RSS 2.0 Feed

» Welcome Guest Log In :: Register

Pages: (666) < ... 289 290 291 292 293 [294] 295 296 297 298 299 ... >   
  Topic: The Bathroom Wall, A PT tradition< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 21 2008,15:51   

This is being gone about the wrong way. As with FTK, Danny simply doesn't have the tools or knowledge to evaluate the evidence. Dealing with the evidence is just going to confuse him further. We need to start at the bottom and work our way up.

Well we do if we can be bothered. Personally, I can't see much point in playing chase the ever retreating goalposts with Danny.

Louis

ETA LOLCat:

I saw this and thought of Danny. Laugh? I had to put my insides back in.



--------------
Bye.

  
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 21 2008,17:04   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 20 2008,22:42)
Tard of all kinds fascinates and/or dumbfounds me. I'm back in BFE florida temporarily, and I have some relatives here, you know the kind, the kind who thinks that when you're looking for informed, educated scientific opinion, Ken Ham and Kent Hovind are probably slightly more reliable than, say, a consensus of the last 178 consecutive people who won the Nobel Prize. And they're suspicious of any fancy book larnin. And I'm talking to this one guy last thursday who stopped by to talk to me about his job search. He hasn't worked in a while. He has very few skills. Well he got lucky and found a job that pays $15/hr, and interviewed last week. Interviewer said basically he could have the job because his references spoke so highly of him. He thought it was a job on the edge of the town we both live near, which is 7 miles away. Turns out the job is mostly here, but occasionally at a satellite office 25 miles away. Now this guy isn't qualified to do much of anything. And this is BFE Florida. I mean, middle of nowhere. There are more trailers in this town than houses. Not making fun of trailers, I grew up in one, I'm saying this area is charitably described as 'low income'. You want an el Camino? I can get you five. Right now. I could probably get them to throw in the Astroturf for the bed for free. Anyway. So the guy scores a job for double minimum wage but half the time he'd have to drive 25 miles to go to work instead of 7, twice a week. And he flat out turns it down. Tells the interviewer no way, no how. The interviewer tells him the days he goes to the other town he'll get an extra $10. No, he says, no way, no how. And he tells me this, and I almost spit out my cigarette. And over the next 15 minutes I tried, with at least 3 different arguments, to convince him to take the job rather than work at, say, Subway for $7/hr. And I can't make this guy understand, for the life of me. There's nothing I can do. It's hopeless. He refuses to even think about the question. He's got this model in his head, "7 miles = nothing. 25 miles = possible catastrophe of biblical proportions" and there's nothing i can do to change it. I tried everything.

me: "You don't mind driving 7 miles to town x right"
him: "sure. town x is nothing."
me: "town y is just like 3 trips to town x"
him: "no its not. You don't know what could happen."
me: "for $15/hr and an extra $10 on top, you'll make way more than in town x."
him. "No you won't. Because you don't know what will happen. The car could throw a rod. That would cost like $1000 dollars."
me: "You could throw a rod going to town x"
him: "I've driven to town x a thousand times never threw a rod."
me: "You could drive to town y and never throw a rod."
him: "You can't promise that. Ain't nobody can promise that."
me: "There are ways to estimate the cost. The state pays like 50 cents a mile. That's whether you go to town x or town y. It's an average cost of expenses."
him: "Average don't mean anything. You could get a flat and no 'average' tells you you're going to get a flat. And you'd be S.O.L."
me: "no, of course, no average tells you anything particular, but it tells you about how much it'll cost. If they never meant anything insurance companies could never operate."
him: "I ain't no insurance company and you ain't neither."
me: "that's not the point. The point is you can estimate the cost and by any reasonable estimate you're better off at $15/hr in town y."
him: "Can your 'estimate' tell me if me car is going to break down tomorrow?"
me: "of course not." (rubs forehead)
him: "that proves my point. You don't know and I don't either."
me: "oh goddammit."
him: "you can't tell me driving to town y for $10 I'd make money."
me: "I never said you'd make money if your job was just driving to town y and back for $10."
him: "yes you did."
me: "where's my vodka?"
him: "can't make no money if you don't know how much it'll cost you."
me: "but you do have an idea how much it'll cost you."
him: "Nope. No idea."
me: "yes, idea. Because if I offered you a million dollars to drive to town y you'd take it. Because you know, on some level, that it wouldn't cost you a million dollars to drive to town y, because it's twenty five F&$#ing miles away. Because you know some vague, approximate, rough idea what it would cost, and you just refuse to deal with that any more specifically. You'd rather put it out of your head and not consider it."
him: "oh yeah, well, that's stupid because nobody would pay you a million dollars to drive to town y."
me: "ugggggghhhhhhhh...."


And of course it doesn't end there. Because I'm obsessed with tard. He leaves and I have like 4 shots and I can't stop thinking about it. I'm not even measuring at this point, it's just 4 fingers of vodka and the rest is Mountain Dew. What would have worked? How can I make him understand? And my girlfriend shows up like 3 hrs later and gets pissed off that I can't stop thinking about it. She's a wonderful girl and we met in Gifted maybe 16 years ago and obviously she gets it, but she's not obsessed with tard. So she can totally forget about tardacular things and I've only gotten maybe 50% better since then. About an hour later the guy's wife shows up and starts complaining to me that I called her husband an idiot. Which I never did. He just got the impression that I thought he was an idiot because I was so desperate to figure out a basic argument which would work. Which, let's face it, is true, but I never said as much. And I try to explain to her how the numbers work out but now she's refusing to get it because even though she's smarter and can easily get it, that would require contradicting him, and he's the man of the household, so now she's pretending to be as dumb as he is for social reasons. And now I drink several more shots of vodka and smoking Camels like they're about to be banned, and she leaves, and now my girlfriend's pissed because Camels are stinky and the conversation reduces to

me: "I don't get it." (puff puff puff)
her: "I know."
me: "I don't f*$%ing get it." (puff puff puff)
her: "I know."
me: "I mean....how...I mean...how....Look...I mean." (puff puff puff)
her: "I. Know."
me: (puff puff puff)

Coda: that was thursday or friday and she was annoyed at me but then we went on to have a great Saturday in Gainesville watching a Black Box production of Cloud 9, which was mediocre, because it was supposed to be 'subversive' about gender roles, and it was, but 'subversive' in a way about as subtle and clever as being hit in the head with a 2x4, and we walked around the lake Sunday, which was nice, and had hungover breakfasts at Bob Evans, except for the gooey part of the whites which is a constant problem if you go out and get sunny-side-up eggs, and lots of extracurricular activities, and it was in the end a great weekend, but still a lesson to be learned. If you have a tard problem, get help. It's a terrible addiction, and it will cause problems in relationships. Don't think you can figure out the tard. You can't. Tard is eternal. There is nothing you can do about it. All you can do, is make your peace with it. Don't make the mistakes I made. Find a way to accept it and take pity on us poor junkies, freebasing tard at UD and promising to quit tomorrow.

Which I will.

Just one more hit....

I too am fascinated with tard; even the borderline type.

It's a large part of why am divorced and live alone.

When someone commits tard, I am curious and ask about the thought process that led to that particular incident of tard.

Looking back, I guess I'm lucky I was only yelled at.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
huwp



Posts: 172
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 21 2008,17:32   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Oct. 21 2008,15:16)
... The same cannot be said for languages. Try it - take a paragraph, put it into google translate, then again and again and rotate it through several different languages. It won't be the same when translated back into the original language.

This is so true (along with much else here).

For example, in English we have two similar but very distinct words: "glance" and "glimpse".  Their separate meaning is very clear.  In Italian both may be translated by the word "occhiata" meaning a short sight of something.

"Translating" Daniel's number is, I suspect, more a question of decoding rather than translating.  With translation you have to consider questions of usage, idiom, register and other matters.

Wikipedia has a fun article on English as She is Spoke.

That reminds me, I really ought to craunch a marmoset...

Hwyl fawr

Huw

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 21 2008,18:17   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Oct. 21 2008,13:52)
         
Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Oct. 20 2008,20:48)
Look. I believe life originated in a pair of vacuum tubes hanging in a primordial guitar amp. 6L6GCs, specifically. I have no idea how or why it happened but it did. My argument could aid in empirical research if it turns out to be correct. They could stop wasting money and resources on dead-end rabbit trails and focus those resources where they would actually produce results.

That's ridiculous.  Everyone knows that life comes from 12AX7's!

That could be. But I think you're too focused on the prebiofier and neglecting the power biofier.

But we've got the beginnings of theory here. Prelife began as a few millivolts on the grid of one side of a 12AX7. That boosted the creator's thoughts to line levels for consumption by the first AF stage (the second triode in the same bottle). Maybe 100v on the plate at that point. Then through the tone controls (the moral structure of the universe was adjusted there) and into a 12AT7: one side served as second stage biofication and the other as phase inverter (there's your chirality, an illusion created by rectification in a push-pull universe). Then into the triodes of a 12AU7; each side drove the grid of a 6L6GC, which in turn had maybe 375 volts on the plate. I like my biofier with ultralinear taps on the OT, but that's just me. Judicious negative feedback increased the adaptiveness of the circuit.

There you have it. A biofier with lotsa gain and good crunch accounts for the origin of life. [Cups hands to shout]: OK, SCIENTISTS, YOU CAN STOP RESEARCHING ORIGINS NOW. I've got it worked out.   

(PS: The above specifies more mechanism than the entire edifice of intelligent design creationism.)

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
didymos



Posts: 1828
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 21 2008,18:52   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Oct. 21 2008,10:58)

BTW, I'll translate your example into English when you translate this into English:
0100010010101001001110010100101001000100100001000111110010010101001010


Well, you can drop the leading zero: literally adds nothing.  Converting straight to decimal yields 316643114034118206794, but using (as seems appropriate) scientific notation, it's 3.16643114034118206794 * 10^20.

In English, as requested:

Three point one six six four three one one four zero three four one one eight two zero six seven nine four times ten raised to the twentieth power.


But if you prefer things, as you seem to, non-scientific:

Short scale ("American"):

Three-hundred sixteen quintillion, six-hundred forty-three quadrillion, one-hundred fourteen trillion, thirty-four billion, one-hundred eighteen million, two-hundred and six thousand, seven hundred and ninety-four

Long scale ("British"):

Three-hundred sixteen trillion, six-hundred forty-three thousand-billion (billiard), one-hundred fourteen billion, thirty-four thousand-million (milliard), one-hundred eighteen million, two-hundred and six thousand, seven hundred and ninety-four

--------------
I wouldn't be bothered reading about the selfish gene because it has never been identified. -- Denyse O'Leary, professional moron
Again "how much". I don't think that's a good way to be quantitative.-- gpuccio

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 21 2008,21:36   

Quote
To a certain jaded sensibility, what makes Scandinavia particularly magical is what it lacks. "There is no national anti-gay rights movement," writes Zuckerman, "there are no 'Jesus fish' imprinted on advertisements in the yellow pages, there are no school boards or school administrators who publicly doubt the evidence for human evolution ... there are no religiously inspired 'abstinence only' sex education curricula ... there are no parental groups lobbying schools and city councils to remove Harry Potter books from school and public libraries ... there are no restaurants that include Bible verses on their menus and placemats, there are no 'Faith Nights' at national sporting events ..."

Share this story on Digg:
Digg!

Thanks for your support.

Not to put too fine a point on it, there's no God. At least none that would pass muster with evangelical Americans. As few as 24 percent of Danes and as few as 16 percent of Swedes believe in a personal deity. (In America, that figure is close to 90 percent.) In Scandinavia, belief in life after death hovers in the low 30 percent range, as opposed to 81 percent in America. Some 82 percent of Danes and Swedes believe in evolution, while roughly 10 percent believe in hell. Their rate of weekly church attendance is among the lowest on Earth.


http://www.salon.com/books/review/2008/10/22/zuckerman/

   
Quack



Posts: 1961
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,06:00   

I really wonder how long the secular paradise we have here in Scandinavia will survive. With constant, and probably even increasing immigration from remote cultures and religions, I believe we eventually may reach a condition where a dramatic shift may take place.

But it is not considered good form to discuss such matters, it is all being labeled racism byt the fundies, do-gooders, and enthusiasts for a "colorful" and  "multicultural"  community.

It is a fact that immigration so far has not been handled well. I don't know much about the subject, but I suspect that Switzerland is one of the countries that have been able to stay clear of the problem. And Finland, for some reason it looks like they haven't got their share of immigrants and asylum seekers.

I remember the good old days when we had only one asylum seeker; Leon Trotsky. He wasn't even allowed to stay - but in the end it would not have mattered, the GRU (Wasn't that before KGB?) wold have got him anyway.

--------------
Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
dnmlthr



Posts: 565
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,08:19   

Quote (Quack @ Oct. 22 2008,12:00)
I really wonder how long the secular paradise we have here in Scandinavia will survive. With constant, and probably even increasing immigration from remote cultures and religions, I believe we eventually may reach a condition where a dramatic shift may take place.

In 1900, Sweden had a population of 5136441 people.
Between 1900 and 2007, 3010947 immigrants came here, 2064730 emigrated and 11977865 were born while the overall population grew to 9182927. I do not consider that a dramatic shift in demographics.

The largest immigrant group is people from finland by the way, traditionally not a very religious country.

I also don't agree with your assertion that scandinavia (though I'm only aware of how things are in sweden) is or has ever been some sort of paradise, secular or otherwise. One of the incumbent parties right now are the "christian democrats" and they are effectively blocking gender-neutral marriage laws, just to make an example.

Source: Statistiska centralbyrån

Edit: Speling, grammar, formatting.

--------------
Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

  
Daniel Smith



Posts: 970
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,13:37   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Oct. 21 2008,13:16)
       
Quote (Daniel Smith @ Oct. 21 2008,12:58)
BTW, I'll translate your example into English when you translate this into English:
0100010010101001001110010100101001000100100001000111110010010101001010

That's a number Daniel, not a fragment of a "language".

You said DNA is a language. Languages have properties. One of them is that they can be translated into different languages.

http://www.amazon.com/Ton-Beau-Marot-Praise-Language/dp/0465086454

I recommend that as a starting point.

In base 2 that number is 316643114034118197248. In hex it is 112a4e5291211f0000.

Numbers are numbers. You can change the representation however you like but you are not "translating" it. You can move back and forth from whatever representation you like and if you are careful you will not lose any information. The same cannot be said for languages. Try it - take a paragraph, put it into google translate, then again and again and rotate it through several different languages. It won't be the same when translated back into the original language.

It's very telling you can't make the simple distinction between a number and a language.

How do you know it's a number and not machine code?
     
Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Oct. 20 2008,13:32)
Can this language be translated into French? German? If not, it's not really a language is it? Even machine code can be so translated.


Grow up oldman.  Like I said, you need to focus.  I came to this thread with a specific prediction.  You want to continually change the subject and make it about a whole host of other things.  It's not.

I have yet to see anything in any of your responses that evidences even a rudimentary knowledge of the science you supposedly believe in.  You know what I think?  I think you're just an atheist who comes to forums like these to hear people talk about science so you can feel better about yourself.  The problem is, you have no real personal understanding of any of it.  You've never investigated any of it for yourself and it shows in your answers.

My question, about the origin of protein synthesis, was directly related to my original argument (and your answer illustrates my point).  Your questions, (top ten evidences of God, etc) are merely a deflection of my argument via endless rabbit trails.  I've been guilty of following you down too many of these rabbit trails.  I'll not do it anymore (I hope).

You brought up my proclamation (from when I left this forum before) that I was going to do everything I could to destroy my own beliefs.  Well, just to let you know, I'm doing that now.  I tried to do it on my own but quickly found that it's very hard to see your own fallacies and biases.  So I decided that the best way would be to expose my beliefs to those most likely to oppose them.  That's why I'm here.

In what way are you attempting to destroy your own beliefs?

--------------
"If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance."  Orville Wright

"The presence or absence of a creative super-intelligence is unequivocally a scientific question."  Richard Dawkins

  
Daniel Smith



Posts: 970
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,13:52   

Quote (didymos @ Oct. 21 2008,12:02)
   
Quote (Daniel Smith @ Oct. 21 2008,11:23)

I'm still trying to find something on the net that describes the evolution of the Krebs cycle, but have had no luck so far.  I might have to go to the library and try to find the paper you cited.


Oh, come on Danny. That's pathetic.  I know you're all ignoring me and stuff, but try this link to Google Scholar, the results of a search on "Krebs cycle evolution".

Thank you for that actually.  I went to Google Scholar yesterday and did several searches including "evolution of the Krebs cycle" (with and without quotes), but none returned results as helpful as yours did.  Most of the papers I saw were either only abstracts, or they were not really focused on evolution.  Your search seems to have turned up more pdfs and full papers.  I guess the order of the words makes a difference (either that or I misspelled something).

After searching yesterday I printed out and read "Evolution of Metabolisms: A new Method for the Comparison of Metabolic Pathways" by Forst and Schulten, but it was about a new method of sequence comparison rather than the actual evolution of metabolic pathways.

I'll look through some of the papers you turned up and will get back to you.  (I'm sure you can't wait!)

BTW, why do you think I'm ignoring you?

--------------
"If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance."  Orville Wright

"The presence or absence of a creative super-intelligence is unequivocally a scientific question."  Richard Dawkins

  
Wolfhound



Posts: 468
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,13:58   

[Graffiti moved to Bathroom Wall. - stevestory]

Horrible, tasteless, insensitive joke warning

Q: What's the difference between Sarah Palin's mouth and her vagina?

A: Only one in five things that comes out of her vagina is retarded.

--------------
I've found my personality to be an effective form of birth control.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,14:08   

[Graffiti moved to Bathroom Wall. - stevestory]

Quote (Wolfhound @ Oct. 22 2008,19:58)
Horrible, tasteless, insensitive joke warning

Q: What's the difference between Sarah Palin's mouth and her vagina?

A: Only one in five things that comes out of her vagina is retarded.

That is low. Even I'm booing that one.

Louis

P.S. Note I make no comment about how funny it might be.

--------------
Bye.

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,14:25   

Quote
How do you know it's a number and not machine code?

Context. It is a number. It could also be machine code, depending on the machine. Difference machines would interpret it differently.

Context. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number

 
Quote
Grow up oldman.  Like I said, you need to focus.  I came to this thread with a specific prediction.  You want to continually change the subject and make it about a whole host of other things.  It's not.


The prediction that science will never discover the origin of life or the origin of other "systems"? You seem mighty unsure of yourself, considering how you keep asking for more information on, for example, the Krebs cycle.
 
Quote
I have yet to see anything in any of your responses that evidences even a rudimentary knowledge of the science you supposedly believe in.

I don't "believe" in science. It does not require my belief. Or faith.
 
Quote
You know what I think?  I think you're just an atheist who comes to forums like these to hear people talk about science so you can feel better about yourself.

They talk about science here? Really? On the occasional thread, sure. Mostly it's taking the piss out of people like you.
 
Quote
The problem is, you have no real personal understanding of any of it.  You've never investigated any of it for yourself and it shows in your answers.

And you do? I'll let the audience be the judge of that.
 
Quote
My question, about the origin of protein synthesis, was directly related to my original argument (and your answer illustrates my point).

Why are you asking such questions when you already know the answer? Goddidit, remember. You don't need to know any more then that.
 
Quote
Your questions, (top ten evidences of God, etc) are merely a deflection of my argument via endless rabbit trails.  

There is no argument. My questions are inane, remember. Nobody is forcing you to reply. However, have you not noticed how few people now bother to reply to you? Take what you can get is my advice.
 
Quote
I've been guilty of following you down too many of these rabbit trails.  I'll not do it anymore (I hope).

We'll see.
 
Quote
You brought up my proclamation (from when I left this forum before) that I was going to do everything I could to destroy my own beliefs.  Well, just to let you know, I'm doing that now.  I tried to do it on my own but quickly found that it's very hard to see your own fallacies and biases.  So I decided that the best way would be to expose my beliefs to those most likely to oppose them.  That's why I'm here.

And you are doing that by stating that no matter what, science will never find the OOL. That's an interesting starting point.
 
Quote
In what way are you attempting to destroy your own beliefs?

I don't "believe" in science in the way that you seem to think I do. I realise that speculation about the ultimate nature of reality is likely to remain just that, speculation. However, as evidence is made available I will certainly assess it, and if it's beyond my understanding then I will make judgements as who to trust regarding it. Some people have proven that trust in them is worthwhile. People can get it wrong. I realise that. What I won't do is put my trust in people who claim that god is whispering in their ear and revealing the ultimate truth to them and them alone.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Daniel Smith



Posts: 970
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,14:39   

I just read this paper;  A mitochondrial-like aconitase in the bacterium Bacteroides fragilis: Implications for the evolution of the mitochondrial Krebs cycle Anthony D. Baughn and Michael H. Malamy.
It was interesting, but their conclusion was rather ambiguous as to the origins of the eukaryotic Krebs cycle.  Much of their thinking seems to concern horizontal gene transfer, but they oscillate between bacterium --> eukaryote HGT and eukaryote --> bacterium, so it's very hard to get a handle on exactly how they think the Krebs cycle originated.

Basically they are doing what every paper I've ever read on evolution does: highlight similarities between organisms and then make a very general guess as to how these organisms could have evolved.  No details are given as to an actual evolutionary pathway, rather they just show sequences and/or existing biochemical pathways side by side.

Incidentally, much of this sequence similarity can also be explained by the Universal Genome hypothesis and Dr. John Davison's Semi-meiotic hypothesis.  If such hypotheses are correct, the differences between genomes could be the result of a loss of information and/or a "shuffling of the deck" so-to-speak.

I'll continue reading more of these Krebs cycle papers later.

--------------
"If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance."  Orville Wright

"The presence or absence of a creative super-intelligence is unequivocally a scientific question."  Richard Dawkins

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,15:15   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Oct. 22 2008,14:39)
I just read this paper;  A mitochondrial-like aconitase in the bacterium Bacteroides fragilis: Implications for the evolution of the mitochondrial Krebs cycle Anthony D. Baughn and Michael H. Malamy.
It was interesting, but their conclusion was rather ambiguous as to the origins of the eukaryotic Krebs cycle.  Much of their thinking seems to concern horizontal gene transfer, but they oscillate between bacterium --> eukaryote HGT and eukaryote --> bacterium, so it's very hard to get a handle on exactly how they think the Krebs cycle originated.

Basically they are doing what every paper I've ever read on evolution does: highlight similarities between organisms and then make a very general guess as to how these organisms could have evolved.  No details are given as to an actual evolutionary pathway, rather they just show sequences and/or existing biochemical pathways side by side.

Incidentally, much of this sequence similarity can also be explained by the Universal Genome hypothesis and Dr. John Davison's Semi-meiotic hypothesis.  If such hypotheses are correct, the differences between genomes could be the result of a loss of information and/or a "shuffling of the deck" so-to-speak.

I'll continue reading more of these Krebs cycle papers later.

 
Quote
It was interesting, but their conclusion was rather ambiguous as to the origins of the eukaryotic Krebs cycle.

How do you think it came about and what level of detail (comparable to the papers?) can you provide to support your version?
 
Quote
Incidentally, much of this sequence similarity can also be explained by the Universal Genome hypothesis and Dr. John Davison's Semi-meiotic hypothesis.

Does Dr. John Davison mention the origin of the Krebs cycle specifically?

I suppose that the sequence similarity you mentioned could be explained in all sorts of different ways. What explanations have you read about so far and how supported by experimental evidence are they?

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,18:28   

Quote (Quack @ Oct. 22 2008,04:00)
And Finland, for some reason it looks like they haven't got their share of immigrants and asylum seekers.

I would assume they're all frightened off by the language.

PS: But they're missing this!

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
didymos



Posts: 1828
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,19:22   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Oct. 22 2008,11:52)
BTW, why do you think I'm ignoring you?


 
Quote (Daniel Smith @ Oct. 18 2008,17:09)
There's really no point talking to a person like you.


ETA: link

--------------
I wouldn't be bothered reading about the selfish gene because it has never been identified. -- Denyse O'Leary, professional moron
Again "how much". I don't think that's a good way to be quantitative.-- gpuccio

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2008,19:37   

Sounds to me like Daniel is complaining that scientists working today simply use the already accepted principles of evolution, without bothering to try to reestablish them all over again from scratch with every new paper?

Henry

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2333
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2008,01:01   

[Graffiti moved to Bathroom Wall. - stevestory]

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Oct. 22 2008,14:46)
also,

Sarah Palin is hot.

Does she give head?

Or do you mean she has hot flashes?

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2008,02:49   

Quote (Henry J @ Oct. 23 2008,01:37)
Sounds to me like Daniel is complaining that scientists working today simply use the already accepted principles of evolution, without bothering to try to reestablish them all over again from scratch with every new paper?

Henry

Yup.

Why is it creationists always fail to understand consilience and the distribution of cognitive effort?

Well, I suppose there's lots of things they don't understand but those are a good start.

Louis

P.S. Can I appeal all his non to the powers that be that Danny is removed from the Wall and restricted to his own thread (if this is possible/easy), please? After all his nonsense is disturbing my enjoyment of dick jokes. ;-)

--------------
Bye.

  
Quack



Posts: 1961
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2008,03:05   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 22 2008,18:28)
 
Quote (Quack @ Oct. 22 2008,04:00)
And Finland, for some reason it looks like they haven't got their share of immigrants and asylum seekers.

I would assume they're all frightened off by the language.

PS: But they're missing this!

Ah, the Finns! They are a strange lot, with an unintelligible language with a lot of loong words, and a peculiar tango culture; people come together to do the tango - but that is all there is to it - as far as I have understood, there is nothing social about it, just the tango, and that's it.

But I am impressed by them, they really know how to manage a country! Obama, look to Finland!

--------------
Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
Quack



Posts: 1961
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2008,03:10   

Quote
No details are given as to an actual evolutionary pathway,


Missing those pathetic details that even Dembski doesn't care about?

--------------
Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2008,06:46   

Quote (Louis @ Oct. 23 2008,03:49)
Why is it creationists always fail to understand consilience and the distribution of cognitive effort?

Exactly.

I am not a biologist and wouldn't dream of critiquing such a highly technical paper.

What I do recognize is one move in an extraordinarily complex, empirically driven discussion of multiyear duration conducted within a community of scientists. That conversation furnished both the conceptual and technical framework within which further quite specific empirical questions were raised and addressed. That careful empirical research - very hard work requiring expert knowledge and considerable technical skill - resolved a phylogenic relationship within the context of other, already securely understood phylogenetic relationships. One almost hears a "click" as one more part of a massive historical and evolutionary puzzle is put (tentatively) into place, bringing into better resolution extremely complex historical events that occurred billions of years in the past.  

I find Daniel's summary bizarre. It truly arouses disgust.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2008,07:01   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Oct. 23 2008,06:46)
 
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 23 2008,03:49)
Why is it creationists always fail to understand consilience and the distribution of cognitive effort?

Exactly.

I am not a biologist and wouldn't dream of critiquing such a highly technical paper.

What I do recognize is one move in an extraordinarily complex, empirically driven discussion of multiyear duration conducted within a community of scientists. That conversation furnished the both the conceptual and technical framework within which further quite specific empirical questions were raised and addressed. That careful empirical research - very hard work requiring expert knowledge a considerable technical skill - resolved a phylogenic relationship within the context of other, already securely understood phylogenetic relationships. One almost hears a "click" as one more part of a massive historical and evolutionary puzzle is put (tentatively) into place, bringing into better resolution extremely complex historical events that occurred billions of years in the past.  

I find Daniel's summary bizarre. It truly arouses disgust.

I agree completely. Even thought I am a biologist, I would have to work long and hard to feel that I had a grasp of the experiments and evidence in this paper. So it is simply offensive when Daniel, whose knowledge of biology has been revealed in the past to be on a level with FtK's, gives it the wham-bam treatment that he summarizes here.

Even more disturbing, however, is the fact that Daniel thinks that he is triumphing in his arguments here. Not enough detail to satisfy his ignorant self?  That surely must mean that goddidit; no further questions are necessary.

Please feel free to shoot me if I ever reach the stage where that much of my brain has shut down permanently.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2008,08:16   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Oct. 23 2008,05:01)
Please feel free to shoot me if I ever reach the stage where that much of my brain has shut down permanently.

Aw, come on. If we behaved like that, Louis would have been dead years ago.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2008,11:52   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 23 2008,14:16)
Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Oct. 23 2008,05:01)
Please feel free to shoot me if I ever reach the stage where that much of my brain has shut down permanently.

Aw, come on. If we behaved like that, Louis would have been dead years ago.

Ah Teh Meanness. This I recognise. It is, in your case Arden, a symptom of the bitter envy you bear me. It's ok, I take your sniping good naturedly. Shall I throw you a biscuit for yapping on command like a good little pet?

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2008,11:58   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Oct. 23 2008,13:01)
Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Oct. 23 2008,06:46)
 
Quote (Louis @ Oct. 23 2008,03:49)
Why is it creationists always fail to understand consilience and the distribution of cognitive effort?

Exactly.

I am not a biologist and wouldn't dream of critiquing such a highly technical paper.

What I do recognize is one move in an extraordinarily complex, empirically driven discussion of multiyear duration conducted within a community of scientists. That conversation furnished the both the conceptual and technical framework within which further quite specific empirical questions were raised and addressed. That careful empirical research - very hard work requiring expert knowledge a considerable technical skill - resolved a phylogenic relationship within the context of other, already securely understood phylogenetic relationships. One almost hears a "click" as one more part of a massive historical and evolutionary puzzle is put (tentatively) into place, bringing into better resolution extremely complex historical events that occurred billions of years in the past.  

I find Daniel's summary bizarre. It truly arouses disgust.

I agree completely. Even thought I am a biologist, I would have to work long and hard to feel that I had a grasp of the experiments and evidence in this paper. So it is simply offensive when Daniel, whose knowledge of biology has been revealed in the past to be on a level with FtK's, gives it the wham-bam treatment that he summarizes here.

Even more disturbing, however, is the fact that Daniel thinks that he is triumphing in his arguments here. Not enough detail to satisfy his ignorant self?  That surely must mean that goddidit; no further questions are necessary.

Please feel free to shoot me if I ever reach the stage where that much of my brain has shut down permanently.

Alb and Bill,

This is why, when dealing with the FTKs/Dannys of this world, I have changed my policy. Engaging them at a detail level they are unequipped to deal with serves no one. We really need to aim for the "See Spot Run" level of science and philosophy. I don't necessarily mean that in a bad or patronising way, I really do think that wading into the details of abiogenesis or anything with them is utterly pointless. Give it a couple of goes, but after that, default to simple.

Of course this requires a supreme quantity of effort, and therefore, unless entered into with good faith on both parts (and I think we can guarantee in the case of the aforementioned individuals good faith is precisely what is lacking) it is utterly futile.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2008,12:43   

And for something completly different, next time you see someone making the watchmaker's argument, just show them this:

From here. I love webcomics.

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2008,13:15   

But just remember, a bird in the hand...

can get your hand awful dirty. :p

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 23 2008,13:17   

that was a dumb joke. gf told me a similar dumb joke yesterday.

What's blue and tastes like red paint?




answer written in reverse so it isn't immediately spoiled: !tniap eulb

   
  19967 replies since Jan. 17 2006,08:38 < Next Oldest | Next Newest >  

Pages: (666) < ... 289 290 291 292 293 [294] 295 296 297 298 299 ... >   


Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic

[ Read the Board Rules ] | [Useful Links] | [Evolving Designs]