined: Nov. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2016,14:40   

[QUOTE]
Quote (Cubist @ Dec. 19 2015,21:01)
Quote (Otangelo @ Dec. 16 2015,16:59)


Question: Do you, or do you not, have evidence of "information-rich systems" being produced by "intelligent agents" other than human beings?

Question :  Do you, or do you not, have evidence of "information-rich systems" being produced by "intelligent agents" other than human beings?

Question :  Do you, or do you not, have evidence of "information-rich systems" being produced by NON "intelligent agents" at all ?


Pleading the fifth, Trollangelo?

The first rule of Creationist Club? Don't answer questions about Creationist Club! Case proven.

  
Soapy Sam



Posts: 659
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 10 2016,14:59   

Flounce.
Anyway, about this ATP synthase.
Flounce again, and this time I mean it.
Anyway, about this ATP synthase.

--------------
SoapySam is a pathetic asswiper. Joe G

BTW, when you make little jabs like “I thought basic logic was one thing UDers could handle,” you come off looking especially silly when you turn out to be wrong. - Barry Arrington

  
ChemiCat



Posts: 532
Joined: Nov. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 12 2016,04:52   

And Trollangelo continues his drive-by behaviour.

I'll bet good money that he is a postal bible college student who gains credits for bearding the "evilutionists" in their own lair. He has now gone off to email his "professor" for more copy pasta and get a pat on the head for being a good evangelist.

  
k.e..



Posts: 5432
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 12 2016,07:34   

Quote (Cubist @ Dec. 22 2015,03:42)
Quote (ChemiCat @ Dec. 21 2015,15:10)
Hi Cubist

Not being American I had to look up "Lenny Flank". I now see where you are coming from.

In addition to not being American, you're also relatively new to AtBC. I say "relatively new" because while Lenny hasn't posted much here in the past few years, there was a time when he was very active on this forum, and if you'd been around in those days, you would surely have remembered Lenny.

Try googling on [ site:www.antievolution.org "lenny flank" ]. I think you may enjoy what you find.

Those were the halcyon days of ID/AtBC with Lenny, Arden, Louis, and Dave Scott. There were others too that now seem to have dissappeared into tbe mists of time.

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
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