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stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2015,14:02    Quote (Learned Hand @ Sep. 02 2015,14:51) This is a bit off-topic, and feel free to move it wherever it belongs, but in the spirit of positive engagement (and in the spirit of doing a hell of a lot better than "You're a liar for disagreeing with me!"), I'm running a fundraising campaign to defray the costs of attending a unique conference. It's part of research for the book I'm writing: http://www.gofundme.com/ss29jrf....s29jrfk I'd appreciate your sharing the link by whatever channels you use, if you're so inclined. Thank you! Interesting plan, Colin, I hope you have luck with it. Michael Shermer's book Why People Believe Weird Things was a bit of a letdown, maybe you'll have more insight. Speaking of insight, you've been putting in some time at UD, do you have any novel observations of that crowd?

Learned Hand Posts: 214 Joined: Oct. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2015,16:36    Haven't read Shermer's book, but I loved Jon Ronson's "Them." I like his writing generally, so I'm biased, but it's very good, both stylistically and substantively. I love love love love his account of going with Alex Jones to infiltrate the Bilderberg group; you get to see his dry, careful, factual account of events contrasted while Jones, talking about the same events, builds a wild and exaggerated narrative for himself. So when the regroup after the infiltration, Ronson is thinking, "That was kind of weird, but not a big deal, just some rich guys blowing off steam..." while Jones is ranting about the demonic worship service they just saw, and checking in with people to confirm and build the narrative: "Did you see their Satanic robes? Did you see how evil they looked? Did you hear that crazy chanting?" (Not real quotes, of course.) UD is pretty diverse. BA and SB fit into something I've been thinking about a lot lately: building walls. I think a lot of their efforts go into making sure their beliefs are protected from criticism or scrutiny. I used to think it was mostly self-gratification to call someone a liar, or a garbage spewer, or whatnot. And for BA I still think it is; he gets off on it as far as I can tell. SB doesn't seem to relish it as much. He insults with a kind of monotonic intentness, without the rhetorical flourishes, but takes it deadly seriously. I think one reason people get stuck in that hostile, antagonistic mindset is that they're building a wall. The more SB and BA define people who question them as liars or idiots, the less cause they have to ever think about those questions. If they feel some uncertainty in not being able to rigorously support their beliefs, building that wall would be an answer. Not to the uncertainty itself, but to the feeling of it. It gives them an incentive to attack, rather than think. That's not to say that it's something "they" do. For two reasons. One is that "us vs. them" is the primary tool in building walls. Why would I listen to what THEY have to say? They're THEM. The other is that we do it do. Hell, I do it. When I make fun of KF by mocking his writing style, I'm making it harder for myself to pay attention to the substance of what he's saying. (But I'm not making it as hard as he's making it by writing that way. Zing!) So it's not the worst thing in the world, and it's probably inevitable to a certain extent. But I think self-awareness is important, and I don't think SB or BA are, or want to be, aware of why they inject so much nastiness into every conversation.

Ptaylor Posts: 1180 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2015,20:03    Quote (Learned Hand @ Sep. 03 2015,09:36) I think one reason people get stuck in that hostile, antagonistic mindset is that they're building a wall. The more SB and BA define people who question them as liars or idiots, the less cause they have to ever think about those questions. If they feel some uncertainty in not being able to rigorously support their beliefs, building that wall would be an answer. Not to the uncertainty itself, but to the feeling of it. It gives them an incentive to attack, rather than think. Almost as if to confirm this, witness the current dialogue between Barry and StephenB, for the moment ending with: Quote 158 StephenBSeptember 2, 2015 at 6:17 pm Barry, Quote    Learned Hand has gone into insane denial mode. He seems to be saying he cannot be infallibly certain that a slice of a pizza cannot be larger than the whole pizza. Idiot. I don’t see any sense engaging with him further. We’ve led him by the hand enough for one day. Barry, I agree. There is no further need for dialogue. To survive in the moment, he agreed that it cannot be so, but he has now reverted to the insane denial mode. UD link -------------- We no longer say: “Another day; another bad day for Darwinism.” We now say: “Another day since the time Darwinism was disproved.” -PaV, Uncommon Descent, 19 June 2016

Acartia_Bogart Posts: 2927 Joined: Sep. 2014 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2015,23:09    Quote (Ptaylor @ Sep. 02 2015,20:03) Quote (Learned Hand @ Sep. 03 2015,09:36) I think one reason people get stuck in that hostile, antagonistic mindset is that they're building a wall. The more SB and BA define people who question them as liars or idiots, the less cause they have to ever think about those questions. If they feel some uncertainty in not being able to rigorously support their beliefs, building that wall would be an answer. Not to the uncertainty itself, but to the feeling of it. It gives them an incentive to attack, rather than think. Almost as if to confirm this, witness the current dialogue between Barry and StephenB, for the moment ending with:   Quote 158 StephenBSeptember 2, 2015 at 6:17 pm Barry,   Quote    Learned Hand has gone into insane denial mode. He seems to be saying he cannot be infallibly certain that a slice of a pizza cannot be larger than the whole pizza. Idiot. I don’t see any sense engaging with him further. We’ve led him by the hand enough for one day. Barry, I agree. There is no further need for dialogue. To survive in the moment, he agreed that it cannot be so, but he has now reverted to the insane denial mode. UD link Damn, and I like pizza.

OgreMkV Posts: 3668 Joined: Oct. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2015,23:26    Quote (Ptaylor @ Sep. 02 2015,20:03) Quote (Learned Hand @ Sep. 03 2015,09:36) I think one reason people get stuck in that hostile, antagonistic mindset is that they're building a wall. The more SB and BA define people who question them as liars or idiots, the less cause they have to ever think about those questions. If they feel some uncertainty in not being able to rigorously support their beliefs, building that wall would be an answer. Not to the uncertainty itself, but to the feeling of it. It gives them an incentive to attack, rather than think. Almost as if to confirm this, witness the current dialogue between Barry and StephenB, for the moment ending with:   Quote 158 StephenBSeptember 2, 2015 at 6:17 pm Barry,   Quote    Learned Hand has gone into insane denial mode. He seems to be saying he cannot be infallibly certain that a slice of a pizza cannot be larger than the whole pizza. Idiot. I don’t see any sense engaging with him further. We’ve led him by the hand enough for one day. Barry, I agree. There is no further need for dialogue. To survive in the moment, he agreed that it cannot be so, but he has now reverted to the insane denial mode. UD link If you're talking about surface area, then why not slice the pizza parallel to the table it's sitting on (about 3/4 of the way through), then fold it out. Sliced pizza now larger than the original. -------------- Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims. http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

Woodbine Posts: 1218 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 02 2015,23:39    Stephen B is the chap who believes the fall of Rome was because of the HOMOS - after seeing the Whitehouse lit up in rainbow colours his mind is most likely shattered. Probably stocking up on tinned goods as we speak.

Zachriel Posts: 2723 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2015,07:20    Quote (Ptaylor @ Sep. 02 2015,20:03) Quote (Learned Hand @ Sep. 03 2015,09:36) I think one reason people get stuck in that hostile, antagonistic mindset is that they're building a wall. The more SB and BA define people who question them as liars or idiots, the less cause they have to ever think about those questions. If they feel some uncertainty in not being able to rigorously support their beliefs, building that wall would be an answer. Not to the uncertainty itself, but to the feeling of it. It gives them an incentive to attack, rather than think. Almost as if to confirm this, witness the current dialogue between Barry and StephenB, for the moment ending with:   Quote 158 StephenBSeptember 2, 2015 at 6:17 pm Barry,   Quote    Learned Hand has gone into insane denial mode. He seems to be saying he cannot be infallibly certain that a slice of a pizza cannot be larger than the whole pizza. Idiot. I don’t see any sense engaging with him further. We’ve led him by the hand enough for one day. Barry, I agree. There is no further need for dialogue. To survive in the moment, he agreed that it cannot be so, but he has now reverted to the insane denial mode. UD link Acartia_Bogart's example is better, but another might be that enriched uranium is more valuable than uranium ore, the part being greater than the whole. Edited by Zachriel on Sep. 03 2015,07:22 -------------- You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

Quack Posts: 1961 Joined: May 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2015,09:10    Learned Hand said:   Quote But I think self-awareness is important, and I don't think SB or BA are, or want to be, aware of why they inject so much nastiness into every conversation. Important, but not so much if you think you already know the truth and you 'know' that nobody can change your mind about that. To me it always was important because right from early childhood my purpose was to find out what's true and what's not, because I knew I only wanted to know the truth no matter if it went this way or the other. Too many people never get such a golden opportunity, they are being indoctrinated from very early in their life and I read somewhere not long ago that what you have been taught to believe before you really learn to think for yourself, it get's stuck and unlearning may be both painful and difficult to obtain. Few people are lucky enough to be able to cast off the chains of early dogmatication. -------------- Rocks have no biology.               Robert Byers.

Zachriel Posts: 2723 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2015,09:56    Quote Ann Gauger: Given a choice between a simple two-step path leading to repair of two genes needed to make tryptophan, versus a one-step path that eliminated expression of the those genes, only one out of a trillion cells went down the path toward making tryptophan, even though that path would ultimately be much more beneficial.   There are about 100 trillion bacteria in each of 7 billion human guts (not to mention their cattle). So, per Ann Gauger, evolution of the recovered gene was virtually inevitable. edit: typo. Edited by Zachriel on Sep. 03 2015,09:58 -------------- You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

k.e.. Posts: 5432 Joined: May 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2015,10:37    Quote (Zachriel @ Sep. 03 2015,15:20) Quote (Ptaylor @ Sep. 02 2015,20:03)   Quote (Learned Hand @ Sep. 03 2015,09:36) I think one reason people get stuck in that hostile, antagonistic mindset is that they're building a wall. The more SB and BA define people who question them as liars or idiots, the less cause they have to ever think about those questions. If they feel some uncertainty in not being able to rigorously support their beliefs, building that wall would be an answer. Not to the uncertainty itself, but to the feeling of it. It gives them an incentive to attack, rather than think. Almost as if to confirm this, witness the current dialogue between Barry and StephenB, for the moment ending with:     Quote 158 StephenBSeptember 2, 2015 at 6:17 pm Barry,     Quote    Learned Hand has gone into insane denial mode. He seems to be saying he cannot be infallibly certain that a slice of a pizza cannot be larger than the whole pizza. Idiot. I don’t see any sense engaging with him further. We’ve led him by the hand enough for one day. Barry, I agree. There is no further need for dialogue. To survive in the moment, he agreed that it cannot be so, but he has now reverted to the insane denial mode. UD link Acartia_Bogart's example is better, but another might be that enriched uranium is more valuable than uranium ore, the part being greater than the whole. mmmmmm nucular pizza -------------- "I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit "ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus "I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

k.e.. Posts: 5432 Joined: May 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2015,10:39    Quote (Quack @ Sep. 03 2015,17:10) Learned Hand said:     Quote But I think self-awareness is important, and I don't think SB or BA are, or want to be, aware of why they inject so much nastiness into every conversation. Important, but not so much if you think you already know the truth and you 'know' that nobody can change your mind about that. To me it always was important because right from early childhood my purpose was to find out what's true and what's not, because I knew I only wanted to know the truth no matter if it went this way or the other. Too many people never get such a golden opportunity, they are being indoctrinated from very early in their life and I read somewhere not long ago that what you have been taught to believe before you really learn to think for yourself, it get's stuck and unlearning may be both painful and difficult to obtain. Few people are lucky enough to be able to cast off the chains of early dogmatication. I'm guessing your parents weren't fundies? -------------- "I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit "ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus "I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

Learned Hand Posts: 214 Joined: Oct. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2015,11:06    Episcopalians, from a conservative Texas denomination. (Not conservative enough to schism over the issue of gay marriage, but conservative enough to lose members to those churches that did.) They go every week. My dad's pretty openly religious; I'm not sure about mom. She firmly believes that your religion is your business, and her religion is her business, and that's that. I honestly don't know if she attends out of belief or because she likes the community. I think that attitude stuck with me in a lot of ways.

CeilingCat Posts: 2363 Joined: Dec. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2015,11:58    As Bat ' s Ass 77 would say, this is off topic, but,,,, I was reading the article on Francis Schaffer on Wikipedia .  (He was a wine sipping, cheese nibbling fundamentalist poser of poseurs who was instrumental in starting Conservative Christianity down the "Abortion is Killing Babies" route, which in turn led to the entry of CC into politics.) Schaeffer started post grad work at Westminster Theological Seminary.  Then     Quote In 1937, Schaeffer transferred to Faith Theological Seminary, graduating in 1938. This seminary was newly formed as a result of a split between the Presbyterian Church of America (now the Orthodox Presbyterian Church) and the Bible Presbyterian Church, a Presbyteriandenomination more identified with Fundamentalist Christianity and premillennialism. Schaeffer was the first student to graduate and the first to be ordained in the Bible Presbyterian Church. He served pastorates in Pennsylvania (Grove City and Chester) and St. Louis, Missouri. Schaeffer eventually sided with the Bible Presbyterian Church Columbus Synod following the BPC Collingswood and BPC Columbus Split and became a member of the Reformed Presbyterian Church, Evangelical Synod when the Bible Presbyterian Church's Columbus Synod merged with the Reformed Presbyterian Church's Columbus Synod in 1965,[6] a denomination which would merge with the Presbyterian Church in America, in 1982.  Not only does every denomination have The Truth, you get to choose The Truth that appeals to you.  Ditto for Absolute Morality. Sweet. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki.......haeffer

Learned Hand Posts: 214 Joined: Oct. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2015,12:22    And people get fierce over those divisions! I read Schaeffer's son's book "Crazy for God" years ago. It was interesting, if not a classic; worth flipping through in the bookstore at least. I'd love for BA to write a book sometime. "SHUT UP LIAR IDIOT: Infallible meditations on sharing the perfect love of Jesus Christ." Edited by stevestory on Sep. 03 2015,13:49

J-Dog Posts: 4402 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2015,16:32    From Emo Phillips(although I am sure I can hear BatShit77 and Gordo repeating this with minor variation...) Quote Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?" He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!" Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over. -------------- Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10 Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08 UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

Ptaylor Posts: 1180 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 03 2015,21:02    Well done, Learned Hand. (UD link above) Edited by Ptaylor on Sep. 04 2015,14:03 -------------- We no longer say: “Another day; another bad day for Darwinism.” We now say: “Another day since the time Darwinism was disproved.” -PaV, Uncommon Descent, 19 June 2016

Quack Posts: 1961 Joined: May 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 04 2015,02:32    Quote (k.e.. @ Sep. 03 2015,10:39)   Quote (Quack @ Sep. 03 2015,17:10) Learned Hand said:       Quote But I think self-awareness is important, and I don't think SB or BA are, or want to be, aware of why they inject so much nastiness into every conversation. Important, but not so much if you think you already know the truth and you 'know' that nobody can change your mind about that. To me it always was important because right from early childhood my purpose was to find out what's true and what's not, because I knew I only wanted to know the truth no matter if it went this way or the other. Too many people never get such a golden opportunity, they are being indoctrinated from very early in their life and I read somewhere not long ago that what you have been taught to believe before you really learn to think for yourself, it get's stuck and unlearning may be both painful and difficult to obtain. Few people are lucky enough to be able to cast off the chains of early dogmatication. I'm guessing your parents weren't fundies? You're so right. They were, like what I believe most people here at that time, rather secular. I know my mother was a believer, and she joined the Seventh Day Adventists late in life. My father, I don't know. But spanking was not in their repertoire. What religion we were exposed to, we got in school.  But even there, it was mostly about learning selected pieces from the Bible. They made little sense to me. When at thirteen I stumbled across Australopithecus and other interesting things I decided it was time to let the Bible go. -------------- Rocks have no biology.               Robert Byers.

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 04 2015,17:26    Quote 195 sean samisSeptember 4, 2015 at 3:07 pm I think this debate between kairosfocus and myself is coming to its effective end. Our arguments are beginning to become repetitious; I’ve seen all KF has, and all I can do is remind him of why he is wrong. I’m sure KF feels exactly the same way about me and mine. Now kairosfocus is so frustrated at his inability to change my mind that KF’s beginning to insinuate that I must be evil. That is a sign that this needs to end. Wide-spread belief in kairosfocus’s “world-root-level” grounding of morality does absolutely no good for preventing evil. It did not stop the thousands of Germans who committed the Holocaust, or the thousands of Polish, Russian, French, Dutch etc. collaborators who were accomplices in that crime. It did not stop 19th century pogroms in Imperial Russia. It didn’t stop the African Slave Trade or Southern lynchings or Jim Crow laws. It didn’t stop the Wars of Religion in Europe, nor mass-murder of Jews in medieval Germany, nor witch burnings, heretic burnings, and on and on and on. It doesn’t stop Christians from getting abortions today, a problem so great that some churches and denominations struggle to find ways to minister to members who’ve gotten abortions. It doesn’t stop conservative politicians who take money away from programs intended to serve poor children and mothers so they can lower taxes for the wealthy. Strangly; “godless” Europeans have fewer abortions than we Religious Americans do. And they take better care of their children too. Are those related facts? Probably. In any event, belief in kairosfocus’s “world-root-level” grounding of morality does absolutely no good for preventing any of these evils. Is the solution to the crisis of abortion to proclaim “Ontology!”? Will that change hearts and minds? Would my alternative, a moral system based on the mandate of the Golden Rule and founded on Reason and Facts of Nature do better? I think so because it does not try to leverage beliefs in deities. Deities have been and are used to justify all manner of horror because “God said so, and God’s ways are mysterious.” All those horrors I mentioned above were supported by religious leaders in the name of their God. And now we have Godly believers who won’t take their children to doctors, who throw acid at little children, who destroy antiquities, who induce children to become sex-slaves and child-soldiers and suicide bombers, who go to the funerals of fallen soldiers and cheer the weapons that killed them. Think of all the conflict zones in the world; how many are driven by religious disagreements? Most are. I cannot think of a war in all of history where religious leaders on either side (much less BOTH sides!) were like: “Hold on there! This is wrong!” Mark Twain’s War Prayer got it right. My morality replaces God with Reason and Facts. Oh for sure people can and will dispute Reason and Facts (just like they do theistic ideas) but because reason and facts are accessible to all, there is no claiming that “Reason’s ways are mysterious”; reasons ways are reasonable by definition. Facts are facts. My alternative is not perfect, but that’s not the standard we need meet. We just need better. And boy! Do we need better! Kairosfocus is part of the team that runs UD (or so it appears) so I will give him the last word on this thread. Thank you all for your kind attention. sean s. linky

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 04 2015,20:28    I expected to find the Spanish Inquisition in that list, but didn't find it!

Acartia_Bogart Posts: 2927 Joined: Sep. 2014 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 04 2015,21:00    Quote (stevestory @ Sep. 04 2015,17:26) Quote 195 sean samisSeptember 4, 2015 at 3:07 pm I think this debate between kairosfocus and myself is coming to its effective end. Our arguments are beginning to become repetitious; I’ve seen all KF has, and all I can do is remind him of why he is wrong. I’m sure KF feels exactly the same way about me and mine. Now kairosfocus is so frustrated at his inability to change my mind that KF’s beginning to insinuate that I must be evil. That is a sign that this needs to end. Wide-spread belief in kairosfocus’s “world-root-level” grounding of morality does absolutely no good for preventing evil. It did not stop the thousands of Germans who committed the Holocaust, or the thousands of Polish, Russian, French, Dutch etc. collaborators who were accomplices in that crime. It did not stop 19th century pogroms in Imperial Russia. It didn’t stop the African Slave Trade or Southern lynchings or Jim Crow laws. It didn’t stop the Wars of Religion in Europe, nor mass-murder of Jews in medieval Germany, nor witch burnings, heretic burnings, and on and on and on. It doesn’t stop Christians from getting abortions today, a problem so great that some churches and denominations struggle to find ways to minister to members who’ve gotten abortions. It doesn’t stop conservative politicians who take money away from programs intended to serve poor children and mothers so they can lower taxes for the wealthy. Strangly; “godless” Europeans have fewer abortions than we Religious Americans do. And they take better care of their children too. Are those related facts? Probably. In any event, belief in kairosfocus’s “world-root-level” grounding of morality does absolutely no good for preventing any of these evils. Is the solution to the crisis of abortion to proclaim “Ontology!”? Will that change hearts and minds? Would my alternative, a moral system based on the mandate of the Golden Rule and founded on Reason and Facts of Nature do better? I think so because it does not try to leverage beliefs in deities. Deities have been and are used to justify all manner of horror because “God said so, and God’s ways are mysterious.” All those horrors I mentioned above were supported by religious leaders in the name of their God. And now we have Godly believers who won’t take their children to doctors, who throw acid at little children, who destroy antiquities, who induce children to become sex-slaves and child-soldiers and suicide bombers, who go to the funerals of fallen soldiers and cheer the weapons that killed them. Think of all the conflict zones in the world; how many are driven by religious disagreements? Most are. I cannot think of a war in all of history where religious leaders on either side (much less BOTH sides!) were like: “Hold on there! This is wrong!” Mark Twain’s War Prayer got it right. My morality replaces God with Reason and Facts. Oh for sure people can and will dispute Reason and Facts (just like they do theistic ideas) but because reason and facts are accessible to all, there is no claiming that “Reason’s ways are mysterious”; reasons ways are reasonable by definition. Facts are facts. My alternative is not perfect, but that’s not the standard we need meet. We just need better. And boy! Do we need better! Kairosfocus is part of the team that runs UD (or so it appears) so I will give him the last word on this thread. Thank you all for your kind attention. sean s. linky And Gordon (KairosFocus) Mulling's response: Quote SS, at this point, with all due respect things like the chain of warrant are not on trial, you are. Likewise, it is patent that do to neighbour as you would be done by teaches morality well but cannot ontologically found it, where some sobering history on dehumanising to abuse shows the urgency of such grounding. And so the verdict is in, you can only play the I declare rhetorical victory card. Sad, in the end. KF One comment is logical, well constructed and easy to understand. The other one is KF's.

fnxtr Posts: 3504 Joined: June 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 04 2015,22:41    Quote (Acartia_Bogart @ Sep. 04 2015,19:00) [quote=stevestory,Sep. 04 2015,17:26] And Gordon (KairosFocus) Mulling's response: Quote SS, at this point, with all due respect things like the chain of warrant are not on trial, you are. Likewise, it is patent that do to neighbour as you would be done by teaches morality well but cannot ontologically found it, where some sobering history on dehumanising to abuse shows the urgency of such grounding. And so the verdict is in, you can only play the I declare rhetorical victory card. Sad, in the end. KF One comment is logical, well constructed and easy to understand. The other one is KF's. Seriously, who talks like that? -------------- "[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory "Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

REC Posts: 638 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 04 2015,23:43    Quote (fnxtr @ Sep. 04 2015,22:41) [quote=Acartia_Bogart,Sep. 04 2015,19:00] Quote (stevestory @ Sep. 04 2015,17:26) And Gordon (KairosFocus) Mulling's response:   Quote SS, at this point, with all due respect things like the chain of warrant are not on trial, you are. Likewise, it is patent that do to neighbour as you would be done by teaches morality well but cannot ontologically found it, where some sobering history on dehumanising to abuse shows the urgency of such grounding. And so the verdict is in, you can only play the I declare rhetorical victory card. Sad, in the end. KF One comment is logical, well constructed and easy to understand. The other one is KF's. Seriously, who talks like that? Upright Biped comes close--in defending his odd claims about the magic that is translation of RNA to protein he resorts to word salad + a few insults: Quote Rec, having a certain amino acid presented for binding at a certain point in time is a translated effect. Keep that in mind – a temporal effect brought into being under the control of a translated representational medium. It requires one arrangement of matter to evoke the effect, and another arrangement of matter to physically establish what the effect will be. There are very specific physical reasons for this to be the case – not the least of which is the presence of inexorable law. And like every other translated effect ever known to exist, it’s a relational architecture that must preserve the discontinuity between the arrangement of the medium and its effect within its system. It’s not sort-of like it, it’s not kinda like it; from a strict physics perspective, it’s exactly like every other translated effect ever observed. These are demonstrable facts that stem from observation, theory, and experimental confirmation by some of the brightest minds of the past 100 years – and these facts are not going away just because of someone’s ideological preference to imagine the system as a local entity that’s reducible to its physical properties. It isn’t. Get over it. Translation stems from contingent organization, not dynamics. And frankly, this is only the tip of the observations that clarify the genetic translation system. There’s plenty more. Perhaps instead of wasting your own time by regurgitating toothless counter-observations (like “it’s just chemistry folks”) maybe you should wonder why you were taught the genetic translation apparatus without being given a core understanding of what translation is to begin with. Word freaking salad. Anyone? but the worst part of his post: Quote ... sipping a Tecate .... Gross man. Just yeccch....

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 04 2015,23:53    Well somebody should put a dressing* on that salad! *In the medical sense of that word, not the food sense.

CeilingCat Posts: 2363 Joined: Dec. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 05 2015,03:51    I just took another look at www.timecube.com and I see this in the upper right corner: timecube.com expired on 08/24/2015 and is pending renewal or deletion. The url appears to belong to network solutions.  If it's not renewed by the owner,  bidding for the name is currently up to $201.   It's getting more expensive to be a kook.

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 05 2015,13:18    Quote Survival of the Fittest? September 4, 2015 Posted by PaV under Intelligent Design 8 Comments Here’s a news article about 400,000 antelopes dying off in a short period of time. Looks like it’s due to some sort of bacterial attack, though they’re not fully sure what caused this massive die-off. There’s lots of questions that come to mind. Here’s one or two: (1) How do we define the “fittest”? Are they the “strongest”, the “fastest”, the most “aggressive”? What are they? Maybe they’re the “weakest.” Maybe they were so weak that they couldn’t forage with the rest of the herds, and so stayed behind and didn’t get infected. So, how do we define “fitness” here? (2) In the annals of NS, no one has likely ever seen anything like this. The selection factor is 0.5 (half the population has died off). What other small, gradual change could be this destructive? And it seems it all has to do with bacteria. So, are the “fittest” the ones with the best “immune systems”? If that’s the case, with this kind of selection factor at work, you’d expect that the survivors, the ‘fittest’, would have incredibly good immune systems. Yet, something like this huge die-off happened not too long ago (1988). So, if something this lethal leads to hardly any change, then what great change is NS going to bring about when the selection pressure is far, far less. Again, the “survival of the fittest” doesn’t befall the “strongest,” “fastest”, “most aggressive”, most “anything,” but, apparently to almost any member of the population. If 400,000 out of 800,000 antelopes die, and they’re none for the better, then what does NS do anyway? Have we wildly exaggerated what it is able to do? (Read The Edge of Evolution to find out more) Quote 1 NickMatzke_UDSeptember 4, 2015 at 7:20 pm Wow, it’s like you’ve never heard of all of the research on natural selection and immune system genes. Google MHC diversity selection for starters. Immune system genes typically have some of the strongest statistical signatures of selection, in almost any animal anyone looks at. Also, you seen to have forgotten that the pathogens evolve too. Why should anyone take you seriously if you get step 1 (do your background research) wrong in commenting on science? ouchie

Acartia_Bogart Posts: 2927 Joined: Sep. 2014 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 05 2015,14:30    I made the mistake of visiting Michael Egnor's blog. What a hateful little bigot he is.

CeilingCat Posts: 2363 Joined: Dec. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 05 2015,15:28    Jesus Christ!   Quote Obama's sons have been busy Busy killing police officers, that is: Couple Arrested=> Charged With Torture, Murder of Abilene Police Officer – Wrote Anti-Cop Slurs in Blood Please pray for the officer and his family. Police officer Don Allen, 27, was murdered as a forseeable consequence of Democrats' deliberate policy to incite racial hate and violence against police.  Do not forget this: Omaba intended to incite people to kill cops So those cops shooting people in the back while they run away are working under Obama's orders? And there's more:   Quote I hasten to point out that the two groups who most strongly supported Civil Rights are blacks and Republicans, who are the same groups today who most strongly oppose gay marriage. He doesn't even live on this planet. http://egnorance.blogspot.com/....pot....pot.com

Woodbine Posts: 1218 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 05 2015,15:51    Quote (Acartia_Bogart @ Sep. 05 2015,20:30) I made the mistake of visiting Michael Egnor's blog. What a hateful little bigot he is. I took a peek at his place and was relieved to see he gets far less attention (as gauged by numbers of comments) than he used to. And it's not difficult to see why....he's gone full retard. It's as if Conservapedia took human form and started blogging.

Acartia_Bogart Posts: 2927 Joined: Sep. 2014 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 05 2015,17:00    Quote (Woodbine @ Sep. 05 2015,15:51) Quote (Acartia_Bogart @ Sep. 05 2015,20:30) I made the mistake of visiting Michael Egnor's blog. What a hateful little bigot he is. I took a peek at his place and was relieved to see he gets far less attention (as gauged by numbers of comments) than he used to. And it's not difficult to see why....he's gone full retard. It's as if Conservapedia took human form and started blogging. I know. Most of his recent comments have been from me. But there is no challenge. It is scary that people allow him to operate on their children's brain. He makes Arrington look like a reasonable person. And I am being serious.

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2015,12:50    next time they go off talking about Natural Law blah blah, this might be a good part of someone's response:

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