Antievolution.org - Antievolution.org Discussion Board -Topic::Official Uncommonly Dense Discussion Thread

Posted: June 07 2006,17:15

Aardvark,

I took a look at that, too. If my post is not trash-canned, then -this- post will be redundant.

I said that I thought it was a good way to help people understand that some things can look designed, even when they are not.

Rilke's Granddaughter

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Posted: June 07 2006,17:30

Quote (steve_h @ June 07 2006,21:17)

Quote

Every time I get into it with PT, I get this sick, dirty feeling, like I’ve been to an outhouse that’s in constant use but hasn’t been cleaned in years. I’m closing this thread down as well and will be more careful in the future about taking their bait.

Translation: This thread is making me and my obnoxious following look bad. To make things worse, I can't just "disappear it" as in the past, because I kicked up such a fuss about having to archive what they, or as it turns out, I, said, in order to prevent them from revising and/or disappearing their (and/or my) comments. Therefore, in the interests of damage limitation, I am going to pre-censor any further embarrasing comments on this subject. Is there no depth below which those vile PT people will not sink?

I don't follow UD very much, so this question is asked in ignorance.

Once upon a time, I thought that Dembski was simply a misguided theist with enough mathematical training to compose sloppy diatribes. But those posts show a truly juvenile mindset: it's the sort of thing one might expect from a poor-white-trash fourteen-year-old male. It's not even very intelligent.

What happened to him? Is it simply the fact that at an age when other mathematicians are doing interesting and intellectually challenging work at important institutions, he's stuck teaching stupid fundies how to add and subtract? Is that the only people who think he's got anything to say are brain-dead morons such as Salvador and Dave Springer?

It must be very depressing to be adored by people that you despise.

Arden Chatfield

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Posted: June 07 2006,17:31

Quote (steve_h @ June 07 2006,21:17)

Quote

Every time I get into it with PT, I get this sick, dirty feeling, like I’ve been to an outhouse that’s in constant use but hasn’t been cleaned in years. I’m closing this thread down as well and will be more careful in the future about taking their bait.

DT needs to be careful about saying stuff like that -- it just encourages us.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

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Posted: June 07 2006,17:52

RGD said

It must be very depressing to be adored by people that you despise.

Yeah ....after WAD's last little foray into the real world defending his brain dead physics and admitting as much, he must be wondering now that his hopeless version of an infinite energy machine is all but ridiculed off the planet, what IS he going to do with all those sycophants.

It's no good having a product that is just expensive toilet paper without some stupid ass' to wipe. ...oopps.

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The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

deadman_932

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Posted: June 07 2006,18:03

Hah, I hadn't been following the antics of D*mbski and Dumbo's Man lately but this episode is funnier than the Gay Marriage/Thordaddy projects his secret yearnings poll.

D*mbski reminds me of a wind-up toy at this point.

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

Ichthyic

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Posted: June 07 2006,18:13

Quote

D*mbski reminds me of a wind-up toy at this point.

he does seem to have completely immersed himself in the role, at this point.

no way to go back to the "street theatre" stage he was claiming shortly before he tried to mothball UD.

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

deadman_932

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Posted: June 07 2006,18:41

I think Billy needs a sabbatical.

The crushing reality of having Behe place ID on a par with astrology seems to have unhinged the lad.

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

keiths

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Posted: June 07 2006,18:52

Quote

Every time I get into it with PT, I get this sick, dirty feeling, like I’ve been to an outhouse that’s in constant use but hasn’t been cleaned in years. I’m closing this thread down as well and will be more careful in the future about taking their bait.

Dembski doesn't seem to realize that the 'sick, dirty feeling' has nothing to do with PT and everything to do with himself. He is the one posting anonymous reviews of his own books on Amazon. He is the one reporting Eric Pianka to the Department of Homeland Security. He is the one trashing Jeff Shallit's deposition, then making the evidence disappear when his accusations turn out to be unfounded. He is the one smearing Kevin Padian, and now he is the one offering half-apologies for falsely accusing Pim van Meurs of quote-mining.

Ah, but you see, it's PT's fault for baiting him.

What self-respecting person could do all of that and NOT experience a 'sick, dirty feeling' when looking in the mirror?

Logs and motes, Bill. Logs and motes.

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

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Posted: June 07 2006,19:33

Hahahaha ....Dupeski......hoist with his own petard

"For 'tis the sport to have the enginer / Hoist with his owne
petar" -- Shakespeare, Hamlet III iv

Oh the pain .....the pain.....
and will be more careful in the future about taking their bait.

erm ......that's actually translates to

...and will be more careful in the future about standing up in public in case my pants fall off. (and publicly indulge in heinous onanism (a little old testament ref. there for you Bill.)

hehehehehe....no wonder he has cleaning problems.

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The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

cogzoid

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Posted: June 07 2006,19:35

Quote

Comtemporary human metabolic theory says that I burn about 500 calories per hour pumping iron at Gold’s Gym. Add a conservative factor of 1.5 for freaking out. That makes 750 calories. Multiply that by 4.184 joules per calorie which makes 3,138 joules, which equals nearly three BTUs. Divide that by 60 to get a minute’s worth of freak-out BTUs. At that rate, all the Darwinists should burn out in about 20 years.

I guess ol' GilDodgen doesn't realize that the Calories we eat are really kilocalories in a scientist's units. Who would've guessed that he didn't get a solid scientific education?

Ichthyic

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Posted: June 07 2006,20:08

Quote

Dembski doesn't seem to realize that the 'sick, dirty feeling' has nothing to do with PT and everything to do with himself.

gees, folks, not to sound like a broken record *again*, but this is yet another classic bit of speech that fits the definition of... you guessed it...

projection.

the Kitzmiller trial did seem to send Dembski for a loop. It was pretty clear based on his "predictions" before the result was announced that he wasn't expecting quite the blow to his ego that it turned out to be.

It's still unclear as to whether the blow was felt more by his religious worldview, or his pocketbook though.

I bet sales of his book went downhill substantially after the verdict.

regardless, ever since then he just hasn't been "on his game", and has posted some really, uh, questionable, tidbits for us to chew on.

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

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Posted: June 07 2006,22:40

It's only natural. After Dover, he's not looking to expand his market; he's just trying to keep his appeal to the core of his target group. He11, I'm pretty sure he'll turn into a young-earther (or at least throw quite a few winks and nudges at them), if that helps him stabilize his sales...

Anyway, it's easy to understand where WD got the idea for his "dirty, unclean" metaphor:

Quote

The loosers @ PT do nothing but sling sh*t around. This is not suprising because its obvious every pro evo-darwinist there only know about eating sh*t.

Like the saying goes, ya are what you eat right ?

Charlie

Comment by Charliecrs — June 7, 2006 @ 3:44 pm

Um, sure, Charlie. And what you say.

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A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome. And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

djmullen

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Posted: June 08 2006,00:31

Quote

Dembski says: Too bad that Freeman Dyson agrees with me and not with them.

This is utterly false. Nowhere in the referenced paper does Dyson say that zero-energy waves can impart information.

And nowhere in my quote do I say that zero-energy waves impart information — I say that they do in the limit. Let me suggest you read the appropriate chapters in Michael Spivak’s calculus book on limits. In the meantime, you’re out of here. –WmAD

Comment by secondclass — June 7, 2006 @ 5:08 pm

And what the heck does the limit have to do with anything? YOU said that zero energy infinite wavelength waves can impart information TODAY AND IN THE PAST. That's how your Designer interacts with this universe to make it what it is today, remember?

Dyson says that IN THE FAR, FAR FUTURE, when the universe is almost completely run down, there will be less and less available energy, but that life and intelligence can still survive by operating on less and less energy, which they can do by running slower and slower.

This has NOTHING to do with imparting information into the universe TODAY and IN THE PAST!

Dyson doesn't agree with Dembski because Dyson can recognize a faker a mile off.

Dembski challanged us to email Dyson and see for ourselves. Well, I invite Dembski to email Dyson, quote him your claims and invite him to say if he agrees with Dembski or not. But Dembski's not dumb enough to set himself up for that kind of humiliation.

Anybody know Freeman Dyson's email address?

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Posted: June 08 2006,00:34

edit+ Faid said ..Um, sure, Charlie. And what you say. end edit

Yeah that must be the scatological designer ..is his god a turd?

WAD's chest must proudly expand when he breaths in that stuff each morning as he sniffs his blog.

Terrific intellects impassionately discussing the data, mined using the 'ID' ~~scientific method~~ dung magnet which no mater how hard they try only seems to attract flies.

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The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

keiths

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Posted: June 08 2006,00:45

Quote

Anybody know Freeman Dyson's email address?

It's dyson@ias.edu. He's at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, NJ.

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And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

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Posted: June 08 2006,01:43

I wonder if Dembski will now post a whole slew of things in order to push his embarrasment down the page and off the first page as quickly as possible. It's been done before.

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Posted: June 08 2006,02:10

Quote (Aardvark @ June 07 2006,18:31)

I don't really know what crandaddy's trying to get at with this but I guess it has something to with design detection via intuition or something.

The fist picture is from here and is of a natural rock formation from Corriganville, which is apparently near Hollywood.

The second picture is from here and is of an Olmec (early pre-Hispanic civilisation) rock sculpture.

But, aren't they both designed? As GilDodgen points out, the universe was obviously designed because of fine-tuning, so wouldn't that mean that both rock formations are the result of design?

Or, maybe they simply mean that we can discern design by humans, so we can infer supernatural design. Does supernatural mean "god"? I'm sure it doesn't.

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5. Well Gil, didn’t you know that since we know God doesn’t exist and is just a fairy tale derived from the evolution of human brain cells that therefore intelligent design cannot be true no matter how impossible to prove evolution is? It’s simple logic. You have: no god=intelligent design is impossible. That’s science and whomever doesn’t agree is anti science. Umkay? So it doesn’t matter if OUR ability to prove evolution is not very well documented, we have no choice but to believe it otherwise what else is there? Now go out and insist that everyone who doesn’t blindly accept evolution as de facto TRUTH is a fundamentalist who wants to make the world over into a religious totalitarian state…if you do that then the academic world will open their arms to you for a teaching or research position at the most prestigious universities in the world. So don’t be anti-science umkay? Be pro evolution and anti God…or else….doors will close.

Comment by mentok — June 7, 2006 @ 10:49 pm

Um....no, no religion here, move along.

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Posted: June 08 2006,02:11

Quote (GCT @ June 08 2006,06:43)

I wonder if Dembski will now post a whole slew of things in order to push his embarrasment down the page and off the first page as quickly as possible. It's been done before.

Looking at his immediately following posts, "A darwin of energy" and "meet Joe the archaeologist", I'd say that's extremely likely.

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A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome. And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

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Posted: June 08 2006,02:28

Quote

Joe only has enough funds and resources to dig at one of these sites. At which (if either) of these sites should he dig and why?

The first one, obviously. Hands down.

I mean, it's obvious: Both anomalies possess spades of CSI, so they are designed. But the crude and incomplete characteristics of the first one can only be made by puny ancient hu-mans, while the amazing symmetry and perfection of the second one can only be the work of an extraordinary intelligence- Qejalcoatl, perhaps, or the Jaguar God.
Oh yeah, and Aliens. Thank you, Mr. von Daniken.

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A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome. And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

stevestory

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Posted: June 08 2006,02:39

Why doesn't he just calculate the amount of CSI in each one?

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Posted: June 08 2006,03:58

Now here is something that Demski can apply his 'Designer? Mathmatics' to.

The 3.4-billion-year-old rocks show the dappled hallmarks of ancient life.

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The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

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Joined: Mar. 2006

Posted: June 08 2006,05:28

Quote (stevestory @ June 08 2006,07:39)

Why doesn't he just calculate the amount of CSI in each one?

Don't be silly... we all know that CSI comes universally in just two quantisised values: Zero, and Lots.

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A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome. And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

stevestory

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Posted: June 08 2006,05:37

LOL I know. And it's calculated by asking if the thing looks designed. If yes, CSI==lots.

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Posted: June 08 2006,05:44

Dr. Bottaro also points out on the now infamous PvM vs. Dembski post that Dembski is repackaging his stuff so much that he can't keep straight what he has and hasn't written. Bottaro also rightly points out that repackaging the same stuff in different publications without acknowledging the source is a no-no.

So, just another spot where Dembski has ceded the ethical high road.

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Posted: June 08 2006,05:56

Well .....since self publication to avoid peer review is a rolled gold hallmark of pseudo-science ...so as far as I'm concerned he gave up the right to any moral claim concerning the validity of his pontifications long ago.

He can do what he likes with his 'material' there is no going back...and he d@mn well knows it.

Now if he only published peer reviewed papers several of his current 'problems' would never have surfaced.
1. His erroneous writing would have never seen the light of day.
2. Quote mining himself would have....oh wait go back to 1.

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The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

Mr_Christopher

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Posted: June 08 2006,07:06

It's been 6 months or so since Kitzmiller and how many scientific experiments have been conducted since then to validate ID©? How many papers have been published in legitimate scientific journals that support ID©?

Now tell me how many new discoveries and experiments have been made that further support ToE and our understanding of things like DNA, etc.? Here's a hint - tons.

In fact a good PT article would consists of noting all the recent discoveries (since Kitzmiller) that further support ToE and also all the "science" that has been done in the name of ID© in the same time frame.

What makes me laff is no one at the UD camp seems to realize that the ID "scientists" have not produced a dang thing since Kitzmiller, meanwhile real science has been on a tear since then.

Funny.

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Posted: June 08 2006,07:06

Oh boy.

On the dumb as rocks thread we've got not just CSI, but irreducible complexity as well...

Quote

14. El Schwalmo: Concerning stones (an example of ‘one-generation-systems’) the decision is trivial: they have to acquire all complexity within the life span of one object. In this case it is easy to decide: designed or ‘chance’ (sensu ID). There is nothing to learn from this example for ‘many-generation-systems’, able to descent with modification.

A valid point, but this is where the concept of the “irreducibly complex system” comes in, which by definition IS a “one-generation” system. Here descent with modification fails.

There should be little argument of the above definition, however, those proposing multi-generation descent with modification cannot accept that any system truly is irreducibly complex (without the possible exception of co-option, which simply says that the system is derived from another system of nearly equal complexity used for a different purpose).

“Single generation” is the point ID makes. It is the hallmark of designed systems, even if you have a prototype to be further developed, it is generally a huge leap above any previous example. What is the precursor to the bacterial flagellum which had one or two fewer proteins?

Comment by SCheesman — June 8, 2006 @ 10:58 am

So, carvings made in rocks are irreducibly complex? Huh. But, it gets better.

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16. SCheesman, are there examples of irreducibly complex systems being designed/tweaked gradually over time? Witness the countless iterations of your car in previous generations, or the space shuttle, with near-constant engineering/re-engineering over the space of several decades.

Isn’t it true that an irreducibly complex system may have come about either gradually or suddenly? The key is not whether it came about as a single abrupt system or as a result of a long cumulative process. Rather, the key is whether the system as it stands exhibits specified complexity that is the hallmark of intelligence. There is no requirement that a designer, in the process of infusing specified complexity, must do it all in one fell swoop or not at all.

Comment by Eric Anderson — June 8, 2006 @ 11:47 am

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha....It sounds like he's saying IC systems could evolve....Wait, that can't be true....D'oh!

Wesley R. Elsberry

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Posted: June 08 2006,07:22

William Dembski is in a bad position. "Intelligent design" was never anything more than a label for a subset of the argumentation that had been called "creation science" just previously. Dembski's chosen role was to gild the label, which he did with gusto, layering it with filigrees of propositional logic and finials of pseudomathematics.

But labels are evanescent. The Discovery Institute's Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture was already signalling the end-of-life for the "intelligent design" branding by 2002 in Ohio, where they offered a "compromise" of calling the arguments "critical analysis" instead. Throughout the following history of conflict in Ohio, the one constant was that the antievolution advocates continually claimed that there was no "intelligent design" in the standards or the "critical analysis" lesson plan, essentially ceding "intelligent design" as something to be regarded as beyond the pale of consideration for K-12 instruction.

Dembski's career, though, is not based on anything broader than "intelligent design". Dembski does not have a clear path to do anything else in the DI CSC's current program. If all that is being contemplated is the subset of arguments that are purely about the capacity of evolutionary biology to result in life's history and diversity, Dembski has no expertise in the relevant biology, a fact that has not escaped previous attention, emphasized by the previously web-published chapters of a forthcoming textbook.

Dembski, like certain character actors, finds himself tied to his former popular role. "Intelligent design" has been all but discarded by his erstwhile colleagues at the DI, and certainly is not the label of choice for the antievolution efforts in the wake of the Kitzmiller decision. Dembski has to continue to advocate for the legitmacy of "intelligent design" even though the leadership of the antievolution movement has clearly signalled their intent to de-emphasize or abandon "intelligent design" as a sort of strategic sacrifice. We can expect that Dembski will long be ringed by a cadre of followers who didn't get the memo, though.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

Arden Chatfield

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