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midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 12 2015,13:21   

Quote (JohnW @ Mar. 12 2015,13:12)
Quote (KevinB @ Mar. 12 2015,10:31)
For myself, I'm inclined to discard "fine-tuning" in favour of "auto-tuning"

You're saying god can't sing?

Quote
A musician arrived at the pearly gates.

"What did you do when you were alive?" asked St. Peter.

"I was the principal trombone player of the London Symphony Orchestra".

"Excellent! We have a vacancy in our celestial symphony orchestra for a trombonist. Why don't you turn up at the next rehearsal."

So, when the time for the next rehearsal arrived our friend turned up with his heavenly trombone. As he took his seat God moved, in a mysterious way, to the podium and tapped his baton to bring the players to attention. Our friend turned to the angelic second trombonist (!) and whispered, "So, what's God like as a conductor?"

"Oh, he's O.K. most of the time, but occasionally he thinks he's Karajan."


--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
dazz



Posts: 247
Joined: Mar. 2015

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 12 2015,13:23   

Quote (Glen Davidson @ Mar. 12 2015,12:59)
Quote (dazz @ Mar. 12 2015,08:03)
Hi guys, new to the forums.

I've been enjoying panda's thumb a lot and just registered here to say hi and join some of the discussions, or simply read and learn from the knowledgeable guys and gals around here.

I'm not a scientist, just a software engineer so I don't claim to have any sort of expertise in evolutionary biology or cosmology, but I had a decent education and I'm tired of the IDist nonsense too.

Also, I've been having a few arguments about fine tuning and I wanted to ask what do you think about the following contention about fine tuning. I can't start a new thread being my first post, so I'll just post it here if that's ok, then if the admins deem it thread worthy we can discuss it in it's own thread later.

It's not really an original idea, just a rehash of the Euthyphro dilemma against objective morals adapted to the fine tuning crap:

So if the laws of physics are so precisely "dialed in" that the slightest change in the fundamental constants or the laws themselves would have made the universe life prohibiting, doesn't that imply that those laws of physics, the natural laws are a NECESSITY for God? Those laws are imposed to him for what life is concerned, he couldn't have made it any other way so a life permitting universe is necessarily defined by the natural laws themselves, not what god wants or decides. The laws PRECEDE God and make him contingent to the universe.
Those laws are also sufficient to explain the process by which the universe becomes a life permitting environment by forming matter, stars, planets, etc...
So natural laws are both necessary and sufficient to explain the life permitting universe, moreover, in a universe so necessarily fine tuned for life, GOD CAN'T INTERVENE SUPERNATURALLY and temporarily suspend natural laws to perform miracles for example:
If he suspends those fine tuned laws the universe should collapse, or disintegrate or whatever. If one accepts that he could suspend them and keep it going, then one should also accept he can suspend natural laws in any other potential universe that is in principle not life permitting, and allow matter and life in those other universes with different constants and/or laws too... but then fine tuning would be just an illusion and the entire argument of FT in favor of design falls apart.
So the only alternative for miracles would be that they follow natural laws, in which case one would have to ask himself if they are really miracles when no supernatural stuff is going on: one smart physicist could run a few experiments and figure out what's going on and replicate miracles in a lab!

So in conclusion, if fine tuning is true, the biblical accounts of miracles must be either cheap magic tricks or outright lies.
God is constrained to natural laws at least in the sense of them being imposed to him, as if he had to follow a user guide to create life, a guide that needed to be there beforehand regardless of the existence of that supernatural god. Actually, for all we know, the creator could have stopped existing right after the creator and we would never find about it because he can't manifest himself from his supernatural nothingness.

What do you guys think?

Seriously, though, how would anything be a necessity for God?

First off, God doesn't need to make life.  I mean, why would he?  Kind of a basic question, but it still matters.

Secondly, if for some uncertain reason God did make life, why must he be constrained by physical limits?  Just make life magic (like our "souls" are supposed to be), screw the limits.

I mean I think it's a nice try, but God being rather unlimited in possibilities seems unlikely to fall under physics limits.

Glen Davidson

Sorry about my last post, I was sort of losing hope and being taken for an IDist is more that I can handle haha.

Re: how would anything be a necessity for God?

The laws would be a necessity, meaning that he (or she or it) must abide by a very precise set of rules or laws, so to put it another way, the essence of a life permitting universe (or any other universe for that matter) doesn't rely on god, but the laws themselves.

Re: First off, God doesn't need to make life.  I mean, why would he?

He wouldn't need to, but it doesn't matter. The fact that it's postulated that he did and that the way it needed to be done is so precisely defined implies he couldn't do what the bible says. That's the point

Re: Secondly, if for some uncertain reason God did make life, why must he be constrained by physical limits?  Just make life magic (like our "souls" are supposed to be), screw the limits

Because if he can break the limits of this universe, he should be able to break the limits of others. If he can brake the limits of a non life permitting universe (like one where the gravitational constant was 98 instead of 9.8) he should be able to overcome whatever keeps that universe from allowing life to form. But if that's the case, any universe would be potentially life permitting provided that god breaks the limits to allow life to form.
But that would imply that there's no real fine tuning, which is the initial premise in the argument.
With no FT premise, there's no god inference.

  
dazz



Posts: 247
Joined: Mar. 2015

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 12 2015,13:31   

Quote (NoName @ Mar. 12 2015,13:03)
I really think people are being far too harsh on our newest poster.
His mention of Euthyphro should have been enough to get the gist of his point.
It can be taken entirely as hypotheticals, with consequences devastating to any sort of fine-tuning hypothesis.  Either fine-tuning is not required, in which case the argument for a fine-tuner collapses, or fine-tuning is so tightly constrained as to be limit within which the tuner must operate, and that removes whatever strength the fine-tuning argument might appear to have.
One can present Euthyphro's dilemma without committing to a belief in an all-powerful deity nor to a belief in "objective ethics".
It may not be the best argument against the standard ID fine-tuning ploy, but it is one that is rarely if ever heard.  More weaponry is not to be scorned, even if one prefers to choose from a different armamentarium.

Thanks NoName.

Truth is, like Glen said, that they will just claim that god can do whatever he wants or "make it look" fine tuned so that we notice it and see the signals, like jesus on a bread toast.

I don't know

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 12 2015,13:36   

Quote
Truth is, like Glen said, that they will just claim that god can do whatever he wants


Also what I said.

I think the problem is that creationists show up from time to time and preface their real argument with soothing assurances that they accept science...

but...

Also, arguing with a believer about the nature of god just doesn't go anywhere.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
dazz



Posts: 247
Joined: Mar. 2015

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 12 2015,13:47   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Mar. 12 2015,13:36)
Quote
Truth is, like Glen said, that they will just claim that god can do whatever he wants


Also what I said.

I think the problem is that creationists show up from time to time and preface their real argument with soothing assurances that they accept science...

but...

Also, arguing with a believer about the nature of god just doesn't go anywhere.

Yeah, I know.

Even if the entire argument proves that FT severely limits what god can do, they will claim he can do anything.

  
KevinB



Posts: 525
Joined: April 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 12 2015,14:41   

Quote (JohnW @ Mar. 12 2015,13:12)
Quote (KevinB @ Mar. 12 2015,10:31)
For myself, I'm inclined to discard "fine-tuning" in favour of "auto-tuning"

You're saying god can't sing?

Since the Devil has all the best tunes, His repertoire is somewhat limited by His material.

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 12 2015,16:09   

Quote (dazz @ Mar. 12 2015,13:47)
Quote (midwifetoad @ Mar. 12 2015,13:36)
Quote
Truth is, like Glen said, that they will just claim that god can do whatever he wants


Also what I said.

I think the problem is that creationists show up from time to time and preface their real argument with soothing assurances that they accept science...

but...

Also, arguing with a believer about the nature of god just doesn't go anywhere.

Yeah, I know.

Even if the entire argument proves that FT severely limits what god can do, they will claim he can do anything.

By "god" you mean Harry Potter, right?

  
dazz



Posts: 247
Joined: Mar. 2015

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 12 2015,16:30   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Mar. 12 2015,16:09)
Quote (dazz @ Mar. 12 2015,13:47)
Quote (midwifetoad @ Mar. 12 2015,13:36)
 
Quote
Truth is, like Glen said, that they will just claim that god can do whatever he wants


Also what I said.

I think the problem is that creationists show up from time to time and preface their real argument with soothing assurances that they accept science...

but...

Also, arguing with a believer about the nature of god just doesn't go anywhere.

Yeah, I know.

Even if the entire argument proves that FT severely limits what god can do, they will claim he can do anything.

By "god" you mean Harry Potter, right?

You are the slowests guy around, aren't you?

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2015,00:05   

Quote (dazz @ Mar. 12 2015,16:30)
Quote (Doc Bill @ Mar. 12 2015,16:09)
Quote (dazz @ Mar. 12 2015,13:47)
 
Quote (midwifetoad @ Mar. 12 2015,13:36)
 
Quote
Truth is, like Glen said, that they will just claim that god can do whatever he wants


Also what I said.

I think the problem is that creationists show up from time to time and preface their real argument with soothing assurances that they accept science...

but...

Also, arguing with a believer about the nature of god just doesn't go anywhere.

Yeah, I know.

Even if the entire argument proves that FT severely limits what god can do, they will claim he can do anything.

By "god" you mean Harry Potter, right?

You are the slowests guy around, aren't you?

Apparently, the slowest guy around totally destroyed your argument using your own words.  

A puddle is fine tuned.  Did your magical entity you in your own freaking words design that puddle?

Time to flounce, Ditz!

  
Trubble



Posts: 20
Joined: May 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2015,00:12   

Seriously, Doc Bill, you might want to consider the possibility that you're just a little off base here.

  
The whole truth



Posts: 1554
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2015,03:24   

Quote (Trubble @ Mar. 12 2015,22:12)
Seriously, Doc Bill, you might want to consider the possibility that you're just a little off base here.

Yeah, and what's with the rush by some people here to jump on new commenters? I could understand it if the new commenter is an outright asshole but that's not the case with dazz or ArborealDescendent.

--------------
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
dazz



Posts: 247
Joined: Mar. 2015

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2015,07:37   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Mar. 13 2015,00:05)
Quote (dazz @ Mar. 12 2015,16:30)
Quote (Doc Bill @ Mar. 12 2015,16:09)
 
Quote (dazz @ Mar. 12 2015,13:47)
 
Quote (midwifetoad @ Mar. 12 2015,13:36)
   
Quote
Truth is, like Glen said, that they will just claim that god can do whatever he wants


Also what I said.

I think the problem is that creationists show up from time to time and preface their real argument with soothing assurances that they accept science...

but...

Also, arguing with a believer about the nature of god just doesn't go anywhere.

Yeah, I know.

Even if the entire argument proves that FT severely limits what god can do, they will claim he can do anything.

By "god" you mean Harry Potter, right?

You are the slowests guy around, aren't you?

Apparently, the slowest guy around totally destroyed your argument using your own words.  

A puddle is fine tuned.  Did your magical entity you in your own freaking words design that puddle?

Time to flounce, Ditz!

Destroy my argument? You don't even seem to understand logic.
You're attacking my premise "fine tuning is proof of god" when one doesn't need to prove premises in logic.

Of course you'll probably stop reading there and assume that I actually believe that premise is true, which is ridiculous because I've  said time and again that my intention is to prove that IF YOU ACCEPT THAT PREMISE AS TRUE, THEN WHAT FOLLOWS IS DEVASTATING FOR GOD.

If you don't get it this time, I won't bother clarifying again that I don't believe in a god and I don't think there's any fine tuning at all. It should be clear enough already, even for you

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2015,09:18   

In defence of everybody, this is a simple miscommunication.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2015,19:30   

Meaning what, exactly?

:-/

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 15 2015,22:18   

Meaning it's a ridiculous argument.

My point was that a god, Harry Potter, a teapot or my Aunt Sally were all equivalent "causes" for fine tuning, if one persists in the delusion that "fine tuning" is a thing.

However, fine tuning is a made up argument that has no basis but is promoted by creationists because they have little else to promote.

Fine tuning is only discussed because creationists never give up on an argument or, rather, assertion, however crazy or unsupported.  I think the Muggleverse is as valid as any proposition by a creationist.

So, my point is that one can't attribute a "fine tuning" of the universe, as it were, to any entity that excludes Harry Potter.

I just wish I had a wand and command of spells.  I would certainly grandus percentus my stock portfolio!

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 20 2015,13:23   



--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
The whole truth



Posts: 1554
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2015,20:37   

Check this out:

http://www.katu.com/politic....31.html

--------------
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 24 2015,20:59   

Quote (The whole truth @ Mar. 24 2015,18:37)
Check this out:

http://www.katu.com/politic....31.html

Just when I think the toons can't get any loonier.

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
JonF



Posts: 634
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2015,15:08   

And the response :
http://tinyurl.com/odchdzl....odchdzl

  
The whole truth



Posts: 1554
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2015,17:32   

Quote (JonF @ Mar. 25 2015,13:08)
And the response :
http://tinyurl.com/odchdzl....odchdzl

That put a smile on my face. :)

--------------
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
The whole truth



Posts: 1554
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2015,02:32   

Have you seen what's going on in Australia?

http://coo.fieldofscience.com/2015....to.html

Edited by The whole truth on April 04 2015,00:39

--------------
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2015,06:35   

Quote (The whole truth @ April 04 2015,02:32)
Have you seen what's going on in Australia?

http://coo.fieldofscience.com/2015.......to.html

I find it darkly humorous that countries which have looked down their noses at American Bible thumpers are suddenly at the forefront of boobosity.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Alan Fox



Posts: 1556
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2015,06:56   

Quote (midwifetoad @ April 04 2015,01:35)
 
Quote (The whole truth @ April 04 2015,02:32)
Have you seen what's going on in Australia?

http://coo.fieldofscience.com/2015.......to.html

I find it darkly humorous that countries which have looked down their noses at American Bible thumpers are suddenly at the forefront of boobosity.

Check the date on the post, guys!

  
Glen Davidson



Posts: 1100
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2015,07:23   

Quote (Alan Fox @ April 04 2015,06:56)
Quote (midwifetoad @ April 04 2015,01:35)
 
Quote (The whole truth @ April 04 2015,02:32)
Have you seen what's going on in Australia?

http://coo.fieldofscience.com/2015.......to.html

I find it darkly humorous that countries which have looked down their noses at American Bible thumpers are suddenly at the forefront of boobosity.

Check the date on the post, guys!

Check your date privilege.

Glen Davidson

--------------
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2015,11:13   

The best satire is indistinguishable from reality.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2015,15:19   

Quote (midwifetoad @ April 04 2015,09:13)
The best satire is indistinguishable from reality.

represented mathematically  by 1/Poe

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
The whole truth



Posts: 1554
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2015,15:39   

Quote (Alan Fox @ April 04 2015,04:56)
Quote (midwifetoad @ April 04 2015,01:35)
 
Quote (The whole truth @ April 04 2015,02:32)
Have you seen what's going on in Australia?

http://coo.fieldofscience.com/2015.......to.html

I find it darkly humorous that countries which have looked down their noses at American Bible thumpers are suddenly at the forefront of boobosity.

Check the date on the post, guys!

I knew the date of the article when I put the link here but I didn't want to reveal it upfront. :)

--------------
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 05 2015,15:04   

Seen in Glendalough, Co. Wicklow:



Source

--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 05 2015,18:03   

"Have you found Jesus?"

"Not yet! Are you sure this is where he fell in?"

  
Quack



Posts: 1961
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2015,02:30   

Quote (Henry J @ April 05 2015,18:03)
"Have you found Jesus?"

"Not yet! Are you sure this is where he fell in?"

Thanks for my first good laff today...

--------------
Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
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