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  Topic: MrIntelligentDesign, Edgar Postrado's new Intelligent Design< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
someotherguy



Posts: 398
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2015,05:47   

Quote (MrIntelligentDesign @ Oct. 06 2015,04:38)
Quote (someotherguy @ Oct. 05 2015,19:06)
Let's say I have a rock.  Now let's say that I stand over this rock holding a baseball bat with a threatening look on my face.  The rock does nothing to respond to this threat from me.  According to this new science, can I now conclude that rock = naturen?  If so, does that mean that the rock is not a product of intelligence?

What I said was that, if X is you as human, you are intellen.

How do we know?

If I threat you as to kill you, you either fight back or move away..

Your feet (1) and your eyes (2) and your mind (3) are all your defense mechanisms to protect your life with my threat (Xo).

In this example,

your feet is X', eyes is X' and mind is X'...three features that support you to live.

Now, let us go to ROCK.

We already know and familiar that ROCK has a certain feature and characteristic, and it is so obvious that ROCKS are existence and yet they are all naturen.

But if one sculpture had used that ROCK to become art (Xo to rock), then, the rock is intellen.

The one that threat the ROCK for existing as "ROCK" is the art of sculpture (Xo).. The ROCK now becomes ART, losing the characteristic of ROCK as ROCK...if origin of rock's surface is in question...

PLEASE, READ one Section of my book for more examples.

You said that if you had an "X" in front of you, then you could do the following

Quote
measure the feature of your X that made your X really X after you threat your X with Xo


Now you've qualified this for X=rock with the following:

Quote
The one that threat the ROCK for existing as "ROCK" is the art of sculpture (Xo).. The ROCK now becomes ART, losing the characteristic of ROCK as ROCK...if origin of rock's surface is in question...


Unfortunately, the above is incomprehensible in the English language, and therefore I am unable to apply this method to X=rock.

--------------
Evolander in training

  
The whole truth



Posts: 1554
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2015,06:53   

Quote (MrIntelligentDesign @ Oct. 06 2015,02:11)
Quote (Texas Teach @ Oct. 05 2015,17:27)
Quote (N.Wells @ Oct. 05 2015,09:04)
 
Quote (MrIntelligentDesign @ Oct. 05 2015,08:40)
 
Quote (The whole truth @ Oct. 05 2015,08:30)
Edgar, you say that animals are not intelligent. Crows are animals. Click on the links below:

http://io9.com/the-mys....0350033

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki.......an_crow

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2....48....486.stm

There are many more articles and videos about crows making and using tools, and crows aren't the only animals that make and use tools. And making and/or using tools isn't the only sign of intelligence.

Do you still say that humans are intelligent but all animals are not?

I did not say that animals have no instinct. I said that animals except humans exceeds the natural phenomena and they were incorrectly labeled as "intelligence". They are just using instinct.

I've already calculated that 1 is for natural process- naturen

1 ~ 1.499999999...is for instinct but it is still naturen

So, instinct is better than natural process alone..

Thus, tell those scientists and thinkers to follow me and not their incorrect mis-interpretation and incorrect explanation of biological world.

No one has disputed that animals are largely driven by instincts.  However, some of them, to varying degrees, surpass instinct.  Your 1.5 ratio is indefensible: you have to get results you want by relying on trivial examples and twisting the bejesus out of everything else to force it to fit your conclusions.  Many animals are clearly capable of generating creative solutions above and beyond their instinctive programming, which is intelligence in any rational sense of the word.  Crows are a very good example.  Elephants, dolphins and chimpanzees are even better examples.  Chimpanzees notably come up with multiple solutions to problems (e.g., cracking nuts, getting termites out of termitaries, impressing females & getting sex, acquiring food from others, getting food from tricky experimental set-ups).

You have also not demonstrated that intelligence excludes instinct as a primitive form of intelligence, although your definition of intellen clearly excludes it, and it's certainly within your prerogatives to invent and define new terms.

Even more damning for his notions than tool use is the research that shows that some tool use in chimps, orangutans, and dolphins is cultural.  It is learned.  It is specific to those individuals who have learned it from others, and is thus confined to specific groups.  I recall one example of tool use in Orangs that is different on two sides of a river because they don't cross that river.

Learning in animals are instinctual learning...thus, those animals that you had enumerated don't use intelligence but instinct only. Did you get me?

Show me the difference between instinct and intelligence if you dis-agree. I will asking you after that.....

Edgar, you're the one who is claiming that some things are intelligent or intelligently designed or intellen or naturen or whatever, and you're the one who is claiming that animals are not intelligent and use instinct only, so you're the one who should show the difference between instinct and intelligence.

--------------
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2015,06:58   

Quote (MrIntelligentDesign @ Oct. 06 2015,04:59)
Quote (NoName @ Oct. 05 2015,15:28)
Quote (MrIntelligentDesign @ Oct. 05 2015,16:11)

You just don't understand why and how that is why you are complaining to me.

That's your easy out for everything isn't it?

The evidence is quite clear that you are the one who does not understand.

Your words are ridiculous, and N.Wells is quite properly ridiculing them.
That you don't understand why is your problem.

It is also a straight-forward statement of something that no one has ever suggested was the case -- no one believes that Darwin's ideas are responsible for all origins.
Yet that is what you have asserted as a sensible question.
You are a moron.

Once you understand my new discoveries, your eyes and ignorance will be opened to the new reality...

That is non-responsive.

You are arguing in bad faith.

  
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2015,07:00   

Hello, Edgar,
           
Quote
Learning in animals are instinctual learning...thus, those animals that you had enumerated don't use intelligence but instinct only. Did you get me?

Learning is not instinct: behavior resulting from learning raises behavior above instinct, by all definitions of instinct.  Anything else is humpty-dumpty-ism.


             
Quote
Show me the difference between instinct and intelligence if you dis-agree. I will asking you after that.....
Asked and answered.  Even by your own highly problematic "more solutions than problems" criteria, some animals come up with multiple creative solutions.  Instinctive behavior is preprogrammed, innate, inborn behavior that cannot be modified creatively or voluntarily. A creative attempt at problem solving, even if it only produces one solution or even if that single creative attempt fails and is thus not a solution, is not instinctive.  



             
Quote
Your feet (1) and your eyes (2) and your mind (3) are all your defense mechanisms to protect your life with my threat (Xo).
 That is nonsense.  First, that's no different from the defense mechanisms utilized by every animal that has feet.  Second, defense mechanisms in us are much more instinctive than most of our behaviors.  Third, we definitely also use our hands in defense and often our teeth as well, plus we also use objects as weapons and actual weapons, which by your definition raises us well above a three to one ratio between solutions and problems, which takes us back out of intelligence.  Your only reason for trying to push the ludicrous claim that animal learning is instinctive is that for you humans must be intelligent and other animals must not be, so you will twist words and concepts any way you can to create that conclusion.


             
Quote
But if we apply that to the universe and Cosmos, the non-existence of universe and Cosmos are the collective problem.

The solution is the universe and Cosmos...thus, symmetrical but in the making of universe, the IA used a dual nature of particle and the IA had used an asymmetrical idea of

non-existence/existence....an asymmetrical.

If there is no IA, it is predicted that there will be no existence...

or there will always be an existence...but you will never have existence if you don't have non-existence, thus, through this, intelligence predicts that

1. IA, aka God, exists
2. IA had designed the universe and Cosmos...an intellen
 
That is sheer lunacy, a word salad meaningful only to you.

         
Quote
3. Thirsty and Drink: When you drink 100 ml soda with additional nutrients, then, you are an intellen since you are solving the problem of drinking 100 soda only with more additional healthy drink.
Not if you overdose on micronutrients.  How do you get a 1.5 ratio out of a fortified drink?  Do all the micronutrient levels have to be increased by at least 150% to count as an intelligent choice?  Your math is fraudulent: as shown by your listing of just three defense options, you are manipulating numbers to force your desired outcome.  (Your geometry is not better than the rest of your math: your question "how do you know if a square is not a rectangle?" is spectacularly incompetent, given that a square are merely a special form of a rectangle, because a rectangle is any quadrilateral with four right angles).  If your boss asks you to identify the best worker in the factory or the best of ten possible solutions, it is impossible by your definition to answer that intelligently.  However, if your boss asked for a paperclip, and you gave him one plus six-tenths of another paperclip was that an intelligent response?  If your boss asks generically for "some sugar", is it impossible to respond to that question intelligently (what is 1.5 times "some")?  Why aren't you distinguishing between one solution applied thrice and three different solutions applied once each?  Why doesn't a failed but creative solution count as intelligence (your criteria make your work non-intelligent by your definitions, by the way, given that it represents a failure rather than a solution).  Is using two hands rather than one hand two solutions or one?  How does one intelligently respond if your boss requests a barely subcritical mass of U-235?  You have to special-plead your way through most of the cases that arise in order to generate numbers that give you the conclusion you wanted at the beginning.

Sorry, Edgar, but your ideas aren't even out of the starting gate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v....dcT25ss

  
The whole truth



Posts: 1554
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2015,07:25   

Quote (MrIntelligentDesign @ Oct. 06 2015,02:23)
 
Quote (The whole truth @ Oct. 06 2015,01:24)
"In the new Intelligent Design <id>, the way you solve the problem with more solutions is called a principle. A principle is a method. Only an agent that knows intelligent knows this method."

Edgar, before this universe existed, was the non-existence of this universe a "problem"? If so, how many "solutions" did the "IA" (intelligent agent) use to solve the problem?

WOW!! You have a right question and a good question.

Actually, I've been lingering that question for almost three years in my mind after I discovered the real intelligence.

Yes, in the new intelligence that I've discovered, intelligence is always asymmetrical phenomenon..


If you write it in problem-solution idea, you will end like this

Existence = problem/solution

But if we apply that to the universe and Cosmos, the non-existence of universe and Cosmos are the collective problem.

The solution is the universe and Cosmos...thus, symmetrical but in the making of universe, the IA used a dual nature of particle and the IA had used an asymmetrical idea of

non-existence/existence....an asymmetrical.

If there is no IA, it is predicted that there will be no existence...

or there will always be an existence...but you will never have existence if you don't have non-existence, thus, through this, intelligence predicts that

1. IA, aka God, exists
2. IA had designed the universe and Cosmos...an intellen

That is why I am here for you to help me if I'm right or wrong...but so far, I'm still right since no one had ever find a replacement for my new discoveries...

Huh?

I have some other questions for you: Do you believe that this universe is the only one that exists and the only one that has ever existed? If so, do you see that as a "problem" that needs a "solution"? If you believe that other universes exist, how many universes do you believe there are? If 10 universes exist, why not 11? If a billion universes exist, why not a billion and one? If there are not an infinite number of universes in existence at all times, is that a "problem" that needs a "solution"? If the "IA" (aka intelligent designer, aka 'God') can create one universe, it must be able to create more universes and it must be able to create an infinite number of universes, right?

By the way, according to the bible (the so-called 'word of God' that your christian beliefs are based on) 'God' spoke this universe (including everything in it) into existence. 'God' did just one thing (spoke) to create everything. That's just one "solution" to the "problem", so 'God' must not be intelligent and must not have used intelligence to design-create anything or everything, right?

--------------
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2015,07:41   

Quote (MrIntelligentDesign @ Oct. 06 2015,05:05)
[quote=NoName,Oct. 05 2015,15:44]
Quote (MrIntelligentDesign @ Oct. 05 2015,16:23)
 
Many things could be quantified.  How do you quantify beauty, love, the precise point where purple becomes red or blue?  You are blinded by your overemphasis on math.
One shudders to think how bad your math skills are.

Oh, you are already out of your mind!

We are talking biological world and now your are talking about beauty, love,..??

Have you lost your mind?

No, you're simply not paying attention.
You insisted, without qualification or restriction, that adjectives could be quantified.
I've shown that you are wrong.
One of my examples even involves biology.  You're too dishonest to expend the effort to determine which one, and how it falsifies your claims.

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2015,07:46   

Quote (MrIntelligentDesign @ Oct. 06 2015,05:09)
[quote=NoName,Oct. 05 2015,16:13]
Quote (MrIntelligentDesign @ Oct. 05 2015,16:30)

You are incapable of drawing fine distinctions.

Existence simply is.  Individual things exist -- and they may come into existence and pass out of existence.
You focus your efforts on individual things.  But even there you go wrong -- integers exist, and are clearly not brought into existence nor do they go out of existence.  They are not caused, they just are.

Your assertion that I am trying to claim a PC just popped into existence without cause is unsupported by anything I've said.

Science only deals with a subset of existence.  Science does not concern itself with the existence of integers or of the laws of logic or geometry or calculus.  It uses them, but they already exist, always exist, and are uncaused.

You claim to be accounting for existence as such, and you assert that anything and everything which exists has a cause.
That is not just wrong, it is insane.
What does it mean to cause the number 2?
What does it mean to cause the Law of Identity or the Law of Excluded Middle?
They just are.
Without them, there is no science.

Why do you keep bringing Darwin into the discussion?
No one here is making the claim that the ToE is the explanation for every phenomenon.  Yet you persist in acting as if we did.
You are wrong, on this as on everything.

Specific things that exist, at least a subset of those which come into existence, persist for a while, then pass out of existence, can be effects.  That is equivalent to saying that they can be caused.

So here's a little problem for you -- one you cannot deal with.
Is a cause prior to its effect, or after its effect, or simultaneous with its effect?
Think carefully before you answer.

We agreed that there is existence. Now, how does existence exist? What is the principle behind it?

My new discovery shows that if any agent wanted X to exist, that agent must use intelligence since intelligence is always used universally.

Now, where is your explanation if you think that I'm wrong?

YOUR science has no power, no progress, no development and new explanation. Why should I accept that?

No, you remain confused by conflating 'existence' with 'an existence'.
Any particular existence may have a cause, but as my examples have already shown, it is not the case that all things which exist have a cause.

Your "conclusion" that 'intelligence is always used universally' does not follow from your premises.
It remains an unsupported, and in fact false, claim.

What created the integer 2?  What created the irrational number pi?  What created the Law of Identity?  

You have no science.
You have no explanation for anything at all.
"Anything requiring intelligence to come into existence requires an intelligent agent to bring it into existence" is not an explanation.

No one cares what you do or do not  accept.  Given that you are insane, your choice in beliefs is irrational.
Your impact on the world of science is not merely insignificant, it is zero.

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2015,07:47   

Quote (MrIntelligentDesign @ Oct. 06 2015,05:27)
Quote (dazz @ Oct. 06 2015,04:17)
Quote
Now, how does existence exist?


Priceless.

Look Edgar, I'm going to give you the best advise anybody could ever give you.

Keep all this to yourself in your everyday life, don't mention it at work in particular, just pretend it never happened. Concentrate on breathing and just keep going, one day at a time.

You're far too stupid to even begin to understand what science is all about, and you will never become an apologist either since you seem to be the kind of simpleton with no malice or desire to fool others.

Hilarious advice!

I don't need your advice. I am a discoverer in science and I am fine with that.

Lol!

Delusions of adequacy.
The ranting of a madman.
That's all that your output amounts to.
As this thread already demonstrates clearly.

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2015,08:01   

Quote (MrIntelligentDesign @ Oct. 06 2015,05:23)
   
Quote (The whole truth @ Oct. 06 2015,01:24)
"In the new Intelligent Design <id>, the way you solve the problem with more solutions is called a principle. A principle is a method. Only an agent that knows intelligent knows this method."

That is a very non-standard definition of 'principle'.
It is one you do not stick to and cannot apply consistently.
As we've seen.
Nor can you use it to solve problems, as we've also seen.
   
Quote
 
Quote
Edgar, before this universe existed, was the non-existence of this universe a "problem"? If so, how many "solutions" did the "IA" (intelligent agent) use to solve the problem?

WOW!! You have a right question and a good question.

So you are seriously proposing that something that does not exist causes everything to exist?
Yes, you are truly a madman.
   
Quote
...
Yes, in the new intelligence that I've discovered, intelligence is always asymmetrical phenomenon..

And yet you remain entirely unable to specify asymmetric with respect to what.  Around what axis or axes is it asymmetric?

   
Quote
If you write it in problem-solution idea, you will end like this

Existence = problem/solution

But if we apply that to the universe and Cosmos, the non-existence of universe and Cosmos are the collective problem.


It is a well-known pseudo-problem.
It is simply the old "why is there something rather than nothing?", which is neither scientific nor a valid question or problem.  It is a pseudo-problem.  This becomes clear when you think to ask "what could answer this question that does not count as a 'something'?".  There is no such thing.  There is something.  Full stop.  Existence as such is necessary, to use the old terminology.  Non-existence cannot be a cause, because it does not exist.
Once you understand the implications of the meanings involved, you understand that it is simply a brute fact that something exists.  There can be no 'first cause' that does not already exist.  Thus, there can be no first cause for 'existence as such'.
   
Quote
The solution is the universe and Cosmos...thus, symmetrical but in the making of universe, the IA used a dual nature of particle and the IA had used an asymmetrical idea of

non-existence/existence....an asymmetrical.

Word salad.
Existence/non-existence is strictly symmetrical.
There is no problem.  The universe 'and' Cosmos is not a solution, it just is.
   
Quote
If there is no IA, it is predicted that there will be no existence...

or there will always be an existence...but you will never have existence if you don't have non-existence,

As already noted, you are at least 2500 years late to the party.
Worse, you are insisting that non-existence nonetheless exists, as a counter-poise or required element to existence.
That sort of nonsense is what comes from ignorance and stupidity.  Your ignorance could be remedied by a thorough course of study in history, philosophy, and science.
Your stupidity, alas, appears to be inherent and irremediable.  I wonder what caused that?

 
Quote
thus, through this, intelligence predicts that

1. IA, aka God, exists
2. IA had designed the universe and Cosmos...an intellen

That is why I am here for you to help me if I'm right or wrong...but so far, I'm still right since no one had ever find a replacement for my new discoveries...

Well, you are entirely wrong, of course.
We've shown this, and we've shown why the insistence that someone replace what you have with something else is nonsense.
You have the phlogiston of causation theories.  The luminiferous ether of intelligence.
The solution to the "problems" you pose is simply to discard your notions.  The "problems" that so concern you are more trivial than the child's question "where do I go when I go to sleep?  How can I be sure when I wake up that I'm still me?"

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2015,09:48   

Quote (MrIntelligentDesign @ Oct. 05 2015,14:55)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 05 2015,13:35)
Quote (MrIntelligentDesign @ Oct. 04 2015,06:26)
 
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 04 2015,05:41)
 
Quote (MrIntelligentDesign @ Oct. 04 2015,03:06)
 
"Does your book take into account volume of submissions and effective bandwidth of the publication channel?"

This question remains unanswered. The assertion that rejection criteria must exist does not imply that the topic exists in the book, nor the specific elements of such criteria.

My science books did not use volume of submissions of many publication channel since almost all channels that I knew of were being tinted with wrong intelligence and ToE.

"No" is a simpler response.

Anyone who hasn't considered those elements of peer-review doesn't have anything useful to say on the topic, either in an isolated sentence or at book length, in my opinion.

In short, you are asking me to use those references for my science books in where ToE's explanations are included?

No, since evolution is best used for Geology and Earth science and not for Biology..

Edgar, you claim to have written a book on the topic of "peer-review". You stipulate that you have failed to include in your book-length analysis of "peer-review" essential characteristics of scientific publication. This has nothing to do with specific fields of science, nor have I said any such thing.

Try reading what I wrote again, this time for comprehension.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Texas Teach



Posts: 2084
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2015,16:03   

Quote (MrIntelligentDesign @ Oct. 06 2015,04:11)
Quote (Texas Teach @ Oct. 05 2015,17:27)
Quote (N.Wells @ Oct. 05 2015,09:04)
 
Quote (MrIntelligentDesign @ Oct. 05 2015,08:40)
 
Quote (The whole truth @ Oct. 05 2015,08:30)
Edgar, you say that animals are not intelligent. Crows are animals. Click on the links below:

http://io9.com/the-mys....0350033

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki.......an_crow

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2....48....486.stm

There are many more articles and videos about crows making and using tools, and crows aren't the only animals that make and use tools. And making and/or using tools isn't the only sign of intelligence.

Do you still say that humans are intelligent but all animals are not?

I did not say that animals have no instinct. I said that animals except humans exceeds the natural phenomena and they were incorrectly labeled as "intelligence". They are just using instinct.

I've already calculated that 1 is for natural process- naturen

1 ~ 1.499999999...is for instinct but it is still naturen

So, instinct is better than natural process alone..

Thus, tell those scientists and thinkers to follow me and not their incorrect mis-interpretation and incorrect explanation of biological world.

No one has disputed that animals are largely driven by instincts.  However, some of them, to varying degrees, surpass instinct.  Your 1.5 ratio is indefensible: you have to get results you want by relying on trivial examples and twisting the bejesus out of everything else to force it to fit your conclusions.  Many animals are clearly capable of generating creative solutions above and beyond their instinctive programming, which is intelligence in any rational sense of the word.  Crows are a very good example.  Elephants, dolphins and chimpanzees are even better examples.  Chimpanzees notably come up with multiple solutions to problems (e.g., cracking nuts, getting termites out of termitaries, impressing females & getting sex, acquiring food from others, getting food from tricky experimental set-ups).

You have also not demonstrated that intelligence excludes instinct as a primitive form of intelligence, although your definition of intellen clearly excludes it, and it's certainly within your prerogatives to invent and define new terms.

Even more damning for his notions than tool use is the research that shows that some tool use in chimps, orangutans, and dolphins is cultural.  It is learned.  It is specific to those individuals who have learned it from others, and is thus confined to specific groups.  I recall one example of tool use in Orangs that is different on two sides of a river because they don't cross that river.

Learning in animals are instinctual learning...thus, those animals that you had enumerated don't use intelligence but instinct only. Did you get me?

Show me the difference between instinct and intelligence if you dis-agree. I will asking you after that.....

If it's instinct, how come it only works after the animal is taught by another individual?  How come this "instinct" only occurs in some groups and not others?

Instinctive behaviors are inate.  They are "hard wired" in.  Learned behaviors are a sign of intelligence. If you want to claim that the ability to learn is instinct, then you are making a case for humans not being intelligent, and I don't think you want to go there.

I get that you desperately want learning in animals to be instinct, but the evidence is against you.

--------------
"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
rpenner



Posts: 10
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2015,20:19   

I could have saved a lot of time if I had checked here.

What makes a scientist different from a pontificating bag of wind? A scientific theory is a useful, precise, communicable framework for predicting the behavior of a wide variety of related observable phenomena. Saying ‘I don’t know’ is the beginning of learning about reality, not the end. Beware confirmation bias and intellectual dishonesty. The correspondence principle tells us something about future theories. Thus someone who is ignorant of biology and the long-running debate between Paley's “it looks designed” and Darwin's “it looks like complexity governed by stepwise adoption of variation” won't be able to argue forcefully from the best summaries of evidence.
Regarding purported “demonstrations and experiment[s] to show the real intelligence”: Churches, Ben Franklin, Lightning Rod. Also “GodDidIt” Or “NatureDidIt” is a false dilemma and NatureDidIt has two distinct meanings.
Two sophomoric misquotes analyzed. Also David Tenant's speech from  The Christmas Invasion abused.

Thanks for keeping up the good work.

  
MrIntelligentDesign



Posts: 405
Joined: Sep. 2015

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2015,05:49   

Quote (dazz @ Oct. 06 2015,04:55)
[quote=MrIntelligentDesign,Oct. 06 2015,04:29]
Quote (dazz @ Oct. 06 2015,03:19)
Quote (dazz @ Oct. 05 2015,18:49)

No answer, I'll have to keep waiting I guess.

In the mean time... you did it again. You insist once again that everything "symmetric" is "naturen"

Gods are not "made" right? So there's no X', which means gods are naturen, like boogers and farts... only that boogers and farts can be shown empirically to exist.

Your "not-a-theory" doesn't work the way you wanted it to, buddy

Please, be specific since this is a scientific discussion,.

I am not a fortune teller like you...

So I should be more specific? LMFAO

All you have are examples and more examples.

Quote
measure the feature of my X that made my X really X after I threat my X with Xo


This is meaningless drivel, impossible to apply without asking you what those X' and Xo are, so you can force your conclusion (god)

So there's no explanatory power in your "theory" (as with any claimed "universal" principle)
It's not repeatable.
You have no way to validate your claims empirically, you have no evidence
It's not falsifiable
It's not repeatable

...so it's not science, doesn't even look like it

Now, I got you!

You are making X as God...Lol!

Oh my goodness, are you really willing to discuss your religion here??

Lol!

  
MrIntelligentDesign



Posts: 405
Joined: Sep. 2015

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2015,05:51   

Quote (rpenner @ Oct. 06 2015,20:19)
I could have saved a lot of time if I had checked here.

What makes a scientist different from a pontificating bag of wind? A scientific theory is a useful, precise, communicable framework for predicting the behavior of a wide variety of related observable phenomena. Saying ‘I don’t know’ is the beginning of learning about reality, not the end. Beware confirmation bias and intellectual dishonesty. The correspondence principle tells us something about future theories. Thus someone who is ignorant of biology and the long-running debate between Paley's “it looks designed” and Darwin's “it looks like complexity governed by stepwise adoption of variation” won't be able to argue forcefully from the best summaries of evidence.
Regarding purported “demonstrations and experiment[s] to show the real intelligence”: Churches, Ben Franklin, Lightning Rod. Also “GodDidIt” Or “NatureDidIt” is a false dilemma and NatureDidIt has two distinct meanings.
Two sophomoric misquotes analyzed. Also David Tenant's speech from  The Christmas Invasion abused.

Thanks for keeping up the good work.

If we used that criteria to ToE, ToE collapsed instantly.

  
MrIntelligentDesign



Posts: 405
Joined: Sep. 2015

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2015,05:54   

Quote (Texas Teach @ Oct. 06 2015,16:03)
[quote=MrIntelligentDesign,Oct. 06 2015,04:11]
If it's instinct, how come it only works after the animal is taught by another individual?  How come this "instinct" only occurs in some groups and not others?

Instinctive behaviors are inate.  They are "hard wired" in.  Learned behaviors are a sign of intelligence. If you want to claim that the ability to learn is instinct, then you are making a case for humans not being intelligent, and I don't think you want to go there.

I get that you desperately want learning in animals to be instinct, but the evidence is against you.

What are you talking about?

When a mother hens taught their chicks to eat foods and find foods, the chicks are not doing intelligence.

That is a very simple example of individual taught by another individual in animals..

Learned behaviors are not intelligence since any animals must learn since they don't know many things. That is symmetry...

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2015,06:33   

Quote (MrIntelligentDesign @ Oct. 07 2015,06:51)
Quote (rpenner @ Oct. 06 2015,20:19)
I could have saved a lot of time if I had checked here.

What makes a scientist different from a pontificating bag of wind? A scientific theory is a useful, precise, communicable framework for predicting the behavior of a wide variety of related observable phenomena. Saying ‘I don’t know’ is the beginning of learning about reality, not the end. Beware confirmation bias and intellectual dishonesty. The correspondence principle tells us something about future theories. Thus someone who is ignorant of biology and the long-running debate between Paley's “it looks designed” and Darwin's “it looks like complexity governed by stepwise adoption of variation” won't be able to argue forcefully from the best summaries of evidence.
Regarding purported “demonstrations and experiment[s] to show the real intelligence”: Churches, Ben Franklin, Lightning Rod. Also “GodDidIt” Or “NatureDidIt” is a false dilemma and NatureDidIt has two distinct meanings.
Two sophomoric misquotes analyzed. Also David Tenant's speech from  The Christmas Invasion abused.

Thanks for keeping up the good work.

If we used that criteria to ToE, ToE collapsed instantly.

Proving, yet again, that you know less than nothing about biology or the ToE.

Pontificating from a position of ignorance is vile behavior, Edgar.

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2015,06:35   

Quote (MrIntelligentDesign @ Oct. 07 2015,06:54)
[quote=Texas Teach,Oct. 06 2015,16:03]
Quote (MrIntelligentDesign @ Oct. 06 2015,04:11)

If it's instinct, how come it only works after the animal is taught by another individual?  How come this "instinct" only occurs in some groups and not others?

Instinctive behaviors are inate.  They are "hard wired" in.  Learned behaviors are a sign of intelligence. If you want to claim that the ability to learn is instinct, then you are making a case for humans not being intelligent, and I don't think you want to go there.

I get that you desperately want learning in animals to be instinct, but the evidence is against you.

What are you talking about?

When a mother hens taught their chicks to eat foods and find foods, the chicks are not doing intelligence.

That is a very simple example of individual taught by another individual in animals..

Learned behaviors are not intelligence since any animals must learn since they don't know many things. That is symmetry...

Wrong, as always.

If it is instinct, it is not learned.  This is easily shown.
Raise chicks without benefit of a mother hen to teach them to forage.
They forage regardless, and do so in the same fashion as chicks raised by hens.

On the other hand, learned behavior is not instinctive.
As demonstrated by the examples you've already ignored up-thread.

You persist in arguing in bad faith, as well as error.

  
The whole truth



Posts: 1554
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2015,06:47   

Quote (MrIntelligentDesign @ Oct. 07 2015,03:54)
[quote=Texas Teach,Oct. 06 2015,16:03]
Quote (MrIntelligentDesign @ Oct. 06 2015,04:11)

If it's instinct, how come it only works after the animal is taught by another individual?  How come this "instinct" only occurs in some groups and not others?

Instinctive behaviors are inate.  They are "hard wired" in.  Learned behaviors are a sign of intelligence. If you want to claim that the ability to learn is instinct, then you are making a case for humans not being intelligent, and I don't think you want to go there.

I get that you desperately want learning in animals to be instinct, but the evidence is against you.

What are you talking about?

When a mother hens taught their chicks to eat foods and find foods, the chicks are not doing intelligence.

That is a very simple example of individual taught by another individual in animals..

Learned behaviors are not intelligence since any animals must learn since they don't know many things. That is symmetry...

How do you determine that humans are intelligent? What is the difference between animals and humans that makes you believe and say that humans are intelligent but animals are not?

--------------
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2015,06:55   

Sorry, too early here.

  
tsig



Posts: 339
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2015,06:55   

Quote (MrIntelligentDesign @ Oct. 01 2015,14:46)
Quote (OgreMkV @ Oct. 01 2015,14:28)
MrID,

Here's my question. Given a system, can you tell if it is intelligent or not? Here's a few, tell why... using your purely OBJECTIVE criteria.



Remember, it must be objective. Not your subjective opinions... the paperclip was a really poor example, because the determination of intelligence was made by changing the PoV of the person asking the question... unless you are saying that intelligence is a purely quantum wavefunction that an intelligent system can collapse...

I've said that real intelligence is always being used in ORIGIN and CAUSE & EFFECT.

ticks...intellen since ticks have defense mechanisms


an HVAC system...intellen since it is too obvious..


an uncut 40 carat diamond...i don't know, probably naturen


a cut 40 carat diamond...intellen since it is to obvious


a human in a medically induced coma with severe brain damage...human itself is intellen since it has a defense mechanism



a dolphin (Tursiops truncatus)....intellen since it has a defense mechanism

This is supiden.

  
The whole truth



Posts: 1554
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2015,07:52   

Edgar, you said:

"What I said was that, if X is you as human, you are intellen.

How do we know?

If I threat you as to kill you, you either fight back or move away..

Your feet (1) and your eyes (2) and your mind (3) are all your defense mechanisms to protect your life with my threat (Xo).

In this example,

your feet is X', eyes is X' and mind is X'...three features that support you to live."

Edgar, do you actually believe that NO animals have feet, eyes, and a mind, and that NO animals will either fight back or move away or both? Many animals have more ways to defend themselves or move away from threats than humans do.


ETA: changed the wording a bit.

Edited by The whole truth on Oct. 07 2015,06:02

--------------
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
The whole truth



Posts: 1554
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2015,08:24   

Hey wait a second, Edgar, you said that animals are not intelligent, that they use instinct only, and that they are therefor "naturen", but you also say that ticks and dolphins are "intellen" (intelligent) because they have a defense mechanism. Can you name some animals that have no defense mechanism?

--------------
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
k.e..



Posts: 5432
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2015,10:10   

Quote (The whole truth @ Oct. 07 2015,16:24)
Hey wait a second, Edgar, you said that animals are not intelligent, that they use instinct only, and that they are therefor "naturen", but you also say that ticks and dolphins are "intellen" (intelligent) because they have a defense mechanism. Can you name some animals that have no defense mechanism?

Mr Postcardo uses instinct when arguing therefore he is less intelligent than a tick.

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
Woodbine



Posts: 1218
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2015,10:22   

Quote (k.e.. @ Oct. 07 2015,16:10)
Quote (The whole truth @ Oct. 07 2015,16:24)
Hey wait a second, Edgar, you said that animals are not intelligent, that they use instinct only, and that they are therefor "naturen", but you also say that ticks and dolphins are "intellen" (intelligent) because they have a defense mechanism. Can you name some animals that have no defense mechanism?

Mr Postcardo uses instinct when arguing therefore he is less intelligent than a tick.

A tarden?

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2015,12:10   

Quote (The whole truth @ Oct. 07 2015,06:24)
Can you name some animals that have no defense mechanism?

Chelsea FC, at the moment.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
rpenner



Posts: 10
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2015,12:32   

Quote (MrIntelligentDesign @ Oct. 07 2015,05:51)
Quote (rpenner @ Oct. 06 2015,20:19)

What makes a scientist different from a pontificating bag of wind? A scientific theory is a useful, precise, communicable framework for predicting the behavior of a wide variety of related observable phenomena. Saying ‘I don’t know’ is the beginning of learning about reality, not the end. Beware confirmation bias and intellectual dishonesty. The correspondence principle tells us something about future theories. Thus someone who is ignorant of biology and the long-running debate between Paley's “it looks designed” and Darwin's “it looks like complexity governed by stepwise adoption of variation” won't be able to argue forcefully from the best summaries of evidence.

If we used that criteria to ToE, ToE collapsed instantly.

Why quote more of the post than that which you are responding to? Are you trying to pretend that you read all of it or that your single line response is an effective of all of it?

Yes, it is easy to claim “[the theory of evolution] collapsed instantly” because that's just a matter of pushing the right keys. But these words seem particularly hollow when their author doesn't support them in the least.

A pontificating bag of wind is exactly the type of person who would not see any need to support his claims.

On the other hand, I have supported each of the points I made about scientific theories with respect to the theory of evolution. I linked to numerous examples of its useful predictiveness and precision. Another example is human chromosome two which you carry a few copies of which in detail strongly confirms that humans and chimpanzees had a common ancestral population. As for the point I ignored, since it was so obvious, the theory of evolution is communicable but as a civil engineer, we assume you never took the relevant college-level course to learn about biology topics. So you view that as opportunity for growth.

  
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2015,12:42   

Quote (JohnW @ Oct. 07 2015,12:10)
Quote (The whole truth @ Oct. 07 2015,06:24)
Can you name some animals that have no defense mechanism?

Chelsea FC, at the moment.

Yeah, but has anyone claimed that the current team is intelligent?
:)

  
ChemiCat



Posts: 532
Joined: Nov. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2015,13:42   

Quote
Yeah, but has anyone claimed that the current team is intelligent?


That must mean Postcardo is a shoe-in to play for them.

  
Quack



Posts: 1961
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2015,15:17   

Quote
No one cares what you do or do not  accept.  Given that you are insane, your choice in beliefs is irrational.
Your impact on the world of science is not merely insignificant, it is zero.


I'd say closer to 0°K.

--------------
Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
MrIntelligentDesign



Posts: 405
Joined: Sep. 2015

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2015,15:57   

Quote (The whole truth @ Oct. 07 2015,08:24)
Hey wait a second, Edgar, you said that animals are not intelligent, that they use instinct only, and that they are therefor "naturen", but you also say that ticks and dolphins are "intellen" (intelligent) because they have a defense mechanism. Can you name some animals that have no defense mechanism?

Since all animals are intellen, then, it is expected and predicted that all of them have defense mechanisms...

  
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