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Antievolution.org Discussion Board > From the Panda's Thumb > After the Bar Closes... > AFDave Wants You to Prove Evolution to Him

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Faid Posts: 1143 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 28 2006,01:10    Eric, care to follow me in my "chimps for public office" campaign? -------------- A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty: "The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information" "...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

afdave Posts: 1621 Joined: April 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 28 2006,01:18    Hey Seven Popes ... here's your documentation you asked for ... Quote Comment #98068 Posted by 'Rev Dr' Lenny Flank on April 23, 2006 12:06 PM (e) (This is on the 'Of Storks and Babies' Thread on the main PT blog) What if a few of the “already-converted” start to think a little more deeply about the human condition and, as a result, start to open their minds a bit? The costs outweigh the benefits. As I’ve noted, in 20-plus years of anti-creationist organizing, I can count on the fingers of one hand the sum total of all the creationists I’ve ever seen be “converted”. And indeed, for every one that gives up ID/creationism, there are three or four more ready to take his place. It just doesn’t matter how many ID/creationists we convert —- that simply will not weaken or cripple their movement. No political movement in history has ever been beaten by converting all its members to another view. We can only beat them as a political movement, by out-ORGANIZING them. Quote Dave, there is no top of the heap. Wow ... that's TWO people now who think there is no 'top of the heap.'  My mind just WHIRLS with fun possibilities for debating this topic ... maybe soon! Quote What exactly do you mean by balance? What I mean by 'balance' is simply that there IS an alternative for explaining origins (besides evolution) that is very plausible to at least half the public.  To me this requires that universities at least allow students to HEAR some of the more common alternatives, such as ID and Creationism.  I see this is happening at Cornell and this is a good start. -------------- A DILEMMA FOR THE COMMITTED NATURALIST A Hi-tech alien spaceship lands on earth ... DESIGNED. A Hi-tech alien rotary motor found in a cell ... NOT DESIGNED. http://afdave.wordpress.com/....ess.com

thurdl01 Posts: 99 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 28 2006,01:25    You realize you've completely misread that post, don't you?  The good Rev Dr wasn't saying that for every one person converted to the side of reason three more get converted towards Creationism.  He's saying for every one who embraces reason, three more who are already on the side of Creationism show up to take that person's place.

Faid Posts: 1143 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 28 2006,02:04    Quote (afdave @ April 28 2006,06:18) Quote Dave, there is no top of the heap. Wow ... that's TWO people now who think there is no 'top of the heap.'  My mind just WHIRLS with fun possibilities for debating this topic ... ...Four more years?     To be honest, I was a little surprised at first... I didn't know there were actually any people who thought the process of evolution was a struggle to be crowned "King of All Life". ...But then I remembered you're a YEC. Whenever you're ready, head-in-the-clouds-dave: Let the fun begin! -------------- A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty: "The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information" "...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

guthrie Posts: 696 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 28 2006,02:26    Quote (thurdl01 @ April 28 2006,06:25) You realize you've completely misread that post, don't you?  The good Rev Dr wasn't saying that for every one person converted to the side of reason three more get converted towards Creationism.  He's saying for every one who embraces reason, three more who are already on the side of Creationism show up to take that person's place. Seconded. Although I'm sure Lenny would have a laugh at being quoted as an infallible source.

afdave Posts: 1621 Joined: April 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 28 2006,05:12    Lenny's not infallible, just assumed to be a good "sample" of majority PT thought ... and I like his title ... Oh, and I forgot ... where should I send my interpretations of certain posts to have them receive the "official, approved PT interpretation"? :-) Faid said ... Quote To be honest, I was a little surprised at first... I didn't know there were actually any people who thought the process of evolution was a struggle to be crowned "King of All Life". I don't know of anyone like that either.  I don't think this.  I think humans were CREATED as the "rulers" over all other non-human life. -------------- A DILEMMA FOR THE COMMITTED NATURALIST A Hi-tech alien spaceship lands on earth ... DESIGNED. A Hi-tech alien rotary motor found in a cell ... NOT DESIGNED. http://afdave.wordpress.com/....ess.com

Flint Posts: 478 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 28 2006,05:14    Quote I think humans were CREATED as the "rulers" over all other non-human life. We seem to have nailed the heart of the problem here. Clearly, we have two totally different, mutually exclusive and incompatible conceptions of what the word "think" actually refers to. For some of us, it's a process. For others, it's the total absence of that very process.

ericmurphy Posts: 2460 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: April 28 2006,05:28    Quote (Faid @ April 28 2006,06:10) Eric, care to follow me in my "chimps for public office" campaign? I don't know; the last chimp we elected didn't work out so well… -------------- 2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity "Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

afdave Posts: 1621 Joined: April 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 28 2006,07:12    You're right ... Clinton was a disaster ... Hey Flint, if you want some good thinking, go look at  my new thread "AFDave's Creator God Hypothesis" where I posted my Testable Predictions for Point 1 -------------- A DILEMMA FOR THE COMMITTED NATURALIST A Hi-tech alien spaceship lands on earth ... DESIGNED. A Hi-tech alien rotary motor found in a cell ... NOT DESIGNED. http://afdave.wordpress.com/....ess.com

afdave Posts: 1621 Joined: April 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 28 2006,07:17    Wait ... let me be more specific, Flint, if you want to get that process you were talking about re-started in your own head, go over to my new thread ... -------------- A DILEMMA FOR THE COMMITTED NATURALIST A Hi-tech alien spaceship lands on earth ... DESIGNED. A Hi-tech alien rotary motor found in a cell ... NOT DESIGNED. http://afdave.wordpress.com/....ess.com

ericmurphy Posts: 2460 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: April 28 2006,07:28    Quote (afdave @ April 28 2006,12:12) You're right ... Clinton was a disaster ... I said the "last chimp," not the second-to-last chimp. Given the relative state of the union in both administrations, I'm flabberghasted that you'd confuse the two. -------------- 2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity "Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

thurdl01 Posts: 99 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 28 2006,08:17    Quote (afdave @ April 28 2006,11:12) Lenny's not infallible, just assumed to be a good "sample" of majority PT thought ... and I like his title ... Oh, and I forgot ... where should I send my interpretations of certain posts to have them receive the "official, approved PT interpretation"? :-) You make it sound like I'm trying to apply some kind of spin on the statement, but I'm not.  It's just simple reading comprehension.  The good Rev Dr did not say "And indeed, for every one that gives up ID/creationism, there are three or four more who give up on evolution." He said "And indeed, for every one that gives up ID/creationism, there are three or four more ready to take his place." And the two statements are not equal.  "Ready" implies a pre existance, not a conversion.  This isn't about official interpretations or trying to get PT's approval on things, but I have so little doubt that you've misread what the good Rev Dr said that I have no hesitation to call you on it, even without his official take on it. Just, ya know, get some reading comprehension skills, that's all you need in this instance.

Mr_Christopher Posts: 1238 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 28 2006,11:54    Quote (afdave @ April 26 2006,05:44)  Atheists also have "faith" that they will not burn in #### after they die. Your ignorance on most subjects is indeed profound, but that little tidbit simply made me laugh :-) Chris -------------- Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

Faid Posts: 1143 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 29 2006,15:44    Quote (afdave @ April 28 2006,10:12) Faid said ... Quote To be honest, I was a little surprised at first... I didn't know there were actually any people who thought the process of evolution was a struggle to be crowned "King of All Life". I don't know of anyone like that either.  I don't think this.  I think humans were CREATED as the "rulers" over all other non-human life. Precisely. And that's why you can't even begin to understand how evolution works, and think it's illogical: You won't stop thinking in terms of masters and servants. That was my point from the beginning. -------------- A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty: "The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information" "...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

afdave Posts: 1621 Joined: April 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 29 2006,16:23    Well, Corkscrew had some fairly convincing arguments on this thread ... and we had a good little dialog ... I'm glad to hear any you might want to put forward ... and I do actually agree with your point about debating ME, not some PhD that was converted to AIGism ... I would be interested in seeing how YOU would put forward a basic hypothesis for explaining the universe ... people here accuse me of all kinds of logic and parsimony errors and so on, so it would be interesting to see the shoe on the other foot and see how YOU do would do it ... Cheers! -------------- A DILEMMA FOR THE COMMITTED NATURALIST A Hi-tech alien spaceship lands on earth ... DESIGNED. A Hi-tech alien rotary motor found in a cell ... NOT DESIGNED. http://afdave.wordpress.com/....ess.com

Carol Clouser Posts: 29 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 29 2006,16:52    What you really need to do, Afdave, is read some insightful literature on the Bible, such as Judah Landa's IN THE BEGINNING OF, available on Amazon. You will find it to be an eye-openning enlightening experience.

afdave Posts: 1621 Joined: April 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 29 2006,17:02    Thanks.  I'll check it out. Here's a question for people with er ... more of an Evolutionary mindset ... How many cultures around the world practice a 7 day week and why?   I honestly have not studied this, but would like to know ... Of course I know why Western Society does, but I'm curious about other cultures ... -------------- A DILEMMA FOR THE COMMITTED NATURALIST A Hi-tech alien spaceship lands on earth ... DESIGNED. A Hi-tech alien rotary motor found in a cell ... NOT DESIGNED. http://afdave.wordpress.com/....ess.com

Aardvark Posts: 134 Joined: Feb. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 29 2006,18:52    [quote=afdave,April 29 2006,222][/quote] Quote How many cultures around the world practice a 7 day week and why? Most cultures have seperate cultural calenders.  The 7-day week is thought to have originated in ancient Rome and was then spread worldwide by the British Empire.  There are thoughts that it is linked to ancient Astrology. The 7-day week has been adopted worldwide primarily for business and snychronisation reasons.

Faid Posts: 1143 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 29 2006,23:39    Quote (afdave @ April 29 2006,22:02) Thanks.  I'll check it out. Here's a question for people with er ... more of an Evolutionary mindset ... How many cultures around the world practice a 7 day week and why?   I honestly have not studied this, but would like to know ... Of course I know why Western Society does, but I'm curious about other cultures ... Sheesh. Sure, dave. You have not studied this at all. You just thought you'd suddenly drop this genuine question that's been puzzling you all this time in the middle of an evolution debate, however irrelevant it may seem. Riiight. Anyway, I'll bite: Any standard google search should provide you with a multitude of sites concerning the days of the week, if you really wanted to know... Anyway, from the first page: Here's a small summary of the reasons a seven-day week originated in the  early middle-eastern civilizations and also why the weeks of other, culturally separate civilizations that measured time, like the Mayans, are completely different (although equally arbitrary). -------------- A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty: "The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information" "...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

afdave Posts: 1621 Joined: April 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 29 2006,23:51    Yes.  I do Google searches about 40 times a day ... but I wanted to know what sources YOU would refer me to ... I've never figured out how to make Google do that for me ... -------------- A DILEMMA FOR THE COMMITTED NATURALIST A Hi-tech alien spaceship lands on earth ... DESIGNED. A Hi-tech alien rotary motor found in a cell ... NOT DESIGNED. http://afdave.wordpress.com/....ess.com

Faid Posts: 1143 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 29 2006,23:57    So, you already knew the answers, you just wanted to know what answers we would point you to? And why is that, if I may ask? Anyway, I hope BBC was to your liking. -------------- A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty: "The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information" "...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

afdave Posts: 1621 Joined: April 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 30 2006,00:47    One of the reasons I am here at PT is to try and understand how people think who have a different view of life than me ... it is interesting even if I don't agree Yes, BBC gave me some new information I had not heard before ... as I said, I'm familiar with the Jewish, Roman, Western society reasons for the 7 day week, but not other cultures ... -------------- A DILEMMA FOR THE COMMITTED NATURALIST A Hi-tech alien spaceship lands on earth ... DESIGNED. A Hi-tech alien rotary motor found in a cell ... NOT DESIGNED. http://afdave.wordpress.com/....ess.com

Occam's Toothbrush Posts: 555 Joined: April 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 30 2006,01:16    what I don't get is why anyone is giving this afdave turd the time of day, let alone actually arguing with him.  he's clearly not here to learn anything, doesn't have anything to teach anyone else, and doesn't contribute anything but a bunch of irrelevant non-sequiturs, unfunny jokey asides, and empty promises that he might eventually participate in a real debate about any of the issues he pretends to think are in question. why bother?  at least with idiots like Ghost of Paley you get the illusion of an actual discussion about issues this board exists to explore; afdave isn 't even pretending to discuss anything, he just aspires to be a provocative #######. -------------- "Molecular stuff seems to me not to be biology as much as it is a more atomic element of life" --Creo nut Robert Byers ------ "You need your arrogant ass kicked, and I would LOVE to be the guy who does it. Where do you live?" --Anger Management Problem Concern Troll "Kris"

Faid Posts: 1143 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: April 30 2006,01:56    Quote (afdave @ April 30 2006,05:47) One of the reasons I am here at PT is to try and understand how people think who have a different view of life than me ... it is interesting even if I don't agree Yes, BBC gave me some new information I had not heard before ... as I said, I'm familiar with the Jewish, Roman, Western society reasons for the 7 day week, but not other cultures ... Sorry, I think I should explain why I was a bit snappy: In forums like this, we often have somebody appear, say that he's new in the evolution/creation debate, and has no real opinion... Then he posts some (usually quite peculiar) question, that he says he would really like to understand and that he hopes we can help him. Many of us patiently try to answer his question, and explain some basic consepts of evolution to him. Then he starts to argue, and we see that he is not a sincere person at all: He is another apologetic trying to pass as some neutral inquiring individual, and he tries to catch us with our guard down and twist and manipulate our arguments to what he likes. Now, of course I know you are not one of those: You were honest and declared your beliefs from the beginning, while they belong to the "Liars for Jesus" variety. I just think it's important to understand why some of us might have a knee-jerk reaction to someone posting a seemingly irrelevant question out of the blue, saying they are actually looking for an answer- even if his intentions are honest. -------------- A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty: "The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information" "...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

afdave Posts: 1621 Joined: April 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 01 2006,01:34    Yes.  I understand  there are a lot of "Liars and Scheisters for Jesus" in the world and I try very hard not to be one of them.  I am very sincere about what I believe and I think it is the most rational position, amazing as that may sound to modern scientific ears.   But I am also very sincere that IF a person from the "Evolution Camp" was to offer a very convincing argument for the fine-tuning of the cosmos, the amazing biological machines, etc., etc., I would adopt that belief and become an Atheist.  My problem is that so far, despite the mass of literature advocating the postion, none of it has been very convincing to me. -------------- A DILEMMA FOR THE COMMITTED NATURALIST A Hi-tech alien spaceship lands on earth ... DESIGNED. A Hi-tech alien rotary motor found in a cell ... NOT DESIGNED. http://afdave.wordpress.com/....ess.com

Chris Hyland Posts: 705 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 01 2006,02:35    Quote But I am also very sincere that IF a person from the "Evolution Camp" was to offer a very convincing argument for the fine-tuning of the cosmos Thats more a question for someone form the cosmology campl don't you think. Don't confuse evolution with atheism, it says nothing about the origin of the universe or whether or not some kind of God exists.

MidnightVoice Posts: 380 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 01 2006,03:13    Quote (afdave @ May 01 2006,06:34)  But I am also very sincere that IF a person from the "Evolution Camp" was to offer a very convincing argument for the fine-tuning of the cosmos, the amazing biological machines, etc., etc., I would adopt that belief and become an Atheist.   Why?  You seem under the terribly mistaken and totally confused and irrational belief that someone who believes in evolution cannot believe in God.  And quite honestly, I don't think God would be very ompressed with that attitude. -------------- If I fly the coop some time And take nothing but a grip With the few good books that really count It's a necessary trip I'll be gone with the girl in the gold silk jacket The girl with the pearl-driller's hands

Faid Posts: 1143 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 01 2006,03:41    Quote (afdave @ May 01 2006,06:34) But I am also very sincere that IF a person from the "Evolution Camp" was to offer a very convincing argument for the fine-tuning of the cosmos, the amazing biological machines, etc., etc., I would adopt that belief and become an Atheist.  My problem is that so far, despite the mass of literature advocating the postion, none of it has been very convincing to me. I believe you are being sincere to us, dave. I'm just not sure that you are being sincere to yourself when you say that. Try to conduct an "experiment" on yourself and the way you think: You previously thought (and correct me if I'm wrong, which is quite possible) that the fact all these cultures have a seven-day week is a good argument for it's divine origin. Now that you were pointed to all the historical evidence that show the concept of a seven day week is of human devise, has your belief in its divine roots been questioned in your mind, even in the slightest? Can you think of any argument, or proof, empirical data, or even supernatural revelation, that would do that to any aspect of your beliefs? -------------- A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty: "The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information" "...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

Renier Posts: 276 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 01 2006,11:47    Quote what I don't get is why anyone is giving this afdave turd the time of day, let alone actually arguing with him.  he's clearly not here to learn anything, doesn't have anything to teach anyone else, and doesn't contribute anything but a bunch of irrelevant non-sequiturs, unfunny jokey asides, and empty promises that he might eventually participate in a real debate about any of the issues he pretends to think are in question. why bother? Comedy value, and since the regular trolls have been a bit silent.

TCE Posts: 3 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 02 2006,06:53    0--> Quote (afdave @ April 19 2006,060) I didn't say "prove" ... obviously, this would require outside sources ... I said I would like to HEAR your theory in your own words and the 5 top reasons WHY you believe it To those who have been polite enough to accomodate my request, thanks!  Believe it or not, it is quite rare to find unless you specifically ask. BTW- does anyone know of a good online chart or tree showing current evolutionary understanding of how life developed which covers it all, from single-celled organism to humans, preferably from a well-recognized source? BTW - does anyone know of a good online chart or tree showing current biblical understanding of how life developed which covers it all, from Adam and Eve to this generation, complete with each family name, preferably from a well-recognized source?

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